Turkey: Friend or Foe?

[Jerreiche]

The poll is open and this poll is intended for European Members of the Board only (So no Turks, no New Worlders or Antipodeans etc., in order to find a more or less relevant and representative data to the question)

The question is simple:

Do you consider Turkey to be a true friend of Europe, or rather a neutral/enemy force?

This poll is not about whether you are in favor or oppose Turkey's membership bid to the European Union.

In regard to Europe and Europeans, both to your own nation and the whole European region: Do you think as turkey as any other thing than dangerous aliens?

[Anusiya]

I think Europe is a true friend of Europe, yes.

[Jerreiche]

I think Europe is a true friend of Europe, yes.

Typo fixed. Ta

[gregorius]

i dont think europe is ready for 80 million muslim people, if turkey goes euro the EU wil share borders with countries like syria, iraq and iran so count the 80 million double.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Nice poll filled with weasel words.

[Englisc]

I choose the last option.

Turks are racially and culturally non-European and have proven to be dangerous to Europe both historically and in current mass immigration to Germany and other countries.

Check out this blog.

http://stopturkey.blogspot.co.uk/

[Anusiya]

No, they are not ready yet.

[Hayalet]

Any policy that doesn't include in the long term the deportation of the mass Turkish migration to Europe and the annexation of West Thrace and Cyrpus is a severe case of national auto-inmunuty and such policies will drive us to our destruction as a civilisation in the long term
What does this even mean? Perhaps deportation of Turkish immigrants from Europe? And annexation of West Thrace and Cyprus by whom, when?

[SKYNET]

the last one.

[morski]

What does this even mean? Perhaps deportation of Turkish immigrants from Europe? And annexation of West Thrace and Cyprus by whom, when?

Western Thrace is in Greece since 1920, I guess teh OP meant Eastern Thrace.

[Albion]

I went for this one:


The past is the past, today Turks are a neutral force from whom we must remain wary: we can both benefit from a mutual relation, but always keep an eye on them

They're certainly not neutral, but we can partner with them in economic and military matters. This doesn't mean they should join the EU or Schengen (be allowed free movement within Europe). Being allies with Japan didn't automatically confer them these rights (or vice versa), so why should Turkey be any different just because it is closer?
They are an important ally in that region though, we shouldn't forget that.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Considering how Turkey's total contribution over their 500 years of occupation was a number of mosques and Islam coupled with the fact they continue to be a negative force in the region. I would say foe.

[Geni]

Turks are dangerous for Europa..

[poiuytrewq0987]

I went for this one:



They're certainly not neutral, but we can partner with them in economic and military matters. This doesn't mean they should join the EU or Schengen (be allowed free movement within Europe). Being allies with Japan didn't automatically confer them these rights (or vice versa), so why should Turkey be any different just because it is closer?
They are an important ally in that region though, we shouldn't forget that.

I wouldn't say ally. They are on the side of Iran on Israel-Israeli Arab conflict.

http://shoebat.com/2012/11/19/turkeys-erdogan-calls-israel-a-terrorist-state-state-department-spokesman-refuses-to-condemn/

Erdogan and his cronies are playing hokey with the West to gain benefits but in reality they are not aligned with us at all.

[Anatolian Eagle]

I wouldn't say ally. They are on the side of Iran on Israel-Israeli Arab conflict.

http://shoebat.com/2012/11/19/turkeys-erdogan-calls-israel-a-terrorist-state-state-department-spokesman-refuses-to-condemn/

Erdogan and his cronies are playing hokey with the West to gain benefits but in reality they are not aligned with us at all.

Ironically Iran says it's the exact opposite.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=iran-tells-turkey-change-tack-or-face-trouble-2011-10-09

[TheMagnificent]

Turkey is highly integrated with the West in many ways by being a member of organisations like the Council of Europe, NATO, OECD, EBU, UEFA, the EU Customs Union and the G-20, so they're definitely not a foe to Europe.

[Anusiya]

Turkey is highly integrated with the West in many ways by being a member of organisations like the Council of Europe, NATO, OECD, EBU, UEFA, the EU Customs Union and the G-20, so they're definitely not a foe to Europe.

The people are different though. Let's take a trip to Anatolia mainland and we'll both agree.

[Onur]

No, they are not ready yet.
If you mean total subjugation of Turkey by Brussels, then no, we will never be "ready" for that in that sense. We are not like the western powers protectorate state of neo-Greece. The Turkish republic has been created by the Turks themselves. We never had Russian military allies, Bavarian kings nor funds from Brussels and Berlin to maintain our state.

We have our own culture distinct from the so-called "European" one. We will never be like them but will remain as we are and always were for the last 1000 years in these lands.

The distinctive Turkish culture and our giant historical background prevents us being "ready" in that sense. We are not like Bulgaria, Slovakia nor Croatia either. We are too big to swallow for the EU elites.


Tough i agree with the other Turkish members above me about that we are not an enemy of European states since 1923.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Ironically Iran says it's the exact opposite.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=iran-tells-turkey-change-tack-or-face-trouble-2011-10-09

That's an entirely different issue; Muslims fighting each others for supremacy is nothing new. On Israel, they are united. Ankara didn't even make a noise when Palestinians first hit Israel with Iranian-manufactured Fajr-5 rockets. But if Israel retaliate to those rocket attacks? Oh, that's terrorist. Yeah. Erdogan is an idiot and an imbecile for calling Israel, a major Western ally, a terrorist state. I thought Turkey was supposed to be our ally? Guess not but it was fun to watch Morsi outdo Erdoghan by intervening in the conflict as the peacemaking mediator rather than the guy who yells out high rhetoric.

[Loki]

C'mon don't be delusional - Turkey doesn't even want to join the EU. They are not dangerous - Turkey has a long history of co-operation with Europe. They helped the Dutch - even my very ancestors - in the 17th century, they were long-time allies of Germany. Germany and the Ottoman Empire were together in WW1, which lead to the collapse of the OE. Even Adolf Hitler spoke of admiration for Turkey ...

[Anatolian Eagle]

That's an entirely different issue; Muslims fighting each others for supremacy is nothing new. On Israel, they are united. Ankara didn't even make a noise when Palestinians first hit Israel with Iranian-manufactured Fajr-5 rockets. But if Israel retaliate to those rocket attacks? Oh, that's terrorist. Yeah. Erdogan is an idiot and an imbecile for calling Israel, a major Western ally, a terrorist state. I thought Turkey was supposed to be our ally? Guess not but it was fun to watch Morsi outdo Erdoghan by intervening in the conflict as the peacemaking mediator rather than the guy who yells out high rhetoric.

Read the article and you'll see it's something more than that.

As if whole Europe regard Israel as an ally. How the fuck Israel is what determines Turkey's aligance with Europe anyway?

Anyways I don't support Erdoğan and not like Europe made any kind of noise either, nor I actually take your words seriously since you probably gonna say exact opposite in few weeks but re-change your views for the next days again aswell.

[Graus]

Between 3 and 4, the muslims have to leave but I am unwilling to send my fellow countrymen to war for Greek land. We already took too many fights for ungrateful allies.

[Kemalisté]

C'mon don't be delusional - Turkey doesn't even want to join the EU. They are not dangerous - Turkey has a long history of co-operation with Europe. They helped the Dutch - even my very ancestors - in the 17th century, they were long-time allies of Germany. Germany and the Ottoman Empire were together in WW1, which lead to the collapse of the OE. Even Adolf Hitler spoke of admiration for Turkey ...

During the World War II, Hitler sent a letter to the Turkish president Ismet Inonu, explaining that he had no any intention to invade Turkey, and that he ordered his soldiers not to get close to the Turkish border more than 85 kilometers from the occupied Greek territory, based on his respect toward Turkish people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–Turkey_relations#Letter_from_Adolf_Hitler. 27s_.C4.B0n.C3.B6n.C3.BC

Still I hate that fascist though. But many people in Europe are very prejudiced toward Turkish people. They complain about Turkey shifting its axis toward East, but that's inevitable since Turkey always faced toward Europe but did not see anything in return from them in the past. I'm sure things could have been much different if Turkey was not delayed in front of the EU doors for 50 years...

[Leliana]

'Turks are plain dangerous. Any policy that doesn't include in the long term the deportation of the mass Turkish migration to Europe and the annexation of West Thrace and Cyrpus is a severe case of national auto-inmunuty and such policies will drive us to our destruction as a civilisation in the long term'

This! The history of the Turks/Ottomans in one of steady aggression against Europe and their nature hasn't changed the slightest. The only thing that has changed is their tactic to gain control over large parts of Europe. Today Turkish leader Erdogan wants to gain influence on the Balkans again. And let's not forget about the million of Turkish cohorts in Western European countries.

Turks were always detrimental to the well-being of European people. The were, are and will always stay a threat and an enemy of any upright European and Christian!

[ficuscarica]

I am glad the poll results are clear.
Apart from the Dutch (who don´t understand that the Turks only used them...) Europeans know the truth.

[Leliana]

I am glad the poll results are clear.
But not clear enough. :(

[ficuscarica]

But not clear enough. :(

I don´t count LunaRose´s vote as a European vote, because Bosnia is a loyal Turkish colony.
Between positive and negative votes it is 5:14 at the moment. That isn´t too bad.

[Kemalisté]

gkNrFizLU0s

[Albion]

I wouldn't say ally. They are on the side of Iran on Israel-Israeli Arab conflict.

http://shoebat.com/2012/11/19/turkeys-erdogan-calls-israel-a-terrorist-state-state-department-spokesman-refuses-to-condemn/

Erdogan and his cronies are playing hokey with the West to gain benefits but in reality they are not aligned with us at all.

They've been allies with us since the cold war and on previous occasions when we haven't been at war.

[Sultan Suleiman]

That's an entirely different issue; Muslims fighting each others for supremacy is nothing new. On Israel, they are united. Ankara didn't even make a noise when Palestinians first hit Israel with Iranian-manufactured Fajr-5 rockets. But if Israel retaliate to those rocket attacks? Oh, that's terrorist. Yeah. Erdogan is an idiot and an imbecile for calling Israel, a major Western ally, a terrorist state. I thought Turkey was supposed to be our ally? Guess not but it was fun to watch Morsi outdo Erdoghan by intervening in the conflict as the peacemaking mediator rather than the guy who yells out high rhetoric.

By whom do you refer when you say "us"?

[Jerreiche]

ok. So far only one voter sees no danger whatsoever in Turkey (the other positive vote comes from a Turk that did not read the description of the poll or was angry at the results) , the rest debate between a wary approach and downright despise.

Who was that Turk again that said something like my view [on how Turkey is perceived by Euros] is "out-of-date and barely has any relevance on today's issues"? :D

[Su]

i dont think europe is ready for 80 million muslim people, if turkey goes euro the EU wil share borders with countries like syria, iraq and iran so count the 80 million double.

You forgot to add your own country, EU will also bother with a 3. world country called armenia.

[Jerreiche]

You forgot to add your own country, EU will also bother with a 3. world country called armenia.

Armos have always been welcome. There used to be Armenian quarters in most important towns of the Lithuanian commonwealth and the Russian Empire. There are houndreds of thousads of them all over the EU. Never heard any rant or complains about their behavior.

I know however that one Armenian officer got beheaded IN HIS BED by a Turk from Azerbajan not long ago in European soil.

They are Christians and have been the "outer marches" of Europe for thousands of years.

[gregorius]

You forgot to add your own country, EU will also bother with a 3. world country called armenia.

Armenia isnt a muslim nation first of all. Second of all armenians are mostly high educated and do not make much trouble, correct me if im wrong,

Here in holland Turks and people from Marocco are the most disliked persons

And the border with armenia is closed so it would not have a value.
Why are you butthurt ?

I also didnt mention Georgia for a reason

Armenia isnt a 3th world country btw, we've more freedom than in any other turkic nation

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I prefer cooperation with new rising Asia ,not with falling Europe..
Future is in the east ,no more in the west

[Blackout]

I don´t count LunaRose´s vote as a European vote, because Bosnia is a loyal Turkish colony.
Between positive and negative votes it is 5:14 at the moment. That isn´t too bad.

The OP specifically stated NO 'New Worlders'. Who the hell are you to question an ethnic European, when you yourself are foreign?

[Lithium]

Turks have always been a threat for Europe. All of them have to be deported back to Asia.

[Blackout]

Armenia isnt a muslim nation first of all. Second of all armenians are mostly high educated and do not make much trouble, correct me if im wrong,

Here in holland Turks and people from Marocco are the most disliked persons

And the border with armenia is closed so it would not have a value.
Why are you butthurt ?

What about the Armenian mafia, aswell as other criminals? Armenians are not saints, if you are trying to say this. Don't forget there are Armenians living in Turkey aswell.

[gregorius]

Armenians have been loyal to communist Russia, because its in THEIR OWN interests. If you think they are loyal to Christians, look at how they have been with Georgians.



What about the Armenian mafia, aswell as other criminals? Armenians are not saints, if you are trying to say this. Don't forget there are Armenians living in Turkey aswell.

im not saying we are saints, but compared to you we are.

Tell me how we have been with georgia?

[alb0zfinest]

Honestly if they easily assimilated i wouldn't care that much, but since that's not the case i say not yet.

[Cannabis Sativa]

They've been allies with us since the cold war and on previous occasions when we haven't been at war.

In fact yes, our cold war perception came to prove we're no threat to European existence. Most of the men in my family starting from my grandpa actively took part in a struggle(including Korean War and regional anti-communist movements) toward Iron Curtain and its proxies with European and American allies, therefore they were good with them. So i personally can't say there are anti-western sentiments among them. I'm only smiling to people waiting for a reason of hostility(considering most of them are from ex-iron curtain sewers).

[Blackout]

Tell me how we have been with georgia?

Well thanks to russia, Armenians have flooded places like Ossetia and Abkhazia. The ones that have settled, tend to be anti Georgian. I am not biased on this, because the people who have lost out the most are the native tribes...

[gregorius]

Well thanks to russia, Armenians have flooded places like Ossetia and Abkhazia. The ones that have settled, tend to be anti Georgian. I am not biased on this, because the people who have lost out the most are the native tribes...

Nor Abchazia nor Ossetia want to be part of Georgia.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Demographic_change_in_Abkhazia_1897-1989.svg

seems like the georgians are going even faster than the armenians to abchazia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Demographics
There are very few armenians in south ossetia

and who are you to talk about flooded places :D.

[Partizan]

At first, I am a Turk who exactly opposes alliance with the Euro-Atlantic alliances(and also with the East aka Russia-Iran-China evil triangle).

However, I do not see West as an enemy at all. Unless they meddle up into business of my country, I would like to have trade relations with Europe.

I am never in favor of giving compensations about my national affairs(Cyprus especially), neither I would allow Euros to meddle up Kurdish-Armenian-Greek etc. issues. Do I talk about independent Basque or Catalan state or something? Nope, that is not my business.

Neither friend nor foe IMHO. However just to remind our Gallipoli, if someone will try to invade my land, we won't just sit and watch:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MU5P2iZVA0Y/T2S-hzo9n5I/AAAAAAAABWg/wdJX98udaKo/s1600/canakkalesavasiii.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/711_124942044326140_277343539_n.jpg

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm101710880/gallipoli-alan-moorehead-paperback-cover-art.jpg

[Onur]

I'm only smiling to people waiting for a reason of hostility(considering most of them are from ex-iron curtain sewers).
Yeah, me too. These so-called "pro-European" people from ex-commie states are especially comical, like they are supposedly a member of "European society" since the beginning of the history :rolleyes:

Ofc most of these people here are young and naive. They have born when the EU propaganda was running wild in their countries and they are unfortunately unaware of their anti-western past with all the communist doctrines, closed borders, totally separated from outside world, believed the lies of it like the Lada being the best car in the world and mother Russia is supposedly the bestest of best ever :)

Most funnily, these people comes up and tries to give us (Turks) democracy and civilization lessons while their own countries met with democracy less than 20 years ago for the first time ever, after being the satellites of Moscow for ages and ruled by ruthless dictators in each of them.

[gregorius]

Well I dont give no one lesson in democracy, im just giving my opinion.

[Cannabis Sativa]

Ofc most of these people here are young and naive. They have born when the EU propaganda was running wild in their countries and they are unfortunately unaware of their anti-western past with all the communist doctrines, closed borders, totally separated from outside world, believed the lies of it like the Lada being the best car in the world and mother Russia is supposedly the bestest of best ever :)

Sometimes I feel myself lucky because i was not born in such shitty dictatorship which was even far worse than Assad's wet dreams at that time.

[gregorius]

Sometimes I feel myself lucky because i was not born in such shitty dictatorship which was even far worse than Assad's wet dreams at that time.

Most people where actually very satisfied in the sovjet union untill garbatsjov came.

I am raised in The Netherlands so i dont know very much about that time

Yes if Assad wil go what do you think will come next, A nice sharia country where know women cant walk on the streets without a nice bourka.

[Damião de Góis]

I would say they are neither friend or foe. Turkey and Portugal didn't have that much contact with each other.

[Blackout]

Nor Abchazia nor Ossetia want to be part of Georgia.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Demographic_change_in_Abkhazia_1897-1989.svg

seems like the georgians are going even faster than the armenians to abchazia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Demographics
There are very few armenians in south ossetia

and who are you to talk about flooded places :D.

I am not Turkish or Gerorgian. You asked me what the Armenians have done to Georgians, so I gave you my answer. Armenians have gone in large numbers to America, Russia, Western Europe and settled in various other republics (which includes the Turkish Republic itself), so how can you complain about Turkey; Especially when it's closer, and in fact partially in Europe itself? :dielaughing:

[gregorius]

I am not Turkish or Gerorgian. You asked me what the Armenians have done to Georgians, so I gave you my answer. Armenians have gone in large numbers to America, Russia, Western Europe and settled in various other republics (which includes the Turkish Republic itself), so how can you complain about another country like Turkey especially when it's closer and in fact partially in Europe itself?

Well as i Said, most armenians arent troublemakers, second of all those armenians mostly are hemsenin and are living there for many centuries. I've never said that it ouwld be great if armenia would join the EU.
Its doesnt have anything to do being closer. Turkey is also closer than iceland and cyprus.

you probaly know that on whats now turkey it was mostly armenian and greek ground until the turks came from central asia, it fel under the ottoman empire and there are still armenians living untill now. but the most are or murderd or got away to america and russia.

You said in your previous post that '' there are living armenians here in turkey'' so i thought you would be turkish.

[Absinthe]

I voted this


The past is the past, today Turks are a neutral force from whom we must remain wary: we can both benefit from a mutual relation, but always keep an eye on them

for lack of a better alternative, but I think the whole phrasing of the options is faulty. It is too Eurocentric. I think Turks have been Westernized to a great extent but I don't think they are eyeing Europe (nor pose any sort of immediate threat to it) in any sense.

Why would they? They are (relatively) strong and autonomous, they're growing, they've managed to become secular and progressive, they're proud, they have their own culture, they have tourism, they have industry, and so on.
Why would they want to join the sinking ship that the EU is? If anything they'd have better chances of growing on their own.

I personally wholeheartedly support an independent, secular, progressive and educated Turkey, as long as certain Turks here don't bust our balls all the time with their anti-Balkan sentiments :p
And especially as long as Turkey keeps to herself and minds her own business.

As for the Turkish immigrants in Europe, that's another story. Like most immigrants whose home countries have, in the meanwhile, flourished, I'd think they'd be better off returning to the motherland anyway; for their own sake first and foremost.

[Dengizik]

I would say they are neither friend or foe. Turkey and Portugal didn't have that much contact with each other.

Raul Meireles, Manuel Fernandes.

[Cannabis Sativa]

Most people where actually very satisfied in the sovjet union untill garbatsjov came.

I am raised in The Netherlands so i dont know very much about that time

Yes if Assad wil go what do you think will come next, A nice sharia country where know women cant walk on the streets without a nice bourka.

*Most people looked satisfied because they had no other option. If they opposed the regime, their end would be worse than in an average Sharia ruled country. God knows what would happen to their families, they would end in a forced labor camp or a political prison for life.

