Turks = Mongoloid mixed DNA shows

[ButlerKing]

There is no pure Turks except for some Yakuts who are pure mongoloids. Even among Anatolian Turks there is no people who who is pure Caucasoid this seems to suggest Turks were most likely mongoloid or predominately mongoloid, they had to be mixed at least and later conquered Central Asia and mixed with Iranics but the majority of the population were still predominately Iranic with some who were Mongoloid mixed. Later, the Mongol invasion of Central Asia changed the demographic of Central Asian people.


Each line represents a individual sample admixture.

http://i48.tinypic.com/14y4i0.png
http://i50.tinypic.com/2inluu.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Yes most likely the original Turks were slightly more Mongoloid than Caucasoid. Though they were mixed race people at the start.

[Nurzat]

actually from the graphs you posted results turks are anatolian, caucasian and near eastern for the most... and they do have a bit of east asian/central asian in them, much more than any europeans on average, but still not an important percentage...

of course, some turks, especially tatars immigrated a few generations ago, score much higher mongoloid than the ordinary anatolian turks

[ButlerKing]

actually from the graphs you posted results turks are anatolian, caucasian and near eastern for the most... and they do have a bit of east asian/central asian in them, much more than any europeans on average, but still not an important percentage...

of course, some turks, especially tatars immigrated a few generations ago, score much higher mongoloid than the ordinary anatolian turks

23.5% of Turkmen from Turkmenistan are 27.5% to 31% Mongoloid



Of course I know Turkish turks are anatolians but every sample shows they have little input of 6,8% East Asian and Siberian DNA and some can go 9-15%. I doubt the Tatars intermarried with millions of Turks, most likely from the Seljuks who were hybrid of mongoloid and came from Kazakhstan and they were Oghuz speakers.

The Turkmens today are Oghuz speakers but there most likely mixture of the Seljuks Turks who were hybrid Mongoloid and mixed with the ancient Iranic people of Turkmenistan.

There are 3 types of Turkmens today

The ones in Afghan, Pakistan who look predominately mongoloid
The ones in Iraq who looks like Arabs caucasoid
The ones in Turkmenistan are like 16-18% mongoloid on average but almost 1/4 of them are also 26 - 33% Mongoloid.

I'm willing to bet this is what the original Seljuks look like
(from Turkmenistan and from Afghan)

http://www.stantours.com/pics/tm_gal_peo_bek_girls_00.gif
http://www.rescue.org/sites/default/files/photo-essays/bbc2.jpg

While these Turkmen types are Turkcized Arabs and Iranic with small admix
( From Iraq and Turkmenistan)

http://iraqslogger.powweb.com/images_full_column/72977829.jpg
http://turkmen.traveler.uz/images/albums/Faces/women.jpg



Interesting. I wonder how genetics of Turks correlate with those of Latinos. After all, we are also a mixture between mongoloid and european peoples.

One must understand the difference between a neo-mongoloid and Proto-mongoloid. Neo-Mongoloid are Asians, Eskimo, Inuit ( and some Amazonian forest tribes like in Brazil and Peru) while most Native Americans are Proto-mongoloid.

Nepal are mixture of Mongoloid and Indo-Europeans but the people of North Indian look nothing like modern Europeans.

Latin Americans are mixture of these
http://www.south-images.com/ecuador/amerindians-1706.jpg

+



http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6j4b1mghV1rsjmxwo1_1280.jpg


While central Asians are mixture of these

http://www.globalenvision.org/files/tajik%20woman%20and%20baby.jpg

+

http://cdn.videos.bloomberg.com/t3M2tzNTowYY51tQRVl3SzFrdSmJ1_DZ/0zI0bjTEn-ag9w835iMDoxOm1qO4kO9D




The results for Kayseri were similar to results for Istanbul. These results suggest that Turkmens of Turkmenistan are fundamentally West Asian genetically and similar to Turks of Turkey. Furthermore the Siberian genetic content in Turkmens and Turks of Turkey are comparable suggesting a significant Turkmen influx into Anatolia if indeed the source population of Turks of Turkey were Turkmens of Seljuqs.

http://i50.tinypic.com/qn75hy.png
Turks' Anatolian neighbors/relatives Armenians and Greeks lack Siberian and East Asian genes all together. Depending on the source population of Turks of Anatolia this suggests a significant Turkmen population must have migrated to Anatolia to have passed on these Siberian and East Asian segments to the current Turkish population. If that source population is Turkmens of Turkmenistan then Anatolia must have received a Turkoman migrant population approximately equal to its original population size.

Oh come on, if you want to put like this than even Kurds and Armenians descent from Turkmen.

Here is the facial reconstruction of a Oghuz turk. The ANCESTOR of the turkmen and he was from Kazakhstan.


OGHUZ TURKS ( Russian translation )

Oghuz from Western + Southern Kazakhstan.

Among the Oghuz (mainly in the steppe zone of their resettlement) dominated Mongoloid racial type. "They - wrote about the Aral Oghuz in the tenth century. Al-Masudi, - most of undersized (Turks) and they have very small eyes" [11]. Other medieval authors note poorly defined vegetation on the face and body and Ploskonos Oguz. All of this suggests Mongoloid features that were characteristic of the bulk predominantly steppe Oguz [12].

http://i45.tinypic.com/zmf75y.jpg

[Onur]

There is no pure Turks accept for some Yakuts who are pure mongoloids.
Here we go again!

What makes you think like Yakuts are pure Turks? Is it only because they are pure mongoloid? Show me a proof for your claim of "Turks=Pure Mongoloids".

Also, Turks was never some kind of Amazon forest tribe who interbreeds within each other and living isolated from others. So, there was no such a thing as "Pure Turk", never been throughout history.

[Nurzat]

turks are however more turkic genetically than hungarians are fenno-ugric, but still, they are most probably only the old anatolians that were linguistically assimilated by the much smaller group or original turks

turks are mediterranean and west asian in culture, not central asian and steppe-like

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Butlerking ,can you make something new for example compare modern English with medieval Anglosaksons and show us how pure they are ATM ,as a nation found an empire their DNA must be very diverce by now ..


tschort

east asian

你在開玩笑嗎？

(are you kidding)

[Su]

turks are however more turkic genetically than hungarians are fenno-ugric, but still, they are most probably only the old anatolians that were linguistically assimilated by the much smaller group or original turks

turks are mediterranean and east asian in culture, not central asian and steppe-like

Well I disagree with this above statement, we got common things with Central Asians than let's say Chinese people who happen to be East Asians.

[pinguino]

Interesting. I wonder how genetics of Turks correlate with those of Latinos. After all, we are also a mixture between mongoloid and european peoples.

[Pecheneg]

There is no pure Turks accept for some Yakuts who are pure mongoloids. Even among Anatolian Turks there is no people who who is pure Caucasoid this seems to suggest Turks were most likely mongoloid or predominately mongoloid, they had to be mixed at least.

There is no pure Indo-Europeans either. Eastern Slavs are probably the most original indo-european influenced (genetically) peoples though.


as for your people, armenians; do you think they are indo-europeans genetically?
no butthurtking, i don't think so. your people adopted an indo-european language, that's all.





Of course I know Turkish turks are anatolians but every sample shows they have little input of 6,8% East Asian and Siberian DNA and some can go 9%. I doubt the Tatars intermarried with millions of Turks, most likely from the Seljuks who were hybrid of mongoloid and came from Kazakhstan and they were Oghuz speakers.
Not exactly.
They didn't come directly from Kazakhstan, but rather Khorasan.
http://i48.tinypic.com/i1beoo.jpg


compare anatolian Turks to central asian Turkmens;


Turks of Turkey speak an Oghuz dialect of Turkic languages. The other major Turkic groups speaking Oghuz include Azeri Turks of Azerbaijan and Iran as well as Turkmens of Turkmenistan.
Recent analysis by Hodoğlugil & Mahley (2012) has compared genetic samples from three Turkish locations, Aydin, Istanbul and Kayseri, with those of Krygyz genetic samples. Dienekes, within the context of the Dodecad project [5] , has compared autosomal genes of Turkish samples with those of Turkmen samples from the Yunusbayev study. [6]
http://i50.tinypic.com/qn75hy.png
The results for Kayseri were similar to results for Istanbul. These results suggest that Turkmens of Turkmenistan are fundamentally West Asian genetically and similar to Turks of Turkey. Furthermore the Siberian genetic content in Turkmens and Turks of Turkey are comparable suggesting a significant Turkmen influx into Anatolia if indeed the source population of Turks of Turkey were Turkmens of Seljuqs.
Turks' Anatolian neighbors/relatives Armenians and Greeks lack Siberian and East Asian genes all together. Depending on the source population of Turks of Anatolia this suggests a significant Turkmen population must have migrated to Anatolia to have passed on these Siberian and East Asian segments to the current Turkish population. If that source population is Turkmens of Turkmenistan then Anatolia must have received a Turkoman migrant population approximately equal to its original population size.


