Celts in Europe [split from "most liked people in your country"]

[Englisc]

It's the other way around. Portuguese is modified galician.
But Galicians are Celtic aren't they?

[Damião de Góis]

But Galicians are Celtic aren't they?

As Celtic as everyone else. Celts in Europe:

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/images/Celts_in_Europe.png

Galician is also a romance language, so i'm not sure what you meant.

[Englisc]

As Celtic as everyone else. Celts in Europe:

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/images/Celts_in_Europe.png

Galician is also a romance language, so i'm not sure what you meant.
Ofcourse Celts were around in ancient times. But Galicia is sometimes counted as one of the modern Celtic nations.

http://www.gallaicrevivalmovement.spruz.com/user/380875/members/187252E2-3D09-425F-BE91-C020999345F0/big_201051711445751.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

Ofcourse Celts were around in ancient times. But Galicia is sometimes counted as one of the modern Celtic nations.


Well, that Celtic Nations thing is a modern concept anyway, part of the celtic revival. I don't know what qualifies one region to be a part of that, and who decides it.

[Englisc]

Well, that Celtic Nations thing is a modern concept anyway, part of the celtic revival. I don't know what qualifies one region to be a part of that, and who decides it.
It's decided by the survival of Celtic languages, however this has not occurred in Galicia so that region is sometimes not included within the modern Celtic nations.

[Damião de Góis]

It's decided by the survival of Celtic languages, however this has not occurred in Galicia so that region is sometimes not included within the modern Celtic nations.

There are no celtic languages anywhere in Iberia anymore. What Galicia has is a large number of sites such has these:

http://www.intergalcome.uvigo.es/imaxes/barona.jpg

Their traditional music also sounds like what you would consider as "celtic". But that's it, their language is similar to other Iberian languages and it's a Romance language.

[Belenus]

On the discussion of the Celts... most of western Europe, and a lot of central/southern Europe, has some degree of Celtic ancestral heritage. The survival or non-survival of Celtic languages is irrelevant, really. Ireland speaks English more than Gaelic, but they are genetically about as close to the ancient Celts as can be (albeit with the added Viking element).

I personally view Frenchmen, Spaniards, Portuguese, etc. as Romanised Celts, since that's pretty much what they are in terms of ancestry.

[Ira di Dio]

On the discussion of the Celts... most of western Europe, and a lot of central/southern Europe, has some degree of Celtic ancestral heritage. The survival or non-survival of Celtic languages is irrelevant, really. Ireland speaks English more than Gaelic, but they are genetically about as close to the ancient Celts as can be (albeit with the added Viking element).

I personally view Frenchmen, Spaniards, Portuguese, etc. as Romanised Celts, since that's pretty much what they are in terms of ancestry.
Romance-speaking Irishmen, I see...

[Damião de Góis]

On the discussion of the Celts... most of western Europe, and a lot of central/southern Europe, has some degree of Celtic ancestral heritage. The survival or non-survival of Celtic languages is irrelevant, really. Ireland speaks English more than Gaelic, but they are genetically about as close to the ancient Celts as can be (albeit with the added Viking element).

I personally view Frenchmen, Spaniards, Portuguese, etc. as Romanised Celts, since that's pretty much what they are in terms of ancestry.

I think that what happened was Celtization of local peoples around Europe instead of the people from the yellow part expanding and replacing the population everywhere:

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/images/Celts_in_Europe.png

In that way i disagree that Irish people are as close to ancient Celts as you can get, since they are most likely Celticized britons, or local irish people.

How this celtization occured is an interesting question.

[gold_fenix]

I think that what happened was Celtization of local peoples around Europe instead of the people from the yellow part expanding and replacing the population everywhere:

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/images/Celts_in_Europe.png

In that way i disagree that Irish people are as close to ancient Celts as you can get, since they are most likely Celticized britons, or local irish people.

How this celtization occured is an interesting question.

Alex you should to move parte of the post to another section, it is a interesting subject who shouldn't be treated here

[gold_fenix]

Indeed with celts in Spain it seem be related with pre-celtic and prto celtic people, even some linguist seem to find a correlation with tartessian languaje with proto celtic

[Belenus]

In that way i disagree that Irish people are as close to ancient Celts as you can get, since they are most likely Celticized britons, or local irish people.

How this celtization occured is an interesting question.

Well, yes, the very first original Celts were something else, but when we talk of the Celtic era of European history, we're generally referring to all those western Europeans from the megalithic period who adopted the Celtic culture, language, etc.

If everytime I wanted to talk about the Celts I had to specify that I mean 'those Megalith builders who became the vast majority of Celtic civilisation', it would get tedious.

So, what I was saying is that the Irish, thanks to their long isolation, are a relatively pure strain of that original western European people who built megaliths and eventually became the dominant part of the Celtic world. Spanish, Portuguese, French, etc. were all originally part of the same sub-race, but changed over the millennia by mixing with Romance and Germanic societies.

[Gaijin]

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According to the Celtic League (http://www.celticleague.net).

"Why isn’t Galicia listed by the League as the seventh Celtic nation?

In the mid 1980’s the League decided on a linguistic criterion for national membership of the League, based on a definition of what it is to be ‘Celtic’.
This definition argues that an area is Celtic if a Celtic language was spoken as a historical community language, within living memory. This definition was and still is in line with the accepted position of Celtic scholars and the pan Celtic movement. This means that Galicia cannot have a national branch of the League, because the modern historic language of Galicia is Galego – a Romance language – and has been for many centuries.
An international branch of the League can of course be set up in Galicia, in line with the rules set out in the Constituion of the League."

[Englisc]

It's decided by the survival of Celtic languages, however this has not occurred in Galicia so that region is sometimes not included within the modern Celtic nations.
For example, these maps don't include Galicia.

http://www.libraries.psu.edu/content/psul/greaterallegheny/teaching_international/ti1213/celtic/_jcr_content/openpar/textimage_psul_3/image.img.png/1344436076985.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Celtic_Nations1.svg/200px-Celtic_Nations1.svg.png

http://www.celticsurf.net/allceltic/connections/cleague/map.jpg

[Englisc]

Indeed with celts in Spain it seem be related with pre-celtic and prto celtic people, even some linguist seem to find a correlation with tartessian languaje with proto celtic
Some do, but other linguists see those inscriptions as non-Celtic, but with some Celtic names in them.

[Albion]

But Galicians are Celtic aren't they?

No, they're just more people that wish they were. Modern Celts are defined by language, but it's rather a British Isles / NW European thing because these nations share a lot in common anyway by their geographic situation and circumstances (as well as contact). Galicia is too much of an outlier, it doesn't have much in common with the British Isles or Brittany apart from its climate and geology. Most of Europe could claim Celtic heritage based on the same claims as the Galicians, so it's not going to work.
Galicians are just a Northern Iberian people whether they like it or not. They're using the claim to Celticness to differ themselves from the other groups (especially Castillians) instead of realising that the difference are there regardless of whether they're Celtic or not. Much of what they claim to be Celtic isn't even necessarily Celtic but can be from other groups or was rather pan-European in the past (such as bagpipes - their survival in Celtic regions and Galicia is because these regions were conservative and old fashioned). Galicians have more in common with Portuguese, Leonese and Asturians than they do to anyone in the British Isles and I wish they'd realise that.

"Modern Celts" refers to the Celtic-speaking British Islanders + Bretons, not to anyone else.
Galicians have ancient Celtic ancestry with some ancient Germanic in there too, but they're part of neither modern groups.

[gold_fenix]

No, they're just more people that wish they were. Modern Celts are defined by language, but it's rather a British Isles / NW European thing because these nations share a lot in common anyway by their geographic situation and circumstances (as well as contact). Galicia is too much of an outlier, it doesn't have much in common with the British Isles or Brittany apart from its climate and geology. Most of Europe could claim Celtic heritage based on the same claims as the Galicians, so it's not going to work.
Galicians are just a Northern Iberian people whether they like it or not. They're using the claim to Celticness to differ themselves from the other groups (especially Castillians) instead of realising that the difference are there regardless of whether they're Celtic or not. Much of what they claim to be Celtic isn't even necessarily Celtic but can be from other groups or was rather pan-European in the past (such as bagpipes - their survival in Celtic regions and Galicia is because these regions were conservative and old fashioned). Galicians have more in common with Portuguese, Leonese and Asturians than they do to anyone in the British Isles and I wish they'd realise that.

"Modern Celts" refers to the Celtic-speaking British Islanders + Bretons, not to anyone else.
Galicians have ancient Celtic ancestry with some ancient Germanic in there too, but they're part of neither modern groups.

the celtic herency in Gallicia comes from a complex because Gallicians sadly were always people menospreciated by other Spaniards so perhaps use this as a form to be proud

[Comte Arnau]

It's decided by the survival of Celtic languages, however this has not occurred in Galicia so that region is sometimes not included within the modern Celtic nations.

Well, it's not as if Celtic languages were vibrant these days anywhere but for Wales maybe. And Scotland is for the most part a Germanic country.

This said, I also agree that nowadays the only Celtic nations are in the Anglo-Celtic Isles and Brittany. Galicia being considered Celtic is just one of those things that look 'cool' and are useful for promotion of concerts and music labels.

[Lábaru]

This is ridiculous, this question has only two logical views.

1º areas of Europe that preserve Celtic language.

2º areas of Europe with a Celtic past.

Galicia is no different from Cantabria, Asturias, Castilla y Leon and elsewhere in Spain, we not preserve the Celtic language, is true that we preserved some words and toponymic that are of Celtic origin, Ledezma, Cerveza, camino ect.. but no language.

You guys can keep talking about Celtic nations and Galicia, as if Galicia were different to other Spanish areas. But it is literary romanticism, not reality.

[Damião de Góis]

Modern Celts are defined by language, but it's rather a British Isles / NW European thing because these nations share a lot in common anyway by their geographic situation and circumstances (as well as contact).

How is it a British Isles / NW European thing? Were the British Isles uninhabited when Celts arrived there? Or did population replacement occured there?

[Englisc]

How is it a British Isles / NW European thing? Were the British Isles uninhabited when Celts arrived there? Or did population replacement occured there?
They weren't uninhabited, bu the Celts were probably the people that carried R1b into the Isles, so it seems likely they replaced much of the existing population atleast on the paternal side.

[Damião de Góis]

They weren't uninhabited, bu the Celts were probably the people that carried R1b into the Isles, so it seems likely they replaced much of the existing population atleast on the paternal side.

I think R1b is older than that. It's possible that they were R1b carriers who moved into already R1b areas.

[Albion]

How is it a British Isles / NW European thing? Were the British Isles uninhabited when Celts arrived there? Or did population replacement occured there?

Because "Modern Celts" is more specifically referring to common traits of most non-English British Islanders and the areas they colonised (Brittany - I know about Brittonia in Iberia - it's not the same).
It's not strictly about ancient Celtic continuity. Having a Celtic language in the recent past has been set as a sort of test of "Celticity" only to exclude those nations which claim ancient Celtic continuity but have no major links to the British Isles.
What scraps of Celtic culture remained were largely in the British Isles and Brittany along with Celtic languages. Everywhere else it's rather negligible.

The British Isles obviously weren't uninhabited, some Celts would have invaded but whether it was a mass migration or a small invasion I wouldn't like to say. The British Isles became Celtic in culture and language and were even regarded as conservative (for instance, they still used war chariots when they'd be abandoned elsewhere).
At least two Celtic invasions are known - one of the Parisii to Yorkshire and another of parts of the Belgae to South East England (the Cautevellauni were apparently the natives in the SE).


I think R1b is older than that. It's possible that they were R1b carriers who moved into already R1b areas.

IMO it arrived in the late Neolithic and early Bronze age and became the majority by outbreeding the earlier inhabitants and killing some off (perhaps by disease and warfare, or just disease).

[evon]

Celts (Irish and Scots), have a bad reputation in England for being troublemakers, in Western Norway they are seen as exotic...

[Englisc]

There are some theories that the Bell Beakers spoke a early form of Celtic. If that's true then it's likely the first (or first major) influx of R1bers into Britain was by Celtic speaking Bell Beakers, as R1b cannot be much older than BB.

[Albion]

Celts (Irish and Scots), have a bad reputation in England for being troublemakers, in Western Norway they are seen as exotic...

Irish were seen as Eastern Euros are now - poor, here for work and causing a bit of trouble. Then their economy improved and they stopped coming and we forgot about them. :rolleyes: They've been coming over since practically the whole of history though, but especially during the industrial revolution and right up to the 70s and 80s.

[Albion]

There are some theories that the Bell Beakers spoke a early form of Celtic. If that's true then it's likely the first (or first major) influx of R1bers into Britain was by Celtic speaking Bell Beakers, as R1b cannot be much older than BB.

Have you seen my thread on that? (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40504) (I have some doubts about it now though, but I don't think it's too far out).
We're debating Anglo-Saxons, Celts and earlier peoples all at the same time, but it's all been done previously by yours truly. :D

[evon]

Irish were seen as Eastern Euros are now - poor, here for work and causing a bit of trouble. Then their economy improved and they stopped coming and we forgot about them. :rolleyes: They've been coming over since practically the whole of history though, but especially during the industrial revolution and right up to the 70s and 80s.

This is a brilliant summary:

d4MwblcGZbI

[Damião de Góis]

Anyway, if nowadays being "celtic" means being british, then Galicia is defenitely not celtic.

[Lábaru]

Nobody today is Celtic, regardless of ancestors, or some traditions, Celtic language ect... Celts do not already exist.

[Damião de Góis]

Nobody today is Celtic, regardless of ancestors, or some traditions, Celtic language ect... Celts do not already exist.

Yes.. what you have is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Revival