*You're a diaspora Armenian, probably Anatolian descent. So i would not expect you to know what is happening in those countries.

*There are different opinions in Syria persecuted during Assad regime same as old-commie sewers of Eastern Europe. Social democrats, several liberal right fractions which does not even promote Sharia or other lunatic thing. If you lived in Syria prior to 90s, you should've forced to say there is no God but Assad. Note that Syrian Regime is a minority regime. Sooner or later they will fall. My mother is Sunni(a Syrian Turk), she's unveiled, not even a devout Muslim. When she walked in the street with her daily clothes with my female cousin in her hometown(Aleppo), nobody cursed her even most people are dominantly conservative people and today's opponents of the Assad regime.

[gregorius]

*Most people looked satisfied because they had no other option. If they opposed the regime, their end would be worse than in an average Sharia ruled country. God knows what would happen to their families, they would end in a forced labor camp or a political prison for life.

*You're a diaspora Armenian, probably Anatolian descent. So i would not expect you to know what is happening in those countries.

*There are different opinions in Syria persecuted during Assad regime same as old-commie sewers of Eastern Europe. Social democrats, several liberal right fractions which does not even promote Sharia or other lunatic thing. If you lived in Syria prior to 90s, you should've forced to say there is no God but Assad. Note that Syrian Regime is a minority regime. Sooner or later they will fall. My mother is Sunni(a Syrian Turk), she's unveiled, not even a devout Muslim. When she walked in the street with her daily clothes with my female cousin in her hometown(Aleppo), nobody cursed her even most people are dominantly conservative people and today's opponents of the Assad regime.

Ive actually spoken russians and armenians nowadays and they where saying the same thing as what i said. Maybe its the propaganda what just hits you and thinking otherwise

No im not anatolian, but ive got a great grandfather from erzerum.

Actually this kind of thing in syria happend also in Iran a couple of decades ago. you saw the result

but this thread isnt about me or about the soviet.

[Sophie]

Well as i Said, most armenians arent troublemakers, second of all those armenians mostly are hemsenin and are living there for many centuries. I've never said that it ouwld be great if armenia would join the EU.
Its doesnt have anything to do being closer. Turkey is also closer than iceland and cyprus.

you probaly know that on whats now turkey it was mostly armenian and greek ground until the turks came from central asia, it fel under the ottoman empire and there are still armenians living untill now. but the most are or murderd or got away to america and russia.

You said in your previous post that '' there are living armenians here in turkey'' so i thought you would be turkish.

Ever heard of Turkification? And no... The ancestors of modern Turks (Hittites, Hattians, and other Neolithic people) precede both Armenians and Greeks in Anatolia by a VERY long time!

[gregorius]

Ever heard of Turkification? And no... The ancestors of modern Turks (Hittites, Hattians, and other Neolithic people) precede both Armenians and Greeks in Anatolia by a VERY long time!

thats true buth they dont exist anymore, The greeks and the armenians lived there until the Turks came from central asia. So its not that the hittites and the others are the ancestors of the modern turks,

[Anatolian Eagle]

ok. So far only one voter sees no danger whatsoever in Turkey (the other positive vote comes from a Turk that did not read the description of the poll or was angry at the results) , the rest debate between a wary approach and downright despise.

Who was that Turk again that said something like my view [on how Turkey is perceived by Euros] is "out-of-date and barely has any relevance on today's issues"? :D

It was me and I'm still behind my words. First of all I never claimed Turkey is viewed very friendly in Europe. If you happen to read, I gave my opinion on your poll that almost every opinion in it is full of weasel words. People who regard Turkey as an ally also support mass Turkish immigration to Europe I'm sure :rolleyes: The paranoia of yours and kin won't change the fact the we aren't hostile to Europe and that Turkey is in cooperation with Europe today. It's always you and your kin who talks about invading the fuck out of Turkey here and annexing some land, I barely see any Turk having fetishes about annexing somewhere in Europe, invading the fuck of some country and claim "lost lands", not even in Turkish forums. Probably only Greece is exception, which is just some historical vendetta typical in Balkans, but not even that vendetta is as hot as it used to be anymore. Get real, damnit.

[Sophie]

thats true buth they dont exist anymore, The greeks and the armenians lived there until the Turks came from central asia. So its not that the hittites and the others are the ancestors of the modern turks,

They do exist, they just call themselves Turks today. Also, anyone can use the same argument because everyone today is mixed in one way or another. The same argument can be made for Armenia because the speak an irregular language in the region... So It's pointless trust me

[Cannabis Sativa]

Actually this kind of thing in syria happend also in Iran a couple of decades ago. you saw the result

Yeah, i saw it. I also saw that same Iranian regime backs the chimping of Assad for their political dirt. Shia chimps should be stuck in Iran for the mental sanity of the people.

[gregorius]

They do exist, they just call themselves Turks today. Also, anyone can use the same argument because everyone today is mixed in one way or another. The same argument can be made for Armenia because the speak an irregular language in the region... So It's pointless trust me

the language isnt spoken, the traditions arent there anymore, they just dont exist anymore whereas armenia does.

im not saying the anatolian land belongs to armenia now or to the greeks.

But look at my earlier post and you will see what i meant with '' the armenians lived there'' Crescent said that the armenians flued to turkey'' Which is not true.

[Blackout]

the language isnt spoken, the traditions arent there anymore, they just dont exist anymore whereas armenia does.

im not saying the anatolian land belongs to armenia now or to the greeks.

But look at my earlier post and you will see what i meant with '' the armenians lived there'' Crescent said that the armenians flued to turkey'' Which is not true.

I never said they 'flooded' Turkey, I was talking in regards to other places. I did say that Armenians have settled over there, however.

[Fortis in Arduis]

They have been breeding far too quickly. Avoid, for now...

[gregorius]

I never said they 'flooded' Turkey, I was talking in regards to other places. I did say that Armenians have settled over there, however.

this is what you said

Armenians have gone in large numbers to America, Russia, Western Europe and settled in various other republics (which includes the Turkish Republic itself)

The armenians nowadays in turkey are armenians who are living there for generations there. Believe me no armenian want to go to turkey and settle there. As for the other countries yes especialy to California. The Armenians in Russia are mostly living there for a very long time due the fact it was all soviet.

[Superbia]

Definetely last option form the poll. Taking a look at Germany should make no further comment necessary.

[Onur]

I never said they 'flooded' Turkey, I was talking in regards to other places. I did say that Armenians have settled over there, however.

The armenians nowadays in turkey are armenians who are living there for generations there. Believe me no armenian want to go to turkey and settle there.
Yes indeed the people from Armenian state flooded to Turkey and they are still coming everyday. Our border with them is closed but they are coming over Georgia.

There are only 40-45.000 native Armenians in Turkey but there are also over 100.000 illegal migrants who came Turkey during the last decade. They are illegally residing in Turkey, doing shitty jobs and working as a home servant or as babysitters for the local Armenians.

If you consider that the population of Armenian state is around 3 million, 100.000 people is a lot.

[gregorius]

Yes indeed the people from Armenian state flooded to Turkey and they are still coming everyday. Our border with them is closed but they are coming over Georgia.

There are only 40-45.000 native Armenians in Turkey but there are also over 100.000 illegal migrants who came Turkey during the last decade. They are illegally residing in Turkey, doing shitty jobs and working as a home servant or as babysitters for the local Armenians.

If you consider that the population of Armenian state is around 3 million, 100.000 people is a lot.

ah yes i see, not 100 000 but more like 25 000.

there are in istanbul 70 000 armenians living for a very long time. so 40 000 in turkey isnt a good guess

[kabeiros]

They do exist, they just call themselves Turks today. Also, anyone can use the same argument because everyone today is mixed in one way or another. The same argument can be made for Armenia because the speak an irregular language in the region... So It's pointless trust meWhen the Turks invaded in Anatolia there were not any Hittites or Hattians there. This people had already disappeared by 1000 BC and you want us to believe that Turks are Hittites? The peoples who have settled in Anatolia are (from past to present):

-Hattians,
-Hurrians
-Hittites, Lydians, Carians, Lycians, Mysians
-Phrygians
-Greeks
-Armenians
-Medes
-Persians
-Seljuk Turks
-Ottoman Turks

What makes the last people who came in, similar to the first people who originated there, thousands of years ago?

[Onur]

ah yes i see, not 100 000 but more like 25 000.

there are in istanbul 70 000 armenians living for a very long time. so 40 000 in turkey isnt a good guess
Found this from google;

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64116

Ofc it`s impossible to know the correct number because they are illegals but it says that the head editor of an Armenian minority newspaper says that there was about 25.000 illegals only in Istanbul in 2010 but i know there are more in Blacksea side and in Izmir. So the real number can easily be around 100.000 today.

I read from the article that they blatantly ask for a Turkish passport for their children too. How outrageous this is while their state accusing us with the so-called genocide, refuses to recognize our border with them and occupying Azerbaijani land at the same time.

I hope we can elect a government who can kick these Armenian illegals out from Turkey. They are leeching our money and sending to Armenian state, so they can fund their anti-Turkish activities. These parasites needs to get the fuck outta here. They can go to their beloved christian Europe or go back to their own shithole.



When the Turks invaded in Anatolia there were not any Hittites or Hattians there. This people had already disappeared by 1000 BC and you want us to believe that Turks are Hittites?
If some people are descendants of Hittites and Lydians, then it`s surely the Greeks and Armenians, not Turks.

[gregorius]

Found this from google;

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64116

Ofc it`s impossible to know the correct number but it says that the head editor of an Armenian minority newspaper says that there was about 25.000 illegals only in Istanbul but i know there are more in Blacksea side and in Izmir. So the real number can easily be around 100.000.

I read from the article that they blatantly ask for a Turkish passport for their children too. How outrageous this is while their state accusing us with the so-called genocide, refuses to recognize our border with them and occupying Azerbaijani land at the same time.

I hope we can elect a government who can kick these Armenian illegals out from Turkey. They are leeching our money and sending to Armenian state, so they can fund their anti-Turkish activities. These parasites needs to fuck off from our state. They can go to Europe or go back to their own shithole.

a yes its time for the turkish stories i see.

you know how we claim karabach is actually the same thing you claim anatolia
the difference is that we got some very big history in karabach(artsahk) ;) so its very funny to see

have you read the case objective ? without the parental controlle modus on ?

Calling us parasites the hypocritism. why are you offending my people? Typical turkish behaviour, thats the mainpoint i think why so many european people dont like turks, they cannot behave them.

[Partizan]

a yes its time for the turkish stories i see.

Calling us parasites the hypocritism. why are you offending my people? Typical turkish behaviour, thats the mainpoint i think why so many european people dont like turks, they cannot behave them.

Why are you jumping into anti-Turkish threads today? The same question.

[gregorius]

Why are you jumping into anti-Turkish threads today? The same question.

Nothing anti-turkish ive could aslo vote for the first option and than it would be pro turkic like some other people did. I just give my opinion

[Sophie]

When the Turks invaded in Anatolia there were not any Hittites or Hattians there. This people had already disappeared by 1000 BC and you want us to believe that Turks are Hittites? The peoples who have settled in Anatolia are (from past to present):

-Hattians,
-Hurrians
-Hittites, Lydians, Carians, Lycians, Mysians
-Phrygians
-Greeks
-Armenians
-Medes
-Persians
-Seljuk Turks
-Ottoman Turks

What makes the last people who came in, similar to the first people who originated there, thousands of years ago?


You can say they all contributed to the ethnogenosis. But actually, the first would probably be the most important because in terms of genetic makeup, they are the base... The others are more like decor.

Anyway... Even the Turkic "identity" has existed in Anatolia for nearly as long as Armenian one.

[Onur]

Calling us parasites the hypocritism. why are you offending my people? Typical turkish behaviour, thats the mainpoint i think why so many european people dont like turks, they cannot behave them.
You fcking idiot, Turkish people in Europe have permanent stay and work visas and they are living legally in there. They work and pay taxes.

I call your Armenians as parasites because they are illegally staying and working here as well as sending OUR MONEY to Armenian state who does nothing but involving anti-Turkish activities. Obviously they don't pay any taxes at all because their very presence here is ILLEGAL.

I hope you continue to agitate us more with your "genocide" fairytales and give us a pretext to kick these parasites out from Turkey.

[kabeiros]

You can say they all contributed to the ethnogenosis. But actually, the first would probably be the most important because in terms of genetic makeup, they are the base... The others are more like decor. Any proof about that

[gregorius]

You fcking idiot, Turkish people in Europe have permanent stay and work visas and they live in there legally.

I call your Armenians as parasites because they are illegally staying and working here as well as sending OUR MONEY to Armenian state who does nothing but involving anti-Turkish activities.

I hope you continue to agitate us more with your "genocide" fairytales and give us a pretext to kick these parasites out from Turkey.

dude our state isnt anti turkish dude.
We can all read objective papers and see the news, you should try it sometimes.
The thruth is revealing :D

[Albion]

When the Turks invaded in Anatolia there were not any Hittites or Hattians there. This people had already disappeared by 1000 BC and you want us to believe that Turks are Hittites? The peoples who have settled in Anatolia are (from past to present):

-Hattians,
-Hurrians
-Hittites, Lydians, Carians, Lycians, Mysians
-Phrygians
-Greeks
-Armenians
-Medes
-Persians
-Seljuk Turks
-Ottoman Turks

What makes the last people who came in, similar to the first people who originated there, thousands of years ago?

A lot of those earlier peoples would have been absorbed in time into the Greek and Armenian populations. Turks can only really have ancestry from them via any absorbed Greeks and Armenians.

[gregorius]

You can say they all contributed to the ethnogenosis. But actually, the first would probably be the most important because in terms of genetic makeup, they are the base... The others are more like decor.

Anyway... Even the Turkic "identity" has existed in Anatolia for nearly as long as Armenian one.

Well from 600 bc to 1900 the armenian identy existed in anatolia,thats 2700 years.

Thats a long time you know:
The seljuk dynasty came in 1000AC so the earlist central asian people are living 1000 years.

So i dont know how you calculated it

[Pecheneg]

You can say they all contributed to the ethnogenosis. But actually, the first would probably be the most important because in terms of genetic makeup, they are the base... The others are more like decor.

Anyway... Even the Turkic "identity" has existed in Anatolia for nearly as long as Armenian one.

Tannis believe me we have much more Turkic (Turkmen-Oghuz) ancestry than you assimilated semito-mesopotamians (iranians) have indo-european one.

[Jerreiche]

so 30 votes, and so far only 1 voting for the "turkey is trustworthy and a potential ally" option whereas "Turkey is Dangerous" accounts for 40% of the votes alone.


nuff said. That much we want Turks in Europe.

[Queen B]

You fcking idiot, Turkish people in Europe have permanent stay and work visas and they are living legally in there. They work and pay taxes.

:mmmm:

[Midori]

They helped the Dutch - even my very ancestors - in the 17th century, they were long-time allies of Germany.

They might have helped your ancestors but they killed and persecuted mine for 500 years.

[Partizan]

They might have helped your ancestors but they killed and persecuted mine for 500 years.

Ehem, based on Byzantine expansion to Balkans in Medieval, I can guess you wouldn't be a "South Slav" now if there wouldn't be Ottomans :) Or Morea and Albania would be good colonies of Latins, so Albanians and a part of Greeks wouldn't have the identity they have now :)

Yeah, it was the savage barbarian Turks who let you all folks free about religion and language/culture :bored:

[TheMagnificent]

Ehem, based on Byzantine expansion to Balkans in Medieval, I can guess you wouldn't be a "South Slav" now if there wouldn't be Ottomans :) Or Morea and Albania would be good colonies of Latins, so Albanians and a part of Greeks wouldn't have the identity they have now :)

Yeah, it was the savage barbarian Turks who let you all folks free about religion and language/culture :bored:

Look, this is how savage and oppressive those Turks were...


"I, the Sultan Khan the Conqueror, hereby declare the whole world that, the Bosnian Franciscans granted with this sultanate ferman are under my protection. And I command that: No one shall disturb or give harm to these people and their churches! They shall live in peace in my state. These people who have become emigrants, shall have security and liberty. They may return to their monasteries which are located in the borders of my state. No one from my empire notable, viziers, clerks or my maids will break their honour or give any harm to them! No one shall insult, put in danger or attack these lives, properties, and churches of these people! Also, what and those these people have brought from their own countries have the same rights... By declaring this ferman, I swear on my sword by the holy name of Allah who has created the ground and sky, Allah's prophet Mohammed, and seven prophets that; no one from my citizens will react or behave the opposite of this ferman!"

Mehmed II's ferman on the freedom of the Bosnian Franciscans

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Adhanema_Lasva.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Aura]

Ehem, based on Byzantine expansion to Balkans in Medieval, I can guess you wouldn't be a "South Slav" now if there wouldn't be Ottomans :) Or Morea and Albania would be good colonies of Latins, so Albanians and a part of Greeks wouldn't have the identity they have now :)

Yeah, it was the savage barbarian Turks who let you all folks free about religion and language/culture :bored:

What the hell are you talking about? stop dreaming, otoman occupation was 100 times worse than other occupation, talking from albanian perspective, you almost destroyed us as a nation and culture,and my people lost millions of albanians who are assimilated in Turkey now.

Anyway according to the tread I think Turkey should never join EU (and dont think it will happen) that is good not even for EU but also for Turkey itself, eruopean culture and Turkeys are not compatible. I also dont see any kind of threats from Turkey now so EU and Turkey should be good allies.

[Partizan]

What the hell are you talking about? stop dreaming, otoman occupation was 100 times worse than other occupation, talking from albanian perspective, you almost destroyed us as a nation and culture,and my people lost millions of albanians who are assimilated in Turkey now.

Destroyed? You can still speak Albanian, right? Just compare it to Mexico, we know that all Jesuit Spaniards burnt all documents about Aztec religion, most information we have about them are just via diaries of some Spanish priests. Can you think about Ottomans destroying churches and burning all documents, catechisms and Bibles? No, since we have tolerance in our culture(unfortunately).

[Don Arb]

Destroyed? You can still speak Albanian, right? Just compare it to Mexico, we know that all Jesuit Spaniards burnt all documents about Aztec religion, most information we have about them are just via diaries of some Spanish priests. Can you think about Ottomans destroying churches and burning all documents, catechisms and Bibles? No, since we have tolerance in our culture(unfortunately).
You cant make such parallelism, native americans got assimilated by europeans because they were inferior to them,and it was colonization compared with otoman occupation which was exploation,also for barbarian turks european culture was superior and they got civilization by them.

[ficuscarica]

Definetely last option form the poll. Taking a look at Germany should make no further comment necessary.

+1 :thumb001:

[Partizan]

You cant make such parallelism, native americans got assimilated by europeans because they were inferior to them,while for barbarian turks european culture was superior and they got civilization by them.

Inferior? You don't know anything about Aztec, Mayan, Toltec, Olmec etc. civilizations IMO. While people of Iberia were still painting caves, Toltecs and Olmecs were building monuments which we still can't riddle.

BTW those barbarian Turks destroyed primitive Balkan feudalism and brought a rather developed system, Tımar. You can check, "Islam and Capitalism" of Maxime Rodinson about that. He says, Ottomans had a way better and progressive land system than rest of Europe, which had more chance to develop "Capitalism Social Stage". Besides, famous Romanian historian Nicolae Iorga implies that Turkish villagers in Balkans were way more civilized than their Christian neighbors, in his book of five volumes, History of Ottoman Empire.

[alb0zfinest]

Destroyed? You can still speak Albanian, right? Just compare it to Mexico, we know that all Jesuit Spaniards burnt all documents about Aztec religion, most information we have about them are just via diaries of some Spanish priests. Can you think about Ottomans destroying churches and burning all documents, catechisms and Bibles? No, since we have tolerance in our culture(unfortunately).