^ Comas, M.C.; Sánchez-Gómez, M.; Cornen, G.; de Kaenel, E (1996). Serpentinized peridotite breccia and olistostrome on basement highs of the Iberia Abyssal Plain: implications for tectonic margin evolution. 149. doi:10.2973/odp.proc.sr.149.228.1996.
^ Martin Richards, Vincent Macaulay, Eileen Hickey, Emilce Vega, Bryan Sykes, Valentina Guida, Chiara Rengo, Daniele Sellitto, Fulvio Cruciani, Toomas Kivisild, Richard Villems, Mark Thomas, Serge Rychkov, Oksana Rychkov, Yuri Rychkov, Mukaddes Gölge, Dimitar Dimitrov, Emmeline Hill11, Dan Bradley, Valentino Romano, Francesco Calì, Giuseppe Vona, Andrew Demaine, Surinder Papiha, Costas Triantaphyllidis, Gheorghe Stefanescu, Jiři Hatina, Michele Belledi, Anna Di Rienzo, Andrea Novelletto, Ariella Oppenheim, Søren Nørby, Nadia Al-Zaheri, Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti, Rosaria Scozzari, Antonio Torroni, and Hans-Jürgen Bandelt (November 2000). "Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool". American Journal of Human Genetics 67 (5): 1251–1276. doi:10.1016/S0002-9297(07)62954-1. PMC 1288566. PMID 11032788.











There are 3 types of Turkmens today

The ones in Afghan, Pakistan who look predominately mongoloid
The ones in Iraq who looks like Arabs caucasoid
The ones in Turkmenistan are like 16-18% mongoloid on average

The Turkmens arrived in Afghanistan as refugees in the 1920s and 1930s along with many thousands of Uzbeks, to escape repression by the Soviets.

as for Turkmens of Pakistan;

There are over 60,000 people of Turkmen ethnicity living in Pakistan, according to both UN and national estimates. They are predominately refugees who fled from Turkmenistan to Afghanistan in the aftermath of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution and then from Afghanistan to neighbouring Pakistan following the instability during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.









I'm willing to bet this is what the original Seljuks look like
(from Turkmenistan and from Afghan)

http://www.stantours.com/pics/tm_gal_peo_bek_girls_00.gif
These are Turkmens of Turkmenistan you idiot.
link (http://www.google.com.tr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stantours.com/pics/tm_gal_peo_bek_girls_00.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.stantours.com/gallery/tm_gal_peo_bek_00.html&usg=__G48WYeGncruKCbiIvtQyWI6c_30=&h=371&w=400&sz=62&hl=tr&start=2&zoom=1&tbnid=WqPdvyBazw1pSM:&tbnh=140&tbnw=151&ei=1S-7UM3FD4314QT544CQDg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dturkmenistan%2Bpeople%26hl%3Dtr%26sa% 3DX%26tbo%3Dd%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D634%26tbs%3Dsim g:CAQSZRpjCxCo1NgEGgIIAQwLELCMpwgaPAo6CAESFJwDlwWW BZgFvQO8BNoDvgSbA8AEGiCmq22WPKBURcAqSLe9W3ZVlV2pTo J5kr_10SnzqhdyqfwwLEI6u_1ggaCgoICAESBCJFWtEM%26tbm %3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=131&vpy=149&dur=2423&hovh=216&hovw=233&tx=119&ty=104&sig=110291226889707210221&page=1&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:59)







While these Turkmen types are Turkcized Arabs and Iranic with small admix
( From Iraq and Turkmenistan)

http://iraqslogger.powweb.com/images_full_column/72977829.jpg
http://turkmen.traveler.uz/images/albums/Faces/women.jpg




http://turkmen.traveler.uz/images/albums/Faces/women.jpg
http://www.stantours.com/pics/tm_gal_peo_bek_girls_00.gif

These people in 2 pictures are same people(Turkmens) from same country(Turkmenistan). :picard1:










This is also your thread in ABF
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/printthread.php?t=37808&pp=10

don't you have a life, pathetic armenian?








turks are however more turkic genetically than hungarians are fenno-ugric, but still, they are most probably only the old anatolians that were linguistically assimilated by the much smaller group or original turks

Dna doesn't say so



Turks of Turkey speak an Oghuz dialect of Turkic languages. The other major Turkic groups speaking Oghuz include Azeri Turks of Azerbaijan and Iran as well as Turkmens of Turkmenistan.
Recent analysis by Hodoğlugil & Mahley (2012) has compared genetic samples from three Turkish locations, Aydin, Istanbul and Kayseri, with those of Krygyz genetic samples. Dienekes, within the context of the Dodecad project [5] , has compared autosomal genes of Turkish samples with those of Turkmen samples from the Yunusbayev study. [6]
http://i50.tinypic.com/qn75hy.png
The results for Kayseri were similar to results for Istanbul. These results suggest that Turkmens of Turkmenistan are fundamentally West Asian genetically and similar to Turks of Turkey. Furthermore the Siberian genetic content in Turkmens and Turks of Turkey are comparable suggesting a significant Turkmen influx into Anatolia if indeed the source population of Turks of Turkey were Turkmens of Seljuqs.
Turks' Anatolian neighbors/relatives Armenians and Greeks lack Siberian and East Asian genes all together. Depending on the source population of Turks of Anatolia this suggests a significant Turkmen population must have migrated to Anatolia to have passed on these Siberian and East Asian segments to the current Turkish population. If that source population is Turkmens of Turkmenistan then Anatolia must have received a Turkoman migrant population approximately equal to its original population size.





turks are mediterranean and east asian in culture, not central asian and steppe-like

it's actually "central asian + anatolian" culture.

[Corvus]

What`s bad about Mongolian admixture. Actually this is one of the best things which can happen to you. I am Central European but I have it as well.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Nothing ,I love Mongolians everybody knows ..But all these theories about how anchient Turks looked like ,are using distant tribes like Yakuts as proxy of Modern people, this is not very scientific.

[evon]

Nothing new here, but using terminology such as pure and not pure ect is misguided, but i understand what you mean, you are using Yakuts are a proxy for point of origin, which i can understand, but its not completely right, the "Turkic element" here would be North Eurasian, but it is not a binding ancestral component that shows recent ancestry in common, this is why admixture results alone is often misguiding, you need to compliment them with segment matches across populations.

the North Eurasian component is also very old, found from Europe all the way around into Native Americans. the more intriguing find is the presence of East Asian among the various peoples, which represents a form of Chinese presence in this case..

Eurogenes will publish a complete Turkic analysis, hopefully before Christmas, but more likely at the start of January.

Now in the mean while you can use the new ancestry painting 2 that is coming out on Thursday (US Time), a little tweety bird told me that Turks come out as mostly Middle eastern there, it will be fun to analyse the data ones it is released...

[Nurzat]

Well I disagree with this above statement, we got common things with Central Asians than let's say Chinese people who happen to be East Asians.

it was obviously a typo, smartass. i was saying you are east mediterranean and west asian/caucasian/near eastern. nothing central asian or steppe-like about you turks

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

You guys have no life .How many threads about Turks admixture already ..We know what we are and your repeatative and baseless theories have no meaning than political propaganda and desinformation.

Basicly you have an agenda ..wasting your time on forums to spread your lies ,hoping ,enough repated they would replace with truth ?

BONES FROM GRAVES TELL NO LIES,WE WILL SEE..

[Pecheneg]

it was obviously a typo, smartass. i was saying you are east mediterranean and west asian/caucasian/near eastern. nothing central asian or steppe-like about you turks

What do you know about Turkish culture except assumptions in anthropology forums dumbass?

[evon]

it was obviously a typo, smartass. i was saying you are east mediterranean and west asian/caucasian/near eastern. nothing central asian or steppe-like about you turks

This is wrong, there is North Asian (North Eurasian) ancestry in modern Turks, and some have "recent" ties to central Asia (Turkmens), but the North Eurasian component is lower % then many Turks like to admit versus other components..

[ButlerKing]

Interesting. I wonder how genetics of Turks correlate with those of Latinos. After all, we are also a mixture between mongoloid and european peoples.


No No No.... they are different

Latinos are mixture of Proto-Mongoloid and Indo-Europeans. Some or a small percentage of South American Indians may look Mongolian, Chinese, filipino but the vast majority don't.

