Roughly 18000 kurds out of 20 million kurds...

[Su]

Based on the Turkish government 20% of Turkey is Kurdish which is 15 million people out of 75 million is Kurdish but according to Kurds or Kurdish sources it is at least 20 million out of 75 million is Kurdish.

Anyway keep the number in mind and read the following article then you will realise just how very tiny percentage of Kurds is seeking kurdish lessons at schools:



‘Mother tongue class less than expected’

Turkish Education Minister Ömer Dinçer said the demand for mother tongue education was much less than had been expected and the final data would be released in a few weeks.

“The data we obtained show that there is a serious decrease in demand [for mother tongue education]. Only Kurmanji [a Kurdish dialect] and Zazaki are demanded, and about 18,000 people demand them. I cannot give more specific information since every school declares its own records, and statistical data is still required,” Dinçer said at an opening ceremony in Istanbul yesterday.

Speaking about PKK attacks on educational institutions in the east, Dinçer said the PKK aimed to harm Turkey’s education system.

“We are talking about the Kurdistan Workers’ Party [PKK] as a terrorist organization, and the subject of terrorism has many dimensions. I can say that the main target is to harm education,” Dinçer said, adding that the families in southeastern and eastern Turkey wanted their children to receive education and reacted against the attacks.

According to him, the PKK was not expecting such determination.

“Even though the terrorist organization tried hard to hinder education, they faced the people’s resistance.”
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/mother-tongue-class-less-than-expected.aspx?pageID=238&nID=34602&NewsCatID=338


Why do you reckon that the number of students choosing Kurdish as mother tongue class is less than expected ?

[ChildOfTheJin]

1) Kurds can only study Kurdish 2 hours a week. It is a waste of time if it is so short. It should be allowed daily.

2) I do not agree with Turkish propaganda trying to claim the PKK attacks schools

3) I highly doubt this website is reliable in a case that involves the Kurds.

4) The article said Kurdish. Arrest the traitor who wrote this! :picard1:

[Su]

I highly doubt this website is reliable in a case that involves the Kurds.



You're having double standards, if this new paper publishes an article that you can use to troll Turks, you got no doubt about the truth of the article but if its involved pkk terrorists you show your double standards and don't accept the truth.

Also why don't you post some news about the Iraqi kurds, you are not from Turkey, Turkey is not your country. You are originating from Iraq and so far I have never seen you opening a thread about Iraq or how many threads did you opened up about Iraq and how many about Turkey?

[Hayalet]

Interesting figure. But I would like to see Bugarash's take on this before offering my own. Because 11 thousand students among the Turkish community of 600 thousands was supposed to be a tiny percentage in Bulgaria. What does that make 18 thousand students among the Kurdish community of over 10 million in Turkey? Is there a word in dictionary for that? :)

[Su]

Interesting figure. But I would like to see Bugarash's take on this before offering my own. Because 11 thousand students among the Turkish community of 600 thousands was supposed to be a tiny percentage in Bulgaria. What does that make 18 thousand students among the Kurdish community of over 10 million in Turkey? Is there a word in dictionary for that? :)

You say it 10 million, while the government says 15 millions and kurdish nationalists say 20 millions :D

At any rate I wanna see Bugarash's answer :D

[Hayalet]

You say it 10 million, while the government says 15 millions and kurdish nationalists say 20 millions :D
Actually, the government doesn't have an official position on this. In any case, the more Kurds there are, the smaller the percentage in question becomes. ;)

[ChildOfTheJin]

You're having double standards, if this new paper publishes an article that you can use to troll Turks, you got no doubt about the truth of the article but if its involved pkk terrorists you show your double standards and don't accept the truth.

Also why don't you post some news about the Iraqi kurds, you are not from Turkey, Turkey is not your country. You are originating from Iraq and so far I have never seen you opening a thread about Iraq or how many threads did you opened up about Iraq and how many about Turkey?

Yes but can you trust a Turkish site on Kurds? Same applies for the kurdish sites on Turks. It isn't reliable.

Turkey is not my country correct, the Netherlands is my country. For me, I view all Kurds as the same people. A Turkish Kurd is no different to a Iraqi Kurd.

[Hayalet]

Yes but can you trust a Turkish site on Kurds? Same applies for the kurdish sites on Turks. It isn't reliable.
Do you live your whole life on the Internet? Because that figure does not come from a website, but the Minister of National Education in Turkey. If there is any suspicion he is not telling the truth, any Member of Parliament (including 29 Kurdish nationalists) can submit a motion of interpellation against him. You should keep your Iraqi mouth shut until they do.

[Demhat]

source Hurriyetdailyshit :D

[ChildOfTheJin]

You should keep your Iraqi mouth shut until they do.

What part of me is Iraqi? I am only only Iraqi if I say so keep your 2D Mongoloid mouth shut!


Do you live your whole life on the Internet? Because that figure does not come from a website, but the Minister of National Education in Turkey. If there is any suspicion he is not telling the truth, any Member of Parliament (including 29 Kurdish nationalists) can submit a motion of interpellation against him.


Minister of National Education in Turkey


Minister of National Education in Turkey

:thumb001:

[kokturuk]

big lie.

[Hoca]

I think Kurds who are hostile to the Turkish republic should be deported to Iraq. They have not earned to live in Anatolia. First we will ask them to lay down their gun. Then we will ask them to leave. Then we will raze them down. Anatolia was never their homeland, nor was their homeland anywhere else. They can have Iraq in my opinion or at least share it with the Arabs, if they respect the Turkmen minority there.

[denz]

We know that his real name is Artin Agopyan. We already know that his dad is Armenian coming from old Armenian village amarli. Also we know his mom is Turkish. Real Kurds should know that this pkk has been founded right after Asala. Doesn't matter 10 or 15 million Kurds living, but they shouldn't let this game ...

[randomguy1235]

I think Kurds who are hostile to the Turkish republic should be deported to Iraq. They have not earned to live in Anatolia. First we will ask them to lay down their gun. Then we will ask them to leave. Then we will raze them down. Anatolia was never their homeland, nor was their homeland anywhere else. They can have Iraq in my opinion or at least share it with the Arabs, if they respect the Turkmen minority there.
lol, You can't just deport tens of millions of individuals into a new country, especially if they've been living there for generations...There's been contention between the Kurdish separatists in Iraq and the Iraqi population, so that would be a terrible idea to deport them to Iraq anyways.

[American_Hispanist]

the Kurds in this thread..........

[Xyresic]

lol, You can't just deport tens of millions of individuals into a new country, especially if they've been living there for generations...There's been contention between the Kurdish separatists in Iraq and the Iraqi population, so that would be a terrible idea to deport them to Iraq anyways.It wouldn't be tens of millions since exaggerated claims allege that Turkey is 20% Kurdish which would be about 14 to 15 million at most.

Its not Iraq and Turkeys fault if Kurds want to cause problems and insurrections in the countries they live in. Kurds knew where the border was going to be, if they didn't like it they could have left in 1923. If not, they need to accept and respect the territorial integrity of Turkey.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Its not Iraq and Turkeys fault if Kurds want to cause problems and insurrections in the countries they live in. Kurds knew where the border was going to be, if they didn't like it they could have left in 1923. If not, they need to accept and respect the territorial integrity of Turkey.

Stfu, fucking Ataturk's followers burnt over 3000 Kurdish villages and killed atleast a million in the process, territorial integrity my ass.... Actually Kurds thought that there would be a Kurdish state stretching from Elazig to Khanaqin like the West promised us, we were betrayed. First learn your fucking history before you say anything like that.

[adsız]

Kurds ,as Tengri created them, are not capable , by their nature, of establishing a state by themselves. They have always been ruled by others, Rome, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire, Turkey...Even though the west present them a fake one in Northern Iraq, i do not think it can have long life.

[Xyresic]

Stfu, fucking Ataturk's followers burnt over 3000 Kurdish villages and killed atleast a million in the process, territorial integrity my ass....Yeah right. In your dreams.


Actually Kurds thought that there would be a Kurdish state stretching from Elazig to Khanaqin like the West promised us, we were betrayed. First learn your fucking history before you say anything like that.Why should tribal people who never even settled and violently attacked and sabotaged Ottoman relocation of Armenians during WW1 be offered a state?

Surprise, surprise the West used you when it benefited them. But they didn't fight for you or cry for you when Kurdish statehood aspirations died along with the Sevres treaty.

[adsız]

slaves by nature ...! The painful truth.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Kurds ,as Tengri created them, are not capable , by their nature, of establishing a state by themselves. They have always been ruled by others, Rome, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire, Turkey...Even though the west present them a fake one in Northern Iraq, i do not think it can have long life.

Tengri? lol shut up, religion is all bull****. We were betrayed by the west when they promised us a state but that is irrelevent. Do you really expect a bunch of disunited tribes to be able to create a state? For a state to be established, the people need to be united which is what, until recently, Kurds lacked. If you study the Medes, Mitanni and all other Kurdish history, you will know that what you just said is not true.


Yeah right. In your dreams.

Genocide denier, fuck you.


Why should tribal people who never even settled and violently attacked and sabotaged Ottoman relocation of Armenians during WW1 be offered a state?

Lol excuses excuses, the one who rounded and ordered Hamidye to attack was a TURK, not a Kurd.

Ottoman relocation of Armenians?

1. That never happened and you Turks are just trying to cover up your tracks
2. Why would you need to relocate people from their native land?



Surprise, surprise the West used you when it benefited them. But they didn't fight for you or cry for you when Kurdish statehood aspirations died along with the Sevres treaty.

The Western governments hate all Middle Easterners including Turks and Kurds, wake up and get out of NATO before it's too late. Well, I'm not surprised, Ataturk after all allied himself to the imperialists.



slaves by nature ...! The painful truth.


lol it's so funny how people can be fooled into believing that there is a God.

[adsız]

Yes, i accept that kurds are second class in Turkey but it is not our fault.
Their evolution did not complete yet. So, they are mostly uneducated because they dont want to send their daughters to school , instead, sell them to old men.

I dont know why some people here in TA cherry pick relatively white people and say kurds are white. Actually , they are known damn dark.

We even have an idiom: Black like a kurd...

They are mostly criminals, drug dealers, practising incest, female circumcision, honor killings..etc.

In case someone deny these truths, i can prove with links.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Blah blah blah blah

Lol, don't make me start.

Man rapes duck in Turkish village

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/man-rapes-duck-in-turkish-village-.aspx?pageID=238&nid=30133


A man was detained in Bursa province in Turkey’s Marmara region for allegedly raping a duck, daily Habertürk reported.

Police forces detained the man following complaints from his inlaws, who claimed he had raped one of their ducks during an overnight stay in their house.

The man’s father-in-law said he found "feathers and blood" in a bed with the duck.

The duck was "unable to walk," according to the father-in-law. The man’s mother-in-law told daily Habertürk she later discovered the man’s bloody shirt by a tree the next morning.

The 50 year-old suspect denied all accusations, calling them all "slander."

The duck was found to have suffered deformation and damage to its intestines and underwent several operations. It is now reportedly in good condition and remains in a vetrenarian’s care.

I made a succesful troll thread on this, it was removed, but that doesn't stop me from making it again.

[adsız]

There is NOT any original language named "kurdish".


V. Minorsky illustrated that it is:
3080 words......Turkish
1030 ...... Persian
1200 ...... Zend dialect
370 ........ Pehlevi dialect
2000 ...... Arabic
220 ........ Ermenian
108 ........ Keldanî
60 ......... circassian
20 ......... Georgian
300 ....... unknown source

[adsız]

YES, when you are arrested for any crime, you are Turk.

Turkish media never mention about the ethnicity of suspects in their news.

[ChildOfTheJin]

There is NOT any original language named "kurdish".


V. Minorsky illustrated that it is:
3080 words......Turkish
1030 ...... Persian
1200 ...... Zend dialect
370 ........ Pehlevi dialect
2000 ...... Arabic
220 ........ Ermenian
108 ........ Keldanî
60 ......... circassian
20 ......... Georgian
300 ....... unknown source

Changing the subject I see. Anyway, no it wasn't Minorsky that said that.

[ChildOfTheJin]

YES, when you arrested for any crime, you are Turk.

Turkish media never mention about the ethnicity of suspects in their news.

You idiot it said 'Bursa Region' the majority there are Turks.

[adsız]

same none-sense.. no need to spend more time ...

[ChildOfTheJin]

same none-sense.. no need to spend more time ...

You know to :thumb001:

[Xyresic]

Genocide denier, fuck you.Kurdish "genocide" my ass.


Lol excuses excuses, the one who rounded and ordered Hamidye to attack was a TURK, not a Kurd.

Ottoman relocation of Armenians?

1. That never happened and you Turks are just trying to cover up your tracks
2. Why would you need to relocate people from their native land?This video explains Armenian issue well and Kurdish violence prior to and during the Ottoman relocations of Armenians:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtNE4WkpBbQ

The West used Armenians and Kurds. As and when was needed. But not no one would fight for you or shed a tear for you.


The Western governments hate all Middle Easterners including Turks and Kurds, wake up and get out of NATO before it's too late. Well, I'm not surprised, Ataturk after all allied himself to the imperialists.What does Kurds know about things like foreign relations, governance and geopolitical strategy.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Kurdish "genocide" my ass.

If the Dersim massacre wasn't a genocide then it's an ethnocide which means Ataturk was a terrorist.


This video explains Armenian issue well and Kurdish violence prior to and during the Ottoman relocations of Armenians:

I watched the first 10 minutes and it says nothing of relocation but it claims that Armenians created terror groups to target Kurds and Turks and that Hamidye was just a reaction from the Turks and Kurds. Basically this video says it's the Armenians fault.


The West used Armenians and Kurds. As and when was needed. But not no one would fight for you or shed a tear for you.

You think I don't know that? It's like that with every nation, they use you and when you're weak they abandon you.


What does Kurds know about things like foreign relations, governance and geopolitical strategy.

More than you

[Arbërori]

I hope Kurdistan gets it's independence as soon as possible, what they have to go through in that pathetic excuse of a country is horrible! :(

[legolasbozo]

I hope Kurdistan gets it's independence as soon as possible, what they have to go through in that pathetic excuse of a country is horrible! :(

Hey, greek wannabe slovenian, in bursa region someone fucks duck so you should avoid to been there. This is a trap. Hahahaha

[Petros Houhoulis]

I think Kurds who are hostile to the Turkish republic should be deported to Iraq. They have not earned to live in Anatolia. First we will ask them to lay down their gun. Then we will ask them to leave. Then we will raze them down. Anatolia was never their homeland, nor was their homeland anywhere else. They can have Iraq in my opinion or at least share it with the Arabs, if they respect the Turkmen minority there.

Asia Minor was never their homeland? HA!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#Origins


The Kurds as an ethnic group appear in the medieval period. The Kurdish people are believed to be of heterogenous origins[50] combining a number of earlier tribal or ethnic groups[40] including Median,[40][50][51][52] Lullubi,[53] Guti,[53] Cyrtians,[54] Carduchi.[55] They have also absorbed some elements from Semitic,[40][56][57][58][59] Turkic[60][61][62][63] and Armenian.[40][64][65][66][67][68]

According to Minorsky there is an "ethno-geographical identification" of present day Kurds as descendent of ancient Medes, an idea based on his "historical, linguistic, and philological" arguments.[69] This was further advanced by I. Gershevitch who provided first "a piece of linguistic confirmation" of Minorsky's identification and then another "sociolinguistic" argument. Those works of Minorsky were the base of yet another and different approach by Mackenzie. He argued that in contrast to Minorsky (and precisely Gershevitch's advancement) the evolution of the present day Kurdish language as a North Western Iranian language was to "lean more toward Persian" and in turn "marked off from Median".[69] These disagreements of scholars caused bitter reactions.[69] Dandamaev considers Carduchi (who were from the upper Tigris near the Assyrian and Median borders) less likely than Cyrtians as ancestors of modern Kurds.[70] However according to McDowall, the term Cyrtii was first applied to Seleucid or Parthian mercenary slingers from Zagros, and it is not clear if it denoted a coherent linguistic or ethnic group.[71] Gershevitch and Fisher consider the independent Kardouchoi or Carduchi as the ancestors of the Kurds, or at least the original nucleus of the Iranian-speaking people in what is now Kurdistan.[55]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#Medieval_period


In the 7th century, the Arabs possessed the castles and fortifications of the Kurds. The conquest of the cities of Sharazor and Darabaz took place in 643 CE. In 838 CE, Mir Jafar one of the leaders of the Kurds in Mosul revolted against the Caliph Al-Mu'tasim who sent the commander Itakh to combat against him. Itakh won this war and killed many of the Kurds. The Kurds revolted again in 903 CE, during the period of Almoqtadar. Eventually Arabs conquered the Kurdish regions and gradually the majority of Kurds converted to Islam.

Do you know where you were in the 7th century A.D.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_history


Oghuz Turks[6] began migrating into Anatolia in the context of the larger Turkic expansion, forming the Seljuq Empire in the 11th century AD.[7] After the Seljuq victory over forces of the Byzantine Empire in 1071 at the Battle of Manzikert,[8] the process was accelerated. [9]

Somewhere north or east of Caucasus for sure... You had not reached Persia yet.

The Kurds are by far more indigenous than you are. Either they descend from Cyrtii or Carduchi, they are in the region several centuries before Christ. You have razed them down already plenty of times, 3.000 villages in the last 30 years, remember. They are still there... And you know where they are planning to stick that carrot of yours, once they get you...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Yes, i accept that kurds are second class in Turkey but it is not our fault.
Their evolution did not complete yet. So, they are mostly uneducated because they dont want to send their daughters to school , instead, sell them to old men.

I dont know why some people here in TA cherry pick relatively white people and say kurds are white. Actually , they are known damn dark.

We even have an idiom: Black like a kurd...

They are mostly criminals, drug dealers, practising incest, female circumcision, honor killings..etc.

In case someone deny these truths, i can prove with links.

I can prove that you are stupid for incorporating them in Turkey without links. You proved my point already. Prepare to be demographically annihilated.

[Petros Houhoulis]

slaves by nature ...! The painful truth.

Ever heard of Saladin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin#Early_life


Saladin was born in Tikrit, Mesopotamia. His personal name was "Yusuf"; "Salah ad-Din" is a laqab (nick name), a descriptive epithet, meaning "Righteousness of the Faith."[8] His family was of Kurdish background and ancestry,[2] and had originated from the village of Ajdanakan near the city of Dvin, in medieval Armenia.[9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin

He started off as a servant of the Zengids:


Originally sent to Fatimid Egypt with his uncle Shirkuh by their Zengid lord Nur ad-Din in 1163

He ended up conquering land from the Zengids:


Not long after the death of Nur ad-Din in 1174, Saladin personally led the conquest of Syria, peacefully entering Damascus at the request of its ruler. By mid-1175, Saladin had conquered Hama and Homs, inviting the animosity of his former Zengid lords, now based at Aleppo and Mosul, who had been the official rulers of Syria. Soon after, he defeated the Zengid army in battle and was thereafter proclaimed the "Sultan of Egypt and Syria" by the Abbasid caliph al-Mustadi. He made further conquests in northern Syria and Jazira and escaped two attempts on his life by the Assassins, before returning to Egypt in 1177 to deal with issues in Egypt. By 1182 Saladin completed the conquest of Syria after capturing Aleppo, but ultimately failed in taking over the Zengid stronghold of Mosul.

...And who were the Zengids???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zengid


The Zengid (or Zangid) dynasty was a Muslim dynasty of Oghuz Turk origin,[1] which ruled parts of Syria and northern Iraq on behalf of the Seljuk Empire.[2]

Make sure that you keep a vaseline bottle in the bedside table. You never know when the "Slaves" shall come to you... It might be in the cover of darkness...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Kurds ,as Tengri created them, are not capable , by their nature, of establishing a state by themselves. They have always been ruled by others, Rome, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire, Turkey...Even though the west present them a fake one in Northern Iraq, i do not think it can have long life.

Until they find their Saladin...

...And take over the entire Turkey.

[Petros Houhoulis]

It wouldn't be tens of millions since exaggerated claims allege that Turkey is 20% Kurdish which would be about 14 to 15 million at most.

Its not Iraq and Turkeys fault if Kurds want to cause problems and insurrections in the countries they live in. Kurds knew where the border was going to be, if they didn't like it they could have left in 1923. If not, they need to accept and respect the territorial integrity of Turkey.

The Kurds were told otherwise in the treaty of Sevres. What is the matter anyway? They shall overtake you demographically sooner or later. The only reason you won't let them have their own state is your stupidity...

[Petros Houhoulis]

We know that his real name is Artin Agopyan. We already know that his dad is Armenian coming from old Armenian village amarli. Also we know his mom is Turkish. Real Kurds should know that this pkk has been founded right after Asala. Doesn't matter 10 or 15 million Kurds living, but they shouldn't let this game ...

So what? Saladin was a Kurd, yet he never ruled over the Kurds. He liberated Egypt and the Levant instead. Does it matter if an Armenian liberates the Kurds???

[adsız]

Until they find their Saladin...

...And take over the entire Turkey.

Selahaddin Eyyubi was not a kürt. Kürts never had a civilisation in history. I will not waste my time to prove it. Because you seemed trying to provocate people under by repeating he was a kürt 3 times under same thread.

Wiki is not considered as academic/scientific source.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Selahaddin Eyyubi was not a kürt. Kürts never had a civilisation in history. I will not waste my time to prove it. Because you seemed trying to provocate people under by repeating he was a kürt 3 times under same thread.

Wiki is not considered as academic/scientific source.

1) Saladins uncle was called Shirkuh. Shirkuh is only a name among Kurds and means 'Lion of the mountains'.

2) His brother may have been called Turanshah, but look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan


Tūrān (Persian توران) is the Persian name[1] for a region around Central Asia, literally meaning "the land of the Tur". As described below, the original Turanians are an Iranian[2][3][4] tribe of the Avestan age. As a people the "Turanian" are one of the two Iranian peoples both descending from the Persian Fereydun but with different domains and often at war with each other.[5][6]

Turanism didn't exist during the times of the Ayyubids.

3) Probably all modern scholars have confirmed his Kurdish origins, it's only the Turks that call him a Turk. Arabs, Persians any other people that know of his origins call him a Kurd, except for Turks who are too butthurt.

4) His family came from the Kurdish Rawadid dynasty who settled in Dvin.

[adsız]

tuğtekin and böri ? :)

[ChildOfTheJin]

tuğtekin and böri ? :)

:confused:

[Xyresic]

The Kurds were told otherwise in the treaty of Sevres. What is the matter anyway? They shall overtake you demographically sooner or later. The only reason you won't let them have their own state is your stupidity...Interesting, the treaty of Sevres also said that Greece can have Izmir and its environs. But as I'm sure your aware the treaty of Sevres was negated. It was negated by the Turks who said not a chance and threw the Greeks into the Aegean sea.

The Kurds sabotaged our relocation of the Armenians and killed a great deal of them. They never fought on the allied side. They shouldn't have even been offered a state during Sevres. They have been used bythe west, they are still being used today.

Numbers aren't so important; other factors like effective strategy, organisation, determination, strength and technology are important. Could always relocate existential threats to our sovereignty.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Selahaddin Eyyubi was not a kürt. Kürts never had a civilisation in history. I will not waste my time to prove it. Because you seemed trying to provocate people under by repeating he was a kürt 3 times under same thread.

Wiki is not considered as academic/scientific source.

I do not care what do you consider wikipedia to be. If you want to disprove wikipedia, find an academic source that disputes that Saladin was a Kurd.

East Timor never had a civilization either. South Sudan never had a civilization either. So what? Did it stop any of them from creating a country?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Interesting, the treaty of Sevres also said that Greece can have Izmir and its environs. But as I'm sure your aware the treaty of Sevres was negated. It was negated by the Turks who said not a chance and threw the Greeks into the Aegean sea.

The Kurds sabotaged our relocation of the Armenians and killed a great deal of them. They never fought on the allied side. They shouldn't have even been offered a state during Sevres. They have been used bythe west, they are still being used today.

Numbers aren't so important; other factors like effective strategy, organisation, determination, strength and technology are important. Could always relocate existential threats to our sovereignty.

Of course treaties about borders are negated and renegotiated all of the time. This time its the Kurds' turn to throw you into the Aegean sea.

The Kurds were following your orders. They didn't just grab their guns and started killing the Armenians without a reason. They were used and are still used by the west, but this time they shall get their state. They are practically independent several years now in Iraq.

None of these factors have managed to subdue the Kurds in Turkey, several decades now that you have an open war. The relocation of several millions of people is a very theoretical approach. You could never achieve it today.

[zezar]

Kürts never had a civilisation in history. I will not waste my time to prove it.

Nah.... you won't waste your time cause you're an idiot and you can't prove it. Nowhere in any meaningful scholarly debate of Saladin's origins is his supposed Turkish ethnicity mentioned... he was either a cuman or a kurd. Get over it.

[Xyresic]

Of course treaties about borders are negated and renegotiated all of the time.Its not something that happens willy nilly. In terms of Turkeys borders an all out war would have to happen first.


This time its the Kurds' turn to throw you into the Aegean sea.Or the Kurds who go down the route of insurrection get thrown into prisons or denaturalised and expelled.


The Kurds were following your orders. They didn't just grab their guns and started killing the Armenians without a reason.Kurds and Armenians had a lot of tensions. Armenian revolutionaries massacred Kurds (and other Muslim groups) in Eastern Anatolia, Armenians faced reprisals from Kurds.


They were used and are still used by the west, but this time they shall get their state. They are practically independent several years now in Iraq.If/when they achieve statehood it will be Northern Iraq, could also be North East Syria. If the West invades Iran then maybe Iran too. But Turkey is out of the question.


None of these factors have managed to subdue the Kurds in Turkey, several decades now that you have an open war. The relocation of several millions of people is a very theoretical approach. You could never achieve it today.Terrorist bombings is not all out war and there has been some fighting in parts of Eastern Turkey. Many Kurds don't support the PKK, its ideology, its methods. They are more concerned about earning a living and providing for their families.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Its not something that happens willy nilly. In terms of Turkeys borders an all out war would have to happen first.

Or the Kurds who go down the route of insurrection get thrown into prisons or denaturalised and expelled.

Kurds and Armenians had a lot of tensions. Armenian revolutionaries massacred Kurds (and other Muslim groups) in Eastern Anatolia, Armenians faced reprisals from Kurds.

If/when they achieve statehood it will be Northern Iraq, could also be North East Syria. If the West invades Iran then maybe Iran too. But Turkey is out of the question.

Terrorist bombings is not all out war and there has been some fighting in parts of Eastern Turkey. Many Kurds don't support the PKK, its ideology, its methods. They are more concerned about earning a living and providing for their families.

There is a better solution: Kurds multiply to above 50% of Turkeys' population, and vote to have the name of the country into Kurdistan. No need for war, no need for border changes, no need for nothing...

You cannot throw into prisons, expell or denaturalize several million of people. You've tried that solution with several thousands, but it didn't get you anywhere. How long shall you keep fighting them? They are getting more numerous over time, they are not getting fewer.

So the Kurds were massacring Armenians and the Armenians were massacring Kurds while the Ottoman empire stood on the sidelines and watched the show... Do you actually realize that you make a fool out of yourself? Which country would see thousands of its' citizens killing each other and proclaim "This is not my problem"!

Turkey is the question, they are TAKING OVER THE WHOLE COUNTRY BY MEANS OR HAVING MORE CHILDREN, those children are EMIGRATING TO THE WEST OF THE COUNTRY AND COLONIZE IT. Kurdish is already an official language in Turkey. Honestly, this is happening to Turkey ALONE, it does not happen in Iraq or Syria or Iran... WAKE UP.

Of course most Kurds are more concerned to earn a living, but most Turks are also more concerned to earn a living. Only fools go to wars without reason...

[Xyresic]

There is a better solution: Kurds multiply to above 50% of Turkeys' population, and vote to have the name of the country into Kurdistan. No need for war, no need for border changes, no need for nothing...

You cannot throw into prisons, expell or denaturalize several million of people. You've tried that solution with several thousands, but it didn't get you anywhere. How long shall you keep fighting them? They are getting more numerous over time, they are not getting fewer.
Turkey is the question, they are TAKING OVER THE WHOLE COUNTRY BY MEANS OR HAVING MORE CHILDREN, those children are EMIGRATING TO THE WEST OF THE COUNTRY AND COLONIZE IT. Kurdish is already an official language in Turkey. Honestly, this is happening to Turkey ALONE, it does not happen in Iraq or Syria or Iran... WAKE UP.Aghhh, who will administer the vote? What if Turks boycott it? You don't know whats currently going on in Turkey. They might be changing the constitution that will allow much more autonomy for provinces to run their own affairs - i.e. decentralisation. Kurds have alot more rights now than they had 30 or even 10 years ago. Possible constitutional changes might give many minority groups recognition. Ocalan told all PKK to leave Turkey, so he even wants to give democratic reforms a chance.

Kurds have a high birth rate, but many of them are assimilated and many are also devout Muslims who reject PKKs Marxist ideology and the idea of killing other Muslims for Nationalistic purposes. So by no means are all Kurds in Turkey unified in their views and beliefs. As we both appear to agree most people just want to earn money and look after their family and not trying to change borders.

The demographic situation is not as acute as its being portrayed by some. That scenario may be many many generations away and peoples lifestyles and reproductive habits can and do change over time. Many parts of the Muslim world currently have low birthrates like many parts of Europe. There was even a book written about it called "How Civilizations Die: And Why Islam Is Dying Too".


So the Kurds were massacring Armenians and the Armenians were massacring Kurds while the Ottoman empire stood on the sidelines and watched the show... Do you actually realize that you make a fool out of yourself? Which country would see thousands of its' citizens killing each other and proclaim "This is not my problem"!I didn't say that. Your saying things that I didn't say. Maybe you should ask the Muslims of Eastern Anatolia what the Hunchaks and Dashnaks were doing? The situation was not as simple as you describe it.


Of course most Kurds are more concerned to earn a living, but most Turks are also more concerned to earn a living. Only fools go to wars without reason...Exactly. This is reality, not wars and trying to change borders.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Aghhh, who will administer the vote? What if Turks boycott it? You don't know whats currently going on in Turkey.

We are not talking about what is going on in Turkey right now, but what shall happen if the Kurds become a majority in Turkey about 50 years from now. If the Turks boycott it, they shall certainly lose.


They might be changing the constitution that will allow much more autonomy for provinces to run their own affairs - i.e. decentralisation. Kurds have alot more rights now than they had 30 or even 10 years ago. Possible constitutional changes might give many minority groups recognition. Ocalan told all PKK to leave Turkey, so he even wants to give democratic reforms a chance.

Ocalan is your puppet and the Kurds know it. Nevertheless, the Kurds are pushed to fight in Syria right now by every single Western international player.


Kurds have a high birth rate, but many of them are assimilated and many are also devout Muslims who reject PKKs Marxist ideology and the idea of killing other Muslims for Nationalistic purposes.
If Turkey follows the example of the west (and we all know that Turkey is following the lead of the west since the Kemalist era, if not earlier) the affiliation to religion shall grow weaker and the affiliation of ethnicity shall grown stronger. You have a point that many Kurds are getting assimilated, but there is no question that the Kurds are making advances towards you and not the other way around. No Turks are immigrating to the South East of Turkey.


So by no means are all Kurds in Turkey unified in their views and beliefs. As we both appear to agree most people just want to earn money and look after their family and not trying to change borders.

The demographic situation is not as acute as its being portrayed by some. That scenario may be many many generations away and peoples lifestyles and reproductive habits can and do change over time. Many parts of the Muslim world currently have low birthrates like many parts of Europe. There was even a book written about it called "How Civilizations Die: And Why Islam Is Dying Too".

It is hard to predict the future, but poorer areas tend to reproduce more all over the globe. I do not see the Kurds becoming richer than you anytime soon.


I didn't say that. Your saying things that I didn't say. Maybe you should ask the Muslims of Eastern Anatolia what the Hunchaks and Dashnaks were doing? The situation was not as simple as you describe it.

The Kurds did have a conflict with the Armenians, but you pushed the Kurds into a conflict with the Armenians and you benefited from it. Don't try to hide behind the Kurds now. You gave the expulsion orders after all.


Exactly. This is reality, not wars and trying to change borders.

Hopefully you shall accept it in Cyprus. Nobody recognizes that puppet of yours, except for Turkey.

[Xyresic]

We are not talking about what is going on in Turkey right now, but what shall happen if the Kurds become a majority in Turkey about 50 years from now. If the Turks boycott it, they shall certainly lose.Meanwhile in reality. Kurdish political parties get less than 3 million votes.

Kurds wont be a majority in 50 years time either. Thats just fear mongering and a misunderstanding of demography. They have higher birthrates but its not that much that they could be a majority in 50 years.


Ocalan is your puppet and the Kurds know it. Nevertheless, the Kurds are pushed to fight in Syria right now by every single Western international player.LOL, didn't Greece harbour him in their Embassy in Kenya?


If Turkey follows the example of the west (and we all know that Turkey is following the lead of the west since the Kemalist era, if not earlier) the affiliation to religion shall grow weaker and the affiliation of ethnicity shall grown stronger.Well constitutions and things like definitions of nationality and citizenship can be redefined. More inclusive societies can be created. Turks and Kurds have historic ties.

Greece on the other hand has completely different racial foreigners that it doesn't even share history, culture, religion with. I'd worry about your Greek future if I were you.. How many 10s if not 100s of thousands of Afghanis, Iraqis, Somalians,etc... that wont be assimilating any time soon does Greece have.


You have a point that many Kurds are getting assimilated, but there is no question that the Kurds are making advances towards you and not the other way around.And?


No Turks are immigrating to the South East of Turkey.But there are many loyal people to the Turkish state in SE Turkey too.


It is hard to predict the future, but poorer areas tend to reproduce more all over the globe. I do not see the Kurds becoming richer than you anytime soon.Well I think they will gain more wealth and become more educated. People underestimate the importance of women, when they are more educated and aware of womens rights then they will probably be more inclined not to be baby producing factories.


The Kurds did have a conflict with the Armenians, but you pushed the Kurds into a conflict with the Armenians and you benefited from it. Don't try to hide behind the Kurds now. You gave the expulsion orders after all.Perhaps you should ask yourself what were the tactics of the Armenian Revolutionary groups like Dashnak and Hunchak in Eastern Anatolia.


Hopefully you shall accept it in Cyprus.South Cyprus never agreed to unification with North Cyprus in 2004. It doesn't take 40 years to agree on something. There is more chance of Turkey and Greece agreeing to unite than South and North Cyprus.


Nobody recognizes that puppet of yours, except for Turkey.So? International recognition is not a prerequisite to be country.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Meanwhile in reality. Kurdish political parties get less than 3 million votes.

That's because you have the highest electoral threshold in the world at 10% for all parties wishing to enter the Turkish parliament, not to mention that you have banned the most Kurdish political parties on the grounds of terrorism...


Kurds wont be a majority in 50 years time either. Thats just fear mongering and a misunderstanding of demography. They have higher birthrates but its not that much that they could be a majority in 50 years.

We shall see what is going to happen in 50 years from now. For the moment your very own 'rrrDOGan has been panicked and requests from Turks to start having more children:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-pm-erdogan-reiterates-his-call-for-three-children.aspx?pageID=238&nid=38235


Turkish PM Erdoğan reiterates his call for three children.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan repeated his call to Turkish families for at least three children, at a summit held in Ankara yesterday. Speaking at the International Family and Social Policies Summit, the prime minister said that the strength of a nation lies in its families and the strength of families lies in the number of their children.

“One or two children mean bankruptcy. Three children mean we are not improving but not receding either. So, I repeat, at least three children are necessary in each family, because our population risks aging. We are still on the good side, as we still own a young and dynamic population. But we are slowly aging. Presently, the whole western world is trying to cope with this problem. Please do not take our susceptibility lightly, this is a very serious issue,” he said.

Erdoğan also underlined the importance of family values and said, as a conservative democratic party, the Justice and Development Party (AKP) focused their whole policy around the idea of strong families.

“There are abstract values that make a household a family. And it is extremely dangerous if that family loses those values. Therefore we are working on developing new projects to protect family values. We took measures to remove the pressure on family unity due to economic problems. We distributed a total of 108 billion Turkish Liras in social aid to citizens in need. In April we started a new program for single mothers who lost their husbands. We are providing them an allowance of 500 liras every two months and so far 225,000 citizens have benefited from these assistance projects. We have more projects to come in the near future,” he said.

January/03/2013

You are shitting your pants and we have noticed dear, even though we don't have more children per family than you...




LOL, didn't Greece harbour him in their Embassy in Kenya?

Yes, and our intention to protect him was legitimate and in accordance to the laws of the E.U. as long as the death penalty was applicable in Turkey and Ocalan was certain to receive a death penalty as he did (until Turkey itself was obliged to alter its' laws and ban the death penalty)


Well constitutions and things like definitions of nationality and citizenship can be redefined. More inclusive societies can be created. Turks and Kurds have historic ties.

More inclusive societies can be created, but the only way the Turks have ever succeeded at it was via religion, and we all know that Islam serves you shit. On the contrary Greece has an appeal of it's own since the antiquity that has pulled many different people within its' orbit over the millenia, from Anaharsis the Scythian and Lucianus Samosatensis, an ethnic Syrian, up to Christian Barnard who was the South African surgeon who pioneered the heart transplant in medicine...


Greece on the other hand has completely different racial foreigners that it doesn't even share history, culture, religion with. I'd worry about your Greek future if I were you.. How many 10s if not 100s of thousands of Afghanis, Iraqis, Somalians,etc... that wont be assimilating any time soon does Greece have.

Actually, their diversity guarantees that they shall never unite against Greece and they shall be much easier to assimilate, plus, they don't have ties to the land like the Kurds do, who have been living in "Turkey" long before you Turks set your foot there. Buddy, forget it, Greece can assimilate anybody.


And?

...And the Kurds shall expand towards you but not the other way around.


But there are many loyal people to the Turkish state in SE Turkey too.

I'd rather use the term "terrorized" instead of loyal...


Well I think they will gain more wealth and become more educated. People underestimate the importance of women, when they are more educated and aware of womens rights then they will probably be more inclined not to be baby producing factories.

Kurdistan shall never be as much sophisticated as the coastline, because of geography. The coastline receives millions of tourists every year and they have an impact upon you. The Kurds barely have a contact with the outside world. Furthermore, Turkeys' economy is slowing down dangerously lately...


Perhaps you should ask yourself what were the tactics of the Armenian Revolutionary groups like Dashnak and Hunchak in Eastern Anatolia.

Why don't you provide sources about their tactics? Preferrably FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS...


South Cyprus never agreed to unification with North Cyprus in 2004. It doesn't take 40 years to agree on something. There is more chance of Turkey and Greece agreeing to unite than South and North Cyprus.

Perhaps you should change your stance in Cyprus or wait on the doorstep of the E.U. for an eternity.


So? International recognition is not a prerequisite to be country.

Yes, but it is a prerequisite for being taken seriously...

[Hayalet]

We shall see what is going to happen in 50 years from now. For the moment your very own 'rrrDOGan has been panicked and requests from Turks to start having more children:

You are shitting your pants and we have noticed dear, even though we don't have more children per family than you...
Erdogan is addressing the entire population of Turkey there, stupid. And Kurds certainly make better use of government benefits for the newborns than the ethnic Turks.

[Petros Houhoulis]

It looks to me that the Kurds do not require 'rrrDOGans' advice at all, and 'rrrDOGan was not talking to them in the first place anyway:

http://www.ibtimes.com/kurdish-majority-turkey-within-one-generation-705466


A Kurdish Majority In Turkey Within One Generation?
ANALYSIS
By Palash Ghosh
on May 06 2012 1:32 PM

Turkey is emerging as an economic superpower in the Eastern Mediterranean and Middle East with greater influence in regional politics. Promoting itself as a “model Muslim democracy,” and widely admired by other Middle Eastern nations, Turkey now faces a novel problem that Europe has long contended with: a falling birth rate.

Since the 1990s, Turkey’s fertility rate has steadily declined, due to, among other factors, rising household incomes, expanded access to higher education for women and increased birth control practices.

“The use of birth-control methods has increased in Turkey a lot, but that is not the only reason for the decline in population,” an obstetrician named Ka?an Kocatepe told Hürriyet Daily News, a Turkish newspaper.

“Many women want to have a successful career. That’s why the maternity age has increased, as women have started giving birth to their first child in their 30s.”

Indeed, Dr. ?smet Koç, a demographer at Hacettepe University in Ankara, warned that Turkey's fertility rate is now below 2.1, the replacement level, which suggests the population will eventually decline.

The fertility level in more prosperous western Turkey is now about 1.5 -- roughly the same as in western Europe.

The number of children produced by the average Turkish woman has plunged to two from three over just the past two decades, coincident with Turkey's rise as an economic power.

But there is a wrinkle to this whole phenomenon.

The Kurdish community of Turkey, which currently represents at least 15 percent of the population and dominates the southeastern region, has such a high birth rate, that some observers – most prominently Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan -- believe Kurds could become a majority in Turkey within two generations.

The proposed scenario is somewhat similar to the Palestinian situation in Israel, where Arabs could become the dominant ethnic group in the 'Jewish State' within 30 years or so; or the southwestern United States, where Hispanics and Mexican-Americans are likely to become the majority within a few decades.

According to Turkish government statistics, the average Kurdish woman in Turkey gives birth to about four children, more than double the rate for other Turkish mothers.

Thus, Turkey is facing a demographic time-bomb – Kurds, who tend to be concentrated in the country's impoverished southeast and are generally poorer and less educated, could conceivably outnumber Turks within about 30 years should present patterns persist.

Erdogan seems to be certain this will happen.

If we continue the existing trend, [the year] 2038 will mark disaster for us, Erdogan warned in May 2010.

The prime minister, who has repeatedly called on Turkish couples to have three children and even suggested financially rewarding such fecundity, once declared: “Our population is getting older. Right now we are proud of our young population, but if we don’t pull these numbers up, Turkey will be in a difficult position by 2038.”

Some Turkish academics scoff at Erdogan's solutions as unrealistic.

Cem Behar, an economics professor at Istanbul’s Bo?azici University, told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review: “It’s clear that Turkey is going to face a decline in the growth rate of its population. Yet you cannot address such an issue by telling people to have more children.”

Behar added: “There is no family policy in Turkey. And I don’t think anyone is going to have more children just because [Erdo?an] told them to do so. If the government really wants to promote having more children, it needs to prepare the necessary conditions for it, such as lowering taxes for those families or strengthening pre-school education.”

A rapidly rising Kurdish population would pose sharp problems and challenges for the Turkish state and society.

Kurds have long faced discrimination, deprivation, even state-sponsored violence, throughout their long and epic residence in Turkey. As such, many Kurds seek a separate homeland, or at the least, autonomous self-rule in the southeast.

Kurds represent a dominant and highly contentious theme in Turkish politics.

For many years, it was, in fact, illegal for Kurds to speak their own language, use Kurdish names, play Kurdish music, etc. – part of a comprehensive attempt by Ankara to wipe out the separate ethnic identity of the Kurds. Indeed, some Turks regarded Kurds simply as 'Mountain Turks.'

The Kurdish Workers Party (PKK), a Marxist militant movement which Turkey, the European Union and the U.S. brand as a terrorist group, has fought for a separatist nation for decades. The PKK's periodic conflicts with the Turkish military have cost tens of thousands of lives on both sides – seemingly with no resolution in sight.

Of course, many, perhaps most, Kurds in Turkey do not support the PKK and seek to assimilate with mainstream Turkish society – while retaining their distinct Kurdish culture, language and customs.

Now, with the Kurds having more babies than the Turks, will Kurds really become a majority in a country where they have long suffered abuse and deprivation? And if that were to happen, how would that affect the Kurds' status in Turkey?

International Business Times spoke with an expert on Turkey and demographics to explore this topic.

Dr. Tino Sanandaji is a PhD in Public Policy at the University of Chicago who does research on demographic change and its link to policy.

IB TIMES: Is the overall fertility rate in Turkey declining because the country is becoming wealthier, household incomes are rising and more women are using birth control methods?

SANANDAJI: Yes, sooner or later this happens in all industrialized countries -- parents prefer to have fewer children and invest more time and resources on them rather than having a large family.

IB TIMES: The birth rate for Kurds is more than double that of Turks. Is this due to the fact that Kurds are generally poorer and less educated?

SANANDAJI: Poorer, less educated and more rural. However, other factors should not be ruled out since low-income Kurdish women also have higher birth rates than low-income Turkish women.

IB TIMES: Prime Minister Erdogan warned that Kurds could become a majority in Turkey by 2038. Is this a realistic prediction?

SANANDAJI: No, that is impossible. Demographic change is a slow process even when birth rates differ sharply, because so many generations are already born and will be around for decades.

In the 1930s, the Kurds constituted about 9 percent of the population of Turkey, and though they had higher birth rates than the Turks it still took until the 1990s until they reached the 18 percent level.

Since it takes a long time, underlying forces can change in the meanwhile. Therefore, we should be careful about extrapolating current trends into the future. Nor can demographic trends be dismissed using the equally silly argument that since demographic predictions were sometimes wrong in the past, all predictions are always wrong in the future. Plenty of predictions turned out to be accurate.

This is a sensitive topic to some. When people read that the population share of their “tribe” is shrinking there is often a primal psychological response of fear, anger or denial, and wide exaggerations in both directions.

IB TIMES: In the event Kurds become a majority in Turkey, will that render the Kurdish nationalist and separatist movements irrelevant and moot?

SANANDAJI: If history is any guide, that development would raise tensions with the Kurdish separatist movement, because they will be more likely to win a democratic or military struggle once they are the majority population.

IB TIMES: If the Kurds are becoming more assimilated, why is this even a problem? If the Ankara government does not even classify Kurds as a separate ethnic group, why would they even care about their higher birth rates?

SANANDAJI: If Kurds are slowly assimilating but growing their population share rapidly, the net effect might still be more voters with an ethnic Kurdish identity. Once Kurds realize time is working on their side, they might become less willing to abandon their national identity, anticipating that if they hold on long enough their sheer numbers will change the balance of power.

If the rate of assimilation into a national Turkish identity is sufficiently rapid, Turkey will not necessarily break apart. But Turkey will likely be a different country in many other ways if Kurds become the majority.

IB TIMES: What, if anything, is the Turkish government doing to prevent these demographic trends?

SANANDAJI: One choice is to try to stabilize the Turkish birth rate, though no country I am aware of has successfully done this in modern times.

A second alternative for the government is to convince the Kurds in Turkey to accept the Turkish national identity, making the population issue less important.

Another option is to lower the Kurdish birth rate by promoting economic development, education and women’s' health in Kurdish areas.

But if current trends continue for generations, Turks might eventually reach a point when they must reluctantly decide between keeping a smaller Turkish nation state or risk becoming the minority population in a Kurdish-majority Turkey.

http://www.jinsa.org/fellowship-program/david-p-goldman/demographic-sources-turkeys-foreign-policy-crisis


Fertility levels of Turks and Kurds are significantly different. At current fertility rates, Turkish-speaking women will give birth to an average of 1.88 children during their reproductive years. The corresponding figure is 4.07 children for Kurdish women. Kurdish women will have almost 2 children more than Turkish women...Results show that despite intensive internal migration movements in the last 50 years, strong demographic differentials exist between Turkish and Kurdish-speaking populations, and that the convergence of the two groups does not appear to be a process under way. Turks and Kurds do indeed appear to be actors of different demographic regimes, at different stages of demographic and health transition processes. [i]

The decline of Turkish fertility, along with rapidly falling fertility in all Muslim countries that display high literary rates, is a stealth phenomenon that only recently has drawn widespread attention. I review the data in my book How Civilizations Die and why Islam is Dying, Too (Regnery 2011). More recently, Nicholas Eberstadt and Poorvah Shah reviewed the data in a study in Policy Review. Muslim demographics have important strategic implications for a number of countries. Turkey's situation, though, is unique in the extreme differences between Turkish-speaking and Kurdish-speaking fertility in Anatolia.

Prime Minister Erdoğan has made the revival of Turkey's flagging birth rate a major political issue. Zaman reported during last year's election campaign that he

... lashed out at his chief rival party for promoting birth control for years, reiterating his call for at least three children. Erdoğan, who has long claimed that for a healthy and vibrant society people must have at least three children, said the Western societies are now collapsing because of aging and urged his supporters in a campaign rally in Ankara on Monday not to 'trap into this game.' They [the opposition CHP] have inspired this nation with birth control for having aging population on the world stage," Erdoğan told at the rally, adding that if population continues to increase at this level, Turkey will be among aging nations by 2038.
Erdoğan is focused on a critical weakness that Western analysts for the most part have overlooked. Within one generation, at current rates, half of Turkey's military-age population will be born in households where Kurdish is the first language. The Turkish government's hope of integrating the Kurds under the broader Islamic tent have failed, and the new ambitions of Syria's Kurds expose the underlying weakness of Turkey's strategic position and the likely effectiveness of its diplomacy.

It also calls into question the presumption that Turkey is America's critical ally in the region. If Turkey is likely to be the loser on demographic grounds, American planners need to consider alternatives to reliance on Ankara for regional policy. If a Kurdish state is inevitable for demographic and other reasons, America may do best to place an early bet on the winner.

[i] Ismet Koc, Attila Hancioglu and Alanur Cavlin, "Demographic Differentials and Demographic Integration of Turkish and KurdishPopulations in Turkey," in Population Research and Policy Review, Volume 27, Number 4, pp. 447-457.

http://vvanwilgenburg.blogspot.gr/2009/03/stratfor-kurds-no-demographic-challenge.html


Stratfor: Kurds no demographic challenge for Turkey

Photo: Some Turkish nationalists fear that Kurds will gradually take over Turkey ( Turksolu.org)

Stratfor provided an interesting analysis of Turkish-Russian relatiosn and predicts eventually Russia and Turkey will clash in the long term.
Russia is moving aggressively to extend its influence throughout the former Soviet empire, while Turkey is rousing itself from 90 years of post-Ottoman isolation. Both are clearly ascendant powers, and it would seem logical that the more the two bump up against one other, the more likely they will gird for yet another round in their centuries-old conflict. But while that may be true down the line, the two Eurasian powers have sufficient strategic incentives to work together for now. - Stratfor
But the Stratfor authors also made a mistake:
"Only the Kurds remain, and they do not pose a demographic challenge to the Turks. While Turkey exhibits many of the same demographic tendencies as other advanced developing states — namely, slowing birthrates and a steadily aging population — there is no major discrepancy between Turk and Kurdish birthrates, so the Turks should continue to comprise more than 80 percent of the country’s population for some time to come."
According to an article about Turkish/Kurdish demographics based mainly on statistics of the Turkish Demographic and Health Survey (TDHS-2003), the birthrate of Kurds is much higher then that of Turks:
"Fertility levels of Turks and Kurds are significantly different. At current fertility rates, Turkish-speaking women will give birth to an average of 1.88 children during their reproductive years. The corresponding figure is 4.07 children for Kurdish women. Kurdish women will have almost 2 children more than Turkish women."
According to the leftist nationalistic newspaper Turk Solu there is actually a threat that Kurds eventually take over Turkey. "There is no Kurdish problem, there is a Kurdish invasion." Some Turkish nationalists even argued that Turkish woman should make more children, to counter the Kurdish high birth rate.

Posted 19th March 2009 by Wladimir van Wilgenburg

...And the Turks too are among the most talented at leaching Western European countries of their government benefits...

[Hayalet]

It looks to me that the Kurds do not require 'rrrDOGans' advice at all,
While it is remarkably higher than the ethnic Turkish fertility, Kurdish fertility is decreasing as well. It is expected that the population of Turkey will stop growing between 2045-2050. Erdogan occasionally makes populist remarks to overturn this fate, but they aren't very likely to succeed. Needless to say, the idea that 10-15 million Kurds could overtake 55-60 million Turks in one or two generations is nonsense.


and 'rrrDOGan was not talking to them in the first place anyway
Yes, he was. I don't know what makes foreigners think Erdogan is a Turkish nationalist. Many among the Turkish nationalist circles doubt he is an ethnic Turk to begin with, and claim he is Georgian instead. Some of his chief lieutenants are Kurdish and his party is more popular among Kurds than among Turks.

[Petros Houhoulis]

While it is remarkably higher than the ethnic Turkish fertility, Kurdish fertility is decreasing as well. It is expected that the population of Turkey will stop growing between 2045-2050. Erdogan occasionally makes populist remarks to overturn this fate, but they aren't very likely to succeed. Needless to say, the idea that 10-15 million Kurds could overtake 55-60 million Turks in one or two generations is nonsense.

Wait and see. It looks certain though that the Kurds live in poorer areas and shall keep living in poorer areas in the foreseeable future, and thus they shall have more children.


Yes, he was. I don't know what makes foreigners think Erdogan is a Turkish nationalist. Many among the Turkish nationalist circles doubt he is an ethnic Turk to begin with, and claim he is Georgian instead. Some of his chief lieutenants are Kurdish and his party is more popular among Kurds than among Turks.

Who gives a shit about 'rrrDOGans' ancestry. What should concern you is that he is a barking idiot...

[Azamat]

Some of his chief lieutenants are Kurdish and his party is more popular among Kurds than among Turks.These were the electoral results in 2002:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/2002_Turkish_general_election_english.svg

The DEHAP was the BDP's equivalent at that time. As we can see most of the Kurdish provinces voted for the Kurdish party accordingly. In recent elections the AKP has been known to manipulate the votes, bribing people to vote for them or using the police and security forces to pressure people to vote for them. I am not denying that Islamism, and hence the AKP's appeal, was on the rise in Kurdish regions in recent years(as it has been throughout all of Turkey and the Middle-East), but even so, voting results for Kurdish regions should be taken with a grain of salt as to their true political allegiance since the significance of voting for Kurds is merely how a government would affect their environment and conditions as (unwilling) members of Turkish society, rather than entire the issue of Kurdish self-rule. It's a common fallacy for people to point out that Kurds may not vote for Kurdish parties and then claim that they "do not support Kurdish secession and want to be part of Turkey".

[Hayalet]

These were the electoral results in 2002:
2002 is forever ago now. And you can't really tell much from that map, as the provinces are colored by relative majority and about 48% of votes were wasted because of the 10% threshold for the parliament.


It's a common fallacy for people to point out that Kurds may not vote for Kurdish parties and then claim that they "do not support Kurdish secession and want to be part of Turkey".
Actually, Turkish Kurds do act like they are citizens of the unitary Republic of Turkey, as they keep migrating to the ethnically predominantly Turkish urban centers in the west regardless of whether they vote for AKP or BDP.

[MarkyMark]

Population Warfare. This is the type of warfare similar to how Arabs operate. They settle in some land that did not originally belong to them and they reproduce at much, much higher rates than the natives to became the majority. That's when they start going on about how they are obviously the natives of that land, because "how else would they be the majority?". This is the same type of action going on Syria and Leb where the ethnic arameans(mostly christians but even a few muslims from maloula and other small villages) have maybe 2 or 3 kids per family while the arabs have 3 or 4 wives per man and for each wife 5 children and upwards. Now for the analogy replace Aramean with Turk and Arab with Kurd. The same thing is happening in Europe where muslims of any kind reproduce at high rates.

[Azamat]

2002 is forever ago now."Forever ago" is a very generous way of describing the changes in political circumstances that have taken place since. Do you hold it conceivable that all those Kurdish AKP-voters who formerly voted for Kurdish parties are suddenly no longer sympathetic to Kurdish nationalism, under a time-lapse of less than a decade?

Coming now to your next point, Kurds will vote for whatever party they believe is likely to change the society they have to live in for the better as citizens of Turkey, not as Kurds with an allegiance to Kurdish separatism, the profoundness of which is repeatedly revealed at mass celebrations and demonstrations.

Actually, Turkish Kurds do act like they are citizens of the unitary Republic of Turkey, as they keep migrating to the ethnically predominantly Turkish urban centers in the west regardless of whether they vote for AKP or BDP.How does this banal observation amount to a refutation of my point in any way?

Of course they "act like" they are citizens of Turkey because being active participants of Turkish society is the only practical way to get bread on the table, get an education or be at least baseline productive. If you want to prove that Kurds are content with being citizens of Turkey and would rather not form an independent state in current Turkish territory, then have your government conduct a referendum or query in the Kurdish regions to attest this. When such a referendum was conducted in Iraqi Kurdistan, 98.88% of the respondents voted "yes" to the idea of Kurdish secession from Iraq. Until then, the preponderance of evidence that is available indicates a clear preference for Kurdish secession amongst your country's Kurdish citizens.

[Hayalet]

Do you hold it conceivable that all those Kurdish AKP-voters who formerly voted for Kurdish parties are suddenly no longer sympathetic to Kurdish nationalism, under a time-lapse of less than a decade?
I don't care what they are sympathetic to. If they vote for AKP en masse, I'm gonna say AKP is popular among them.


Of course they "act like" they are citizens of Turkey because being active participants of Turkish society is the only practical way to get bread on the table, get an education or be at least baseline productive.
If they are migrating from their "homeland" to live among Turks, I'm gonna say secession isn't among their list of priorities.


If you want to prove that Kurds are content with being citizens of Turkey and would rather not form an independent state in current Turkish territory, then have your government conduct a referendum in the Kurdish regions to attest this.
What do I care? Why haven't BDP people called for this referendum instead of publicly renouncing the idea of secession?

[Azamat]

I don't care what they are sympathetic to. If they vote for AKP en masse, I'm gonna say AKP is popular among them.And in doing so you're ignoring that which actually matters and overemphasizing that which doesn't.


If they are migrating from their "homeland" to live among Turks, I'm gonna say secession isn't among their list of priorities.If there is any place where secession from Turkey is to be forged at all, it's amongst Turks. You don't typically become an engineer or doctor in Turkey without attending a university situated in ethnically Turkish regions, or earn lots of money to finance the PKK with without ever setting foot in the more prosperous, western regions of the country.

The majority of those Kurds who are flooding Istanbul are villagers your army at some point expelled and who found no Kurdish city with sufficient residential capacity to accommodate them afterward.


What do I care? Why haven't BDP people called for this referendum instead of publicly renouncing the idea of secession?Publicly renouncing the idea of secession is pretty much imperative to existing as a legal political party in Turkey, let alone is calling for such a referendum an option.

But the PKK graffiti that dominates the back-alleys of Amed and every other Kurdish city betrays these slights, and your government knows it.

A referendum will have to be an initiative taken by the Turkish state, and given that the state maintains that Kurds want to be a part of this country, it'd say it's an obligation of theirs.

[Hayalet]

If there is any place where secession from Turkey is to be forged at all, it's amongst Turks. You don't typically become an engineer or doctor in Turkey without attending a university situated in ethnically Turkish regions, or earn lots of money to finance the PKK with without ever setting foot in the more prosperous, western regions of the country.
Excuses, excuses. If they thought they were a separate nation, seeking independence for their "homeland", you would expect they would stay where they were born and stick to their own.


The majority of those Kurds who are flooding Istanbul are villagers your army at some point expelled and who found no Kurdish city with sufficient residential capacity to accommodate them afterward.
No, they aren't. Destroying villages is a thing of the '90s, yet the Kurdish migration to the west has been steady.


Publicly renouncing the idea of secession is pretty much imperative to existing as a legal political party in Turkey
No, it isn't. They can always keep quiet instead of making a comment in one way or another.


A referendum will have to be an initiative taken by the Turkish state, and given that the state maintains that Kurds want to be a part of this country, it'd say it's an obligation of theirs.
This defies logic. You don't need a referendum to maintain the status quo.

[Azamat]

Excuses, excuses. If they thought they were a separate nation, seeking independence for their "homeland", you would expect they would stay where they were born and stick to their own.That is your value judgement. Kurds in their current condition cannot afford to keep to their principles, they have to be pragmatic and rational.



No, they aren't. Destroying villages is a thing of the '90s, yet the Kurdish migration to the west has been steady.The appropriation of villages(and expulsion of their inhabitants) for the Korucu is still an ongoing thing, or at least was until the ceasefire.


No, it isn't. They can always keep quiet instead of making a comment in one way or another.That is the strategy the KRG has employed, and Turkey has been consistently threatening the KRG over the prospect of their independence. How is a legal political party in Turkey to survive without being forced to express its objection to Kurdish secession from Turkey at some point, especially a Kurdish party?

Nonetheless, the BDP does not represent the Kurdish movement since such a function is precluded by being a political party in Turkey. Their purpose is to ameliorate the status of Kurdish people in Turkey, to make the situation for the last generations of Kurds to live in that country a little more bearable.

If you're going respond by pointing out the PKK as well dropped their calls for independence, my answer is that I disagree with the PKK on this matter, and so do the majority of Kurds from Turkey and elsewhere. The PKK is not a democratic organization, they do what the party top tells them to, and this is very unfortunate I'll admit.



This defies logic. You don't need a referendum to maintain the status quo.You and the Turkish government maintain that Kurds do not wish to secede from Turkey, therefore the burden is on the state to attest this empirically.