The Ottomans attempted to impose their language, their customs, and religion on Albanians. Forcefully, and sometimes with false choices. Albanians still speak Albanian because the ottomans didn't have total control of Albania. The people were too widely scattered and some refused to pay taxes, serve in the army, or surrender their arms. Plus the people were in constant rebellion.
Ottoman Conquest caused great suffering and vast destruction of the country’s economy, commerce, art, and culture. Moreover, to escape persecution by their conquerors, about one-fourth of the country’s population fled abroad to southern Italy, Sicily, and the Dalmatian coast. The Ottomans even went as far as abducting children, training them to hate anyone not Turkish since birth and making them kill their own people. Quite pathetic if you ask me. They unlike other empires build almost nothing. Look at the Roman empire for example and what they left in other countries.
And of course you didn't destroy churches you just painted over them, and made them into mosques.

[Partizan]

The Ottomans attempted to impose their language, their customs, and religion on Albanians. Forcefully, and sometimes with false choices. Albanians still speak Albanian because the ottomans didn't have total control of Albania. The people were too widely scattered and some refused to pay taxes, serve in the army, or surrender their arms. Plus the people were in constant rebellion.

Well, again the South America example. Despite there are still pure-Amerindians who practice pre-Christian beliefs, because Spaniards also didn't control some parts of their colonies, Spaniards assimilated most of them. So? We could assimilate Albanians and other Balkanites as well.


Ottoman Conquest caused great suffering and vast destruction of the country’s economy, commerce, art, and culture. Moreover, to escape persecution by their conquerors, about one-fourth of the country’s population fled abroad to southern Italy, Sicily, and the Dalmatian coast. The Ottomans even went as far as abducting children, training them to hate anyone not Turkish since birth and making them kill their own people. Quite pathetic if you ask me. They unlike other empires build almost nothing. Look at the Roman empire for example and what they left in other countries.

Ehem, modern city of Tirana was built by Ottomans :picard1: I guess, if there wouldn't be Ottoman Empire, Albania would fall either under Latin rule or under Byzantine role. I don't think none of those two would let you live your religion/culture.

About the "abducting children" thing, of course it is not a nice thing if you look at with 21.th century's glasses. Though, if you compare Ottomans to their peers(Spanish, Portuguese, French etc.), unlike them, Ottomans never had an aim for Turkifying/Islamifying people as a whole.


And of course you didn't destroy churches you just painted over them, and made them into mosques.

That's why many churches remain :picard1: According to Ottoman law, only the biggest church of the city/town can be converted to mosque. Quite naive and lame, if you ask me. Ottomans had to learn something from, angelic(!!), civilized(!!!) Western Europeans:

http://clio.missouristate.edu/chuchiak/New%20Webpage%20Images/Inquisition%20in%20Mexico1.gif

At least now there wouldn't be some ungrateful people who blame Ottomans for everything.

[alb0zfinest]

Well, again the South America example. Despite there are still pure-Amerindians who practice pre-Christian beliefs, because Spaniards also didn't control some parts of their colonies, Spaniards assimilated most of them. So? We could assimilate Albanians and other Balkanites as well.

Dude what the Spanish did to their colonies is definitely bad and i do not deny that. But the ottomans wrecked the economy, commerce, culture and caused great destruction to the environment of Albania. The laws they had and the fact that nothing positive came out of their rule, was like slowly killing them


Ehem, modern city of Tirana was built by Ottomans :picard1: I guess, if there wouldn't be Ottoman Empire, Albania would fall either under Latin rule or under Byzantine role. I don't think none of those two would let you live your religion/culture.

hahah Tirana built by the Ottomans?:picard1: Tirana began proper development under King Zog (very much after the fall of the ottoman empire) although he didn't do much. When Tirana really started building was after the fall of communism, and it is today much more improved not by ottomans and not by anyone else but Albanians.
:picard1: Albania WAS UNDER bYZANTINE RULE AND ITS IDENTITY AND ECONOMY SUSTAINED JUST FINE. Yes the Albanians would've hated Byzantine rule so much that when the Ottomans began to conquer Albania 1/4 of them moved to what was previously known as the Byzantine Empire.:picard1:

About the "abducting children" thing, of course it is not a nice thing if you look at with 21.th century's glasses. Though, if you compare Ottomans to their peers(Spanish, Portuguese, French etc.), unlike them, Ottomans never had an aim for Turkifying/Islamifying people as a whole.

What the hell are you talking about? Of course they did. You realize that they taxed the Christians very very heavily, and the Muslims less which was one of their ways of trying to convert people. They knew that the people couldn't afford those taxes which in fact is the primary reason alot of Albanians converted to Islam.


That's why many churches remain :picard1: According to Ottoman law, only the biggest church of the city/town can be converted to mosque. Quite naive and lame, if you ask me. Ottomans had to learn something from, angelic(!!), civilized(!!!) Western Europeans:

http://clio.missouristate.edu/chuchiak/New%20Webpage%20Images/Inquisition%20in%20Mexico1.gif

At least now there wouldn't be some ungrateful people who blame Ottomans for everything.
Churches in Greece and Serbia remain because their rule was very different from ours, much less strict. But in Albania itself that is just bs.

responses in bold

[Partizan]

Dude what the Spanish did to their colonies is definitely bad and i do not deny that. But the ottomans wrecked the economy, commerce, culture and caused great destruction to the environment of Albania. The laws they had and the fact that nothing positive came out of their rule, was like slowly killing them

Even environment destruction? :picard1: :picard1: :picard1: Well, I give Spanish example for comparing Ottoman yoke to another peer state's yoke.


hahah Tirana built by the Ottomans?: picard1 Tirana began proper development under King Zog (very much after the fall of the ottoman empire) although he didn't do much. When Tirana really started building was after the fall of communism, and it is today much more improved not by ottomans and not by anyone else but Albanians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulejman_Bargjini

It is right, he was an ethnic Albanian but when he found the city, he was an Ottoman Pasha actually :) I am sorry, deny that as much as you want but Ottomans brought civilization and stability to Balkans. After Ottomans have gone, Balkans turned to an exact shithole of conflicts and battles, since First Balkan War to Kosovo War. Same with Middle East.


What the hell are you talking about? Of course they did. You realize that they taxed the Christians very very heavily, and the Muslims less which was one of their ways of trying to convert people.

Better than burning people's cultural heritage, raping and killing them etc. I am just taking the issue with glasses of medieval, just compare to colonial Western European states.


They knew that the people couldn't afford those taxes which in fact is the primary reason alot of Albanians converted to Islam.

Ehem, it is something you Albos should question. The same was done to Bulgarians, Serbians and Greeks too. They are still Christians though.


Churches in Greece and Serbia remain because their rule was very different from ours, much less strict. But in Albania itself that is just bs.


When Albania came under Ottoman influence in 15th century the Orthodox people of Albania were members of the Archbishopric of Ohrid which was officially recognized by the Ottoman Empire.[10] Following the Ottoman conquest in the 15th century, a slow conversion of Albanians to Islam started. By mid-19th century because of the Tanzimat reforms that had started in 1839 the majority of Albanians had become Muslim. The Tanzimat reform that mostly decreased the number of Christians in Albania was the obligatory draft for non-Muslim soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Autocephalous_Church_of_Albania

[Anusiya]

Turks cannot escape their Ottoman past, it's the same mindset again and again. "It was good back then, you should have listened." If it was really good it should have lasted longer but it didn't, simple as that.

I dislike being called Byzantine, and I pursue to fulfill my state's objectives, not to restore some kind of "Greek" empire. Because it wasn't Greek, it was mostly working on Roman law and administration.

But the Turk cannot accept it was the same with them and Iran. They want both an Ottoman Empire and a perfectly Turkish one. Now, how can that be not schizophrenic from every aspect?

[Methmatician]

Considering how Turkey's total contribution over their 500 years of occupation was a number of mosques and Islam coupled with the fact they continue to be a negative force in the region. I would say foe.

I don't know about that. The Turks are pretty advanced; they had an empire for 800 years. There was an exhibition in Istanbul on inventions from Turkey, check it out here (http://www.1001inventions.com/istanbul).

[Xenomorph]

Regardless of one's own opinion on Turkey, one cannot deny that it is a strategically important country that straddles the bridge between the Islamic and Western world. It would be in Europeans' best interest to have friendly relations with Turkey.

[ficuscarica]

Turkey is not a bridge, it´s ruled by an islamist and every year Christians get killed in Turkey. It also oppresses the Kurds and denies the Armenian genocide. It´s an islamist country with a violent nationalism. They are not a bridge, they are one of the centers of the islamic world.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Turkish authorities refused to accept conversion of Christians because they depended on the Jizya tax. The taxation of Balkan Christians constituted 1/3 of imperial revenue. Allowing conversion of aforementioned Christians would have reduced revenue hugely since other regions like Anatolia or the Levant weren't very productive. The Ottoman Sultanate wasn't eternally merciful and wanted to save Balkan Christians from persecution. That's a ridiculous notion. Also do remember many Turkish Sultans were incapable and locked up in a room while their mother and regent ruled the empire. Certainly one of the contributing factors to why the Ottomans never developed a civilization of any significance and only exported mosques, Islam and gypsies.

[Incal]

Well, again the South America example. Despite there are still pure-Amerindians who practice pre-Christian beliefs, because Spaniards also didn't control some parts of their colonies, Spaniards assimilated most of them. So? We could assimilate Albanians and other Balkanites as well.

The difference is that the Spanish conquest left positive things in the Old World while Ottoman rule didn't leave a single useful thing in the balkans, like some other poster said, just mosques and troubling minorities. That's also why from all the former Empires that had control over other territories, Turkey is the only one that's not First World.

[Onur]

They might have helped your ancestors but they killed and persecuted mine for 500 years.
If this would be true then you wouldn't exist today. Let alone 500 years, Turks could have destroy you and all your memory in few decades in 1370s, when they first subjugated all Balkans.

If they would have done that, then all Balkans would be a Turkish only land and you would be in Mecca now, praying to Allah. The christian Balkans would be a memory of distant past from medieval era where no one even remembers today except history books.



Turks cannot escape their Ottoman past, it's the same mindset again and again. "It was good back then, you should have listened." If it was really good it should have lasted longer but it didn't, simple as that.
Anusiya, you mentioned something like "Turks are not ready for EU" in your previous post and now this bullshit again.

Turks are not escaping from their Ottoman past, on the contrary we embrace and rejoice it. Who wants to escape from 650 years of glorious past, an empire who ruled in 3 different continents? The Ottoman empire was the largest and greatest empire in the world after Roman one but it continued to survive `till the past century unlike the Roman empire.

Who wants to escape from this;
http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/86/64886-004-2353B724.gif

There are about 100 countries in our former Ottoman lands today. This shows the greatness of the Ottoman empire, having ability to rule upon all these people for 650 years.

I don't care how you perceive eastern Roman empire yourself. Already, there is a ~400 years of gap between the destruction of it and the foundation of neo-Greek state. Also, modern Greek state didn't get formed by the Greeks themselves but by the western European philhellenes, and with the participation of delusional christian Albanians.

[kabeiros]

If this would be true then you wouldn't exist today. Let alone 500 years, Turks could have destroy you and all your memory in few decades in 1370s, when they first subjugated all Balkans.

If they would have done that, then all Balkans would be a Turkish only land and you would be in Mecca now, praying to Allah. The christian Balkans would be a memory of distant past from medieval era where no one even remembers today except history books. LOL Ignorant megalomaniac Turk :D:D



The Ottoman empire was the largest and greatest empire in the world after Roman one but it continued to survive `till the past century unlike the Roman empire . We have to explain to Onur even the simplest think, like 1+1=2. The Ottoman empire was established ON the territories of the Roman empire, how could the Roman outlast the Ottoman???? :confused::confused::confused:




Already, there is a ~400 years of gap between the destruction of it 400 years of slavery under the Ottomans

and the foundation of neo-Greek state. after the Greek revolution against Turkish tyrrany

ps neo-Greek state is wrong, there never was a paleo-Greek state. In ancient Greece there were kingdoms or city-states and later there were empires.

[gregorius]

If this would be true then you wouldn't exist today. Let alone 500 years, Turks could have destroy you and all your memory in few decades in 1370s, when they first subjugated all Balkans.

If they would have done that, then all Balkans would be a Turkish only land and you would be in Mecca now, praying to Allah. The christian Balkans would be a memory of distant past from medieval era where no one even remembers today except history books.



Anusiya, you mentioned something like "Turks are not ready for EU" in your previous post and now this bullshit again.

Turks are not escaping from their Ottoman past, on the contrary we embrace and rejoice it. Who wants to escape from 650 years of glorious past, an empire who ruled in 3 different continents? The Ottoman empire was the largest and greatest empire in the world after Roman one but it continued to survive `till the past century unlike the Roman empire.

Who wants to escape from this;
http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/86/64886-004-2353B724.gif

There are about 100 countries in our former Ottoman lands today. This shows the greatness of the Ottoman empire, having ability to rule upon all these people for 650 years.

I don't care how you perceive eastern Roman empire yourself. Already, there is a ~400 years of gap between the destruction of it and the foundation of neo-Greek state. Also, modern Greek state didn't get formed by the Greeks themselves but by the western European philhellenes, and with the participation of delusional christian Albanians.

dude cut the crap with that map, showing you azeri friends,
And nothing showing armenia

i said in a previous post that you should look at objective maps, and now youre showing this

[Midori]

I don´t count LunaRose´s vote as a European vote, because Bosnia is a loyal Turkish colony.
Between positive and negative votes it is 5:14 at the moment. That isn´t too bad.

Well, non-Europeans too have voted on the poll.

I'm not particularly hostile to Turkey btw, it's not like I want to nuke their country or something, I just don't see them as a friend of Europe because of our past.

[ficuscarica]

I am glad that the glorious Holy Roman Empire of German Nation resisted this force of evil. Just the thought of looking at a past under Turkish occupation makes me puke.

[Anusiya]

Anusiya, you mentioned something like "Turks are not ready for EU" in your previous post and now this bullshit again.

Turks are not escaping from their Ottoman past, on the contrary we embrace and rejoice it. Who wants to escape from 650 years of glorious past, an empire who ruled in 3 different continents? The Ottoman empire was the largest and greatest empire in the world after Roman one but it continued to survive `till the past century unlike the Roman empire.
There are about 100 countries in our former Ottoman lands today. This shows the greatness of the Ottoman empire, having ability to rule upon all these people for 650 years.


Of course it survived until the last century "Einstein", had the Anglosaxons developed the combustion engines before, you wouldn't even exist. Need a hint to find out what resource I am talking about?

Besides, during the Navarino battle, a single cannon shot from a British galleon, resulted in 10 turkish moat "kaiks" sinking. You were "dying" before the 1900's already. Essentially the "greatness" of your oh-so-vast empire lasted no more than 200 years. The Russians by the late 1600's were all over you.

There isn't anything "Ottoman" which survives to this day and constitutes some kind of pan-human cultural heritage. The Romans gave us law and architecture, the Greeks gave us philosophy and sciences, the Anglosaxons the transistor and the combustion engine, Americans the light-bulb, Italians the phone and you gave us the Lebanese baklava, the Indonesian shadow theater and the Roman baths.

Sorry, forgot the cave dwellings! How could I forget the cave dwellings!? :eusa_doh:
http://www.jmorganmarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/cave-houses-in-turkey-capadocia-300x225.jpg

[Don Arb]

Inferior? You don't know anything about Aztec, Mayan, Toltec, Olmec etc. civilizations IMO. While people of Iberia were still painting caves, Toltecs and Olmecs were building monuments which we still can't riddle.

BTW those barbarian Turks destroyed primitive Balkan feudalism and brought a rather developed system, Tımar. You can check, "Islam and Capitalism" of Maxime Rodinson about that. He says, Ottomans had a way better and progressive land system than rest of Europe, which had more chance to develop "Capitalism Social Stage". Besides, famous Romanian historian Nicolae Iorga implies that Turkish villagers in Balkans were way more civilized than their Christian neighbors, in his book of five volumes, History of Ottoman Empire.

Exaclty, when nomad turks came in Europe they already saw uncivilized europeans living in sophisticated cities like Constantinople and under law system like codex Justinian unlike civilized nomad turks from mongolia steppes living in shades.

[Graus]

I am glad that the glorious Holy Roman Empire of German Nation resisted this force of evil. Just the thought of looking at a past under Turkish occupation makes me puke.

Give it a few more decades under the current political climate and we may find out.

[Pecheneg]

Exaclty, when nomad turks came in Europe they already saw uncivilized europeans living in sophisticated cities like Constantinople and under law system like codex Justinian unlike civilized nomad turks from mongolia steppes living in shades.

yea true, Ottomans were uncivilized barbarians compared to highly civilized mountain shiptar societies of medieval.

[Sultan Suleiman]

The Ottomans attempted to impose their language, their customs, and religion on Albanians. Forcefully, and sometimes with false choices. Albanians still speak Albanian because the ottomans didn't have total control of Albania.

You are kidding me...

Albanian was one of the "Imperial languages of the Empire", there were no attempts to "force Turkish" on you before you Albos started to follow the principles of revisionism from Serbian "history".

[Don Arb]

yea true, Ottomans were uncivilized barbarians compared to highly civilized mountain shiptar societies of medieval.

We were very succesfull in every empire, we had imperators in Roman and Byzantine empire also great worriers.

The funny thing is that you identify yourself more with mongolians than europeans.cool, keep going.

[Partizan]

Turks cannot escape their Ottoman past, it's the same mindset again and again. "It was good back then, you should have listened." If it was really good it should have lasted longer but it didn't, simple as that.

I dislike being called Byzantine, and I pursue to fulfill my state's objectives, not to restore some kind of "Greek" empire. Because it wasn't Greek, it was mostly working on Roman law and administration.

But the Turk cannot accept it was the same with them and Iran. They want both an Ottoman Empire and a perfectly Turkish one. Now, how can that be not schizophrenic from every aspect?

Well, I never see being "Turk" and being "Ottoman" as contrasting things. It was the Turks, of Kayı tribe, who created Ottoman Empire. Unlike Byzantines, whom's first dynasty wasn't even Greek, Ottoman empire had the Turkic direct paternal line. Unlike European and Middle Eastern neighbors of us, the dynasty of empire was always the same in Ottomans. So, of course we have right to claim Ottomans as our ancestors. Like Seljuks, Oghuz Yabgu State, Göktürks etc.


Turkish authorities refused to accept conversion of Christians because they depended on the Jizya tax. The taxation of Balkan Christians constituted 1/3 of imperial revenue. Allowing conversion of aforementioned Christians would have reduced revenue hugely since other regions like Anatolia or the Levant weren't very productive. The Ottoman Sultanate wasn't eternally merciful and wanted to save Balkan Christians from persecution. That's a ridiculous notion.

:bored:

Einstein, I do not ask about the reason why Ottomans did not force you guys to be nice and submissive Turkified Muslims, I am just sick and tired of that, you guys talk like Ottomans did not leave any single Balkanite alive. Based on what Latins have done in Fourth Crusades to Byzantines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade) or what Central-West Europeans have done against each other because of sect differences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Wars_of_Religion) , you must count yourselves lucky for Ottoman stability and tolerance for 600 years. If Ottomans wouldn't be there, probably Balkans would be divided between Hungarians(or Germans), Latins and Byzantines, therefore none of you could speak your "-ski, -ska" language :wavey001:


Also do remember many Turkish Sultans were incapable and locked up in a room while their mother and regent ruled the empire. Certainly one of the contributing factors to why the Ottomans never developed a civilization of any significance and only exported mosques, Islam and gypsies.

1.You can talk about that situation after Suleyman the Magnificient's death. Otherwise, until Selim II, most of Sultans were both talented poets, brave warriors and smart politicians at the same time.

2.That much ungratefulness? Not only mosques but also kervansarais, schools, hospitals, bridges and many more things. (http://www.chwb.org/regional/publications/Centres%20and%20peripheries%20in%20Ottoman%20archi tecture-%20Rediscovering%20a%20Balkan%20heritage.pdf) If I wouldn't know that you were a troll who will praise Ottoman Empire even more than me after some months, I would think that you have an inferiority complex about Turks since they constructed infrastructure of cities you live :)


The difference is that the Spanish conquest left positive things in the Old World while Ottoman rule didn't leave a single useful thing in the balkans, like some other poster said, just mosques and troubling minorities. That's also why from all the former Empires that had control over other territories, Turkey is the only one that's not First World.