The type of Mongoloid Latino mixed with is these types
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01247/woman-baby_1247989i.jpg
http://www.amazon-indians.org/mayoruna-matses-indians.jpg


The type of Mongoloid Central Asians mixed with is these types

http://www.gwpvx.com/images/9/98/Mongolians.jpg
http://everystockphoto.s3.amazonaws.com/mongolians_mongolianos_755422_l.jpg

[Nurzat]

turks are utterly anatolo-armenid, racially and genetically

culturally, they're east mediterranean / west asian. there's nothing steppe-like in them. they only share language and some ancestors, yes, but few ancestors, that few that they have only a very small amount of steppe genes in them, except those stemming from last century pontic tatar/central asian immigrants

[Nurzat]

if we were to plot results on eurogenes-like maps, turks would be closer to arabs and other near easterners than to central asian tukics like kyrgyz, kazakh, uzbek... (although uzbeks and turkmens were in the persian region of influence and had population inflow from the south...)

[Su]

turks are utterly anatolo-armenid, racially


I dont like crushing your dreams but most of Turks are not Armenoids, on average we got rather round or roundish faces with small or smallish eyes that can be also wide-set with shorter or medium height noses that are broad. Basically completely the opposite side of Armenoids :rolleyes:

Some examples:

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/guess04.png
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/guess05.png
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/guess06.png

[evon]

turks are utterly anatolo-armenid, racially and genetically

culturally, they're east mediterranean / west asian. there's nothing steppe-like in them. they only share language and some ancestors, yes, but few ancestors, that few that they have only a very small amount of steppe genes in them, except those stemming from last century pontic tatar/central asian immigrants

I dont like the terminology racially, its so inflexible and psudo-scientific...but i understand what you mean, you are talking about ancestral components..but they are not the same as Armenians, but its probably one of their closest populations yes, essentially Brother's in blood.

culturally i agree, they are middle eastern, religious also, but most day to day Turks i have spoken to know all this, only the most extreme whom seem to be over-represented on this forum say otherwise..

[ButlerKing]

There is no pure Indo-Europeans either. Eastern Slavs are probably the most original indo-european influenced (genetically) peoples though.


as for your people, armenians; do you think they are indo-europeans genetically?
no butthurtking, i don't think so. your people adopted an indo-european language, that's all.

This has nothing to do with me, I'm not Armenian.




Not exactly.
They didn't come directly from Kazakhstan, but rather Khorasan.
http://i48.tinypic.com/i1beoo.jpg

The Ohguz migrated from Kazakhstan to modern Turkmenistan.

http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/file/view/642px-Seljuk_Empire_locator_map_svg.png/55968476/642px-Seljuk_Empire_locator_map_svg.png




compare anatolian Turks to central asian Turkmens;



^ Comas, M.C.; Sánchez-Gómez, M.; Cornen, G.; de Kaenel, E (1996). Serpentinized peridotite breccia and olistostrome on basement highs of the Iberia Abyssal Plain: implications for tectonic margin evolution. 149. doi:10.2973/odp.proc.sr.149.228.1996.
^ Martin Richards, Vincent Macaulay, Eileen Hickey, Emilce Vega, Bryan Sykes, Valentina Guida, Chiara Rengo, Daniele Sellitto, Fulvio Cruciani, Toomas Kivisild, Richard Villems, Mark Thomas, Serge Rychkov, Oksana Rychkov, Yuri Rychkov, Mukaddes Gölge, Dimitar Dimitrov, Emmeline Hill11, Dan Bradley, Valentino Romano, Francesco Calì, Giuseppe Vona, Andrew Demaine, Surinder Papiha, Costas Triantaphyllidis, Gheorghe Stefanescu, Jiři Hatina, Michele Belledi, Anna Di Rienzo, Andrea Novelletto, Ariella Oppenheim, Søren Nørby, Nadia Al-Zaheri, Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti, Rosaria Scozzari, Antonio Torroni, and Hans-Jürgen Bandelt (November 2000). "Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool". American Journal of Human Genetics 67 (5): 1251–1276. doi:10.1016/S0002-9297(07)62954-1. PMC 1288566. PMID 11032788.

I didn't know Turks from Adyn were much more mongoloid, this again proves that Turks must have been much more mongoloid than before, especially much more than Turkmenistan ones.




The Turkmens arrived in Afghanistan as refugees in the 1920s and 1930s along with many thousands of Uzbeks, to escape repression by the Soviets.

Just because some thousands arrived in Afghanistan as refugees doesn't mean most of it's population are.









These are Turkmens of Turkmenistan you idiot.
link (http://www.google.com.tr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stantours.com/pics/tm_gal_peo_bek_girls_00.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.stantours.com/gallery/tm_gal_peo_bek_00.html&usg=__G48WYeGncruKCbiIvtQyWI6c_30=&h=371&w=400&sz=62&hl=tr&start=2&zoom=1&tbnid=WqPdvyBazw1pSM:&tbnh=140&tbnw=151&ei=1S-7UM3FD4314QT544CQDg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dturkmenistan%2Bpeople%26hl%3Dtr%26sa% 3DX%26tbo%3Dd%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D634%26tbs%3Dsim g:CAQSZRpjCxCo1NgEGgIIAQwLELCMpwgaPAo6CAESFJwDlwWW BZgFvQO8BNoDvgSbA8AEGiCmq22WPKBURcAqSLe9W3ZVlV2pTo J5kr_10SnzqhdyqfwwLEI6u_1ggaCgoICAESBCJFWtEM%26tbm %3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=131&vpy=149&dur=2423&hovh=216&hovw=233&tx=119&ty=104&sig=110291226889707210221&page=1&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:59)




BRAVO that is exactly the point I wanted to made. Why did you think I mentioned they were from Turkmenistan in brackets?


The point of these pictures is to show there are two different types of Turkmen. The ones that look more Mongoloid and the ones that look more caucasoid, including the ones hat look mixed.






http://turkmen.traveler.uz/images/albums/Faces/women.jpg
http://www.stantours.com/pics/tm_gal_peo_bek_girls_00.gif

These people in 2 pictures are same people(Turkmens) from same country(Turkmenistan). :picard1:

Trust me I know, it was the point I wanted to make.

[Pecheneg]

turks are utterly anatolo-armenid, racially and genetically

culturally, they're east mediterranean / west asian. there's nothing steppe-like in them. they only share language and some ancestors, yes, but few ancestors, that few that they have only a very small amount of steppe genes in them, except those stemming from last century pontic tatar/central asian immigrants
Very small my ass. This is your wishful thinking.
Many genetic studies show 30-40% central asian (Turkmen) admixture in Turks.
One of the latest studies;

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/11/rolloff-and-alder-analysis-of-turks.html
rolloff and ALDER analysis of Turks

29.8 +/- 4.0% central asian admixture which means (26-34%).

[ButlerKing]

Very small my ass. This is your wishful thinking.
Many genetic studies show 30-40% central asian (Turkmen) admixture in Turks.
One of the latest studies;

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/11/rolloff-and-alder-analysis-of-turks.html
rolloff and ALDER analysis of Turks

29.8 +/- 4.0% central asian admixture which means (26-34%).

Most studies shows Turkish people have little central Asian admixture even Turkish scientists themselves claimed this.

[Pecheneg]

This has nothing to do with me, I'm not Armenian.
oh yes you are an armenian.







Just because some thousands arrived in Afghanistan as refugees doesn't mean most of it's population are.

Most of the Turkmens (if not all) in Afghanistan and Pakistan are refugees from Turkmenistan. So stfu.

[ButlerKing]

Most of the Turkmens (if not all) in Afghanistan and Pakistan are refugees from Turkmenistan. So stfu.

Really now there was in 1071, the Seljuks established an empire centered in Anatolia and stretching to present-day Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

[Pecheneg]

Really now there was in 1071, the Seljuks established an empire centered in Anatolia and stretching to present-day Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
So what?
It still doesn't change the fact that you are a butthurt armenian who creates these threads whenever your hemorrhoid begins to hurt. ;)

[ButlerKing]

Ahh... speaking of Armenians, you do realize how genetically Turkish are even more closer to Armenians and Kurds than Turkmen? don't believe? wait 5 minutes I'll show you something...

[Pecheneg]

an armenian pretends to be british-irish, what a loser. :laugh:
http://i50.tinypic.com/168euyq.png

[ButlerKing]

That took longer than expected, sorry about that.

