About the internal genetic diversity in Iberia...

[Prince Carlo]

Some of the Iberian members have sworn that North Western Iberians are similar to other Iberians. So I've found this intra-spanish MDS plot by Dienekes with the 1000genomes samples.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o_6rmvEObIQ/Tvomu9yYb6I/AAAAAAAAEYg/lHfAu4nyQVo/s1600/1_2.png

Notice how Galicians appear to be genetically and racially distinct from the Iberian core groups. Now guess if Northern Portuguese are closer to Galicians or the guys from Madrid/Lisbon. :laugh2:

[aimar]

closer to galicians I think.
Is it?

[Prince Carlo]

closer to galicians I think.
Is it?

Yes my Portuguese friend. Also North Western Iberia is one the rainest part of Europe on par with Ireland.

http://norway4.wikispaces.com/file/view/climate_map_of_norway.jpg/180233955/climate_map_of_norway.jpg

The lighter pigmentation could be explained with natural selection and genetic isolation. Clearly North Western Iberians are distinct from the bulk of Spaniards and Portuguese.

[Peyrol]

Probabilist the stronger celtiberian heritage in the whole Peninsula.

[Prince Carlo]

Probabilist the stronger celtiberian heritage in the whole Peninsula.

They have more North Eastern European admix than other Iberians, but not much. They just don't cluster with other Iberians.

[Sikeliot]

Canarians are the ones who are most genetically distinct from Iberia, not northwestern Iberians from what it looks like.

[Prince Carlo]

Canarians are the ones who are most genetically distinct from Iberia, not northwestern Iberians from what it looks like.

:picard2:

There are only 2 Canarians to begin with, so they are not representative. Anyway Galicians are the most different after the Basque and the atlantic islanders.

[Lábaru]

I think you're making a big mistake interpreting this map. We are talking about a map of Spain only, where the distances between groups are small, but they have been magnified to highlight the slight differences.

Canaries Island are most different obviously, followed by the Basques, but even the Basques are already very close to the other Iberians, more than Canaries Island, the other groups are extremely similar.

We need understand that this same map in a continental European perspective would put these Iberians people in one place, practically the same point, with only canaries a little far and Basques nearby, of course not the difference that we can find for example with France or Italy.

[Prince Carlo]

Of couse the difference is small (~10%) but it is there. You can't deny it.

[Lábaru]

This map proves how important it was the Spanish reconquest, with their large armies through the centuries, gradually and slowly repopulating the lands North-South, the ancient lands of Castile, from Cantabria(North) to Andalucia(South) are exactly alike.

This map missing my neighbors Asturians, they are definitely a link between the micro changes on Basques-Cantabrian-Galician.

[Lábaru]

In fact with Asturias, Castilla y Leon, Aragon and Cantabria we have 65%-75% of the Northern Iberia.
http://locuraviajes.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/image47.png
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3zRrbYVKRGw/T6u0Dw0PhhI/AAAAAAAAArY/SRvp6uXcPgs/s1600/mapa_espana%5B1%5D.gif
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o_6rmvEObIQ/Tvomu9yYb6I/AAAAAAAAEYg/lHfAu4nyQVo/s1600/1_2.png

these groups of people come together with the center and south of the peninsula, 80% of the total Spain, imagine how far away are the Italians for example if we use the same scale of measurement of this map.

[Peyrol]

I think that the repopulation after the Reconquista created a quite homogeneous castillian population, btw.
(obviously excluding Catalogna).

[Prince Carlo]

Bla Bla Bla

Galicians are distinct and don't plot with the Iberian core groups. One can downplay this difference but it will still be there.

Of couse Northern Portuguese and perhaps the Asturians would fill the gap. We don't know for sure.

[Lábaru]

I think that the repopulation after the Reconquista created a quite homogeneous castillian population, btw.
(obviously excluding Catalogna).

Yes, obviously, but the Catalans are also very close to the Castilian core. From a European perspective Northern Italians and South French are the closest to Iberia, and if we used this scale I think would be huge distances.

[Lábaru]

Galicians are distinct and don't plot with the Iberian core groups. One can downplay this difference but it will still be there.

Of couse Northern Portuguese and perhaps the Asturians would fill the gap. We don't know for sure.

:) I understand that you have an agenda because the discussion you had in the thread about pigmentation but you must understand that we were not the Spanish who were in the discussion with you, your discussion was with other Europeans members (in fact, the study considered the Portuguese, not the Spanish.)

and now look at the map again, you can see the small triangle created between Galicia-Castilla Y León and Cantabria:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o_6rmvEObIQ/Tvomu9yYb6I/AAAAAAAAEYg/lHfAu4nyQVo/s1600/1_2.png

with other Spanish groups inside this little triangle, really the only ones that differ are Basques and a lot more the Canaries, the rest are basically a point fairly homogeneous.

