PDA

View Full Version : Scottish Gaelic as a mythical rather than historic language of Scotland.



Beorn
07-22-2009, 07:58 PM
The proposal that the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act should cover the whole of Scotland (not just those areas where Scottish Gaelic remains a central part of local heritage and culture) is based on the assumption that Scottish Gaelic was once spoken across the whole of Scotland. So that even in regions where there is no recent Scottish Gaelic language tradition or culture, Scottish Gaelic remains as a forgotten strand of culture and history.

However, by emphasising Scottish Gaelic as the underlying historic
language of Scotland, there is a danger that a broader and deeper
understanding of Scottish history will be ‘officially’ lost. This is especially true for southern Scotland.

The earliest recoverable language layer in southern Scotland is not Gaelic
but a language related to modern Welsh. And variously described as Brittonic, Cumbric or Old Welsh. This language was spoken from at least 500 BC into the 12th and 13th centuries. It can be traced through place name evidence and gave rise to its own literature in the 6th century - of which the epic poem y Gododdin is the earliest example.

From the 7th century onwards, Old English speakers from the Anglian
kingdom of Bernicia (later Northumbria) extended their influence north along the east coast to the Firth of Forth and west along the Solway Firth, reaching Whithorn in Wigtownshire by AD 700 and gaining territory in Ayrshire around AD 750 and the lower Firth of Clyde. An Old English poem ‘The Dream of the Rood’, carved in runes on the Ruthwell cross in Dumfriesshire has been claimed as the earliest example of Scots literature and may be as early as AD 600.

In south-east Scotland, Old English evolved into Old Scots. There is no
evidence that this evolution was interrupted by a Scottish Gaelic phase.
Although the situation is more complex in south-west Scotland/ Dumfries,
Galloway and south Ayrshire, Old English settlements may have persisted ,
facilitating a similar language evolution.

In Galloway there is place name evidence for Gaelic. However, this was not Scottish Gaelic. It was a form of Gaelic which now survives as Manx Gaelic, which exists only as a revived language. This form of Gaelic was introduced by the Hiberno-Norse Gall-Gaels (foreign Gaels) in the 10th / 11th centuries. It did not reach Galloway from Gaelic speaking Scotland.

Significantly, the Gall-Gael arrived as a ruling elite, replacing the
Northumbrians as ruling elite in the lower-lying more fertile areas. The shift
from Old Welsh to Galloway Gaelic has not been studied. It is likely that a
detailed study of Galloway’s Gaelic place names would show a ‘Gaelicisation’
of Old Welsh originals.

Finally, any suggestion that the existence of Gaelic in Galloway supports the claim that Gaelic was once the national language of Scotland runs counter to the historical fact that up until the death of Alan of Galloway in 1234, its was an independent kingdom. After the death of Alan, the ‘Community of Galloway ‘ chose Thomas, the illegitimate son of Alan, as their ruler ‘to preserve the kingdom’ rather than see it divided between Alan’s three legitimate daughters (or rather their husbands). Scots king Alexander II responded by invading Galloway and defeating an alliance of Manx, Irish and Galwegian forces. The fact that there was Manx and Irish support for Thomas of Galloway against a Scottish invasion reinforces the links suggested between the ‘Gall-Gael of Galloway and their Manx and Irish Gaelic speaking neighbours. If Alexander II can still be considered a Scottish Gaelic king, then Scottish Gaelic influence in Galloway was external and enforced as late as 1235.

Even 100 years later, Galloway supported the claim of Edward Balliol (son of
king John Balliol) to the Scottish throne out of loyalty to the Balliols as
inheritors of the kingdom or lordship of Galloway. After Edward Balliol’s death in 1365, Archibald ‘the Grim’ Douglas became lord of Galloway . He built a castle at Threave on the river Dee to practically and symbolically demonstrate that Galloway was now a province of Scotland. Threave is a Brittonic place name, from y Tref, meaning ‘the settlement’ and can be traced back to at least the Roman era. Dee is also a Brittonic word, meaning ‘river goddess’.

The Gaelic of Galloway is assumed to have survived along the Galloway/
Ayrshire border into the 17th century. If this is so, this survival conflicts with the widely held belief that support for the Jacobite cause was strongest in Gaelic speaking regions. The south-west was the heartland of resistance by the Covenanters to the Stuarts. Support for the Reformation can be traced back as early as the 1530s, when Alexander Gordon of Airds of Parton (an Old English placename) in the north of Galloway had access to an illegal English translation of the New Testament. At secret meetings, there were readings from this text - which would not have been possible if local people were still Gaelic speakers.

Conclusion.

That if, even in Galloway which is considered to have been a Scottish Gaelic speaking area, the historical claim that Scottish Gaelic was once the native tongue is untrue, then the broader claim that Scottish Gaelic was spoken across the whole of Scotland is revealed as a myth. Indeed, this claim requires a deliberate distortion of Scottish history to exclude the prior and continued existence of Old Welsh and Old English in the south of Scotland.

That many people across southern Scotland wish to learn and speak
Scottish Gaelic in the belief that it is the ‘authentic’ language of their ancestors can only used to justify support for Scottish Gaelic at the expense of historical fact. Should the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill become an Act of the Scottish Parliament, myth will be legitimised at the expense of history.

Source:2281

Galloglaich
07-22-2009, 08:42 PM
Not only does this present a problem of muddying the linguistic waters for those regions of Scotland that do not have a tradition of Scots Gaelic, but should be of paramount importance concerning the study of those regions that legitimately do. This will unfortunately result in a pseudo-scholarly lexicon of half-truths based more in romanticism than proper research and will ultimately damage the study of all linguistic components concerned. Unfortunate.

Osweo
07-23-2009, 01:48 AM
Good piece, Wat. Very interesting, with a solid central premise.

the assumption that Scottish Gaelic was once spoken across the whole of Scotland.
Well, it was by some people at least. There are some Gaelic toponyms in the lowlands, outside the Galwegian area. There was some pressure to assimilate. Watson, in his old place-names book, gave an interesting example of a family in which three generations bore given names of the three different linguistic varieties whose fortunes were waxing and waning at the time. On the whole, however, this was rather transitory in the south.

An Old English poem ‘The Dream of the Rood’, carved in runes on the Ruthwell cross in Dumfriesshire has been claimed as the earliest example of Scots literature
*winces*

Although the situation is more complex in south-west Scotland/ Dumfries,
Galloway and south Ayrshire, Old English settlements may have persisted ,
facilitating a similar language evolution.
It can be as good as guaranteed.

In Galloway there is place name evidence for Gaelic. However, this was not Scottish Gaelic. It was a form of Gaelic which now survives as Manx Gaelic,
To label things as Manx or Scottish at such an early date is rather wild. There were mere dialectal differences at this stage. Nowhere near big enough to merit 'language' status.

This form of Gaelic was introduced by the Hiberno-Norse Gall-Gaels (foreign Gaels) in the 10th / 11th centuries. It did not reach Galloway from Gaelic speaking Scotland.
Au contraire, mon frere, there is good reason to suppose an Irish colonisation of the Rhinns and hinterland VERY early, contemporaneous with movements into Wales and the future Dal Riada, following Roman weakening. The early spread of the term Cnoc is rather symptomatic of this. (We even have one on the Wirral - Noctorum)

Finally, any suggestion that the existence of Gaelic in Galloway supports the claim that Gaelic was once the national language of Scotland runs counter to the historical fact that up until the death of Alan of Galloway in 1234, its was an independent kingdom. After the death of Alan, the ‘Community of Galloway ‘ chose Thomas, the illegitimate son of Alan, as their ruler ‘to preserve the kingdom’ rather than see it divided between Alan’s three legitimate daughters (or rather their husbands).
Our Lancashire placename Galgate, formerly Galwethgate, acknowledges the appreciation of this group as something distinct.

Threave is a Brittonic place name, from y Tref, meaning ‘the settlement’
Excellent, first time I'd heard of it! :D We have Treales in Lancashire, from the same. It's ultimately from Latin 'tribus', of course, an echo of late Roman administration.

Should the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill become an Act of the Scottish Parliament, myth will be legitimised at the expense of history.
:(

Beorn
07-23-2009, 01:54 AM
*winces*

What is worthy of a wince, Oswiu? Care to elaborate? :)

Osweo
07-23-2009, 02:14 AM
An Old English poem ‘The Dream of the Rood’, carved in runes on the Ruthwell cross in Dumfriesshire has been claimed as the earliest example of Scots literature
Worthy of more than a wince, really!

There's nowt 'Scots' about the poem. The likeliest author, Caedmon, lived in what became modern Yorkshire.

At the time it was written, there were no tendencies to suggest that there would ever be a distinct version of English north of the Tweed, especially not one that labelled itself with an Irish word 'Scot'! The region was part and parcel of England at the time. Scots belongs to a later era, after the conquest of northern Bernicia. Probably long after. I still hear no difference in the speech of the Borders region.

Paleo
08-17-2009, 05:09 PM
alto of this stuff is common knowledge Wat.

Pict's, britons = language similar to welsh, (p-Celtic)

Gaels= Scottish Gaelic, Old Irish, (q-Celtic)

later lowland Germanic-britons...etc = Doric (Germanic language)

I'm trying to learn a bit of Gáidhlig myself.

Beorn
08-17-2009, 05:14 PM
alto of this stuff is common knowledge Wat.

Oh yeah, I just post it to bring up conversation and incite a debate. It can usually work to educate others who simply didn't know facts before preaching them on European preservation boards. :)


I'm trying to learn a bit of Gáidhlig myself.

Good lad. :thumb001:

I'm getting there slowly but surely with my Old English, and would like to take up Arawn's offer to learn Welsh one day.

Murphy
08-17-2009, 05:22 PM
All this article does it point out the obvious. What would have been even more interesting is an article and discussion on why Scottish Gaelic has been taken up as the second-national language of Scotland.

Regards,
Eóin

P.S. Euan, I can speak a wee bit of Socttish Gaelic my self. At most I can ask for directions :p:cool:! Though I prefer Irish which I am learning. I've been attending the Pádraig Pearse Conradh na Gaeilge in Glasgow for the past few weeks now.

Barreldriver
08-17-2009, 05:32 PM
I'm getting there slowly but surely with my Old English, and would like to take up Arawn's offer to learn Welsh one day.

I'm dabbling in Old English, but I cannot find a dictionary that does not contradict some other out there, what do you use?

Paleo
08-17-2009, 05:43 PM
I'm getting there slowly but surely with my Old English, and would like to take up Arawn's offer to learn Welsh one day.

iv tried to read Doric, and its the hardest reading (close to my dialect) iv tried so far! i would imagine old English is herder though. maybe one day il learn a bit of welsh, but for now Gaelic's is a big enough challenge, i pronounce to words very easily, but readings a nightmare, good fun though!

Paleo
08-17-2009, 05:53 PM
Conradh na Gaeilge[/i] in Glasgow for the past few weeks now.

that's interesting, i at least, want to be able to Oder beer:D, and ask "where's the toilet":tongue. i wish they spoke it when i was at school, i would take Gaelic lessons over french any day!!:) I'm just learning online and listing to the Gaelic speakers on the radio. I'm starting to pick it up:thumb001:.

Beorn
08-17-2009, 06:30 PM
what do you use?

There was once a dashingly handsome English moderator on this forum who had the foresight to post and sticky a thread for just such an occasion to answer you.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1308

:D I do have more links if you are interested.


iv tried to read Doric, and its the hardest reading (close to my dialect) iv tried so far! i would imagine old English is herder though. maybe one day il learn a bit of welsh, but for now Gaelic's is a big enough challenge, i pronounce to words very easily, but readings a nightmare, good fun though!

My problem is not hearing it spoken constantly or having others to practice it with on a day-to-day basis.
What I learn I soon forget, and what I do remember is usually political slogans I shout at foreigners on nights out on the town.

Barreldriver
08-17-2009, 06:45 PM
^þancian

Paleo
08-18-2009, 04:21 AM
My problem is not hearing it spoken constantly or having others to practice it with on a day-to-day basis.
What I learn I soon forget, and what I do remember is usually political slogans I shout at foreigners on nights out on the town.

i forget allot too, that's why i listen to the Gaelic radio, it helps me to sound more fluent.

another technique i try is, to think only in Gaelic, its difficult but it helps me to understand and remember the words better, although its a real rocky road!

we sing:
"GO HOME, THE SLAVE TRADE IS OVER, WHY DONT YAH GO HOME"

Treffie
08-18-2009, 08:38 AM
i forget allot too, that's why i listen to the Gaelic radio, it helps me to sound more fluent.

Recently I've been watching Machair (Gaelic soap) on Alba anDiugh - I've become quite addicted to the goings on in the Western Isles :D


another technique i try is, to think only in Gaelic, its difficult but it helps me to understand and remember the words better, although its a real rocky road!

Learning to think in a Celtic language is very difficult for a non-native speaker/learner - it's not like learning a Romance or another Germanic language, the grammar is structured so completely differently from English, but keep on plugging away and you'll get there in the end.

Paleo
08-18-2009, 10:12 AM
Recently I've been watching Machair (Gaelic soap) on Alba anDiugh - I've become quite addicted to the goings on in the Western Isles :D

iv always liked Gaelic TV, i used to watch morning cartoons in Gaelic, bloody hard to follow without subtitles.but just as entertaining.




Learning to think in a Celtic language is very difficult for a non-native speaker/learner - it's not like learning a Romance or another Germanic language, the grammar is structured so completely differently from English, but keep on plugging away and you'll get there in the end.
i know, i can handle a little afrikaans chat with my mother, but trying remember and re-sight Gaelic's is terrible, but fun hobby. maybe in a few I'll be able to speak better.