Anyway you claimed Turkish are genetically very close to Turkmen and the fact their autosomal DNA is similar shows Turkish have ancestry from Turkmen but how come than Armenians and Kurds have almost the same amount of dark blue, light blue and gray components while Turkmen have much more green component and less dark blue and light blue component than Turkish? Turkmen have 2x the mongoloid but some have 4x the mongoloid component


( This is from same graph on my first post )
http://i49.tinypic.com/v5a6uh.png




http://i50.tinypic.com/qn75hy.png

[Englisc]

In a previous post I summarized extensive evidence by myself and Turkish researchers to the effect that modern Turks are about 1/7 descended from Central Asian Turkic speakers, and 6/7 from pre-Turkic West Asians.

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/central-asian-element-in-turks-part-3.html

[Pecheneg]

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/central-asian-element-in-turks-part-3.html
the same greek guy (dienekes) says Turks are genetically 1/3 central asian in his latest studies. How about that??

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/11/rolloff-and-alder-analysis-of-turks.html

,

and here is a comparison of Turks and Turks' closest relatives "central asian Turkmens" for the 100th time!



Turks of Turkey speak an Oghuz dialect of Turkic languages. The other major Turkic groups speaking Oghuz include Azeri Turks of Azerbaijan and Iran as well as Turkmens of Turkmenistan.
Recent analysis by Hodoğlugil & Mahley (2012) has compared genetic samples from three Turkish locations, Aydin, Istanbul and Kayseri, with those of Krygyz genetic samples. Dienekes, within the context of the Dodecad project [5] , has compared autosomal genes of Turkish samples with those of Turkmen samples from the Yunusbayev study. [6]
http://i50.tinypic.com/qn75hy.png
The results for Kayseri were similar to results for Istanbul. These results suggest that Turkmens of Turkmenistan are fundamentally West Asian genetically and similar to Turks of Turkey. Furthermore the Siberian genetic content in Turkmens and Turks of Turkey are comparable suggesting a significant Turkmen influx into Anatolia if indeed the source population of Turks of Turkey were Turkmens of Seljuqs.
Turks' Anatolian neighbors/relatives Armenians and Greeks lack Siberian and East Asian genes all together. Depending on the source population of Turks of Anatolia this suggests a significant Turkmen population must have migrated to Anatolia to have passed on these Siberian and East Asian segments to the current Turkish population. If that source population is Turkmens of Turkmenistan then Anatolia must have received a Turkoman migrant population approximately equal to its original population size.

[ButlerKing]

the same greek guy (dienekes) says turks are genetically 1/3 central asian in his latest studies. How about that??

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/11/rolloff-and-alder-analysis-of-turks.html

,

and here is a comparison of turks and turks' closest relatives "central asian turkmens" for the 100th time!


There not exactly the same and in fact Armenians are even closer to Turkish.

From the table.

Turkmen have 8.5% more west Asian than Turkish people
Turkmen have 8 - 9% more South Asian than Turkish people.

Turkish have 6.5 - 14% more atlantic baltic than Turkmen
Turkish have 7.5 - 8% more Southern than Turkmen

If we calculate it there is 30.2 - 39% genetic difference and that is not including the Mongoloid admixture.

[Sky earth]

There not exactly the same and in fact Armenians are even closer to Turkish.

From the table.

Turkmen have 8.5% more west Asian than Turkish people
Turkmen have 8 - 9% more South Asian than Turkish people.

Turkish have 6.5 - 14% more atlantic baltic than Turkmen
Turkish have 7.5 - 8% more Southern than Turkmen

If we calculate it there is 30.2 - 39% genetic difference and that is not including the Mongoloid admixture.


Why are you so obssesed with the genetics of Turkic people? Every Thread from you is about the mongoloid admixture of Turkic people and Turkic people general. It is unknown how the first Turkic people look like. They could be either mongoloid or caucasoid. I for my part think that the first Turkic peoples were a Caucasoid and Mongoloid mix from the beginn but who knows? And if the first Turkic peoples were mongoloid, I would not find it bad, because our connection consists of our language and culture not or race.

[archangel]

troll thread next please...

[Onur]

Why are you so obssesed with the genetics of Turkic people? Every Thread from you is about the mongoloid admixture of Turkic people and Turkic people general.
Because he is an Armenian. Having an obsession about Turks is a defining character of the Armenians.



Dienekes is biased and is known of his attempts to distance his people genetically from the Anatolian Turks.
Afaik, he is from Anatolia himself, probably had Turkish speaking grandparents. So we see another case of Turkish obsession just like the Armenian guy here.

Their case is pathological because their ancestral story totally contradicts with their current national mindset. Having only Turkish speaking grandparents while claiming to be super hellenes must be the reason of their trauma. Thats why they are obsessed with trying to prove non-turkishness of the Turks with their fantasy theories. As you know, we also frequently observe the same sickness with the neo-Greeks who has Albanian speaking grandparents.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

So Greeks have 0.2 East Asian admixture ? How cute :P
konichiwa komşu :)

[Just90]

If Turks are mixed and not " pure "
Why do they critiqued people from South America and other mixed places and see them as lower ?

Seems like double standard and hypocritical

Anyways in America , we don't think much of turks but just some country in Asia

I'm juts pointing out the obvious in all these forums

[Pecheneg]

If Turks are mixed and not " pure "
Why do they critiqued people from South America and other mixed places and see them as lower ?
Who says that we see them as lower? :confused:

[Just90]

Who says that we see them as lower? :confused:

Every time I go in like forums . I always see Turks talking bad about mixed people
Specially people from South America or even Americans

So as an American , I am very confuse too

I don't post a lot , but I've been here since July and I have notice this quiet often

Like it seems its acceptable for people in the old world to be mixed

But ppl from the new world ; no , and they are seen as like inferior idk

[Pecheneg]

Every time I go in like forums . I always see Turks talking bad about mixed people
Specially people from South America or even Americans
Nonsense, i've never seen a single Turk who talks bad about them. Besides almost all nations are mixed to some degree since neolithic era. We don't live as isolated tribes anymore.



So Greeks have 0.2 East Asian admixture ? How cute :P
konichiwa komşu :)

Turkopoles (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50243) :cool:

[pinguino]

No No No.... they are different

Latinos are mixture of Proto-Mongoloid and Indo-Europeans. Some or a small percentage of South American Indians may look Mongolian, Chinese, filipino but the vast majority don't.



Nonsense. Amazonians aren't the only phenotype of Amerindian at all.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

They are annoyed because seems like we committed big sin in steps not practising race discrimination and mixed yellow people with whites :D

It was not only Chinese Wall ,we (Turkic and Mongol people ) took down ,we also crushed the race wall too ...

How can they expect nature worshipping people care about race ?

"Ok These people have different color of skin and eyes do not ally with them....Let's ignore them never mix with them " in steps ?

lol we even didn't have cities, how can we keep ourselves isolated from other races..obviously no one cared these petty things.
its really funny:)

[kabeiros]

[QUOTE=Pecheneg;1198906Turkopoles (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50243) :cool:[/QUOTE]

If we are Turks because of 0.5 total Mongoloid admixture which is one of the lowest scores across Europe, what about the huge percentage of Atalantic-Baltic and Southern that you've got from us? Are you butthurt Turkified Greeks, Armenians, Albanians and Bosnians?

[evon]

They are annoyed because seems like we committed big sin in steps not practising race discrimination and mixed yellow people with whites :D

It was not only Chinese Wall ,we (Turkic and Mongol people ) took down ,we also crushed the race wall too ...

How can they expect nature worshipping people care about race ?

"Ok These people have different color of skin and eyes do not ally with them....Let's ignore them never mix with them " in steps ?

lol we even didn't have cities, how can we keep ourselves isolated from other races..obviously no one cared these petty things.
its really funny:)

Actually here you are quite wrong on a few things that i can see at least, we know that peoples in steppe socities too had a ethnic and social ladder of sorts, the most visible of this i seen in the white and black bone ideas that was "abolished" by Chingis khan upon his victory over the various peoples.

The by far biggest reason for ethnic inter-mixing in the steppe seems to have been due to two things, ransom brides and taking slaves.

These societies were harsh in general, and very brutal towards anyone outside the group. Making the steppe culture into something of a "noble savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage)" as you do is nonsense, and not rooted in history, i guess the problem for this lies in the arabic admiration for Turkic speaking peoples nomad culture in central asia during the early caliphate, they created a fable of a noble savage, in short they saw what they wanted to see, created something that was similar to their own nomadic history as Bedouin, whom they saw as pure and not corrupted by the sedentary life. But they forgot to mention the punishment for simple crimes that led to one getting his nose cut off, and so on...

I dont think you will find many noble cultures as you profess, you sound like contemporary Americans who admire the native americans of old as noble savages, while forgetting that most native american cultures were brutal and lived by a harsh rule of law..

