In terms of appearance and genes, does the "midpoint method" work?

[Sikeliot]

Say for instance, someone is half British and half Spanish. Will they genetically be similar to a French person, since France is located halfway between? Will they likely look French?

If someone is half Turkish and half Serbian, will they look, and genetically, cluster with a Greek?Would an Ethiopian be genetically intermediate between a Kenyan and a Saudi? In this case I think they look the part.

You get what I mean. If you pick two nations that someone has ancestry, will they generally cluster with and look like the ethnicity that is the midpoint?

This idea relies on the presumption that appearance and genetics change gradually as you move in various directions.

[Atlantic Islander]

This man is half Finnish half Spanish, it's fairly obvious which genes ended up dominating in terms of phenotype:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/animebooklover/rd1-1.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/animebooklover/9eslz3za4oi22ia.jpg

I don't think he looks like any midpoint population.

Of course it would be interesting to see what the oracle results would be like.

[Sikeliot]

But genetically would he cluster near Germans, since that is the geographic midpoint?

I think the midpoint method would work unless a group of people are a genetic anomaly for their location.

[Insuperable]

I think he would cluster somewhere around Germany but that does not make him genetically German. Hard to explain.

[Sikeliot]

Here's a good one.

Sicilians are halfway, genetically, between Iberians and Assyrians, although slightly geographically closer to Spain.. since Greeks are genetically almost identical and actually are closer to halfway between the two geographically, we can infer that Greeks are a good example of this "midpoint method".. they are about halfway between northern Iraq and Spain, and genetically must be similar as well.

[Damião de Góis]

No, i don't think so. That would mean this girl should look french:

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jessica+Athayde+Mango+New+Collection+Launch+tgh_7v Z1yyFl.jpg

[Sikeliot]

No, i don't think so. That would mean this girl should look french:

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jessica+Athayde+Mango+New+Collection+Launch+tgh_7v Z1yyFl.jpg

What is she?

[Damião de Góis]

What is she?

portuguese + english

[Sikeliot]

I don't see why she couldn't pass as French..

[Damião de Góis]

I don't see why she couldn't pass as French..

From what i know of french people, she doesn't look french.

[Sikeliot]

I think she does.

[Atlantic Islander]

I think she does.

I don't think people would first and foremost guess her as French, being able to pass is something completely different.

[Insuperable]

I think that exception geographically would be a mix of Finn and Sardinian.
They two should produce a Spaniard.

[EagleAtHeart]

No. My brother looks fully Italian, like my father. I look exactly like my mother, who is German. We look nothing alike. It's a genetic lottery.

[Damião de Góis]

I think that exception geographically would be a mix of Finn and Sardinian.
They two should produce a Spaniard.

Actually, that mix would produce someone genetically close to UK or France.

[Insuperable]

Actually, that mix would produce someone genetically close to UK or France.

It would actually "produce" a Basque person to be more exact.

[Damião de Góis]

It would actually "produce" a Basque person to be more exact.

I looked at some genetic plots to see that median of those two populations just out of curiosity and finns are too much to the north, so the medium point between them and sardinians is north of iberians or basques.

[Insuperable]

I looked at some genetic plots to see that median of those two populations just out of curiosity and finns are too much to the north, so the medium point between them and sardinians is north of iberians or basques.

Well you are right I guess but although PCA plot depend on admixture results and vice versa Basques by admixtures seem to be like a 50-50 mix of Neolithic Europeans like Sardinians and Mesolithic Europeans like Saamis and Finns (minus Syberian). That is in theory what they really would be but do not hold me for it.
But in any case, in either way it does not respond geographically. That is the point.

[zlakopistou]

Bullshit. Anybody who's recently admixed don't cluster with non-mixed populations. Not to mention the various levels of East Eurasian, Siberian and African ancestry in Europeans.

[Anglojew]

Some offepring look like one of the parents but in general I'd agree with your contention. I'm half English and half Jewish and everyone things I look Italian.

[Belenus]

I'm Irish/Scottish and my wife is German. So based on this theory, what sort of 'midpoint' would our child have? English?

[Jackson]

Actually, a friend on another forum is 50% Irish/British, 25% Finnish and 25% Italian, and he ends up closest to Hungarians or Austrians i think, so it kind of works?

[Smaug]

Well, if this is true then you can call me Europe Boy.

[Stefan]

There's no mathematical basis to this, as far as I can tell. My understanding of linear algebra is limited, but I'm not so sure you can add up eigenvalues and divide them by n "number of eigenvalues" to get an accurate data point that will manifest itself empirically via a hybrid.

This would be far less true for phenotype, because only a few genes affect phenotype and mostly they're based on Mendelian Genetics.

If you're interested in how it works, I found this link.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020190

Your Sicilian, Greek, Spanish, and Assyrian example doesn't work because these are populations with geo-political structures that align with these populations.

[Sultan Suleiman]

I don't see why she couldn't pass as French..

Because she looks that she could stand in a fight for more than 5 seconds :rolleyes:

[Sikeliot]

Your Sicilian, Greek, Spanish, and Assyrian example doesn't work because these are populations with geo-political structures that align with these populations.

What do you mean?

[Smaug]

There's no mathematical basis to this, as far as I can tell. My understanding of linear algebra is limited, but I'm not so sure you can add up eigenvalues and divide them by n "number of eigenvalues" to get an accurate data point that will manifest itself empirically via a hybrid.

This would be far less true for phenotype, because only a few genes affect phenotype and mostly they're based on Mendelian Genetics.

If you're interested in how it works, I found this link.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020190

Your Sicilian, Greek, Spanish, and Assyrian example doesn't work because these are populations with geo-political structures that align with these populations.

I studied Linear Algebra, and believe me, you are right. It doesn't make any sense when it is applied to Genetics, because even though in Genetics we have some laws based on mathematical principles, like the Mendel's Law for example, it can't apply to all cases because in Genetics we have what we call "unexpected events", events that cannot be predicted by mathematical methods, or even if they can be predicted, there's no certainty they will happen.

[Pallantides]

Anyone know of any British+Finn mixes, I wonder if they look Norwegian:p

[Stefan]

What do you mean?

We already know that genetic populations align with geographical populations from empirical evidence. That is all we know unless we look at the structure of the allelic frequencies, which to be honest - is well beyond our scope. We can't assume that Greeks are a hybridization of Iraqis and Spaniards, for example. In fact, from historical data and the separation of genetic data into components, it seems as if ancient populations have contributed to the whole as parts over time. Which means, mixing a Spaniard and an Iraqi will likely not make the same value, but will give the same(or similar) percentage of components. Of course this depends on the accuracy of the statistical analysis, I'd think - which for genetics, might not be too accurate.

[Slycooper]

12.5% of an ethnicity. Is that enough for it to possibly show in your phenotype?

[Sikeliot]

We can't assume that Greeks are a hybridization of Iraqis and Spaniards, for example. In fact, from historical data and the separation of genetic data into components, it seems as if ancient populations have contributed to the whole as parts over time. Which means, mixing a Spaniard and an Iraqi will likely not make the same value, but will give the same(or similar) percentage of components.

What I meant was that Greeks (and Sicilians too for that matter) are primarily derived from two source populations.. a European Mediterranean one from the Paleolithic who would be somewhat similar to the Spanish today, and a Neolithic West Asian one somewhat similar to Assyrians today. Greeks, though, have some Slavic component from more recent times.

[Pallantides]

There is almost no genetic continuation between Mesolithic peoples who lived in Iberia and modern Spaniards, so I find it unlikely that the earlier Palaeolithic's would be more similar to modern Spanish people.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-06/snrc-crp062512.php


I think Mediterranean peoples arrived later and might have then pushed these earlier people further north.

[Anusiya]

I think Mediterranean peoples arrived later and might have then pushed these earlier people further north.

I don't support Sikeliot's viewpoint. It sounds like you are applying Mechanics with the resultant force being proportional to the forces applied or something. I am fairly certain it doesn't happen this way. It's more of a substrate thing going on.

Mediterranean peoples were Atlantid and some CM who inhabited the Mediterranean islands. Then some Indoeuropeans came and they mixed. And these consisted a new Mediterranean population.
We can see the population migrations taking place even today. Why should the rule be changed.

At least this is what happened with the Greek peninsula, and I am fairly sure about Sardinia, Italy and Sicily.

[Stefan]

There is almost no genetic continuation between Mesolithic peoples who lived in Iberia and modern Spaniards, so I find it unlikely that the earlier Palaeolithic's would be more similar to modern Spanish people.

I'm not sure about it being that extreme. The mesolithic Europeans clustered outside of ALL modern Europeans, and while they're most similar to Northern Europeans (due to their lesser neolithic influence) - Spanish (out of all Southern Europeans) score the highest Northern European in general. An example which contradicts your statement: the skeletons cited in your link had mtDNA U5b, which is most prevalent among Basques (http://euskararenjatorria.eu/2-Sergio_Cardoso_Marian_Mtez_Pancorbo.pdf) (pg. 7.) This means that Iberians are at least partially descended from their Mesolithic mothers.

Of course the component Skelliot is talking about isn't Paleolithic nor Mesolithic, but Bell Beaker most probably.

[Pallantides]

I'm not sure about it being that extreme. The mesolithic Europeans clustered outside of ALL modern Europeans, and while they're most similar to Northern Europeans (due to their lesser neolithic influence)

They were genetically most similar to modern Saami(this have been confirmed by multiple sources already)
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p515/aphetor/mdlpmesolithic.jpg

Braña1 80.9%
Braña 2 80%
Saami 76.4%
Finnish-North 37.3%
Finnish-South 30.1%
Vepsa 24.1%
Finnish 23.6%
Karelian 23.2%
Inkeri 22.7%
Gok4 12.1%
Russian_North 10.5%

The Saami as well are outliners from Europeans but are closest to North Europeans

[Ira di Dio]

Sikeliot I'm curious, where being 1/2 Sicilian, 1/4 Polish and 1/4 Portuguese would place you?
More importantly, if a Sicilian marries a Londoner does a beautiful "polentun" boy come out?

[Kazuma]

Sikeliot I'm curious, where being 1/2 Sicilian, 1/4 Polish and 1/4 Portuguese would place you?

according to this theory, among the fish of the ligurian sea

[Ira di Dio]

according to this theory, among the fish of the ligurian sea
Er he doesn't really look Ligurian to me Kazuma. You are Ligurian, what do you think?

[jerney]

No, not really. Like someone else said in this thread, genetics are way too random for that to work. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'd say it's more common to find offspring looking more like one parent or a random mix of both (90% wog and 10% northern, for example)

[Kazuma]

Er he doesn't really look Ligurian to me Kazuma. You are Ligurian, what do you think?

No, he looks portuguese or sicilian in my opinion. It depends on the pic.

[Ira di Dio]

No, he looks portuguese or sicilian in my opinion. It depends on the pic.
Totally agree. :)

[Sikeliot]

Ira di Dio thought I didn't look Italian all that much, so I guess it depends on the person's viewpoint.

Anyway, I am stuck in the area between northern Italy and Croatia.. too Slavic for the former, but not quite the latter. On 23andme my closest matches are people from those places.

Mixed with English, my child would come out in France.

[Stefan]

They were genetically most similar to modern Saami(this have been confirmed by multiple sources already)

Braña1 80.9%
Braña 2 80%
Saami 76.4%
Finnish-North 37.3%
Finnish-South 30.1%
Vepsa 24.1%
Finnish 23.6%
Karelian 23.2%
Inkeri 22.7%
Gok4 12.1%
Russian_North 10.5%

The Saami as well are outliners from Europeans but are closest to North Europeans

Yes, but my argument was that there is a difference between descent (which you were implying with the phrase " genetic continuation") and overall similarity. A modern Spaniard can have ancestry from a Mesolithic Spaniard while still being less genetically similar to the Mesolithic Spaniard overall, because of his other ancestry. That doesn't mean they are more or less descended from Mesolithic Spaniards as Saami. It only means that the Saami's ancestral population has remained isolated, and hence the modern population has deviated the least from the Mesolithic Saami and their cousin Mesolithic Iberian. Basically the Saami's ancestors are cousins of a portion of the ancestors of Iberians. This does not say anything about the descent of the Iberians other than the Iberians have other, larger, and recent contributions. This does not mean there is "almost no" genetic continuation, and it doesn't mean that the Mesolithic Iberians were entirely forced out rather than becoming hybridized. As is is seemingly untrue considering the mtDNA lineage found in the Basque.

Also, how do they explain the portion of Central-Asians (Afghanistan/Pakistan particularly) and West-Asians who have higher/equal peaks than/to many Northern Europeans in that map? That is surprising.