Same-sex marriage debates in Turkey

[Kemalisté]

For those who do not know; there is a commission formed by 4 parties in the parliament to write a new democratic constitution which will replace the current one that was written after the military coup in 1980.

Each party is represented by 3 members equally. Those parties are Justice and Development Party (AKP), Republican People's Party (CHP), Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) and Peace and Democracy Party (BDP). The approval of each party is required for a term to pass in the commission.

While on the discussion about the marriage term recently, CHP and BDP proposed that '' Everyone has the right to marry and found a family ''. AKP and MHP opposed, citing that it would lead to same-sex marriage. CHP's representer answered that '' If we are to write a new constitution, we should think of 20-30 years forward '', adding that they should open up Turkey's future.

What do you think about same-sex marriage ? should it be legalized ? can it be legalized ? the recent progresses in France and some states in America and Obama's speech could be influential for us as well ?

[iNird]

I honestly don't care. I think individuals should have the right to choose for themselves and if they want to marry someone of the same sex then it is not for me or the government to decide if that is permissible.

[Mraz]

No, the purpose of mariage is creating a family.
1 man + 1 woman = baby
1 man + 1 man = STD

[Sikeliot]

No, the purpose of mariage is creating a family.

Then should heterosexual couples with no intention of having children not be allowed to marry? Should women who are at menopause age or above not be able to marry since they can't give birth anymore?

[Mraz]

Then should heterosexual couples with no intention of having children not be allowed to marry? Should women who are at menopause age or above not be able to marry since they can't give birth anymore?

Those people have right to marry since they have this right since the world exists. Gays want this right for fashion purposes and to show that they aren't deviants.

[Sikeliot]

Those people have right to marry since they have this right since the world exists. Gays want this right for fashion purposes and to show that they aren't deviants.

Then you're being hypocritical since you just said the point of marriage is to have children, but you'd give marriage to some people who aren't planning to have children and not to another group who also doesn't plan to have children.

So you should find a new rationalization for not allowing gays and lesbians to marry, since you've demonstrated your rule about children versus not has exceptions.

[Kemalisté]

Then should heterosexual couples with no intention of having children not be allowed to marry? Should women who are at menopause age or above not be able to marry since they can't give birth anymore?

+ couples who are unable to have a children due to some hormonical problems and they go for test-tube baby. Same goes for homosexual couples as well, they can have adopted children.

[Mraz]

Then you're being hypocritical since you just said the point of marriage is to have children, but you'd give marriage to some people who aren't planning to have children and not to another group who also doesn't plan to have children.

So you should find a new rationalization for not allowing gays and lesbians to marry, since you've demonstrated your rule about children versus not has exceptions.

I'm not hypocrite, a man and a woman can make a children, I don't care if they are sterile, too old,....The fact is that biologicaly they are compatible and that laws allow it.

2 gays can't do nothing, they just believe because they marry that they'd become normal people.

[Pecheneg]

No, the purpose of mariage is creating a family.

Exactly.
It would be disgusting to see some fag couples with hapless adopted baby.

[Sikeliot]

I'm not hypocrite, a man and a woman can make a children, I don't care if they are sterile, too old,....The fact is that biologicaly they are compatible and that laws allow it.

2 gays can't do nothing, they just believe because they marry that they'd become normal people.

But if they're not going to have a child, then why should they be allowed to marry if the idea is that the purpose of marriage is to produce a child? No child will result if the couple is infertile or elderly.

[Kemalisté]

This topic might also be functioning as a litmus to expose narrow-minded people on this forum.

[Mraz]

But if they're not going to have a child, then why should they be allowed to marry if the idea is that the purpose of marriage is to produce a child? No child will result if the couple is infertile or elderly.

You're playing with words...

The rule is 2 000 000 000 of fags = impossible to make 1 children.
1 000 000 000 females + 1 000 000 000 males = at least 1 children.

That's it.

[Sikeliot]

I am gay myself, but I don't expect everyone to agree to gay and lesbian marriages. But at the least I expect people to be consistent about why they oppose it. If you're genuinely prejudiced and have no rational reasons to oppose it other than that you don't like it, then just admit it and you'd have much more of my respect and that of many others than if you try to hold onto hypocritical, or biased, rationalizations that grant exceptions to some people but not others.

[Sikeliot]

You're playing with words...

The rule is 2 000 000 000 of fags = impossible to make 1 children.
1 000 000 000 females + 1 000 000 000 males = at least 1 children.

That's it.

Your word choice is very indicative of your biases.

[Kemalisté]

I am gay myself, but I don't expect everyone to agree to gay and lesbian marriages. But at the least I expect people to be consistent about why they oppose it. If you're genuinely prejudiced and have no rational reasons to oppose it other than that you don't like it, then just admit it and you'd have much more of my respect and that of many others than if you try to hold onto hypocritical, or biased, rationalizations that grant exceptions to some people but not others.

How can you tolerate people who are opposed to your natural rights ? you should advocate your freedom to the death.

[Kemalisté]

Apparently there's no one opposed to this natural right except a self-admitted reactionary and a fake steppe warrior so far.

[Sikeliot]

How can you tolerate people who are opposed to your natural rights ? you should advocate your freedom to the death.

Because in this country we are told that the First Amendment grants people not only the right to free speech, but with that, the right to be ignorant. ;)

[Kemalisté]

Because in this country we are told that the First Amendment grants people not only the right to free speech, but with that, the right to be ignorant. ;)

There's no such a right to restrict one's right. There's no freedom of restricting freedom.

[Sikeliot]

There's no such a right to restrict one's right. There's no freedom of restricting freedom.

Oh I know. I don't care what people's personal opinions are, so long as they don't infringe on my rights. I don't consider telling me you disapprove of gay marriage to be infringing on my rights. Now if you told me that you are going to, based on your beliefs, do everything you can to stop me from being able to marry, that is entirely different.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Damn no.

[Hayalet]

Heterosexuality is, in one word, everything; it's the reason any human being is alive. And the whole notion of marriage is just a derivative of it.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, is no more than erotic fetishism and has no relevance to be recognized by the state.

[Kemalisté]

Oh I know. I don't care what people's personal opinions are, so long as they don't infringe on my rights. I don't consider telling me you disapprove of gay marriage to be infringing on my rights. Now if you told me that you are going to, based on your beliefs, do everything you can to stop me from being able to marry, that is entirely different.

Well, there were gay marriage referendums in some states during the election, so those people had a direct intervention in your rights voting against it. How can I respect it ? an individual's natural freedom can not be left to somebody else's decision. The state should unconditionally recognize this right.

You are too pacifist and weak. There's no other way to gain your rights without being a radical militant. Because the rights are not given, but they are taken.

[Kemalisté]

Heterosexuality is, in one word, everything; it's the reason any human being is alive. And the whole notion of marriage is just a derivative of it.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, is no more than erotic fetishism and has no relevance to be recognized by the state.

Fetishism ? there are lots of people born with that kind of hormonical feelings. It's a biological fact, can not be denied.

[Blackout]

GOD made Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve! :rofl_002:

[Anatolian Eagle]

GOD made Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve! :rofl_002:

That phrase always comes to my mind whenever I see such discussions :D

[Kemalisté]

GOD made Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve! :rofl_002:

I don't think that's a scientifical argument. Where's the proof that god exists in the first place ? and where's the proof that what's written in the books are completely true ?

[Ayazid]

That sounds like a pretty bold move on the part of the CHP, in a conservative country like Turkey. I wonder what would Atatürk say about this issue.

[Incal]

No, the purpose of mariage is creating a family.


I thought it was love... But I guess I'm old fashioned.

[Pallantides]

I think so.

[Blackout]

I don't think that's a scientifical argument. Where's the proof that god exists in the first place ? and where's the proof that what's written in the books are completely true ?

By the same token it cannot be proven scientifically that there is no God. Even a child knows that when you push two north sided (or two south sided) magnets together, it does not work! But seriously speaking, I acknowledge some people genuinely suffer from this problem. Let's be honest, it's not natural. Such people should be offered help to overcome this disease...


I thought it was love... But I guess I'm old fashioned.

If there's one thing the film 'WaterWorld' taught us, it is a combination of both.

[Kemalisté]

That sounds like a pretty bold move on the part of the CHP, in a conservative country like Turkey. I wonder what would Atatürk say about this issue.

Homosexualism was hardly a taboo in the Ottoman society, actually. You can see such stories in the dramatic history of the Ottoman Empire, taken as a subject in the classical literature, lots of rumors in the palace that even some Sultans were gay. Officially it was legalized in 1858 but the reason that time is picked is that's when the Ottoman Empire had its first written constitution which did not specify anything about homosexualism, so there's no much infos about the previous period but I doubt it was ever a crime.

So, what I point out is Turkey has a long-term experience with homosexuality, although still a significant part of the conservative population is opposed to it. But it's not like all of them are, for example, a famous gay fashion designer Cemil Ipekci is known with his religious conservative and pro-government stance. And not to forget transsexual Bülent Ersoy who has a big popularity among people and she was even given the title '' Diva of the classical music ''.

CHP should keep up its stance, because it's not impossible and we know that, we can succeed. Hopefully Turkey will be a great pioneer in this part of the world.

[Kemalisté]

By the same token it cannot be proven scientifically that there is no God. Even a child knows that when you push two north sided (or two south sided) magnets together, it does not work! But seriously speaking, I acknowledge some people genuinely suffer from this problem. Let's be honest, it's not natural. Such people should be offered help to overcome this disease...

Unexistence is not something that can be proven. Can you prove that the flying spaghetti monster does not exist ? I don't think so. Now don't be silly and recognize the natural rights of the homosexual people. Those who are opposed to it will be remembered with shame and disgrace in the future just like the ones who used to insist on the view that the world is a flat in the Middle Age.

[Kemalisté]

I wonder what would Atatürk say about this issue.

Probably not negative, considering that he never thought of banning homosexuality. I don't know about same-sex marriage, the period he lived in should also be taken into consideration, but I think a rationalist and positivist leader like him could hardly be that narrow-minded to oppose that.

[Hurrem sultana]

I am for! :D i want ot marry my long term partner :D

[morski]

I am for! :D i want ot marry my long term partner :D

I want to marry you both.:D

[StonyArabia]

Well I have nothing against anyone sexual orientation but I believe sexuality should be private affair, and the government has no rules on it. The thing about sex marriages, well there is no point in it. Hey if you like BDSM, Homosexuality, and any other sex that's out of the norm, go at it.

I don't like it when sexuality is becomes part of government affairs. I am not really fan of homosexuality, since I believe it out of the norm so no.

[Kemalisté]

Well I have nothing against anyone sexual orientation but I believe sexuality should be private affair, and the government has no rules on it. The thing about sex marriages, well there is no point in it. Hey if you like BDSM, Homosexuality, and any other sex that's out of the norm, go at it.

I don't like it when sexuality is becomes part of government affairs. I am not really fan of homosexuality, since I believe it out of the norm so no.

BDSM is about violence, the state has no right to intervene in the decision of two conscious people.

[Hurrem sultana]

I want to marry you both.:D

I think that too,is forbidden :D ahh:mad:

[Alenka]

I am for! :D i want ot marry my long term partner :D
I agree, marriage is best for the two of us :D

[Hurrem sultana]

I agree, marriage is best for the two of us :D

:love:

[Blackout]

Unexistence is not something that can be proven. Can you prove that the flying spaghetti monster does not exist ? I don't think so. Now don't be silly and recognize the natural rights of the homosexual people. Those who are opposed to it will be remembered with shame and disgrace in the future just like the ones who used to insist on the view that the world is a flat in the Middle Age.

There is no Holy book of the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster' for me to base my opinion on! Back to the topic, I seriously do not think future generations will look down on me for opposing homosexuality; And if they do - to hell with them (if I die before meeting them, I'm glad). I encourage you to really think about what it entails. Are you a homosexual yourself? Believe me, I have nothing to loose with other people being 'Queer'. If anything, its more woman for me! But I want to help them...


BDSM is about violence, the state has no right to intervene in the decision of two conscious people.

I hear it's a 'craze' now to strangle yourself while having intimate relations! See this is also stuff I disagree with, im much happier being 'backward'... :)

[arcticwolf]

Turkey you are on your way to become as decadent as the West! Congratulations! :D

[Sky earth]

I just can not understand why people are against same sex marriages. Did they hurt you or what? The only thing they do is to marrying not the opposite sex, but the same sex. For the people who scream it is unnormal. Everyone has an own opinion of what is normal or not. Maybe I am just too liberal, but i do not find anything disturbing on same sex marriages. I would support this. Everyone should live as he likes.

[Kemalisté]

I just can not understand why people are against same sex marriages. Did they hurt you or what? The only thing they do is to marrying not the opposite sex, but the same sex. For the people who scream it is unnormal. Everyone has an own opinion of what is normal or not. Maybe I am just too liberal, but i do not find anything disturbing on same sex marriages. I would support this. Everyone should live as he likes.

No one is opposed to it except some conservative fossil stuck in the Middle Age mentality.

[Kemalisté]

There is no Holy book of the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster' for me to base my opinion on! Back to the topic, I seriously do not think future generations will look down on me for opposing homosexuality; And if they do - to hell with them (if I die before meeting them, I'm glad). I encourage you to really think about what it entails. Are you a homosexual yourself? Believe me, I have nothing to loose with other people being 'Queer'. If anything, its more woman for me! But I want to help them...

There is, actually. It's called " The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster ".

I'm not homosexual, but I've taken warning by this famous quote:

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

No..

[Pecheneg]

No one is opposed to it except some conservative fossil stuck in the Middle Age mentality.

Creates a thread, asks your opinion. Then blames someone for being narrow/medieval minded after he shares his opinion. :rolleyes:



This topic might also be functioning as a litmus to expose narrow-minded people on this forum.

Apparently there's no one opposed to this natural right except a self-admitted reactionary and a fake steppe warrior so far.

:clap2:

[Kemalisté]

If this opinion advocates the banning of one's freedom then I don't count it as an opinion at all. I think you should be hanged in public so you respect it as well ?

[Pecheneg]

If this opinion advocates the banning of one's freedom then I don't count it as an opinion at all.
Then why is there "no" option in the pole? :confused:





I think you should be hanged in public so you respect it as well ?
Because of what? If i was a traitor, rapist or pkk-terrorist etc. then it would be somewhat respectable opinion. But it seems you want to execute everyone who are opposed to your political opinion.

[Cannabis Sativa]

I can defend same-sex marriages between Kemalists. They can drill each other from butt whenever or wherever they want. Thus they do not produce children and we would have a nice country.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I am not saying death to gays I say gay marriage is absurd.
Marriage is an institution found on reproduction and sharing material wealth for that purpose..
What is the purpose of gay marriage ,they live together anyway,why now they seek for government approval ,any logical answers?

[Annihilus]

I am not saying death to gays I say gay marriage is absurd.
Marriage is an institution found on reproduction and sharing material wealth for that purpose..
What is the purpose of gay marriage ,they live together anyway,why now they seek for government approval ,any logical answers?

They should have all the same rights, like inheriting when one partner dies or buying a house together and stuff like that. Many people have problems with the word marriage, then make a legal equivalent I would say.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

They should have all the same rights, like inheriting when one partner dies or buying a house together and stuff like that. Many people have problems with the word marriage, then make a legal equivalent I would say.

Being equal doesn't mean being same .
Marriage is arranged on people's needs when they are growing children.People share their property for becoming a family and share the errands and responsibilities too..They want rights ? Ok ,but what would be the responsibilities of a gay couple to eachother .
How you are going to define these rights and responsibilities in their marriage..
it's fun to spaculate lol..

[Annihilus]

Being equal doesn't mean being same .Marriage is arranged on people's needs when they are growing children.
People share their property for becoming a family and share the errands and responsibilities too..They want rights ? Ok but what would be the responsibilities of a gay couple to eachother .
How you are going to define these rights and responsibilities in their marriage..
it's fun to spaculate lol..

It would be exactly the same as man-woman marriage that cannot have children or decide not to have any. Also they can adopt (or have a biological child) but I think that is really a bridge too far for most people here.

[mysticism]

I say it depends on the feelings of the majority. Let them have a referendum, if the majority of Turkey want same-sex marriages let them have it. It could benefit their "image" amongst islamic countries. Benefit tourism too.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

It would be exactly the same as man-woman marriage that cannot have children or decide not to have any. Also they can adopt (or have a biological child) but I think that is really a bridge too far for most people here.

See my point ,that's why I am against it..They are just imitating heterosexual couples .. who want's to grow up in a family with two dads and no mum or opposite of it..imagine how child would feel about that ..

[Onur]

It could benefit their "image" amongst islamic countries.
All the Arabic countries already says that Turkey is an atheist state because of secularism and Turks are kaffirs, non-muslims or at least sinful muslims. If gay marriages would be allowed in Turkey, then they completely disrespect and curse us. Only Pakistan is truly friendly towards Turkey from that region and surroundings.

[Mortimer]

no they shouldnt be allowed to marry and less so to adopt children, gays adopting children is psychich terror and maltreatment of child, also child abuse of the worst kind. i dont care if they live in legaly recognized partnership though probably better than sleeping around and frequenting gay clubs where they have every second day another butt friend for sex.

[Ayazid]

All the Arabic countries already says that Turkey is an atheist state because of secularism and Turks are kaffirs, non-muslims or at least sinful muslims. If gay marriages would be allowed in Turkey, then they completely disrespect and curse us. Only Pakistan is truly friendly towards Turkey from that region and surroundings.

I don't think that any Arab country has ever states something like that. :D But it might be a common perception among Arabs that Turks are way too secular (which doesn't exclude a sense of closeness and appreciation for Turkish culture), but mind you: according to a poll by Pew Research Center some 60% Tunisians would prefer their country to be more like Turkey over 20% who would prefer the Saudi model (In Egypt, it was the right opposite).

As for Pakistan, it's a very conservative and religious country, I think that gay marriages in Turkey wouldn't help its image there too. :D

[Kemalisté]

I don't think that any Arab country has ever states something like that. :D But it might be a common perception that Turks are way too secular among Arabs (which doesn't exclude a sense of closeness and appreciation for Turkish culture), but mind you: according to a poll by Pew Research Center some 60% Tunisians would prefer their country to be more like Turkey over 20% who would prefer the Saudi model (In Egypt, it was the right opposite).

As for Pakistan, it's a very conservative and religious country, I think that gay marriages in Turkey wouldn't help its image there too. :D

Tunisia is not a good example, there are plenty seculars out there as well. Same goes for Algeria.

[Onur]

Tunisia is not a good example, there are plenty seculars out there as well. Same goes for Algeria.
Yes thats true, Tunisia is an unique example but we cant say the same for the rest.

but unfortunately, the seculars in Tunisia are being persecuted by the USA backed Arab spring jihadist terrorists nowadays.

[Su]

according to a poll by Pew Research Center some 60% Tunisians would prefer their country to be more like Turkey over 20% who would prefer the Saudi model (In Egypt, it was the right opposite).



Interesting stuff, do you have a source for it, so we can say what the rest of people said or voted for?

[Ayazid]

Sure :)


When asked which is a better model for the role of religion in Tunisia’s government – Turkey or Saudi Arabia – a majority names the more secular Turkey as the ideal, while just 18% choose Saudi Arabia. Another 15% volunteer that neither model is appropriate.

Young people and the highly educated are especially likely to name Turkey as the preferred model. Two-thirds of 18-to-29 year-olds choose Turkey, compared with 53% of those age 50 and older. Nearly seven-in-ten college graduates (69%) say the same, but just half (51%) of those with a primary education or less do so. (p. 33)

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2012/07/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Project-Arab-Spring-Report-FINAL-Tuesday-July-10-2012.pdf

They had only these 2 countries to choose, because there are hardly any other working choices nearby anyway.

[MfA_]

any sane person shouldnt want a theocratic state, if anyone wants that either they rule/exploit others or they are plain retarded idiots.. good to hear Tunisian only have 18% idiots..

[Su]

Sure :)



http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2012/07/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Project-Arab-Spring-Report-FINAL-Tuesday-July-10-2012.pdf

They had only these 2 countries to choose, because there are hardly any other working choices nearby anyway.


urkey Seen as Favoring
Democracy in Middle East
% Favors democracy in Middle East
Turkish
gov’t
Saudi Arabian
gov’t
U.S.
gov’t
Israeli
gov’t
% % % %
Turkey 58 18 12 10
Egypt 78 67 37 6
Jordan 70 64 14 3
Lebanon 49 48 42 4
Tunisia 74 31 26 2
Pakistan 38 52 15 10
MEDIAN 64 50 21 5

^Interesting (page 06)

[The Lively Rock]

Yeah. Country is secular(in the law) as far as I know. So I voted yes.

[Lathander]

CHP didn't raise their voice about it hardly,as far as I remember.Kurdish party did and I remember a nationalist party guy reacting about it.


Unexistence is not something that can be proven. Can you prove that the flying spaghetti monster does not exist ? I don't think so. Now don't be silly and recognize the natural rights of the homosexual people. Those who are opposed to it will be remembered with shame and disgrace in the future just like the ones who used to insist on the view that the world is a flat in the Middle Age.

Being atheist doesn't make you automatically pro-homo.Or not being against it makes you "narrow-minded".Just to remind,the earth's shape is a solid fact that played an important role in science,unlike this case.

And I remember when the transvesty singer Bület Ersoy confessed he\she had "familiarity" with Deniz Gezmiş (hero of the turkish leftists),our commies were not much willing to accept it:D

[mysticism]

All the Arabic countries already says that Turkey is an atheist state because of secularism and Turks are kaffirs, non-muslims or at least sinful muslims. If gay marriages would be allowed in Turkey, then they completely disrespect and curse us. Only Pakistan is truly friendly towards Turkey from that region and surroundings.

I meant in the West. Islamic countries generally have a bad rep with the western public, this act would make Turkey stand out as a bright-spot amongst the muslims. It would benefit the west's political and social feelings towards turkey.