[Lábaru]

Anyway I find this thread extremely interesting, look at the genetic similarity between Castile and Leon- Aragon and Cantabria and the rest and compare it with the map of the Castilian language expansion.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o_6rmvEObIQ/Tvomu9yYb6I/AAAAAAAAEYg/lHfAu4nyQVo/s1600/1_2.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Evoluci%C3%B3n_ling%C3%BC%C3%ADstica.gif

xD xD xD

[Catrau]

Some of the Iberian members have sworn that North Western Iberians are similar to other Iberians. So I've found this intra-spanish MDS plot by Dienekes with the 1000genomes samples.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o_6rmvEObIQ/Tvomu9yYb6I/AAAAAAAAEYg/lHfAu4nyQVo/s1600/1_2.png

Notice how Galicians appear to be genetically and racially distinct from the Iberian core groups. Now guess if Northern Portuguese are closer to Galicians or the guys from Madrid/Lisbon. :laugh2:

You think you are very smart.


Of couse the difference is small (~10%) but it is there. You can't deny it.

When did someone ever told you that we are perfectly equal. Do you really know anything about statistics or you are just trolling. Please tell us if that 10% difference makes us significantly different from north to south.

Can you read this one??
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/SPN_analy.jpg

Do you want me to send you another one with a 657 elements sample from north to south and east to west in Portugal?? Because that one has 14 pages. It says exactly the same. Do you want me to enlighten you with more sources?

Please shut up, you are annoying us with that Iberian fixation. You know nothing about us or about statistics.

[Prince Carlo]

Do you at least understand the difference between Haplotypes and genome-wide study? No. Because 82.5% R1b Catalans are autosomally much closer to 55% R1b Cantabrians than to 85% R1b Basque.

BTW let's wait for AlexdeLarge and perhaps Ibericus and Kadu who seem to be the only Iberians here who know something about genetics.

[Catrau]

Do you at least understand the difference between Haplotypes and genome-wide study? No. Because 82.5% R1b Catalans are autosomally much closer to 55% R1b Cantabrians than to 85% R1b Basque.

BTW let's wait for AlexdeLarge and perhaps Ibericus and Kadu who seem to be the only Iberians here who know something about genetics.

Those are just two different approaches of the same problem. Aren't they?
The study's conclusion is:

There are no statistical differences among Portuguese.

got it?!

Now, back off.

[Bridie]

I think that the repopulation after the Reconquista created a quite homogeneous castillian population, btw.
(obviously excluding Catalogna).The repopulation during and after the Reconquista created an amazingly homogeneous population throughout all of Spain. Specially considering the geographical size and the rugged orography of Spain.

Perhaps it wasn't all due to the repopulation but also to the fact that the people hadn't changed much since even before Roman conquest. In fact, where people changed most following the islamisation was in the north, where there was a flood of refugees, in different waves.

As for Catalonia (and indeed for Galicia too), any variation is within normal parameters of internal variability of Spaniards.

But if you are looking forward into magnifying small variations for whatever political agenda, I suggest that you wait for a genetic study comparing western and eastern Catalans. I assure you that there's a variation there.

FYI Spain is nothing like Italy. For a start, Spain is not an eastern country. The eastern character in Italy is well observable from south to north, regardless of other considerations about regional differences in Italy between south and north (and central).

Regards

[Bridie]

As for Catalonia (and indeed for Galicia too), any variation is within normal parameters of internal variability of Spaniards.

But if you are looking forward into magnifying small variations for whatever political agenda, I suggest that you wait for a genetic study comparing western and eastern Catalans. I assure you that there's a variation there.While there are no (yet) genetic studies to compare western and eastern Catalans, there are a couple for Basques where Guipuzcoans cluster closer to the peoples of the northwesternmost valleys of Navarre, and at the same time diverging from Alavans and Biscaians. The studies were produced by the UPV (University of the Basque Country) but are largely unknown. They can be found online (or they could be found at one point).

Other than that, the Basques as a whole cluster closer to Spaniards than to any other people.

[Damião de Góis]

The supposed disctincness of galicians doesn't show on 23andme. I share with some and they are together with the bunch. Similar to this:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/assets/2008/09/02/200890221.jpg

What northwest iberia has different is rain, and cool summers and mild winters. For example, what stands out for La Coruña is their summer temperatures:

http://oi46.tinypic.com/2rfsh92.jpg

[Catrau]

Listen, Capelli, I've already been rude with you because you are insisting in something most people around here know is insane and it's not the first time you do this. So, if I was too rude with you, I apologize. I hope that you stop that senseless crusade.

To finish this issue, as far as I'm concerned, I leave you with this incredible conclusion by:

Sandra Beleza, Leonor Gusmão, Alexandra Lopes, Cíntia Alves, Iva Gomes, Maria Giouzeli, Francesc Calafell, Angel Carracedo and António Amorim, (2006). Micro-Phylogeographic and Demographic History of Portuguese Male Lineages. University College London, Annals of Human Genetics 70,181–194

I quote:

“Although genetic differentiation follows a random distribution, and certainly some genes of genetic epidemiological interest are bound to show more stratification than Y lineages do, it is nonetheless true that the Y chromosome is the genomic region most sensitive to drift, and thus, with the largest opportunity for stratification. The low levels of differentiation for the Y chromosome in Portugal add additional confidence to the use of general Portuguese samples in case-control designs."

Iberia is indeed homogeneous.

[Peyrol]

Btw, the thread is heavy derailed from the main topic.

Closed. I'll re-open the discussion after the cleaning of all the OTs.

[Peyrol]

Thread reopened.

Let's return to discuss about iberian genetic.

[Gaijin]

Some of the Iberian members have sworn that North Western Iberians are similar to other Iberians. So I've found this intra-spanish MDS plot by Dienekes with the 1000genomes samples.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o_6rmvEObIQ/Tvomu9yYb6I/AAAAAAAAEYg/lHfAu4nyQVo/s1600/1_2.png

Notice how Galicians appear to be genetically and racially distinct from the Iberian core groups. Now guess if Northern Portuguese are closer to Galicians or the guys from Madrid/Lisbon. :laugh2:

You seem to have an inferiority complex towards Iberians, ever since you read GWAS study (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0048294?imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0048294.t001) on how people from Rome were darker in relation to people from Porto...
This is observable (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61653) in the aftermath of your subtle and atrocious way to vilify Iberia, but first and foremost, to isolate Galicia along with Northern Portugal from the rest of the peninsula, just to justify the pigmentation segment between the Polish and the Portuguese, found in the same study.
You even included a jumping smiley face in the end of this post.

People from overall Iberia are pretty much homogeneous and cluster altogether.

The image you just posted, just shows the proximity among people in Iberia.
If that map was extended to an European wide correlation, all those little dots would be in the same encirclement.

A new paper in Annals of Human Genetics studies Portuguese Y chromosomal distribution from several locations around the country, demonstrating relative homogeneity...

Annals of Human Genetics (online early)

Micro-Phylogeographic and Demographic History of Portuguese Male Lineages

Sandra Beleza et al. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00221.x/abstract;jsessionid=EACA72331D4F1D56FC56C66DEDA39E 05.d01t03)

Abstract

The clinal pattern observed for the distribution of Y-chromosome lineages in Europe is not always reflected at a geographically smaller scale. Six hundred and sixty-three male samples from the 18 administrative districts of Portugal were typed for 25 Y-chromosome biallelic and 15 microsatellite markers, in order to assess the degree of substructuring of male lineage distribution. Haplogroup frequency distributions, Analysis of Molecular Variance (AMOVA) and genetic distance analyses at both Y-SNP and Y-STR levels revealed a general genetic homogeneity of Portuguese sub-populations. The traditional division of the country in north, central and south, which is usually considered in studies addressing questions of the genetic variation distribution in Portugal, was not reflected in the Y-haplotype distribution. Instead, just one sub-region (Alentejo) stood out due to the presence of high diversity levels and a higher number of different lineages, at higher frequencies than in other regions. These results are reconciled with the historical evidence available, assuming that from prehistorical times down to the end of the medieval period this region harboured the most diverse groups of people and, because of economic depression, remained relatively isolated from recent homogenisation movements. The finding of a broadly homogeneous background for the Portuguese population has vast repercussions in forensic, epidemiological and association studies."

Genetic characterization of 52 autosomal SNPs in the Portuguese population
R. Pereiraa, b, M. Fondevilab, C. Phillipsb, A. Amorima, c, A. Carracedob and L. Gusmão 2008 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7517680800190X)

"For the Portuguese population no data were previously available for autosomal SNP genetic diversity and population structure. In this work we characterized 52 autosomal SNPs in the three regions from continental Portugal (North, Centre and South) using the SNPforID multiplex assay. Comparisons made between the three regions revealed genetic homogeneity of the studied SNPs throughout the country, allowing the use of a common database. Allele frequencies are presented for all markers as well as observed heterozygosity, discrimination power and genetic distances (FST) between regions. No significant deviations from Hardy–Weinberg equilibrium were detected. The high power of discrimination obtained in the Portuguese population confirms the utility of the 52-plex in identification studies."


Gene flow and genetic structure in the Galician population (NW Spain) according to Alu insertions
Tito A Varela, José Fariña, Lois Pérez Diéguez, and Rosa Lodeiro (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/9/79)

The frequency of the Alu insertions ACE, APOA1, D1, HS2.43, HS3.23 and HS4.65 in Galicia have intermediate values within the variability range of other populations in the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe. As regards the Alu elements Sb19.3, Sb19.10, Sb19.12, Ya5NBC221, Yb8NBC120 and Yb8NBC125, less population information exists within their geographical surroundings, although what is known makes it possible to deduce that for the first five, the Galician population has values that are slightly above the average. The exception is Yb8NBC125, for which the lowest values known to date in Europe were recorded in Galicia. These results may be interpreted as evidence that Galicia shares the genetic homogeneity of Iberian and European populations, and it is most likely that when the number of populations typed for the Alu insertion Yb8NBC125 increases, the Galician population will be included within the European variability range, as is the case with the other Alu elements. Nevertheless, it is important to note that as a result of its geographic position, the Galician population represents a 'cul-de-sac' in terms of the historical dynamics of populations in the peninsula, which justifies a certain degree of difference with respect to other genetic markers [[24-27], amongst others].


The correct title ought to be...
About the genetic homogeneity in Iberia...

[Damião de Góis]

Anyway, let's look at northwest iberia from an historical point of view. What they have different is this:

http://files.giltradutor.webnode.com.br/200000144-8efe58ff84/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.png

There were no Gallaeci in other parts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Hispania_418_AD.PNG/600px-Hispania_418_AD.PNG

Brief Suebi kingdom.

Everything else it's shared with the rest: roman, visigoth and moor periods. Invasions didn't change much the local peoples anyway and the Gallaeci were related to other local groups.

[Peyrol]

Anyway, the iberian genetic is totally far from ''italian'' one...Iberian peninsula show a relatively homogeneity, while Italy has great divisions not only in the north/south but also from one region to another (see Tuscany).

[Peyrol]

For the discussion about Italy, i created this topic

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62317

Keep this discussion about Iberian genetic.

[Prince Carlo]

@Alex Delarge the Spanish samples used in this study are from the POPRES database and come from Madrid and Barcellona. So no Galicians there.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/assets/2008/09/02/200890221.jpg

You can see their origin in this study which uses the same samples.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/193/laoplot02qp5.jpg

EDIT: I don't know which samples are in the 23andme Database, but the plot posted by me uses the 1000Genomes samples. If you don't like it, you should contact them.

[Bridie]

Anyway, the iberian genetic is totally far from ''italian'' one...Iberian peninsula show a relatively homogeneity, while Italy has great divisions not only in the north/south but also from one region to another (see Tuscany).In the plot, the vast majority of the Italian samples appear to sit comfortably with the samples of other eastern countries. But a few appear to move away from the main Italian and into the western side, getting more or less close to the Spanish samples (eastern Spanish?) and, to less of an extent, to the French (southeastern French?).

Where would you say that those Italian samples come from? (I have my own suspicions about what they could be)

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/assets/2008/09/02/200890221.jpg

Edit: I don't mean the samples that lie south of the Spanish, on the left bottom of the plot. Those are likely Sardinians.

[Ira di Dio]

But a few appear to move away from the main Italian and into the western side, getting more or less close to the Spanish samples (eastern Spanish?) and, to less of an extent, to the French (southeastern French?).
The only real overlap of those Italian individuals (obviously Northern Italians) is with some Swiss (probably Ticinese). And the French seem actually closer than the Iberians, as a few of them overlap with us. Unlike any Iberian.

[Prince Carlo]

The only real overlap of those Italian individuals (obviously Northern Italians) is with some Swiss (probably Ticinese). And the French seem actually closer than the Iberians, as a few of them overlap with us. Unlike any Iberian.

Catalans/Aragonese overlap with Italians a lot, mostly because of the common French like types.

[Bridie]

The only real overlap of those Italian individuals (obviously Northern Italians) is with some Swiss (probably Ticinese). And the French seem actually closer than the Iberians, as a few of them overlap with us. Unlike any Iberian.I don't mean those, who are too few to actually notice and also they don't move away from the eastern zone.

I shouldn't need to draw a circle around them.

Also, when I asked 'where' they would be from I expected something more specific and elaborated than just 'north' or 'south'.

[Albion]

Yes my Portuguese friend. Also North Western Iberia is one the rainest part of Europe on par with Ireland.

http://norway4.wikispaces.com/file/view/climate_map_of_norway.jpg/180233955/climate_map_of_norway.jpg

The lighter pigmentation could be explained with natural selection and genetic isolation. Clearly North Western Iberians are distinct from the bulk of Spaniards and Portuguese.

I don't think rain influences natural selection too much. And those areas in purple look to have more rain than Galicia.

[Damião de Góis]

@Alex Delarge the Spanish samples used in this study are from the POPRES database and come from Madrid and Barcellona. So no Galicians there.


No Galicians in Madrid and Barcelona? That's a funny one.

You should ask Falkata where he lives, and where he is from.



EDIT: I don't know which samples are in the 23andme Database, but the plot posted by me uses the 1000Genomes samples. If you don't like it, you should contact them.

In the 23andme database there are 23andme costumers, which include galicians. I liked the dodecad plot very much actually.

[Lábaru]

The only real overlap of those Italian individuals (obviously Northern Italians) is with some Swiss (probably Ticinese). And the French seem actually closer than the Iberians, as a few of them overlap with us. Unlike any Iberian.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg855/scaled.php?server=855&filename=76917781.png&res=medium
http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

But if you are looking forward into magnifying small variations for whatever political agenda, I suggest that you wait for a genetic study comparing western and eastern Catalans. I assure you that there's a variation there.

Very likely. I've always believed that major dialectal varieties can generally be associated to genetic variation, specially if those different varieties are mainly based on repopulation patterns.

However, I almost never rely way too much on all these studies, because I have my doubts regarding their methods. I mean, how would they really know if a Western Catalan is really one? I sincerely doubt they'd carry out a study of this kind after being sure first that the sample is from someone who not only reports himself as being so, but also can prove it somehow: both surnames clearly Western, a family history recorded in the area, etc. Hard to see these things, tbh.

[Prince Carlo]

No Galicians in Madrid and Barcelona? That's a funny one.

You should ask Falkata where he lives, and where he is from.

Also see how the Catalans don't plot with the Castillians, just like in the Dodecad plot I've posted. One can only guess where the Galicians would plot.


In the 23andme database there are 23andme costumers, which include galicians. I liked the dodecad plot very much actually.

I've never seen such samples being used in Peer-Reviewed studies unlike the 1000Genomes samples.

[Ira di Dio]

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg855/scaled.php?server=855&filename=76917781.png&res=medium
I've read that the map taken from 23andme was made by a Spanish guy (what a surprise would it be!) and it is actually including also central Italians in the "North Italian" cluster, that anyway is wider than that.


Also, when I asked 'where' they would be from I expected something more specific and elaborated than just 'north' or 'south'.
Do you think I made that plot?

[Lábaru]

I've read that the map taken from 23andme was made by a Spanish guy (what a surprise would it be!) and it is actually including also central Italians in the "North Italian" cluster, that anyway is wider than that.


you are a little paranoid
http://nextnature.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/genetic_map_of_europe_530.jpg
http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/306-the-genetic-map-of-europe

Spain and the Spanish have no hidden agenda, I do not understand why you take it on this way.

[Hesperión]

Very likely. I've always believed that major dialectal varieties can generally be associated to genetic variation, specially if those different varieties are mainly based on repopulation patterns. That's fringe thinking.


However, I almost never rely way too much on all these studies, because I have my doubts regarding their methods. I mean, how would they really know if a Western Catalan is really one? I sincerely doubt they'd carry out a study of this kind after being sure first that the sample is from someone who not only reports himself as being so, but also can prove it somehow: both surnames clearly Western, a family history recorded in the area, etc. Hard to see these things, tbh.Not all genetic studies have been strict as to assuring ascendancy. But some have been so. Usually taking samples from more or less isolated populations, and self-reported ascendancy which, in the case of semi-isolated populations, great-grandparents or even grandparents may be enough.

So it is possible.

[Hesperión]

I've read that the map taken from 23andme was made by a Spanish guy (what a surprise would it be!) and it is actually including also central Italians in the "North Italian" cluster, that anyway is wider than that.Probably. And it's also probable that it's part of the lizard-men conspiracy to take over Italy.

I'd look under my bed tonight before falling into a sleep from which you might never wake up.


Do you think I made that plot?All I asked was "speculate". You might not be familiar with that word.

[Ira di Dio]

you are a little paranoid
http://nextnature.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/genetic_map_of_europe_530.jpg
And you are a little of a liar, because it's a fact that some of those are not Northern Italians at all.


Spain and the Spanish have no hidden agenda, I do not understand why you take it on this way.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahha ahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha You are right it's not hidden, in fact it is very apparent. :thumb001:

[Lábaru]

And you are a little of a liar, because it's a fact that some of those are not Northern Italians at all.


And? there are not North Spanish, Cantabria, Asturias,Galicia Navarra, Aragón ect... the fact is that all the genetic maps of Europe are very similar, like it or not, it seems that Spain's position is a problem for a few of Italian, why?

....you guys do not seem to have problems with the Greece or France, why this obsession with Spain? what is your fear?

[Ira di Dio]

And? there are not North Spanish, Cantabria, Asturias,Galicia Navarra, Aragón ect... the fact is that all the genetic maps of Europe are very similar, like it or not, it seems that Spain's position is a problem for a few of Italian, why?
Probably the problem arise when some Iberian tries to pass for Northern Italians people who aren't. The French and the Greeks don't seem so hell bent on it like you guys are, why? What is your fear?


....you guys do not seem to have problems with the Greece or France, why this obsession with Spain?
It's a very good question that you should ask yourself first. :thumb001:

[Lábaru]

Probably the problem arise when some Iberian tries to pass for Northern Italians people who aren't. The French and the Greeks don't seem so hell bent on it like you guys are, why? What is your fear?

what you mean? Do people in northern Italy are special? let me guess, are Germanic, right? Central Italy is predominantly Mediterranean and North Italy Germanic, right? maybe that's why the northern Italian fit with the Spanish, because like it or not in the genes of the Iberians there are a lot Atlantic-baltic contribution.

End of the history, or you have a new problem?

[Lábaru]

It's a very good question that you should ask yourself first. :thumb001:

no, I ask you, the Spanish do not we open threads about the genetics of Italy or we question their results, we have no problems with it.

[Hesperión]

Probably the problem arise when some Iberian tries to pass for Northern Italians people who aren't.You are confused.

The fact that a few Italian samples lie more into the western side of the plot than the rest of their more easterner Italian fellow countrymen doesn't mean that they are like the Spanish. Only that they show more affinities with western peoples.

If they are northern Italians, or the result of Spanish domination in Italy, we do not know do we?

[Ira di Dio]

what you mean? Do people in northern Italy are special? let me guess, are Germanic, right? Central Italy is predominantly Mediterranean and North Italy Germanic, right?
LOL the "North Italy=Germanic" card, I should have seen it coming :rolleyes:... You and your pals are like those niggers playing the race card to trump every objective discussion. There is a very objective genetic diversity within Italy that is not comparable to the genetic diversity within Spain, like it or not.


maybe that's why the northern Italian fit with the Spanish, because like it or not in the genes of the Iberians there are a lot Atlantic-baltic contribution.
Who the fuck cares about the (many) contributions to the Iberian genepool, I wouldn't even be in this thread if some Spanish dude wasn't so obsessed by the Italians to comment on them position on a PCA plot.


The fact that a few Italian samples lie more into the western side of the plot than the rest of their more easterner Italian fellow countrymen doesn't mean that they are like the Spanish.
That's the funniest shit I've ever read. Where I come from people aen't exactly killing themselves to be "like the Spanish". LOL

[Lábaru]

you are a coward who does not want to admit the obvious.

[Lábaru]

Here's another table with Northern Italians, center Italian, Tuscanos and southern Italians.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGR2ZWRoQ0VaWTc0dlV1cHh4ZUNJR UE#gid=17

in both Spanish and north Italian major component is the atlantic-Baltid, found in higher amounts in Spain but I guess that is the cause of the similarity between the Spanish and North Italian.

so can you tell me what is wrong with this maps in your opinion?

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg855/scaled.php?server=855&filename=76917781.png&res=medium
http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

are the work of a Spanish conspiracy?

[Ira di Dio]

Here's another table with Northern Italians, center Italian, Tuscanos and southern Italians.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGR2ZWRoQ0VaWTc0dlV1cHh4ZUNJR UE#gid=17

in both Spanish and north Italian major component is the atlantic-Baltid, found in higher amounts in Spain but I guess that is the cause of the similarity between the Spanish and North Italian.

so can you tell me what is wrong with this maps in your opinion?

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg855/scaled.php?server=855&filename=76917781.png&res=medium
http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

are the work of a Spanish conspiracy?
I've already told you that the hand made drawings (made by a Spaniard) on the plot taken from 23andme are calling "Northern Italians" some people who in fact are not genetically Northern Italian. This is the only exception I was taking. Then I don't know if the "Northern Italians" in the other plot are Northern Italians (for the sake of your nerves let us assume they are) while the chart has a grand total of only 5 (five) Northern Italian contributors and the others (11 individuals), to the best of my knowledge, are taken from a sample collected in Bergamo (about 50 km from Milan) and are the same used also by the 23andme's plot. No problem on this. BTW nice to see that actually you are into the genetics of Italy. ;)

[Lábaru]

I've already told you that the hand made drawings (made by a Spaniard) on the plot taken from 23andme are calling "Northern Italians" some people who in fact are not genetically Northern Italian. This is the only exception I was taking. Then I don't know if the "Northern Italians" in the other plot are Northern Italians (for the sake of your nerves let us assume they are) while the chart has a grand total of only 5 (five) Northern Italian contributors and the others (11 individuals), to the best of my knowledge, are taken from a sample collected in Bergamo (about 50 km from Milan) and are the same used also by the 23andme's plot. No problem on this. BTW nice to see that actually you are into the genetics of Italy. ;)

:confused::confused::confused: then the problem is that you think that all samples of northern Italy are actually immigrants from the South? and that all this is a Spanish conspiracy?

[Ira di Dio]

I've already told you that the hand made drawings (made by a Spaniard) on the plot taken from 23andme are calling "Northern Italians" some people who in fact are not genetically Northern Italian. This is the only exception I was taking. Then I don't know if the "Northern Italians" in the other plot are Northern Italians (for the sake of your nerves let us assume they are) while the chart has a grand total of only 5 (five) Northern Italian contributors and the others (11 individuals), to the best of my knowledge, are taken from a sample collected in Bergamo (about 50 km from Milan) and are the same used also by the 23andme's plot. No problem on this.


:confused::confused::confused: then the problem is that you think that all samples of northern Italy are actually immigrants from the South? and that all this is a Spanish conspiracy?
Is it my English or is he dumb? You guys decide. ;) Bye

[Lábaru]

Is it my English or is he dumb? You guys decide. ;) Bye


I've already told you that the hand made drawings (made by a Spaniard) on the plot taken from 23andme are calling "Northern Italians" some people who in fact are not genetically Northern Italian. This is the only exception I was taking. Then I don't know if the "Northern Italians" in the other plot are Northern Italians (for the sake of your nerves let us assume they are) while the chart has a grand total of only 5 (five) Northern Italian contributors and the others (11 individuals), to the best of my knowledge, are taken from a sample collected in Bergamo (about 50 km from Milan) and are the same used also by the 23andme's plot. No problem on this. BTW nice to see that actually you are into the genetics of Italy. ;)

Again, a coward unable to accept his own words, honestly I do not understand your obsession with Spain, bye.

[Hesperión]

That's the funniest shit I've ever read.If that's the case then your life must be terribly boring or you've never read a comedy.


Where I come from people aen't exactly killing themselves to be "like the Spanish". LOLWhy do I have the feeling that you are understanding what I wrote in its exact opposite sense?

Do you suffer from some type of extreme dyslexia per chance?

I have to know it. I wouldn't want to abuse someone who has some disability. It doesn't look good. :)

[Ira di Dio]

Why do I have the feeling that you are understanding what I wrote in its exact opposite sense?
Why do I have the feeling that there is - no offense meant for those who aren't - a disproportionate amount of retarded people in Spain?

Slowly.

I wrote: "Probably the problem arise when some Iberian tries to pass for Northern Italians people who aren't"

This.

... At which you responded:

"You are confused."

Which admittedly confused me even more. :confused:

... As you continued: "The fact that a few Italian samples lie more into the western side of the plot than the rest of their more easterner Italian fellow countrymen doesn't mean that they are like the Spanish. Only that they show more affinities with western peoples"

... At which I responded accordingly, if in the half-joking manner that you have just quoted. And so on.

Now I am very curious so please just clear it up for me and I'll leave at your frankly mongolid discussions: how, in the first place, was your reply relevant in respect to what I was talking about (i.e. that some Spanish guy had drawn up a "wrong" - at best - Northern Italian cluster in the 23andme genetic plot)?

[Damião de Góis]

Also see how the Catalans don't plot with the Castillians, just like in the Dodecad plot I've posted. One can only guess where the Galicians would plot.

Didn't you say these were the same?

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/assets/2008/09/02/200890221.jpg


I've never seen such samples being used in Peer-Reviewed studies unlike the 1000Genomes samples.

Samples on 23andme are different because you can see information on each person if they make it public. A study that uses "Galicians" could be less reliable because they can be sampling people called Gutierrez that live in Vigo. Same with those samples from Madrid or Barcelona.. we have no idea what their ancestry is. Only that they live in Barcelona or Madrid.

[Prince Carlo]

Didn't you say these were the same?

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/assets/2008/09/02/200890221.jpg

I was talking about the plot in the first post of this thread.


Samples on 23andme are different because you can see information on each person if they make it public. A study that uses "Galicians" could be less reliable because they can be sampling people called Gutierrez that live in Vigo. Same with those samples from Madrid or Barcelona.. we have no idea what their ancestry is. Only that they live in Barcelona or Madrid.

I don't think so. Moreover 1000Genomes samples are now used in many Peer-Reviewed studies, so they are quite correct and representative.

[Hesperión]

Why do I have the feeling that there is - no offense meant for those who aren't - a disproportionate amount of retarded people in Spain?No offense taken. I know that vulgar, uncouth, uneducated people can't do any better.


Slowly.Yet the problem is that you've been pretty slow so far and we can't communicate. But be my guest.


I wrote: "Probably the problem arise when some Iberian tries to pass for Northern Italians people who aren't"

This.

... At which you responded:

"You are confused."

Which admittedly confused me even more. :confused:It's good that you admit it. It's a step forward in the right direction to help you with your problems.

Unfortunately I'm not qualified to treat people with symptoms that are as bad as yours.


... As you continued: "The fact that a few Italian samples lie more into the western side of the plot than the rest of their more easterner Italian fellow countrymen doesn't mean that they are like the Spanish. Only that they show more affinities with western peoples"

... At which I responded accordingly, if in the half-joking manner that you have just quoted. And so on.I'd suggest that you print this http://theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1160685&postcount=49 and this http://theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1160812&postcount=54 and take it to a primary education school teacher to explain it to you.

Be brave. Don't be afraid of the little kids in the classroom laughing when you do. It's for your better future.

[Damião de Góis]

I was talking about the plot in the first post of this thread.

I was replying to "see how catalans don't plot with castillians", because in this post you said those samples were the same:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1158526&postcount=30



I don't think so. Moreover 1000Genomes samples are now used in many Peer-Reviewed studies, so they are quite correct and representative.

Ok... so according to you the notion that iberia is homogeneous is a myth after all? That's an interesting opinion...

Anyway, more information about this:

http://dodecad.blogspot.pt/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-iberia-france-italy.html

And have you checked how these samples (don't) differ from each other?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2

[Prince Carlo]

I was replying to "see how catalans don't plot with castillians", because in this post you said those samples were the same:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1158526&postcount=30

The samples used in the Dodecad map are from 1000genomes, while the other 2 studies uses the samples from the POPRES database.


Ok... so according to you the notion that iberia is homogeneous is a myth after all? That's an interesting opinion...

Anyway, more information about this:

http://dodecad.blogspot.pt/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-iberia-france-italy.html

And have you checked how these samples (don't) differ from each other?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2

Dude these softwares like the oracle don't measure the real genetic distance but just compute the difference between the components. On the Dodecad Oracle the Portuguese and most Spaniards are closer to Canarians than to Pais Vasco.

[Hesperión]

So Capelli, what exactly would be your point?

Assuming that you have one.

[Damião de Góis]

The samples used in the Dodecad map are from 1000genomes, while the other 2 studies uses the samples from the POPRES database.

Yes if you read again what i said, i meant the other two studies.


Dude these softwares like the oracle don't measure the real genetic distance but just compute the difference between the components. On the Dodecad Oracle the Portuguese and most Spaniards are closer to Canarians than to Pais Vasco.

So if Dodecad doesn't count for anything, why use their plot in the start of this thread? It was probably done in the same way.

[Prince Carlo]

So if Dodecad doesn't count for anything, why use their plot in the start of this thread? It was probably done in the same way.

I don't think that you understand how such calculator really works. But still according to that link Portuguese and Galicians are much closer to Canarians than to other Iberians, which does not make any sense.


Yes if you read again what i said, i meant the other two studies.

There is an overlap between the 2 populations, but of course the medians are separated just like in the Dodecad plot.

[Damião de Góis]

I don't think that you understand how such calculator really works. But still according to that link Portuguese and Galicians are much closer to Canarians than to other Iberians, which does not make any sense.


How did you conclude that by looking at these two links?

http://dodecad.blogspot.pt/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-iberia-france-italy.html

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

[Prince Carlo]

How did you conclude that by looking at these two links?

Portuguese, Galicians and Canarians are all in the 9th cluster, while other Iberian groups are also in the 6th, 7th, 8th and 10th clusters.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hUvuuWcLzA0/TxSoiQ1vTKI/AAAAAAAAAsc/4CLsIXGSLz0/s1600/galore_iberia_france_italy_balkans_anatolia_jews.p ng

[Damião de Góis]

Portuguese, Galicians and Canarians are all in the 9th cluster, while other Iberian groups are also in the 6th, 7th, 8th and 10th clusters.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hUvuuWcLzA0/TxSoiQ1vTKI/AAAAAAAAAsc/4CLsIXGSLz0/s1600/galore_iberia_france_italy_balkans_anatolia_jews.p ng

As are most of the Spanish_D sample, Castilla y Leon, and Extremadura. The Canarians are two and don't look that different from iberians, looking at their K12b.