:bored:

First of all, Spanish conquest committed one of the greatest cultural crimes in the World. We know, Aztecs had a great astrological system, they even counted one year(World's tour around sun) as 365,44 days, just one order missing than modern one. If you check architecture of pre-Columbian observatories, it seems they knew precession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) way before super-duper Hellenes and other Old World civilizations. We also know the perfect architecture of them, especially about pyramids. Achievements of Mayans and Incas, also older civilizations like Olmecs, Toltecs and some ancient sites like El Brujo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Brujo) show, their civilization was definitely not below European one. If Spaniards wouldn't burn and destroy their religious documents, which probably consisted a lot of astrological truth maybe we don't know, now humanity would be more advanced than current situation.

Secondly, Turkey's situation is different. You like to consider whining Balkanites as historians with PhD from Harvard, however unlike what is said in their non-senses, Ottomans mostly had positive effects on those Balkan peasants(Even a Romanian, Nicolae Iorga admitted that). If Turkey is not first world, it is because of change in trade cycle of the world after Geographical Explores. Otherwise, from Tımar system to miniatures and Ebru art; from warfare tactics to astrological and mechanical achievements, Ottomans were above their European peers.



There isn't anything "Ottoman" which survives to this day and constitutes some kind of pan-human cultural heritage. The Romans gave us law and architecture, the Greeks gave us philosophy and sciences, the Anglosaxons the transistor and the combustion engine, Americans the light-bulb, Italians the phone and you gave us the Lebanese baklava, the Indonesian shadow theater and the Roman baths.

Sorry, forgot the cave dwellings! How could I forget the cave dwellings!? :eusa_doh:
http://www.jmorganmarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/cave-houses-in-turkey-capadocia-300x225.jpg

http://islamsci.mcgill.ca/RASI/BEA/Taqi_al-Din_BEA.htm


Taqī al‐Dīn's most important work in astronomy is entitled Sidrat muntahā al‐afkār fī malakūt al‐falak al‐dawwār (= al‐Zīj al‐Shāhinshāhī). This work was prepared according to the results of the observations in Egypt and Istanbul in order to correct and complete Zīj‐i Ulugh Beg, a project originally conceived in Egypt and furthered by the building of the Istanbul Observatory. In the first 40 pages of the work, Taqī al‐Dīn deals with trigonometric calculation. This is followed by discussions of astronomical clocks, heavenly circles, and so forth. In the following parts, he treats observational instruments and their use, the observations of lunar and solar motions, and trigonometric functions calculated according to sexagesimal. As was normal in the Islamic astronomical tradition, Taqī al‐Dīn used trigonometric functions such as sine, cosine, tangent, and cotangent rather than chords. Following the work done at the Samarqand Observatory, he developed a new method to find the exact value of sin 1°, which Jamshīd al‐Kāshī had put into the form of an equation of third degree. Additionally, Taqī al‐Dīn employed the method of “three observation points,” which he was the first to use for calculating solar parameters; apparently Tycho Brahe was aware of his work. For determining the longitudes and latitudes of the fixed stars, he used Venus, Aldebaran, and α Virginis (Spica), which are near the ecliptic (rather than the Moon), as reference stars. As a result of his observations, he found the eccentricity of the Sun to be 2° 0' and the annual motion of apogee 63″. Taqī al‐Dīn's values turn out to be more precise than those of Nicolaus Copernicus and Brahe. This provides evidence for the precision of Taqī al‐Dīn's methods of observation and calculation. It is thus a pity that the destruction of the observatory meant that Taqī al‐Dīn was unable to complete his observation program. Indeed in the absence of a conclusion to this Zīj, it can probably be concluded that the book was never completed.


Taqī al‐Dīn's works on physics and mechanics, besides being interesting in their own right, also have connections with astronomy. In 1559 while in Nablus, he wrote his al‐Kawākib al‐durriyya fī waḍʿ al‐bankāmāt al‐dawriyya, which dealt with mechanical‐automatic clocks for the first time in the Islamic and Ottoman world. In the foreword, Taqī al‐Dīn mentions that he benefited from using Samiz ʿAlī Pasha's private library and his collection of European mechanical clocks. In this work, Taqī al‐Dīn discusses various mechanical clocks from a geometrical–mechanical perspective. His second book on mechanics is the one he wrote when he was 26, al‐Ṭuruq al‐saniyya fī al‐ālāt al‐rūḥāniyya. In this work, Taqī al‐Dīn focuses on the geometrical‐mechanical structure of clocks previously examined by the Banū Mūsā and Abū al‐ʿIzz al‐Jazarī. In the field of physics and optics, Taqī al‐Dīn wrote Nawr ḥadīqat al‐abṣar wa‐nūr ḥaqīqat al‐Anẓar, which dealt with the structure of light, its diffusion and global refraction, and the relation between light and color.

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/flyers.html

Do you think it was the Wright Brothers who flied first?


Hezarfen Ahmet Celebi (sometimes spelled Hazarfen Ahmed Celebi) the most famous Turkish flyer, inspired by the studies by Leonardo Da Vinci and with some corrections and balancing adjustments, derived from studying the eagle in flight, finally, after nine experimental attempts, gave shape to his wing apparatus. His flight took place in 1638 from the 183 foot tall Galata Tower near the Bosphorus in Istanbul, during the reign of the Turkish Sultan Murad IV. The flight was successful. Hezarfen Celebi landed on the other side of the Bosphorus. With this success Hazarfen proved to be 200 years ahead of his time since it was two centuries later that comparable developements took place elsewhere. The event is recorded by writer and historian Evliya Celebi (traveller), an eye witness to the feat, in his book Seyahatname (a book of travel). The word Hezarfen means expert in 1000 sciences, in-fact, a reward of 1000 gold pieces was given to Hazarfen for his achievement.

About cultural achievements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iznik_pottery

Those potteries are unique to Turks.

Not to forget that, the World owes marching bands to Ottomans:


Marching band and military band: The marching band and military band both have their origins in the Ottoman military band, performed by the Janissary since the 16th century.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Muslim_world#Military


Exaclty, when nomad turks came in Europe they already saw uncivilized europeans living in sophisticated cities like Constantinople unlike civilized nomad turks from mongolia steppes living in shades.

:bored:

Just to remind you about science in rest of Turkic world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulugh_Beg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Abd_al-Ham%C4%ABd_ibn_Turk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Farabi

[Lithium]

Wasn't this thread created for the EUROPEANS to give their opinion?

[Englisc]

The poll results are turning out well. :thumb001:

[Leliana]

In fact yes, our cold war perception came to prove we're no threat to European existence.... So i personally can't say there are anti-western sentiments among them. I'm only smiling to people waiting for a reason of hostility(considering most of them are from ex-iron curtain sewers).
You're very ignorant and blind of European history. :picard2: There is no single year in our European history of the last 1100 years where Turks posed no threat to European regions and European people! It's an irrefutable constant of history and present age that the Turks are like boisterous dogs at our gates.

Have you forgotten the fall of the Byzantine Empire? Have you forgotten the century-long domination of the Ottoman Empire on the Balkans? Have you forgotten the reoccurring attempts to sack Central Europe and other parts of the continent? Have you forgotten their overbearance in the 20th century? Have you forgotten about the millions over millions Turkish immigrants in European countries who act and serve as vicegerents of the Turkish state? Have you forgotten about the political influence of the DITIB and other Turkish organizations who flood European countries with Mosques and 'Turkish cultural centers'? Have you forgotten about the Turkish crimes and Turkish pressure groups in Europe?

The Turks are in steady war against Europe, it's their cultural duty as the aggressive steppe volk and goat herders they are and it's their religious duty as the Muslim believers they are, their 'dschihad' to make the world to a 'House of Islam'. :mad:



Neither friend nor foe IMHO. However just to remind our Gallipoli, if someone will try to invade my land, we won't just sit and watch.
YOUR goddamn people are invading MY countries in increasing millions of numbers by plastering our streets with needless and infamous Turkish mosques, 'centers' and shops, by abusing our laws and welfare structures on a large scale, by turkifying and islamisizing our towns, by committing disproportional grave crimes and by leading a war through baby buggies.

What our European countries need to do is to expel your compratiots with the whip like stray dogs! We are in need of a new endeavour in our own countries to purify our lands from the pest with goes by the name 'Turks'. :stop00010:


Yeah, me too. These so-called "pro-European" people from ex-commie states are especially comical, like they are supposedly a member of "European society" since the beginning of the history :rolleyes:
You surprise me every day because each time I think that your posts can't become more dumb and waste, you prove me wrong.

The Eastern European countries had a disadvantagous and sorry era in their history under Communist dictatorship. But that era doesn't change an iota on the fact that the Eastern European countries who had the bad luck to dwell on the other side of the Iron Curtian are and were always an integral part of Europe and her history, part of our European cultural sphere and part of the people who constitute the term 'Europe'.

How dare you to talk about matters concering 'Europe'? Europe is something unknown and mysterious to you, Turk! You will never understand it and you will never have it. Intone some Anatolian mutton songs and mind your own business.



Why would they? They are (relatively) strong and autonomous, they're growing, they've managed to become secular and progressive, they're proud, they have their own culture, they have tourism, they have industry, and so on.
Turkey is changing to an Islamic country as we speak, Erdogan, his cabinet and the majority of the Turkish populace want to take that direction. Sorry but you sound like a brainwashed liberal at the moment. :( Appeasement with the everlasting enemy of Europe and the Occident is something we can't afford. You as a Greek person should know firsthand how evil and malicious the Turks are.


Look, this is how savage and oppressive those Turks were...

Cherrypicking letters of Ottoman sultans and leaders, huh? :bored: The truth is that the reality looked 'a bit' differently.

Excerpt of the theatening letter of Sultan Suleiman the Insane (you call him 'Magificant') to the defenders of Vienna:

“Let it be known that if you become Muslims, nothing will happen to you. But if you offer resistance, then by Allah the most sublime, your city will be reduced to ashes, and young and old slaughtered.”

Friendly, isn't he a warm guy? And Turks aren't megalomanic at all, that proves the introduction of the sultan to the King of France:

"I, sultan of sultans, king of kings, the shadow of God who bestows the crown to the monarchs on earth, the supreme ruler of the Mediterranean and Black Seas, the Balkans and Anatolia, Azerbaijan, Damascus and Halep, Egypt, Mecca and Medina, Jerusalem, and all of the Arab dominions, and Yemen, and the sultan and the supreme king of many nations,

I am the son of Sultan Selim Khan and grandson of Sultan Bayezid Khan, and you, King Francis, are the governor of the French province.

You have sent to my Gate, the sanctuary of many kings, a letter by the hand of your faithful servant Frangipani. He has made known to me how the enemy overran your country, so you are now a captive."

French people dared to dance and the friendly and liberal Sultan wasn't amused in one of his next letters:

"I am, who the khan of forty-eight kingdoms, Kanuni Sultan Suleiman Khan. According to report was given by ambassador, I heard of it was danced by your people as cling each other, men and women.
Because of we are contiguous, I'm worrying which is smudging of this sickness to my lands. İf it smudge and you don't terminate this sickness immediately, I will come with my victorious army and destroy you."

You Turks are nothing but a vile spawn, your elemental character is an evil and cunning one.


I prefer cooperation with new rising Asia ,not with falling Europe..
Future is in the east ,no more in the west
Uhm, the East Asian countries are copycats, they copy European technologies like cars and machines and are strong in industrial and internet espionage of European companies and technology centers. :rolleyes: Their downfall has already begun, the rising economy of China is flattening.

[Onur]

dude cut the crap with that map, showing you azeri friends, And nothing showing armenia

i said in a previous post that you should look at objective maps, and now youre showing this
You are being idiot again. Check the link of that picture. It`s from Britannica encyclopedia. If you have a problem with it, then you better contact them, not moan to me.

Also, was there an Armenian state while Ottoman empire was intact? No. So, why you are moaning about your petty Armenia`s nonexistence in that map?



It was the Turks, of Kayı tribe, who created Ottoman Empire. Unlike Byzantines, whom's first dynasty wasn't even Greek, Ottoman empire had the Turkic direct paternal line.
Partizan, i have to remind you something. Even the term "Byzantine" was an invention of western European philhellenes. It was the French philhellene Montesquieu who first used the term Byzantine instead of eastern Roman empire in 18th century for the first time ever. The eastern Romans (Rums as we call in Turkish) never used the term Byzantine themselves, while their state was intact before 1453 AD. Also the phanariots in Ottoman empire and the Istanbul church always called themselves as Romans but never as Greeks `till 1850s.

The western European philhellenes did this to separate Greek history from the Roman one. So, they tried to relate eastern Roman empire as "pure Greek" and separate from the western Roman empire.

This was a deliberate attempt of historical revision in the name of neo-hellenism. They did this to create an ideological base for the foundation of their pseudo-hellenic state in Ottoman Morea.

[memobekes]

The poll is open and this poll is intended for European Members of the Board only (So no Turks, no New Worlders or Antipodeans etc., in order to find a more or less relevant and representative data to the question)

The question is simple:

Do you consider Turkey to be a true friend of Europe, or rather a neutral/enemy force?

This poll is not about whether you are in favor or oppose Turkey's membership bid to the European Union.

In regard to Europe and Europeans, both to your own nation and the whole European region: Do you think as turkey as any other thing than dangerous aliens?

And don't start these kinda threads, clown. You are enticing others to troll, get that into that thick skull of yours dodo-head...

[Englisc]

You dumb idiot, you don't know jackshit about Turkey so don't talk about things you have no clue about. Now go take a hike you shit-for-brains...

Do you want me to prove it?


Turks are racially and culturally non-European

Racially:

Most Turks look like typical dark skinned Arabs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Turkish_people_in_Belgium.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06af5Pddo40Co/610x.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/10/21/world/21cnd-turkey1_600.jpg

Culturally: Turks ofcourse speak Central Asian Turkic language which ofcourse has no paralleled in Europe, they are also Muslim which is culturally hostile to Europe as we know.


and have proven to be dangerous to Europe both historically
Ottoman empire mainly, Turkey in it's modern form hasn't been around too long.


and in current mass immigration to Germany and other countries.
This one's obvious, for news stories about Turk immigrants in Europe see the blog I posted.

[ficuscarica]

Awesome post, Leliana! ATG 4 LIFE!

[Loki]

No more insults, or thread will be closed.

[archangel]

if we are not european then greeks,albanians,bulgarians etc are not europeans either.lol and do you really think a north european and a south or east europan have same culture?they are physically very different each other as well as culturally too.

[Lithium]

if we are not european then greeks,albanians,bulgarians etc are not europeans either.lol and do you really think a north european and a south or east europan have same culture?they are physically very different each other as well as culturally too.

Eu·ro·pe·an (yr-pn)
n.
1. A native or inhabitant of Europe.
2. A person of European descent.
adj.
Of or relating to Europe or its peoples, languages, or cultures.

[Trun]

if we are not european then greeks,albanians,bulgarians etc are not europeans either.lol and do you really think a north european and a south or east europan have same culture?they are physically very different each other as well as culturally too.

Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians are three of the oldest European ethnicities and were culturally and politically influenced and influencing the most important European empire of all times - the Roman Empire (later Byzantine). Greeks are the cultural fathers of Western Europe while Bulgarians of Slavic Europe.

What Turkey have contributed for European development, except introducing baklava and belly dances?

[Queen B]

Einstein, I do not ask about the reason why Ottomans did not force you guys to be nice and submissive Turkified Muslims, I am just sick and tired of that, you guys talk like Ottomans did not leave any single Balkanite alive.

Well, according to Onur, there is no single Greek anyway :D

[gregorius]

You are being idiot again. Check the link of that picture. It`s from Britannica encyclopedia. If you have a problem with it, then you better contact them, not moan to me.

Also, was there an Armenian state while Ottoman empire was intact? No. So, why you are moaning about your petty Armenia`s nonexistence in that map?



Partizan, i have to remind you something. Even the term "Byzantine" was an invention of western European philhellenes. It was the French philhellene Montesquieu who first used the term Byzantine instead of eastern Roman empire in 18th century for the first time ever. The eastern Romans (Rums as we call in Turkish) never used the term Byzantine themselves, while their state was intact before 1453 AD. Also the phanariots in Ottoman empire and the Istanbul church always called themselves as Romans but never as Greeks `till 1850s.

The western European philhellenes did this to separate Greek history from the Roman one. So, they tried to relate eastern Roman empire as "pure Greek" and separate from the western Roman empire.

This was a deliberate attempt of historical revision in the name of neo-hellenism. They did this to create an ideological base for the foundation of their pseudo-hellenic state in Ottoman Morea.

yes there was my dear ottoman friend, it was called the armenian kingdom cilicia or little armenia, you should look that up.

Why are you calling me an idiot? arent you a moderator, you should be more formal.
Thanks for the nice word about my country, you should visit it by yourself and see it, unfortunately i could not say the same thing about turkey.

[Pecheneg]

Why are you calling me an idiot? arent you a moderator, you should be more formal.


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You're very ignorant and blind of European history. :picard2: There is no single year in our European history of the last 1100 years where Turks posed no threat to European regions and European people! It's an irrefutable constant of history and present age that the Turks are like boisterous dogs at our gates.

Have you forgotten the fall of the Byzantine Empire? Have you forgotten the century-long domination of the Ottoman Empire on the Balkans? Have you forgotten the reoccurring attempts to sack Central Europe and other parts of the continent? Have you forgotten their overbearance in the 20th century? Have you forgotten about the millions over millions Turkish immigrants in European countries who act and serve as vicegerents of the Turkish state? Have you forgotten about the political influence of the DITIB and other Turkish organizations who flood European countries with Mosques and 'Turkish cultural centers'? Have you forgotten about the Turkish crimes and Turkish pressure groups in Europe?

The Turks are in steady war against Europe, it's their cultural duty as the aggressive steppe volk and goat herders they are and it's their religious duty as the Muslim believers they are, their 'dschihad' to make the world to a 'House of Islam'. :mad:


YOUR goddamn people are invading MY countries in increasing millions of numbers by plastering our streets with needless and infamous Turkish mosques, 'centers' and shops, by abusing our laws and welfare structures on a large scale, by turkifying and islamisizing our towns, by committing disproportional grave crimes and by leading a war through baby buggies.

What our European countries need to do is to expel your compratiots with the whip like stray dogs! We are in need of a new endeavour in our own countries to purify our lands from the pest with goes by the name 'Turks'. :stop00010:


You surprise me every day because each time I think that your posts can't become more dumb and waste, you prove me wrong.

The Eastern European countries had a disadvantagous and sorry era in their history under Communist dictatorship. But that era doesn't change an iota on the fact that the Eastern European countries who had the bad luck to dwell on the other side of the Iron Curtian are and were always an integral part of Europe and her history, part of our European cultural sphere and part of the people who constitute the term 'Europe'.

How dare you to talk about matters concering 'Europe'? Europe is something unknown and mysterious to you, Turk! You will never understand it and you will never have it. Intone some Anatolian mutton songs and mind your own business.


Turkey is changing to an Islamic country as we speak, Erdogan, his cabinet and the majority of the Turkish populace want to take that direction. Sorry but you sound like a brainwashed liberal at the moment. :( Appeasement with the everlasting enemy of Europe and the Occident is something we can't afford. You as a Greek person should know firsthand how evil and malicious the Turks are.


Cherrypicking letters of Ottoman sultans and leaders, huh? :bored: The truth is that the reality looked 'a bit' differently.

Excerpt of the theatening letter of Sultan Suleiman the Insane (you call him 'Magificant') to the defenders of Vienna:

“Let it be known that if you become Muslims, nothing will happen to you. But if you offer resistance, then by Allah the most sublime, your city will be reduced to ashes, and young and old slaughtered.”

Friendly, isn't he a warm guy? And Turks aren't megalomanic at all, that proves the introduction of the sultan to the King of France:

"I, sultan of sultans, king of kings, the shadow of God who bestows the crown to the monarchs on earth, the supreme ruler of the Mediterranean and Black Seas, the Balkans and Anatolia, Azerbaijan, Damascus and Halep, Egypt, Mecca and Medina, Jerusalem, and all of the Arab dominions, and Yemen, and the sultan and the supreme king of many nations,

I am the son of Sultan Selim Khan and grandson of Sultan Bayezid Khan, and you, King Francis, are the governor of the French province.

You have sent to my Gate, the sanctuary of many kings, a letter by the hand of your faithful servant Frangipani. He has made known to me how the enemy overran your country, so you are now a captive."

French people dared to dance and the friendly and liberal Sultan wasn't amused in one of his next letters:

"I am, who the khan of forty-eight kingdoms, Kanuni Sultan Suleiman Khan. According to report was given by ambassador, I heard of it was danced by your people as cling each other, men and women.
Because of we are contiguous, I'm worrying which is smudging of this sickness to my lands. İf it smudge and you don't terminate this sickness immediately, I will come with my victorious army and destroy you."

You Turks are nothing but a vile spawn, your elemental character is an evil and cunning one.


Uhm, the East Asian countries are copycats, they copy European technologies like cars and machines and are strong in industrial and internet espionage of European companies and technology centers. :rolleyes: Their downfall has already begun, the rising economy of China is flattening.

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She is also a moderator, stop whining.

[gregorius]

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She is also a moderator, stop whining.

then she should also altough she's right, Its not the first time he actually is using bad language.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Eu·ro·pe·an (yr-pn)
n.
1. A native or inhabitant of Europe.
2. A person of European descent.
adj.
Of or relating to Europe or its peoples, languages, or cultures.

I'm not a person of European descent but I am a inhabitant of Europe and I speak a Indo European language (Kurdish) and Kurdish culture is similar (apparently) to those of the Balkans.

Can I vote?

[TheMagnificent]

I'm not a person of European descent but I am a inhabitant of Europe and I speak a Indo European language (Kurdish) and Kurdish culture is similar (apparently) to those of the Balkans.

Can I vote?

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8781/a5bd1c970eafcf7a5c8739f.gif

[Hurrem sultana]

I'm not a person of European descent but I am a inhabitant of Europe and I speak a Indo European language (Kurdish) and Kurdish culture is similar (apparently) to those of the Balkans.

Can I vote?

Kurdish culture is NOT similar to balkan culture sorry

[Albion]

I'm not a person of European descent but I am a inhabitant of Europe and I speak a Indo European language (Kurdish) and Kurdish culture is similar (apparently) to those of the Balkans.

Can I vote?

No. :p

[Dengizik]

I'm not a person of European descent but I am a inhabitant of Europe and I speak a Indo European language (Kurdish) and Kurdish culture is similar (apparently) to those of the Balkans.

Can I vote?

lolwut

[ChildOfTheJin]

Kurdish culture is NOT similar to balkan culture sorry

Apparently the Kurdish dance is:

Kurdish dance is a group of traditional hand-holding dances similar to those from the Balkans, Lebanon, and to Iraq

[ChildOfTheJin]

lolwut

Don't really think a Turk should be allowed to comment on Kurdish culture since you have been trying to destroy it for the past century

[ChildOfTheJin]

I'm not trying to show Kurds as European, we are near eastern and proud of it. But for a individual like me, born and raised in Europe with partly European blood, can't I vote on this?

[Onur]

Well, according to Onur, there is no single Greek anyway :D
Yes, because Greeks themselves willingly accepted Roman culture and Roman identity long before Ottoman empire existed. They started to express themselves as Romans and quickly disappeared from history around 4-5th century but later to be resurrected after 2000 years of gap by the western European philhellenes.

I am not alone in this either. When the western European philhellenes started to construct their mythical neo-hellenic state in Morea, the German philosopher Fallmerayer was brave enough to shout this truth for the first time in 1820s.



Why are you calling me an idiot? arent you a moderator, you should be more formal.
Yes i called you idiot because when i posted a map from the Britannica encyclopedia, you accused me by saying that i posted Turkish propaganda maps. I see that you edited your post now but that was what you said to me.

I have no regrets and i will continue to call as idiots for anyone who tries to accuse me with such stupidity in the future.

[Dombra]

I´ll rather be friend with Turkey than many other countries. But don´t turn your back jast incase

[Drawing-slim]

Turkey is already a better ally to europe then serbia and greece.

[gregorius]

Yes, because Greeks themselves willingly accepted Roman culture and Roman identity long before Ottoman empire existed. They started to express themselves as Romans and quickly disappeared from history around 4-5th century but later to be resurrected after 2000 years of gap by the western European philhellenes.

I am not alone in this either. When the western European philhellenes started to construct their mythical neo-hellenic state in Morea, the German philosopher Fallmerayer was brave enough to shout this truth for the first time in 1820s.



Yes i called you idiot because when i posted a map from the Britannica encyclopedia, you accused me by saying that i posted Turkish propaganda maps. I see that you edited your post now but that was what you said to me.

I have no regrets and i will continue to call as idiots for anyone who tries to accuse me with such stupidity in the future.

well i edited half a hour or somehting after. Yes you dont have regrets you are a very strong boy. Btw you were wrong he about the first part of youre nice speach :coffee:

[alb0zfinest]

Even environment destruction? :picard1: :picard1: :picard1: Well, I give Spanish example for comparing Ottoman yoke to another peer state's yoke.

Spanish this Spanish that. You aren't refuting my point that the Ottoman Empire was one of the worst empires in terms of what it left behind, how it treated the people they ruled etc etc, you are simply pointing out what the Spanish did doesn't exclude the fact that the Ottoman's were terrible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulejman_Bargjini

It is right, he was an ethnic Albanian but when he found the city, he was an Ottoman Pasha actually :) I am sorry, deny that as much as you want but Ottomans brought civilization and stability to Balkans. After Ottomans have gone, Balkans turned to an exact shithole of conflicts and battles, since First Balkan War to Kosovo War. Same with Middle East.

Founding a city is different from helping build it immensely. It's great that the founder of North Dakota founded North Dakota, but look at where North Dakota is today. Tirana may have been found by an Ottoman (He wasn't Turkish but lets just say he was) but it is what it is today because of the Albanians themselves.

Better than burning people's cultural heritage, raping and killing them etc. I am just taking the issue with glasses of medieval, just compare to colonial Western European states.

Well indirectly you were infact burning a peoples cultural heritage by attempting to assimilate them, forcefully even for that matter. The Ottomans killed plenty of people as well.



Ehem, it is something you Albos should question. The same was done to Bulgarians, Serbians and Greeks too. They are still Christians though.

Yes but the Albanians were much poorer. so they had no choice but to convert.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Autocephalous_Church_of_Albania
Responses in bold.

[Anusiya]

Greeks are the cultural fathers of Western Europe while Bulgarians of Slavic Europe.

What Turkey have contributed for European development, except introducing baklava and belly dances?

Bulgars not only are a part of Slavic Europe, but they are the descendants of the early Khaghanates of the Black Sea. These turkic branches contribution to Europe is also important. They kept enemies at bay from the late 200's AD.



Yes, because Greeks themselves willingly accepted Roman culture and Roman identity long before Ottoman empire existed. They started to express themselves as Romans and quickly disappeared from history around 4-5th century but later to be resurrected after 2000 years of gap by the western European philhellenes.

Willingly? The Roman occupation in order to be achieved had to be "bought" with endless rivers of blood. Check Emperor Sula's diaries and see for yourself. There is a huge difference between Romans and Italics.

[Albion]

Turkey is already a better ally to europe then serbia and greece.

Well, more useful as an ally anyway. Serbia isn't worth bothering with and sides with Russia anyway, and Greece isn't nearly as important as Turkey in geopolitical terms. Greece doesn't seem as keen on alliances either. It's basically forgotten all the support which Britain and France provided it in the war of independence (Britain also gave up it's Ionian Island colony to it). Instead we have them whining for some museum pieces back. :picard1:
Turkey on the other hand is quite a good ally of America and is also in NATO. By that it has become rather an established part of the Atlantic alliance system, but France and Germany are rather weary of it. The Anglosphere in general seems more positive about Turkey though, the British government wants it in the EU (I don't) and America uses it as a middle man in the near east.

[The Lively Rock]

I choose the last option.

Turks are racially and culturally non-European and have proven to be dangerous to Europe both historically and in current mass immigration to Germany and other countries.

Check out this blog.

http://stopturkey.blogspot.co.uk/
Racist people like you suck. Why are you even alive anyway ?
You're a disgrace of atheism. You got dogmas, your religion is racism itself.

[Queen B]

Yes, because Greeks themselves willingly accepted Roman culture and Roman identity long before Ottoman empire existed. They started to express themselves as Romans and quickly disappeared from history around 4-5th century but later to be resurrected after 2000 years of gap by the western European philhellenes.

Ιf that was the case, then we shouldn't have Byzantine/Eastern Roman empire.We would just have one empire, the Roman, up until the fall of it, and the rise of Ottoman. Don't you think?

But we didn't. The Eastern Roman empire was created and was different from the Roman empire for this reason : the strong Greek presence.
The official language from Latin became Greek. The culture was more Greek oriented, and the official religion from Roman polytheism was to Greek orthodox, plus the first borders of Byzantine empire was mostly within the areas with dominant Greek presence.
The Greekness of the Byzantine empire was neither a philleliness invention, but something proved not only by the nature, and the reason of creating of Eastern Roman (instead of just continuation of a unified Roman empire), but it is recorded by many sources from THAT period of time.
First of all, Byzantine empire, had several names, including Graikia , by its inhabitands, and Imperium Graecorum, by the west. ( I can provide you several sources tommorow , if you are interested)

Apart from this, the Greek presence is continious for thousands of years.
The are artifacts that support this claim, as well as texts/arts during all these years.
For a dissapeared nation, we managed to survive pretty well :thumb001:

[Onur]

Check out this blog.

http://stopturkey.blogspot.co.uk/
I just laugh at whoever writes this blog because Turkey will never be a member of EU anyway.

We are already witnessing the last decade of the abomination called as EU and most certainly Turkey will not be part of this abnormal entity operated by some old crooks in Brussels.


This blog is a campaign against Turkish accession to the European Union. Through original articles, and links to relevant sources of information, it aims to demonstrate why Turkish EU membership would be a disaster for Europe and for Western civilisation.
http://stopturkey.blogspot.co.uk/

Englisc, don't worry about the so-called admission of Turkey into EU because this will never happen anyway. I wish you have fun in London with your fellow EU member Bulgarian or Romanian gypsy immigrants and your common wealth Pakis. I hope you rejoice your "European civilization" with them. Don't worry, we wont join your party, so i wish you guys have fun all together :thumb001:
I-HUuSHJ2OI

fucking freaks :lol:

[Anusiya]

You bozos try to cross Ebros... just try. :D Let's see who laughs then! :thumb001:

[Onur]

The Anglosphere in general seems more positive about Turkey though, the British government wants it in the EU (I don't)
Both Turkey and British political elite already knows that we will never be an EU member anyway but they are voicing their support to us just to be politically positive towards us or as a demonstration of their goodwill.

Because Brits are much better than the rest of Europe in terms of political intelligence and they are aware that the future is on the economical and political cooperation in national level but not with the current EU false doctrines. Brits are playing for the future while the politicians of the other countries mostly living in the past or only dealing with present matters. They lack vision and forward-thinking as we can expect from the dinosaurs we see in EU. While we are thinking about the post-EU era, these old dinosaurs are mentioning about the siege of Vienna or crusades against the Turks 800 years ago and busy with trying to decide on the correct radius of the tomatoes and potatoes sold in Europe (!!!)



You bozos try to cross Ebros... just try. :D Let's see who laughs then! :thumb001:
You better deal with your own pitiful bankrupt state rather than dealing with Turkey.

Do something useful for your country, go beg for some more money from frau Merkel.

[Drawing-slim]

Englisc, don't worry about the so-called admission of Turkey into EU because this will never happen anyway. I wish you have fun in London with your fellow EU member Bulgarian or Romanian gypsy immigrants and your common wealth Pakis. I hope you rejoice your "European civilization" with them. Don't worry, we wont join your party, so i wish you guys have fun all together :thumb001:haha, Onur sounds like those kids who is mad at their mother for not getting the big piece of pie: "fuck you i'm not hungry anyway:icon_cry:"

[TheMagnificent]

haha, Onur sounds like those kids who is mad at their mother for not getting the big piece of pie: "fuck you i'm not hungry anyway:icon_cry:"

No, the EU is more and more becoming a EUSSR in which they even determine the size and shape of a cucumber. Why would Turkey want to join such a union any longer.

[StonyArabia]

Turkey should turn to the MidEast in my opinion. Neither friend or Foe. A strong Turkey is good for the MidEast, but bad for Russia which is also positive.

[Anusiya]

You better deal with your own pitiful bankrupt state rather than dealing with Turkey.

Do something useful for your country, go beg for some more money from frau Merkel.

The billions for military aid are still billions, they won't change even if we go default. Just try to lay foot anywhere beyond the lines. They will see the "fireworks" from Mars!

[TheMagnificent]

The billions for military aid are still billions, they won't change even if we go default. Just try to lay foot anywhere beyond the lines. They will see the "fireworks" from Mars!

Yeah, sure. Why would Turkey want to invade Greece anyway? You better worry about your own Golden Dawn party with plans of 'reconquering' Western Anatolia and Istanbul.

[Anusiya]

Yeah, sure. Why would Turkey want to invade Greece anyway?

They don't want to invade, they'd rather gradually expand. They have invested in the Muslim presence in Bosnia and to a less extent in Albania and they know there's oil out there.

[Annihilus]

UK never joined the Euro, and I doubt they ever will, because if somebody else controls your currency they got you by the balls. EU needs to go back to it's basics, which is economic cooperation mostly.

The whole idea of why the EU started was very sound and benificial to all participants. But then some crazy politicians (Germany and France) got Hitler idea's thinking Europe can be ruled centrally.

UK never bought that crap fully, I am talking about the Euro here again. Now if you look at the founding principles of the EU, Turkey with all it's treaties with the EU is allready a EU member.

Turkey will never join the current EU and that is exactly what UK wants. Because for Turkey to join the EU (on paper) it's current concept must be changed.

Instead of pushing further to this road that leads to the abyss, European countries need to trace their steps back to a point where everything still worked and then move to a new direction.

[alb0zfinest]

if we are not european then greeks,albanians,bulgarians etc are not europeans either.lol and do you really think a north european and a south or east europan have same culture?they are physically very different each other as well as culturally too.

:picard1:
So because they are culturally different that makes them non-European?
Who ever said To be European you have to have the same customs the same religion and the same physical appearance as other people inhabiting Europe. What makes a country European = If they are geographically located in Euroope, and their language

[Albion]

Both Turkey and British political elite already knows that we will never be an EU member anyway but they are voicing their support to us just to be politically positive towards us or as a demonstration of their goodwill.

Britain wants the EU to be for trade and a few other things, not the overpowering monstrosity that it is now. I share this view, but until the EU can live up to it I think we are best leaving. The EFTA is more our sort of organisation, it wouldn't be a relic of the past if we joined because suddenly it would have countries joining instead of leaving and a large economy in it. Perhaps other EU rejects could join too. Turkey could be a potential member, and the EFTA is really just about trade-only, so there's no EU nonsense.


Because Brits are much better than the rest of Europe in terms of political intelligence and they are aware that the future is on the economical and political cooperation in national level but not with the current EU false doctrines. Brits are playing for the future while the politicians of the other countries mostly living in the past or only dealing with present matters. They lack vision and forward-thinking as we can expect from the dinosaurs we see in EU. While we are thinking about the post-EU era, these old dinosaurs are mentioning about the siege of Vienna or crusades against the Turks 800 years ago and busy with trying to decide on the correct radius of the tomatoes and potatoes sold in Europe (!!!)

Trading blocks are useful to an extent, but the EU infringes in too many areas that aren't related to it. But then again, the EU cut us off from our former markets overnight. Australia and NZ drifted out of our orbit because we joined the EU. They found new trade and political partners. Previously they'd been loyal to Britain, but once we ditched their trade for the EU relations became distant. The price of food and other resources went up because the EU had preferential access. Australia and NZ supplied us with a lot, especially in winter when it was their summer. Things would get a lot cheaper if we left the EU.
So I think we should join the EFTA, make some sort of Commonwealth trade area (minus Canada) to take advantage of growing markets and relations with Aus and NZ, or just have individual agreements with countries. It works for every other country in the world outside of Europe.

Our trade with the EU is in decline. It's still an important market because it's the biggest market in the world (not because of the EU, but because Europe was already a big market). The EU won't expel Britain because we're a significant part of EU GDP (largest member after Germany and France). Britain is more likely to leave on its own, although I think it's unlikely (newspapers are just scaremongering - trouble is that no one is scared :rolleyes: ).

[Albion]

Turkey should turn to the MidEast in my opinion. Neither friend or Foe. A strong Turkey is good for the MidEast, but bad for Russia which is also positive.

Once oil is gone, the Middle East is finished. There's nothing else there of any use, and no trade wants to go near such problem countries. UAE may be able to live of its investments for a few decades, but those architects from Britain and France cost a lot of money and Abu Dhabi almost hit the rocks once due to bad investments.

[Albion]

The billions for military aid are still billions, they won't change even if we go default. Just try to lay foot anywhere beyond the lines. They will see the "fireworks" from Mars!

I don't think America would pick the Greek side in a conflict with Turkey. Turkey is to valuable an ally to it.


UK never joined the Euro, and I doubt they ever will, because if somebody else controls your currency they got you by the balls. EU needs to go back to it's basics, which is economic cooperation mostly.

The UK was in the ERM which was supposed to prepare countries for the Euro. It crashed out of it in 1992 (I think it was '92 anyway) and never rejoined. Perhaps the reason why it never rejoin was because the economy shot up almost as soon as we were out of it.


UK never bought that crap fully, I am talking about the Euro here again. Now if you look at the founding principles of the EU, Turkey with all it's treaties with the EU is allready a EU member.

Some politicians wanted us to join, but the UK wanted to control its currency and had the previous experience with ERM. We told them that it was a bad idea. DM and Francs weren't exactly unimportant before they were dropped for the Euro, they were used as the reserves along with the Pound, Yen and Dollar. There were no good reasons for the Euro other than the EU wanted to become a single country.


Turkey will never join the current EU and that is exactly what UK wants. Because for Turkey to join the EU (on paper) it's current concept must be changed.

Britain wants Turkey in the EU because their geopolitical interests align very well. It would create another axis to shift power away from France and Germany. At the moment Britain is stuck courting Eurosceptic Scandinavians and Central European lightweights.

[Anusiya]

I don't think America would pick the Greek side in a conflict with Turkey. Turkey is to valuable an ally to it.

Once we feel threatened, the army conscription papers get out of the drawer. They don't understand otherwise.

[Sophie]

Tannis believe me we have much more Turkic (Turkmen-Oghuz) ancestry than you assimilated semito-mesopotamians (iranians) have indo-european one.

Sure whatever :cool:

Genetically you are more European though and less East Eurasian than Iranians

[Loki]

Once oil is gone, the Middle East is finished. There's nothing else there of any use, and no trade wants to go near such problem countries. UAE may be able to live of its investments for a few decades, but those architects from Britain and France cost a lot of money and Abu Dhabi almost hit the rocks once due to bad investments.

Russia will win all the way, they have vast reserves in the north.

[Pecheneg]

Genetically you are more European though and less East Eurasian than Iranians

We have more european and more east eurasian (mongoloid) admixture than iranians.

dodecad K7b

Turks 4.6% siberian + 2.4% east_asian = 7% mongoloid
Iranians 1.2% siberian + 0.4% east_asian = 1.6% mongoloid


"1.6% mongoloid" in iranians comes from Azerbaijani, Qashqai, Khorasani Turks in Iran (30% of Iran population is Turkic).


behar / yellow+orange = asian
http://i46.tinypic.com/2utgcaw.png



but you have much more south_asian(indian) and south_west asian (semitic) admixture than us, which gives you pseudo-gypsy appearance.
http://i45.tinypic.com/242yf5j.jpg







tannis got pwned once again. :laugh:

[sevruk]

For Russia, Turkey has always been the enemy, in contrast to Western Europe which often cooperated with Turkey against Russia. But now, between Russia and Turkey great Economic Cooperation

[Hesperión]

I voted for the last option. However, the Turks are not a demographic threat to Europe as a whole but only to Germany, Austria and The Netherlands.

Then again, since people here like to go back to remote times in history, it should be remembered that the German(ic)s were also a demographic threat to Europe back in the days of the fall of Rome.

And the Dutch (Protestant) hoped for an expansion of the Ottoman Empire into Europe, in order to destroy the power of Spain and of the Church of Rome.

And life goes on.

[Anusiya]

And life goes on.

That one indeed! :thumb001: Life is full of circles. Even among humans.

[Trun]

Bulgars not only are a part of Slavic Europe, but they are the descendants of the early Khaghanates of the Black Sea. These turkic branches contribution to Europe is also important. They kept enemies at bay from the late 200's AD.

This reminds me of an act of saving Europe from Islam:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(717%E2%80%93718)

Byzantines and Bulgarians together stopped the Muslim scum invading Europe.

[Anusiya]

This reminds me of an act of saving Europe from Islam:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(717%E2%80%93718)

Byzantines and Bulgarians together stopped the Muslim scum invading Europe.

Of course they did! The difference is that the Ottomans are trying to pan-turkify everyone else under their banner, because simply Turkey's agenda is to become a superpower in the region. Not all Turks are the same, and certainly not all Turks share the same policies.

[Su]

I'm not trying to show Kurds as European, we are near eastern and proud of it. But for a individual like me, born and raised in Europe with partly European blood, can't I vote on this?

You claimed once to be 1/4 Spanish, I guess you said Valencia, but after that you claimed another time to be fully Kurdish. I am confused about your background now...What is your proper background again?

[Onur]

Britain wants the EU to be for trade and a few other things, not the overpowering monstrosity that it is now. I share this view, but until the EU can live up to it I think we are best leaving. The EFTA is more our sort of organisation, it wouldn't be a relic of the past if we joined because suddenly it would have countries joining instead of leaving and a large economy in it. Perhaps other EU rejects could join too. Turkey could be a potential member, and the EFTA is really just about trade-only, so there's no EU nonsense.
Albion, Turkey also has same goals with British when it comes to Europe. Daniel Hannan gives a good summary of what is British policy about Turkey and talks about the stupid EU policy towards Turkey in his EU parliament speech;
1MdrnyZusSc
_2rSWjypng0
British always supported Turkey in EU because they wanted an another pillar inside the EU who has a large majority in the EU parliement due to it`s population and a powerful one due to Turkey`s potential influence in both Caucasus and the middle-east. It was obvious that Turkey would align with British most of the time when it comes to European affairs and this would help diminish the Franco-German power in it.



For Russia, Turkey has always been the enemy, in contrast to Western Europe which often cooperated with Turkey against Russia. But now, between Russia and Turkey great Economic Cooperation
Turkey is the biggest economic partner of Russia anymore, bigger than USA, UK and the rest of EU trade volume. Watch Russia Today video here;
9qtETgzjdxw
Both countries aiming for over 100 billion dollars annual trade volume in few years of time.

Turkey also allowed Russia to build pipelines in our EEZ in Blacksea, so Russia is destined to Turkey for sending their oil+gas to Europe too.



This reminds me of an act of saving Europe from Islam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(717%E2%80%93718)

Byzantines and Bulgarians together stopped the Muslim scum invading Europe.
There was no Bulgarians in today`s sense back in 717 AD. There was tengrist Bulgars who speaks Turkic and writes in Turkic runic. So, for them, not only muslims but also christians was scum of the earth too.

[Leliana]

Albion, Turkey also has same goals with British when it comes to Europe...
British always supported Turkey in EU because they wanted an another pillar inside the EU who has a large majority in the EU parliement due to it`s population and a powerful one due to Turkey`s potential influence in both Caucasus and the middle-east.
British politicians and people who support Turkey for strategical or political reasons are nothing else but traitors to Europe, simple as that! :stop00010: An European country who wants to weaken other European countries by supporting a hostile non-European country? That's cheap. There are some other British politicians, thanks to god. People like Nigel Farage of UKIP!

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Pix/pictures/2012/11/17/1353173458505/Nigel-Farage-008.jpg

Britain and Europe could need more people like him!

Albion, your view here is really disappointing. :( You Brits lack the experience with the Turkish horde. I count it as naivity and not as convincement.

http://bergolix.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/europe_kick-out_expulse_islam-muslims-musulmans-coran950x705.jpg

[Onur]

Albion, your view here is really disappointing. :( You Brits lack the experience with the Turkish horde. I count it as naivity and not as convincement.
Ohh yes my dear, they surely have better experience with the German horde and that was a recent one as well.

I mean, when was the last time you Germans experienced Turkish horde? I guess it was about 400 years ago for the last time because we always cooperated afterwards including WW-1, but when was the last time British experienced the German horde? It was merely 65 years ago.

My sweet Leliana, sorry but i count yours as an amnesia on top of arrogance.

[Leliana]

Ohh yes my dear, they surely have better experience with the German horde and that was a recent one as well.
Uhm, Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. Who suffers on amnesia? :picard2: The Nazis wanted to avoid war with Great Britain.

I mean, when was the last time you Germans experienced Turkish horde?
Every damn day when we leave our houses to go into our cities, when we walk across the streets, when we use the bus or the railway, when we go shopping, when we go clubbing, when we go to school or work, when we want to have fun, when we watch the news, when we want to go to church!

There are millions of Turks in Germany and other hundred of thousands in Austria. No fucking day where I don't encounter at least one or two Turks! Your people are a scourge and act like occupying forces. The Turks are the most disliked group of foreigners in Germany and Austria and that rejection will result in active resistance soon enough. We are fed up with Turks, and it's not only the rightwingers who can't reek you any more!

I guess it was about 400 years ago for the last time because we always cooperated afterwards including WW-1, but when was the last time British experienced the German horde? It was merely 65 years ago.
Any cooperation with Turkey/Ottoman Empire in the 19th and early 20th century were grave mistakes by German and Austrian monarchs and politicians. All contacts shall be cut forever, and all your immigrants to our country shall be released above Ankara from planes. With parachutes or not!

[ChildOfTheJin]

You claimed once to be 1/4 Spanish, I guess you said Valencia, but after that you claimed another time to be fully Kurdish. I am confused about your background now...What is your proper background again?

I wish I was fully Kurdish, but yes I am 1/4 Valencian and 3/4 Kurdish.

[Albion]

British politicians and people who support Turkey for strategical or political reasons are nothing else but traitors to Europe, simple as that! :stop00010: An European country who wants to weaken other European countries by supporting a hostile non-European country? That's cheap. There are some other British politicians, thanks to god. People like Nigel Farage of UKIP!

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Pix/pictures/2012/11/17/1353173458505/Nigel-Farage-008.jpg

Britain and Europe could need more people like him!

Albion, your view here is really disappointing. :( You Brits lack the experience with the Turkish horde. I count it as naivity and not as convincement.

http://bergolix.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/europe_kick-out_expulse_islam-muslims-musulmans-coran950x705.jpg

They don't belong in the EU, I have made that clear. They are still an important ally though, although a non-European one. Whether we like it or not, it would be foolish to simply ignore Turkey or be hostile to it.

I'm not particularly concerned about the Balkans. Turkey can't influence the region too much because of its past, EU inroads into the region and countries like Serbia which are very pro-Russian.
Turks residing in Germany is a problem caused by politicians in Germany. Britain is allies with Japan and conducts a trade with them, it doesn't mean that we have to allow millions of them into our country. Don't confuse geopolitics with immigration problems.


I mean, when was the last time you Germans experienced Turkish horde? I guess it was about 400 years ago for the last time because we always cooperated afterwards including WW-1, but when was the last time British experienced the German horde? It was merely 65 years ago.

To be fair, we've probably had more conflicts with Turks via the Ottoman Empire than we did with Germans. Britain and Germany only became enemies in the two world wars. Britain and Ottomans / Turkey have had multiple conflicts, but then also many eras of co-operation and alliance.
It wasn't so long before that when we were in conflict, someone has already mentioned it earlier.

[Englisc]

I'm not a person of European descent but I am a inhabitant of Europe and I speak a Indo European language (Kurdish) and Kurdish culture is similar (apparently) to those of the Balkans.

Can I vote?
You don't live in Europe (unless you are a immigrant).

[Englisc]

Racist people like you suck. Why are you even alive anyway ?
You're a disgrace of atheism. You got dogmas, your religion is racism itself.
Why am I even alive? Do I need to answer that?

Well my mother and father... Oh screw it.

Racism is not a dogma, it's something I awakened to.

[Englisc]

I just laugh at whoever writes this blog because Turkey will never be a member of EU anyway.

We are already witnessing the last decade of the abomination called as EU and most certainly Turkey will not be part of this abnormal entity operated by some old crooks in Brussels.



Englisc, don't worry about the so-called admission of Turkey into EU because this will never happen anyway. I wish you have fun in London with your fellow EU member Bulgarian or Romanian gypsy immigrants and your common wealth Pakis. I hope you rejoice your "European civilization" with them. Don't worry, we wont join your party, so i wish you guys have fun all together :thumb001:
I-HUuSHJ2OI

fucking freaks :lol:
I'm in Bradford, not London. And FYI I hate the gypsies too.

[ChildOfTheJin]

You don't live in Europe (unless you are a immigrant).

I am 1/4 Spanish and born in Netherlands

[Leliana]

They don't belong in the EU, I have made that clear. They are still an important ally though, although a non-European one. Whether we like it or not, it would be foolish to simply ignore Turkey or be hostile to it.
Why are they an ally to you? Because the financial situation of Turkey isn't the worst atm? :confused: Are 'current economic strength', 'trade' and 'geostrategical considerations' the only factors who play a role in answering the question if someone can be considered an ally or not to you?

Sorry but I don't get it. You ignore the history of the last 1100 years, their culture, their character as a people, their religion and the hidden or open agenda of their political leadership which has been carried into political power by the majority of the Turkish populace! The Turks were in war against countries and people of Europe for the longest time of their existence. They've occcupied huge parts of the Balkans for centuries. They tried to sack Vienna and Central Europe more than once. They want to gain more influence in Southern Europe as we speak. Recep Tyip Erdogan dreams of a Neo-ottoman Empire in TV interviews and party speeches.

Turkey is responsible for the death, violation and repression of million of European people troughout the centuries! Never has Turkey atone for her sins, never ever has been any word of regret directed at the victims of their brutal warfare and landgrab. It has started with Konstantinopel, topped with the second siege of Vienna and still keeps going on with the megalomanic hate speech of Erdogan against European people and countries!

How can one callself a proud European if he's/she's willing to forget and ignore the countless of decayed European nameless bodies who had to rot six feet under for taking a stand against Turkish offensive campaigns and for falling into the vile hands of the Turkish oppressors? How can such people bring their fallen ancestors and these upright European defenders into accordance with their shortsighted 'geopolitical considerations' and 'trade prospects'? :stop00010:

Turkey has always been the threat, the encroaching monster at your gates. To forget about 1100 years of history and to forget about the current megalomania of Turkey is an elementary mistake! :( They are no ally and will never be.

If you have a neighbour next door who attacks and slanders your family for decades, who poisons your flowers, who litters your garden, who harms your cats, who boasts with taking over your property soon and who threatens your children, would you invite him for a drink just because he can afford the construction of a new wintergarden owing to a present financial surplus? :confused:

[Englisc]

Why are they an ally to you? Because the financial situation of Turkey isn't the worst at the moment? :confused: Are 'current economic strength', 'trade' and 'geostrategical considerations' the only factors who play a role in answering the question if someone can be considered an ally or not for you?

Sorry but I don't get it. You ignore the history of the last 1100 years, their culture, their character as a people, their religion and the hidden or open agenda of their political leadership which has been carried into political power by the majority of the Turkish populace! The Turks were in war against countries and people of Europe for the longest time of their existence. They've occcupied huge parts of the Balkans for centuries. They tried to sack Vienna and Central Europe more than once. They want to gain more influence in Southern Europe as we speak. Recep Tyip Erdogan dreams of a Neo-ottoman Empire in TV interviews and party speeches.

Turkey is responsible for the death, violation and repression of million of European people troughout the centuries! Never has Turkey atone for her sins, never ever has been any word of regret directed at the victims of their brutal warfare and landgrab. It has started with Konstantinopel, topped with the second siege of Vienna and still keeps going on with the megalomanic hate speech of Erdogan against European people and countries!

How can one callself a proud European if he's/she's willing to forget and ignore the countless of decayed European nameless bodies who had to rot six feet under for taking a stand against Turkish offensive campaigns and for falling into the vile hands of the Turkish oppressors? How can such people bring their fallen ancestors and these upright European defenders into accordance with their shortsighted 'geopolitical considerations' and 'trade prospects'? :stop00010:

Turkey has always been the threat, the encroaching monster at your gates. To forget about 1100 years of history and to forget about the current megalomania of Turkey is an elementary mistake! :( They are no ally and will never be.

If you have a neighbour next door who attacks and slanders your family for decades, who poisons your flowers, who litters your garden, who harms your cats and who threatens your children, would you invite him for a drink just because he can afford the construction of a new wintergarden owing to a present financial surplus? :confused:
Excellent post. :thumb001:

[Jerreiche]

I wonder how turks feel after seeing that only 1 user out of 44 in the poll voted for the "Turkey is no threat, but a likely ally" option.


the 99% of the European users range from wary-ness to pure despise. I wonder how they feel about it, and if they still want to be engaged in a European Cultural Community

[ficuscarica]

I wonder how turks feel after seeing that only 1 user out of 44 in the poll voted for the "Turkey is no threat, but a likely ally" option.


the 99% of the European users range from wary-ness to pure despise. I wonder how they feel about it, and if they still want to be engaged in a European Cultural Community

Actually, the only non-Turk who voted for Turkey as an ally is Bosnian (and Bosnia is a Turkish colony). Not one single real European voted for Turkey (gosh, one Bosnian member calls himself "Ottoman".......), about ten voted rather positive, but more than three times more negative or rather negative. Shouldn´t that make the Turks think? Of course it won´t. And that´s why we should keep them out wherever we can. They aren´t willing to learn and turn from their evil ways.

Concerning the "great Turkish economy". Spain, who has asked for EU help, has a three times higher per capita income than Turkey, despite decades of economical support (development aid!) from the EU and from Germany. This country is an economical joke. And I can´t wait for the Kurds to outbreed the terrible Turks with their insane new Fuehrer. At the moment the birthrate of the Kurds is three times higher than the Turkish one, and the Kurds already are 15-20% of the population. The Kurds are kind of higher justice for the desaster the Turks cause in Germany. :thumb001:

[Albion]

Why are they an ally to you? Because the financial situation of Turkey isn't the worst atm? :confused: Are 'current economic strength', 'trade' and 'geostrategical considerations' the only factors who play a role in answering the question if someone can be considered an ally or not to you?

No, but they are important considerations. Leliana, if we were enemies with every country we've had a war with then we'd have like no allies. ;)


Sorry but I don't get it. You ignore the history of the last 1100 years, their culture, their character as a people, their religion and the hidden or open agenda of their political leadership which has been carried into political power by the majority of the Turkish populace! The Turks were in war against countries and people of Europe for the longest time of their existence. They've occcupied huge parts of the Balkans for centuries. They tried to sack Vienna and Central Europe more than once.

Correct. Obviously we must not forget their past deeds, but it is no reason to forget about them in the present. If we leave Turkey alone then it will pursue its own path and European nations will be less likely to influence it. That creates a potential danger to the Balkans, so abandoning Turkey defeats the purpose.
If it becomes a part of the European economy and alliance systems then a certain amount of blackmail can be applied whenever the time comes. This is apparently the same strategy that was employed by the EU to keep Germany subdued.


They want to gain more influence in Southern Europe as we speak. Recep Tyip Erdogan dreams of a Neo-ottoman Empire in TV interviews and party speeches.

Well it won't happen. At the very best they'd gain control of Bosnia and Albania as new provinces, although I very much doubt that.


Turkey is responsible for the death, violation and repression of million of European people troughout the centuries! Never has Turkey atone for her sins, never ever has been any word of regret directed at the victims of their brutal warfare and landgrab. It has started with Konstantinopel, topped with the second siege of Vienna and still keeps going on with the megalomanic hate speech of Erdogan against European people and countries!


Yes.


How can one callself a proud European if he's/she's willing to forget and ignore the countless of decayed European nameless bodies who had to rot six feet under for taking a stand against Turkish offensive campaigns and for falling into the vile hands of the Turkish oppressors? How can such people bring their fallen ancestors and these upright European defenders into accordance with their shortsighted 'geopolitical considerations' and 'trade prospects'? :stop00010:

Turkey has always been the threat, the encroaching monster at your gates. To forget about 1100 years of history and to forget about the current megalomania of Turkey is an elementary mistake! :( They are no ally and will never be.

We can't live in the past. See how I voted in the poll? I don't entirely trust Turkey, I don't want it in the EU or the Schengen. This doesn't stop us co-operating with Turkey though. It can't just be ignored.


If you have a neighbour next door who attacks and slanders your family for decades, who poisons your flowers, who litters your garden, who harms your cats, who boasts with taking over your property soon and who threatens your children, would you invite him for a drink just because he can afford the construction of a new wintergarden owing to a present financial surplus? :confused:

It can't be compared, we're discussing a country here. It wouldn't matter if they were another Greece, they matter in West Asia and are willing to co-operate to further their own agenda. They won't be allowed to just march armies into Europe (not outside of Thrace anyway), don't worry.

[ChildOfTheJin]

The Kurds are kind of higher justice for the desaster the Turks cause in Germany.

The funny thing is, whenever we (the PKK) kill some Turkish soldiers, they lie by telling the people that the deaths of Turkish soldiers were very low and then they try to say that they killed 100 PKK soldiers in the next 2 minutes... :picard1: I know they do this to keep their status in NATO as "2nd strongest military".

Another thing is whenever we destroy a Turkish helicopter or jet, it is always a "weather disaster". :laugh:

[ficuscarica]

The funny thing is, whenever we (the PKK) kill some Turkish soldiers, they lie by telling the people that the deaths of Turkish soldiers were very low and then they try to say that they killed 100 PKK soldiers in the next 2 minutes... :picard1: I know they do this to keep their status in NATO as "2nd strongest military".

Another thing is whenever we destroy a Turkish helicopter or jet, it is always a "weather disaster". :laugh:

Good to hear that the Kurds cause serious losses for the Turkish military. The occupation of Kurdish land must end. Also, it is about time that these imperialist Turks are taught a lesson. :thumb001:

Some people say that the Kurds will accept the Turkish occupation. Do you think that´s realistic?

[Albion]

Concerning the "great Turkish economy". Spain, who has asked for EU help, has a three times higher per capita income than Turkey, despite decades of economical support (development aid!) from the EU and from Germany. This country is an economical joke.

GDP per capita is just about how rich a country's citizens are. It doesn't show economic importance in the world, if it did then Luxembourg's economic success would matter more than Germany's.
Turkey is competing with Germany industrially btw. It is manufacturing a lot of what isn't economically viable to make in Germany. A lot of European brands are re-badging white goods (cookers, fridges, etc) from Beko and a lot of electronics (TV's, radios, etc) from Vestel for instance.

You're measuring the wrong GDP.

Edit: Here's how people voted:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6452/turkeyu.jpg

[ficuscarica]

GDP per capita is just about how rich a country's citizens are. It doesn't show economic importance in the world, if it did then Luxembourg's economic success would matter more than Germany's.
Turkey is competing with Germany industrially btw. It is manufacturing a lot of what isn't economically viable to make in Germany. A lot of European brands are re-badging white goods (cookers, fridges, etc) from Beko and a lot of electronics (TV's, radios, etc) from Vestel for instance.

You're measuring the wrong GDP.

The overall income of the country itself is just as ridiculous. Look it up. Competing with Germany? They can´t even compete with Spain.

Turkey
GDP (nominal) 2011 estimate
- Total $774.336 billion
Population
- 2012 estimate 74,724,269

Spain
GDP (nominal) 2012 estimate
- Total $1.340 trillion
Population
- 2011 estimate 47,190,493

Germany
GDP (nominal) 2012 estimate
- Total $3.367 trillion
Population
- 2010 estimate 81,799,600

=> Despite being an "economical superpower" Turkey has an income of approx. 60% of Spain, although Turkey has over 50% more people. And in Spain we speak of an economic crisis! Germany, having about the same number of people as Turkey, has a more than four times higher income. Despite the economical aid we have been paying for decades to support that Turkish sh!thole. Seriously, all they have is a big mouth. Let that "giant" with 1,5 children/Turkish woman and its crappy economy shrink to death. And the Kurds will take their rightful land away from these opressors soon enough.

[Pecheneg]

Why are they an ally to you? Because the financial situation of Turkey isn't the worst atm? :confused: Are 'current economic strength', 'trade' and 'geostrategical considerations' the only factors who play a role in answering the question if someone can be considered an ally or not to you?

Sorry but I don't get it. You ignore the history of the last 1100 years, their culture, their character as a people, their religion and the hidden or open agenda of their political leadership which has been carried into political power by the majority of the Turkish populace! The Turks were in war against countries and people of Europe for the longest time of their existence. They've occcupied huge parts of the Balkans for centuries. They tried to sack Vienna and Central Europe more than once. They want to gain more influence in Southern Europe as we speak. Recep Tyip Erdogan dreams of a Neo-ottoman Empire in TV interviews and party speeches.

Turkey is responsible for the death, violation and repression of million of European people troughout the centuries! Never has Turkey atone for her sins, never ever has been any word of regret directed at the victims of their brutal warfare and landgrab. It has started with Konstantinopel, topped with the second siege of Vienna and still keeps going on with the megalomanic hate speech of Erdogan against European people and countries!

How can one callself a proud European if he's/she's willing to forget and ignore the countless of decayed European nameless bodies who had to rot six feet under for taking a stand against Turkish offensive campaigns and for falling into the vile hands of the Turkish oppressors? How can such people bring their fallen ancestors and these upright European defenders into accordance with their shortsighted 'geopolitical considerations' and 'trade prospects'? :stop00010:

Turkey has always been the threat, the encroaching monster at your gates. To forget about 1100 years of history and to forget about the current megalomania of Turkey is an elementary mistake! :( They are no ally and will never be.

If you have a neighbour next door who attacks and slanders your family for decades, who poisons your flowers, who litters your garden, who harms your cats, who boasts with taking over your property soon and who threatens your children, would you invite him for a drink just because he can afford the construction of a new wintergarden owing to a present financial surplus? :confused:

after reading your post i feel myself like this;
http://i50.tinypic.com/vrq361.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/2luujqb.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/2zfs5tj.jpg


















I wish I was fully Kurdish, but yes I am 1/4 Valencian and 3/4 Kurdish.

I am 1/4 Spanish and born in Netherlands
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5117/12638668.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/12638668.gif/)

[kabeiros]

GDP per capita is just about how rich a country's citizens are. It doesn't show economic importance in the world, if it did then Luxembourg's economic success would matter more than Germany's. India has around 1.2 billion citizens, their economic importance in the world is huge. We should have a special relationship with them, not with Turkey

Turkey is competing with Germany industrially btw. It is manufacturing a lot of what isn't economically viable to make in Germany. A lot of European brands are re-badging white goods (cookers, fridges, etc) from Beko and a lot of electronics (TV's, radios, etc) from Vestel for instance.
Turkey is competing with China, Taiwan and Singapore on who is going to have the lowest salary for industrial workers, so that the American and European companies will move their factories there in order to lower their annual budget. This hardly makes them economically important and it is actually dangerous for European economies. We need Euro companies to come back not to move in Turkey...

[Albion]

The overall income of the country itself is just as ridiculous. Look it up. Competing with Germany? They can´t even compete with Spain.

Turkey
GDP (nominal) 2011 estimate
- Total $774.336 billion
Population
- 2012 estimate 74,724,269

Spain
GDP (nominal) 2012 estimate
- Total $1.340 trillion
Population
- 2011 estimate 47,190,493

GermanyGDP (nominal) 2012 estimate
- Total $3.367 trillion
Population
- 2010 estimate 81,799,600

=> Despite being an "economical superpower" Turkey has an income of approx. 60% of Spain, although Turkey has over 50% more people. And in Spain we speak of an economic crisis! Germany, having about the same number of people as Turkey, has a more than four times higher income. Despite the economical aid we have been paying for decades to support that Turkish sh!thole. Seriously, all they have is a big mouth...




Do you really think Turks(!) can build an industry like Germans. I think it is as likely as the Congo competing with Italy. Seriously, even this year they received German development aid.

Their growth rate is around 8%. It won't take them too long to catch up to Spain.

[ficuscarica]

after reading your post i feel myself like this;


Try this!
http://www.comic-statuen.de/shop/contents/media/l_ork_detail_1.jpg

[Englisc]

Their growth rate is around 8%. It won't take them too long to catch up to Spain.
Why haven't they done so already?

[ChildOfTheJin]

Some people say that the Kurds will accept the Turkish occupation. Do you think that´s realistic?

Not directly under the Turkish rule, that is not realistic. But, at the moment, the demand is autonomy (similar to the KRG) where the Kurds can have their own army, own government, own flag and every other important thing that is required for a independent state. I prefer fully independence though and not autonomy.



http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5117/12638668.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/12638668.gif/)

You seem to be very obsessed with my Spanish/Valencian roots.

[Albion]

India has around 1.2 billion citizens, their economic importance in the world is huge. We should have a special relationship with them, not with Turkey

Why not both? Why must we restrict ourselves to a few countries in the EU?


Turkey is competing with China, Taiwan and Singapore on who is going to have the lowest salary for industrial workers, so that the American and European companies will move their factories there in order to lower their annual budget. This hardly makes them economically important and it is actually dangerous for European economies. We need Euro companies to come back not to move in Turkey...


Turkey is closer and so has lower transportation costs. There's a reason why heavy machinery and appliances are made in Europe - because they'd cost too much to ship to Europe from China.
And yes, we should support European economies. Turkey can buy some of our stuff and we can buy some of theirs. Countries should aim for increased self sufficiency though, but few countries can provide for all of their needs.

[Albion]

Why haven't they done so already?

Because their economy only became significant in the last few decades, it doesn't happen overnight.

[Pecheneg]

Try this!
http://www.comic-statuen.de/shop/ntents/media/l_ork_detail_1.jpg

still better than being a brown kike with horse admixture
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/2079/1320867370foamlatexhors.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/1320867370foamlatexhors.gif/)

[ficuscarica]

still better than being a brown kike with horse admixture

How creative the Orcs are. :rolleyes: No wonder they always tried to steal the land of others, receive development aid and come to European countries as economical refugees.

[Pecheneg]

The funny thing is, whenever we (the PKK) kill some Turkish soldiers, they lie by telling the people that the deaths of Turkish soldiers were very low and then they try to say that they killed 100 PKK soldiers in the next 2 minutes... :picard1: I know they do this to keep their status in NATO as "2nd strongest military".

Do you want me to show your pkk carcasses again you filthy kurdish scum?
Keep sucking european balls unfortunately you will never be accepted in european society. ;)

[TheMagnificent]

Why are they an ally to you? Because the financial situation of Turkey isn't the worst atm? :confused: Are 'current economic strength', 'trade' and 'geostrategical considerations' the only factors who play a role in answering the question if someone can be considered an ally or not to you?

Sorry but I don't get it. You ignore the history of the last 1100 years, their culture, their character as a people, their religion and the hidden or open agenda of their political leadership which has been carried into political power by the majority of the Turkish populace! The Turks were in war against countries and people of Europe for the longest time of their existence. They've occcupied huge parts of the Balkans for centuries. They tried to sack Vienna and Central Europe more than once. They want to gain more influence in Southern Europe as we speak. Recep Tyip Erdogan dreams of a Neo-ottoman Empire in TV interviews and party speeches.

Turkey is responsible for the death, violation and repression of million of European people troughout the centuries! Never has Turkey atone for her sins, never ever has been any word of regret directed at the victims of their brutal warfare and landgrab. It has started with Konstantinopel, topped with the second siege of Vienna and still keeps going on with the megalomanic hate speech of Erdogan against European people and countries!

How can one callself a proud European if he's/she's willing to forget and ignore the countless of decayed European nameless bodies who had to rot six feet under for taking a stand against Turkish offensive campaigns and for falling into the vile hands of the Turkish oppressors? How can such people bring their fallen ancestors and these upright European defenders into accordance with their shortsighted 'geopolitical considerations' and 'trade prospects'? :stop00010:

Turkey has always been the threat, the encroaching monster at your gates. To forget about 1100 years of history and to forget about the current megalomania of Turkey is an elementary mistake! :( They are no ally and will never be.

If you have a neighbour next door who attacks and slanders your family for decades, who poisons your flowers, who litters your garden, who harms your cats, who boasts with taking over your property soon and who threatens your children, would you invite him for a drink just because he can afford the construction of a new wintergarden owing to a present financial surplus? :confused:

How cute, these words, coming from someone whose country is known to be one of the greatest aggressors of the last few centuries, that stood at the cause of two world wars, and whose civilization, the Western European, is known to be the greatest colonizer in human history.
Western Europe colonized almost every country in the world and ransacked its resources for own use and changed borders at own will, whereas no Muslim nation invaded or conquered any European territory for about 200 years. The last Ottoman conquests date from the end of the 18th century and since then it was in gradual decline. Not to mention the still ongoing Western interference in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world. Instead, we should be afraid of the West, if we follow your logic. So, cut that same old crusader bullshit of yours.

[Graus]

Why not both? Why must we restrict ourselves to a few countries in the EU?



Turkey is closer and so has lower transportation costs. There's a reason why heavy machinery and appliances are made in Europe - because they'd cost too much to ship to Europe from China.
And yes, we should support European economies. Turkey can buy some of our stuff and we can buy some of theirs. Countries should aim for increased self sufficiency though, but few countries can provide for all of their needs.

I like to think it has something to do with quality and expertise. Thats why we sell our heavy stuff in the whole world. Turkey isnt able to compete when it comes to sophisticated goods. Dont assume just because Britain lost its industry it has to be the same for the rest of us.

[Englisc]

Because their economy only became significant in the last few decades, it doesn't happen overnight.
Yes, but why didn't it's economy become significant earlier?

[ChildOfTheJin]

Do you want me to show your pkk carcasses again you filthy kurdish scum?
Keep sucking european balls unfortunately you will never be accepted in european society. ;)

Oh fuck off, you are a waste of everyones time.

[Englisc]

Oh fuck off, you are a waste of everyones time.
We were warned earlier not to use insults. :rolleyes:

[Pecheneg]

Oh fuck off, you are a waste of everyones time.

You fuck off smarmy piece of shit. You are not a european nor a Turk, you have nothing to do with this thread, no one asks your opinion.

[ficuscarica]

I do ask his opinion. The Kurds are Europe´s allies. Look at the poll. Most Europeans are against Turkey, not a single one is for them.

[Pecheneg]

I do ask his opinion. The Kurds are Europe´s allies. Look at the poll. Most Europeans are against Turkey, not a single one is for them.
and you are also a kike.

[gregorius]

We were warned earlier not to use insults. :rolleyes:

:wink

[dado]

...YpuRcmPnSTM

[Hesperión]

Uhm, Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. Who suffers on amnesia? :picard2: The Nazis wanted to avoid war with Great Britain.And other Germans also swear that it was Russia that was going to attack Germany and thus Germany had to defend itself by invading Russia. And yet others swear that the KZs were holiday resorts, the gas chambers were showers and that the crematories were bread baking ovens for the prisoners.

It's the entire world conspiring against the Germans, an adorable, peace-loving, human-friendly race.


There are millions of Turks in Germany and other hundred of thousands in Austria. No fucking day where I don't encounter at least one or two Turks! Your people are a scourge and act like occupying forces. The Turks are the most disliked group of foreigners in Germany and Austria and that rejection will result in active resistance soon enough. We are fed up with Turks, and it's not only the rightwingers who can't reek you any more!They do not act like occupying forces. They've already occupied Germany (and Austria). Their demographic trends are higher than that of Germans and there is nothing that you'll be able to do about it. While their young women still have children that will be the future men and women of Germany, what do you do apart from beating on a keyboard?

Oh, and to the many millions of Turks in Germany and Austria you must add the many more millions in Turkey.

I'll agree that they are a scourge but... you are a German! When did Germans reapply for their affiliation to Mankind?

[ChildOfTheJin]

You fuck off smarmy piece of shit. You are not a european nor a Turk, you have nothing to do with this thread, no one asks your opinion.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8486/smilechineseman.gif

[Sky earth]

Uhm, Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. Who suffers on amnesia? :picard2: The Nazis wanted to avoid war with Great Britain.

Every damn day when we leave our houses to go into our cities, when we walk across the streets, when we use the bus or the railway, when we go shopping, when we go clubbing, when we go to school or work, when we want to have fun, when we watch the news, when we want to go to church!

There are millions of Turks in Germany and other hundred of thousands in Austria. No fucking day where I don't encounter at least one or two Turks! Your people are a scourge and act like occupying forces. The Turks are the most disliked group of foreigners in Germany and Austria and that rejection will result in active resistance soon enough. We are fed up with Turks, and it's not only the rightwingers who can't reek you any more!

Any cooperation with Turkey/Ottoman Empire in the 19th and early 20th century were grave mistakes by German and Austrian monarchs and politicians. All contacts shall be cut forever, and all your immigrants to our country shall be released above Ankara from planes. With parachutes or not!



The only thing you can do in Threads about Turks or Turkey is crying about how evil, bad, dirty and stupid we are. It's so pathetic to read your posts, because you can't write something different. I have a question for you: Do you also hate the integrated, liberal, atheist Turks? Or are you one of the Nazis, who just hate all Turks and other non European immigrants no matter how good they are integrated in the German Society? I myself live in Germany and most of my friends are Germans, so please don't think I don't like your people. They have also something against racist human beings like you and I can assure you that I also don't like those islamist Turks who call "shitty Germans" and cant't speak the language of the country where they live.But you're one of those people where I can think why some Turks don't want to integrate in that country.

[Yalquzaq]

Şunların seviyesine inmeyin, çoluk çocuk topluluğu, boşuna vakit harcamayın.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Their growth rate is around 8%. It won't take them too long to catch up to Spain.

Turkish economy has already overheated. It's projected to grow only 2% this year, and 3% next year.

[dado]

i consider turks as friendly,well more than that, a brother nation would be the word,but i don't want to see them moving further away from muslim world by joining EU...neither should bosnia enter EU,we don't have nothing to do there,we don't belong there,we made choice long time ago

[ChildOfTheJin]

çoluk çocuk.

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/files/2008/02/Photograph_of_a_chicken_from_PLOS_article_on_origi n_of_chicken.jpg

[ficuscarica]

i consider turks as friendly,well more than that, a brother nation would be the word,but i don't want to see them moving further away from muslim world by joining EU...neither should bosnia enter EU,we don't have nothing to do there,we don't belong there,we made choice long time ago

:thumb001: Finally a good post from a Bosnian.

[Englisc]

And other Germans also swear that it was Russia that was going to attack Germany and thus Germany had to defend itself by invading Russia. And yet others swear that the KZs were holiday resorts, the gas chambers were showers and that the crematories were bread baking ovens for the prisoners.

It's the entire world conspiring against the Germans, an adorable, peace-loving, human-friendly race.
No revisionists take that seriously. Please know your enemy for slandering them. :rolleyes:

It's a well known fact Germany had no intention for a war against England at all. This was never claimed by anyone, but even at the Nuremberg trials this wasn't a charge if I remember correctly.

And yes, Germans are a human-friendly race. Notwithstanding the hundreds of notable musicians, writers, philosophizers, architects and painters Germany has produced over the years, where would we be today without the car, and who invented the rocket that got us to the moon?

[Pecheneg]

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8486/smilechineseman.gif

serhildan
http://g1212.hizliresim.com/14/4/gl5bx.png (http://*******/c25MCx)

[ficuscarica]

Serhildan looks whiter than most Arabo-Mongols from Turkey. And even if he didn´t. I would prefer even Somalis or Gypos over Turks.

[Englisc]

:bored:

[Hesperión]

No one takes revisionists seriously.Fixed ;)


Please know your enemy for slandering them. :rolleyes:They are neither enemy nor friend of mine.

And if they cared to stay east of the Rhine line, I'd be more sympathetic towards them. Be them Germans or Turks.

The claims that gas chambers never existed, that an orgy of mass and inhumane murders of men, women and children never took place, and so on, have been attempted by all revisionists and German nationalists. That's no slander. It's facts.


It's a well known fact Germany had no intention for a war against England at all. This was never claimed by anyone, but even at the Nuremberg trials this wasn't a charge if I remember correctly.They started the war over Europe, they just didn't expect England to take part in it.


And yes, Germans are a human-friendly race.With such friends, why do we need viruses?

[Graus]

Fixed ;)

They are neither enemy nor friend of mine.

And if they cared to stay east of the Rhine line, I'd be more sympathetic towards them. Be them Germans or Turks.

The claims that gas chambers never existed, that an orgy of mass and inhumane murders of men, women and children never took place, and so on, have been attempted by all revisionists and German nationalists. That's no slander. It's facts.

They started the war over Europe, they just didn't expect England to take part in it.

With such friends, why do we need viruses?

You are making a bullshit straw man arguement here, nobody argued against the holocaust, she was stating mere a fact. Btw are there many viruses in Spain, which subsidize your incompetency?

[Englisc]

This is not the topic for historical discussion, but:


Fixed
Atleast state what they say correctly.

There is an article where a leading revisionist explicitly tackles the claim (that, if you read places like CODOH, has never actually been written by the main revisionist authors) that, for example, the crematoria were bakeries.


And if they cared to stay east of the Rhine line, I'd be more sympathetic towards them. Be them Germans or Turks.
Rhine line set by whom? What does Germany have to do with Spain and why would that make them unsympathetic.


The claims that gas chambers never existed, that an orgy of mass and inhumane murders of men, women and children never took place, and so on, have been attempted by all revisionists and German nationalists. That's no slander. It's facts.

How about those American gas chambers which actually existed, not Jewish hoax ones... :rolleyes:

Even if you believe in the alleged atrocities committed by Germans, it's not like they're the only one who "factually" killed people. How about your people in the Americas?

Some people died. That's war. Germans were no different than the Allies in this respect.


They started the war over Europe, they just didn't expect England to take part in it.
So my claim was factual even though you ridiculed it.

Germany only had intention to have a war against Poland, which Mussolini had attempted to end on Sept 2 1939 anyway. The wars against France and Britain were not intended, while the war against Russia was a preemptive strike.


With such friends, why do we need viruses?
One can say that of humanity in general.

[Loki]

This reminds me of an act of saving Europe from Islam:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(717%E2%80%93718)

Byzantines and Bulgarians together stopped the Muslim scum invading Europe.

You must remember that the Bulgars you're referring to were a bunch of Turks ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire#The_Bulgars

[Graus]

Serhildan looks whiter than most Arabo-Mongols from Turkey. And even if he didn´t. I would prefer even Somalis or Gypos over Turks.

Somalis are even worse than Turks, beware what you wish for.

[Englisc]

You are making a bullshit straw man arguement here, nobody argued against the holocaust, she was stating mere a fact. Btw are there many viruses in Spain, which subsidize your incompetency?
Thankyou. :thumb001:

This isn't the place to argue about WW2 and Jew claims though, let's get on with the topic.

[ChildOfTheJin]

serhildan
http://g1212.hizliresim.com/14/4/gl5bx.png (http://*******/c25MCx)

http://www.bannerfans.com/banners/5/546/8/55468i/55468_751942.jpg

[Albion]

http://www.bannerfans.com/banners/5/546/8/55468i/55468_751942.jpg

Turks and Kurds arguing over who is the least white is hilarious. Please continue. :D

[Hesperión]

Atleast state what they say correctly.

There is an article where a leading revisionist explicitly tackles the claim (that, if you read places like CODOH, has never actually been written by the main revisionist authors) that, for example, the crematoria were bakeries.You are dodging the point, which is:

Were hundreds of thousands of men, women and children murdered in gas chambers? YES
Were their corpses made disappear through mass incineration in crematoria? YES
Were millions eventually murdered by gassing, starvation and other methods? YES

Has this ever been denied by revisionists and German nationalists? YES


Rhine line set by whom?By God. Or by Nature. Whichever you prefer.


What does Germany have to do with Spain and why would that make them unsympathetic.Where did I say that I speak officially on behalf of all Spaniards?


How about those American gas chambers which actually existed, not Jewish hoax ones... :rolleyes:How does it excuse German atrocities?


Even if you believe in the alleged atrocities committed by Germans, it's not like they're the only one who "factually" killed people. How about your people in the Americas?They did quite well for a 16th century people. As the fact that Amerindians are still in the majority (pure or mixed) after many centuries of Spanish rule proves it..


Some people died. That's war. Germans were no different than the Allies in this respect.All of a sudden millions become 'some' and torture and cold blooded murder of defenseless people in camps becomes 'war'.

You have a strange, rather perversed view of things.


So my claim was factual even though you ridiculed it. How did I ridicule it?

Your claim is clearly short sighted and fails to look at the grand picture where a total war over Europe was on the make (again). Or are you now going to argue that the large German war machine was created overnight, to repel an attack?

[SKYNET]

Turks and Kurds arguing over who is the least white is hilarious. Please continue. :D



endless and useless discussion that I've ever seen here :picard1:

[ChildOfTheJin]

Turks and Kurds arguing over who is the least white is hilarious. Please continue. :D

I haven't said anything about skin colour and who is whiter I have just said that I am partly European, which is true.

[Hesperión]

You are making a bullshit straw man arguement here, nobody argued against the holocaust, she was stating mere a fact.The mere fact that they are scoundrels is not so mere, when it is perfectly possible to argue that Germans are scoundrels just as well.

I can see that if I hadn't mention the criminal records of the German nation then you'd even have an argument here. A pity, but that's not how things work.


Btw are there many viruses in Spain, which subsidize your incompetency?Let me think... many in the Socialist Party, PSOE, that was insignificant in its numbers during the years previous to the death of General Franco, yet it was financed with Deutschmarks via the German Social Democracy and thus became a prominent party after Gen. Franco's death. Then came into power and repaid its debt to the Germans by agreeing on a deal to dismantle the Spanish heavy industry, and ... should I continue or should we stay on topic, i.e. Gemans, Turks and perhaps other Asians?

[archangel]

lol european union economy is shrinking as we speak.you are in a hopeless case personally i fell neutral to many euro nations but french annoying me(i guess they ennoying everybody) but i like Hungarians and Finns in the region.you know Hungarians and we Türks are related:) and Finnish music is cool

[Leliana]

If it becomes a part of the European economy and alliance systems then a certain amount of blackmail can be applied whenever the time comes.
Turkey could soon become the largest country in any 'European alliance' system by population and lots of power is wielded by those countries who have the largest populations. Inacceptable that Turkey leads the way in any organization related with Europe! :stop00010: Turkey deserves no power or say in any comission or alliance.

after reading your post i feel myself like this;
http://i47.tinypic.com/2luujqb.jpg

You Turks are, there's truly evil in the world and your people have proven to possess a vile character. You're never to be trusted and never to be befriended. Everyone who does will receive a stab wound at the back sooner or later.

How cute, these words, coming from someone whose country is known to be one of the greatest aggressors of the last few centuries, that stood at the cause of two world wars, and whose civilization, the Western European, is known to be the greatest colonizer in human history.
Uhm, WW1 was caused by a system of alliances and not by one country alone. WW2 started with the German declaration of war against Poland but it only became a worldwide conflict with the declaration of war of France and Great Britain and their affiliated oversea territories AND the rest of the Commonwealth nations against Germany. :shy: It was a pure European conflict beforehand.

Colonization was no big business for Germany and Austria. The main colonial players were Spain, Portugal, France, Netherlands, Italy and Great Britain! Direct your unneeded rage against them if you feel like that. :picard1:

Western Europe colonized almost every country in the world and ransacked its resources for own use and changed borders at own will, whereas no Muslim nation invaded or conquered any European territory for about 200 years.
Turkey is invading Western European countries by birthrates and mass immigration. What your sultans were unable to achieve by war is now attempted by the use of other means. Do you think we're stupid and blind? Spare me your taquia!



They do not act like occupying forces. They've already occupied Germany (and Austria). Their demographic trends are higher than that of Germans and there is nothing that you'll be able to do about it.
Real Germans and Austrians are still the huge majority in our own countries. Out of 82 million Germans only 5-6 million are Muslims, mostly Turks. All immigrants together make up to 9 million so there are about 72-73 million Germans remaining. We may lose a few cities in the next few decades to the democraphic factor but the country belongs to us. And one day the Turks and Muslims will be forced to go and leave, that's a fact.

While their young women still have children that will be the future men and women of Germany, what do you do apart from beating on a keyboard?

Oh, and to the many millions of Turks in Germany and Austria you must add the many more millions in Turkey.

I'll agree that they are a scourge but... you are a German! When did Germans reapply for their affiliation to Mankind?
I'm not going to reply to your insults and flames. I don't hate Spain, no, I have great sympathy and respect for Spain and her proud history! :) I'll not sink down to your level and wish an other important European country something bad. That you wish us Germans something evil speaks for yourself.


I have a question for you: Do you also hate the integrated, liberal, atheist Turks?
If you scratch a bit on their surface even the 'integrated liberal Turks' show their real face and their real sympathies. I want all Muslims and Turks to leave Germany and Europe. The Western, Occidental World is not made for your presence. You do not belong here and I don't want or like you. For all what your people did to Europe in the last 1100 years, I hate you.

I'd prefer 10 Greek, Russian or even Vietnamese immigrants for one single Turk that leaves the country. :shocked:

[Peyrol]

Marco-Antonio Bragadin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Antonio_Bragadin), venetian governor of Cyprus (boiled and skinned alive by Ottomans) and other 25,000 venetian-cypriots killed or deported into Anatolia probabily would have something to say about ''Turkey in Europe''...

[Drawing-slim]

:D

[Hesperión]

Colonization was no big business for Germany and Austria. The main colonial players were Spain, Portugal, France, Netherlands, Italy and Great Britain! Direct your unneeded rage against them if you feel like that. :picard1:Italy's colonial adventure was no more significant than Germany's.

And it is not as if Germany had not wish to become a colonial power:


Mit einem Worte: wir wollen niemand in den Schatten stellen, aber wir verlangen auch unseren Platz an der Sonne


Real Germans and Austrians are still the huge majority in our own countries.Certainly the huge majority in the range of the retired to about-to-retire age.


Out of 82 million Germans only 5-6 million are Muslims, mostly Turks. All immigrants together make up to 9 million so there are about 72-73 million Germans remaining. We may lose a few cities in the next few decades to the democraphic factor but the country belongs to us. And one day the Turks and Muslims will be forced to go and leaveAre those official figures? If so they're counting Turks who have German nationality as plain Germans.

Also, Turks are different to other Muslim ethnicities in that they are not particularly religious and thus you wouldn't get a good picture by focusing on a religions census.


that's a fact.It's wishful thinking. Facts are something altogether different.


I'm not going to reply to your insults and flames.Which insults (and flames)?


I don't hate Spain, no, I have great sympathy and respect for Spain and her proud history! :) I'll not sink down to your level and wish an other important European country something bad. That you wish us Germans something evil speaks for yourself. Where have I wished you Germans any evil?

It seems to be impossible to argue with a German without him/her accusing you of hatred against Germany and Germans at the first comment that they don't like.

[Partizan]

Have you forgotten the fall of the Byzantine Empire?

Ask Crusaders, who even raped nuns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade


Have you forgotten the century-long domination of the Ottoman Empire on the Balkans? Have you forgotten the reoccurring attempts to sack Central Europe and other parts of the continent?

That's why this Hungarian guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Th%C3%B6k%C3%B6ly) wished help from Ottomans :rolleyes:


Have you forgotten their overbearance in the 20th century?

If it is what you mean as overbearance, yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_War_of_Independence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign

What the hell is Turkish overbearance in 20.th century seriously? :picard1: We were nothing but victims of Imperialism(Russian and Western) during the first part of it.


Have you forgotten about the millions over millions Turkish immigrants in European countries who act and serve as vicegerents of the Turkish state? Have you forgotten about the political influence of the DITIB and other Turkish organizations who flood European countries with Mosques and 'Turkish cultural centers'?Have you forgotten about the Turkish crimes and Turkish pressure groups in Europe?

1.You called Turkish Immigrants, don't deny :rolleyes:
2.You fed those Islamic organizations against secularism of Turkey. The West never wants Turkey to return its Kemalist past, since it will wake anti-Imperialism up.

You want proof?

Krauts fed Islamist "charity" organization, Deniz Feneri, here (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/9817962.asp?scr=1).

Kraut state didn't extradite radical Islamist Cemalettin Kaplan to Turkey, here (http://arsiv.ntvmsnbc.com/news/217605.asp).

Krauts did not even bother this Islamist and his son while they were spreading their propaganda for nearly 20 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metin_Kaplan

I can guess source of this love between Krauts and Islamists:

http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/hitler_al_husseini.jpg

Well, please follow your Führer and be nice with Muslims. I think "Leila ibn Germani" would fit you well :thumb001:



YOUR goddamn people are invading MY countries in increasing millions of numbers by plastering our streets with needless and infamous Turkish mosques, 'centers' and shops, by abusing our laws and welfare structures on a large scale, by turkifying and islamisizing our towns, by committing disproportional grave crimes and by leading a war through baby buggies..

:bored:

YOU invited us first. :bored: It is not an invasion, people just go for working. Your paranoia has no borders. Turks in Germany, who are not more than 3 million, will invade 80 millions of Germany, huh?

:lol00002:

BTW I don't advocate invasion of Germany by Poland or France, neither I support "independent Sorb state", "Free Heligoland" or something. It is you who wishes a neo-Crusade upon Turkey. It is also your Judeo-Kraut comrade,
ficus who supports Kurdish terrorists.


What our European countries need to do is to expel your compratiots with the whip like stray dogs! We are in need of a new endeavour in our own countries to purify our lands from the pest with goes by the name 'Turks'. :stop00010:

You called them, to remind again :) Blame your government...


Turkey is changing to an Islamic country as we speak, Erdogan, his cabinet and the majority of the Turkish populace want to take that direction. Sorry but you sound like a brainwashed liberal at the moment. :( Appeasement with the everlasting enemy of Europe and the Occident is something we can't afford. You as a Greek person should know firsthand how evil and malicious the Turks are.


Ehem, while speaking about Greeks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Greece)

Oh, surprise, who helped them? :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Kurtulu%C5%9F


Cherrypicking letters of Ottoman sultans and leaders, huh? :bored: The truth is that the reality looked 'a bit' differently.

Excerpt of the theatening letter of Sultan Suleiman the Insane (you call him 'Magificant') to the defenders of Vienna:

“Let it be known that if you become Muslims, nothing will happen to you. But if you offer resistance, then by Allah the most sublime, your city will be reduced to ashes, and young and old slaughtered.”

It is definitely falsified. If Ottomans would have this attitude, we would have already been Islamised whole Balkan peninsula :)


Friendly, isn't he a warm guy? And Turks aren't megalomanic at all, that proves the introduction of the sultan to the King of France:

"I, sultan of sultans, king of kings, the shadow of God who bestows the crown to the monarchs on earth, the supreme ruler of the Mediterranean and Black Seas, the Balkans and Anatolia, Azerbaijan, Damascus and Halep, Egypt, Mecca and Medina, Jerusalem, and all of the Arab dominions, and Yemen, and the sultan and the supreme king of many nations,

I am the son of Sultan Selim Khan and grandson of Sultan Bayezid Khan, and you, King Francis, are the governor of the French province.

You have sent to my Gate, the sanctuary of many kings, a letter by the hand of your faithful servant Frangipani. He has made known to me how the enemy overran your country, so you are now a captive."

:D I love that letter

How would Obama or Putin would act if Turkey or Mexico would demand help? It has nothing to do with megalomania.


French people dared to dance and the friendly and liberal Sultan wasn't amused in one of his next letters:

"I am, who the khan of forty-eight kingdoms, Kanuni Sultan Suleiman Khan. According to report was given by ambassador, I heard of it was danced by your people as cling each other, men and women.
Because of we are contiguous, I'm worrying which is smudging of this sickness to my lands. İf it smudge and you don't terminate this sickness immediately, I will come with my victorious army and destroy you."


It has nothing to do with Turks, who has the power always imposes what he wants.

[ficuscarica]

I don´t have much time, but the Turks were not invited. They asked us to accept Turkish unemployed men. Germany first refused, and only agreed under NATO pressure. Do some research.

[Partizan]

I don´t have much time, but the Turks were not invited. They asked us to accept Turkish unemployed men. Germany first refused, and only agreed under NATO pressure. Do some research.

Ehem, I have asked to almost EVERY International Relations professor I know who are studying on European-Turkish relations in real past, none of them even have heard the book you quote from Wikipedia :rolleyes:

Not a reliable source, it seems.

[Sky earth]

Turkey could soon become the largest country in any 'European alliance' system by population and lots of power is wielded by those countries who have the largest populations. Inacceptable that Turkey leads the way in any organization related with Europe! :stop00010: Turkey deserves no power or say in any comission or alliance.

You Turks are, there's truly evil in the world and your people have proven to possess a vile character. You're never to be trusted and never to be befriended. Everyone who does will receive a stab wound at the back sooner or later.

Uhm, WW1 was caused by a system of alliances and not by one country alone. WW2 started with the German declaration of war against Poland but it only became a worldwide conflict with the declaration of war of France and Great Britain and their affiliated oversea territories AND the rest of the Commonwealth nations against Germany. :shy: It was a pure European conflict beforehand.

Colonization was no big business for Germany and Austria. The main colonial players were Spain, Portugal, France, Netherlands, Italy and Great Britain! Direct your unneeded rage against them if you feel like that. :picard1:

Turkey is invading Western European countries by birthrates and mass immigration. What your sultans were unable to achieve by war is now attempted by the use of other means. Do you think we're stupid and blind? Spare me your taquia!


Real Germans and Austrians are still the huge majority in our own countries. Out of 82 million Germans only 5-6 million are Muslims, mostly Turks. All immigrants together make up to 9 million so there are about 72-73 million Germans remaining. We may lose a few cities in the next few decades to the democraphic factor but the country belongs to us. And one day the Turks and Muslims will be forced to go and leave, that's a fact.

I'm not going to reply to your insults and flames. I don't hate Spain, no, I have great sympathy and respect for Spain and her proud history! :) I'll not sink down to your level and wish an other important European country something bad. That you wish us Germans something evil speaks for yourself.


If you scratch a bit on their surface even the 'integrated liberal Turks' show their real face and their real sympathies. I want all Muslims and Turks to leave Germany and Europe. The Western, Occidental World is not made for your presence. You do not belong here and I don't want or like you. For all what your people did to Europe in the last 1100 years, I hate you.

I'd prefer 10 Greek, Russian or even Vietnamese immigrants for one single Turk that leaves the country. :shocked:



Well, if you think so Leliana, then i can't help you. Your paranoia and fear about us is really psychopathic. Please blame it to your ancestors, who needed Guestworkers and so they call us Turks. And yes you must deal with the 3-4 Million Turks in Germany, unless you immigrate to another country. You called us and now we're living together.

[Partizan]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1203119&postcount=204


I do ask his opinion. The Kurds are Europe´s allies. Look at the poll. Most Europeans are against Turkey, not a single one is for them.

Leliana, please don't pretend to hate Muslims while you accept Kerds as allies(based on your "thanks").

I think you would fit well as a fourth wife of a Kurdish sheikh :)

[ficuscarica]

I will later disprove that myth about the "called" Turks, they were forced on us. We didn´t want them. Away with them! Cleanse Germany from the Turkish horde. If the like Turkey, let them go back! We are not a colony of these third worlders!

[Partizan]

I will later disprove that myth about the "called" Turks, they were forced on us. We didn´t want them. Away with them! Cleanse Germany from the Turkish horde. If the like Turkey, let them go back!

Based on just one book :rolleyes:

If it is what you bullshitted in chatbox, go and tell this story to kids.


We are not a colony of these third worlders!

If you think 2-3 millions of Turks will colonize Germany, go to a shrink as soon as possible. You Krauts are extremely paranoid, I mean those in this forum.

[archangel]

ficusgarica germany was very desperate and needeed workers thats why you calledthese people not only Türks but many italians and southeast,east europeans were invited as well.you live in a hypocrisy world i guess

[ficuscarica]

ficusgarica germany was very desperate and needeed workers thats why you calledthese people not only Türks but many italians and southeast,east europeans were invited as well.you live in a hypocrisy world i guess

Do you really think I don´t know that story? I did some research and found out that this version is not true. The Italians asked us to accept their workers, and we accepted them, because we also benefitted. Turkey had many unemployed people, so they followed the example of Italy and asked us, too. However, the German government was against it, becaus the Turks were from a non-western culture. Also, we didn´t have a lack of working force anymore. But because Turkey was a NATO member and important in the conflict with the Soviets Germany - under pressure - decided to support Turkey by taking unemployed Turks to Germany. It was a favor from our side. The original plan was to send them back after two years - because we knew that everything else would cause trouble. For some reason, probably because of stupid leftists, they were not sent back. And now we have a big problem.

[Partizan]

Do you really think I don´t know that story? I did some research and found out that this version is not true. The Italians asked us to accept their workers, and we accepted them, because we also benefitted. Turkey had many unemployed people, so they followed the example of Italy and asked us, too. However, the German government was against it, becaus the Turks were from a non-western culture. Also, we didn´t have a lack of working force anymore. But because Turkey was a NATO member and important in the conflict with the Soviets Germany - under pressure - decided to support Turkey by taking unemployed Turks to Germany. It was a favor from our side. The original plan was to send them back after two years - because we knew that everything else would cause trouble. For some reason, probably because of stupid leftists, they were not sent back. And know we have a big problem.


http://www.bikechatforums.com/files/cool_story_bro.jpeg

[Partizan]

ficus, if even your story is true, go and blame NATO, OK? Since you can't say anything against your Judeo-Euro-Atlantic masters, you wreak your anger on Turks :) However if even your stupid story is true, guilty here is NATO and the US firstly.

[ficuscarica]

Well, if the Turks know they are not welcome, they can simply leave. If you stay were you are not welcome, in other people´s countries, you are a parasite. They say they are proud Turks - please, go home to your great Turkey then...

[Partizan]

Well, if the Turks know they are not welcome, they can simply leave. If you stay were you are not welcome, in other people´s countries, you are a parasite. They say they are proud Turks - please, go home to your great Turkey then...

I've studied German in Germany for one month, I never experienced discrimination or a negative attitude against me because of being Turk. Also I have German friends(exchange students) in my university, none of them bitch about Turks unlike you TA Krauts. Keep your racist fantasies to yourself.

[ficuscarica]

They are friendly to you as an individual. This doesn´t change that all together the Germans would be happy if the Turks left.
Let me put it like that: There are some immigrants that I would like to stay, but if I had to decide between either all stay or all leave, I would immediately say: all leave. And I think that is true for most Germans when it comes to the Turks.

And of course those who come to Turkey as exchange students have a good view of Turks... This has nothing to do with the average opinion.