Why did the Ustase

[EagleAtHeart]

...persecute Serbs in WW2 but not Albanians or Bosnians?

[mysticism]

Because Serbs were their "pests", and we undermined (and still do) their national awakening (they took our language and many customs).

[Methmatician]

If you're referring to Bosniaks when you say "Bosnians" it's because we were Islamic Croats to them. The only Bosniaks that were persecuted by them were those who opposed them or helped Serbs. Communists mainly; those who supported or joined the Yugoslav Partisans.

[EagleAtHeart]

Because Serbs were their "pests", and we undermined (and still do) their national awakening (they took our language and many customs).

But you're two European Christian people surrounded by Gypsy's and Turks (Albanians/Bosnians) you would think you would be able to settle your differences.

[EagleAtHeart]

If you're referring to Bosniaks when you say "Bosnians" it's because we were Islamic Croats to them. The only Bosniaks that were persecuted by them were those who opposed them or helped Serbs. Communists mainly; those who supported or joined the Yugoslav Partisans.

Most Croats I know consider Bosniaks Turkified gypsies (not my words)

But if you can, link me to some more information and I will be willing to investigate.

I have zero interest in Albanians though.

[Sisak]

Ante Pavelić had been said Zagreb people and people from souronding area are tiny, anorexic and they are not country makers.

[Sisak]

Most Croats I know consider Bosniaks Turkified gypsies (not my words)

But if you can, link me to some more information and I will be willing to investigate.

I have zero interest in Albanians though.

many Bosnian Muslims looks like Slavs, for example Muhamed Filipovic.

[EagleAtHeart]

I think I read somewhere that Hitler was planning on invading the Middle East and he was going to use Bosniak/Albanian Muslims and that's the reason they were a protected class. I don't know if that's true or not.

[mysticism]

But you're two European Christen people surrounded by Gypsy's and Turks (Albanians/Bosnians) you would think you would be able to settle your differences.

Yes however our existence (back then) significantly threatened their identity and existence as a cohesive identity. Because we predate them, and made up about 20% of their territory/area.

Croats didn't live with as many Albs and Muslims as we did so they weren't an issue/threat to them.

[Sisak]

I think I read somewhere that Hitler was planning on invading the Middle East and he was going to use Bosniak/Albanian Muslims and that's the reason they were a protected class. I don't know if that's true or not.

i never heard about it

[Mraz]

Bosniaks throught history always fought for Gemany/Austria's side , so it was natural they side with Nazis.

[mysticism]

Bosniaks throught history always fought for Gemany/Austria's side , so it was natural they side with Nazis.

Bosniaks were fighting on the Ottoman side while sieging Venice
:picard1:

[Mraz]

Bosniaks were fighting on the Ottoman side while sieging Venice
:picard1:

I'm refering as Prussian mercenaries and in the KuK...
The throught was a bit exagerated, but the during the century before WWII we were on Germanic side.

[mysticism]

Ante Pavelić had been said Zagreb people and people from souronding area are tiny, anorexic and they are not country makers.

:picard1: And yet Zagreb was the capital of the NDH

[Methmatician]

Most Croats I know consider Bosniaks Turkified gypsies (not my words)

But if you can, link me to some more information and I will be willing to investigate.

I have zero interest in Albanians though.

They sound like Croats from Stormfront. Pro-Ustaša Croats usually think of us as Islamicised Croats. Ante Pavelić was the one who gave Bosniaks a special place in Croatdom :D A simple wiki page will shed some light.

Searching for work, his family moved to the village of Jezero outside Jajce where Pavelić attended primary school—a Muslim Maktab. Here Pavelić learned Muslim traditions and lessons that influenced his attitude towards Bosnia and its Muslims. Bosnian Muslim culture was later to become a major influence on his political views. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Paveli%C4%87#Birth_and_education)

[mysticism]

yeah, pro-ustasa boslims are known as "hrvatsko cvijece" "Croatian flowers". And most bosno muslims were traditionally ustasha.

[Methmatician]

And about genociding Serbs. The Ustaša wanted a pure Croatia (their Croatia included Bosnia and Herzegovina). Serbs were there biggest obstacle there so they decided that 1/3 would be expelled, 1/3 killed and 1/3 assimilated by force. Serbs in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia were the dominant group and I think Croats felt threatened by that.

[Sisak]

:picard1: And yet Zagreb was the capital of the NDH

His opinion about Zagreb people is this

[Methmatician]

yeah, pro-ustasa boslims are known as "hrvatsko cvijece" "Croatian flowers". And most bosno muslims were traditionally ustasha.

Most Bosnian Muslims did nothing during WWII. I don't know whether they were just too drunk to notice the crap going on around, or they just didn't like to fight. Not surprised, Bosniaks are kinda indifferent to the things going on around them :D A 'meh' mentality as it seems :tongue

[Methmatician]

Also Slovenes were considered "Mountain Croats" by the Ustaša.

[mysticism]

Most Bosnian Muslims did nothing during WWII. I don't know whether they were just too drunk to notice the crap going on around, or they just didn't like to fight. Not surprised, Bosniaks are kinda indifferent to the things going on around them :D A 'meh' mentality as it seems :tongue

lol! Noone in the western balkans "did nothing" either you were an enemy, or a friend. There were set factions and if you tried to be neutral you'd be used by one side and therefore be defacto in their faction. If you resisted you're dead or flee to western europe.

Most Bosnian Muslims were Partizan, and almost equally in Ustasha. A smaller amount were Serbian Chetniks. And an even smaller were the Nazi SS Handzar.

Most Boslims considered themselves Croats and were used by Pavelic to take out their mutual threat: the Serbs. Boslims identified however the powers wanted them to.

[Methmatician]

Most Boslims considered themselves Croats and were used by Pavelic to take out their mutual threat: the Serbs. Boslims identified however the powers wanted them to.

Hence, the 'meh' mentality :rolleyes:

[Sisak]

Zagreb je bio glavni grad koliko ja znam, a za Zagrepčane je bio rekao da su mršavi i da nisu sposobni kao takvi napraviti državu, nisu utemeljitelji države.

[mysticism]

:D Right. I guess we meant the same thing, just conveyed it differenty.

However I'd say the Bosnian Muslims' "official" nationalist side was the SS Handzar. A unit for Boslims only. This unit was subordinate to the Ustasha, which had more Boslims, so I suppose that's why I consider the Boslims traditionally Ustasha.

I find it interesting how the main three sides in the wars had stark differences in perspective of the yugoslav identity:

Ustasha - All Yugoslavs are Croats, Serbs are Vlachs who speak Croatian
Chetniks - All Yugoslavs are Serbs, Croats/Bosniaks/Macedonians are converted Serbs
Partizans - Nationhood and history don't matter, your region is most important.

This is why I think, so many Montenegrins, Macedonians and Boslims became Partizans I think. Partizanhood bred banana-state regionalism.

[Methmatician]

:D Right. I guess we meant the same thing, just conveyed it differenty.

However I'd say the Bosnian Muslims' "official" nationalist side was the SS Handzar. A unit for Boslims only. This unit was subordinate to the Ustasha, which had more Boslims, so I suppose that's why I consider the Boslims traditionally Ustasha.

Of course. The Ustaša was an extreme nationalist movement. And since Bosniaks had to only call themselves Croats and they wouldn't be put into the camps, they went along with it.


I find it interesting how the main three sides in the wars had stark differences in perspective of the yugoslav identity:

Ustasha - All Yugoslavs are Croats, Serbs are Vlachs who speak Croatian
Chetniks - All Yugoslavs are Serbs, Croats/Bosniaks/Macedonians are converted Serbs
Partizans - Nationhood and history don't matter, your region is most important.

Actually, The Ustaša still considered Serbs as Croats who were brainwashed by Orthodox Church.


This is why I think, so many Montenegrins, Macedonians and Boslims became Partizans I think. Partizanhood bred banana-state regionalism.

That's another reason why Bosniaks were so pro-Partizan. They didn't have to call themselves by any ethnicity, thus abiding to their ideology. All they had to do was be anti-Fascist.

Not sure about Montenegrin and Macedonians though. Montenegrins were traditionally non-submissive people. They probably joined the Partisans because they didn't like Italian occupation.

And I think the Macedonian partisans weren't a part of the Yugoslav Partisans at first, I think they were a separate movement all together for the most of the war.

[Mraz]

Of course. The Ustaša was an extreme nationalist movement. And since Bosniaks had to only call themselves Croats and they wouldn't be put into the camps, they went along with it.



Actually, The Ustaša still considered Serbs as Croats who were brainwashed by Orthodox Church.



That's another reason why Bosniaks were so pro-Partizan. They didn't have to call themselves by any ethnicity, thus abiding to their ideology. All they had to do was be anti-Fascist.

Not sure about Montenegrin and Macedonians though. Montenegrins were traditionally non-submissive people. They probably joined the Partisans because they didn't like Italian occupation.

And I think the Macedonian partisans weren't a part of the Yugoslav Partisans at first, I think they were a separate movement all together for the most of the war.

I'm not sure that many Bosniaks joined the Partizans, we were more in Domobranci and Ustasha.

[mysticism]

Actually, The Ustaša still considered Serbs as Croats who were brainwashed by Orthodox Church.

Not according to Ante Starcevic and official Ustasha dogma.



That's another reason why Bosniaks were so pro-Partisan. They didn't have to call themselves by any ethnicity, thus abiding to their ideology. All they had to do was be anti-Fascist.

There was no "their" ideology in the Partisans. There was only Partisan ideology. Which was, basically: socialism, destruction of class-differences, atheism, no tradition/nationalism, no individuality, Tito is god.

You could not be a nationalist Bosniak and Partisan at the same time.

Not sure about Montenegrin and Macedonians though. Montenegrins were traditionally non-submissive people. They probably joined the Partisans because they didn't like Italian occupation.

Chetniks weren't submissive either. The difference is, Montenegrins are extremely prideful and regionalist (a symptom of defending a small peace of land for 500 years) and so joining an ideology where their insignificant selo and pile of rocks came first before any king or government was more appealing to them.


And I think the Macedonian partisans weren't a part of the Yugoslav Partisans at first, I think they were a separate movement all together for the most of the war.

They were very partisan and commie, Apolstolski's faction were no different ideologically than the other partisans, whom they were closely coordinated with.

[Sisak]

My granfather and his brother, my father and many people who I know were members of Partizan movement

[Methmatician]

I'm not sure that many Bosniaks joined the Partizans, we were more in Domobranci and Ustasha.

I'm not counting number of Bosniaks in Yugoslav Partisans as compared to other ethnicities. I mean the number of Bosniaks in Partisans to the number of Bosniaks in other armies.

[Mraz]

I'm not counting number of Bosniaks in Yugoslav Partisans as compared to other ethnicities. I mean the number of Bosniaks in Partisans to the number of Bosniaks in other armies.

Have you stats?

[Methmatician]

Have you stats?

I did. I don't know where they are now though.


My granfather and his brother, my father and many people who I know were members of Partizan movement

Many people in my family as well.

[Insuperable]

...persecute Serbs in WW2 but not Albanians or Bosnians?

Croats had nothing against Albanians or Bosniaks (nor anything against Serbs prior to Yugoslavia I think) but against Serbs only because Serbs during Yugoslavia were the ones who wanted to create Greater Serbia and for that to achieve Croatian identity had to be erased. Croats during Yugoslavia were humiliated, nobility banned and Chetnik crimes during Yugoslavia were present.

Ustashe on Croatian language would mean something like "people who stand up against". In this case people who stand up against opression and dictatorship so the very meaning and the reason of Ustashe existence was incompatible with love for Serbs.

I would love nothing of that happened and that in Yugoslavia we all respected each other, its borders, its culture, cooperation...

[mysticism]

Croats had nothing against Albanians or Bosniaks (nor anything against Serbs prior to Yugoslavia I think) but against Serbs only because Serbs during Yugoslavia were the ones who wanted to create Greater Serbia and for that to achieve Croatian identity had to be erased. Croats during Yugoslavia were humiliated, nobility banned and Chetnik crimes during Yugoslavia were present.

Ustashe on Croatian language would mean something like "people who stand up against". In this case people who stand up against opression and dictatorship so the very meaning and the reason of Ustashe existence was incompatible with love for Serbs.

I would love nothing of that happened and that in Yugoslavia we all respected each other, its borders, its culture, cooperation...

That theory is all well and good...until you realize that the foundations for Ustasa ideology and Serb-hate were before Yugoslavia...

[Insuperable]

That theory is all well and good...until you realize that the foundations for Ustasa ideology and Serb-hate were before Yugoslavia...

What ever was before was nothing more than ideology, wants and needs.
Entering Yugoslavia was a new beginning for all of us at that time.
Therefore it is irrelevant how old are foundations of Ustasha ideology when it is a fact that Ustashe were founded somewhere around 1930s for an obvious reason.

[mysticism]

What ever was before was nothing more than ideology, wants and needs.
Entering Yugoslavia was a new beginning for all of us at that time.
Therefore it is irrelevant how old are foundations of Ustasha ideology when it is a fact that Ustashe were founded somewhere around 1930s for an obvious reason.

The entire Croat intellectual elite hated Serbs vehmently. Ante Starcevic, the so-called father of the nation, wrote book upon book cursing the Serbs. He had followers at that time: the Croatian Peasant Party, who had a large following and generally hated the Serbs and opposed joining Yugoslavia. They're the original Ustasas.

[Anusiya]

I would love nothing of that happened and that in Yugoslavia we all respected each other, its borders, its culture, cooperation...

For most of the Greeks even today it's impossible to distinguish you between Croats and Serbs. We still call you Yugos! It's a shame really, because Yugoslavia was by far the most flexible country from the eastern bloc. We all expected you to have a smoother transition, but the damn interests got in the way.

[~Nik~]

I think one should absolutely avoid to put in the same basket Fascism and Racism. Already musolinian facism had almost nothing to do with any idea of race, what is important for almost all fascism is first and foremost the State. Ustashas were clerical-fascists made on the roman model, so they must be seen as only motivated by the eventual superiority of their nation state.

[Anusiya]

Fascism is legitimized racism, since it more or less pushes for a more homogeneous culture. It would be impossible not to be a racist sooner or later.

[~Nik~]

Fascism is legitimized racism, since it more or less pushes for a more homogeneous culture. It would be impossible not to be a racist sooner or later.

As I already said : for Fascists, the State Nation comes before the Race.

[Insuperable]

For most of the Greeks even today it's impossible to distinguish you between Croats and Serbs. We still call you Yugos! It's a shame really, because Yugoslavia was by far the most flexible country from the eastern bloc. We all expected you to have a smoother transition, but the damn interests got in the way.


Yugo was actually some kind of mini European Union. Yes, Yugo was kind of a flexible country and it was a powerful country of that time. As I have said I would like that we respected each other ethnicity and inter nationalities more and that would mean no Ustashe, no Chetniks, no WW2 casualties (at least between us), no war during 1990s and perhaps we would remain "something" today.

[The.Mask]

...persecute Serbs in WW2 but not Albanians or Bosnians?

I'm not an expert when it comes about WW2 but why the Ustasa's would had something wrong against Albania when the country was annexed by Italy and obviously fascist at the same time.

[Anusiya]

As I already said : for Fascists, the State Nation comes before the Race.

You said it. And since a nation is a group of people who share same customs etc. anything outside is considered unwanted (at least). So, by extension racism manifests just as easily.

[~Nik~]

You said it. And since a nation is a group of people who share same customs etc. anything outside is considered unwanted (at least). So, by extension racism manifests just as easily.

Sharing same customs /=/ being profoundly racist.

And anyway, we are actually living in a democratic, PC turned world, that shows the most fascistic tendencies since these last fifty years, and racism is manifested in a minor level because of the statist repression.

[Sultan Suleiman]

...persecute Serbs in WW2 but not Albanians or Bosnians?

And why is that of any interest to a dingić?

[RenaRyuguu]

omg HRT 1 I am awaiting the news I an Orcadian Croatian a real Ustasa has created life. CROATIAN AWARD.

[RenaRyuguu]

I WANT THIS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Order_of_King_Tomislav

[RenaRyuguu]

I AM RECREATING REAL LILLIUM FAKE DISNEYLAND COUNTRY RIGHT THIS TIME IT FAILED CUZ A JEW DID IT

[RenaRyuguu]

https://i.imgur.com/SwgWXBP.jpg

identity servant theft

cut lifeline

[Petros Houhoulis]

...persecute Serbs in WW2 but not Albanians or Bosnians?

Beause Bosniaks and Albanians allied with the NAZIs with the support of the notorious mufti of Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini). The Albanians in particular were better at war crimes rather than actual combat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg ).