Why Are European Birth Rates Falling?

[Freomæg]

So many of our racial tragedy discussions incorporate concerns over low birth rates, but I thought it would be good to create a central discussion thread where we can focus on the issue of low birth rates and perhaps come to some conclusions as to why this might be happening.

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My belief is this:
Birth rates among indigenous Britons, Germans, Dutch - and most of Europe - are below replacement rate. We've watched our lands go from being prosperous first world nations with strong national and communal unity, to overcrowded, multicultural, debt-ridden, materialistic hell-holes. Whether conscious or subconscious, and even among those who are outwardly pro-multicultural, we have adjusted our procreation rates accordingly. I don't buy this crap about every potential mother being too wrapped up in their career, or Britons losing interest in family life. We're not having children because we can't afford a house and all the other things required to build a good family life. Our schools are becoming minority-white, our health system is struggling, job prospects getting worse and liberties being curbed. In short, it's a terrifying society to bring children into. Not for third-world immigrants, no, even with the state that we're in, Britain is an attractive place to raise families for people who are used to worse.

I say this mainly because these are the precise reasons myself and my girlfriend of 5 years are reluctant to have children, despite how much we'd love to start a family.

[Absinthe]

I don't buy this crap about every potential mother being too wrapped up in their career, or Britons losing interest in family life.

Oh dear, ironically enough, do you know that all my female friends suffer from the fact that they want to get married and have a family and most of Greek men are marriage-phobic? :p

For example, I have a friend who's 29 years old, good looking, successful and an interesting person, and he always complains about being single and not being able to find someone to sweep him off his feet.

I discuss with him about it and he makes it clear that he is interested in a relationship and not just casual sex, and that he really would like a companion instead of a decorative item.

Then what is the problem, you ask?

He says, "I am only hitting on girls who are 25 or younger, because as women reach 26 they start thinking about marriage and family and I don't want to be 'trapped' in a potential marriage situation!" :clap:

Can you see the irony here? :D

And the truth is, that in Greece, for every woman that doesn't want to have kids there's an analogy of two men who don't want to have kids.
Immaturity, fear of commitment, you name it.

As for Europeans in general.... I believe it is our Western lifestyle gone bad and people focusing too much on materialism, consumerism and competition, rather than the simpler values in life.

And I've also heard the following reasoning:

"I want to have kids but I can't afford it"

meaning that

"I can't afford to buy the latest brand clothes and Nike shoes in every new school season, and if I don't, what will his/her classmates say, they'll call my kid a "poor bastard" -and in effect, I'll feel like one". :rolleyes:

[Brynhild]

The bottom line is, IMO, that the dream of owning one's land and putting a house on it is becoming only affordable for those who are prepared to borrow a shitload of money and risk foreclosure. Another problem is that families aren't the same sort of network they used to be, where you lived near mum and dad, had loads of aunties and uncles who could help out. Lots of people have to move away from home just to find work and they're increasingly isolated. If they are fortunate to have any at all, it isn't worth having any more than one or two. I know that in this day and age, having a family is expensive - at every stage of their development.

[Tabiti]

Life style is the main reason. First, you have to study to get proper job, often until 25-30, then you must work to make enough money to survive and care for children.

[Osweo]

OhFor example, I have a friend who's 29 years old, good looking, successful and an interesting person, and he always complains about being single and not being able to find someone to sweep him off his feet.

I discuss with him about it and he makes it clear that he is interested in a relationship and not just casual sex, and that he really would like a companion instead of a decorative item.
I thought you were talking about me until you said;

He says, "I am only hitting on girls who are 25 or younger, because as women reach 26 they start thinking about marriage and family and I don't want to be 'trapped' in a potential marriage situation!" :clap:

:p

Cythraul brought up a good point with his general malaise idea. It can seem depressing now. The hell of immigration society and the new dog eat dog economy it's helped to create don't do us any favours. Historians don't take enough account of such psychological factors in scenarios of ethnic shifts, and I wonder how much role this sort of thing had in the switch from RomanoBritain to England, or Pictavia to Scotland, etc...

A lot of people have simply been unlucky in their circumstances, as in all times, but such a frequency of bad luck does point to underlying regularities. Without an immigration problem, I wouldn't even look on this all as too bad a thing. Behind safe borders, a population a quarter of the modern one or less could still happily transmit our national existence into the future, perhaps even more comfortably for the individuals involved, but nowadays... Ekh.

For myself, it's more or less my own fault. I've dillied and dallied about here and there, not bothering to put down any useful roots, and it's beginning to hit me. And yet I'm at a loss as to what to do from now on. That crippling indecision hardly makes me a decent proposition as husband, no matter how 'nice a guy' I am or whatever. :(

[Freomæg]

"I want to have kids but I can't afford it"

meaning that

"I can't afford to buy the latest brand clothes and Nike shoes in every new school season, and if I don't, what will his/her classmates say, they'll call my kid a "poor bastard" -and in effect, I'll feel like one". :rolleyes:
I disagree with that. When I - someone whose rags are just about hanging together and therefore would ensure that my kid had similar non-materialistic values - say "I can't afford kids", I mean that I can't afford a home, I can't afford to homeschool right now or alternatively move to an area of the country where schools are less heavy on the multiculturalism and indoctrination. And I think that despite the extent of consumerism on Britain, there are actually a lot of young people in an identical position to me. And we've all seen recently how treacherous it can be to take on mortgage repayments, with foreclosures, debt and bankruptcy ruining so many families who previously thought they were secure. I won't risk doing that to my children.

[Absinthe]

I disagree with that. When I - someone whose rags are just about hanging together and therefore would ensure that my kid had similar non-materialistic values - say "I can't afford kids", I mean that I can't afford a home, I can't afford to homeschool right now or alternatively move to an area of the country where schools are less heavy on the multiculturalism and indoctrination.

I was basically talking about Greece, where most people own homes already and are also being helped by their families throughout their life span. :p

Situations are never ideal, but when they say "I can't afford kids" it really means that they view the kids as an extension to themselves showing off their fancy new cars, and it literally means "I can't afford the latest brands for my kid". ;)

In Greece, the positive side about too much dependence on the family is that you'll hardly ever starve, end up homeless or be unable to find someone to keep your kids when at work. The family takes care of that with all the good and bad implications.

So, it really is about vanity and howing off and wanting your kid to be "the most well-dressed and envied kid in school" :wink

That's why you don't see a single kid above 10 years old in Greece that doesn't already have a fancy mobile phone and a number of expensive and up-to-date gadgets as well.

[ikki]

How about there being just a whole lot less sex than there used to be?
http://www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/archives/vol6no2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

[Freomæg]

That's why you don't see a single kid above 10 years old in Greece that doesn't already have a fancy mobile phone and a number of expensive and up-to-date gadgets as well.
Oh, I see :). Yeah it's the same here of course. But, I think when young people first start to aspire towards building a future and a family, they start to reject that level of consumerism. They sacrifice it. Most people are still materialistic, but I refuse to believe that I'm alone in not wanting flash mobile phones, 49" widescreen TVs, brand new cars and expensive jeans.

[Æmeric]

How about there being just a whole lot less sex than there used to be?
http://www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/archives/vol6no2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

I don't think so. Legalized abortion & easier availability to birth control have more to do with a decline in the birthrate. Sex no longers carries the possibility of pregnancy so sex has become more casual. This has as the effect of making many persons more irresponsible & unwilling to commit to longterm relationships. Oh, there is also easier means of obtaining a divorce though cohabitation outside of marriage is more acceptable (even expected before marriage) which negates the need to divorce. Secularism has played a large part in smaller faily sizes as the religous usually have more children. Expanded welfare systems which tax working families making it harder to have children while at the same time subsidizing the procreation of the worst parts of our societies. Many women have fewer children then they want because they have to work & daycare is an issue. The cost of housing has risen much faster then the rate of inflation. And then there are those third-world immigrants, helping to keep wages down & housing costs up.

One other reason not generally brought up in these discussions is urbanization. People who live in cities have always had fewer children then those who live in the country. It was only in the 19th century that most cities obtained a natural rate of increase high enough to guaranty their populations could grow without migration, the number of surviving children per woman being below 2 because of high infant mortality rates. But much of the growth was still from migration from the country.

[Skandi]

"I want to have kids but I can't afford it"

meaning that

"I can't afford to buy the latest brand clothes and Nike shoes in every new school season, and if I don't, what will his/her classmates say, they'll call my kid a "poor bastard" -and in effect, I'll feel like one". :rolleyes:

How about those who can't afford next months rent or food? That is one reason why I don't have children


Life style is the main reason. First, you have to study to get proper job, often until 25-30, then you must work to make enough money to survive and care for children.
Oh yes and pay back all the debt that you incurred while studying. This encourages only the lower end of society to breed.


I disagree with that. When I - someone whose rags are just about hanging together and therefore would ensure that my kid had similar non-materialistic values - say "I can't afford kids", I mean that I can't afford a home, I can't afford to homeschool right now or alternatively move to an area of the country where schools are less heavy on the multiculturalism and indoctrination. And I think that despite the extent of consumerism on Britain, there are actually a lot of young people in an identical position to me. And we've all seen recently how treacherous it can be to take on mortgage repayments, with foreclosures, debt and bankruptcy ruining so many families who previously thought they were secure. I won't risk doing that to my children.

I agree with you, but I do wonder that if we wait till the time is right we will have waited too long and the chance will be gone.


but I refuse to believe that I'm alone in not wanting flash mobile phones, 49" widescreen TVs, brand new cars and expensive jeans. my mobile is 3 years old I have no TV a 15 year old car and £10 jeans...you are not alone

[Freomæg]

I agree with you, but I do wonder that if we wait till the time is right we will have waited too long and the chance will be gone.
I often worry about that, and wonder whether it's best to just have kids and be forced to rise to the challenge. That's probably inevitable.



my mobile is 3 years old I have no TV a 15 year old car and £10 jeans...you are not alone
:thumb001:

[Phlegethon]

It is not a low birthrate - what is much worse is that it is the wrong birthrate. A very thin layer of yuppies who have kids and a overwhelming majority of scum who procreate like rabbits because it means moolah without any work from the state. The societies we live in and the governments we live under make sure that everything is turning into shit at an ever accelerating pace. I'll opt out. By having children you just perpetuate the status quo.

[Octothorpe]

To all my European friends of reproductive age: get your butts over here, now! We need all the healthy whites we can! You can afford to have kids here, there's more breathing room before the racial apocalypse, and, at least here there is a chance of rolling back the tide if we can get the word out! Oh, you can avoid the INS fairly easily--if millions of Mexicans can, surely a European can! :D

[Phlegethon]

I'd rather castrate myself with rusty hedge shears than emigrate to the U.S.

[Vargtand]

Why they are falling? Wealth, necessity of children is decreasing, social stigmas and equality.

[ikki]

Why they are falling? Wealth, necessity of children is decreasing, social stigmas and equality.

In cities 2/3 or even more of all households (atleast in cities) are single households. A family needs just that, a family.

[Æmeric]

I'd rather castrate myself with rusty hedge shears than emigrate to the U.S.

If you come here I will do it for you.:viking4:

[Loki]

And I've also heard the following reasoning:

"I want to have kids but I can't afford it"

meaning that

"I can't afford to buy the latest brand clothes and Nike shoes in every new school season, and if I don't, what will his/her classmates say, they'll call my kid a "poor bastard" -and in effect, I'll feel like one". :rolleyes:

Indeed. That's just a load of nonsense. The REAL reality, is that the richer people get, the fewer kids they have. Go to Africa and India, and see how many children those dirt-poor people have.

[Æmeric]

Indeed. That's just a load of nonsense. The REAL reality, is that the richer people get, the fewer kids they have. Go to Africa and India, and see how many children those dirt-poor people have.

That is true in undeveloped & developing countries. But in the US at least the working poor have very low birthrates. Take West Virginia for example, one of the Whitest (mostly Old Stock) & poorest states:



West Virginia’s resident live births increased by 97, from 20,834 in 2005 to 20,931 in 2006. The 2006 birth rate of 11.5 per 1,000 population was the same as the 2005 rate. The U.S. 2006 birth rate was 14.2 live births per 1,000 population rising above the 2005 rate of 14.0. As the graph below shows, West Virginia’s birth rate has been below the national rate since 1980. It continued its overall decline until 1996, interrupted by slight upturns in 1989 through 1991. It has remained relatively stable since 1996.

http://www.wvdhhr.org/bph/hsc/pubs/vital/2006/exhibit_00.jpg

Source (http://www.wvdhhr.org/bph/hsc/pubs/vital/2006/summary.htm)

In recent years large families have become a symbol of economic success among some groups, e.g Mormons or Evangelical Christians. There are not very many women who have to work who have 3 or more children. I remember reading awhile back where 4 or more children was becoming a status symbol among the wealthy in Manhattan - among Waspish families not Puerto Ricans or Haitians.

[Loddfafner]

I think the largest factor in birthrates is whether a population is organized in economic activities such as farming or peddling where extra children become in effect a captive labor force for their parents or if they need to provide their children with an education such that they are an extra expense.

No amount of persuasion, pestering, and propaganda is going to change the fact that the price of quality is quantity.

I think it is more worth thinking carefully about how to reduce the consequences of this reality. In Europe, I understand that old age pension system is in effect a gigantic ponzi scheme that requires an ever increasing number of immigrants to keep it viable. This is one of the main reasons, and maybe THE main reason, that European elites support immigration as much as they do.

[Phlegethon]

Unskilled immigrants who do not work and thus do not pay taxes only cost. They do not pay into the pension system at all, but after a few decades will receive pension as well.

[Freomæg]

Some good ideas coming out here. Does anyone else feel that the lack of cultural and ethnic homogeneity is a decisive factor in low birth rates? From what I gather, Europeans who have emigrated to Australia or NZ (as examples) are far more family orientated.

[Jarl]

He says, "I am only hitting on girls who are 25 or younger, because as women reach 26 they start thinking about marriage and family and I don't want to be 'trapped' in a potential marriage situation!" :clap:

Can you see the irony here? :D

And the truth is, that in Greece, for every woman that doesn't want to have kids there's an analogy of two men who don't want to have kids.
Immaturity, fear of commitment, you name it.

As for Europeans in general.... I believe it is our Western lifestyle gone bad and people focusing too much on materialism, consumerism and competition, rather than the simpler values in life.


Definitely I agree. I do not think we can put all the low birth-rare issues down to poor financial conditions, that is "most people want to, but cannot afford to have children". No. The case of immigrants, yuppies and the poorest part of the society clearly contradicts this. Definitely if you got nothing to lose, or your are used to India/Pakistan-like conditions, you might as well have lots of children, however that does not explain why rich Western people usually stop at having 2 or 3. I guess the main reason is that they simply do not want to have more.

And the reason for this, like Absinthe said, lies in the strongly materialistic character of the Western world. The lifestyle it entails. It not entirely true that life in some Third World countries is so much harder. It's definitely much less luxuriant, a bit like it used to be 100 or 200 years ago, but it is not necessarily harder. If it was literally so much harder to live in those countries, they would never ever attain such high growth rates. In Third World countries family is the main source of income, and whoever earns more, gets to share more with their closest kin. Thus, large families are more likely to sustain themselves.

In Europe, we got to a stage when family is no longer an aim in itself. It rather became a means. In this highly competitive Western world its is becoming increasingly difficult to have a successful career and at the same time devote time to ones family. One has to choose. And usually it is family that suffers. Definitely the system is oppressive, however that does not change the fact that most people will not so easily compromise their lifestyle in order to have more children.

People get fussy. They all want to have attractive young partners. More people divorce. More severe the links with their parents and closest family. Children do not have time for their elderly parents. Prefer to send them to the carehouse etc. etc. In Third World countries that would be a disgrace. Apart from economics, there is definitely some steady shift of values going on, which causes the gradual erosion of pro-family lifestyle.

[Atlas]

Less materialism among white people in America, Europe and Australia and those birthrates could raise again. The typical European family in the 1800 century was about 10 kids per woman.

It's not that they can't afford it, that's a lame excuse. It's just that they have other priorities at the moment, and now we're in the global crisis so less children even for this year and the next.

What is reassuring though is the falling birthrate of Mexicans in America. About Europe, I can say that I met dozens and dozens of Muslims aged 30 who still don't have any children, why so ? Latest jean, wonderful shoes, Iphone, Ipod, Playstation 3, expensive girlfriend etc etc. If that is not assimiliating... The vast majority of Muslims I have known are like that, not with a beard, their woman a hidjab and go pray 5 times a day.

[Osweo]

About Europe, I can say that I met dozens and dozens of Muslims aged 30 who still don't have any children, why so ? Latest jean, wonderful shoes, Iphone, Ipod, Playstation 3, expensive girlfriend etc etc. If that is not assimiliating... The vast majority of Muslims I have known are like that, not with a beard, their woman a hidjab and go pray 5 times a day.
That is not true for the Pakistanis in my town. They're still happy to marry their first cousin, even after having been to school and college with us all their youth. Nothing to be optimistic about here. Maybe North Africans are different, if that's who you have in mind. I would imagine that you wouldn't have much opportunity to mix with the less assimilated sort in your area, given how they like to keep themselves to themselves.

[Guapo]

It guess it also has to do with the the changing role of women with greater opportunities for education and employment, the emergence of birth control and the ability to mold a lifestyle. Like Loki said, the richer people get the fewer kids they have. Having children isn't for everyone nor is it far from easy but it's definitely worth it especially the first time you hold your baby.

[Freomæg]

Posted by someone on another forum. Couldn't find the link but I trust it's legitimately sourced.


Mental Health Foundation Report

A YouGov survey commissioned by the Mental Health Foundation, found that 70% of people are most worried about terrorism and 58% by immigration. One of the consequences of these and other worries is that 15% of adults expressed a reluctance to have children. 27% felt less inclined to plan for the future. The heavy promotion of immigration as an economic necessity and benefit for Britain in general and England in particular has ignored the psychological effects on the indigenous English. Commenting on the research, clinical psychologist Dr Michael Reddy said:

“Immigration ranks highly as a worry because humans identify themselves as belonging to particular groups who share the same values and codes of behaviour – this is one of our main ways of feeling secure. Feeling a threat to one’s group from an unknown force, such as immigration, can threaten this sense of security and make people feel anxious.”

It appears that globalisation and the promotion of progressive values and policies has had harmful effects on those traditional communal structures which give people a sense of belonging, security and wellbeing. As societies and communities are transformed to meet the needs of economic globalisation, so the level of anxiety and frustration rises. People feel swept along by powerful groups and organisations which are moulding the world to suit their own interests. Individuals and communities feel powerless to control what is happening to them. This gives rise to heightened anger, anxiety and frustration which affects a person’s day-to-day life and mental wellbeing. Dr Andrew McCulloch, Chief Executive of the Mental Health Foundation, pointed out that, “If angst is reaching a level where adults are contemplating whether or not to have children, then this could be a serious mental health issue because the current global issues aren’t going away in a hurry.”

The survey also shows the different responses of men and women. Men felt more angry (53 to 48%), frustrated (49 to 44%) and cynical (32 to 25%) than women, while women say that they feel more anxious (39 to 30%), scared (23 to 11%) and vulnerable (39 to 26%) than men about global problems. Both men and women are made to feel depressed by the lack of power they have to influence changes to their way of life. One of the suggested ways to alleviate adverse feelings is to discuss problems with friends, family and more widely. It is unfortunate that public discussion of immigration is only thought acceptable in terms of economics despite it having severe adverse effects on communal life and the mental health of people who feel that their worries and interests are ignored.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Immigration is also the main reason the cost of having families/children has gone up so much, since there are no longer many low cost 'safe' neighborhoods with decent schools in urban areas and nowhere near as many 'working class' jobs where one can support a family without first spending years in an educational institution and quite possibly get heavily in debt as well.

[safinator]

It is a recurring historical fact, that all civilisations eventually start to decline. The factors that precipitate this can be many and varied, but the decline of any system follows a pattern which invariably begins with economic de-stabilisation.

A mass and steady dilution of the indigenous people by foreigners and their influence further erodes social cohesion, and results in racial confrontation and delineation.

It would be arrogant in the extreme if we assumed that European civilisation would simply blunder on happily for another five hundred years in the same old way.

[jepaaa]

Europe and some east-asia countries like Japan is fucked, last thing what young white/east asian people want is to have a family and a lot of kids, oh well at least somalis and gypsies are doing a lot babies in Europe LOL.