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Mraz
11-20-2012, 12:54 AM
The Vlachs in Bosnia

by Noel Malcolm

Editor's Note: The turmoil in the Balkan Peninsula in recent years has led some of the world's sharpest minds to focus on the history of that tragic region. Their discoveries are of interest to all who are concerned with the Balkans, including the Vlachs, as the following excerpt shows.

Although there are many recorded cases of Catholics being converted to Orthodoxy in sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Bosnia, it is clear that this spread of the Orthodox Church did not happen by conversion alone. In the areas where Orthodoxy made its most striking gains, especially in northern Bosnia, the same period saw a large influx of settlers from Orthodox lands. It was evidently deliberate policy on the part of the Ottomans to fill up territory which had been depopulated, either by war or by plague. There are signs in the earliest defters (Turkish tax records) of groups of Christian herdsman, identifiable as Vlachs, being settled in devasted areas of eastern Hercegovinia.

In the defters of the 1470s and 1480s they can be seen spreading into central and north-central Bosnia, in the regions round Visoko and Maglaj: soon after 1476, for example, roughly 800 Vlach families were settled in the Maglaj district, accompanied by two Orthodox priests. The number of Vlachs in north-central and north-east Bosnia continued to grow over the next fifty years, and they began to spread into north-west Bosnia too.

During the wars of the early sixteenth century more areas of northern Bosnia became depopulated as Catholics fled into Hapsburg territory. Since it was particularly important for the Ottomans not to leave land empty close to the military border, there were large new influxes of Vlach settlers from Hercegovina and Serbia. Further movements into this area took place throughout the sixteenth century; plague, as well as war, left demographic gaps which needed to be filled.

As early as 1530, when the Habsburg official Benedict Kuripe?ic travelled through Bosnia, he was able to report that the country was inhabited by three peoples, One was the Turks, who ruled "with great tyranny" over the Christians. Another was "the old Bosnians, who are of the Roman Catholic faith." And the third were "Serbs, who call themselves Vlachs . . . They came from Smederovo and Belgrade." So important was the Vlach element in the creation of this Bosnian Orthodox population that, three centuries later, the term "Vlach" was still being used in Bosnia to mean "member of the Orthodox Church."

Of course, non-Vlach Serbians and Hercegovinans also took part in this process of settlement. The problem of distinguishing them, and of saying what the term "Vlach" meant during this period, will be discussed below. But it is clear that Vlachs, as a distinctive ethnic and cultural group, played a major role. The Vlachs were particularly suitable for the Ottoman government's purposes, not only because they were mobile (their typical occupations were shepherding, horse-breeding and organizing transport for traders), but also because they had a strong military tradition. Special arrangements were made to induce them to move to the Ottoman-Habsburg border: the tax on sheep was reduced for those living in the border region, and their leaders were granted large timars (land holdings). Although they received no military salary, they were entitled to carry arms and expected to fulfil a military role; in place of a salary, they were permitted to plunder enemy territory. Known by the terms "martolos" or "vojnuk", they became the most feared element in the Ottoman military machine.

At the same time, Vlachs and Serbs who had fled northwards from the Ottoman advance in the fifteenth century, and who had similar military traditions, began to be organized by the Habsburgs on the other side of this fluid and shifting border. Vlachs from inside Bosnia also crossed the border to join them; the three reasons given by Benedict Kuripesic for the depopulation of Bosnia in the early sixteenth century were plague, the devshirme (collection of male Christian children), and the flight of the Serb-Vlach martolosi across the border. In 1527, after his election as King of Hungary and Croatia, Ferdinand I of Austria established a formal system of land-holdings and military duties for them. They were free of feudal obligations, permitted a share of booty, allowed to elect their own captains (vojvode) and magistrates (knezovi), and free to practise Orthodox Christianity. In this way, a special system of land tenure and military organization grew up under the Habsburgs, the so-called Militargrenze or vojna krajina (military border), which was eventually to involve a strip of territory twenty to sixty miles wide and a thousand miles long. The borderers or Grenzer on the north and north-western frontier of Bosnia, equally renowned for their military prowess and ferocity, were known as "Vlachs" or "Morlachs", and in 1630 their privileges were re-established by Ferdinand II in a document known as the "Law of the Vlachs" -- "Statuta Valachorum". Apart from the big set-piece compaigns, the military struggle between Ottoman and Habsburg on this border consisted mainly, year in, year out, of Vlachs fighting Vlachs.

Who were the Vlachs, and where, originally, did they come from? This is one of the most vexed questions in Balkan history. Vlachs are found today scattered over many parts of the Balkans; the biggest concentration is in the Pindus mountains of northern Greece, but there are also Vlachs in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania and Serbia, as well as the remnants of a Vlach population in the Istrian peninsula. Tradtionally they were herdsmen and shepherds practising a form of semi-nomadism called transhumance, in which flocks are moved, sometimes over great distances, between a regular summer pasture in the mountains and a regular winter pasture elsewhere. Some grew rich from the products of their pastoral life: wool, cheese and livestock. Many also became well known in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries as merchants and international traders.

These occupations have changed very little over the centuries; one twelfth-century Byzantine poem refers to Vlach cheese, which was famous in Constantinople, and to a Vlach cloak, the large black sleeveless cape (talagan or tambari) which can still be seen on the shoulders of Balkan shepherds. Other Byzantine writers refer to to the transhumance of the Vlachs, and medieval Serbian documents refer to them as shepherds and kjelatori -- a version of the Latin calator, "packhorse-leader", surviving in modern Vlach as calator, "traveller". Their only other distinctive occupation at that period was fighting: as hardy mountain-dwellers they were valued for their stamina, and their supply of horses made them useful adjuncts to any military campaign. The Byzantine authorities seem not to have trusted them very much, and generally used them as auxiliaries; sometimes they functioned as quite independent irregular troops. But there are also references to an entire regiment of Vlach infantry in an early fourteenth-century Byzantine army.

In the early records the Vlachs are often a rather shadowy, passing presense. They moved from area to area, speaking the local language and merging into the local population: there are references in late Byzantine documents to "Bulgaro-Albano-Vlachs" and even "Serbo-Albano-Bulgaro-Vlacs". Other names for them include the Byzantine Greek "Mavrovlachos", "black Vlach", from which "Morlach" was derived, and the modern Greek "Koutsovlachos", literally "limping Vlach", which may be a folk-etymologized version ot the Turkish kucuk eflak, "little Vlach". the word "Vlach" itself comes from a term used by the early Slavs for those peoples they encountered who spoke Latin or Latinate languages: hence also "Wallachian", "Walloon" and and (by a more roundabout application) "Welsh".

There is no definite historical record of the Vlachs before the late tenth century. Before that, the only evidence which can be drawn on is linguistic. The Vlach language is a Latin language, very closely related to Romanian: linguists call it "Macedo-Romanian", and the Romanian of Romania "Daco-Romanian". Obviously it was the product of the Roman colonization of the Balkans, and had a continuous existence there, being encountered by the Slavs on their arrival in the sixth and seventh centuries. But the Roman empire in the Balkans covered a wide area, and this has given plenty of scope for modern nationalist historians to locate the origins of the Vlachs in whichever area they prefer: thus Greeks claim that the Vlachs are Romanized Greeks, Bulgarians say they are Romanized Dacians (and/or descendants of Roman legionaries in Dacia: it does not matter which, so long as they were there before the arrival of the Hungarians).

By far the most picturesque -- and preposterous -- theory is the one put forward by the distinguished Croat historian Father Mandic, who, investigating the origins of the Vlach-Serbs of Bosnia, has concluded that they were originally from Morocco. This, he thinks, would explain the Byzantine Greek word "Mavrovlachos" or "black Vlach": a reference to their dark, Moorish faces. His theory is that they are the descendants of Roman legionaries from Mauretania (modern Morocco) who were stationed in the Balkans. It is true that large numbers of legionaries were settled there by the Romans; but they included, as we have seen, people from all over the Empire. Of the only two military colonies of Mauretanians mentioned by Mandic, one was near the Black Sea in Bessarabia, and the other was on the river Inn, near Vienna. That is hardly a sufficient starting-point for an entire population in the southern Balkans. Though it will of course delight modern anti-Serb nationalists in Bosnia to learn that the Bosnian Serbs are really Africans (and it certainly trumps the modern Serb prejudice towards Albanians, which tends to treat them as if they were dark-faced people from the Third World), the theory cannot possibly be correct.

The true origin of the Vlachs can be worked out, however, from the linguistic evidence. The Vlach-Romanian language (which was a single language until the two main forms of it began to diverge in the early middle ages) has a large number of special features in common with Albanian. These include fundamental matters of grammar and syntax, a number of special idioms, and a core vocabulary of words connected with pastoral life. Albanian, the one survivor of the languages of the Illyrian tribes, also contains a huge number of words borrowed from Latin, indicating close contact with a Latinized population throughout the Roman period. A combination of historical linguistics, the study of place-names and the history of the Roman Empire yields the fairly certain conclusion that the heartland where both these languages developed was an area stretching from northern Albania through Kosovo and south-central Serbia: it may also have included parts of northern Macedonia and western Bulgaria. Most of the Romanized and Latin-speaking population of this area (whose version of Latin was influenced by their own language, Illyrian) was dispersed, destroyed or assimilated by the invasions of the dark ages, especially those of the Slavs. A remnant which practised pastoralism was able to survive in the mountains, unaffected by the Slavs' takeover of settled agriculture; and in the more remote mountains (especially those of northern Albania) it was also in close contact with an even earlier remnant, which still spoke the Illyrian language, albeit a version of Illyrian which had become heavily infused with Latin after centuries of contact. That is the explanation accepted by nearly all the independent scholars who have studied this question; unfortunately the issue has been bedevilled by misplaced national pride on the part of Romanian writers, who cannot accept that the first speakers of Romanian came from south of the Danube.

Since this northern Albanian and southern Serbian region was the original heartland of the Vlachs, it is not surprising that they should have spread out into the nearby uplands of Hercegovina from an early period. From there they moved northwards through the mountainous Dalmatian hinterland, where they are found tending flocks (and bringing them down to the coastal lands in the winter) as early as the twelfth century. There are many references to them in the records of Ragusa and Zadar from the thirteenth to fifteenth centuries. Some of these pastoral Vlachs also penetrated as far as central Bosnia, where medieval place-names in the regions of Sarajevo and Travnik indicate their presence: Vlahinja, Vlaskovo, Vlasic. And many Vlach words connected with pastoral life were absorbed into Bosnian dialects of Serbo-Croat: trze, a late-born lamb, from the Vlach tirdziu, for example, or zarica, a type of cheese, from the Vlach zara. This last word is in fact a version of the Albanian word dhalle, "buttermilk" -- one of many details pointing to the pastoral symbiosis between Vlachs and Albanians, which continued to operate over a long period.

Most of these early Dalmatian and Bosnian Vlachs seem to have led quiet, secluded lives in the mountains. But in Hercegovina itself, where there was a large concentration of Vlachs, a more military and aggressive tradition developed. There are many complaints in Ragusan records of raids by these neighboring Vlachs during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. The Vlachs of Hercegovina were horse-breeders and caravan-leaders who, when they were not engaged in plunder, grew rich out of the trade between Ragusa and mines of Bosnia; some of them were probably responsible for commissioning the imposing Bosnian stone tombstones or stecci decorated with carvings of horsemen. Their trading links to the east must have brought them more into contact with the Vlach peoples of Serbia and Bulgaria, who had long traditions of military activity in the armies of the Byzantine emperors and Serbian kings.

One of the still unsolved mysteries of this story is the exact significance of the term "Morlach" ("Mavrovlachos", "black Vlach"), and how it came to be used in Hercegovina and Dalmatia. The obvious original meaning was a reference to the black cloaks worn by the Vlachs of the central Balkans (Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, northern Greece): they were also known at various times as "Karagounides" and "Crnogunjci", which literally mean "black-cloaks" in Turco-Greek and Serbian. Possibly a distinct wave of these Vlachs entered Hercegovina and Dalmatia, bringing the name (which they must have acquired in a Greek-speaking area) with them. It was quickly altered by Slav folk-etymology into "Morovlah", meaning "sea-Vlach" (i.e. coastal Vlach). From its use in Dalmatia the term later spread to the Vlachs in Croatia who filled the military border-zone or "krajina" round the north-western shoulder of Bosnia. "Morlacchi" became the standard Venetian name for these people, and region appears as "Morlacchia" on many seventeenth- and eighteenth-century maps. Because of their fearsome methods of irregular warfare the Morlachs acquired an evil reputation, and were regarded as primitive and brutal people. But all changed in the late eighteenth century when they were visited by an Italian priest, the Abbe Fortis. Inspired by the poetry of Ossian, and accompanied by another enthusiast for heroic poetry and folklore, the Professor of Modern History at Cambridge, Fortis travelled among the Morlachs of the Dalmatian hinterland in search of poetry and primitive virtue. He found both: "The sincerity, trust, and honesty of these poor people...in all the ordinary actions of their life, would be called simplicity and weakness among us," he declared. He also heard plenty of poetry, noting that "A Morlacco travels along the desert mountains singing, especially in the night time, the actions of ancient Slavi Kings, and barons, or some tragic event"; and he observed that "the Bosnian dialect, spoken by the inland Morlacchi, is more harmonious, in my opinion, that the littoral Illyrian". The poem he printed in translation, Hasanaganica ("The Wife of Hasan Aga"), was in fact a Bosnian Muslim song; a short tale of tragic love and misunderstanding, it became one of the most popular specimens of folk poetry in the whole of Europe, and was translated by Goethe, Byron, Sir Walter Scott, Mérimée, Pushkin and Lermontov.

Inside Bosnia, the term Morlach was not so much used for the martial Vlachs who went to fill the border areas under the Ottomans. These Vlachs, who came from both Hercegovina and Serbia, were called either Vlachs or martolosi. The latter word referred to their military status, and so could include non-Vlachs too: it was a version of the Greek word for an armed man, armatolos. The Vlachs of Bosnia and Hercegovina had their own system of social and military organization, which is clearly defined in the early Ottoman documents: at the top of each local community was a magistrate or knez (an old Slav term); under him was a mayor or primikur (from the Greek, primikerios); below him was a lagator (from the Greek alagator, the head of a military detachment), and the basic military group was a gonder (from the Greek kontarion, or lance.) As these terms show, the Ottomans simply inherited a system which had been established to serve the armies of the Byzantine Empire. Like the Byzantine and Serbian rulers before them, they gave the Vlachs special tax privileges in return for their military services: the leaders of the Vlachs were given timars and treated virtually as spahis (Turkish cavalrymen), and their people were freed from the basic tax on non-Muslims, the haraç. The Vlachs did, however, pay a special "Vlach tax" -- rusum-i eflak -- consisting mainly of a sheep and a lamb from every household on St. George's day each year. Since they were taxed differently, they were listed differently in the Turkish defters. This enables us to see that in the late fifteenth century there were at least 35,000 Vlachs in Hercegovina, and in the sixteenth century as many as 82,692 mainly Vlach households (including some non-Vlach martolosi, with similar privileges) in the Smederovo region to the south of Belgrade. (Many of the Vlachs in the eastern part of Hercegovina had themselves been moved there by the Turks to repopulate areas devasted by fighting in the 1460s.) These were the main reservoirs of population from which the depopulated lands of northern Bosnia were filled. And because, living in Hercegovina and Serbia, they had long been members of the Orthodox Church, they established the Orthodox presence in that part of Bosnia which has lasted ever since.

How distinct were these Vlachs from the surrounding Slavs? Clearly they had a different status and a different social-military organization. Those who had moved into northern Bosnia could not practise the tradition of long-distance transhumance, and the evidence of sixteenth-century Ottoman decrees on the Vlachs of Bosnia and Hercegovina indicates that the majority of Vlachs were now sedentary; but their way of life still centred on stock-breeding and shepherding. Giovanni Lovrich noted in the 1770s that the Croatian Morlachs all had flocks of 200, 300 or 600 sheep, and when he asked why they were so reluctant to till the soil, they replied: "Our ancestors didn't do it, so neither shall we." Some writers, especially Serbian ones, have argued that the term "Vlach" was used just to mean "shepherd" and did not imply any ethnic or linguistic difference -- so that most of these people were really just Serbs with sheep. This view is rejected by the leading modern expert on Vlachs in the early Ottoman Balkans, who insists that they were regarded as distinct population.

Vlachs have always been bilingual, and since they were never the administrators, the language which has survived in the records is never their own one. But we do have some evidence of its use, apart from the appearance in the records of Vlach personal names such as Ursul and Sarban. Vlachs who moved to an Adriatic island in the fifteenth century were still speaking Vlach there four hundred years later. One sixteenth-century Venetian writer described the Vlachs of the Dalmatian hinterland as speaking "Latin, though in a corrupted form"; shepherds in those mountains were still using Vlach counting-words as recently as 1985. There is other evidence of bilingualism in the seventeenth century, even though the writer Ioannes Lucius (Ivan Lukic) stated that the language had disappeared by then. But of course, having lived for centuries among the Slavs of Hercegovina and Serbia, these Vlachs could be outwardly indistinguishable (in speech and dress) from the ordinary Slavs of those regions. The suggestion that they must have been monoglot Vlachs, because they did not bring the Serbian ekavian dialect when they came from Serbia into northern Bosnia, is certainly false. They spoke whatever the Slavs around them spoke, which may have changed over time in an area as subject to demographic flux as northern Bosnia; and the Vlachs from Hercegovina would have spoken jekavian anyway.

Some attempts have been made to prove that there was still a Vlach-speaking population in Bosnia as recently as the beginning of the twentieth century. Sixteen "Romanian-speaking" villages were mentioned in the 1910 census for Bosnia, and in 1906 an enthusiastic Romanian Vlachophile published an entire about the "Romanian colonies" which he had found there. When the leading German expert on the Vlachs, Professor Weigand, went to check these claims in the following year, he found that the only Vlach villages consisted of people who had migrated from Macedonia in the eighteenth century and had since lost the use of their language. The "Romanian-speaking" villagers, known locally as "Karavlasi" or "black Vlachs", were indeed speaking Romanian; this was because they were not Vlachs at all, but Romanian gypsies from Transylvania.

Finally, it is necessary to point out that there is little sense today in saying that the Bosnian Serbs are "really" Vlachs. Over the centuries many ordinary members of the Serbian Orthodox Church would have crossed the Drina into Bosnia or moved north from Hercegovina; a Serb merchant class also became important in Bosnian towns in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Not all the people who were sent to populate northern Bosnia in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries were Vlach, and since then there have been so many influxes and exoduses in Bosnian history that we cannot possibly calculate precise percentages for the "Vlach" ancestry of the Bosnian Serbs. Nor did the Vlachs contribute only to the Serb population; some (mainly in Croatia) became Catholics, and quite a few were Islamicized in Bosnia. To call someone a Serb today is to use a concept constructed in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries out of a combination of religion, language, history and the person's own sense of identification: modern Bosnian Serbs can properly describe themselves as such, regardless of Vlach ancestry. But it is still slightly piquant to think, when one hears so-called right-wing Russian politicians talking about the need to defend their ancient Slav brothers in Bosnia, that the one component of the Bosnian population which has a large and identifiable element of non-Slav ancestry is the Bosnian Serbs.

:coffee:

dado
11-20-2012, 02:03 AM
ma nema nikakve sumnje...samo je pitanje o kojem se procentu tu radi,pošto ne vjerujem da su baš svi odreda vlasi...pa ne zovemo ih bezveze tako-vlasi

Guapo
11-20-2012, 02:15 AM
ma nema nikakve sumnje...samo je pitanje o kojem se procentu tu radi,pošto ne vjerujem da su baš svi odreda vlasi...pa ne zovemo ih bezveze tako-vlasi

You're swarthy like a Vlach so you must have ancestry.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 02:22 AM
You're swarthy like a Vlach so you must have ancestry.

The text says Vlachs didn't convert to Islam in Bosnia.

iNird
11-20-2012, 02:27 AM
Basically Guapo is a vlach?!?!?!

Guapo
11-20-2012, 02:29 AM
The text says Vlachs didn't convert to Islam in Bosnia.

you're a fool


Basically Guapo is a vlach?!?!?!

damn right, nigger.

kvarc
11-20-2012, 02:48 AM
Noel Malcolm is a historian for pay, sort of an intelectual prostitute, is this the best you can do?

Mraz
11-20-2012, 02:58 AM
Noel Malcolm is a historian for pay, sort of an intelectual prostitute, is this the best you can do?

There are facts that can't be denied with an argumentation like "this is BS"...
There is an abvious link between Bosno-Serbs and Vlachs, the only question is how big it is.

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 04:46 AM
How did Muslim Vlachs come into existence?

Mraz
11-20-2012, 06:57 AM
How did Muslim Vlachs come into existence?

There are some that converted, but this text doesn't speak about Vlachs in general but in Bosnia who are Orthodox.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 07:04 AM
this article is a load of LOL

especially coming from turko-serb bastard children like bosniakos

Mraz
11-20-2012, 07:19 AM
this article is a load of LOL

especially coming from turko-serb bastard children like bosniakos


I suggest you to visit Bosanska Krajina once and compare the places where Croats and Bosniaks live and where "Serbs" settle, also compare their facial features and skin colour...

Between that, the war criminal you have in your signature looted and abused Serbian civilians that were fleeing because of Oluja in Kljuc and Bosanski Petrovac.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 07:22 AM
I suggest you to visit Bosanska Krajina once and compare the places where Croats and Bosniaks live and where "Serbs" settle, also compare their facial features and skin colour...

Like these ljuti Krajisnici?
58jsvDN0C8g

What do you have to say for yourself :rolleyes:

Mraz
11-20-2012, 07:28 AM
Like these ljuti Krajisnici?
58jsvDN0C8g

What do you have to say for yourself :rolleyes:

Did you read what I wrotte? I'm not saying all Bosno-Serbs are Vlachs...
Between that "Ljuti Krajisnici" refers to Bosniaks that were expelled from their homes and that joined the V corpse of ARBIH to get (successfully) their land back...

mysticism
11-20-2012, 07:32 AM
Meanwhile these are the people criticizing us here to be foreign:

DuA4X9dY-5I

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 07:35 AM
Like these ljuti Krajisnici?
58jsvDN0C8g

Sedi? Yeah, they're real Krajišnici :D

Mraz
11-20-2012, 07:35 AM
Meanwhile these are the people criticizing us here to be foreign:

DuA4X9dY-5I

You're anyway foreign to Bosnia since your roots are in Serbia or in Montenegro.
Good song.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 07:36 AM
Did you read what I wrotte? I'm not saying all Bosno-Serbs are Vlachs...
Between that "Ljuti Krajisnici" refers to Bosniaks that were expelled from their homes and that joined the V corpse of ARBIH to get (successfully) their land back...

those are Serbs from Lika-Srpska Krajina.

Ljuti Krajisnici is a term for all brave Serb Krajisnik warriors. (whether turkified or not it seems)

C810RsrhfP4

mysticism
11-20-2012, 07:38 AM
You're anyway foreign to Bosnia since your roots are in Serbia or in Montenegro.
Good song.

Half of my family comes from Old Herzegovina (Montenegro) and a part comes from Trebinje.

A million times it must be said to you jihadists: BiH is not a compact territory but a bunch of different regions and Bosnia is just one small region around sarajevo.

BTW knew you'd love the song, it's the turkish in u. cmok

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 07:38 AM
Meanwhile these are the people criticizing us here to be foreign:

There are better songs from Sandžak you know :D

egeEurlitEw

Rastko
11-20-2012, 07:39 AM
Ljuti krajisnici koji nijesu mogli dva dana obranit "ognjisca" nego hop na traktore...e SB mani se corava posla

Mraz
11-20-2012, 07:43 AM
those are Serbs from Lika-Srpska Krajina.

Ljuti Krajisnici is a term for all brave Serb Krajisnik warriors. (whether turkified or not it seems)



So brave they fleed in front of Oluja instead of fighting and crushed their civilian column yeah...You should return to your GTA IV and Hollywood movies about Balkan.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 07:44 AM
Rastko I see u promote genocide and ethnic cleansing.....i'm happy for u really

Mraz
11-20-2012, 07:47 AM
Rastko I see u promote genocide and ethnic cleansing.....i'm happy for u really

Your first signature was old people in wheelbarrow and misery fleeing Ratko Mladic, you're an hypocrite, also read what I wrote about Arkan and his heroism in Kljuc and Petrovac.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 07:51 AM
Your first signature was old people in wheelbarrow and misery fleeing Ratko Mladic, you're an hypocrite, also read what I wrote about Arkan and his heroism in Kljuc and Petrovac.

Ratko Mladic was a hero and ur jelly :bored:

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 08:05 AM
Ratko Mladic was a hero and ur jelly :bored:

http://chovjeksblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/ratko-mladic-troublemaker.jpg?w=490

Mraz
11-20-2012, 08:14 AM
Slavic Blood I don't want my thread to become a trollfest, I reported your last message so please now if you have dignity stop posting toll.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 08:19 AM
Ok then stay on topic next time.


I suggest you to visit Bosanska Krajina once and compare the places where Croats and Bosniaks live and where "Serbs" settle, also compare their facial features and skin colour...

Like these ljuti Krajisnici?
58jsvDN0C8g

Again, these are Serbs from Krajina. Why don't they look "strange" or "different" from other Serbs? Noel Malcolm can spew what he wants, but this is what it comes down to isn't it.

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 08:26 AM
Again, these are Serbs from Krajina. Why don't they look "strange" or "different" from other Serbs? Noel Malcolm can spew what he wants, but this is what it comes down to isn't it.

You expect people to base the looks of thousands of people on a few singers?

mysticism
11-20-2012, 08:27 AM
You expect people to base the looks of thousands of people on a few singers?

Well they're not some wannabes, they're true Krajisnici, stereotypical I would even say. And it's like 8 of them.

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 08:41 AM
Well they're not some wannabes, they're true Krajisnici, stereotypical I would even say. And it's like 8 of them.

Hardly anyone is 'typical' in Bosnia :D There are many different looks, and I've been to Bosanska Krajina, and I can tell you that their look is not 'typical'.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 08:44 AM
Hardly anyone is 'typical' in Bosnia :D There are many different looks, and I've been to Bosanska Krajina, and I can tell you that their look is not 'typical'.

What's more typical? Fat heads and Eagle-noses?

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 09:00 AM
What's more typical? Fat heads and Eagle-noses?

Yes :D

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-prn1/49065_1762531189_2196_n.jpg

Mraz
11-20-2012, 09:06 AM
You can check here fotos of Bihac.

http://www.biscani.net/nightlife/#/content/Sezona%202012/04%20%3D%20OLYMPICO%20%40%2021.%20januar%202012/

People living there have a different look than those in Sarajevo IMO, but it's maybe regional racism only.

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 09:12 AM
http://www.biscani.net/nightlife/#/content/Sezona%202012/04%20%3D%20OLYMPICO%20%40%2021.%20januar%202012/

White Pride World Wide :D

http://www.biscani.net/galerija/albums/nocnizivot/content/Sezona%202012/04%20=%20OLYMPICO%[email protected]%2021.%20januar%202012/Clipboard13.jpg

Mraz
11-20-2012, 09:13 AM
White Pride World Wide :D

http://www.biscani.net/galerija/albums/nocnizivot/content/Sezona%202012/04%20=%20OLYMPICO%[email protected]%2021.%20januar%202012/Clipboard13.jpg

Hahahaha epic win.

Anusiya
11-20-2012, 09:13 AM
Meh, nothing is typical among Vlachs. They are various peoples who got romanised that's all.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 09:19 AM
lol mraz why post a link to pics of muslims from bihac. you trying to prove that krajina or bosnia serbs are vlachs or darker than you is failing hard brah.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 09:28 AM
lol mraz why post a link to pics of muslims from bihac. you trying to prove that krajina or bosnia serbs are vlachs or darker than you is failing hard brah.

Nope, I'm myself a wog, I just give a pic of what pple in Bosnian Krajina look like.
I took it because I know Bihac, but in Prijedor or Banja Luka, people would have the same faces, but they're different from the Serbian from Croatia which aren't natives of this area and that were moved there.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 09:31 AM
Nope, I'm myself a wog, I just give a pic of what pple in Bosnian Krajina look like.
I took it because I know Bihac, but in Prijedor or Banja Luka, people would have the same faces, but they're different from the Serbian from Croatia which aren't natives of this area and that were moved there.

Then how can u possibly believe serbs were originally vlachs when yourself are swarthy as are the bihac bosniaks?

P.s. Krajina is one - Banja Luka to Knin that is one ppl.

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 09:36 AM
A million times it must be said to you jihadists: BiH is not a compact territory but a bunch of different regions and Bosnia is just one small region around sarajevo.


The region around today's Sarajevo you refer to is called Vrhbosna, the High Home of Bosniaks, the birthplace of my people.

While Bosnia refers to all regions historically populated by Bosniaks.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 09:39 AM
Then how can u possibly believe serbs were originally vlachs when yourself are swarthy as are the bihac bosniaks?

P.s. Krajina is one - Banja Luka to Knin that is one ppl.

Where did I said you all are from Vlach origin? I said there are Serbs that have Vlach origins and it's very common, they had a social and cultural system different from Slavs. There is no one Krajina, there is the Bosnian one only what you call Srpska Krajina is a sad desert. :rolleyes:

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 09:40 AM
Rastko I see u promote genocide and ethnic cleansing.....i'm happy for u really

Free Reublika Srpska ain't promotion of genocidal plans from the 90s.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 09:46 AM
Where did I said you all are from Vlach origin? I said there are Serbs that have Vlach origins and it's very common, they had a social and cultural system different from Slavs. There is no one Krajina, there is the Bosnian one only what you call Srpska Krajina is a sad desert. :rolleyes:

Krajina is a historical region straddling two banana states - BiH and Croatia. It's one culture, one dialect and one history.

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/30/862d3af8ab4b4e7ebc53e7a1035eda59/l.jpg

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 09:48 AM
Krajina is a historical region straddling two banana states - BiH and Croatia. It's one culture, one dialect and one history.


Krajina refers to the Croatian Military Frontier. Back then Bosanska Krajina was called "Turkish Croatia", so it couldn't have been 'one Krajina'.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 09:49 AM
Krajina is a historical region straddling two banana states - BiH and Croatia. It's one culture, one dialect and one history.

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/30/862d3af8ab4b4e7ebc53e7a1035eda59/l.jpg

No, imported people in Croatian side of Krajina aren't linked to native people living in Bosnia.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 09:51 AM
No, imported people in Croatian side of Krajina aren't linked to native people living in Bosnia.

Keep sayin' that to yourself, Turkish import....

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 09:54 AM
Krajina is a historical region straddling two banana states - BiH and Croatia. It's one culture, one dialect and one history.


They are not a same culture, they did come from a common Serbian cultural nexus. Serbian Krajišnici in Croatia came from Shumadija and central Serbia during the First Great Serb Migrations, while those which came in Bosnia came nearly 100 years later from Montenegro + Vlachs. :rolleyes:

Don't twist history, you very well know that Serbs in Bosnian compared to Croatian Krajina speak two different dialects. :rolleyes:

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 09:54 AM
Keep sayin' that to yourself, Turkish import....

Funny you to say that :rolleyes:

mysticism
11-20-2012, 10:25 AM
They are not a same culture, they did come from a common Serbian cultural nexus. Serbian Krajišnici in Croatia came from Shumadija and central Serbia during the First Great Serb Migrations, while those which came in Bosnia came nearly 100 years later from Montenegro + Vlachs. :rolleyes:

Don't twist history, you very well know that Serbs in Bosnian compared to Croatian Krajina speak two different dialects. :rolleyes:

Serbs in BiH have diff dialect depending on the region - in Bosnia/Semberija they speak one way, in Herzegovina another, and in Krajina another....

But Krajina is one region, regardless of in Croatia or BiH, same Serbs same groupation. they were invited by the austro-hungarians to settle this abandoned area of the empire to prevent turkish raids and protect the edges of the empire. Krajina Serbs came from Montenegro/Herzegovina mainly.

Photo supplement:
Licka Nosnja
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7332/lika03momciidevojkewa6.jpg
Glamocka Nosnja
http://www.kud-zavicaj.ch/index.php?view=image&format=raw&type=img&id=941&option=com_joomgallery&Itemid=75&lang=sr

Baja Mali Knindza himself is a Krajisnik from BiH Krajina - Livno, and he as all BiH Krajisnici consider themselves same as HR Krajisnici - whether it's HR Krajina or BiH Krajina - it is one.

http://www.balkanmedia.com/slika-baja-mali-knindza-nikada-vise-necu-zapevati-u-hrvatskoj-iako-mi-se-tamo-sjajno-prodaju-kaset-slike-1372-1-1.jpg

Vukodav
11-20-2012, 10:30 AM
genetics proved that Bosnian muslims and Bosnian Serb are same people, while Bosnian Croats have a bit different genetic structure.
so, I don't get all this threads. if Bosnian Serbs are Vlachs than Bosniaks are also.

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 10:32 AM
Krajina Serbs came from Montenegro/Herzegovina mainly.


In Croatian Krajina they came from Central Serbia and Shumadija, it is simple as that. You have both Croatian and Serb records, even Serb tombstones and songs in which they speak about their central Serbian homelands.

While Bosnian Krajina Serbs are a mixture of Serbs from Old Serbia padded with massive numbers of Vlachs (which came before the Serbs, there for we referred to all Orthodox newcomers as Vlachs).

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 10:35 AM
genetics proved that Bosnian muslims and Bosnian Serb are same people, while Bosnian Croats have a bit different genetic structure.

We have similar but not the same meta genetic structure. I, R, J and E are all present among the Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks just as any other Balkanites, the difference in their %s gives us "special flavors".

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/wp-content/blogs.dir/474/files/2012/04/i-bb3ac5b801b60400bded2397116d34e7-Europegenetics.jpg

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7614/procrustes.png

Mraz
11-20-2012, 10:35 AM
genetics proved that Bosnian muslims and Bosnian Serb are same people, while Bosnian Croats have a bit different genetic structure.
so, I don't get all this threads. if Bosnian Serbs are Vlachs than Bosniaks are also.

Where are those genetic test, and are they reliable :rolleyes:

Vukodav
11-20-2012, 10:46 AM
We have similar but not the same meta genetic structure. I, R, J and E are all present among the Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks just as any other Balkanites, the difference in their %s gives us "special flavors".

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/wp-content/blogs.dir/474/files/2012/04/i-bb3ac5b801b60400bded2397116d34e7-Europegenetics.jpg

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7614/procrustes.png

but it debunks your tales of strange looking Serbs in Bosnia. since genotype=phenotype.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 10:55 AM
We have similar but not the same meta genetic structure. I, R, J and E are all present among the Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks just as any other Balkanites, the difference in their %s gives us "special flavors".

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/wp-content/blogs.dir/474/files/2012/04/i-bb3ac5b801b60400bded2397116d34e7-Europegenetics.jpg

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7614/procrustes.png

I guess BiH test was based without discrimination, it'd be better to check each ethnicity apart and then compare to our neighbours.


but it debunks your tales of strange looking Serbs in Bosnia. since genotype=phenotype.

It debunks nothing, most of them are imported and didn't live like Croats and Bosniaks.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 11:04 AM
In Croatian Krajina they came from Central Serbia and Shumadija, it is simple as that. You have both Croatian and Serb records, even Serb tombstones and songs in which they speak about their central Serbian homelands.

While Bosnian Krajina Serbs are a mixture of Serbs from Old Serbia padded with massive numbers of Vlachs (which came before the Serbs, there for we referred to all Orthodox newcomers as Vlachs).

Whatever conspiracies or tombstones you have documented that's fine. I'm just telling you how Krajisnici themselves identify - whether BiH or HR they are Krajisnik and there is only one Krajina.

Serbs in Livno, Glamoc, Zegar and Knin have no difference and historically intermarry.

Some famous Krajisnici:

Gavrilo Princip

http://media1.shmoop.com/media/images/large/gavrilo-princip.jpg

Vojvoda Momcilo Djujic

http://www.srbel.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/vojvoda-Mom%C4%8Dilo-%C4%90uji%C4%87.jpg

Kapetan Dragan

http://www.novosti.rs/upload/images/2012//11/16n/kapetan.jpg

Milorad Dodik

http://doznajemo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/milorad-dodik11.jpg

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 11:06 AM
but it debunks your tales of strange looking Serbs in Bosnia. since genotype=phenotype.

I said nothing of "strange looking Serbs", I said of their migration here and the reason why we referred to them as Vlachs.

Phenotypically speaking the differences between West Balkanites are minimal at best.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 11:10 AM
They surely look like

Atif Dudakovic

http://www.krupljani.ba/images/stories/Vijesti/Unsko-sanski_kanton/atif_dudakovic.jpg

Izet nanic

http://krajina.ba/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Izet-600x428.jpg

Fikret Abdic

http://depo.ba/media/pictures/2010/06/10/c2ca9eb94b0264e1c4dac0f474729d99.jpg

Mehmed Alagic

http://www.bosnjaci.net/foto/Mehmed_Alagic_photo_EKrcic_big.jpg

Alen Islamovic

http://www.metal-archives.com/images/8/5/5/3/85532_artist.jpg?031
Milorad Dodik fits though.

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 11:10 AM
Whatever conspiracies or tombstones you have documented that's fine. I'm just telling you how Krajisnici themselves identify - whether BiH or HR they are Krajisnik and there is only one Krajina.


Look buddy if you want to teach dead people from which part of the region they come from and tell that all their lamentations for the homes they were forced to abandon are just false-evidence planted by time traveling Bosniaks from the future or an all Bosniak alternative universe, that's fine with me.

But just let me present fact supported arguments and don't call me a liar or a jihadist or what ever.

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 11:12 AM
They surely look like

Atif Dudakovic

http://www.krupljani.ba/images/stories/Vijesti/Unsko-sanski_kanton/atif_dudakovic.jpg

Izet nanic

http://krajina.ba/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Izet-600x428.jpg

Fikret Abdic

http://depo.ba/media/pictures/2010/06/10/c2ca9eb94b0264e1c4dac0f474729d99.jpg

Milorad Dodik fits though.

Take out the last piece of shit in your post please.

mysticism
11-20-2012, 11:15 AM
I said nothing of "strange looking Serbs", I said of their migration here and the reason why we referred to them as Vlachs.

Phenotypically speaking the differences between West Balkanites are minimal at best.

But you (and Croats) call all Serbs "Vlachs" not just ones in Bosnia :rolleyes:

Observe:

Ja sam bolji, cuj, Vlase, od tebe,
bolja mi je vjera nego tvoja!

- Kapitan Hamza, from Gorski Vijenac 1847

Your "migration" stories are a myth, thank you come again!

Mraz
11-20-2012, 11:18 AM
Take out the last piece of shit in your post please.

A native is a native :D

mysticism
11-20-2012, 11:21 AM
A native is a native :D

Fikret was a good bosniak. :D

I don't see what u are trying to say with the pics mraz, since u are a swarthoid.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 11:23 AM
Fikret was a good bosniak. :D

I don't see what u are trying to say with the pics mraz, since u are a swarthoid.

Nothing, I didn't cherry pick Slavic looking people, they're just the most famous people that came to my mind.

I forgot Jovan Divjak, his father is from Bosanska Krupa.

http://www.bosniak.org/bosanski/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/jovan-divjak1.jpg

mysticism
11-20-2012, 11:26 AM
ok, I'd like to just say though, that I detect a foreign anatolian element in some Krajina muslims.

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 11:26 AM
But you (and Croats) call all Serbs "Vlachs" not just ones in Bosnia :rolleyes:

Observe:

Ja sam bolji, cuj, Vlase, od tebe,
bolja mi je vjera nego tvoja!

- Kapitan Hamza, from Gorski Vijenac 1847

We referred to you as Vlachs because those are the first Orthodox peoples most Muslims met or saw in Bosnia which came with the Ottomans, not just Serbs. All Orthodox peoples of the Balkans in the eyes of Bosnian Muslims were Vlachs be they Bulgars or Greeks. While to Turks all Balkanian Orthodoxes were refferd as Romans, because the Byzantines were the first Orthodox peoples they've met, hell most of Serbia along side all of Orthodox nations was in Eyalet called Rumelia, the lands of the Romans.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Rumelia_map.jpg/559px-Rumelia_map.jpg


While all Orthodox peoples referred to Muslims as Turks, because Turks were Muslims most of them ever knew.

While vulgar and retarded lines like those you posted are matched with violent retardation found in Wrath of the Mountain.


Your "migration" stories are a myth and don't add up

Buddy in 16th century Bosnia before the sack of Sarajevo (and Catholic exodus) Catholics made a massive majority of 60%, Muslims made up around a 25 to 30% mostly concentrated in cities while the rest was made up of Orthodoxs Serbs which were located in Hercegovina hinterlands and few pockets in Podrinje.

Those aren't Bosniak fabrications these are Turkish demographic collections.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 11:28 AM
ok, I'd like to just say though, that I detect a foreign anatolian element in some Krajina muslims.

I don't care man I love Turks and Turkey :thumb001:
Even if Ottoman Empire imported people that troubled Bosnian society and made some other shit, they'll be always more my brothers than Montenegrians and Serbians, except those of Sanzak pedigree.

Methmatician
11-20-2012, 11:30 AM
they'll be always more my brothers than Montenegrians and Serbians

https://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/sp/image/1344/55/1344552778052.jpg

mysticism
11-20-2012, 11:39 AM
VV - Serbs call all muslims turks, Boslims call all orthodox Vlachs, Turks call all orthodox romans, it's just a vicious cycle.

It sounds good, but has holes. Bosniaks or Croats never referred to Bulgarians or Greeks as vlachs lolz.

And does the Mountain "Wrath" scare u? Does its raw Balkaness intimidate and send chills down zee spine?

Luna i krst, dva strašna simvola -
njihovo je na grobnice carstvo.
Sljedovat im rijekom krvavom
u lađici grdna stradanija,
to je biti jedno ili drugo !

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 11:55 AM
It sounds good, but has holes. Bosniaks or Croats never referred to Bulgarians or Greeks as vlachs lolz.


Croat's never referred you as Vlachs, to them Vlachs were a Romance people from Vlachia but native Italians eventually came to be known to them under the same Vlach banner.

Even today among the older Bosniak people (take my grandmother with 4 years in school as an example) from rural areas are a walking example old Bosniaks didn't understand that there was an ethnic, linguistic or semi religious difference among "Vlachs". They honestly believe that Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians and Greeks are one people ie. traditional Bosnian interpretation of the "mythical Vlach", a South Slavic speaker of Orthodox belief.

They can't wrap their minds around the fact that Serbians, Greeks and Bulgarians are different peoples, to them they are just Vlachs while all Catholics were referred as Latins or Papists.

You can find this pattern in nearly every aspect of Bosniak Ottoman culture. In Fefvzi Mostarac's epic Bulbulistan he says; "... a noble Vlach from eastern Rumelia (Bulgar) is more dear to God than a Muslim which abandoned the true path and let himself enjoy the passing illusions of Dunja (this material world)".

Guapo
11-20-2012, 12:07 PM
genetics proved that Bosnian muslims and Bosnian Serb are same people, while Bosnian Croats have a bit different genetic structure.
so, I don't get all this threads. if Bosnian Serbs are Vlachs than Bosniaks are also.

No shit, mraz is just a confused little boy along with VV

mysticism
11-20-2012, 12:09 PM
Croat's never referred you as Vlachs, to them Vlachs were a Romance people from Vlachia but native Italians eventually came to be known to them under the same Vlach banner.

Yes, they have, and do today. Read Ante Starcevic or any Ustasa writings for proof. Real vlachs in istria are known as Cici by the croats.


Even today among the older Bosniak people (take my grandmother with 4 years in school as an example) from rural areas are a walking example old Bosniaks didn't understand that there was an ethnic, linguistic or semi religious difference among "Vlachs". They honestly believe that Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians and Greeks are one people ie. traditional Bosnian interpretation of the "mythical Vlach", a South Slavic speaker of Orthodox belief.

They can't wrap their minds around the fact that Serbians, Greeks and Bulgarians are different peoples, to them they are just Vlachs while all Catholics were referred as Latins or Papists.

You can find this pattern in nearly every aspect of Bosniak Ottoman culture. In Fefvzi Mostarac's epic Bulbulistan he says; "... a noble Vlach from eastern Rumelia (Bulgar) is more dear to God than a Muslim which abandoned the true path and let himself enjoy the passing illusions of Dunja (this material world)".

lol funny.

"Bulbulistan"

Mraz
11-20-2012, 12:11 PM
No shit, mraz is just a confused little boy along with VV

If you have nothing intelligent to say, please move from this serious thread.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 12:13 PM
I reported your message and so will I do with every trollish posts.

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 12:19 PM
Yes, they have, and do today. Read Ante Starcevic or any Ustasa writings for proof. Real vlachs in istria are known as Cici by the croats.

Ustaše strangely took too many Bosniak influences, but then Ante was raised for most of his life among Muslims and actually went to a medresa.

Actually Croats knew the difference between Serbs and Vlachs, if you look at the exchanges of letters between Bosniak border guards of various Kapetanije and Croatian hajduka you will see that they mention Serbs and Vlachs as a different peoples in Bosnia.

I think there is a scribid collection of the letters somewhere, other wise check Bosnia History forum. Guys there can give you the link in a second.



lol funny.
"Bulbulistan"

Yeah "Bašća Slavuja" (The Garden Nightingales) one of the best social criticisms of the then Ottoman society and then situation. Fevzi was quoted as one of the inspirations when the Ottomans finally fully lifted the Jyzah tax and Dihmi system in the 19th century.

Guapo
11-20-2012, 12:19 PM
I reported your message and so will I do with every trollish posts.

Did you cry for help like your comrades always did?

kvarc
11-20-2012, 01:14 PM
There are facts that can't be denied with an argumentation like "this is BS"...
There is an abvious link between Bosno-Serbs and Vlachs, the only question is how big it is.

Vlahs were not a etnos but a social group in middle age Serbia, check out Dusan`s code, term vlah was used in the meaning - shepard.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 01:26 PM
Vlahs were not a etnos but a social group in middle age Serbia, check out Dusan`s code, term vlah was used in the meaning - shepard.

I don't care about Dusan and whatever he wrote, I don't bother you with Kulin Ban. Bosnia matters and exposing the myth of Bosnian Serbs is something that has to be done.

Midori
11-20-2012, 01:35 PM
Vlahs were not a etnos but a social group in middle age Serbia, check out Dusan`s code, term vlah was used in the meaning - shepard.

A shepherd and a Romance speaker.

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 01:38 PM
Vlahs were not a etnos

I am just going to show you this map.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Rumelia_map.jpg/559px-Rumelia_map.jpg

If you have more than 2 brain cells to rub together you will understand what kind of boo boo you made.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 01:53 PM
A shepherd and a Romance speaker.

Who had a different culture, ethnicity and that adopted Slavic language in Bosnia.

Midori
11-20-2012, 02:01 PM
Who had a different culture, ethnicity and that adopted Slavic language in Bosnia.

Whatever, they were genetically the same as Serbs anyway.

Mraz
11-20-2012, 02:02 PM
Whatever, they were genetically the same as Serbs anyway.

Nice to hear it :D

Minesweeper
11-20-2012, 02:03 PM
There are facts that can't be denied with an argumentation like "this is BS"...
There is an abvious link between Bosno-Serbs and Vlachs, the only question is how big it is.

Bullshit aside, genetic testings were done in Bosnia, on Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks, especially on Y DNA haplogroups. Results are available, and they haven't shown anything spectacular or sensational. You should check them out.

Midori
11-20-2012, 02:05 PM
Nice to hear it :D

...and Serbs are genetically very close to Bosniaks. (I know you hate to read this :()

blabla
11-20-2012, 02:05 PM
This kind of behaviour from muslim Serbs is expected, I mean it is just pure psychology.

Anyway, are you all aware that whole area of pretty much all ex-yu was affected by huge migrations during Turko-Austrian wars?

Hurrem sultana
11-20-2012, 02:09 PM
...and Serbs are genetically very close to Bosniaks. (I know you hate to read this :()

in Bosnia serbs are known to be from villages,not even villages...hence vlasi,they got to see town once Tito came to power:D

Mraz
11-20-2012, 02:12 PM
This kind of behaviour from muslim Serbs is expected, I mean it is just pure psychology.


There were no Serbs in Bosnia when Ottomans brought Islam ;)
Only Catholic, Orthodox and Bosnian Church members...All Bosnians.
You should keep to your Podgorica and Belgrade History.

Anusiya
11-20-2012, 02:20 PM
in Bosnia serbs are known to be from villages,not even villages...hence vlasi,they got to see town once Tito came to power:D

Then my darling, if you feel uneasy about the Vlachs, next time don't buy Bulgari. It's simple as that, why should we spoil our hearts? :D

Hurrem sultana
11-20-2012, 02:23 PM
Then my darling, if you feel uneasy about the Vlachs, next time don't buy Bulgari. It's simple as that, why should we spoil our hearts? :D

whats bulgari? never buy it:D

Midori
11-20-2012, 02:26 PM
in Bosnia serbs are known to be from villages,not even villages...hence vlasi,they got to see town once Tito came to power:D

Could be, but I don't see any phenotypical difference between Bosnian Serbs and Bosniaks. Is there one?

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 02:38 PM
Could be, but I don't see any phenotypical difference between Bosnian Serbs and Bosniaks. Is there one?

It all depends from region to region.

But on average the phenotypical differences in west Balkanian states are minimal (Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia and Montenegro).

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 02:41 PM
...and Serbs are genetically very close to Bosniaks. (I know you hate to read this :()

It's not hard. Please read my comment about it (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1174416&postcount=54)my little African Pigeon.

Midori
11-20-2012, 02:53 PM
my little African Pigeon.

We'll see who's African when I do 23andme :)

morski
11-20-2012, 02:56 PM
It's not hard. Please read my comment about it (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1174416&postcount=54)my little African Pigeon.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/African_Olive_Pigeon.jpg

:D

safinator
11-20-2012, 02:59 PM
I all depends from region to region.

But on average the phenotypical differences in west Balkanian states are minimal (Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia and Montenegro).

We can rule this one out.

Sultan Suleiman
11-20-2012, 03:01 PM
We can rule this one out.

They overlap with Croats which in turn overlap with the rest of us.

Slovenes although lighter than an average Balko are by no means Nordic gods from halls of Valhalla you present them to be :coffee:

mysticism
11-25-2012, 08:11 AM
Ostensibly Croats and Slovenians cluster with west-east slavs while Serbs/Bosniaks cluster more with Fyromacs Romanians and Bulgarians....

Hurrem sultana
11-25-2012, 09:47 AM
Ostensibly Croats and Slovenians cluster with west-east slavs while Serbs/Bosniaks cluster more with Fyromacs Romanians and Bulgarians....

Bosniaks certainly do not,i see many macedonians here they are too swarthy for us,in Bosnia bosniaks are the lightest ones

Methmatician
11-25-2012, 09:51 AM
Bosniaks certainly do not,i see many macedonians here they are too swarthy for us,in Bosnia bosniaks are the lightest ones

I think it's more of a regional thing than an ethnic thing. I reckon a Serb from Banja Luka is going to look more like a Bosniak from Bihać than a Serb from Višegrad.

mysticism
11-25-2012, 09:54 AM
I think it's more of a regional thing than an ethnic thing. I reckon a Serb from Banja Luka is going to look more like a Bosniak from Bihać than a Serb from Višegrad.

Yeah, though that example doesn't apply today. BL is a refugee city.

mysticism
11-25-2012, 09:55 AM
Bosniaks certainly do not,i see many macedonians here they are too swarthy for us,in Bosnia bosniaks are the lightest ones

The ppl in your avatar don't match what you're saying. :rolleyes:

Methmatician
11-25-2012, 09:57 AM
Yeah, though that example doesn't apply today. BL is a refugee city.

Ok, Drvar :D

Mans not hot
11-25-2012, 10:00 AM
Ostensibly Croats and Slovenians cluster with west-east slavs while Serbs/Bosniaks cluster more with Fyromacs Romanians and Bulgarians....
Slovenes and Croats cluster closer with Hungarians and Czechs:
http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/legacy/ancestor_map_x220.jpg

Sultan Suleiman
11-25-2012, 01:41 PM
Slovenes and Croats cluster closer with Hungarians and Czechs:
http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/legacy/ancestor_map_x220.jpg

And Bosniaks cluster closer to Croats rather than Serbs. :rolleyes:

safinator
11-25-2012, 01:43 PM
And Bosniaks cluster closer to Croats rather than Serbs. :rolleyes:
I wouldn't rely much on a map that puts Slovaks close to Cypriots.

Mans not hot
11-25-2012, 01:47 PM
I wouldn't rely much on a map that puts Slovaks close to Cypriots.
That Slovak sample is a bad example because he's/she's probably mixed.

Scholarios
06-21-2014, 04:46 PM
Since this northern Albanian and southern Serbian region was the original heartland of the Vlachs, it is not surprising that they should have spread out into the nearby uplands of Hercegovina from an early period. From there they moved northwards through the mountainous Dalmatian hinterland, where they are found tending flocks (and bringing them down to the coastal lands in the winter) as early as the twelfth century. There are many references to them in the records of Ragusa and Zadar from the thirteenth to fifteenth centuries. Some of these pastoral Vlachs also penetrated as far as central Bosnia, where medieval place-names in the regions of Sarajevo and Travnik indicate their presence: Vlahinja, Vlaskovo, Vlasic. And many Vlach words connected with pastoral life were absorbed into Bosnian dialects of Serbo-Croat: trze, a late-born lamb, from the Vlach tirdziu, for example, or zarica, a type of cheese, from the Vlach zara. This last word is in fact a version of the Albanian word dhalle, "buttermilk" -- one of many details pointing to the pastoral symbiosis between Vlachs and Albanians, which continued to operate over a long period.
Most of these early Dalmatian and Bosnian Vlachs seem to have led quiet, secluded lives in the mountains. But in Hercegovina itself, where there was a large concentration of Vlachs, a more military and aggressive tradition developed. There are many complaints in Ragusan records of raids by these neighboring Vlachs during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. The Vlachs of Hercegovina were horse-breeders and caravan-leaders who, when they were not engaged in plunder, grew rich out of the trade between Ragusa and mines of Bosnia; some of them were probably responsible for commissioning the imposing Bosnian stone tombstones or stecci decorated with carvings of horsemen. Their trading links to the east must have brought them more into contact with the Vlach peoples of Serbia and Bulgaria, who had long traditions of military activity in the armies of the Byzantine emperors and Serbian kings.

Finally, it is necessary to point out that there is little sense today in saying that the Bosnian Serbs are "really" Vlachs. Over the centuries many ordinary members of the Serbian Orthodox Church would have crossed the Drina into Bosnia or moved north from Hercegovina; a Serb merchant class also became important in Bosnian towns in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Not all the people who were sent to populate northern Bosnia in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries were Vlach, and since then there have been so many influxes and exoduses in Bosnian history that we cannot possibly calculate precise percentages for the "Vlach" ancestry of the Bosnian Serbs. Nor did the Vlachs contribute only to the Serb population; some (mainly in Croatia) became Catholics, and quite a few were Islamicized in Bosnia. To call someone a Serb today is to use a concept constructed in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries out of a combination of religion, language, history and the person's own sense of identification: modern Bosnian Serbs can properly describe themselves as such, regardless of Vlach ancestry. But it is still slightly piquant to think, when one hears so-called right-wing Russian politicians talking about the need to defend their ancient Slav brothers in Bosnia, that the one component of the Bosnian population which has a large and identifiable element of non-Slav ancestry is the Bosnian Serbs.

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm

Kastrioti1443
06-21-2014, 04:51 PM
Since this northern Albanian and southern Serbian region was the original heartland of the Vlachs, it is not surprising that they should have spread out into the nearby uplands of Hercegovina from an early period. From there they moved northwards through the mountainous Dalmatian hinterland, where they are found tending flocks (and bringing them down to the coastal lands in the winter) as early as the twelfth century. There are many references to them in the records of Ragusa and Zadar from the thirteenth to fifteenth centuries. Some of these pastoral Vlachs also penetrated as far as central Bosnia, where medieval place-names in the regions of Sarajevo and Travnik indicate their presence: Vlahinja, Vlaskovo, Vlasic. And many Vlach words connected with pastoral life were absorbed into Bosnian dialects of Serbo-Croat: trze, a late-born lamb, from the Vlach tirdziu, for example, or zarica, a type of cheese, from the Vlach zara. This last word is in fact a version of the Albanian word dhalle, "buttermilk" -- one of many details pointing to the pastoral symbiosis between Vlachs and Albanians, which continued to operate over a long period.
Most of these early Dalmatian and Bosnian Vlachs seem to have led quiet, secluded lives in the mountains. But in Hercegovina itself, where there was a large concentration of Vlachs, a more military and aggressive tradition developed. There are many complaints in Ragusan records of raids by these neighboring Vlachs during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. The Vlachs of Hercegovina were horse-breeders and caravan-leaders who, when they were not engaged in plunder, grew rich out of the trade between Ragusa and mines of Bosnia; some of them were probably responsible for commissioning the imposing Bosnian stone tombstones or stecci decorated with carvings of horsemen. Their trading links to the east must have brought them more into contact with the Vlach peoples of Serbia and Bulgaria, who had long traditions of military activity in the armies of the Byzantine emperors and Serbian kings.

Finally, it is necessary to point out that there is little sense today in saying that the Bosnian Serbs are "really" Vlachs. Over the centuries many ordinary members of the Serbian Orthodox Church would have crossed the Drina into Bosnia or moved north from Hercegovina; a Serb merchant class also became important in Bosnian towns in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Not all the people who were sent to populate northern Bosnia in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries were Vlach, and since then there have been so many influxes and exoduses in Bosnian history that we cannot possibly calculate precise percentages for the "Vlach" ancestry of the Bosnian Serbs. Nor did the Vlachs contribute only to the Serb population; some (mainly in Croatia) became Catholics, and quite a few were Islamicized in Bosnia. To call someone a Serb today is to use a concept constructed in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries out of a combination of religion, language, history and the person's own sense of identification: modern Bosnian Serbs can properly describe themselves as such, regardless of Vlach ancestry. But it is still slightly piquant to think, when one hears so-called right-wing Russian politicians talking about the need to defend their ancient Slav brothers in Bosnia, that the one component of the Bosnian population which has a large and identifiable element of non-Slav ancestry is the Bosnian Serbs.

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm

Northern Albania ( including southern montenengro, northwestern fyrom, western kosovo) has never been an original heartland of Vlachs. The centers of Vlachs in Balkans used to be Hercegovina ( northern montenengro too), southeastern serbia, parts of bulagaria and fyrom, thessalia and in the ottoman times vlachs expanded in southern albania too.

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 04:52 PM
But it is still slightly piquant to think, when one hears so-called right-wing Russian politicians talking about the need to defend their ancient Slav brothers in Bosnia, that the one component of the Bosnian population which has a large and identifiable element of non-Slav ancestry is the Bosnian Serbs.[/B]

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm

This is a garbage, pro-Bosnian, anti-Serbian, stupid written paragraph. Why are you spreading it?

Scholarios
06-21-2014, 04:54 PM
This is a garbage, pro-Bosnian, anti-Serbian, stupid written paragraph. Why are you spreading it?

Actually, I don't have some negative feeling about Vlachs as Serbs so I dont mean to spread it as a negative thing. It's created by Greek Vlachs. He also says many Muslims are descendant of Vlachs as well.

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 04:55 PM
Northern Albania ( including southern montenengro, northwestern fyrom, western kosovo) has never been an original heartland of Vlachs. The centers of Vlachs in Balkans used to be Hercegovina ( northern montenengro too), southeastern serbia, parts of bulagaria and fyrom, thessalia and in the ottoman times vlachs expanded in southern albania too.

by paternal haplogroups, Herzegovina is the most slavic area. I2a2b is 70+% in some parts. The best marker of the Vlachs is J2* and this is no more 10% in Serbian lands.

Kastrioti1443
06-21-2014, 04:57 PM
by paternal haplogroups, Herzegovina is the most slavic area. I2a2b is 70+% in some parts. The best marker of the Vlachs is J2* and this is no more 10% in Serbian lands.

This is the strange thing with Hercegovina... it is indeed with average 60-65% I2a2, but it is well documented that Vlachs had their center there...probably slavic males were assimilated with the passing of time.

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 04:58 PM
Actually, I don't have some negative feeling about Vlachs as Serbs so I dont mean to spread it as a negative thing. It's created by Greek Vlachs. He also says many Muslims are descendant of Vlachs as well.

The person is saying Serbs are not slavs, and even clearly hints Russians should support Bosnian Muslims over Serbs. I have no idea why Greek Vlachs want to say this about us, but we are not Vlachs, and we don't care to have any connection with them other than friendships in the case of Romania etc.

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 05:02 PM
This is the strange thing with Hercegovina... it is indeed with average 60-65% I2a2, but it is well documented that Vlachs had their center there...probably slavic males were assimilated with the passing of time.

They did, but Serbs were specifically given Herzegovina by the Byzantines and maybe this pushed out many. Remember that Herzegovina was the center of Serbs in medieval time, from where Serbs spread to rest of the Balkans. Many Serbs have legends of going back ultimately to Herzegovina. This is the reason when Serbian language was standardized, it was Herzegovinian dialect chosen, because it's considered the most 'pure' Serbian speak, and the dialect in eastern Serbia to be very Bulgarian and Romanian influenced.

Insuperable
06-21-2014, 05:03 PM
I read on one Croatian forum where some Pannonians Croats claim how Dalmatia was a true Balto-Slavic region before Vlach migrations.xD

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 05:06 PM
I read on one Croatian forum where some Pannonians Croats claim how Dalmatia was a true Balto-Slavic region before Vlach migrations.xD

It doesn't matter what they once were. What matters is what it became. Byzantines settled Serbian and Croatian warrior families there in exchange for our military service against the Avars. As you know, the Herzegovinians don't seem to plot all that differently compared to Croats from Zagreb, I would say the major difference is more "western" plotting for them.

Kastrioti1443
06-21-2014, 05:07 PM
Another thing to be mentioned is that areas where Vlachs settled are quiet dark. However what it is interesting is that Hercegovinians as a whole are probably the tallest people in europe, but they are dark, in general Dinaro-med with CM. On the other hand the vlachs in southern albania or other regions such as Myzeqe are exotic too, but they are short and very alpinoid influenced

The Illyrian Warrior
06-21-2014, 05:09 PM
Northern Albania also Kosova wasn't centerpoint of Vlachs but Bosnia territory was known, while in present day Vlach DNA is carried by Serb peasants en-masse also traditional orthodox faith was main point why they've kept mixing more with Serbs than other nation in Balkans.

Scholarios
06-21-2014, 05:10 PM
This is the strange thing with Hercegovina... it is indeed with average 60-65% I2a2, but it is well documented that Vlachs had their center there...probably slavic males were assimilated with the passing of time.

I don't know exactly the source of this map, but it floats around the internet a lot.

http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 05:10 PM
Another thing to be mentioned is that areas where Vlachs settled are quiet dark. However what it is interesting is that Hercegovinians as a whole are probably the tallest people in europe, but they are dark, in general Dinaro-med with CM. On the other hand the vlachs in southern albania or other regions such as Myzeqe are exotic too, but they are short and very alpinoid influenced

Herzegovinians are dark mostly to their lifestyle and climate. The air there is very dry, the sun always shines, and people are mostly outdoors. However if you look at things like "Blue eyes" I don't think there is a difference to other areas of Serbia, I maybe wrong. They are also the tallest of the Balkans I met, but this is mountain life they have adapted to.

Kastrioti1443
06-21-2014, 05:14 PM
I don't know exactly the source of this map, but it floats around the internet a lot.

http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg

It sounds like propaganda, mostly done by hungarians to bash romanians.

Scholarios
06-21-2014, 05:15 PM
The person is saying Serbs are not slavs, and even clearly hints Russians should support Bosnian Muslims over Serbs. I have no idea why Greek Vlachs want to say this about us, but we are not Vlachs, and we don't care to have any connection with them other than friendships in the case of Romania etc.

Actually, I see now at the bottom it says Noel Malcolm wrote it. He was accused of Anti-Serbian bias a lot. I still don't see what's wrong with Serbs being descendant of indigenous Balkanians though. Even if it looks like it's not actually true in the case of Bosnia. I thought it would give them more aboriginal status than the Albanians.

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 05:22 PM
Actually, I see now at the bottom it says Noel Malcolm wrote it. He was accused of Anti-Serbian bias a lot. I still don't see what's wrong with Serbs being descendant of indigenous Balkanians though. Even if it looks like it's not actually true in the case of Bosnia. I thought it would give them more aboriginal status than the Albanians.

We don't want to be "aboriginal." We want to be Serbs, and Serbs came to the Balkans, at invitation of Byzantine Emperor, in 500-600 AD. Anyways, the only great "aboriginal Balkan" people are the Greeks.

Scholarios
06-21-2014, 05:23 PM
We don't want to be "aboriginal." We want to be Serbs, and Serbs came to the Balkans, at invitation of Byzantine Emperor, in 500-600 AD. Anyways, the only great "aboriginal Balkan" people are the Greeks.

That is a refreshing view to say the least.

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 05:27 PM
That is a refreshing view to say the least.

It has been the Serbian view. During Austria-Hungarian times, they inherited lots of Serbs through the frontier, and they began to worry about pan-slavism and Serbians relationship to Russia. So they tried to push onto Serbs that we were "Illyrians", they began calling Serbs such, opening universities and political parties with this name, etc but the Serbs resisted and insisted on being called "Slavo-Serbs". We Serbs have a proud history and we have no need to search for a history from other people.

Diërker
06-21-2014, 05:29 PM
It has been the Serbian view. During Austria-Hungarian times, they inherited lots of Serbs through the frontier, and they began to worry about pan-slavism and Serbians relationship to Russia. So they tried to push onto Serbs that we were "Illyrians", they began calling Serbs such, opening universities and political parties with this name, etc but the Serbs resisted and insisted on being called "Slavo-Serbs". We Serbs have a proud history and we have no need to search for a history from other people.

How you know all this, do your parents, relatives teach you about Euro history?

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 05:34 PM
How you know all this, do your parents, relatives teach you about Euro history?

This particular thing I read in this book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Serbs-Guardians-Gate/dp/0880294132

It detailed how Austrians tried to impose on us an identity separating us from slavs, most notably Russians, but Serbs refused and we disregarded it :)

Scholarios
06-21-2014, 05:35 PM
It has been the Serbian view. During Austria-Hungarian times, they inherited lots of Serbs through the frontier, and they began to worry about pan-slavism and Serbians relationship to Russia. So they tried to push onto Serbs that we were "Illyrians", they began calling Serbs such, opening universities and political parties with this name, etc but the Serbs resisted and insisted on being called "Slavo-Serbs". We Serbs have a proud history and we have no need to search for a history from other people.

It is an interesting point because in any case, out of South Slavs, Serbs do seem swayed by this "nativism" least of all South Slavs (aside from the Bulgarians-proper that is)

Insuperable
06-21-2014, 05:36 PM
It doesn't matter what they once were. What matters is what it became. Byzantines settled Serbian and Croatian warrior families there in exchange for our military service against the Avars. As you know, the Herzegovinians don't seem to plot all that differently compared to Croats from Zagreb, I would say the major difference is more "western" plotting for them.

There are records of Slavs and the remaining Roman (I am guessing latin-speaking Illyrians) population living separately in parts of Dalmatia and they started mixing later, 10th century onwards. That is why I put smiley there, as if this Roman population was similar to Belarussians judging by their claims. Zagorci are still way northern plotting, no Croat can compare with them.


Another thing to be mentioned is that areas where Vlachs settled are quiet dark. However what it is interesting is that Hercegovinians as a whole are probably the tallest people in europe, but they are dark, in general Dinaro-med with CM. On the other hand the vlachs in southern albania or other regions such as Myzeqe are exotic too, but they are short and very alpinoid influenced

Herzegovinians Croats and those from SW Bosnia are surely the darkest Croats along with Dalmatian population from the hinterland. While this regions produce the swarthiest people you can find at the same time you can find some of the lightest compared to the entire Croatia which I always found interesting since noticing this things.


Herzegovinians are dark mostly to their lifestyle and climate. The air there is very dry, the sun always shines, and people are mostly outdoors. However if you look at things like "Blue eyes" I don't think there is a difference to other areas of Serbia, I maybe wrong. They are also the tallest of the Balkans I met, but this is mountain life they have adapted to.

Herzegovina is also a big hole. When driving from Herzegovina towards Bosnia you are constantly climbing and it gets colder and colder by a minute. I know when people go to Bosnia in the middle of June to pick up goods and merchandise in Bosnian (central) areas they go there in flip-flops and shorts and people there wearing jackets think they are crazy.

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 06:25 PM
Zagorci are still way northern plotting, no Croat can compare with them.

Red, Herzegovinian Croat, Blue Croat from village on Slovene border.

http://s21.postimg.org/hst2ar25z/croats.png

Insuperable
06-21-2014, 06:33 PM
^That is just one guy from your thread. I posted some more from Herzegovina (andaybe some with partial ancestry. can't recall). I posted 4 people from Zagorje who are very homogeneous while they are more diverse.

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 06:35 PM
^That is just one guy from your thread. I posted some more from Herzegovina (andaybe some with partial ancestry. can't recall). I posted 4 people from Zagorje who are very homogeneous while they are more diverse.

No he is Krunislav, we both have him. The one with partial ancestry (German) plots west to him, like me, but north of me. But anyways Herzegovinians are more variable but I still find this is approximately where Croat Herzegovinians plot.

Insuperable
06-21-2014, 06:40 PM
No he is Krunislav, we both have him.

And he is the one I am having in mind. I mean the one I posted in your thread. The same guy all over again.


The one with partial ancestry (German) plots west to him, like me, but north of me.

Which one is that? I guess that is not the one from Split


But anyways Herzegovinians are more variable but I still find this is approximately where Croat Herzegovinians plot.

Not at all. It is impossible. As I have said I posted some others.

Stefan_Dusan
06-21-2014, 06:47 PM
And he is the one I am having in mind. I mean the one I posted in your thread. The same guy all over again.



Which one is that? I guess that is not the one from Split



Not at all. It is impossible. As I have said I posted some others.

Yes, the one from Split and all the ones you posted looked very northern shifted in this area.

kuqezi
06-22-2014, 07:07 PM
Another thing to be mentioned is that areas where Vlachs settled are quiet dark. However what it is interesting is that Hercegovinians as a whole are probably the tallest people in europe, but they are dark, in general Dinaro-med with CM. On the other hand the vlachs in southern albania or other regions such as Myzeqe are exotic too, but they are short and very alpinoid influenced

Vlach means romanized native so the hercegovinian vlachs are unrelated to Epirus vlachs etc. The fact that they we're romanized is why the non Hercegovina vlachs look more exotic because they were open to foreign influences. Hercegovinian vlachs were isolated romanized Illyrians. I believe the I2a2 is a one of the native Illyrian markers. The original serbocroats were from north around Czechoslovakia and southern Poland and not east around Moldova where the are other I2a2 are present. Anyways the I2 in any form is non Slavic.

Papastratosels26
03-11-2019, 02:29 PM
Didn't know that there were Vlachs in Bosnia.

Ford
03-11-2019, 02:42 PM
Noel Malcolm is an anti-Serbian propagandist, just like most Englishmen.

Ljubic
04-16-2019, 07:17 PM
Arent all south slavs basically slavicized native balkan inhabitants? Why are vlachs so thoroughly discussed on this forum even though most of us have some vlach ancestry anyway?

Sundqvist
04-16-2019, 07:19 PM
Bosniensis explained everything , thread closed

Dick
04-16-2019, 07:27 PM
Arent all south slavs basically slavicized native balkan inhabitants? Why are vlachs so thoroughly discussed on this forum even though most of us have some vlach ancestry anyway?

Yeah. I’m slavovlach and proud

Bosniensis
04-16-2019, 07:33 PM
Yeah. I’m slavovlach and proud

Slavs lived in Bulgaria in Bronze Age than those Greeks and Romans came and mixed with us in Iron Age.

Bronze Age Bulgarian sample is Baltic!!!! Iron Age Bulgarian is Greko-Roman

And if Baltic is Slavic (and it is), then we are 100% authentic Balkan people.

I just can't wait to see more evidences and time when mainstream science, historians will recognize that.

Dick
04-16-2019, 07:37 PM
Slavs lived in Bulgaria in Bronze Age than those Greeks and Romans came and mixed with us in Iron Age.

Bronze Age Bulgarian sample is Baltic!!!! Iron Age Bulgarian is Greko-Roman

And if Baltic is Slavic (and it is), then we are 100% authentic Balkan people.

I just can't wait to see more evidences and time when mainstream science, historians will recognize that.

Yeah bro look at my nmonte. This is why we’re better looking than north slavs. It’s the spicy southern mix

distance%: 0.48

Greek 33.82
Belarusian 23.88
Czech 12.1
Polish 11.31
Albanian 9.71
Montenegrin 9.18

Bosniensis
04-16-2019, 07:45 PM
Yeah bro look at my nmonte. This is why we’re better looking than north slavs. It’s the spicy southern mix

distance%: 0.48

Greek 33.82
Belarusian 23.88
Czech 12.1
Polish 11.31
Albanian 9.71
Montenegrin 9.18

I was studying Law (before I got job in IT)

In a first year of College I was studying those German historians and philosophers Hegel, Marx, Engels etc... and they said: "South Slavs are ethnic trash, without history or anything".

Can you imagine the inferiority complex of South Slavs because of decades of False History... every generation learning "You are Ethnic Trash, nobody"

But that's what you get when you got ass kicked by Germans.

The worst punishment one nation can endure is to be "ERASED FROM HISTORY"

Dick
04-16-2019, 07:49 PM
I was studying Law (before I got job in IT)

In a first year of College I was studying those German historians and philosophers Hegel, Marx, Engels etc... and they said: "South Slavs are ethnic trash, without history or anything".

Can you imagine the inferiority complex of South Slavs because of decades of False History... every generation learning "You are Ethnic Trash, nobody"

But that's what you get when you got ass kicked by Germans.

The worst punishment one nation can endure is to be "ERASED FROM HISTORY"

Meh who cares. We’lol never be erased from history. As for English, Germans etc refugees welcome :heh: