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Onur
11-30-2012, 08:53 PM
The Greek invasion of Turkey was one of the most bloodiest wars ever happened in the history, which caused the death of ~530.000 Turkish people according to the findings of the international report committee. Greeks also lost around 310.000 people but the difference was the Turkish casualties was mostly civilians while Greek ones was mostly soldiers from Greece mainland.

I have great deal of materials about this issue and i will post in this thread whenever i have time for that.


This one is a clip from a BBC documentary called as "The Twenties in Colour, Middle East: The Birth of Nations". It shows the devastating result of the Greek invasion of Turkey between 1919-1922 with videos from British archives and some colored photographs from Albert Khan collection.

There are scenes of devastated cities from aegean to central Anatolia because of Greek army`s scorched earth policy, so they totally burned all the towns, cities and villagers as they gradually lost the war vs the advancing Turkish army. There are also photographs of people who survived from the massacres of the Greek army, living in extreme misery inside coves of trees or the people who lost their minds after witnessing their familiar townsfolk getting burned alive inside the mosques by the Greeks. And finally the miserable plight of Rum/Greek minority in Izmir who fled from the country in rush along with the Greek soldiers by fearing of possible Turkish reprisal against them;

oRDBVmTlPaA

Anusiya
11-30-2012, 09:02 PM
310.000 Greeks out of which most of them were soldiers??

A bit less than 200.000 is the number of Greek soldiers mobilized at any given time between 1919 and 1922!

Oh God, here we go again...

Onur
11-30-2012, 09:42 PM
Greece was neutral during the WW-1 but after the war was over in 1919, England demanded Greece to enter the war and occupy Aegean side of Anatolia after they disbanded the whole Turkish army.

British empire requested this from Greece because they were already wasted all their resources during the 4 years of war. On the other hand, WW-1 was over and Ottoman empire already accepted the defeat but Turks still had whole Anatolia and today`s Iraqi territories inside the empire. British empire was desiring to occupy Iraq because of the vast oil resources in there but they needed someone else to keep Turkish people busy while they were doing that.

The German Bavarian king of Greece refused the British offer by saying that Greece wont enter an adventure in Anatolia. He also probably did that because he was a German himself and Germany was the ally of Ottoman empire in the war.

When the German king of Greece refused their offer, British state organized a coup d`etat against the Bavarian king and assigned Greek nationalist E. Venizelos as a prime minister of Greece. Just after a week of coup d`etat, Venizelos announced that they will go to Izmir and occupy it on behalf of England to realize "Megali idea" of the neo-Greek state. The Greek army entered Anatolia and British empire was finally able to concentrate on Iraqi oil fields.

The rest of the events are already getting described in the video above.

Onur
11-30-2012, 09:44 PM
In a rare honesty from Greece, a Greek journalist named as Tasos Kostopoulos wrote a book about the atrocities done by the Greek army in Anatolia by using the international reports and memoirs of the Greek soldiers who returned to their homeland after the war.


http://www.aformi.gr/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/exofilo.jpg

"War and Ethnic Cleansing: The Forgotten Side of a Ten-Year National Surge, 1912-1922 (Πόλεμος και εθνοκάθαρση - Η ξεχασμένη πλευρά μιας δεκαετούς εθνικής εξόρμησης, 1912-1922)


Here is an article with a small excerpt from the book;

A new book was written by a Greek journalist and researcher to shed light on the concealed facts of brutalities and massacres committed by Greek army.

Tasos Kostopulos' last book, '1912- 1922 War and Ethnic Cleansing', reveals the facts hidden from Greek people about what really happened in the dark pages of their history.

The book emphasizes on brutalities, massacres and violence committed by irregular Greek army in Balkans and Anatolia against Turkish population. The facts on how Greek soldiers mass murdered thousands of civilian people and usurped their homes, fields, and belongings are documented in the book. The people lucky to be able to run away from the murderous Greek army had to leave their homes and belongings and move to Anatolia in order to save their lives. The book describes Venizelos as an opportunist politician who tried to expand the territories of Greece in Anatolia based on excuses and his destructive ambitions.

The book includes a lot of memories of people. The following is from the memoirs of a Greek officer, named A. Dimitriou:

"25 December 1920. We entered Kopruhisar with our forces around noon. I saw armed Greek soldiers entering homes and shops of people breaking the doors. There were screams of Turkish civilians, cries of women all around the village. Sometimes I was hearing shootings. While walking on the streets, I saw a an open door. I entered inside. Next to the stairs, there was the dead body of an old Turkish civilian. I heart rows and screams coming from further inside. I moved in. There were around 10 Greek soldiers their clother in dirt and mud, lying on the floor, bursting in laughter and joy. They were raping a Turkish girl, who has half naked, her clothes being ripped. The girl was crying in pain. She was begging the soldiers to stop.

The soldiers saw me. They asked me to join them. I cried: "What a shame, leave the girl". The girl looked at me, stand up with her last energy, hugged me and said in Turkish: "Please, please help me". I swore at soldiers and said: "What a disgrace you are, we are in a war". One of the soldiers took his bayonet, walked over me and said: "Fcuk off, fcuk you and your virgin Mary".

Anusiya
11-30-2012, 10:11 PM
Stay on topic please, offtopic posts will be deleted!

Serhildan, if you wanna talk about Cyprus, then open a new thread about that. Do not spoil this one.

Let me rephrase it then to make myself clearer:

Your figures are intentionally manipulated.

There is no reason to discuss any further.

Geminus
11-30-2012, 10:20 PM
Where are your sources for these numbers? In all what I could find Turkish as well as Greek casualties didn't exceed 100.000 in any way.
Whereas the expulsion of all Greeks after the war is something very regretful, Greeks clearly were the aggressor in this war.
But both sides commited atrocities in this war, to blame just one side for it's cruelty can't be justified.

kabeiros
11-30-2012, 10:22 PM
''WHEREAS the denial of genocide is widely recognized as the final stage of genocide, enshrining impunity for the perpetrators of genocide, and demonstrably paving the way for future genocides;
WHEREAS the Ottoman genocide against minority populations during and following the First World War is usually depicted as a genocide against Armenians alone, with little recognition of the qualitatively similar genocides against other Christian minorities of the Ottoman Empire;
BE IT RESOLVED that it is the conviction of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that the Ottoman campaign against Christian minorities of the Empire between 1914 and 1923 constituted a genocide against Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontian and Anatolian Greeks.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Association calls upon the government of Turkey to acknowledge the genocides against these populations, to issue a formal apology, and to take prompt and meaningful steps toward restitution.''

The International Association of Genocide Scholars adopted this resolution on 16 December 2007, formally recognizing the campaign of the Ottoman Empire and the Young Turks against the Greeks and Assyrians as genocide.


Don't delete this post Onur because it is very much relevant to the discussion. The so called ''invasion'' of Greece into Turkey was the desperate attempt of Greece to save the Greeks of the Ottoman empire from the blood thirsty YoungTurks. Great Britain took advantage of this fact, they didn't force Greece to invade.
You guys have deified Kemal and it's obvious that this is the main reason behind your absolute refusal of the genocide of Christians in the early years of the 20th century. Kemal might have been a great leader for Turkey but he was guilty for this atrocities, he wanted to de-Christianize the whole Anatolian region-and he succeeded.
Thank God that the Greek army ''invaded'' in Anatolia, because if they hadn't, you would have managed to totally extinguish Anatolian Greeks...

Partizan
11-30-2012, 10:24 PM
Where are your sources for these numbers? In all what I could find Turkish as well as Greek casualties didn't exceed 100.000 in any way.
Whereas the expulsion of all Greeks after the war is something very regretful, Greeks clearly were the aggressor in this war.
But both sides commited atrocities in this war, to blame just one side for it's cruelty can't be justified.

Bold part sheds light on the issue on underlined part.

They tried to reach their wet dream about Byzantinum, with British and French guns. However, imperialism and philohellenism got lied to the rest in the Anatolian peninsula, thanks to biggest anti-imperialist leader of 20.th century, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

kabeiros
11-30-2012, 10:31 PM
They tried to reach their wet dream about Byzantinum, No this would have been a side effect, the only reason for the so called ''invasion'' was to defend the Christian women and babies from the murderous Turks and Kurds


thanks to biggest anti-imperialist leader of 20.th century, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. see, I told you, deification of Kemal

Geminus
11-30-2012, 10:31 PM
Bold part sheds light on the issue on underlined part.

They tried to reach their wet dream about Byzantinum, with British and French guns. However, imperialism and philohellenism got lied to the rest in the Anatolian peninsula, thanks to biggest anti-imperialist leader of 20.th century, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

Yet we must not forget these events also happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

So the Turkish "anti-imperialists" did some pretty nasty things too...

Partizan
11-30-2012, 10:31 PM
''WHEREAS the denial of genocide is widely recognized as the final stage of genocide, enshrining impunity for the perpetrators of genocide, and demonstrably paving the way for future genocides;
WHEREAS the Ottoman genocide against minority populations during and following the First World War is usually depicted as a genocide against Armenians alone, with little recognition of the qualitatively similar genocides against other Christian minorities of the Ottoman Empire;
BE IT RESOLVED that it is the conviction of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that the Ottoman campaign against Christian minorities of the Empire between 1914 and 1923 constituted a genocide against Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontian and Anatolian Greeks.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Association calls upon the government of Turkey to acknowledge the genocides against these populations, to issue a formal apology, and to take prompt and meaningful steps toward restitution.''

The International Association of Genocide Scholars adopted this resolution on 16 December 2007, formally recognizing the campaign of the Ottoman Empire and the Young Turks against the Greeks and Assyrians as genocide.


Don't delete this post Onur because it is very much relevant to the discussion. The so called ''invasion'' of Greece into Turkey was the desperate attempt of Greece to save the Greeks of the Ottoman empire from the blood thirsty YoungTurks. Great Britain took advantage of this fact, they didn't force Greece to invade.
You guys have deified Kemal and it's obvious that this is the main reason behind your absolute refusal of the genocide of Christians in the early years of the 20th century. Kemal might have been a great leader for Turkey but he was guilty for this atrocities, he wanted to de-Christianize the whole Anatolian region-and he succeeded.
Thank God that the Greek army ''invaded'' in Anatolia, because if they hadn't, you would have managed to totally extinguish Anatolian Greeks...

Just re-posting something:



Another photo, the guns captured from Pontian Greek gangs:
http://turksolu.org/217/foto/katliam-4.jpg

It is well known, after treaty of Mudros, Pontian gangs started to slaughter Turkish civilians. According to telegram which was sent to 9.th Army corp to Ottoman Department of Chief of Staff, a Greek colonel called "Istalyanos" came with 5 officers to Trabzon to train Pontian gangs there. Also Admiral Bristol writes in his report that, Venizelos even appointed one Greek colonel called Katheniotis for organising Pontian gangs. Bristol also wrote about Greek-Armenian collaboration in Kars, against Turks. I wish this article was fully in English, it has nice sources(like Stephanos Yerasimos, Justin McCarthy, Admiral Mark Bristol, Edward Hallet Carr, Bilal Şimşir and British Military Archives).

http://www.ardahan.edu.tr/karadeniz/web/upload/icerik/12/12.1..pdf

Also you still show that your history knowledge is exactly poor, Mustafa Kemal left Young Turks(İttihat ve Terakki/Committee of Union and Progress) in 1909, even before the start of so-called Pontian Genocide.

kabeiros
11-30-2012, 10:36 PM
Of course Pontians rebelled against their genocide, what should they do? Let the Turks massacre them all?

Partizan
11-30-2012, 10:43 PM
No this would have been a side effect, the only reason for the so called ''invasion'' was to defend the Christian women and babies from the murderous Turks and Kurds

Sure, sure:

http://wiki.phantis.com/images/thumb/a/a1/MegaliHellas.jpg/450px-MegaliHellas.jpg


see, I told you, deification of Kemal

I explained about Atatürk's influence Middle Eastern and South Asian anti-imperialist rebels for hundreds of time in this forum. I even posted about Hugo Chavez is mostly associated with Atatürk by Latin American experts and Fidel Castro even built one Atatürk statue in La Habana. So, it is not Deification but just a fact.


Yet we must not forget these events also happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

So the Turkish "anti-imperialists" did some pretty nasty things too...

Ehm...

Just some clues about Armenian falsifications of history:

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/forgeries-fotos.htm#3

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/armenian-slayers.htm

It seems it is Armenians who started a systemically massacre(which I would call as a REAL genocide), isn't it :rolleyes:

About the so-called Greek genocide, I responded above.

Partizan
11-30-2012, 10:44 PM
Of course Pontians rebelled against their genocide, what should they do? Let the Turks massacre them all?

Nope, for example those captured guns photo dates earlier than 1914.

Onur
11-30-2012, 10:46 PM
Where are your sources for these numbers? In all what I could find Turkish as well as Greek casualties didn't exceed 100.000 in any way.
The number of casualties are coming from the analysis of American historian prof. Justin McCarthy. He is specialized on late Ottoman empire history. I already posted an article of him here;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44779


Whereas the expulsion of all Greeks after the war is something very regretful, Greeks clearly were the aggressor in this war.

But both sides commited atrocities in this war, to blame just one side for it's cruelty can't be justified.
Turkey didn't expel anyone.

As it says in the BBC documentary, Greek civilians ran away together with the leaving Greek soldiers because they feared of Turkish reprisal after all the devastation caused by the invaders from Greece mainland.

Also, not all the Greek civilians ran away either. About 1,2 million of them remained in Turkey and lived in peace even after these horrible events. 1,1 million of them has gone to Greece after the population exchange in 1923.



Thank God that the Greek army ''invaded'' in Anatolia, because if they hadn't, you would have managed to totally extinguish Anatolian Greeks...
The so-called Anatolian Greeks lived together with us in peace for like ~800 years. The old Greek lady also tells the same story in the beginning of the video.

Turkey had no such policy as "extinguish Anatolian Greeks" because if we would had such an idea, then we would already do it while we were in anger of devastated Turkey and the ~550.000 dead Turkish civilians in the hands of Greek soldiers.

We did a population exchange in 1923 and you took 1,1 million of them. If we would have a genocidal policy then you wouldn't find anyone to do population exchange.

Graus
11-30-2012, 11:02 PM
People no reason to argue. You are calling each other genocidal assholes and congratulations: you are both right. Welcome to the club. And now get over it.
You really are one cut of the same cloth, Greeks and Turks would rather drop dead than admitting any kind of guilt whatsoever.

kabeiros
11-30-2012, 11:07 PM
Anatolian Greeks lived together with us in peace for like ~800 years. The old Greek lady also tells the same story in the beginning of the video. Armenians and Assyrians lived together with you in peace for like 800 years, too. But this didn't stop you from murdering them... I'll repeat so that you will understand (unlikely but hope dies last):
The Young Turks -not the Ottomans- wanted to completely Turkify and de-Christianize Anatolia, that's why the genocide happened. The Ottomans wanted to have the Christians as their slaves, not to exterminate them.


Turkey had no such policy as "extinguish Anatolian Greeks" because if we would had such an idea, then we would already do it while we were in anger of devastated Turkey and the ~550.000 dead Turkish civilians in the hands of Greek soldiers. Are you stupid Onur? Turks didn't manage to exterminate all of them but they killed MILLIONS of them. Pontians fought back and a lot of people were saved because of this


We did a population exchange in 1923 and you took 1,1 million of them. If we would have a genocidal policy then you wouldn't find anyone to do population exchange. Here we go again. I didn't say that you succeeded in your genocidal plans

kabeiros
11-30-2012, 11:33 PM
People no reason to argue. You are calling each other genocidal assholes and congratulations: you are both right. Welcome to the club. And now get over it.
You really are one cut of the same cloth, Greeks and Turks would rather drop dead than admitting any kind of guilt whatsoever. Don't talk about things that you don't know anything about. Greeks never committed genocide against the Turks

Anusiya
12-01-2012, 01:48 AM
Smyrni before:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/pics/smyrna-quay.JPG

http://www.avgi.gr/images/photoarchive/2012/1/23/smirni_high.jpg?w=458

http://www.greecetravel.com/matt-blog/photos/smyrna.jpg

Ionian university:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Ionian_University_of_Smyrna.jpg

Smyrni after:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Izmir,_after_the_fire_in_1922.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Sie9gTi6bFM/TkLBFn-KKkI/AAAAAAAAAGE/ozYpRvNvMNY/s1600/paralia.jpg

And you have a nerve to equate your ways with ours...

Queen B
12-01-2012, 12:06 PM
What are we trying here? To justify the Turkish atrocities? They started killing Pontians since 1914, much before the ''invansion''.
They wanted to exterminate Greeks , from there, till now.
Whoever stayed after 1922, they did everything possible to get rid of them.

agality
12-01-2012, 02:58 PM
Smyrni before:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/pics/smyrna-quay.JPG

http://www.avgi.gr/images/photoarchive/2012/1/23/smirni_high.jpg?w=458

http://www.greecetravel.com/matt-blog/photos/smyrna.jpg

Ionian university:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Ionian_University_of_Smyrna.jpg

Smyrni after:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Izmir,_after_the_fire_in_1922.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Sie9gTi6bFM/TkLBFn-KKkI/AAAAAAAAAGE/ozYpRvNvMNY/s1600/paralia.jpg

And you have a nerve to equate your ways with ours...

Hi, my family is from Thessaloniki and i was born in Izmir. That 'Smyrni after' photo shows the houses burned by Greeks while they're leaving the city and escaping from Turkish troops. I think you're right on equating the ways thing. But in my opinion, it's just to preserve historic value of Izmir.

Turkophagos
12-01-2012, 03:03 PM
Hi, my family is from Thessaloniki and i was born in Izmir. That 'Smyrni after' photo shows the houses burned by Greeks while they're leaving the city and escaping from Turkish troops. I think you're right on equating the ways thing. But in my opinion, it's just to preserve historic value of Izmir.

Do they really teach you that Greeks set Smyrna on fire?


wtf

Anusiya
12-01-2012, 03:05 PM
What are we trying here?

I am not trying anything. I am simply reminding them of their accomplishments.

agality
12-01-2012, 03:14 PM
Do they really teach you that Greeks set Smyrna on fire?


wtf

Yes, it's also mentioned in internationally accepted history books. By the way, i've just noticed that, i have a photo of my grand grandfather and he was very similar to the man on your profile pic.

Turkophagos
12-01-2012, 03:21 PM
Yes, it's also mentioned in internationally accepted history books. By the way, i've just noticed that, i have a photo of my grand grandfather and he was very similar to the man on your profile pic.

The great fire started in the Armenian quarter and it was set by the turkish horsemen (Tsetes).


The man in my avatar is Nikitaras a.k.a. Turkophagos, you'd find his the story behind his nickname very interesting.

agality
12-01-2012, 05:56 PM
The great fire started in the Armenian quarter and it was set by the turkish horsemen (Tsetes).


The man in my avatar is Nikitaras a.k.a. Turkophagos, you'd find his the story behind his nickname very interesting.

Different sources claims different things so i can't say no to what you're saying.

I read the story of Nikitaras and found his story quite interesting. I think he is an idol of nationalist Greeks. Also i didn't know that Turkophagos means 'Turk-eater', that explains why you're always posting anti-Turkish posts on Turkish sub-forum.

ficuscarica
12-01-2012, 05:58 PM
Too bad the Reconquista of the stolen Greek lands failed. What the Greeks did was good and righteous.

Partizan
12-01-2012, 06:01 PM
The great fire started in the Armenian quarter and it was set by the turkish horsemen (Tsetes).

Sorry, you have a historian in front of you.

According to Swedish orientalist Kolmodin, who was at the city in that day, Greeks burnt there:

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=miMiD7-h00YC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=johannes+kolmodin+fire+of+smyrna&source=bl&ots=9fsIrqSUiP&sig=cK7jYIkEzlJi7fWIzSXUVQQoHzg&hl=tr&sa=X&ei=_FG6UPDqC4nAtAa7ooD4Bg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=johannes%20kolmodin%20fire%20of%20smyrna&f=false

Other proofs about Greek and/or Armenian vandalism:


The Turks did not massacre Greeks, as Greeks had done to Turks in May 1919. About the worst the Turkish Army did was force captured Greek soldiers to shout “Long live Mustafa Kemal” (in return to their forcing Turks to shout Zito Vrenizelos when they entered Smyrna) as they marched intro detention. Turkish soldiers protected International College during the disruption of the occupation; a Turkish cavalryman rescued MacLahlan from irregulars who nearly beat the missionary to death while trying to loot the agricultural buildings of the college. A three-day Smyrna fire (September 13-15), which Turks made every effort to control, destroyed nearly a square mile in Greek and Armenian areas and made two hundred thousand people homeless. Included in this loss was the American Board’s Collegiate Institute for Girls. MacLachlan’s investigation of the fire’s origin led to the conviction that Armenian terrorists, dressed in Turkish uniforms, fired the city. Apparently the terrorists were attempting to bring Western intervention. Informing Washington of a three million Dollars claim by the American Board against the Ankara government, Barton requested through an aide that the U.S. participate in any conference planned by the Allies to rewrite the Treaty of Sevres. As the West talked of negotiating with the Kemalists, part of the American public began to realize that Armenianism and godliness were not identical. Ever since missionaries in the nineteenth century had become the dominant U.S. concern in the Ottoman Empire, opinion in America increasingly favored Christian minorities.

From Protestant Diplomacy and the Near East, 1971, p. 263..Alexander MacLachlan was the missionary president of International College in "Smyrna."

Grescovich report:


The report of Paul Grescovich, Chief of the "Smyrna" Fire Department (1910-1922), is part of the collection of the Bristol Papers, within the Library of Congress. I am hoping to get a hold of it, to present in this section. This is the one that Housepian ignored (for all intents and purposes) in her book. (ADDENDUM, 10-07: I was likely mistaken for thinking there was such a report; what is in the Bristol collection, relating to Grescovich, must have been Prentiss' report. An article based on this report has been uncovered, and may now be accessed; see links at bottom.)

Until that time, let's review highlights from Mark Prentiss' private report that he sent to Admiral Bristol on January 11, 1923. I don't believe this was published anywhere, and especially if so, it can't be construed as propaganda. This report can be read in its entirety on TAT's first "Izmir" page.

Grescovich impressed Prentiss as a "thoroughly reliable witness." (Makes sense; why would the chief have purposely lied for the Turks? He left the job in the weeks that followed, in case anyone feels he would have broken the Ninth Commandment for the sake of maintaining his position.) Communication was clear, without the need for translators, since the Austrian spoke fluent English.

Prentiss arrived on Sept. 8, as the Greek Army was leaving. Prentiss met with Grescovich on at least the 10th and the 13th (Wednesday), when the fires had started.

"During the first week of September there had been an average of five fires per day with which his crippled department had to cope." Grescovich believed that while most were caused by carelessness, some were deliberately started.

"The average number of fires in a normal year, he said, would be one in ten days, and the increase to five a day seemed significant."

(As the approach of the Turkish Army became imminent, in the week before the Turks arrived, the fact that fires radically increased serves as a tremendous clue.)

"Sunday night, Monday and Monday night, and Tuesday, so many fires were reported at such widely separated points that the fire department was absolutely unable to deal with them." (Compounded by the Turkish military governor's [Kiazim Pasha] ordering the arrest of the Greeks in the fire department, reducing the force to only 37. These days would correspond to Sept. 10, 11 and 12, respectively. Remember, the fire "started" on Sept. 13.)

Because the fire department was unable to cope, these pre-Sept. 13 fires "were extinguished by Turkish soldiers."

On the morning of Sept. 13, Paul Grescovich personally found evidence: he "had seen two Armenian priests escorting several thousand men, women, children from the Armenian schools and Dominican churches where they had taken refuge down to the quays."

"When he presently went into these institutions he found petroleum-soaked refuse ready for the torch."

The chief was undoubtedly certain, according to Prentiss, that "his own firemen, as well as Turkish guards, had shot down many Armenian young men disguised either as women or as Turkish irregular soldiers, who were caught setting fires Tuesday night and Wednesday morning." (Sept. 12 and Sept. 13.)

On the first day of the fire, Sept. 13, "At 11:20 Wednesday morning , at least half a dozen fires were reported almost simultaneously around the freight terminal warehouses and the passenger station of the Aidine Railroad."

"It is noteworthy that these fires broke out in buildings which it was greatly to the advantage of Turks to preserve, and to the advantage of enemies to destroy."

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/izmir-fire.htm#stop


The man in my avatar is Nikitaras a.k.a. Turkophagos, you'd find his the story behind his nickname very interesting.

You can proud with a bunch of Albanians/Arvanites who rebelled against Ottomans, however it doesn't change the truth you guys weren't enough capable to choose your own king. That's why Krauts appointed a prince for you :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece

A great shame... That's what I would call as an artificial and fake state.

Queen B
12-01-2012, 06:01 PM
Hi, my family is from Thessaloniki and i was born in Izmir. That 'Smyrni after' photo shows the houses burned by Greeks while they're leaving the city and escaping from Turkish troops. I think you're right on equating the ways thing. But in my opinion, it's just to preserve historic value of Izmir.
Yes, because it makes absolutely sense to have the people burning their own fortune/houses :picard1:

I am not trying anything. I am simply reminding them of their accomplishments.
I am not talking about you, but about what Turks say.

Partizan
12-01-2012, 06:04 PM
Yes, because it makes absolutely sense to have the people burning their own fortune/houses :picard1:.

For not leaving them to Turks perhaps? :rolleyes: Since I am 1/4 Balkan War refugee from Serrez and Selanik, I know Greeks are good at seizing others' properties. Since they are quite experienced about it, they did not want the same to happen upon themselves :p

agality
12-01-2012, 06:06 PM
Yes, because it makes absolutely sense to have the people burning their own fortune/houses :picard1:


If your land is captured by enemy troops, and you're leaving the city, it's quite logical to burn your house.

Queen B
12-01-2012, 06:18 PM
Different sources claims different things so i can't say no to what you're saying.

I read the story of Nikitaras and found his story quite interesting. I think he is an idol of nationalist Greeks. Also i didn't know that Turkophagos means 'Turk-eater', that explains why you're always posting anti-Turkish posts on Turkish sub-forum.

You know nothing about Turkophagos, obviously.
Just to let you know, he is an old member here, and he rarely to zero posted about Turks, until the Turkish entry where we had non-stop posting about Greece :bored:

For not leaving them to Turks perhaps? :rolleyes: Since I am 1/4 Balkan War refugee from Serrez and Selanik, I know Greeks are good at seizing others' properties. Since they are quite experienced about it, they did not want the same to happen upon themselves :p
First of all, most Turks in Greece were not really rich , f.e, just like Jews were. They were some that have properties, sure, and they can easily claim them, there are many cases that this happened already. Because there was a treaty between, and no exile, both Greeks and Turks have their right to claim their properties. If you don't know it already.
Unlike you, we have to go to Hague to claim our properties that have either be given to Turks. Of course we won ;)

agality
12-01-2012, 06:23 PM
You know nothing about Turkophagos, obviously.
Just to let you know, he is an old member here, and he rarely to zero posted about Turks, until the Turkish entry where we had non-stop posting about Greece :bored:

I've witnessed many of his threads deleted by Turkish sub-form moderators and these threads were all anti-Turkish (child rapes, anti-islam, genocide etc.). And please stop acting like a child just because you're an ultra-nationalist Greek and i'm a Turk.

Queen B
12-01-2012, 06:32 PM
I've witnessed many of his threads deleted by Turkish sub-form moderators and these threads were all anti-Turkish (child rapes, anti-islam, genocide etc.).
They are deleted because of ''sensitive'' Turks.Look how many stupid threads made by Turks we have, both in Greek and Turkish section. Too many. Way too many.
But my point was another. If you browse to Turkophagos history you ll see that before the Turkish entry in the forum, he would never bother.
But if we have non-stop posting and trashing towards Greeks, what do you expect? Zero response?


And please stop acting like a child just because you're an ultra-nationalist Greek and i'm a Turk.
Acting like a child? Where did you see that? Maybe you are a child and jump into conclusion. :picard1:

agality
12-01-2012, 06:42 PM
They are deleted because of ''sensitive'' Turks.Look how many stupid threads made by Turks we have, both in Greek and Turkish section. Too many. Way too many.
But my point was another. If you browse to Turkophagos history you ll see that before the Turkish entry in the forum, he would never bother.
But if we have non-stop posting and trashing towards Greeks, what do you expect? Zero response?