[Pecheneg]

If we are Turks because of 0.5 total Mongoloid admixture which is one of the lowest scores across Europe, what about the huge percentage of Atalantic-Baltic and Southern that you've got from us? Are you butthurt Turkified Greeks, Armenians, Albanians and Bosnians?


I was kidding actually, to drive butthurts like you crazy.

"Atlantic_Baltic" and "Southern" components of Turks have nothing to do with Greeks you dumb. Even Turkmens in Central Asia score "atlantic_baltic" and "southern", besides pre-Turkic anatolia already had good amount of "southern".

globe 10 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGR2ZWRoQ0VaWTc0dlV1cHh4ZUNJR UE#gid=17)


Turkmens
12.9% atlantic_baltic
16.2% southern

[Su]

Guys, dont insult each other, yeah we Turks got many different sort of admixtures and in fact usually our DNA analyzes look colourful and that makes us again unique :D

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

More blah blah from sedantery savage

Yeah ofcourse ,comparing with Indian history ,a group of people exiling another ,practising race discrimination,cast system , I am ofcourse rightfully admire my beloved Altaic people and I dont care what a wannabe Eurasian think about that..You can debate till Siberia becomes tropic.

[evon]

More blah blah from sedantery savage

Yeah ofcourse ,comparing with I Indian history ,a group of people exiling another ,practising race discrimination,cast system , I am ofcourse rightfully admire my beloved Altaic people and I dont care what a wannabe Eurasian think about that..

You are probably just as sedentary as any other forum member :picard1:

I wish you would pick up a history book every now and then, read about the steppe peoples you talk about, if you are going to admire anyone, at least get your facts right...professing a sort of noble savage with ideas of multiculturalism sounds like the worst Disney slash Pocahontas propaganda ive seen in ages...

this kind of logic:

TkV-of_eN2w

:picard1:

[Loki]

orangepulp's aunt is Turkish but she has zero Mongoloid admixture.

[Corvus]

If Turks are mixed and not " pure "
Why do they critiqued people from South America and other mixed places and see them as lower ?

Seems like double standard and hypocritical

Anyways in America , we don't think much of turks but just some country in Asia

I'm juts pointing out the obvious in all these forums

I have never seen a Turk looking down on South Americans on this site, so I think this is a slight misperception

[Pecheneg]

orangepulp's aunt is Turkish but she has zero Mongoloid admixture.

It must have something to do with new calculating stuff.
But ofcourse there are some Turks who score 5-10% or even 10-15% and some who score 0-5% mongoloid, it depends on the region. Average Turk seem to have ~7%.

[Onur]

This "Turks=Mongoloid" motto among the so-called internet genetics specialists is so stupid. Most Turks have 5-7% mongoloid mixture but this is not something required, nor a must for a Turkish person.

Even 3 out of 10 mummies from Hun graveyards indicates mongoloid DNA, the rest of them does not. So why mongoloid mixture should be something necessary for the Turks of 2013?

[Pecheneg]

In general Turks from Anatolia are Caucaso-Anatolian + Balkan, Semite, Persian & minor SSA.


/Tinfoil hat on.

Like you nordicist sheeptard know something about Turkish genetic.


albanians = e3bhiopian men + local wog balkan women+ slavic rapists from north. How about this one?

[orangepulp]

orangepulp's aunt is Turkish but she has zero Mongoloid admixture.

We don't know that yet because 23andme's ancestry composition isn't really at its best state. Maybe she may score 0-3% Asian with amateur projects, I don't know?

[Su]

In general Turks from Anatolia are Caucaso-Anatolian + Balkan, Semite, Kurds, Persian & minor SSA.


/Tinfoil hat on.

Couldn't resist :laugh:

http://bigrab.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[Partizan]

Whatever some superficial Moldovans, Turk hater biased Albanians or any other ignorant guys say. We Turks are definitely partially Mongoloid and proud.

My grandpa actually looks like twin brother of that Turkmen man:

http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/resources/ODonovanArticle/TurkmenMan.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/550463_115204041966607_950202935_n.jpg

http://d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net/image_cache/1321930167466447.jpg

[Loki]

orangepulp's family isn't. check her 23andme thread.

[kabeiros]

orangepulp's aunt is Turkish but she has zero Mongoloid admixture. he said that his aunt comes from NE Anatolia, so she could be Laz

[kabeiros]

And what is this Turk-Albanian conflict, I always thought of you as allies or at least friendly to each other :confused:

[evon]

We don't know that yet because 23andme's ancestry composition isn't really at its best state. Maybe she may score 0-3% Asian with amateur projects, I don't know?

I am sure she will get some Far Asian % when AC is tweaked better then its now, its no big deal anyways, its just one part of a very colourful ancestry :)

[Linet]

:popcorn:

[Loki]

And what is this Turk-Albanian conflict, I always thought of you as allies or at least friendly to each other :confused:

Albanians absolutely hate Turks.

[Loki]

I am sure she will get some Far Asian % when AC is tweaked better then its now, its no big deal anyways, its just one part of a very colourful ancestry :)

Again an assumption on your part. You have no evidence for that.

[evon]

Again an assumption on your part. You have no evidence for that.

Yes its an assuption that she will get far asian %, but not that AC will be tweaked, as we know they (23andme) are not 100% happy with it either and looking at the issues i encountered when i linked my maternal grandmother to her son via that tool i could see the issues involved, and also how it changed as a consequence of me giving 23andme more info of my uncle by linking him to my grandmother...

I have mentioned a similar problem on my blog;
My grandmothers Indian matched segment, whom on my grandmothers AC is a European segment, while on her Indian cousin is a South asian segment.. ect...so you see, AC is far from perfect.. but i doubt we will see a 10% ect increase, more likely we are talking 1-5% max...

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

You are probably just as sedentary as any other forum member :picard1:

I wish you would pick up a history book every now and then, read about the steppe peoples you talk about, if you are going to admire anyone, at least get your facts right...professing a sort of noble savage with ideas of multiculturalism sounds like the worst Disney slash Pocahontas propaganda ive seen in ages...

this kind of logic:

TkV-of_eN2w

:picard1:

I read history from our old sources, I don't need your Eurocentric nonsense..

[evon]

I read history from our old sources, I don't need your Eurocentric nonsense..

My point is precisely that your view is similar to Eurocentrism, though you sit on the other side, and so its called Occidentalism (though you are probabaly closer to Europe then Far Asian cultures in most matters anyways), as you talk about another culture through a glossy pair of glasses that are distorted by romanticism and "Turanist" ideas.

Reading old sources is erroneous if you dont know how to do it, take a cue from Gadamer:


Hans-Georg Gadamer's hermeneutics is a development of the hermeneutics of his teacher, Heidegger. Gadamer asserts that methodical contemplation is opposite to experience and reflection. We can reach the truth only by understanding or even mastering our experience. According to Gadamer, experience isn't fixed but rather changing and always indicating new perspectives. The most important thing is to unfold what constitutes individual comprehension. Gadamer points out in this context that prejudice is a (nonfixed) reflection of that unfolding comprehension, and is not per se without value. Being alien to a particular tradition is a condition of understanding. Gadamer points out that we can never step outside of our tradition; all we can do is try to understand it. This further elaborates the idea of the hermeneutic circle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

[el22]

Albanians absolutely hate Turks.

If with albanians you mean 5-6 people in TA then you might be right. If you said to albanians in real life that you hate greeks or serbs, most would disagree, but at least they wouldn't be surprised. But if you said that albanians hate anyone else (or love anyone but americans) they will give you a blank stare without understanding what you're talking about.

[pinguino]

It is curious but at least in my country, we don't have Turk immigrants at all. In Latin America we usually call "Turks" to immigrants from the former Ottoman Empire, who were mainly Arabs. Why Turks didn't migrate to Latin America in large numbers, like Arabs and others did?

[Loki]

Yes its an assuption that she will get far asian %, but not that AC will be tweaked, as we know they (23andme) are not 100% happy with it either and looking at the issues i encountered when i linked my maternal grandmother to her son via that tool i could see the issues involved, and also how it changed as a consequence of me giving 23andme more info of my uncle by linking him to my grandmother...

I have mentioned a similar problem on my blog;
My grandmothers Indian matched segment, whom on my grandmothers AC is a European segment, while on her Indian cousin is a South asian segment.. ect...so you see, AC is far from perfect.. but i doubt we will see a 10% ect increase, more likely we are talking 1-5% max...

Genetic analysis is not what we wish it to be, you're following the wrong approach.

Do you mean to tell me that it is impossible that some people in Anatolia were untouched by Mongoloid input?

I'm not talking about your family, but orangepulp. It's almost as if there is pressure on her to show Mongoloid admixture. If she doesn't then she can't possibly be a real Turk. She should correct it by marrying a Mongol, then the others will accept her. Ridiculous.

[Scholarios]

the Asian fetish among Turks seems to be growing all the time.

[Scholarios]

My point is precisely that your view is similar to Eurocentrism, though you sit on the other side, and so its called Occidentalism (though you are probabaly closer to Europe then Far Asian cultures in most matters anyways), as you talk about another culture through a glossy pair of glasses that are distorted by romanticism and "Turanist" ideas.

Reading old sources is erroneous if you dont know how to do it, take a cue from Gadamer:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics



This is exactly true. They can't understand that their Romantic Turanism is the epitome of Orientalism and Western Romantic ideas about "Noble Savage"

[Loki]

If with albanians you mean 5-6 people in TA then you might be right. If you said to albanians in real life that you hate greeks or serbs, most would disagree, but at least they wouldn't be surprised. But if you said that albanians hate anyone else (or love anyone but americans) they will give you a blank stare without understanding what you're talking about.

Then why are TA Albanians so hateful towards Turks? I mean, almost all of them. How about you?

[orangepulp]

I am sure she will get some Far Asian % when AC is tweaked better then its now, its no big deal anyways, its just one part of a very colourful ancestry :)
Maybe she won't or if she does it would for sure be less than the average Turkish Asian score. From what I have seen, North Eastern Turks can score 0% Asian, maximum Asian score I have seen is like 2% in that region. She is very matchy with the Georgians on 23andme.


he said that his aunt comes from NE Anatolia, so she could be Laz

We are not Laz. If my mothers side were Laz they would have known.

[Dengizik]

Then why are TA Albanians so hateful towards Turks? I mean, almost all of them. How about you?

They want to gain some european points by attacking and insulting Turks without reason.

[orangepulp]

Genetic analysis is not what we wish it to be, you're following the wrong approach.

Do you mean to tell me that it is impossible that some people in Anatolia were untouched by Mongoloid input?

I'm not talking about your family, but orangepulp. It's almost as if there is pressure on her to show Mongoloid admixture. If she doesn't then she can't possibly be a real Turk. She should correct it by marrying a Mongol, then the others will accept her. Ridiculous.

Actually none of the Turks judge a Turks Turkishness according to their DNA results or lack of mongoloid genes but I just find it a bit odd when the Asian and Turkic part is emphasized. Yes, I know there is a Turkic impact but why isn't the non-Turkic part equally emphasized as the Turkic part?

[Su]

Guys 23andme's analyze goes back to 500 years or? Normally I have got like 10 procent mongoloid and through dienekes projects and here I got like 0.6 or 0.7 procent just. That shows that its map as well as mongoloid admixture analyze sucks. Her raw data should be run by gedmatch then we will have more accurate results.

[Loki]

Guys 23andme's analyze goes back to 500 years or? Normally I have got like 10 procent mongoloid and through dienekes projects and here I got like 0.6 or 0.7 procent just. That shows that its map as well as mongoloid admixture analyze sucks. Her raw data should be run by gedmatch then we will have more accurate results.

Gedmatch would be good, but she can't access it in the UAE. I can offer to do it for you orangepulp.

[evon]

It is curious but at least in my country, we don't have Turk immigrants at all. In Latin America we usually call "Turks" to immigrants from the former Ottoman Empire, who were mainly Arabs. Why Turks didn't migrate to Latin America in large numbers, like Arabs and others did?

The Ottoman empire was very large, with huge differences in living standard among the various regions and ethnic groups, Anatolian based peoples such as Turks fared better then many other peoples whom lived in other regions, especially in the latter stage of the empire..


Genetic analysis is not what we wish it to be, you're following the wrong approach.

Do you mean to tell me that it is impossible that some people in Anatolia were untouched by Mongoloid input?

I'm not talking about your family, but orangepulp. It's almost as if there is pressure on her to show Mongoloid admixture. If she doesn't then she can't possibly be a real Turk. She should correct it by marrying a Mongol, then the others will accept her. Ridiculous.

No, its not what i am saying, what i am saying is that AC is not perfect, we know this because we can compare it with a set of other calculators out there, and the mean average between these calculators is a good indicator.

I dont think her "turkishness" would be seen as less by others, but there is surely a positive racism towards people whom have more far asian admixture, in DNA or phenotype..i have been debating this for years with various turkish forum users, so far most seem to not realize how this is not a good thing...



Maybe she won't or if she does it would for sure be less than the average Turkish Asian score. From what I have seen, North Eastern Turks can score 0% Asian, maximum Asian score I have seen is like 2% in that region. She is very matchy with the Georgians on 23andme.


Wait and see what her RF and AF results will be like...



Guys 23andme's analyze goes back to 500 years or? Normally I have got like 10 procent mongoloid and through dienekes projects and here I got like 0.6 or 0.7 procent just. That shows that its map as well as mongoloid admixture analyze sucks. Her raw data should be run by gedmatch then we will have more accurate results.

This is not true, though 23andme advertises the 500 mark, we all know it to be rubbish, most smaller segments can be very old, a good example is old segments on cold spots that can be several 1000's years old, while 5cM segments are probably between 1000-500 years old..

Also its only AC that advertises the 500 mark, they have not to my knowledge been so callous with naming AF and RF which we can confirm is much older in regards to segments that are found between individuals. We have several Norwegians with matches in China, India ect that are older then 500 years, there are several cold spots on the genome that can host segments that can be several 1000's of years old, so i would not hang on too tightly to the statements by 23andme, many of them are just commercial with little basis in science, simplified and catered to a American public with little to no knowledge of DNA..

Dienekes is not good when you compare him to AC directly, you should compare his data to other calculators whom used the same sample, and was created at about the same time...also he is known for his biased in regards to turks, as his agenda is clear, wanting to separate Greeks from turks as much as possible among other things...

[Prengs]

Then why are TA Albanians so hateful towards Turks? I mean, almost all of them. How about you?


They want to gain some european points by attacking and insulting Turks without reason.

In fact first started few turks (Onur, Partisan later Archangel) to bash Albanians.
Onur i know from macedoniantheweb (he always writted againt Albanians like did againt Greeks ). Just check their posts since the day when registered they started to write againt Albanians.
We previously never had problems.

[Onur]

It's almost as if there is pressure on her to show Mongoloid admixture. If she doesn't then she can't possibly be a real Turk. She should correct it by marrying a Mongol, then the others will accept her. Ridiculous.
100% correct. I was trying to point that out too. This is ridicules.



Then why are TA Albanians so hateful towards Turks? I mean, almost all of them. How about you?
The hateful Albanians here are just a representation of real world. Albanian state pretend to be friendly towards Turkey in public but they are clearly acting hostile against us behind closed doors. They also indoctrinate Albanian youth with anti-Turkish ideas and somehow blame Turks and Ottoman era for their isolation inside Europe while totally ignoring their communist iron curtain era and their dictatorship years.

In my opinion, they are doing this because they perceive the Turkish influence in Balkans as a threat to their greater Albanian/Illyrian cause. They simply don't want for former boss to return to the scene. They are following an agenda to Albanize all the muslims in Macedonia and Kosova and they think that any positive thoughts for Turkey would disrupt their agenda in Balkans.

In short, they wanna dump all the bad sides of Ottoman empire to the Turks but adopt all the good sides of it in the name of Albanians, plant Albanian flags on top of all the Ottoman era buildings, deny all the Turkish history in Balkans, deny the existence of Turkish people in Balkans and assimilate all the muslims in Macedonia and Kosova with their Illyrian fantasies and unite them under their red eagle flag. They perceive Turkey as a threat to their goals and thats why they are anti-Turkish.

[Pecheneg]

In fact first started few turks (Onur, Partisan later Archangel) to bash Albanians.
Onur i know from macedoniantheweb (he always writted againt Albanians like did againt Greeks ). Just check their posts since the day when registered they started to write againt Albanians.

We previously never had problems.


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40095

http://i50.tinypic.com/2im4y36.jpg

Should Turkey be divided between Greece and be like it was prior to the Turko Mongol Seljuks?

Thread created by Sturmgewehr , 01-26-2012


An albanian trying to send Turks back to inner asia by creating a thread. :laugh2:



Onur
Join Date: Mar 2012


Partizan
Join Date: Jul 2012


Archangel
Join Date: Nov 2012

[Tomorr]

The hateful Albanians here are just a representation of real world. Albanian state pretend to be friendly towards Turkey in public but they are clearly acting hostile against us behind closed doors. They also indoctrinate Albanian youth with anti-Turkish ideas and somehow blame Turks and Ottoman era for their isolation inside Europe while totally ignoring their communist iron curtain era and their dictatorship years.

In my opinion, they are doing this because they perceive the Turkish influence in Balkans as a threat to their greater Albanian/Illyrian cause. They simply don't want for former boss to return to the scene. They are following an agenda to Albanize all the muslims in Macedonia and Kosova and they think that any positive thoughts for Turkey would disrupt their agenda in Balkans.

In short, they wanna dump all the bad sides of Ottoman empire to the Turks but adopt all the good sides of it in the name of Albanians, plant Albanian flags on top of all the Ottoman era buildings, deny all the Turkish history in Balkans, deny the existence of Turkish people in Balkans and assimilate all the muslims in Macedonia and Kosova with their Illyrian fantasies and unite them under their red eagle flag. They perceive Turkey as a threat to their goals and thats why they are anti-Turkish.

Hahaha i think you got it all wrong here :D. Our dislike for you is simple. We see you mongrels as inferior and foreigners in our lands.

[Tomorr]

Thank the fucking gods medieval Albanian lowlands was a malaria infested shithole as it prevented the mongrels from settling in Albania. As a result there are zero Turks here :thumb001: And the very few Ottomans building in Albania are some mosques built by Ottoman Albanians. Which hopefully will disappear some day to remove all traces of the abomination called the Ottoman empire.

[Pecheneg]

^It seems someone's hemorrhoid starts to hurt again. Good.

[Tomorr]

^It seems someone's hemorrhoid starts to hurt again. Good.

It does hurt a bit yeah :icon_sad: Can you do me a favor Turk and help me analyze by taking a closer look plz :p

[Loki]

the Asian fetish among Turks seems to be growing all the time.

In some ways it can be compared to modern Magyars' obsession with Attila the Hun - even though modern Hungarians are clearly central European and have almost zero connection to the Huns of old.

[el22]

Then why are TA Albanians so hateful towards Turks? I mean, almost all of them. How about you?

I don't hate Turks. I don't think any turk would be able to quote anything hateful from me.

But above all, why should we hate them? We are not neighbors with turkey, we don't have unresolved issues with them, there are no turks in albania (well, there are a few turk businesses, but the workers are albanians and overall there are no more than some 100s turks here). There are probably more chinese merchants than turks here.

We could hate them if we blamed them for the missed progress under the ottoman empire, but that's not how we know history.

Even though we gained independence one century later than surrounding countries (they in the first part of 19th century, while we in the first part of 20th century), and they were helped (greece by they west and slavs by russia), and they incorporated even our lands while we were teared apart in 5 pieces to the limits of existence, we don't attribute any effect to these factors for our (not that much actually) backwardness compared to them.

For as much as we are concerned, we had the same start and conditions with the rest, but our communism sucked, and that's the only thing we hate.

I can give you a few facts and you can decide for yourself whether we hate them or not:
* Turkey was among the first countries that removed the visas for us, so if there was a place where we could go (legally) that was turkey. Many albanians go for holidays in tureky's beaches.
* The only infrastructure investment by our governments in these last 20 years was a new road that connects albania with kosova. It was built by an turko-american company and the turkey's prime minister Erdogan was in albania during the inauguration side by side our current prime minister.
* Turkey soap operas are hot these days and one or two years ago an actress was here and treated as a hero (I'm not entirely sure about the accuracy of this last point because I don't watch these kind of programs).

But I dislike turks now, several months after joining TA, so it's not accidental that other albanian TA members dislike them too.

[Lathander]

But I dislike turks now, several months after joining TA, so it's not accidental that other albanian TA members dislike them too.

No,it is not accidental.Insulting us was seen as a ticket to become european and good way to satisfy inferiority complexes by your comrades.So it is definitiely not accidental.

[el22]

No,it is not accidental.Insulting us was seen as a ticket to become european and good way to satisfy inferiority complexes by your comrades.So it is definitiely not accidental.

In the same post from where you quoted me, I also said that any turk can try to quote anything insulting from me, if they can.

What points I'm gaining by disliking you while still not being offensive? There must be some other explanation for my dislikeness.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

My point is precisely that your view is similar to Eurocentrism, though you sit on the other side, and so its called Occidentalism (though you are probabaly closer to Europe then Far Asian cultures in most matters anyways), as you talk about another culture through a glossy pair of glasses that are distorted by romanticism and "Turanist" ideas.

Reading old sources is erroneous if you dont know how to do it, take a cue from Gadamer:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

Lots of "izms " again you guys created in your written culture were not known when my ancestors wrote ,for example Orkhun inscripts, I take as first written monuments of Turk nationalism as well as Dede Korkut as sources ,no need any western categorisation. They are older than French Nationalism and their paralels of modern age.We are older than that. .Naming things doesn't mean you created them.We always have been nationalists, long before Turanism or Nationalism as concepts were made.


You, Turkish and Oguz lords and peoples, hear this! If the sky above did not collapse, and if the earth below did not go away, what could destroy your state and power?
The Kultegin Inscription
and it is Orkhun ,not Orkhan!
That sudden dislexia is quite meaningful

We have a rich folk culture ,tall tales ,folk songs I grown up with them ,you can't understand because you are not one of us,they are safely away from your Ratio .You are just a nosy stranger I don't know why is not interested in his own ancestors and history but always butting in mine ,making stereotypical weak comments ..

You are the Spectre ! Even the flowers would wither in your presence ,nothing beautiful and inspiring can endure in your intimidating cold destructive deduction.
We are enemies not because of nationalities ,but because of your way of thinking .Because you are unable to see beauty in things ,it doesn't make me a romantic person.It makes me a normal human ,loving my culture and people.
Don't answer because I' m not interested in debating with you .
Please ignore me from now on in this forum.Thank you.

[Hayalet]

http://i50.tinypic.com/2im4y36.jpg
To be fair, he was provoked by Hasol/Bozkurt Karabash. That's not to say you can't find Albanian members making generic anti-Turkish posts from a Eurocentric POV every now and then.


the Asian fetish among Turks seems to be growing all the time.
It's not a fetish. Turks' connection to other Turkic peoples is not something "discovered" in the modern era. It's something that has been noted by all sorts of Turkic and non-Turkic (European, Islamic etc.) scholars throughout history.

[Tomorr]

No,it is not accidental.Insulting us was seen as a ticket to become european and good way to satisfy inferiority complexes by your comrades.So it is definitiely not accidental.

Hahahahaha xD "ticket to become european"

Get lost mongrel. You guys make it so easy to hate you. :picard2:

Still haven't figured out what you guys are doing on a Euro forum :rolleyes:

[Su]

@Orange, did Loki post your auntie's 23andme raw data to gedmatch?

[legolasbozo]

I don't hate Turks. I don't think any turk would be able to quote anything hateful from me.

But above all, why should we hate them? We are not neighbors with turkey, we don't have unresolved issues with them, there are no turks in albania (well, there are a few turk businesses, but the workers are albanians and overall there are no more than some 100s turks here). There are probably more chinese merchants than turks here.

We could hate them if we blamed them for the missed progress under the ottoman empire, but that's not how we know history.

Even though we gained independence one century later than surrounding countries (they in the first part of 19th century, while we in the first part of 20th century), and they were helped (greece by they west and slavs by russia), and they incorporated even our lands while we were teared apart in 5 pieces to the limits of existence, we don't attribute any effect to these factors for our (not that much actually) backwardness compared to them.

For as much as we are concerned, we had the same start and conditions with the rest, but our communism sucked, and that's the only thing we hate.

I can give you a few facts and you can decide for yourself whether we hate them or not:
* Turkey was among the first countries that removed the visas for us, so if there was a place where we could go (legally) that was turkey. Many albanians go for holidays in tureky's beaches.
* The only infrastructure investment by our governments in these last 20 years was a new road that connects albania with kosova. It was built by an turko-american company and the turkey's prime minister Erdogan was in albania during the inauguration side by side our current prime minister.
* Turkey soap operas are hot these days and one or two years ago an actress was here and treated as a hero (I'm not entirely sure about the accuracy of this last point because I don't watch these kind of programs).

But I dislike turks now, several months after joining TA, so it's not accidental that other albanian TA members dislike them too.

When i was in high school, i was drawing UCK eagle to my notebook. Because my cousin was conservative person and he is devoting himself for Bosnia, Albania, Chechenia and he was my role model. He was gathered a few times money for UCK in his college, and in those times Turkish nation send 40 million $ to Albanians(İn Turkey if you help people you shouldn't say that, it's inappropriate, sorry for my rudeness) But when i came here, i hate Albanians for their hatred towards Us. And i see that you experienced the same way i did. That's funny actually, when the hatred begin between each other is unclear, but whomever started the hatred we shouldn't been affected, because our hatred would effect some good intention albanians or Turks, and hatred don't help any nation.

[evon]

Thank the fucking gods medieval Albanian lowlands was a malaria infested shithole as it prevented the mongrels from settling in Albania. As a result there are zero Turks here :thumb001: And the very few Ottomans building in Albania are some mosques built by Ottoman Albanians. Which hopefully will disappear some day to remove all traces of the abomination called the Ottoman empire.

If you want to start debating what could be a source of animosity i guess Ali Pasha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt) is a good start..

I think what many Europeans will react to in terms of Turkish versus other ethnic groups on this forum, is the frequent occurrence of pack mentality, or Tribalism if you may (Grouping together against a non-turkish member, gossiping, ect)..which is extremely frowned upon in European cultures, its basically seen as the behaviour of someone weak and bad, while independence in thought and action is valued much higher and seen as an ideal behaviour.



Lots of "izms " again you guys created in your written culture were not known when my ancestors wrote ,for example Orkhun inscripts, I take as first written monuments of Turk nationalism as well as Dede Korkut as sources ,no need any western categorisation. They are older than French Nationalism and their paralels of modern age.We are older than that. .Naming things doesn't mean you created them.We always have been nationalists, long before Turanism or Nationalism as concepts were made.

We have a rich folk culture ,tall tales ,folk songs I grown up with them ,you can't understand because you are not one of us,they are safely away from your Ratio .You are just a nosy stranger I don't know why is not interested in his own ancestors and history but always butting in mine ,making stereotypical weak comments ..

You are the Spectre ! Even the flowers would wither in your presence ,nothing beautiful and inspiring can endure in your intimidating cold destructive deduction.
We are enemies not because of nationalities ,but because of your way of thinking .Because you are unable to see beauty in things ,it doesn't make me a romantic person.It makes me a normal human ,loving my culture and people.
Don't answer because I' m not interested in debating with you .
Please ignore me from now on in this forum.Thank you.

This is what i mean, you are a clearly Occidentalist, which in this case leads to ignorance and hate towards European history. You should stop judging Europe and its peoples from a moral high point. Also, calling me Eurocentric while also listing my appreciation for Indian culture is about as contradictory as can be, given that India is not a European culture, but belong to one of the great Asian cultures.

Firstly my own norse culture used a script called Runes long before the Orkhan script was created called Runes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_script)
http://static5.depositphotos.com/1000856/500/v/950/depositphotos_5006508-Elder-Futhark-and-Other-Runes-of-Northern-Europe.jpg
The Orkhan script is derived from middle eastern scripts as is Runes.

Secondly, Greek and Roman cultures from which most of these ism terms derives from are far older then most other cultures that are "alive" today, this includes Turkic cultures in central asia ect..Naming something does not mean you own anything, but if you are unable to communicate complex ideas you become encased in your own mind, unable to breach the barrier between your brain and your voice.

Thirdly, nationalism was not created by the French, but it was very important in their modern history.

here is a short but good exemption from wiki on the history of nationalism:


The term nationalism was coined by Johann Gottfried Herder (nationalismus) during the late 1770s.[11] Precisely where and when nationalism emerged is difficult to determine, but its development is closely related to that of the modern state and the push for popular sovereignty that surfaced with the French Revolution and the American Revolution in the late 18th century and culminated with the ethnic/national revolutions of Europe, for instance the Greek War of Independence.[8] Since that time, nationalism has become one of the most significant political and social forces in history, perhaps most notably as a major influence or postulate of World War I and especially World War II. Fascism is a form of authoritarian nationalism which stresses absolute loyalty and obedience to the state, whose purpose is to serve the interests of its nation alone.[12][13][14][15] Benedict Anderson argued that, "Print language is what invents nationalism, not a particular language per se".[16]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#History

And old steppe peoples did not possess the idea of nationalism as we know it today. Its especially visible given they had such a fluid attitude towards geography.

All peoples have tales and such, i dont have any issues with that, i never said Turkish people did not have a rich culture (the Ottomans are among one of the great cultures of history) :picard1: get over yourself, i am not interested in your culture more then anyone else(you should look at my comments and threads on other cultures), but very few others make such ignorant comments as you did here, had you wanted to live in peace with your ignorance you would not have flaunted it on a comment forum filled with Europeans in English!

I dont know why you take everything so personal? and if you do, this kind of forum is not the place to post such comments, as comments are meant to be read and replied by others.

Actually i study (currently Greek art) and have studied allot of art, and i can appreciate the beauty of things, but there is a difference between seeing something beautiful and stating ignorant ideals and overtly sit on a moral high point judging others whom are seen as being inferior and sedentary, all of this despite yourself also belonging to the same sedentary culture you seem to despise so much, the psychological implications here are not something i wish to dwell on, as thats too personal for this forum.

Maybe you should ask yourself, why do i post so much romantic posts about a culture that is so different from my own, both in time and place?

[orangepulp]

@Orange, did Loki post your auntie's 23andme raw data to gedmatch?

Yes, I did. I posted her results here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1311314#post1311314

She is very Armenian like with very minor Asian.

Average Turkish Asian score is around 5.5% and she is around 1.50% Asian.

[Loki]

Yes, I did. I posted her results here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1311314#post1311314

She is very Armenian like with very minor Asian.

Average Turkish Asian score is around 5.5% and she is around 1.50% Asian.

Noise. I also have that much East Asian ...

[Proto-Shaman]

Interesting. I wonder how genetics of Turks correlate with those of Latinos. After all, we are also a mixture between mongoloid and european peoples.
Another good example would be Spanish-Filipino mixtures (http://theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1330574#post1330574), such as Filipina actress Kristine Hermosa:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3dfC_Xt_8Tg/UAA3F49G_zI/AAAAAAAAMdQ/PtZekS3fCi4/s1600/Kristine+Hermosa+profile+pic.jpg

She can pass in many Turkic and Latino areas.

[Huizhong]

Yes most likely the original Turks were slightly more Mongoloid than Caucasoid. Though they were mixed race people at the start.

Turks are still Mongoloid but they try to shamefully disown their heritage. :picard2:

[Scholarios]

It's not a fetish. Turks' connection to other Turkic peoples is not something "discovered" in the modern era. It's something that has been noted by all sorts of Turkic and non-Turkic (European, Islamic etc.) scholars throughout history.

Anatolian Turks have some connection to Mongolia for sure. When I see them extend this connection to things like modern Japanese or Korean culture it's where I see classic Western Asian fetish become involved.

[Annihilus]

Turks are still Mongoloid but they try to shamefully disown their heritage. :picard2:

Are you freaking kidding me:confused: We are the only people that don't do that, well us and the Hungarians.


Anatolian Turks have some connection to Mongolia for sure. When I see them extend this connection to things like modern Japanese or Korean culture it's where I see classic Western Asian fetish become involved.

Actually the connection is more northeast asia.

[Balmung]

Every time I go in like forums . I always see Turks talking bad about mixed people
Specially people from South America or even Americans

So as an American , I am very confuse too

I don't post a lot , but I've been here since July and I have notice this quiet often

Like it seems its acceptable for people in the old world to be mixed

But ppl from the new world ; no , and they are seen as like inferior idk

I have honestly seen far more Europeans insult South & North Americans/mixed people than ive ever seen Turks. Also Siberian who is that girl in your avatar? She is adorable!

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Also Siberian, who is that girl in your avatar? She is adorable!

I don't know ..A random Mongolian girl in her traditional robe "deel", I found on net made my avatar ,because she is cute :)

[Scholarios]

Are you freaking kidding me:confused: We are the only people that don't do that, well us and the Hungarians.



Actually the connection is more northeast asia.

Connection between Turks and Northeast Asians is vague as hell. Orientalism to the max.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Connection between Turks and Northeast Asians is vague as hell. Orientalism to the max.

That is Altay region ,Altay Mountains ,where our nation first emerged on earth, this place is our anchestral homeland. Our language is spoken there first time ,long before your Orientalism was named .

In our mythology these mountains are sacred.What does Olimpos Mountains mean to you ,or Fuji mountains to Japanese ,judge by that

http://i.imgur.com/Cf2JqxX.jpg

[Annihilus]

Connection between Turks and Northeast Asians is vague as hell. Orientalism to the max.


why, all my 4% mongoloid is north east asian:confused:

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes most likely the original Turks were slightly more Mongoloid than Caucasoid. Though they were mixed race people at the start.Turks are still Mongoloid but they try to shamefully disown their heritage. :picard2:
At both! Are you kiding me? You even don't know the cultural and genetic history of Eurasia! So, what the hell do you know about our history, beside the fact that you guys always try to downplay our real ancient hybrid appearance?!?!