NW Russians are not Finnic

[Hors]

The article says that Russians are genetically homogenous (Y-chromosome and mtDNA) on the whole, while NW Russians are positively NOT Finnic or Baltic by mtDNA, being a distinct Slavic group presumably of Baltic Slavic origin.

http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGGRE/article/view/15/11

Анализ изменчивости митохондриальной ДНК (мтДНК) и Y-хромосомы в популяциях русского населения европейской части России показал, что русские характеризуются низким уровнем генетической дифференциации как по материнским линиям мтДНК, так и по отцовским линиям Y-хромосомы. Более того, генетические различия между русскими популяциями вообще исчезают, если их сгруппировать в соответствии с диалектным членением русского языка или по данным антропологии. Между тем, анализ изменчивости мтДНК в популяциях северной части Европы показал, что некоторые русские популяции Северо-Западного региона России (Псков и Великий Новгород) и поляки Северо-Восточной Польши (Сувалки) достоверно отличаются от соседних популяций славянского (русские и поляки), балтского (литовцы) и угро-финского (эстонцы, карелы, финны) происхождения. Полученные генетические данные позволяют рассматривать псковско-новгородское русское население в качестве отдельной славянской группировки в составе современных восточных славян.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's all very nice- but too bad that we can't read it :)

[Hors]

I'm not sure, but perhaps there is an English version, I just was not able to find it now.

Use an on-line translator.

[The Lawspeaker]

Any programs you can recommend ? As I usually have a very hard time (and never succeeded) in finding a decent translator.

[Hors]

Judge for yourself

http://www.translate.ru/

The variability analysis митохондриальной DNA (мтДНК) and Y-chromosomes in populations of Russian population of the European part of Russia has shown that Russian are characterised by low level of genetic differentiation both on parent lines мтДНК, and on fatherly lines of a Y-chromosome. Moreover, genetic distinctions between Russian populations in general disappear, if them to group according to dialect partitioning of Russian or according to anthropology. Meanwhile, the variability analysis мтДНК in populations of northern part of Europe has shown that some Russian populations of Northwest region of Russia (Pskov and Great Novgorod) and Poles of Northeast Poland (Сувалки) authentically differ from the next populations slavic (Russian and Poles), балтского (Lithuanians) and Finno-Ugrian (Estonians, Karelians, Finns) origins. The obtained genetic data allows to consider the pskovsko-Novgorod Russian population as separate slavic grouping as a part of modern east Slavs.

[The Lawspeaker]

Unfortunately. The translation stutters a bit and not everything is translated. But what I read is interesting enough.
The source seems to be genuine and the publication recent. No Soviet studies this time. But the question I am asking myself is this one: what happened to the Finnic and Baltic population ?

[Creeping Death]

The article says that Russians are genetically homogenous (Y-chromosome and mtDNA) on the whole, while NW Russians are positively NOT Finnic or Baltic by mtDNA, being a distinct Slavic group presumably of Baltic Slavic origin.
The Russians are becoming very proactive in this arena, I notice the Russians are attempting to distance themselves from any Scandinavian DNA by claiming the ancient Rus were Slavic.

[Hors]

Unfortunately. The translation stutters a bit and not everything is translated.

The program does not have the genetics vocabulary. Works fine with general texts thou.


But what I read is interesting enough.
The source seems to be genuine and the publication recent. No Soviet studies this time. But the question I am asking myself is this one: what happened to the Finnic and Baltic population ?

Partially assimilated, partially eliminated, partially expelled.

Not that they were numerous. Finnics, being primitive hunters and gatherers needed a lot of space to survive, while advanced hornicultural Slavs were able to reproduce in much greater numbers on the same territory, or rather on the territory available for agriculture, while scarce bands of Finnics were limited to swamps.

[Äike]

Source: Estonian genome project foundation (http://www.geenivaramu.ee/?id=153) This is one of the most advanced genome research centers in Europe:coffee:


TÜ Eesti Geenivaramu direktor professor Andres Metspalu koos kaastöötajatega otsib seoseid geenide, keskkonnafaktorite, elustiili ja inimeste tervisliku seisundi vahel, mis annavad võimaluse haigusi ennetada ja paremini elada. Tulevikus. Täna on geenikaardid veel nii keerulised, et neid ei suuda lugeda arst ega apteeker.

TÜ Eesti Geenivaramu direktor professor Andres Metspalu koos kaastöötajatega otsib seoseid geenide, keskkonnafaktorite, elustiili ja inimeste tervisliku seisundi vahel, mis annavad võimaluse haigusi ennetada ja paremini elada. Tulevikus. Täna on geenikaardid veel nii keerulised, et neid ei suuda lugeda arst ega apteeker.

Milline siis on see meie geeneetiline struktuur ja kas me erineme ka maakonniti?

Meil on väga ühtlane kogukond. Jõgevamaa kohta eraldi ei ole näiteks mitte midagi ütelda, see on täiesti Eesti keskmine maakond, sealsed geenidoonorid on tüüpilised eestlased. Eesti lõikes erinevad teineteisest kõige rohkem saarlased ja setud, nende vahe on juba märgatav, kui uurides kasutada meetodit, millega saab minna päris detailseks, vaadelda nagu mikroskoobi all.

Setumaa ja Põlva piirkond moodustavad väikese omaette rahvakillu eestlaste sees, nad on ülejäänud Eestist erinevad oma geenikaardi poolest, aga ainult õige vähe. Väliseid tunnuseid ei ole muidugi näha, aga me analüüsime 370 000 geenimarkerit, need enamasti ei mõjuta otseselt midagi, mis silmaga näha oleks, aga ta näitab seda, kuidas ajaloo jooksul mingi rahvakild on isekeskis kauem koos elanud ja teistest eraldi.

Mandrimehel on kindlam võtta saare naine, siis on väiksem tõenäosus, et lapsele satuks mingi haruldane haigus. Kuid eestlaste enda ränne on viinud meid selleni, et ega me enam suurt ei suuda eristada eestlasi omavahel. Saarlastel küll on ka natukene rootsi mõju, mitmed geenimutatsioonid, mis on Skånes (Lõuna Rootsis), on ka Saaremaal esindatud.

Olete vaadelnud ka meie naaberrahvaste geeniandmeid, mis sealt välja tuleb?

Eestis oleme just äsja koostatud esimesed 1000 geenikaarti ja neid nüüd teistega võrrelnud. Oleme uurinud nii venelasi, sakslasi, leedulasi, tÅ¡ehhe kui ka lätlasi. Loodame saada lähiajal ka soome ja rootsi andmed. Paneme kokku kõik ümber Balti mere olevad rahvad, siis näeme, kui sarnased või erinevad me oleme.

Siin on kaart, kus on baierisakslased, aga kaks eestlast on sattunud hulka. Ilmselt on tegemist baltisakslastega, kes on nii äraeestistunud, et on pannud ennast kirja eestlastena, kuid geenianalüüs on nii tundlik, et registreerib nad kaardile ikka sakslastena.

Venemaa kaart aga näitab, et vähemalt Loode-Venemaal on palju inimesi , kes räägivad vene keelt, kuid geneetiliselt on väga sarnased soomeugrilastega.

Translation of bold text: The Russian map shows that in North Western Russia, there are lots of people who speak Russian, but genetically they are very similar to Finno-Ugrics.

If you don't believe me, then use a translator :coffee:

[EWtt]

This study disagrees: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2253976



One of these antedates the linguistic split between West and East Slavonic-speaking people and is common for the two groups; the other is genetically highlighted by the pre-eminence of haplogroup (hg) N3 and is most parsimoniously explained by extensive assimilation of (or language change in) northeastern indigenous Finno-Ugric tribes.

It is common linguistic knowledge(32) that in the northern Russian dialect, Finno-Ugric substratum is well pronounced. This substrate is present, although less so, in central dialect and only marginally detectable in southern dialect.
This scenario of admixture (or language change) in northern Russians is genetically highlighted by high frequencies of haplogroups N2 and N3. Within Europe, haplogroup N3 is frequent among Finnic-speaking groups (40% on average); its average frequency in Slavonic populations (except Russians) is 5% only, whereas its frequency in northern Russians is 35%

NW Russians do have Y-chromosome haplogroup N. 35% - that's about the same as Estonians, maybe even a bit more. ;)

As for maternal lines, the Estonian ones are also typically European.

[Hors]

Translation of bold text: The Russian map shows that in North Western Russia, there are lots of people who speak Russian, but genetically they are very similar to Finno-Ugrics.

Why not? Karelians, Vepses, Ingrians etc.


This study disagrees:

You're either retarded or have the reading disability. Or both.


This scenario of admixture (or language change) in northern Russians is genetically highlighted by high frequencies of haplogroups N2 and N3. Within Europe, haplogroup N3 is frequent among Finnic-speaking groups (40% on average); its average frequency in Slavonic populations (except Russians) is 5% only, whereas its frequency in northern Russians is 35%

The authors are talking about NE and Northern Russians, not NW ones.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=2253976&blobname=gr2.jpg


NW Russians do have Y-chromosome haplogroup N. 35% - that's about the same as Estonians, maybe even a bit more.

That's just another unsubstantiated out-of-fat-Finnic-arse silly allegation.

[Loki]

You're either retarded or have the reading disability. Or both.



:nono:

[Hors]

Finnics intentially spam the thread with evident non-sense.

Here's the undeniable proof:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=2253976&blobname=gr2.jpg

[EWtt]

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=2253976&blobname=gr3.jpg

You should get your DNA tested (well, if you can afford it), even you might be a Sovieticized chukhna, if not Mongol-Tatar offspring.

[Äike]

Finnics intentially spam the thread with evident non-sense.

Here's the undeniable proof:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=2253976&blobname=gr2.jpg

Yeah, non-sense approved by one of the most advanced Genome Research Centers in Europe:laugh:

Thread title: "NW Russians are not Finnic" Didn't I already prove that NW Russians are very Finnic?

[EWtt]

Western Russians more similar to Estonians than to Northern Russians


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Khrunin_map.jpg

This study looks at the relationship between Estonians and two Russian populations, from the North and West of the country (Mezen and Andreapol districts respectively) . Only 425 SNPs are used, from 25 genomic regions, and no comparisons made with other groups. It certainly would've been interesting to add Siberians, Central Europeans and Southern Russians to the analysis. Nevertheless, it's a useful effort, proving that Andreapolians are genetically more similar to the Finno-Ugrian Estonians than their own Russian brethren from Mezen. In other words, the results show a closer correlation with geography than ethnic ties.

In general, the entire set of 452 SNPs had a mean Fst value of 0.0054, indicating a relatively low level [33] of population differentiation. As for variations between populations, a minimal mean Fst value of 0.0022 was observed when comparing Estonians with Andreapol Russians. In two other pairwise comparisons, the mean Fst values were higher: 0.0058 for Andreapol Russians versus Mezen Russians, and 0.0078 for Estonians versus Mezen Russians.

Our results suggest a high degree of tag SNP portability between Estonians and Russians, and lead us to predict that possible confounding effects during association studies using the genomic regions analyzed are likely to be minimal. Furthermore, the observed genetic similarity of the three populations used in this study may be due to their historical formation on a cognate genetic basis (Finno-Ugrian and/or Baltic), or may even have originated in more ancient times, when the populations that inhabited the territories to the south/southeast of the Baltic Sea coast existed as a global regional community [38, 39].

Andrey Khrunina et al, Analysis of Allele and Haplotype Diversity Across 25 Genomic Regions in Three Eastern European Populations, Hum Hered 2009;68:35-44 (DOI: 10.1159/000210447)

[Hors]

Of course Western Russians are more similar to Estonians, who being victims of centuries of rapes by Germanics, Slavs and Baltics are not pure Finnics by blood, than to Northern Russians who are simply Russified pure blooded Finnics.

I wonder, when TA Finnic morons will stop spamming the thread with irrelevant BS?

We're talking about NW Russians, who are neither by mtDNA, nor by Y-chromosome could be considered substantially Finnic. That's what science says. And, no, neither BS about other Russian groups nor falsification of data could disprove it or even make it look doubtful.

[Äike]

Of course Western Russians are more similar to Estonians, who being victims of centuries of rapes by Germanics, Slavs and Baltics are not pure Finnics by blood, than to Northern Russians who are simply Russified pure blooded Finnics.

I wonder, when TA Finnic morons will stop spamming the thread with irrelevant BS?

We're talking about NW Russians, who are neither by mtDNA, nor by Y-chromosome could be considered substantially Finnic. That's what science says. And, no, neither BS about other Russian groups nor falsification of data could disprove it ot even make it look doubtful.


Source: Estonian genome project foundation (http://www.geenivaramu.ee/?id=153) This is one of the most advanced genome research centers in Europe:coffee:


TÜ Eesti Geenivaramu direktor professor Andres Metspalu koos kaastöötajatega otsib seoseid geenide, keskkonnafaktorite, elustiili ja inimeste tervisliku seisundi vahel, mis annavad võimaluse haigusi ennetada ja paremini elada. Tulevikus. Täna on geenikaardid veel nii keerulised, et neid ei suuda lugeda arst ega apteeker.

TÜ Eesti Geenivaramu direktor professor Andres Metspalu koos kaastöötajatega otsib seoseid geenide, keskkonnafaktorite, elustiili ja inimeste tervisliku seisundi vahel, mis annavad võimaluse haigusi ennetada ja paremini elada. Tulevikus. Täna on geenikaardid veel nii keerulised, et neid ei suuda lugeda arst ega apteeker.

Milline siis on see meie geeneetiline struktuur ja kas me erineme ka maakonniti?

Meil on väga ühtlane kogukond. Jõgevamaa kohta eraldi ei ole näiteks mitte midagi ütelda, see on täiesti Eesti keskmine maakond, sealsed geenidoonorid on tüüpilised eestlased. Eesti lõikes erinevad teineteisest kõige rohkem saarlased ja setud, nende vahe on juba märgatav, kui uurides kasutada meetodit, millega saab minna päris detailseks, vaadelda nagu mikroskoobi all.

Setumaa ja Põlva piirkond moodustavad väikese omaette rahvakillu eestlaste sees, nad on ülejäänud Eestist erinevad oma geenikaardi poolest, aga ainult õige vähe. Väliseid tunnuseid ei ole muidugi näha, aga me analüüsime 370 000 geenimarkerit, need enamasti ei mõjuta otseselt midagi, mis silmaga näha oleks, aga ta näitab seda, kuidas ajaloo jooksul mingi rahvakild on isekeskis kauem koos elanud ja teistest eraldi.

Mandrimehel on kindlam võtta saare naine, siis on väiksem tõenäosus, et lapsele satuks mingi haruldane haigus. Kuid eestlaste enda ränne on viinud meid selleni, et ega me enam suurt ei suuda eristada eestlasi omavahel. Saarlastel küll on ka natukene rootsi mõju, mitmed geenimutatsioonid, mis on Skånes (Lõuna Rootsis), on ka Saaremaal esindatud.

Olete vaadelnud ka meie naaberrahvaste geeniandmeid, mis sealt välja tuleb?

Eestis oleme just äsja koostatud esimesed 1000 geenikaarti ja neid nüüd teistega võrrelnud. Oleme uurinud nii venelasi, sakslasi, leedulasi, tÅ¡ehhe kui ka lätlasi. Loodame saada lähiajal ka soome ja rootsi andmed. Paneme kokku kõik ümber Balti mere olevad rahvad, siis näeme, kui sarnased või erinevad me oleme.

Siin on kaart, kus on baierisakslased, aga kaks eestlast on sattunud hulka. Ilmselt on tegemist baltisakslastega, kes on nii äraeestistunud, et on pannud ennast kirja eestlastena, kuid geenianalüüs on nii tundlik, et registreerib nad kaardile ikka sakslastena.

Venemaa kaart aga näitab, et vähemalt Loode-Venemaal on palju inimesi , kes räägivad vene keelt, kuid geneetiliselt on väga sarnased soomeugrilastega.

Translation of bold text: The Russian map shows that in North Western Russia, there are lots of people who speak Russian, but genetically they are very similar to Finno-Ugrics.

If you don't believe me, then use a translator :coffee:

Tell me something, did you skip my last post?

[Hors]

I did say something, see above.

Besides, could you please post the maps in question. Without them the info is meaningless.

[Äike]

I did say something, see above.

Besides, could you please post the maps in question. Without them the info is meaningless.

I think that you're the only person who doubts in the data of one of the most advanced genome research centers in Europe:wink

[Hors]

First of all, I'd like to see it. Not to doubt the data without seeing it is for Estonians who are well known for their "acumen"...

[Äike]

First of all, I'd like to see it. Not to doubt the data without seeing is for Estonians who are well known for their "acumen"...

I just got a rep comment.

quit feeding the troll?

I think that I'll just do that :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_USBTmvBS82o/SdZJRTbAezI/AAAAAAAAAOg/5mok1or8UBM/S240/dont-feed-troll.jpg

[Hors]

I also got a rep comment from a reputable TA oldtimer recently:


what's the point even debating these retards

So, Estonians and other witless - bye for now! :)

[RoyBatty]

Any programs you can recommend ? As I usually have a very hard time (and never succeeded) in finding a decent translator.

Try google, it's not perfect but not bad.

[1] - Goto
http://translate.google.com/

[2] - Paste
http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGGRE/article/view/15/11

in the box.

[3] - Select Russian > English (Or Dutch) etc

[4] - Click Translate

[Hweinlant]

NW Russians have strong Finnic background, Chudes & Rus et al from Viking Era but also lot of Slav & Turk genes from modern era.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Not that they were numerous. Finnics, being primitive hunters and gatherers needed a lot of space to survive, while advanced hornicultural Slavs were able to reproduce in much greater numbers on the same territory, or rather on the territory available for agriculture, while scarce bands of Finnics were limited to swamps.

To hunt and survive in the north is to be advanced. Finnics were practicing agriculture as well.

Your interpretation is childish at best.

[Hweinlant]

To hunt and survive in the north is to be advanced. Finnics were practicing agriculture as well.


Obviously there was farming in SW Finland and in Tavastia but the main income of the Rus' was not from farming. Rus' who lived around lake Ladoga did not really farm. Their way of living would be considered "biker gang 1%" by modern societies. They sold slavs as slaves (to jewish-khazars and turk-bolgars), smugled weapons (blades) and furs. Furtrading was their number 1 business.

"As for the Rus, they live on an island ...that takes three days to walk round and is covered with thick undergrowth and forests; it is most unhealthy....They harry the Slavs, using ships to reach them; they carry them off as slaves and...sell them. They have no fields but simply live on what they get from the Slav's lands....When a son is born, the father will go up to the newborn baby, sword in hand; throwing it down, he says, "I shall not leave you with any property: You have only what you can provide with this weapon.""

-Ibn Rustah

This island? Karelian Isthmus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelian_Isthmus

[Brännvin]

Craniometric evidence for Slavic-Finnic admixture in medieval Novgorod

The two main sources of the Russian population are well known by genetic evidence, but it is nice to see the historical process of admixture between Slavs and Finns visible in the anthropological record as well. The evidence for the presence of a Baltic component is more surprising in the light of genetic evidence, but at present diagnostic markers of Baltic admixture in uniparentally inherited markers do not appear to be available. Certainly, the high-resolution study of variation in the common N1c an R1a1 Y-chromosome haplogroups may reveal whether differences between Slav, Balt, or Finn (a) still exist, (b) do not exist because of a common substratu, (c) do not exist due to gene flow between the three linguistic groups.

From the paper:

Groups from 13th–14th century burials at Slavenka and Konezerie, and from 14th–16th century burials in Pskov are morphologically heterogeneous, and the variation exceeds that seen in non-admixed groups. Certain crania are markedly Caucasoid, displaying large and dolichocranic braincases, a sharp horizontal facial profile, a high face and a sharply protruding nose. Others are gracile, brachycranic, and have flattened low faces and flattened noses. The former are far fewer than the latter; most individuals are intermediate. The correlation coefficients also attest to heterogeneity; some of them, while concerning morphologically independent traits, are highly significant, and the same heterogeneity is revealed by the principal component analysis (Sankina, 2000).

...

According to the Mahalanobis distance values, Baltic parallels are especially marked for early Novgorodian groups, whereas Finnic parallels are typical of late groups. While the early and the late groups are very different, continuity between them is evidenced by a combination of intercorrelated traits discovered in the late groups from the upper Luga, Pskov, and the Ingrian Plateau. Speaking of the resemblance between the late Novgorodians and the Finns, it should not be overlooked that most of the former either had absorbed the Finnic substratum or were assimilated descendants of the local Finns. :D This concerns a group from Slantsy district, certain late groups of the Ingrian Plateau, and many others which, judging by archaeological evidence, were influenced by the traditions of the Baltic Finns.

While the presence of the Finnic element, which manifests itself in late Novgorodian groups, which cannot be disputed, the “Baltic” tendency of early Novgorodians is more difficult to explain. Large-scale Baltic presence in the Novgorodian territory during the pre-Slavic period (Early Iron Age) is evidenced by both archaeological and toponymical data. Recent archaeological and linguistic findings suggest that by the time of the Slavic colonization (7th century AD), Balts and Finns lived in the territory of northwestern Russia side by side, and the Balts which were numerically predominant, :D migrated to this territory several times, both from the east (the Dnieper basin) and from the west (the Vistula basin) (Vasiliev, 2008). Certain Baltic groups were apparently assimilated by the Slavs. Notably, among the fourteen 10th–13th century eastern Slavic groups from other territories, only three resemble the Balts. Another explanation may be that Balts, Slavs and Finns had absorbed the same ancient European substratum, which had been widely distributed in the past.

Of course, some non-Slavic elements may have participated in the population history of medieval Novgorod in more recent times. For instance, it is hardly accidental that the early group from Pskov is similar to populations of southeastern Estonia, which borders on the Pskov region.

Archaeology, Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia
Volume 37, Issue 2, June 2009, Pages 119-134

The Ethnic History of Medieval Novgorod (Based on Craniometric Data)

S.L. Sankina

Cranial series from cemeteries on the territory of the medieval Novgorod Republic were subjected to multivariate analysis. Northwestern Russia is the region where important population changes occurred in the early 2nd millennium AD. As a rule, earlier groups (11th – early 13th centuries) are dolichocranic and exhibit a sharp horizontal facial profile. In those series whose lower chronological limit is 11th–12th centuries, diachronic morphological changes can be traced. In later groups (13th–14th centuries), the cranial index is higher than in earlier ones (11th – early 13th centuries), whereas cranial height and nasal protrusion angle decrease, and the orbits become narrower. Series from the 13th– 16th century cemeteries apparently attest to an admixture. A combination of traits, correlated mostly at the between- group level (orbital breadth, nasal height, and nasal prominence angle), points to the presence of two components. This combination separates early and late Novgorod groups, at the same time opposing neighboring non-Slavic populations. While early groups (11th–13th centuries) resemble the 10th–18th century Balts, late ones (late 13th – early 20th centuries) resemble various Finnic groups of the same period.

From Dienekes's Blog (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/09/craniometric-evidence-for-slavic-finnic.html) :eek:

[Hweinlant]

That study seems to be political. City of Novgorod was very much Finnic from the beginning (as was Ladogan Rus', predecessor of Novgorod). Typical Russian pan-slavic bolshevik history writing, trying to make it Finniced, so that (pan)Slavs would have the "original population" rights. It is understandable as they see Novgorod as originating place of Russian statehood. This is not true at all. Modern Russia originates from the (tatar-asian-slav) state of Moscovia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Moscow

There conquered Novgorod Republic and annexed her lands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_republic

[Hors]

To hunt and survive in the north is to be advanced.

Absolutely. Here Finns are next only to Chukchi (their closest blood relatives)

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Hors, say "Hi" to your closest bloodrelative, the Khoton:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/16/21855944_1679244f80.jpg

[Motörhead Remember Me]

We're talking about NW Russians, who are neither by mtDNA, nor by Y-chromosome could be considered substantially Finnic. That's what science says. And, no, neither BS about other Russian groups nor falsification of data could disprove it or even make it look doubtful.

AAAAHHHHHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10...n-eastern.html


The East European (Russian) Plain is a region in which peoples of the Indo-European and Uralic language families have come into contact over an extended period. Uralic-speaking peoples have the longest validated archaeological record in this region [17]. The most recent large-scale migration to this region involved the movement of Slavs (the Indo-European language family) to the east and northeast of their presumed homeland in Central Europe about 500 AD [18,19]. Slavs were not the first Indo-European-speaking people who arrived in the Russian Plain: in the firstmillennium BC, Baltic-speaking tribes occupied a large part of the East European Plain [17]. They were later displaced by Slavic tribes. According to the widely accepted hybridization theory of the origin of Eastern Slavs [20], Slavic populations arriving in the East European Plain were mixed with indigenous Uralic- and, probably, Baltic-speaking people.
...
Populations in the northwestern (Byelorussians 2 from Mjadel’), northern (Russians from Mezen’ and 6 from Oshevensk; Komi 3), and eastern parts (Russians 4 from Puchezh and Chuvash) of the East European Plain have relatively high frequencies of haplotype B2-D2-A2, which may reflect admixture with Uralic-speaking populations.Uralic genetic substratum in these regions, which were inhabited by Uralic-speaking tribes as late as the Early Middle Ages, was also shown by studies in which other genetic markers were used (mtDNA, Y-chromosome, and autosomal). Thus, the analysis of DRD2 haplotypes supports results on Slavic-Uralic admixture obtained using other markers, mainly neutral and sex-specific markers.

Hors, embrace your inner Finno Ugrian! Let your Uralic SOUL come forward and lay of that Slavic bull...

[Hors]

AAAAHHHHHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mjadel is on the border with Lithuania, Russian sample points are in the East or in the area of the Tver Karelians (the only NW Russians here). So nothing new, no reason for you to piss into your pants...

[Motörhead Remember Me]

So, Hors. Are Northwestern Russians roots Uralic/Finno Ugrian/Finnic or not?

P.S. Putin is a Veps from Tver region D.S.

[Hweinlant]

P.S. Putin is a Veps from Tver region D.S.

Sort of Veps, like all Ruskies are sort of Ruskies. Quarter Jew, Quarter Slav, Quarter Finn and Quarter Turk = Modern Russian .