Acting like a child? Where did you see that? Maybe you are a child and jump into conclusion. :picard1:

Turks posts stupid threads, Turks don't know about anything happened in history right, Turks genocide people, Turks rape childs etc. etc. . Greeks are always right and this bothers me a lot. That's why i'm saying you're a child. Also you jumped in our conversation with Turkophagos and i don't have so much time to talk with childs like you.

One more thing, i don't appreciate some claims on Greeks made by Turkish users on this forum.

Partizan
12-01-2012, 06:43 PM
You know nothing about Turkophagos, obviously.
Just to let you know, he is an old member here, and he rarely to zero posted about Turks, until the Turkish entry where we had non-stop posting about Greece :bored:

By harassing Turkish female members, always posting near the knuckle things about Turks and so? You can see me, Onur and other Turkish members using historical sources with appropriate language. Have you ever been harassed by Turkish male members via profile comments or reps? I can show you many examples of that which the mentally sick Maniot does. Please don't try to justify him. If there would be such a Turkish member, I would warn him/her for the dignity of Turkish community here.


First of all, most Turks in Greece were not really rich , f.e, just like Jews were. They were some that have properties, sure, and they can easily claim them, there are many cases that this happened already. Because there was a treaty between, and no exile, both Greeks and Turks have their right to claim their properties. If you don't know it already.
Unlike you, we have to go to Hague to claim our properties that have either be given to Turks. Of course we won ;)

As far as I know, after Balkan War I, Greeks burned most of Ottoman archives remained in Greece, mainly land titles. So, our evidences to prove our rights had been wiped out by your country, sorry. However we didn't touch land titles, neither the genealogical documents in Greek Orthodox Church. That's why Greeks are rather luckier than Turks when it comes to this issue.

Pecheneg
12-01-2012, 06:51 PM
You know nothing about Turkophagos, obviously.
Just to let you know, he is an old member here
Actually many people know who maniot/criterioh is (since anthroforum).
http://i50.tinypic.com/n777q.jpg
















:laugh:

kabeiros
12-01-2012, 06:59 PM
However we didn't touch land titles, neither the genealogical documents in Greek Orthodox Church. That's why Greeks are rather luckier than Turks when it comes to this issue. So, can I claim the properties of my ancestors in Kerasounta and Nikomedia?

Queen B
12-01-2012, 07:03 PM
Turks posts stupid threads, Turks don't know about anything happened in history right, Turks genocide people, Turks rape childs etc. etc. . Greeks are always right and this bothers me a lot.
Instead of just read what I write. CHECK THEM.
Go to Greek section and see the posts made by Turks and what they are about.
-
So who is a child? Someone that acusses someone, without knowning why and the whole story? Or me?
Btw, I never bothered about the rapes or anything. Of course I will comment on the historical things, especially when its full of shit about my country and my people.


That's why i'm saying you're a child. Also you jumped in our conversation with Turkophagos and i don't have so much time to talk with childs like you.

I didn't jump to a conversation. I jumped to an accusation made.
I made my claims relevant to the thread, without answering to you.


One more thing, i don't appreciate some claims on Greeks made by Turkish users on this forum.
That's good for you, but unrelated to what we are talking about.

Partizan
12-01-2012, 07:04 PM
So, can I claim the properties of my ancestors in Kerasounta and Nikomedia?

If you have land titles and if your ancestors fit the criteria which dandelion wrote, you can go to any international court for claiming them. Unlike Greece destroyed proofs about Turkish land titles, we did not.

agality
12-01-2012, 07:06 PM
Instead of just read what I write. CHECK THEM.
Go to Greek section and see the posts made by Turks and what they are about.
-
So who is a child? Someone that acusses someone, without knowning why and the whole story? Or me?
Btw, I never bothered about the rapes or anything. Of course I will comment on the historical things, especially when its full of shit about my country and my people.

I didn't jump to a conversation. I jumped to an accusation made.
I made my claims relevant to the thread, without answering to you.

That's good for you, but unrelated to what we are talking about.

This conversation goes to nowhere and it's off-topic. I will not reply your posts on this thread anymore. I'm sure you Greeks are as innocent and pure as an angel.

Queen B
12-01-2012, 07:10 PM
By harassing Turkish female members, always posting near the knuckle things about Turks and so?
You don't get what I am talking about.
I m not talking about the way turkophagos is reacting, I am talking about WHY this started.
For the way he is reacting, the mod community have already acted from time to time by banning him, and you all have the right to report anything out of limits.
My answer was to agality that claimed that ''why you're always posting anti-Turkish posts on Turkish sub-forum.'' I just simply stated that he didn't give a shit about Turks before the non-stop posting from Turks about anything related to Greece and Greeks.


You can see me, Onur and other Turkish members using historical sources with appropriate language. Have you ever been harassed by Turkish male members via profile comments or reps? I can show you many examples of that which the mentally sick Maniot does. Please don't try to justify him. If there would be such a Turkish member, I would warn him/her for the dignity of Turkish community here.
See above answer, again.



As far as I know, after Balkan War I, Greeks burned most of Ottoman archives remained in Greece, mainly land titles. So, our evidences to prove our rights had been wiped out by your country, sorry.
Really? Then why there are Turks claiming their properties here?
And we if you have the titles and we have the titles we have to go to Hague court?
So lucky, indeed :picard2:

Incal
12-01-2012, 07:12 PM
I know Greeks are good at seizing others' properties.

That, coming from a Turk, it's hilarious and pathetic at the same time, specially if we consider that at least half of you country's territory was stolen from others.

Partizan
12-01-2012, 07:17 PM
Instead of just read what I write. CHECK THEM.
Go to Greek section and see the posts made by Turks and what they are about.

Here, your compatriot accuses Muslims to be zoophiles and necrophiles, based on false hadiths and with not even real verse from Quran:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57764

Some lowbrow, insulting posts against Turks by your compatriot:


Turks = Sandniggers


http://www.kaosgldergi.com/resim/kapak/kaosgld24.jpg



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAOS_GL


Generally when we discuss, we use solid arguments without insulting. However your compatriot trolls Turks with sexual and inappropriate ways, which are far away from an intellectual discussion. Really, he just lowers the quality of Greeks in the forum. If I were a Greek member, I wouldn't let him screw dignity of Greek community.

ficuscarica
12-01-2012, 07:21 PM
That, coming from a Turk, it's hilarious and pathetic at the same time, specially if we consider that at least half of you country's territory was stolen from others.
Half? All was stolen! The Turk is Europe´s and Minor Asia´s nightmare from the steppe of central Asia.

kabeiros
12-01-2012, 07:27 PM
Generally when we discuss, we use solid arguments without insulting. No solid evidence, most of your sources come from Turkish nationalists or proffessors like Lowry and McCarthy, who are members of the Institute of Turkish Studies and have in turn been strongly criticized by other scholars for their denial of the Armenian, Syrian and Greek genocides.

Queen B
12-01-2012, 07:31 PM
Generally when we discuss, we use solid arguments without insulting. However your compatriot trolls Turks with sexual and inappropriate ways, which are far away from an intellectual discussion.
We are talking about different things.
AGAIN
I am not talking about WHAT he posts. If this is of limit, you can report and mods will take care of it, as have happened already. I am talking about WHY.
End of story.


Really, he just lowers the quality of Greeks in the forum. If I were a Greek member, I wouldn't let him screw dignity of Greek community.
I am not anyone's mother. Nor I am reponsible for anyone or his guardian.
I am only responsible for myself.:)

Partizan
12-01-2012, 07:36 PM
You don't get what I am talking about.
I m not talking about the way turkophagos is reacting, I am talking about WHY this started.
For the way he is reacting, the mod community have already acted from time to time by banning him, and you all have the right to report anything out of limits.
My answer was to agality that claimed that ''why you're always posting anti-Turkish posts on Turkish sub-forum.'' I just simply stated that he didn't give a shit about Turks before the non-stop posting from Turks about anything related to Greece and Greeks.

See above answer, again.

He could use the same, calm and appropriate rhetoric with Turks. I think I hardly used insults and near the knuckle arguments more than ten times, unlike what your compatriot does. Most of Turkish users come with evidences, not with cheap insults. BTW unlike you say, moderators avoid banning him, except for short term ones like three day(and it was once). With those lowbrow and childish insults, he should have been banned permanently IMHO. I would say the same if a Turk would use the same way with him.



Really? Then why there are Turks claiming their properties here?
And we if you have the titles and we have the titles we have to go to Hague court?
So lucky, indeed :picard2:

Most of those Turks who claim properties are the known families or nobility part of Turks, in my opinion. A moderate land owner's grandson like me has no chance.


That, coming from a Turk, it's hilarious and pathetic at the same time, specially if we consider that at least half of you country's territory was stolen from others.

:bored:

We are more native to Anatolia than a bunch of Arvanite/Albanian+Vlach+Slav+Christian Turk(Karamanlide) renegades whom's state had a German guy as a first king. A German-Spanish with African blood who invades Mayan homeland has no right to bitch about Turks.


Half? All was stolen! The Turk is Europe´s and Minor Asia´s nightmare from the steppe of central Asia.

Those are my ancestors(since I am an Ahıska/Meskhetian Turk, which people traditionally dwell in Southern Georgia and North-East Turkey and who are associated with Kipchaks):


In "Mok'c'evay K'art'lisay" and The Life of the Kings, we have the description of the invasion of Georgia by Alexander the Great who saw there horrible barbarians, established on the Kura river (Mtkvari - in Georgian) and along its northern tributaries (flowing down from the mountains of the Great Caucasian Ridge), people who were called by Georgians "Bun-Turks and Kipchaks".[96] Alexander was astonished because no other people acted in such a disgusting way as they did. But they had strong towns and were fearless warriors. In Georgian annals the characterization of these barbarians is picturesquely expressed, though by the words of the chronicier: "the description of their way of life is inexpressible".[97]

It seems that the Bun-Turks, whose name is usually explained as original, fundamental, real Turks or as "Hun-Turks" and whom Alexander supposedly met in Central Transcaucasia, must have represented the population of northern provenance, broken through the south of the Caucasian mountains. This fact is in a certain degree confirmed by the information in The Life of the Kings, namely that Bun-Turks, surrounded by Alexander's forces in the stronghold of Sarkine, slipped through the hole in the rock and took shelter in the Caucasian mountains: "He (Alexander - G.K.) caused much hardship for the Sarkinelians, because he attacked them for eleven months. Secretly they began to hew out the rock and to drill through the cliff, which was soft and easily cut. The Sarkinelians escaped through the hole by night and fled to the Caucasus; they left the city empty. Alexander conquered all K'art'li" (I, 18).[98]

Arseni Beri, the Georgian author of the twelfth century, indicated the area where the Bun-Turks were resettled after Alexander having banished them from K'art'li, as a place situated outside of Ovseti (that means the country of Ossetians or "Alans").[99] By the words of Arseni Beri this place is a vaste country, rich in water, and where afterwards the great breed of Qipchaks lived. It is quite certain that Arseni Beri had the steppes of South Russia in mind.

http://kavtaradze.wetpaint.com/page/Georgian+Chronicles+and+the+raison+d'%C3%AAtre+of+ the+Iberian+Kingdom

So, my ancestors were in Southern Caucasus which also includes NE Turkey, even in Alexander the Great's time.

And those are ancestors of most of modern Greeks:



"The Usable Past" - 2003
By K.S Brown & Professor Yannis Hamilakis

Page 140:

"..As a result of a number of historical factors, much of the rural population in central Greece was Albanian-speaking by the time of the creation of modern Greek state in the 1830s"


"ALBANIA - The Rise of a Kingdom"
By J.Swire - 1971

Page 11:

"...In an article in the Greek monthly magazine, Parnassos - February 1916, it is stated that "the majority of our soldiers speak to one another in the Albanian language....a very deplorable
habit.....It is expedient that this habit be destroyed by all necessary and vigorous means". Prince Lichonowsky wrote: "the so-called Greek national dess itself is of Albanian origin".



VENIZELOS (Famous Greek Statesman - Prime Minister: 1910-1920, 1932)

By Herbert Adams Gibbons, Ph.D
[At The Peace Conferance]

Page 346:

"...Venizelos advanced the famous theory of national consciousness as the test of nationality..."One may be temped", he said, "to raise the objection that a substantial portion of the Greek population uses Albanian as its mother tongue, and is, consequently, in all probability, of Albanian origin"


The Empty Cradle of Democracy
Alexandra Halkias

Page 59:

"...Through the end of the revolution in 1830, Greeks, including most of the nineteenth-century nationalists, seemed to have had a vague but firm sense of continuity from ancient to modern Greece, though this was not articulated in racial terms but on the basis of a common language, history and consciousness. In effect at this time, whoever called themselves a Greek was a Greek. It is because of this that many Greek-speaking Albanians, Slavs, Rumanians and Vlachs were easily assimilated and indeed became important players in Greek patriotism at the time.”


POLITICS IN MODERN GREECE
By Professor Keith R. Legg

Page 86:
LANGUAGE

"..At the time of independence, the range in local dialects was significant; substantial portions of the population spoke Albanian"


New York Times - June 2009

Nikos Dimou

“.....We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us,‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”

And one of the best ones... Appointed Kraut boy for crown of Greece wishes to see Hellenes in Athens but he only hears Albanian!


When King Otto of Greece came in Greece in 1830, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?"

His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy".

Zaharias Papantoniou, "King Otto"

Who are more native to Anatolia so? :D

Partizan
12-01-2012, 07:37 PM
No solid evidence, most of your sources come from Turkish nationalists or proffessors like Lowry and McCarthy, who are members of the Institute of Turkish Studies and have in turn been strongly criticized by other scholars for their denial of the Armenian, Syrian and Greek genocides.

Nah, if you check, we use various sources.

Queen B
12-01-2012, 07:48 PM
Most of those Turks who claim properties are the known families or nobility part of Turks, in my opinion. A moderate land owner's grandson like me has no chance.

Really? So we didn't burn the archives for the nobility and we burned the archives for the moderate land owners?
:confused:

Partizan
12-01-2012, 07:50 PM
Really? So we didn't burn the archives for the nobility and we burned the archives for the moderate land owners?
:confused:

Nope, the nobility ones also had enough proofs in center of Ottoman Empire, İstanbul. Most of them found evidences from Ottoman archives. However middle and low class Turks or villagers weren't "significant enough" for being mentioned in archives, except for local ones, which have been vandalized by Greece.

Queen B
12-01-2012, 07:57 PM
Nope, the nobility ones also had enough proofs in center of Ottoman Empire, İstanbul. Most of them found evidences from Ottoman archives. However middle and low class Turks or villagers weren't "significant enough" for being mentioned in archives, except for local ones, which have been vandalized by Greece.
Even though I don't believe the whole ''destruction'' of the archives (because I know Turks claiming-and-getting properties, and they weren't a nobility by any chance), a person OWNS a title himself , and with that title he can go to any court to claim his/her property.

That's what Greeks did. Get their titles and go to Hauge.

Partizan
12-01-2012, 08:03 PM
Even though I don't believe the whole ''destruction'' of the archives (because I know Turks claiming-and-getting properties, and they weren't a nobility by any chance), a person OWNS a title himself , and with that title he can go to any court to claim his/her property.

That's what Greeks did. Get their titles and go to Hauge.

Yeah, during the expulsion in 1913, Turks had time to save their titles :rolleyes: The First Balkan War's exile was a really catastrophic thing...

Those Turks who claims lands are as I said high class ones who were also documented in capitol of Ottoman Empire.

wvwvw
12-01-2012, 08:03 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Nygreeks.jpg
Article stating "Turks Slaughter Christian Greeks", on October 19th, 1917 published by the Lincoln Daily star

English: TURKS SLAUGHTER CHRISTIAN GREEKS
Not Satisfied With Torture of Armenians, Turks Extend Cruelty to Greeks. Thousands of Greeks Deported From the Coast to Interior of Asia Minor. NEW YORK, Oct. 19.—Not sated by the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Armenians and Syrians, the Turk has also turned against the Greek Christians in his dominions and more than 700,000 have fallen a victim to persecution in the form of death, suffering or deportation, it was declared here today by Frank W. Jackson, of this city, chairman of the relief committee for Greeks of Asia Minor. He said the real details of these new Turkish atrocities were just beginning to leak out. “The story of the Greek deportation is not yet generally known,” said Mr. Jackson. “Quietly and gradually the same treatment is being meted out to the Greeks as to the Armenians. Although closely guarded, certain echoes of these horrors come out from time to time."

Queen B
12-01-2012, 08:08 PM
Yeah, during the expulsion in 1913, Turks had time to save their titles :rolleyes: The First Balkan War's exile was a really catastrophic thing...

Surely they have more time to leave from a burning house, obviously :bored:

And yes, if you are going to change your life forever,even having 2 hours of time, you take the most valuable things with you.
Jewlery,money, titles and the basic clothes.

I wonder again why non-nobility have already claimed properties though.

wvwvw
12-01-2012, 08:12 PM
The Greek presence in Asia Minor has been dated to at least the time of Homer around 800 BCE. Prior to their conquest by the Turkic people the Greeks were one of several indigenous peoples living in Asia Minor. The geographer Strabo referred to Smyrna as the first Greek city in Asia Minor.

The modern name "İzmir" derives from the former Greek name Σμύρνη "Smyrna", through the first two syllables of the phrase "εις Σμύρνην" (pronounced "is Smirnin"), which means "to Smyrna" in Greek.

Greek influence and presence was so strong in the area that the Turks called it "Smyrna of the infidels" (Gavur İzmir, infidel city). During the late 19th and early 20th century, the city was an important financial and cultural center of the Greek world. Out of the 391 factories 322 belonged to local Greeks, while 3 out of the 9 banks were backed by Greek capital. Education was also dominated by the local Greek communities with 67 male and 4 female schools in total. The Ottomans continued to control the area, with the exception of the 1919–1922 period, when the city was assigned to Greece by the Treaty of Sèvres.
The most important Greek educational institution of the region was the Evangelical School that operated from 1733 to 1922.

Partizan
12-01-2012, 08:23 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Nygreeks.jpg
Article stating "Turks Slaughter Christian Greeks", on October 19th, 1917 published by the Lincoln Daily star

English: TURKS SLAUGHTER CHRISTIAN GREEKS
Not Satisfied With Torture of Armenians, Turks Extend Cruelty to Greeks. Thousands of Greeks Deported From the Coast to Interior of Asia Minor. NEW YORK, Oct. 19.—Not sated by the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Armenians and Syrians, the Turk has also turned against the Greek Christians in his dominions and more than 700,000 have fallen a victim to persecution in the form of death, suffering or deportation, it was declared here today by Frank W. Jackson, of this city, chairman of the relief committee for Greeks of Asia Minor. He said the real details of these new Turkish atrocities were just beginning to leak out. “The story of the Greek deportation is not yet generally known,” said Mr. Jackson. “Quietly and gradually the same treatment is being meted out to the Greeks as to the Armenians. Although closely guarded, certain echoes of these horrors come out from time to time."

This article, which is most probably a propaganda one since the US had been joined to Allied(Entente) Powers in 6 April 1917. Central Powers, therefore Ottoman Empire, was an enemy so of course propagandizing was important :thumb001:


Surely they have more time to leave from a burning house, obviously :bored:

And yes, if you are going to change your life forever,even having 2 hours of time, you take the most valuable things with you.
Jewlery,money, titles and the basic clothes.

I wonder again why non-nobility have already claimed properties though.

Check my post again:

Most of those Turks who claim properties are the known families or nobility part of Turks, in my opinion. A moderate land owner's grandson like me has no chance.

Of course if it is a known merchant's, a scholar's or a Pasha's grandchild what you talk about, it must also be documented in İstanbul.

Pecheneg
12-01-2012, 08:28 PM
The Greek presence in Asia Minor has been dated to at least the time of Homer around 800 BCE. Prior to their conquest by the Turkic people the Greeks were one of several indigenous peoples living in Asia Minor. The geographer Strabo referred to Smyrna as the first Greek city in Asia Minor.

The modern name "İzmir" derives from the former Greek name Σμύρνη "Smyrna", through the first two syllables of the phrase "εις Σμύρνην" (pronounced "is Smirnin"), which means "to Smyrna" in Greek.

Greek influence and presence was so strong in the area that the Turks called it "Smyrna of the infidels" (Gavur İzmir, infidel city). During the late 19th and early 20th century, the city was an important financial and cultural center of the Greek world. Out of the 391 factories 322 belonged to local Greeks, while 3 out of the 9 banks were backed by Greek capital. Education was also dominated by the local Greek communities with 67 male and 4 female schools in total. The Ottomans continued to control the area, with the exception of the 1919–1922 period, when the city was assigned to Greece by the Treaty of Sèvres.
The most important Greek educational institution of the region was the Evangelical School that operated from 1733 to 1922.

http://i47.tinypic.com/j8zjw8.jpg

Partizan
12-01-2012, 08:29 PM
The Greek presence in Asia Minor has been dated to at least the time of Homer around 800 BCE. Prior to their conquest by the Turkic people the Greeks were one of several indigenous peoples living in Asia Minor. The geographer Strabo referred to Smyrna as the first Greek city in Asia Minor.

The modern name "İzmir" derives from the former Greek name Σμύρνη "Smyrna", through the first two syllables of the phrase "εις Σμύρνην" (pronounced "is Smirnin"), which means "to Smyrna" in Greek.

Greek influence and presence was so strong in the area that the Turks called it "Smyrna of the infidels" (Gavur İzmir, infidel city). During the late 19th and early 20th century, the city was an important financial and cultural center of the Greek world. Out of the 391 factories 322 belonged to local Greeks, while 3 out of the 9 banks were backed by Greek capital. Education was also dominated by the local Greek communities with 67 male and 4 female schools in total. The Ottomans continued to control the area, with the exception of the 1919–1922 period, when the city was assigned to Greece by the Treaty of Sèvres.
The most important Greek educational institution of the region was the Evangelical School that operated from 1733 to 1922.

Sorry, according to official maps, Turks were majority in there in 1893 also:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Prorportions_des_populations_musulmanes_grecques_e t_armeniennes_en_AsieMineure_d%27apres_la_statisti que_du_livreJaune.png

ChildOfTheJin
12-01-2012, 08:43 PM
^^ Actually Partizan, that maps show the populations of Muslims, which includes Turks and other Islamic people.

Partizan
12-01-2012, 08:45 PM
^^ Actually Partizan, that maps show the populations of Muslims, which includes Turks and other Islamic people.

Well, Muslims in İzmir are Turks or the people who accept Turkish ID willingly(Bosnians, Albanians etc.)

So, still it destroys the Greek lie about "Greeks were majority in İzmir before 1922".

Anatolian Eagle
12-01-2012, 08:45 PM
The Greek presence in Asia Minor has been dated to at least the time of Homer around 800 BCE. Prior to their conquest by the Turkic people the Greeks were one of several indigenous peoples living in Asia Minor. The geographer Strabo referred to Smyrna as the first Greek city in Asia Minor.

The modern name "İzmir" derives from the former Greek name Σμύρνη "Smyrna", through the first two syllables of the phrase "εις Σμύρνην" (pronounced "is Smirnin"), which means "to Smyrna" in Greek.

Greek influence and presence was so strong in the area that the Turks called it "Smyrna of the infidels" (Gavur İzmir, infidel city). During the late 19th and early 20th century, the city was an important financial and cultural center of the Greek world. Out of the 391 factories 322 belonged to local Greeks, while 3 out of the 9 banks were backed by Greek capital. Education was also dominated by the local Greek communities with 67 male and 4 female schools in total. The Ottomans continued to control the area, with the exception of the 1919–1922 period, when the city was assigned to Greece by the Treaty of Sèvres.
The most important Greek educational institution of the region was the Evangelical School that operated from 1733 to 1922.

With all due respect, the "Smyrna of the infidels" expression is actually some stereotype coined by conservatives to Izmir because Izmir is known as most secular and Atatürkist city in Turkey. It's one city where population give some spank to Erdoğan, hence why Erdoğan once referred to the city as this. It doesn't really have anything to do with whole Turkish-Greek drama. Don't fabricate things.

Queen B
12-01-2012, 08:45 PM
This article, which is most probably a propaganda one since the US had been joined to Allied(Entente) Powers in 6 April 1917. Central Powers, therefore Ottoman Empire, was an enemy so of course propagandizing was important :thumb001:

Yeap-yeap, sure a propaganda!
And eye-witnesses from the time of the events also propaganda.
And the articles from everywhere in the world at the time of the events, also would be a propaganda.
And everything related to that period , from the Pontian genocide to the fire of Smyrne is also a propaganda UNLESS, its positive towards Turks.
Makes sense. :bored:


Of course if it is a known merchant's, a scholar's or a Pasha's grandchild what you talk about, it must also be documented in İstanbul.
He wasn't. He was an average Joe, like his family. The house isn't in the best place of Thessaloniki either.
He had the titles in his hands.
What part of this you don't understand. When you have a home, except the fact that is written in archives (which again I doubt of the destruction but anyway), the owner holds the title in his hand. Proving the ownership.
Just like I have a title/contract now in my house. Even if a fire will burn the archives, or someone stole the building that saves them, I still have the ownership title in my hands.

So, those I hear is bullshit. Those who have titles, can come and claim their houses, like they already DO. Easy as that .

Partizan
12-01-2012, 08:53 PM
With all due respect, the "Smyrna of the infidels" expression is actually some stereotype coined by conservatives to Izmir because Izmir is known as most secular and Atatürkist city in Turkey. It's one city where population give some spank to Erdoğan, hence why Erdoğan once referred to the city as this. It doesn't really have to do anything with whole Turkish-Greek drama. Don't fabricate things.

Mesele aslında daha farklı.

http://turksolu.org/316/gurzel316.htm


Abdülaziz'in çıkardığı 10 Haziran 1867 (Hicri 7 Safer 1284) günlü "7 Safer Kanunu" ile yabancılara emlak satışı da serbest bırakılınca, yüzyıllardan beri savaştan savaşa, diyardan diyara koşmaktan elinde avucunda birşey kalmayan Türk halkı, son kalan topraklarını da, işlemek için ağır şartlarda aldıkları kredileri ödeyemediklerinden, yabancı bankalara ya da tefecilere kaptırmışlardır.

Artık İzmir'in Karşıyaka'sında, birinci, ikinci hattâ üçüncü kordonunda bile küçük bir kulübe kadar bir Türk işletmesi bulunmamaktadır.

Burada konu ile ilgili olduğu için Cengiz Özakıncı'nın "Yeni Osmanlı Tuzağı" isimli eserinden ve Orhan Kurmuş'un belgelerinden Abdülaziz'in çıkardığı bu yasa ve yönetmeliklerden sonra yabancı uyruklulara nasıl bir toprak satışı patlaması olmuş bir bakalım. Yine de çok uzun olmaması için 1857-1892 yalnız İngiliz uyrukluların eline geçen arazi listesinin bir kısmına şöyle bir bakalım:

A.D. Clarke: Kuşadası'nda 12 000 dönüm,

G.B. Meredith: Aydın'da 12 000 dönüm,

J.H. Hutchinson: Tire'de 1 556 dönüm,

W.G. Maltass: 122 592 dönüm,

F. Whithall: Tire'de 18 868 dönüm,

G. Minardo: 8 800 dönüm,

R. Wilkin: 130 228 dönüm,

A.S. Perkins: Bornova'da 16 360 dönüm,

D. Baltazzi: 247 000 dönüm,

M.Wolff: 16 000 dönüm,

A. Edwart: Buca'da 80 000 dönüm,

H. Abbott: 75 972 dönüm

Smyrna Vineyears and Brandy Distil Şirketi: 25 200 dönüm,

E. Purser: Aziziye'de 2 000 dönüm,

Asia Minor Cotton Şirketi: Nazilli'de 36 800 dönüm,

J.B. Peterson: 97 800 dönüm,

A. Custor: 6 000 dönüm,

J. Rees: 30 000 dönüm,

J. Aldrich: Aydın'da 6 000 dönüm,

C. Gregoriades: Ayaslug'da 5 160 dönüm,

E. Lee: İzmir'de 30 040 dönüm,

S.J. Hadkinson: 2 040 dönüm,

Baltazzi: Bergama'da 82 000 dönüm toprak satın almış.

J.J. Werry ve J.T. Smith iki çiftlik, R. Wilkin üç çiftlik ve iki bağ, F. G. Wedova ve C.F. Tebitt iki çiftlik, J.H. Hutchinson Torbalı yakınlarında bir çiftlik sahibi olmuşlardır.

"Gavur İzmir"in anlamı

Görüldüğü gibi yalnız İngilizlerin İzmir ve civarında satın aldığı topraklar 3 milyon civarında olup diğer yabancılar ve azınlıkların eline geçen toplam arazi miktarı ise 6 milyon dönümü bulmaktadır. Üstelik bu topraklar en kıymetli ve verimli topraklardır.

Neticede hem İzmir'in içinde hem de çevresinde tüm kıymetli mülklerin ve arazilerin toptan yabancıların ve azınlıkların eline geçmesi sonucunda ilk defa halkın bir tepkisi olmuş ve bu tepki "Gavur İzmir" tabiri ile ifade edilmiştir. Bu tabirin ortaya çıktığı dönem düşünülürse, gerçekten de çok anlamlı ve önemli olduğu görülür. Bir kere bu söz, İzmir halkını küçük düşürmek için ortaya çıkmadığı gibi, bilhassa elindeki tüm kıymetleri yabancılara ve azınlıklara kaptırmanın acısıyla ve daha da önemlisi oynanan emperyalist oyunun farkına varılmasıyla İzmir ve civarındaki halkın dile getirdiği bir feryad olmuştur.

"Gavur İzmir" sözcüğü dünyada ilk defa emperyalizme karşı Türk halkının hiçbir etki olmaksızın yüreğinden gelen bir haykırış olduğu için hem çok önemlidir hem de çok anlamlıdır. Bu bize şunu da göstermektedir ki, emperyalizme karşı ilk kurtuluş savaşını yapan ve kazanan Türk milletinin bu başarısı bir tesadüf değildir.


Yeap-yeap, sure a propaganda!
And eye-witnesses from the time of the events also propaganda.
And the articles from everywhere in the world at the time of the events, also would be a propaganda.
And everything related to that period , from the Pontian genocide to the fire of Smyrne is also a propaganda UNLESS, its positive towards Turks.
Makes sense. :bored:

I showed tons of links which disprove those propagandas. You couldn't even answer the one about so-called Pontian Genocide.


He wasn't. He was an average Joe, like his family. The house isn't in the best place of Thessaloniki either.
He had the titles in his hands.
What part of this you don't understand. When you have a home, except the fact that is written in archives (which again I doubt of the destruction but anyway), the owner holds the title in his hand. Proving the ownership.
Just like I have a title/contract now in my house. Even if a fire will burn the archives, or someone stole the building that saves them, I still have the ownership title in my hands.

So, those I hear is bullshit. Those who have titles, can come and claim their houses, like they already DO. Easy as that .

I doubt it since I don't hear about Turks who has done that. Most Turks who want to search about their heritage and old properties generally use archives.

Anatolian Eagle
12-01-2012, 08:57 PM
Mesele aslında daha farklı.

http://turksolu.org/316/gurzel316.htm

Yine de belli ki tam anlamıyla Raine'nin söylediği gibi değil olay. En azından terimin anlamı bu yönde değil. Günümüzdeki kullanılışı (en azından genellikle) benim dediğim gibi zaten, bunu çoğu insan da böyle biliyor.

Partizan
12-01-2012, 08:58 PM
Yine de belli ki tam anlamıyla Raine'nin söylediği gibi değil olay. En azından terimin anlamı bu yönde değil. Günümüzdeki kullanılışı (en azından genellikle) benim dediğim gibi zaten, bunu çoğu insan da böyle biliyor.

Zaten mâlum Karamanlı Ortodoks Türk'ün söylediği ile hiç alakası yok :) Sadece bilgilendireyim istedim, şu anki kullanımı senin dediğin gibi ama bu deyimin ortaya çıkış sebebi daha farklı.

wvwvw
12-01-2012, 09:09 PM
Turkish official Rafet Bey was active in the Genocide of the Greeks and on November 1916 he stated “We must finish off the Greeks as we did with the Armenians…today I sent squads to the interior to kill every Greek on sight…”

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Smyrna-vict-elder-child-massacre-1922.jpg

Henry Morgenthau, the United States ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1913 to 1916 states:

"Evidently Turkish nationalistic policy is aimed at all Christians and not confined to Armenians."



British Prime Minister David Lloyd George (1863-1945):

"The Greeks of Asia Minor had also suffered heavily from the brutalities of the Turks during the Great War. Hundreds of thousands were massacred in cold blood during the War and many more driven from their homes to find refuge in Greece and the Greek islands."

Sir Horace Rumbold (1869-1941), British High Commissioner in Constantinople to Lord George Curzon, British Minister of Foreign Affairs:

"The Turks appear to be working on a deliberate plan to get rid of Minorities. Their method has been to collect at Amassia Ottoman Greeks from the region between Samsoun and Trebizond. These Greeks are marched from Amassia via Toket and Sivas as far as Ceasarea and then back again until they are eventually sent through Kharput to the East. In this manner a large number of deportees die on the road from hardship and exposure. The Turks can say that they did not actually kill these refugees, but a comparison may be instituted with the way in which the Turks formerly got rid of the dogs at Constantinople, by landing them on an island where they died of hunger and thirst."

In his memoirs Winston Churchill (1874-1965) wrote:

“... Mustapha Kemal's Army ... celebrated their triumph by the burning of Smyrna to ashes and by a vast massacre of its Christian population...”

General Mahmut Şevket Paşa (1856-1913), the Ottoman Commander-in-Chief, tells Orthodox Patriarch Ioakeim III (1834-1912), Greek Patriarch of Constantinople, in June 1909:

"We will cut off your heads, we will make you all disappear."

Hans Freiherr von Wangenheim (1859-1915), German Minister in Athens, 24 June 1909:

"The Turks have decided on a war of extermination against the Christians of the Empire."

Miss Ethel Thompson of Boston worked with the Near East Relief in Turkey and when she returned to America she described:

"the ghastly lines of gaunt, starving Greek women and children who staggered across Anatolia through the city of Harput, their glassy eyes fairly protruding from their heads, their bones merely covered with skin, skeleton babies tied to their backs, driven on without food supplies or clothing until they dropped dead—Turkish gendarmes hurrying them with their guns."

Henry Morgenthau (1856-1946) was United States ambassador to the Ottoman Empire wrote:
(Chapter XXIV; page 323-325)

The martyrdom of the Greeks, therefore, comprised two periods: that antedating the war, and that which began in the early part of 1915. The first affected chiefly the Greeks on the seacoast of Asia Minor. The second affected those living in Thrace and in the territories surrounding the Sea of Marmora, the Dardanelles, the Bosphorus, and the coast of the Black Sea. These latter, to the extent of several hundred thousand, were sent to the interior of Asia Minor. The Turks adopted almost identically the same procedure against the Greeks as that which they had adopted against the Armenians. They began by incorporating the Greeks into the Ottoman army and then transforming them into labour battalions, using them to build roads in the Caucasus and other scenes of action. These Greek soldiers, just like the Armenians, died by thousands from cold, hunger, and other privations. The same house-to-house searches for hidden weapons took place in the Greek villages, and Greek men and women were beaten and tortured just as were their fellow Armenians. The Greeks had to submit to the same forced requisitions, which amounted in their case, as in the case of the Armenians, merely to plundering on a wholesale scale. The Turks attempted to force the Greek subjects to become Mohammedans; Greek girls, just like Armenian girls, were stolen and taken to Turkish harems and Greek boys were kidnapped and placed in Moslem households. The Greeks, just like the Armenians, were accused of disloyalty to the Ottoman Government; the Turks accused them of furnishing supplies to the English submarines in the Marmora and also of acting as spies. The Turks also declared that the Greeks were not loyal to the Ottoman Government, and that they also looked forward to the day when the Greeks inside of Turkey would become part of Greece. These latter charges were unquestionably true; that the Greeks, after suffering for five centuries the most unspeakable outrages at the hands of the Turks, should look longingly to the day when their territory should be part of the fatherland, was to be expected. The Turks, as in the case of the Armenians, seized upon this as an excuse for a violent onslaught on the whole race. Everywhere the Greeks were gathered in groups and, under the so-called protection of Turkish gendarmes, they were transported, the larger part on foot, into the interior. Just how many were scattered in this fashion is not definitely known, the estimates varying anywhere from 200,000 up to 1,000,000. These caravans suffered great privations, but they were not submitted to general massacre as were the Armenians, and this is probably the reason why the outside world has not heard so much about them. The Turks showed them this greater consideration not from any motive of pity. The Greeks, unlike the Armenians, had a government which was vitally interested in their welfare. At this time there was a general apprehension among the Teutonic Allies that Greece would enter the war on the side of the Entente, and a wholesale massacre of Greeks in Asia Minor would unquestionably have produced such a state of mind in Greece that its pro-German king would have been unable longer to keep his country out of the war. It was only a matter of state policy, therefore, that saved these Greek subjects of Turkey from all the horrors that befell the Armenians. But their sufferings are still terrible, and constitute another chapter in the long story of crimes for which civilization will hold the Turk responsible.

(Chapter XXVIII; page 386)

When Turkey decided on the deportation and massacre of her subject peoples, especially the Armenians and Greeks, she had signed her own economic death warrant. These were the people, as I have already said, who controlled her industries and her finances and developed her agriculture, and the material consequences of this great national crime now began to be everywhere apparent. The farms were lying uncultivated and daily thousands of peasants were dying of starvation. As the Armenians and Greeks were the largest taxpayers, their annihilation greatly reduced the state revenues, and the fact that practically all Turkish ports were blockaded had shut off customs collections.


"As the destroyer moved away from the fearful scene and darkness descended, the flames, raging now over a vast area, grew brighter and brighter, presenting a scene of awful and sinister beauty. Historians and archeologists have declared that they know of but one event in the annals of the world which can equal in savagery, extent and all the elements of horror, cruelty and human suffering, the destruction of Smyrna and its Christian population by the Turks, and this was the demolition of Carthage by the Romans."

"The "London Times" correspondent telegraphed: "The killing was carried out systematically. Turkish regulars and irregulars are described as rounding up likely wealthy people in the streets and, after stripping them, killing them in batches. Many Christians who had taken refuge in the churches were burned to death in the buildings which had been set on fire."

"A prominent Y. M. C. A. official, a native-born American, related to me the following: "I was standing with several others on the deck of a ship, watching the fire, when I saw some persons throwing some liquid against one of the large buildings directly on the sea, and very soon the building burst into bright flames. Turkish soldiers were patrolling up and down in front of the building at the time and did not interfere."

"Among other witnesses of the Smyrna outrage was an employee of the great firm of MacAndrews and Forbes, of New York. Their offices at Smyrna were in the fire-devastated area. This man saw Turks throwing hand-grenades into buildings, which later caught fire."

"There is no doubt, however, that many Greek children, attendants of the schools in the center of the burned area, perished in the flames, and that numerous sick lost their lives in the same way. What the number was can not be determined, but in view of the rapidity of the spread of the fire, any safe evacuation of the hospitals was evidently impossible."

"A prominent Dutch merchant of Smyrna, who had taken refuge on his yacht during the fire, related to me at Athens that all through the night of the dreadful thirteenth he heard fearful screams from the shore, ending suddenly in a queer watery gurgle. He learned the next morning that a lot of throats had been cut."

""All ovens in the Christian quarters, where we were, at least, and probably everywhere, had been ordered closed from Sunday until Wednesday, when the city burned. It looks now to me like a definite attempt to starve the population out." "The Red Cross insisted on ovens being opened for them and the people were then burned out.""

"THE complete and documentary account of the ferocious persecutions of the Christian population of the Smyrna region, which occurred in 1914, is not difficult to obtain; but it will suffice, by way of illustration, to give only some extracts from a report by the French eye-witness, Manciet, concerning the massacre and pillage of Phocea, a town of eight thousand Greek inhabitants and about four hundred Turks, situated on the sea a short distance from Smyrna. The destruction of Phocea excited great interest in Marseilles, as colonists of the very ancient Greek town founded the French city. Phocea is the mother of Marseilles. Monsieur Manciet was present at the massacre and pillage of Phocea, and, together with three other Frenchman, Messieurs Sartiaux, Carlier and Dandria, saved hundreds of lives by courage and presence of mind."

"American relief workers, standing on the deck of a ship, which left Smyrna soon after the Simpson, related that they saw a man throw himself into the sea and swim toward the vessel. A Turkish soldier raised his rifle, took aim and blew the man’s head off. Another American, in relating the same incident to me, added the detail that the Turk pointed his rifle over the shoulder of a British Marine. Teachers and others of the American Girls’ school told me that they saw a lady who resided in the house directly across the street standing in the road surrounded by Turkish soldiers, who were robbing her and tearing the rings from her fingers. When they finished, one of them stepped back and cut one of her hands off with his sword. The lady was never seen again and doubtless died as the result of her injuries."

"A well-known Y. M. C. A. worker informed me at Athens that he saw women stabbed with bayonets by Turks and the bodies of children who had been thus stabbed. His progress through the town in an automobile while on errands of mercy, was impeded by corpses."

"The destruction of Smyrna happened, however, in 1922, and no act ever perpetrated by the Turkish race in all its bloodstained history, has been characterized by more brutal and lustful features, nor more productive of the worst forms of human sufferings inflicted on the defenseless and unarmed. It was a fittingly lurid and Satanic finale to the whole dreadful tragedy. The uncertainty which at one time existed in the public mind as to the question, "Who burned Smyrna?", seems to be pretty well dispelled. All statements that tend to throw doubt on the matter can be traced to suspicious and interested sources. The careful and impartial historian, William Stearns Davis, to whom reference has already been made in this work, says ("A short History of the Near East", page 393): "The Turks drove straight onward to Smyrna, which they took (September 9, 1922) and then burned." Men of this stamp do not make assertions without having first gone carefully into the evidence."

"At the close of the Great War the Turk was beaten to his feet and his prestige ruined. "The Sword of Islam" had been broken. The victory over the Greeks, and the spectacular destruction of Smyrna with the massacre of its inhabitants, revived the legend of the conquering and avenging Turk. "The Sword of Islam" had been welded again, to conquer and destroy."

"It should be borne in mind, however, that it was not until after the declaration of the constitution that the idea "Turkey for the Turks" took definite shape and developed into the scheme of accomplishing its purpose by the final extinction of all the Christian populations of that blood-soaked land—a plan consistent with, and a continuation of, the general history of Mohammedan expansion in the ancient home lands of Christianity."

"It will, it is true, be for the first time, an almost purely Turkish population, for of the Greeks and Armenians who in 1914 still numbered some three million in Asia Minor, only the scantiest remnants are left."

"This last scene on the Smyrna quay reveals the whole diabolical and methodically carried-out plan of the Turks. The soldiers were allowed to glut their lust for blood and plunder and rape by falling first on the Armenians, butchering and burning them and making free with their women and girls. But the Greeks, for whom a deeper hatred existed, were reserved for a slower and more leisurely death. The few that have been coming back tell terrible tales. Some were shot down or killed off in squads. All were starved and thousands died of disease, fatigue and exposure. Authentic reports of American relief workers tell of small bands far inland that started out thousands strong."

"Also, Sir Valentine Chirol, Harris Foundation lecturer at the University of Chicago in 1924, made this statement ("The Occident and the Orient", page 58): "After the Turks had smashed the Greek armies they turned the essentially Greek city (Smyrna) into an ash heap as proof of their victory.""

"Certainly at Smyrna, nothing was lacking in the way of atrocity, lust, cruelty and all that fury of human passion which, given their full play, degrade the human race to a level lower than the vilest and cruelest of beasts. For during all this diabolical drama the Turks robbed and raped. Even the raping can be understood as an impulse of nature, irresistible perhaps, when passions are running wild among a people of low mentality and less civilization, but the repeated robbing of women and girls can be attributed neither to religious frenzy nor to animal passions. One of the keenest impressions, which I brought away with me from Smyrna was a feeling of shame that I belonged to the human race."

""The appearance of Smyrna is tragic. Even two years and a half after the tragedy the ruins are untouched. For two kilometers along the quay stretch the skeletons—the ghosts of houses. And behind are more miles of streets, lined by other phantom houses, like an endless morgue." "This phantom city is a terrible symbol of all Turkey. That which above all attracts attention is the disappearance of the Greeks, swept out, extirpated from that city, which was their metropolis in the Levant and where they dominated all forms of activity. The Armenians have also completely disappeared. The Jews endure with difficulty the handicaps which they undergo in their sphere of life.""

"There were also sporadic acts of great ferocity committed against the peaceful Christian inhabitants of the country, which were always attributed by the Turks to roving bands of Chetas. Who these Chetas were, I do not know, but it is my opinion that they did not come from far. I remember one particularly atrocious case-the massacre and disemboweling of a Greek miller and his wife and their two children."

"I RETURNED to Smyrna in 1919, shortly after the Greek army had landed in the city. As the Turkish plan of extermination was well under way before the arrival of the Greek troops, the Christian peasants had been driven out of the entire region with the exception of the city itself, and many had perished, their farms and villages being destroyed."

"Enough has been said, however, to convince the reader that the extermination of the Christians of Turkey was an organized butchery, carried out on a great scale, and well under way before the Greeks were sent to Smyrna. We have seen it in operation in the days of Abdul Hamid, "the butcher," we have seen it more fully developed and better organized under Talaat and Enver, those statesmen of the "Constitution." We shall behold it carried out to its dire finish by Mustapha Khemal, the "George Washington" of Turkey."

"We have already seen by what methods the Greeks had been eliminated from the coastal region of Asia Minor. The murders and deportations have been described by which a flourishing and rapidly growing civilization had been destroyed, villages and farmhouses wrecked and vineyards uprooted. Large numbers of Greeks, however, who had managed to escape by sea, returned to their ruined homes after the landing of the Hellenic army in May of 1919, and set to work industriously to restore their ruined properties.

Mustapha Khemal now determined to make a complete and irretrievable ruin of Christianity in Asia Minor. Carthago delenda est. The plan, revealed by its execution, was to give the city up for some days to lust and carnage; to butcher the Armenians, a task which has always given a special pleasure to the Turk; to burn the town and to carry the Greek men away into captivity."

Queen B
12-01-2012, 09:12 PM
I showed tons of links which disprove those propagandas. You couldn't even answer the one about so-called Pontian Genocide.
Where?


I doubt it since I don't hear about Turks who has done that. Most Turks who want to search about their heritage and old properties generally use archives.
If you ever visit Thessaloniki, I can show you a couple of houses that I personally know the story behind ;)

Archives my ass. If they have a title, they can claim. There is nothing more legal and more obvious than this. :picard1:

wvwvw
12-01-2012, 09:21 PM
"These leaders not only reverted to the barbaric conceptions of their ancestors, but they went to extremes that had never entered the minds of the early sultans. Their fifteenth and sixteenth century predecessors treated the subject peoples as dirt under their feet, yet they believed that they had a certain usefulness and did not disdain to make them their slaves. But this Committee of Union and Progress, led by Talaat and Enver, now decided to do away with them altogether. The old conquering Turks had made the Christians their servants, but their parvenu descendants bettered their instruction, for they determined to exterminate them wholesale and Turkify the empire by massacring the non-Moslem elements."

""The man most responsible for all this horror was Talaat Bey. What is the attitude of the government of Mustapha Khemal to Talaat and his methods? When Talaat died the government at Angora held a service in his honor. The Yeni gun, the official organ of the Nationalist party, came out with great mourning bands of black. In the editorial were these sentences: 'Talaat wrote the most glorious pages in Turkish history. Let the eyes that do not weep become blind. Let the heart that does not ache cease to beat.' Khemal has followed in the footsteps of Talaat. Massacres, deportations, cruelty, outrage and terror, have marked the reign of the Nationalist government. The Smyrna tragedy has taken place in hundreds of villages on a smaller scale. The innocence of childhood, the sacredness of womanhood, the tears of mothers, the cries of the helpless, make no appeal at all to the armies or the courts of this government.""

"The Turks attempted to force the Greek subjects to become Mohammedans; Greek girls, just like Armenian girls, were stolen and taken to Turkish harems and Greek boys were kidnapped and placed in Moslem households."

"The reign of terror, the Turks’ immemorial method of rule, was on in earnest, and the next step taken to generalize it was the so-called "disarming". This meant, as always, the disarming of the Christian element, and the furnishing of weapons to the Turks. An order was issued that all persons must give up their guns and other weapons, and squads of soldiers were sent out through villages to put this edict into effect. That the object was not so much to collect hidden arms as to terrorize the inhabitants was soon made evident from the tortures inflicted during the search. Bastinadoing was a favorite measure. The feet of the peasants, accustomed to going barefoot, were very tough; they were therefore tied down and their toes beaten to a pulp with clubs."

"It was this indiscriminate persecution of Greeks, Bulgars and Serbs which drove them into the same camp and enabled them to chase the Turk out of Macedonia, even though they did fall at one another’s throats as noon am they got rid of the common enemy. Any one inclined to doubt the veracity of the above description must understand, if he knows anything of Balkan matters, that it needed a pretty serious state of affairs to cause Greek and Bulgar to fight on the same side."

Italy and the World War Chapter IX:

"They might have been content to wait under the old régime until it rotted to its fall, but the accession to Power of the Young Turks had changed the situation radically. These exhibited much more energy and determination, but were not a whit more modern or liberal than their predecessors. If anything, they were more repressive. Instead of putting through the long-expected Reforms in Macedonia, they had definitely abandoned the promised policy, and the persecution of the Christian subjects had been so atrocious as to inflame the people of Greece and Bulgaria, of whom the population for the most part had originally formed elements."

"Whereas, in view of the terrorist regime which has existed in Turkey since November 1, 1914, conversions to Islam could not take place under normal conditions, no conversions since that date are recognised and all persons who were non-Moslems before November 1, 1914, will be considered as still remaining such, unless, after regaining their liberty, they voluntarily perform the necessary formalities for embracing the Islamic faith."

"The Turks knew that these deportations would precipitate a war with Greece; in fact, they welcomed such a war and were preparing for it. So enthusiastic were the Turkish people that they had raised money by popular subscription and bad purchased a Brazilian dreadnaught which was then under construction in England."

"Since Germany, however, had her own plans for Asia Minor, inevitably the Greeks in this region formed a barrier to Pan-German aspirations. As long as this region remained Greek, it formed a natural obstacle to Germany's road to the Persian Gulf, precisely as did Serbia."

"While Germany was ostensibly helping the other Powers to restore order in Crete, where the Turks were slaying the Christians in their familiar light-hearted way, the GERMAN EMPEROR was secretly inciting the CZAR to side with the Ottoman Empire and to prevent the expulsion of the Turks from the island."

"The last link in the German chain, the first one they attempted to create, is Turkey. The natural ineptitude of the Turkish Government has become a byword of statesmen; the Turks are alien in race and religion to the majority of the subject peoples; their hatred for the Christians is still intense; and the difficulty, therefore, of conducting operations through their hands is great. That, however, might be overcome had the Turk continued supine. The real difficulty which at present stands in the way of the establishment of German control in Turkey is the rise among the Turks of a national party whose chief aim is the exclusion of the foreigner and the government of Turkey solely in the interest of the Turk."

wvwvw
12-01-2012, 09:29 PM
More quotes from historical documents:

US Ambassador to Turkey quotes:

"It was a lengthy document---the English translation contains 10,000 words---full of quotations from the Koran, and its style was frenzied in its appeal to racial and religious hatred. It described a detailed plan of operations for the assassination and extermination of all Christians"

"The fall of Abdul Hamid had been made possible by the cooperation and aid of the Christians. But the latter — Greeks, Bulgars, Serbs — were soon cruelly disillusioned. A general persecution was started, the details of which were reported to their various governments by all the consuls of the city. This persecution first displayed itself in the form of sporadic murders of alarming frequency all over Macedonia, the victims being, in the beginning, notables of the various Christian communities. A favorite place for shooting these people was at their doorsteps at the moment of their return home. It became evident that the Turkish Government, in order to gain control of the territory, was bent upon the extermination of the non-Mussulman leaders. Many of those murdered had been prominent in the anti-Abdul movement."

"And for centuries the Turks simply lived like parasites upon these overburdened and industrious people. They taxed them to economic extinction, stole their most beautiful daughters and forced them into their harems, took Christian male infants by the hundreds of thousands and brought them up as Moslem soldiers. I have no intention of describing the terrible vassalage and oppression that went on for five centuries; my purpose is merely to emphasize this innate attitude of the Moslem Turk to people not of his own race and religion---that they are not human beings with rights, but merely chattels, which may be permitted to live when they promote the interest of their masters, but which may be pitilessly destroyed when they have ceased to be useful. This attitude is intensified by a total disregard for human life and an intense delight in inflicting physical human suffering which are not unusually the qualities of primitive peoples."

I will NOT shut up, I haven't started yet.

wvwvw
12-01-2012, 09:43 PM
"So imminent and ever-present was the peril, and so fresh the memory of these dire events in the minds of the non-Mussulman subjects of the sultan, that illiterate Christian mothers had fallen into the habit of dating events as so many years before or after "such and such a massacre.""

http://i50.tinypic.com/2q15ok9.jpg
A Christian child lies in front of a house


""Mr. Carlier saw an atrocious spectacle. A Christian stood at his door, which the bandits wished to enter, as his wife and daughter were in the house. He stretched out his arms to bar the way. This motion cost him his life for they shot him in the stomach. As he was staggering toward the sea, they gave him a second shot in the back, and the corpse lay there for two days.""

"We must realize that the basic fact underlying the Turkish mentality is its utter contempt for all other races. A fairly insane pride is the element that largely explains this strange human species. The common term applied by the Turk to the Christian is "dog," and in his estimation this is no mere rhetorical figure; he actually looks upon his European neighbours as far less worthy of consideration than his own domestic animals."

http://i48.tinypic.com/2e2dusm.jpg
A refugee woman

http://i49.tinypic.com/2chx4pj.jpg
Orphans

Jerreiche
12-01-2012, 10:06 PM
Shame the Greeks couldn't finish the job. Shame to see Smyrna turned into Izmir

Pecheneg
12-01-2012, 10:20 PM
Shame the Moors couldn't finish the job. Shame to see "Qurṭubah" turned into Cordoba

fixed :laugh:

Onur
12-01-2012, 10:22 PM
Do they really teach you that Greeks set Smyrna on fire?
It`s not known for sure about who burned Izmir but i know that they teach you like supposedly the Turks burned their own city of Izmir after they fought the battle against Greeks. Tough, if you watch the BBC documentary in the first post, you can see that the Greek army purposely set fire in all over central and aegean Anatolia for months, as they gradually lost vs the Turkish army. If we consider this fact, then i can easily say that the Greeks burned Izmir as they burned all other 100s of villages, cities and towns before that.


First of all, most Turks in Greece were not really rich , f.e, just like Jews were.
I cant be sure if you are deliberately lying or misinformed but you are wrong. There were so many rich Turkish people in Macedonia, especially in Salonika city center because the seaport of Salonika was the most important trade route of the Ottoman empire together with the seaport of Izmir.

All the goods from Balkans was getting transported to Europe from Salonika. Also the central bank of Ottoman empire was in Salonika again.


not really rich like the jews were? wtf you talking about Dandelion? About half of the population of Salonika was jews and they were among the richest people of Europe back then. They were fully controlling the trade in there as well as controlling the Ottoman central bank. It`s so funny that you claim such a stupid thing like "poor jews of Salonika" :). Was there anywhere in the world where jews was not rich? Is this possible?

I cant be sure if you are demonstrating your ignorance or stupidity here Dandelion.



The man in my avatar is Nikitaras a.k.a. Turkophagos, you'd find his the story behind his nickname very interesting.
Not interesting at all. I see just another delusional Albanian christian of Morea who enjoys killing his muslim Albanian kinsmen as well as muslim Turks and later to become a hero of the fake neo-hellenic entity.

Queen B
12-01-2012, 10:27 PM
not really rich like the jews were? wtf you talking about Dandelion? About half of the population of Salonika was jews and they were among the richest people of Europe back then. They were fully controlling the trade in there as well as controlling the Ottoman central bank. It`s so funny that you claim such a stupid thing like "poor jews of Salonika" :). Was there anywhere in the world where jews was not rich? Is this possible?

I cant be sure if you are demonstrating your ignorance or stupidity here Dandelion.
If my english are not that good, and in that case, I am sorry for any problem caused, I meant the opossite of what you think.:picard1:

Onur
12-01-2012, 10:37 PM
If my english are not that good, and in that case, I am sorry for any problem caused, I meant the opossite of what you think.:picard1:
OK, sorry then, i should have understood the typo, because "poor jews" sounds too stupid to claim :)

Queen B
12-01-2012, 10:51 PM
OK, sorry then, i should have understood the typo, because "poor jews" sounds too stupid to claim :)
There is no such chance . Neither to claim it, not to be true.:lol:
They are Jews!!
Not only Jews are known for their business and money skills, but the Jews of Thessaloniki are known for their wealth as well.

There are still Jews from that period that have business.
http://www.allatini.gr/
http://www.benrubi.gr/en/the-company/about-us.html

wvwvw
12-01-2012, 11:03 PM
There is no shortage of historical documents and eyewitness accounts about the fire in Smyrna:

(Horton, the Blight of Smyrna,
Chapter 14
THE DESTRUCTION OF SMYRNA
(SEPTEMBER, 1922)

THE last act in the fearful drama of the extermination of Christianity in the Byzantine Empire was the burning of Smyrna by the troops of Mustapha Khemal. The murder of the Armenian race had been practically consummated during the years 1915-1916, and the prosperous and populous Greek colonies, with the exception of Smyrna itself, had been ferociously destroyed. The idea has been widely circulated, and seems to be gaining credence, that the Turk has changed his nature overnight.

The destruction of Smyrna happened, however, in 1922, and no act ever perpetrated by the Turkish race in all its bloodstained history, has been characterized by more brutal and lustful features, nor more productive of the worst forms of human sufferings inflicted on the defenseless and unarmed. It was a fittingly lurid and Satanic finale to the whole dreadful tragedy. The uncertainty which at one time existed in the public mind as to the question, "Who burned Smyrna?", seems to be pretty well dispelled. All statements that tend to throw doubt on the matter can be traced to suspicious and interested sources. The careful and impartial historian, William Stearns Davis, to whom reference has already been made in this work, says (A short History of the Near East, page 393): "The Turks drove straight onward to Smyrna, which they took (September 9, 1922) and then burned."

Also, Sir Valentine Chirol, Harris Foundation lecturer at the University of Chicago in 1924, made this statement (The Occident and the Orient;, page 58): "After the Turks had smashed the Greek armies they turned the essentially Greek city (Smyrna) into an ash heap as proof of their victory."

Men of this stamp do not make assertions without having first gone carefully into the evidence.

We have already seen by what methods the Greeks had been eliminated from the coastal region of Asia Minor. The murders and deportations have been described by which a flourishing and rapidly growing civilization had been destroyed, villages and farmhouses wrecked and vineyards uprooted. Large numbers of Greeks, however, who had managed to escape by sea, returned to their ruined homes after the landing of the Hellenic army in May of 1919, and set to work industriously to restore their ruined properties.

Mustapha Khemal now determined to make a complete and irretrievable ruin of Christianity in Asia Minor. Carthago delenda est. The plan, revealed by its execution, was to give the city up for some days to lust and carnage; to butcher the Armenians, a task which has always given a special pleasure to the Turk; to burn the town and to carry the Greek men away into captivity.

The main facts in regard to the Smyrna fire are:

1) The streets leading into the Armenian quarter were guarded by Turkish soldier sentinels and no one was permitted to enter while the massacre was going on.

2) Armed Turks, including many soldiers, entered the quarter thus guarded and went through it looting, massacring and destroying. They made a systematic and horrible "clean up," after which they set fire to it in various places by carrying tins of petroleum or other combustibles into the houses or by saturating bundles of rags in petroleum and throwing these bundles in through the windows.

3) They planted small bombs under the paving stones in various places in the European part of the city to explode and act as a supplementary agent in the work of destruction caused by the burning petroleum which Turkish soldiers sprinkled about the streets. The petroleum spread the fire and led it through the European quarter and the bombs shook down the tottering walls. One such bomb was planted near the American Girls' School and another near the American Consulate.

4) They set fire to the Armenian quarter on the thirteenth of September 1922. The last Greek soldiers bad passed through Smyrna on the evening of the eighth, that is to say, the Turks had been in full, complete and undisputed possession of the city for five days before the fire broke out and for much of this time they had kept the Armenian quarter cut off by military control while conducting a systematic and thorough massacre. If any Armenians were still living in the localities at the time the fires were lighted they were hiding in cellars too terrified to move, for the whole town was overrun by Turkish soldiers, especially the places where the fires were started. In general, all the Christians of the city were keeping to their houses in a state of extreme and justifiable terror for themselves and their families, for the Turks had been in possession of the city for five days, during which time they had been looting, raping and killing. It was the burning of the houses of the Christians, which drove them into the streets and caused the fearful scenes of suffering which will be described later. Of this state of affairs, I was an eye-witness.

5) The fire was lighted at the edge of the Armenian quarter at a time when a strong wind was blowing toward the Christian section and away from the Turkish. The Turkish quarter was not in any way involved in the catastrophe and during all the abominable scenes that followed and all the indescribable sufferings of the Christians, the Mohammedan quarter was lighted up and gay with dancing, singing and joyous celebration.

6) Turkish soldiers led the fire down into the well-built modern Greek and European section of Smyrna by soaking the narrow streets with petroleum or other highly inflammable matter. They poured petroleum in front of the American Consulate with no other possible purpose than to communicate the fire to that building at a time when C. Clafun Davis, Chairman of the Disaster Relief Committee of the Red Cross, Constantinople Chapter, and others, were standing in the door. Mr. Davis went out and put his hands in the mud thus created and it smelled like petroleum and gasoline mixed. The soldiers seen by Mr. Davis and the others had started from the quay and were proceeding toward the fire.
Dr. Alexander Maclachlan, President of the American College, and a sergeant of American Marines were stripped, the one of his clothes and the other of a portion of his uniform, and beaten with clubs by Turkish soldiers. A squad of American Marines was fired on.
http://www.pahh.com/horton/#ch14

Jerreiche
12-01-2012, 11:09 PM
fixed :laugh:

I understand what you are trying to say. Tbh I do not mind you saying that. You guys are enemies of Europe and will support of course anything that diminishes our countries (when not trying personally to do it)

The sample however, it was poorly chosen. Corduba wasn't a Christianized moorish town, but an ancient Hispanic city which was detrimental in the province of Baetica and the Roman Empire and that was Occupied by the moors and turned into their political centre for the ocupation of the peninsula during the Emirate period.

A much more accurate choice would have been " a shame they turned Al-Yazirat Al-Hadra into Aljeciras"

(a shame for the moors anyway)

Anatolian Eagle
12-02-2012, 12:10 AM
I understand what you are trying to say. Tbh I do not mind you saying that. You guys are enemies of Europe and will support of course anything that diminishes our countries (when not trying personally to do it)

Or maybe he wouldn't a give a damn if you first didn't jump this thread about words stating similiar things :bowlol:

We aren't enemies of Europe or whatsoever, that age is over long ago, update yourselves.

Pecheneg
12-02-2012, 12:52 AM
I understand what you are trying to say. Tbh I do not mind you saying that. You guys are enemies of Europe and will support of course anything that diminishes our countries (when not trying personally to do it)

Actually I don't care Moorish-Spanish conflict in the past, i was just being ironic, unlike you who support greek invasion in Turkish homeland. What i was trying to say is mind your own business.

and no, we're not europe's enemies anymore.

Jerreiche
12-02-2012, 10:31 AM
Or maybe he wouldn't a give a damn if you first didn't jump this thread about words stating similiar things :bowlol:

As I said , I do not have a problem with him saying stuff like that. I actually expect it. See Spaniards might have a few defects, as I assume every other ethnicity does. But we like to call things by their name. Enemies are enemies, friends are friends, no need for PC bullshit or correction.

I respect Turks. I actually appreciate their country and culture. I also consider them enemies. I do not want them or their culture or religion to continue having an impact into my region (Europe)

I will also support a fellow European nation (even if only morally ) in their crusade to take back whatever land they believe they have a right to claim from such a threatening nation as the Turks.




We aren't enemies of Europe or whatsoever, that age is over long ago, update yourselves.

LOL not all of us are "useful idiots" as the mainstream cultural marxism want us to be. So take your bs elsewere

Jerreiche
12-02-2012, 10:34 AM
Actually I don't care Moorish-Spanish conflict in the past, i was just being ironic, unlike you who support greek invasion in Turkish homeland. What i was trying to say is mind your own business.

and no, we're not europe's enemies anymore.


I do not care for that conflict either. As you said, it's the past, and we won.

I support Greek invasion of Turkey any day of the week. I see Greece as a force of European-ization.That is something I support. I see Turkey as a force of Turkification. That is something I oppose. No hate here, no personal feelings. Just what it is.

And you are of course enemies of Europe (and always will be). No need on denying that , Turk, you're not in Brussels here, or talking to the BBC

Anatolian Eagle
12-02-2012, 11:08 AM
As I said , I do not have a problem with him saying stuff like that. I actually expect it. See Spaniards might have a few defects, as I assume every other ethnicity does. But we like to call things by their name. Enemies are enemies, friends are friends, no need for PC bullshit or correction.

I respect Turks. I actually appreciate their country and culture. I also consider them enemies. I do not want them or their culture or religion to continue having an impact into my region (Europe)

I will also support a fellow European nation (even if only morally ) in their crusade to take back whatever land they believe they have a right to claim from such a threatening nation as the Turks.




LOL not all of us are "useful idiots" as the mainstream cultural marxism want us to be. So take your bs elsewere

See us like whatever you want, this won't change the fact that what you believe is out-of-date and barely has any relevance on today's issues, recent developments in Turkey and politics.

Your business with leftists doesn't have any relevance to this either.

Jerreiche
12-02-2012, 11:30 AM
See us like whatever you want, this won't change the fact that what you believe is out-of-date and barely has any relevance on today's issues, recent developments in Turkey and politics.

Your business with leftists doesn't have any relevance to this either.

Well, the population of each of the 27 members of the EU is against Turkey's bid to join the EU. Maybe you would like it to be out of date, but the truth is that Turks are seen as aliens , and not just that; dangerous aliens.

We all know who Angela Markle was talking about when she said that multi culturalism in germany has failed :picard1:

Anatolian Eagle
12-02-2012, 11:46 AM
Well, the population of each of the 27 members of the EU is against Turkey's bid to join the EU. Maybe you would like it to be out of date, but the truth is that Turks are seen as aliens , and not just that; dangerous aliens.

We all know who Angela Markle was talking about when she said that multi culturalism in germany has failed :picard1:

I never said Europe is huge fan of Turkey either. I was pointing out the fact that vast majority of modern developments within' Turkey is based on West, and that Turkey has strategic and economic relationship with Europe and there's no way Turkey can be threat to Europe in today's conditions. You guys extremely fear foreign immigrants, that's understandable but this doesn't make whole country "threat to Europe" or anything.

Incal
12-02-2012, 09:03 PM
Actually I don't care Moorish-Spanish conflict in the past, i was just being ironic, unlike you who support greek invasion in Turkish homeland. What i was trying to say is mind your own business.

and no, we're not europe's enemies anymore.

Nobody wants to invade the Kazakh Steppe LOL.

Partizan
12-02-2012, 09:22 PM
There (http://theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1133906&postcount=116).

Fixed.


I do not care for that conflict either. As you said, it's the past, and we won.

I support Greek invasion of Turkey any day of the week. I see Greece as a force of European-ization.That is something I support. I see Turkey as a force of Turkification. That is something I oppose. No hate here, no personal feelings. Just what it is.

And you are of course enemies of Europe (and always will be). No need on denying that , Turk, you're not in Brussels here, or talking to the BBC

:bored:

I guess only reason of you is your girlfriend(If I remember from chatbox, she was Greek, right?). Otherwise, an average Spaniard would only care about Guti in Beşiktaş or Guiza in Fenerbahçe when it comes to Turkey. I don't care about Spain except wine, nice ladies and Spanish cuisine either.

To be honest, now Greeks have no chance for re-taking there, with those demographics and with their f*cked up economy.

About being enemies, I am neither a friend nor an enemy. However if you will attempt something like pushing Hellenised Albanians+Turkish seeds+Vlaches aka Greeks and Kurd faced Armenians on us like Limeys and Frogs did after WW1, we will respond it well... If you know quotes from FLN leaders(Algerian revolutionaries against Frogs) and Indian/Pakistani resisters against Limey colonization(Gandhi, Nehru etc.), they insisted on that, Atatürk's victory in Asia Minor gave them courage for resisting against Imperialism. I count Turkish Independence War as the concrete start of anti-colonization rebellions of 20.th century, since it showed that, "imperialists can get defeated, too".

However, if you will stay nice, we can have non-hostile relationships:

http://galeri5.uludagsozluk.com/1/ingiltere-kral%C4%B1n%C4%B1n-atat%C3%BCrk-%C3%BCn-%C3%B6n%C3%BCnde-e%C4%9Fildi%C4%9Fi-an_6853.jpg

Pecheneg
12-02-2012, 09:23 PM
Nobody wants to invade the Kazakh Steppe LOL.

Turks have been living in today's Turkey for almost 1000 years, its;
- 2-3 times older than european/white presence in american continents
- 5-10 times older than Russian presence in Russia's asian soils
- 15-20 times older than European Jews' presence in Israel


btw, Turks absorbed local peoples' of anatolia and this makes us 100% owners of these lands.

Siberian Cold Breeze
12-02-2012, 09:33 PM
I do not care for that conflict either. As you said, it's the past, and we won.

I support Greek invasion of Turkey any day of the week. I see Greece as a force of European-ization.That is something I support.

Yes ,use less crowded nations as weapon against us and later leave them alone.Seriously we would enjoy this climate better without these crappy politics .Neither Greeks nor Turks need that..We need better relations to grow our economy in this region (including Balkans) ..But do you even care? .

kabeiros
12-02-2012, 09:34 PM
Turks have been living in today's Turkey for almost 1000 years, its;
- 2-3 times older than european/white presence in american continents
- 5-10 times older than Russian presence in Russia's asian soils
- 15-20 times older than European Jews' presence in Israel


btw, Turks absorbed local peoples' of anatolia and this makes us 100% owners of these lands.
Anatolian Greeks have been living in today's Turkey for more than 3000 years, it's:
-3 times older than Turkish presence in Asia Minor
-6-7 times older than European/white presence in american continents
-10-20 times older than Russian presence in Russia's Asian soils

btw, Anatolian Greeks absorbed local peoples' of anatolia and this makes us 100% owners of these lands. So there was never any Greek invasion, it was just the final stage of Greek revolution against the occupation of an originally Greek land

Partizan
12-02-2012, 09:35 PM
Anatolian Greeks have been living in today's Turkey for more than 3000 years, it's:
-3 times older than Turkish presence in Asia Minor
-6-7 times older than European/white presence in american continents
-10-20 times older than Russian presence in Russia's Asian soils

btw, Anatolian Greeks absorbed local peoples' of anatolia and this makes us 100% owners of these lands. So there was never any Greek invasion, it was just the final stage of Greek revolution against the occupation of an originally Greek land

Ehem, sorry, the Kingdom of Greece who attacked us for "liberating" Anatolian Greeks was founded by a German king called Otto with Albanian warriors like Kollokotroni :) Yeah, they had so much to do with Anatolia :picard1:

kabeiros
12-02-2012, 09:46 PM
Ehem, sorry, the Kingdom of Greece who attacked us for "liberating" Anatolian Greeks was founded by a German king called Otto with Albanian warriors like Kollokotroni :) Yeah, they had so much to do with Anatolia :picard1:Ehem, sorry, the Kingdom of Greece who tried to liberate Anatolian Greeks from the barbarous Turkish oppression was founded because Greeks (and other Christians) kicked the bloody Turks out of Europe during 1821-1829. The fact that we had a German king means nothing because 90% of European nobility was Germanic eitherway. Finally, if the descendants of Turco-Mongolo-Persians have a rightful claim in Anatolia, Germans have it, too

Siberian Cold Breeze
12-02-2012, 09:49 PM
lololol

Kabeiros don't you have more serious problems right now..Don't let these guys to push you a war with us ..Actually I have no hostile feelings against Greeks, (only i love teasing them on you tube ) but we and Balkan nations need to look for our future .Those big boys don't care about us ..They care some chess-age of empires games only..For our well being we should think our region and our prosperity..

plus Greeks and Balkan people enjoy same food that makes us best drinking friends..:)

Partizan
12-02-2012, 10:04 PM
Ehem, sorry, the Kingdom of Greece who tried to liberate Anatolian Greeks from the barbarous Turkish oppression was founded because Greeks (and other Christians) kicked the bloody Turks out of Europe during 1821-1829. The fact that we had a German king means nothing because 90% of European nobility was Germanic eitherway. Finally, if the descendants of Turco-Mongolo-Persians have a rightful claim in Anatolia, Germans have it, too

Unfortunately, your so-called freedom fighters are Arvanites, not "holy grandsons of Socrates", sorry.

Secondly, isn't it weird, in end of a liberation war you don't appoint your own leader(like we choose Atatürk as president after the war) but Krauts appoint you a King? Not to forget, Constantine of Greece was a Dane, not a Greek :)

Thirdly, not as much as a people who built mosques, kervansarais, bazaars, hospitals etc. etc. to every city of Anatolia.

kabeiros
12-02-2012, 10:08 PM
lololol
Kabeiros don't you have more serious problems right now..Don't let these guys to push you a war with us Although I agree that weapon industries are pushing for conflicts throughout the world, Greece is not the aggressor, Turkey is. You still have an active casus belli against us..


..Actually I have no hostile feelings against Greeks, (only i love teasing them on you tube ) but we and Balkan nations need to look for our future .I wasn't so hostile against Turks in the first place but then I met some Turks via internet (Onur, Pecheneg etc.) who made me uber hostile against your whole nation. In fact one of the main reasons I joined TA was to defend Greece/Greeks from Onuro-Pecheneggo's bullshit


plus Greeks and Balkan people enjoy same food that makes us best drinking friends..:) Yes and the Turks here can't even admit that this food we share is of various origins (Greek-Arab-Persian-Turkish-Balkan). No, it's all Turkish cuisine :picard1:

kabeiros
12-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Unfortunately, your so-called freedom fighters are Arvanites, not "holy grandsons of Socrates", sorry.Sorry, you are wrong. Our freedom fighters were Greeks and Christian Orthodox Arvanites who were not Albanians but had Greco-Albanian ancestry


Secondly, isn't it weird, in end of a liberation war you don't appoint your own leader(like we choose Atatürk as president after the war) but Krauts appoint you a King? Not to forget, Constantine of Greece was a Dane, not a Greek :) No, it's not weird we wanted a King back then and Greek nobility had been exterminated a long time ago by TURKS. By the way Byzantine nobility had left some descendants among European aristocrats and King Otto actually had Byzantine royal ancestry, too, that's why they chose him.


Thirdly, not as much as a people who built mosques, kervansarais, bazaars, hospitals etc. etc. to every city of Anatolia.Anatolian Greeks have built all this cities and monuments in Anatolia that you love showing to the tourists every year and bring billions of dollars into Turkish economy. We beat you in every aspect

Partizan
12-02-2012, 10:45 PM
Sorry, you are wrong. Our freedom fighters were Greeks and Christian Orthodox Arvanites who were not Albanians but had Greco-Albanian ancestry

Nope, almost all of them were Christian Albanians.


No, it's not weird we wanted a King back then and Greek nobility had been exterminated a long time ago by TURKS. By the way Byzantine nobility had left some descendants among European aristocrats and King Otto actually had Byzantine royal ancestry, too, that's why they chose him.


You could appoint one of leaders of Greek revolt as a king, or create a republic yourselves. However since Kingdom of Greece was a fake state created by the West, of course Westerners appointed your kings.


Anatolian Greeks have built all this cities and monuments in Anatolia that you love showing to the tourists every year and bring billions of dollars into Turkish economy. We beat you in every aspect

Firstly, most of those monuments are Roman, not Greek. You can't count Byzantine ones as Greek, even Constantinian dynasty was not even a Greek one. Secondly, in interior parts of Anatolia like Konya, Kayseri etc. there are way more Seljuk monuments. If you go Marmara, Bursa is fulled with Ottoman monuments. Istanbul has a good harmony of Byzantine(Roman) monuments and Ottoman ones. Western, Eastern and Southern parts also have many Seljuk and Anatolian Beglik monuments. So?

kabeiros
12-02-2012, 10:54 PM
Firstly, most of those monuments are Roman, not Greek. You can't count Byzantine ones as Greek, even Constantinian dynasty was not even a Greek one. The fact that you nationalist Turks can't distinguish the Eastern Romans (Byzantine GREEKS) from ancient Romans means nothing. The Byzantine empire was multi-ethnic but Greeks were the dominant force within the empire and the culture was 100% Greek. Greek language, Greek Orthodoxy, ancient Greek land, everything was Greek about it.
As for the Emperor, who gives a shit anyway. Your God Kemal Ataturk is an Albanian+Jew with 0% of Turkish ancestry but this doesn't make Turkey Albania/Judea nor does it stop you from worshiping him

Queen B
12-02-2012, 11:12 PM
Nope, almost all of them were Christian Albanians.

:picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2:


Firstly, most of those monuments are Roman, not Greek.
Temple of Artemis, Ephesus, Hallicarnasus,Ierapolis, Lucia,Aphrodisias,Assos, Knidos, Myra, Miletus,etc
Nothing Greek there :coffee:

Queen B
12-02-2012, 11:14 PM
The fact that you nationalist Turks can't distinguish the Eastern Romans (Byzantine GREEKS) from ancient Romans means nothing. The Byzantine empire was multi-ethnic but Greeks were the dominant force within the empire and the culture was 100% Greek. Greek language, Greek Orthodoxy, ancient Greek land, everything was Greek about it.
That's the reason that we didn't have a continious Roman empire, but a Roman empire AND a - different one - The Byzantine/Eastern Roman.
The empire was differianted from the Roman, exactly because of the Greek presence, culture and dominance.

Partizan
12-02-2012, 11:18 PM
The fact that you nationalist Turks can't distinguish the Eastern Romans (Byzantine GREEKS) from ancient Romans means nothing. The Byzantine empire was multi-ethnic but Greeks were the dominant force within the empire and the culture was 100% Greek. Greek language, Greek Orthodoxy, ancient Greek land, everything was Greek about it.

While almost all of early Byzantine kings were not Greeks but various Byzantine generals with different ancestry? :picard1:


As for the Emperor, who gives a shit anyway. Your God Kemal Ataturk is an Albanian+Jew with 0% of Turkish ancestry but this doesn't make Turkey Albania/Judea nor does it stop you from worshiping him

:bored:

It is proved, Atatürk's paternal side is from a Turkish village in Macedonia and his fathers' side had title of Kızılca, the same with Yörük clan Kızılca in Afyon and Konya. Atatürk's maternal side was a known Sufi/Mevlevi dervish family, who migrated from Konya to Selanik...

BTW what's your obsession with Turks' so called "worshiping" Atatürk? Perhaps because of your Greek(!) kings were Danes and Germans who were appointed by the West? Jealousy :rolleyes:

TheMagnificent
12-02-2012, 11:20 PM
:picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2:

Temple of Artemis, Ephesus, Hallicarnasus,Ierapolis, Lucia,Aphrodisias,Assos, Knidos, Myra, Miletus,etc
Nothing Greek there :coffee:

And you think those are the only monuments Turkey has? :rolleyes:

gregorius
12-02-2012, 11:20 PM
While almost all of early Byzantine kings were not Greeks but various Byzantine generals with different ancestry? :picard1:



:bored:

It is proved, Atatürk's paternal side is from a Turkish village in Macedonia and his fathers' side had title of Kızılca, the same with Yörük clan Kızılca in Afyon and Konya. Atatürk's maternal side was a known Sufi/Mevlevi dervish family, who migrated from Konya to Selanik...

BTW what's your obsession with Turks' so called "worshiping" Atatürk? Perhaps because of your Greek(!) kings were Danes and Germans who were appointed by the West? Jealousy :rolleyes:

Proved by some people in the villages yes.

Queen B
12-02-2012, 11:21 PM
And you think those are the only monuments Turkey has? :rolleyes:
Did I ever said such thing? :picard1:

kabeiros
12-02-2012, 11:23 PM
According to this mentality, we should hate Greeks with a passion since this forum hosts a mentally retarded Greek named Criterioh. Onur is a dumbass who has become a moderator :picard1: and all day long looks into old newspaper articles to find something negative to post about Greece or Greeks. Criterioh probably responds to Onur's stupidity

Partizan
12-02-2012, 11:23 PM
Temple of Artemis, Ephesus, Hallicarnasus,Ierapolis, Lucia,Aphrodisias,Assos, Knidos, Myra, Miletus,etc
Nothing Greek there :coffee:

I do not deny existence of some Ionian monuments but showing Byzantine(Roman) ones like Hagia Sophia and Basilica Cistern are just funny.

kabeiros
12-02-2012, 11:25 PM
I do not deny existence of some Ionian monuments but showing Byzantine(Roman) ones like Hagia Sophia and Basilica Cistern are just funny.
Yes, because Anthemius of Tralles and Isidorus of Miletus were not Greeks, they were Turks :picard2:

Turkophagos
12-02-2012, 11:26 PM
I do not deny existence of some Ionian monuments but showing Byzantine(Roman) ones like Hagia Sophia and Basilica Cistern are just funny.

Isidore of Miletus was one of the two main Byzantine Greek architects (Anthemius of Tralles was the other) that Emperor Justinian I commissioned to design the church of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople from 532-537A.D.


...

Partizan
12-02-2012, 11:30 PM
Isidore of Miletus was one of the two main Byzantine Greek architects (Anthemius of Tralles was the other) that Emperor Justinian I commissioned to design the church of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople from 532-537A.D.


...

BUT the Byzantine Empire at start was not a Greek dynasty, sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinian_dynasty

So, claiming Byzantine monuments as Greek ones is nothing but a chauvinistic vandalism on history.

Queen B
12-02-2012, 11:34 PM
Yes, because Anthemius of Tralles and Isidorus of Miletus were not Greeks, they were Turks :picard2:
:rolleyes:
BUT the Byzantine Empire at start was not a Greek dynasty, sorry.

No, apparently it was a Martian one :picard1:

kabeiros
12-02-2012, 11:35 PM
BUT the Byzantine Empire at start was not a Greek dynasty, sorry. The origin of the Emperor doesn't make Byzantium non-Greek. There was a Roman Emperor who originated in Carthage but this didn't turn the Roman Empire into the Phoenician Empire. Your arguments are foolish


So, claiming Byzantine monuments as Greek ones is nothing but a chauvinistic vandalism on history. We claim as Greek monuments those monuments which have been constructed by Greeks, while you claim as Turkish monuments even the ones which have been made by Greeks and Armenians. Who is the chauvinistic vandal?

Partizan
12-02-2012, 11:39 PM
The origin of the Emperor doesn't make Byzantium non-Greek. There was a Roman Emperor who originated in Carthage but this didn't turn the Roman Empire into the Phoenician Empire. Your arguments are foolish


a Roman Emperor


a

Yeah, quite relevant. Byzantine Empire was created by a NON-GREEK FAMILY, however you are comparing it to just one emperor? :bored:


We claim as Greek monuments those monuments which have been constructed by Greeks, while you claim as Turkish monuments even the ones which have been made by Greeks and Armenians. Who is the chauvinistic vandal?

You claim ROMAN monuments at real, the problem is that :rolleyes: