Scotland's 'victim history' is challenged

[Beorn]

FOR more than a generation he told Scotland's story. English by birth and Canadian by upbringing, the late John Prebble defined the nation more eloquently than any native had. But not, the country's most respected history scholar claims today, more accurately.

Professor Tom Devine, of Edinburgh University, accuses Prebble of forging a myth of Scottish emigration as a Highland experience, of writing books of "victim history".

Writing in today's Scotland on Sunday, Devine seeks to scotch the myth of many overseas Scots, that their ancestors left their country wrapped in Heiland plaid and cursing their English-speaking oppressors.

Devine writes: "The immensely popular books of 'victim history' by the Canadian writer, John Prebble in the 1960s and 1970s, on such themes as Culloden and the Clearances, have helped to forge the myth of Scottish emigration as a Highland experience, a diaspora of the clans.

"It remains a belief shared by many Scots and overwhelmingly so by the Scottish diaspora in North America today who base their 'history' of the nation on Prebble and similar authors and remain quite unaware of the huge advances in the transformed understanding of Scotland's complex past made over the past few decades."

Devine is writing as thousands prepare to attend The Gathering, the biggest ever meeting of foreign Scots.

The historian will give a keynote speech this Saturday to the Scottish Diaspora Forum at Holyrood, looking at the past, present and future of the diaspora, and trying to put the astonishing history of mass migration into its true context.

Most of the diaspora, he will tell those gathered, will be the descendents of the lowland Scots who decided to make a better life abroad, not of Gaels thrown off their land in the Clearances.

Prebble, however, remains incredibly popular with his books on the histories of the Clearances, the Glen Coe massacre and Culloden forming the mainstay of every tourist bookshop in the country.

Prebble, was inspired by his youth in a Canadian settlement dominated by Scottish expatriates.

Source (http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland/Scotland39s-39victim-history39-is-.5473068.jp)

Scottish parliament (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/nmcentre/news/news-05/pa05-063.htm)


It reminds me of the discussion I had with a Scotsman some years go.

The basis of his argument was that the English(ie: the British Crown) had done imaginably terrible things to the Scots and this is why the Scots hated us English(ie: The British).

After having listened to his spittle blasting diatribe he learnt to heart from his father's table, I asked him one question: "How did the English people fair up in all of this time you Scots were suffering? Were they living in castles all dining on fine wine and juicy breasts of a well stuffed turkey?"

He shut up at that point, and most people do when they realise that they aren't the only victims, and that other nations have put their heads down and got on with life instead bleating on like drunken whores in the night.

[Paleo]

shit happens. :bullet puke

The English powers did terrible things too the scots:(, but they weren't much better towards their own common people either:(

[Beorn]

The English powers did terrible things too the scots

Scots did very terrible things to the Scots. That never seems to enter the minds of Scottish Nationalists.

[Gooding]

According to certain elderly members of my mother's family, the Campbells destroyed Scotland by feuding with older clans and using English assistance every chance they got. The Campbells were rewarded and the English took Scotland after the Battle of Culloden in 1745.

[Skandi]

Some Aberdeen council records from the period of the clearances are still withheld, "for the good of the people" it is believed that they show how the council and local landowners sold the people before shipping them off.

[Beorn]

Exactly! The tales that were spun to create and extend a distorted image of the English as the oppressors of Scotland really did successfully achieve what it set out to do. Even today the tales get wheeled out and driven home for the people to chew on.

I will always hold my hands up and declare the actions of England and then Britain in Ireland as atrocious, and will also accept the same for Wales, but for Scotland I can't see why I should.

[Jarl]

Scots did very terrible things to the Scots. That never seems to enter the minds of Scottish Nationalists.

Like the Glencoe massacre. However, in this case the catalyst was the English revolution of 1688, which gave rise to Jacobtisim. Although Scots were directly responsible for the massacre, orders were signed by Sir Thomas Livingstone and King William. All the Jacobite civil wars were ultimately a result of the English decision to give throne to William of Orange. Even among the most patriocitc nations, there are always individuals who collaborate. Definitely the rivlary between clans existed long before that, however the English used the "divide and rule" strategy.

[Gooding]

Not to mention that the Jacobites were loyal to the Royal House of Stuart, which was a British dynasty of Scottish origin that actually helped Scotland play a premiere role in the creation of the British Empire, before the Hanovers.Even afterwards, England and Scotland had a somewhat unequal partnership, but it was a partnership.Rather like Austria-Hungary, where the Austrians ruled and the Hungarians had a pretty high place beside them, though not on absolutely equal footing. Yes, I'm aware of the Battle of Culloden, the Aftermath, the flight of the Clans to the Colonies, from Nova Scotia to Cape Fear, North Carolina, the McDonald vs. Campbell feud, the "lobsterbacks" and the Massacre of Glencoe. From speaking with my father's people, I also know that the English looked the other way in the Colonies when the clansmen wore their Highland dress and spoke their Gaidhlig language and the English and Scots in Ulster formed an alliance based on their common British heritage and Protestant religion. Scots such as David Livingstone worked as British missionaries in Africa and Robert Burns and Sir Walter Scott were but two who made substantial contributions to English literature. Queen Victoria was the British monarch who made Scotland quite popular and romantic during her reign.

[Black Turlogh]

I will always hold my hands up and declare the actions of England and then Britain in Ireland as atrocious, and will also accept the same for Wales, but for Scotland I can't see why I should.

Even here the Irish aren't free of guilt. It's no secret that no few of the atrocities were committed by the Irish [Catholics] employed in the British military against other Irish [Catholics] during the Rebellion of 1798. It goes to show that history's never black and white, and to suggest otherwise is, in the case of Ireland, a gross underestimation of the complexity of our country and people.

A side note, I don't think the Irish are renown for claiming to be victims. Not that you were suggesting that we are. Just to be clear about it.

[Osweo]

All the Jacobite civil wars were ultimately a result of the English decision to give throne to William of Orange.
AHEM?!
Pretty much a London decision, more like! Rich Merchants and Bankers of the City Corporation, for the most part. Very modern...

There were plenty of English Jacobites, too, don't forget. My Manchester was crawling with them, though the Hannoverian party were never completely shouted down. The Stuarts' Catholic proclivities made it too easy for the Hannoverians, though. They deserved the boot.

[007]

A side note, I don't think the Irish are renown for claiming to be victims.

You seem like a sensible bloke and may not be guilty of it yourself but I'm afraid they are, mate.

[Paleo]

Scots did very terrible things to the Scots. That never seems to enter the minds of Scottish Nationalists.

not really, its pretty well known that the clans fought each other as well. i assume that people know this.

sometimes i wonder what nationalist you speak too, because they seem to be very ignorant of some of scotland's most basic history.

[Beorn]

not really, its pretty well known that the clans fought each other as well. i assume that people know this.

I'm not talking of that though. I'm talking more about the quickness of laying the blame for the events such as the clearances.
It's never a question of who committed such crimes, and what motives they had to do so, but how many times can we call the English bastards for what they did.


sometimes i wonder what nationalist you speak too, because they seem to be very ignorant of some of scotland's most basic history.

I've explained what I did mean just above this comment, but did you never used to read my little tete-a-tetes with Bebo's finest Scottish Internet Warriors? :D

I've met lots of Scots in my time. My work ensured that. I know true Scottish nationalists. :)

[Paleo]

I'm not talking of that though. I'm talking more about the quickness of laying the blame for the events such as the clearances.
It's never a question of who committed such crimes, and what motives they had to do so, but how many times can we call the English bastards for what they did

its understandable for scots to feel robbed form our cultural land and clan system, but any Scot who actually learned of the clearances, knows that more blame lies on the chiefs, who literary sold them out. Their was case's when the new English landlords where right assholes to the local highlanders.


but did you never used to read my little tete-a-tetes with Bebo's finest Scottish Internet Warriors? :D

I've not got a scooby what your talking about. :confused:

[Beorn]

I've not got a scooby what your talking about. :confused:

As I said in the rep comment, perhaps you and I didn't know each other then, but I did have a quick look to reminisce on old times and found most of the Scots I fought with have been deleted or not logged back on.

http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3065886678
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3042381909
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=2127371361
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=1799407903

They were class days. :D No quarter asked and none given. We would infiltrate their groups and change them to English groups and vice versa.

Then Bebo became Gay and all authoritarian. :(

[Paleo]

As I said in the rep comment, perhaps you and I didn't know each other then, but I did have a quick look to reminisce on old times and found most of the Scots I fought with have been deleted or not logged back on.

http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3065886678
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3042381909
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=2127371361
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=1799407903

They were class days. :D No quarter asked and none given. We would infiltrate their groups and change them to English groups and vice versa.

Then Bebo became Gay and all authoritarian. :(

when most young scots get in to politics, it just head first in to the shit they feel most passionate towards (because schools teach politics really poorly), which leads them to say allot of dumb stuff. admittedly myself have argued and believed some rather embarrassing ideals.

theirs nothing really wrong with Nationalism, its just some idiots that latch on to it.

bebos just gotten really boring too me, that's why i deleted my account every so often.

thanks for the rep;)

[Black Turlogh]

You seem like a sensible bloke and may not be guilty of it yourself but I'm afraid they are, mate.

What I meant to say is that any sense of self-pity is not a defining quality of the Irish character, nor has it ever been. It's rather, in my humble opinion, that we are known for being eternal optimists even in the most insufferable of circumstances.

[007]

What about that Celtic melancholy? :p

[Creeping Death]

Scotland and the destruction of the Gael Scot is another example of British Multiculturalist terrorism, Lowland 'Scots' are English planters. The native Gaels retreated into the Highlands too eventually suffer the highland clearances.

[Loki]

Scotland and the destruction of the Gael Scot is another example of British Multiculturalist terrorism, Lowland 'Scots' are English planters. The native Gaels retreated into the Highlands too eventually suffer the highland clearances.

It is those Anglo-Saxon genes which make Lowland Scots the most respected, intelligent and influential of all Scots.

[Creeping Death]

It is those Anglo-Saxon genes which make Lowland Scots the most respected, intelligent and influential of all Scots.
They are the only 'Scots' , the Gaels all retreated into Ireland.

[Beorn]

Scotland and the destruction of the Gael Scot is another example of British Multiculturalist terrorism

You seem to forget where the Gaels came from originally, Brian, and how hard the native Scottish fought to expel them from their lands.

Scottish Gaelic is a well entrenched alien in Scotland. It was only through diplomacy and genocide that it became a dominant language in Scotland.

Please, Brian, before you speak about the history and heritage of a nation which doesn't belong to you, would you please at least have the temerity to educate and understand it?

[SwordoftheVistula]

Aren't the Oranges, Hanovers and Saxe-Goth-Coburgs more closely related to the Anglo-Saxon English than the Stuarts and other Scots? After all, these are the places the English originally came from :thumb001:

[007]

Remember that Lowland Scotland used to be part of the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria and Scots is the closest living language to English.