On Estonian Swedes and forced assimilation campaign of the Republic of Estonia

[Brännvin]

@EWtt, in response to this post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=74794&postcount=53), though it was the better source in english that I found;

On Estonian Swedes and assimilation campaign of the Republic of Estonia (http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~lehti/Oralhistory/1.1.Alar.htm#anchor4070694)

[EWtt]

Why alter the title of the article? :rolleyes2:

Well, I've always held ethnic minorities such as the Coastal Swedes, Estophile Baltic Germans and Peipsi Russians in high regard, but it is only natural they had to be able to communicate in Estonian... I can't whitewash any decisions the government may have made back then, but what I know for sure is that no one expelled them from the country - they escaped due to imminent Soviet occupation.

However, how does that compare to the situation ethnic minorities (such as the Sami) had in Sweden?

[Äike]

This Brännvin guy doesn't know crap about Coastal-Swedes. Such ignorance should be punishable. I'm 1/8 Coastal-Swede and a bit offended. This post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=74790&postcount=52) is just "amazing".

Forced assimilation and genocide? :loco:

[Brännvin]

Why alter the title of the article? :rolleyes2:

Do you actually read the text and historical context in question?

The late 1930s saw the restriction of opportunities for minority groups by laws established by the Estonian nationalistic campaigns. In 1935 the campaign of Estonianising personal names, foreign language schools began to emphasise Estonian language learning, children born from mixed marriages were often involuntarily given Estonian nationality, church ministers had to have an Estonian citizenship. Various laws and regulations vexed the Estonian Swedes' sense of justice. Until then they had regarded themselves as loyal citizens of the Republic of Estonia. Thus they had every right to be disappointed in Estonianisation campaigns during the period.

http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~lehti/Oralhistory/1.1.Alar.htm



Well, I've always held ethnic minorities such as the Coastal Swedes, Estophile Baltic Germans and Peipsi Russians in high regard, but it is only natural they had to be able to communicate in Estonian...

Something contrary to the laws of ethnic and linguistic minorities that Estonia had adopted after the end of first world war and its independence from Russia.



I can't whitewash any decisions the government may have made back then, but what I know for sure is that no one expelled them from the country - they escaped due to imminent Soviet occupation.

Most of "Aibofolke" were shipped to Sweden in 1945, this shipment was agreed by an official pact with Sweden and Soviets. It was not a process of fleeing or escape.

There was animosity between them and the Estonians before the second war, then blame exclusively Russians or Soviets for it is an historical whopper



However, how does that compare to the situation ethnic minorities (such as the Sami) had in Sweden?

I can not see any kind of comparison between a and the other case


Forced assimilation and genocide?

Well, forced assimilation of any minority group is considered a form of genocide.

[EWtt]

Something contrary to the laws of ethnic and linguistic minorities that Estonia had adopted after the end of first world war and its independence from Russia.

So, that they had to know the official language of the Republic of Estonia is Nazi forced assimilation?!


Most of "Aibofolke" were shipped to Sweden in 1945, this shipment was agreed by an official pact with Sweden and Soviets. It was not a process of fleeing or escape.

This is nonsense.

Soviets even burned their boats so they could not escape. By 1945 the majority (over 9000) Estonian Swedes had already escaped together with thousands and thousands of Estonians.


There was animosity between them and the Estonians before the second war, then blame exclusively Russians or Soviets for it is an historical whopper

You don't seem to get anything. Russians/Soviets didn't expel them, nor did Estonians. They left out of free will to escape due to the fact that the Soviets were about to occupy the country. Historical fact.


I can not see any kind of comparison between a and the other case

You should look into the treatment the Sami have experienced in Sweden.

Karl's post says everything necessary and seems to be awfully too true, so I won't be discussing this matter any further.

[EWtt]

One more thing which I couldn't add to the previous post anymore.

The article is mostly about the dire situation in late 1930s. From 1934 onwards Estonia was pretty much under dictatorship after a coup (the period is known as the Era of Silence in Estonian history), curtailment of political and civil rights also applied to Estonians.

[Albion]

I can see the Estonians love this thread. :p

[Peerkons]

Estonian fuckers!

[Äike]

I can see the Estonians love this thread. :p

This thread is about Estonia and the Estonian people.

The Estonian-Swedes considered themselves to be Estonian and called Estonia their fatherland.


Estonian fuckers!

Be careful, trolling too much might get you into trouble.

[Albion]

This thread is about Estonia and the Estonian people.

The Estonian-Swedes considered themselves to be Estonian and called Estonia their fatherland.



Be careful, trolling too much might get you into trouble.

Whatever. I'd like to see what Swedes say too though.

[Äike]

Whatever. I'd like to see what Swedes say too though.

Whatever? I am from the shores of Western-Estonia and I have (distant) Estonian-Swede ancestry.

Swedes living in Sweden do not have anything to do with the Estonian-Swedes. Although most of the Estonian-Swedes(+ 70 000 Estonians, everyone fled who had the chance) fled to Sweden in 1940 and 1944.


In 1937 the vice-minister of internal affairs Eugen Madissoo participated in the Victory Day (1) celebrations on the island of Vormsi. In his welcoming address he expressed his appreciation of the Estonian Swedes, who had fulfilled their national duty to the Republic of Estonia. After the song following Madissoo's speech the floor was given to Johan Hörnström, a Estonian-Swedish veteran of the Estonian War of Independence who spoke:

I remember the times when people of Estonia lived under foreign rule. We, the Swedes and the Estonians, suffered under the same oppression when we did not merely have to study the Russian language at school, but had to learn in the Russian language. The Estonians have learned from their experience, and what that means, now they should allow the Swedish to keep what is important for us - our mother tongue. When they had to fight for freedom, our sons fought side by side with the Estonians. Many fell for their fatherland. [---] We, the Swedes and the Estonians, must stand together to defend our country. Let our country grow stronger, better, richer and happier.

[Talvi]

Digging up posts from 3 years ago to troll is SO COOL! WOW! Im so impressed I can barely contain myself.


On "Estonianizing names". I hardly doubt anyone was ever forced. It was mainly for Estonians who were forced to have Germanic names and such. There are still many -mans, -bergs, -thals and sons here.

[Peerkons]

The Estonian-Swedes considered themselves to be Estonian
Do Finland-Swedes consider themselves Finnish?

[Albion]

Digging up posts from 3 years ago to troll is SO COOL! WOW! Im so impressed I can barely contain myself.

Oh yeah! Saying a passing comment like 'I can see the Estonians love this thread.' is really trollish isn't it? Fucking moron.
I just happened to be reading some of the posts in the archive, I don't care how old a thread is, it can be from the time of the dinosaurs and be in ancient Greek for all I care.

I can't help it if Balticus makes a comment you don't like or anyone else for that matter - take it on the chin like every other nationality.

And a discussion on trolling coming from the Estonians? Yeah, please spare me the fucking lecture - every other thing you lot write on here (especially Karl) is some sort of trolling, derogatory post against Russians (who I don't happen to love myself but still).

Edit:- And just for the record I was interested in whether or not this is true and what Estonians thought about it.
If you really can't tell my original comment of 'The Estonians are going to love this' was SARCASTIC. Sarcasm is meant to be a trait of Northern European cultures, the very one's you bang on about being part of! If you're Northern European then you should be familiar we Northern European cultural traits.

Rant finished.

[Talvi]

Oh yeah! Saying a passing comment like 'I can see the Estonians love this thread.' is really trollish isn't it? Fucking moron.
I just happened to be reading some of the posts in the archive, I don't care how old a thread is, it can be from the time of the dinosaurs and be in ancient Greek for all I care.

I can't help it if Balticus makes a comment you don't like or anyone else for that matter - take it on the chin like every other nationality.

And a discussion on trolling coming from the Estonians? Yeah, please spare me the fucking lecture - every other thing you lot write on here (especially Karl) is some sort of trolling, derogatory post against Russians (who I don't happen to love myself but still).

Edit:- And just for the record I was interested in whether or not this is true and what Estonians thought about it.
If you really can't tell my original comment of 'The Estonians are going to love this' was SARCASTIC. Sarcasm is meant to be a trait of Northern European cultures, the very one's you bang on about being part of! If you're Northern European then you should be familiar we Northern European cultural traits.

Rant finished.

Well, I think you need to, fucking, chill.

[Albion]

Well, I think you need to, fucking, chill.

I think you're completely right. Everywhere I'm surrounded by muppets who won't shut the hell up, so maybe I got a bit pissed when coming on here and being called a troll.
Don't throw around silly playground names in future.

Oh, and please except my apologies for being so rude earlier, but understand it was not without reason.

[Eldritch]

Do Finland-Swedes consider themselves Finnish?

You don't really deserve a serious answer based on your previous contribution to this thread, but here it is anyway: some of them do, some of them don't. I'm not an expert, but I'd say the ones that don't are a minority within a minority. And then there's PeterThaGreat, who considers himself a Finn-Swede, although he isn't one.

And if this isn't what you wanted to hear, tell that to someone else, because I don't care.

[Albion]

You don't really deserve a serious answer based on your previous contribution to this thread, but here it is anyway: some of them do, some of them don't. I'm not an expert, but I'd say the ones that don't are a minority within a minority. And then there's PeterThaGreat, who considers himself a Finn-Swede, although he isn't one.

And if this isn't what you wanted to hear, tell that to someone else, because I don't care.

I knew a girl from Finland before with what I thought sounded like a Swedish surname (it was something like 'Lindstrum') and I thought that sounded pretty Swedish. So when I asked here if she spoke Swedish she said she only knows a bit and that she is Finnish. I don't know, maybe Finns and Finland Swedes are the same people now.
Is that mostly the case Eldritch?

[Eldritch]

I knew a girl from Finland before with what I thought sounded like a Swedish surname (it was something like 'Lindstrum') and I thought that sounded pretty Swedish. So when I asked here if she spoke Swedish she said she only knows a bit and that she is Finnish. I don't know, maybe Finns and Finland Swedes are the same people now.
Is that mostly the case Eldritch?

Well, yes and no. I guess I could half fit into the same category as the girl you knew (the right spelling is "Lindström", btw), since both my mother, as well as her own mother, had Swedish maiden names, yet both were/are Finnish-speakers, with no Swedish-speakers in the family in living memory.

[And I'm from Päijänne-Tavastia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Päijänne_Tavastia), a region that, like most of central/northern/eastern Finland, has no historical Swedish-speaking minority.]

But there are some, eh, Swedish-speaking Finns, or Swedish-speaking Finnish citizens, who consider themselves Swedes who just happened to be born on this side of the gulf of Bothnia. I'm not an expert on the matter, but Vonnita is -- I wish she were still here to pitch in.

[Äike]

Oh yeah! Saying a passing comment like 'I can see the Estonians love this thread.' is really trollish isn't it? Fucking moron.
I just happened to be reading some of the posts in the archive, I don't care how old a thread is, it can be from the time of the dinosaurs and be in ancient Greek for all I care.

I can't help it if Balticus makes a comment you don't like or anyone else for that matter - take it on the chin like every other nationality.

And a discussion on trolling coming from the Estonians? Yeah, please spare me the fucking lecture - every other thing you lot write on here (especially Karl) is some sort of trolling, derogatory post against Russians (who I don't happen to love myself but still).

Edit:- And just for the record I was interested in whether or not this is true and what Estonians thought about it.
If you really can't tell my original comment of 'The Estonians are going to love this' was SARCASTIC. Sarcasm is meant to be a trait of Northern European cultures, the very one's you bang on about being part of! If you're Northern European then you should be familiar we Northern European cultural traits.

Rant finished.

Ignore Balticus, his only purpose on this forum is to troll Estonians and he can do that unpunished.

I spotted the sarcasm in your post, but still, your posts in this thread haven't been quite "positive".

"Let's see what the Swedes say about it" etc.

They don't know a thing about the Estonian-Swedes.

The Estonian-Swedes were and are an integral part of Estonian culture and history, they have lived here for 700 years(not like the recent foreign Eastern-European Russian immigrants who have been here for ~40 years), until the Soviets invaded. I have some distant Estonian-Swede ancestry and I am from the shores Western-Estonia. Thus I know more about them than the average Estonian.

Btw, it's hard to find a more sarcastic person than me on this forum, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten into trouble before, for my sarcastic comments about this forum in the past... Talking about Northern-Europeans, you definitely aren't one, my Western-European friend. :)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Ignore Balticus, his only purpose on this forum is to troll Estonians and he can do that unpunished.

I spotted the sarcasm in your post, but still, your posts in this thread haven't been quite "positive".

"Let's see what the Swedes say about it" etc.

They don't know a thing about the Estonian-Swedes.

The Estonian-Swedes were and are an integral part of Estonian culture and history, they have lived here for 700 years(not like the recent foreign Eastern-European Russian immigrants who have been here for ~40 years), until the Soviets invaded. I have some distant Estonian-Swede ancestry and I am from the shores Western-Estonia. Thus I know more about them than the average Estonian.

Btw, it's hard to find a more sarcastic person than me on this forum, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten into trouble before, for my sarcastic comments about this forum in the past... Talking about Northern-Europeans, you definitely aren't one, my Western-European friend. :)

Which culture would you say have had a more significant influence on Estonia? German or Swedish?

[Talvi]

Which culture would you say have had a more significant influence on Estonia? German or Swedish?

I think on the whole its German and North-West and islands is Swedish.

[Albion]

Well, yes and no. I guess I could half fit into the same category as the girl you knew (the right spelling is "Lindström", btw), since both my mother, as well as her own mother, had Swedish maiden names, yet both were/are Finnish-speakers, with no Swedish-speakers in the family in living memory.

[And I'm from Päijänne-Tavastia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Päijänne_Tavastia), a region that, like most of central/northern/eastern Finland, has no historical Swedish-speaking minority.]

But there are some, eh, Swedish-speaking Finns, or Swedish-speaking Finnish citizens, who consider themselves Swedes who just happened to be born on this side of the gulf of Bothnia. I'm not an expert on the matter, but Vonnita is -- I wish she were still here to pitch in.

Did some Finns adopt Swedish as Irish adopted English?

[Äike]

Which culture would you say have had a more significant influence on Estonia? German or Swedish?

Well, the Estonians had strong ties with the Scandinavians, since 2000 BC, before terms like "Swedish" and "German" existed. Estonia was part of the Nordic Bronze age and some historians go far enough to call Estonia a (culturally) southern-Scandinavian province during the bronze age. The burial customs were the same and so on. Estonian also has a lot of loan words from proto-Germanic/Scandinavian.

I happened to read some texts in Estonian one day and one linguist brought out an interesting fact. There used to be an old Finnic word for "seal" in Estonian, which the Estonians had used for thousands of years, but the ties with the Scandinavians were so tight that even commonly used words were replaced by Scandinavian loan words.

The coastal areas of Estonia had forts/towns that were trading centres of some sorts, where the Estonians spoke both Estonian and some Scandinavian language, while the Scandinavians also spoke some kind of Finnic language, as they visited this place so often.

When we can start talking about German influence from 1227, then we can start talking about Scandinavian influence from 2000 BC.

I just summed up some things, but this part of Estonian history is quite interesting, especially the archeological finds.

[Albion]

Btw, it's hard to find a more sarcastic person than me on this forum, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten into trouble before, for my sarcastic comments about this forum in the past... Talking about Northern-Europeans, you definitely aren't one, my Western-European friend. :)

Northern Europe starts at the Netherlands / North Germany.

http://juniperlynnhill.net/FinnishMusic%20Fall%2005/nordic%20baltic%20map.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Satellite_image_of_Northern_Europe.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Septentrionales.jpg/800px-Septentrionales.jpg

But myself I prefer North West Europe - British Isles, Faroe and Iceland - Western Europe is France and the Benelux and South West Europe is Iberia.

Its a bit like that with the Baltics too, Scandinavia is the true "Northern Europe" with the Baltics and Northern European Russia forming North East Europe.

But then we encounter another problem, the British Isles are off the North West area of Europe but are not part of the continent proper but instead some surrounding islands grouped with it as Iceland is.
So I'll stick to "British Isles" for the region I most identify with, then there's no confusion. And for the record sarcasm is prevalent here too, Americans often speak of "the people who say friendly things but aren't really trying to be friendly" in London. :D

Wow, this went off topic.

[Wyn]

Why do we all fight so much? It doesn't matter if you're Western (Spanish, Icelandic, Welsh) or Eastern/Slavic (Russian, Estonian) European. We should all be proud to be part of the great Greco-Roman Civilisation that is Europe.

Edit: lolanotherkarlnegrep.

[Äike]

Northern Europe starts at the Netherlands / North Germany.

http://juniperlynnhill.net/FinnishMusic%20Fall%2005/nordic%20baltic%20map.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Satellite_image_of_Northern_Europe.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Septentrionales.jpg/800px-Septentrionales.jpg

But myself I prefer North West Europe - British Isles, Faroe and Iceland - Western Europe is France and the Benelux and South West Europe is Iberia.

Its a bit like that with the Baltics too, Scandinavia is the true "Northern Europe" with the Baltics and Northern European Russia forming North East Europe.

But then we encounter another problem, the British Isles are off the North West area of Europe but are not part of the continent proper but instead some surrounding islands grouped with it as Iceland is.
So I'll stick to "British Isles" for the region I most identify with, then there's no confusion. And for the record sarcasm is prevalent here too, Americans often speak of "the people who say friendly things but aren't really trying to be friendly" in London. :D

Wow, this went off topic.

Neither the Balts/Baltic people, Central-Europeans nor Western-Europeans are Northern-European. Although the Balts are located in Northern-Europe.

Here are some classical maps, without countries that aren't located in Northern-Europe:

http://countries-of-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Northern-Europe.png

http://www.europeancuisines.com/images/Northern-Europe-Map.jpg

http://www.wanderlustore.com/site_assets/www.wanderlustore.com/images/dynamic/Northern_Europe_map.png

http://www.nativewiki.org/images/3/3c/Europe-septentrionale.png


Why do we all fight so much? It doesn't matter if you're Western (Spanish, Icelandic, Welsh) or Eastern/Slavic (Russian, Estonian) European. We should all be proud to be part of the great Greco-Roman Civilisation that is Europe.

Well, my ignorant and dumb friend, the city where I live in is flooded with completely alien and foreign Eastern-European immigrants, mostly from Russia. Thus I have to point out that the Estonian people aren't neither Eastern-European nor Slavic.

The Balts are a bunch of Balto-Slavs and share a common origin with their Balto-Slavic cousins, the Russians.

The Estonians are proud of their Finnic(Finns also belong into this group, I'm mentioning this as you probably didn't know that this term even exists) heritage.

[Äike]

Edit: lolanotherkarlnegrep.

Calling the Estonians, Eastern-European Slavs makes as much sense as calling the English a bunch of Southern-European Sicilians.

On a board like this, where people should be educated about Europeans, their cultures and history, making statements like that leads to getting negative reputation points.

[Wyn]

Well, my ignorant and dumb friend, the city where I live in is flooded with completely alien and foreign Eastern-European immigrants, mostly from Russia. Thus I have to point out that the Estonian people aren't neither Eastern-European nor Slavic.

The Balts are a bunch of Balto-Slavs and share a common origin with their Balto-Slavic cousins, the Russians.

The Estonians are proud of their Finnic(Finns also belong into this group, I'm mentioning this as you probably didn't know that this term even exists) heritage.

You'll notice I said Eastern/Slavic. They - obviously - aren't the same thing. Case in point: Estonia is in Eastern Europe, but Estonians are not Slavs.

[Äike]

You'll notice I said Eastern/Slavic. They - obviously - aren't the same thing. Case in point: Estonia is in Eastern Europe, but Estonians are not Slavs.

Nobody call Finland nor Estonia, Eastern-European countries, because we aren't even slightly similar to the Eastern-Europeans.

Stop living in the year of 1971.

This is the border between traditionally Western and Eastern cultures.

http://www.klint.envir.ee/klint/Pildid/650/61-narva.jpg

A Danish built fort on the Western side and a Russian built(it was built considerably later) fort on the eastern side.

[Albion]

Neither the Balts/Baltic people, Central-Europeans nor Western-Europeans are Northern-European. Although the Balts are located in Northern-Europe.

Here are some classical maps, without countries that aren't located in Northern-Europe:

http://countries-of-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Northern-Europe.png

http://www.europeancuisines.com/images/Northern-Europe-Map.jpg

http://www.wanderlustore.com/site_assets/www.wanderlustore.com/images/dynamic/Northern_Europe_map.png

http://www.nativewiki.org/images/3/3c/Europe-septentrionale.png



Balts have always inhabited Northern Europe just as Finnics have and the Germanics who spread from there.
If the Balts aren't Northern European then I don't know what is, they're not "Nordic" (aka Fenno-Scandinavian) obviously because they fit in with neither the Finnics nor the Scandinavian branch of the Germanics.
"Nordic" is a crap term if I'm honest, its based on a geographical term that Scandinavians and Finns use for self-glorification whilst somehow other inhabitants of the North of Europe aren't "Nordic" (i.e. Balts).

If someone invented the term "Sudic" tomorrow I suppose the Meds would jump on it, but wouldn't it be strange if it were used by the Romanics (Italians, Portuguese, French, Spanish) whilst excluding the other Mediterranean dwellers such as the Greeks or South Slavs? Well that's the situation with "Nordic".


Well, my ignorant and dumb friend, the city where I live in is flooded with completely alien and foreign Eastern-European immigrants, mostly from Russia. Thus I have to point out that the Estonian people aren't neither Eastern-European nor Slavic.

The Balts are a bunch of Balto-Slavs and share a common origin with their Balto-Slavic cousins, the Russians.

The Estonians are proud of their Finnic(Finns also belong into this group, I'm mentioning this as you probably didn't know that this term even exists) heritage.

Yes, I have to agree. I did a bit of research on Finnics and Balts in the past and the origins of both are totally different. However similarities have developed over time due to geographical proximity, but that is expected and it mirrors the relations between Germanics and Celts in the British Isles (English and the other inhabitants).

I always wondered why the Finnics were absorbed in such a large area of their former range in NW Russia too, unless it was that they were forced out.
It also interested me how the Germanics initially confined to Southern Scandinavia spread up through Norway and Sweden, I'd be interested to know what happened to the Sami, if any were assimilated or if they were just pushed back (I suspect assimilated but Swedes and Norwegians have vehemently told me otherwise).

The Balts are also interesting, they're probably at more risk of being assimilated by the larger cultures than the Celts. Its a shame they lost the Prussians. Baltic culture is great too.

[Wyn]

Nobody call Finland nor Estonia, Eastern-European countries, because we aren't even slightly similar to the Eastern-Europeans.

Stop living in the year of 1971.

This is the border between traditionally Western and Eastern cultures.

http://www.klint.envir.ee/klint/Pildid/650/61-narva.jpg

A Danish built fort on the Western side and a Russian built(it was built considerably later) fort on the eastern side.

There is no universally accepted definition of 'Eastern Europe.' Everybody knows this. Within reason, there are no factually accurate and factually inaccurate definitions of it. Based on personal experience, I would say that most people in places like the British Isles, the US etc. would classify Estonia as an Eastern European country. Because you possess a psychological incapability of being wrong and/or taking part in objective discussion, you write off such opinions as 'ignorant' etc. Which they are not, because there is no universally accepted definition of 'Eastern Europe.'

Though, your ancestors were converted to Western Christianity by Germans/Danes and then to Protestantism by Germans once again, which - at least nominally - makes Estonians a Western European people.


we aren't even slightly similar to the Eastern-Europeans.

= We're not Eastern Europeans because we're not like Eastern Europeans. Circular/retarded reasoning.

Oh and, I was aware of the existence of the term 'Finnic.' I have used it on this website before.

[Äike]

Balts have always inhabited Northern Europe just as Finnics have and the Germanics who spread from there.
If the Balts aren't Northern European then I don't know what is, they're not "Nordic" (aka Fenno-Scandinavian) obviously because they fit in with neither the Finnics nor the Scandinavian branch of the Germanics.
"Nordic" is a crap term if I'm honest, its based on a geographical term that Scandinavians and Finns use for self-glorification whilst somehow other inhabitants of the North of Europe aren't "Nordic" (i.e. Balts).

If someone invented the term "Sudic" tomorrow I suppose the Meds would jump on it, but wouldn't it be strange if it were used by the Romanics (Italians, Portuguese, French, Spanish) whilst excluding the other Mediterranean dwellers such as the Greeks or South Slavs? Well that's the situation with "Nordic".

Nordic isn't a geographical term, Northern-European is a geographical term. Nordic is a ethno-cultural term.

A Balt can be Northern-European(geographically), but he isn't Nordic(culturally).

While the Estonians/Finns are Northern-European and Nordic because of their culture/mentality and so on.


Yes, I have to agree. I did a bit of research on Finnics and Balts in the past and the origins of both are totally different. However similarities have developed over time due to geographical proximity, but that is expected and it mirrors the relations between Germanics and Celts in the British Isles (English and the other inhabitants).

I always wondered why the Finnics were absorbed in such a large area of their former range in NW Russia too, unless it was that they were forced out.
It also interested me how the Germanics initially confined to Southern Scandinavia spread up through Norway and Sweden, I'd be interested to know what happened to the Sami, if any were assimilated or if they were just pushed back (I suspect assimilated but Swedes and Norwegians have vehemently told me otherwise).

Well, the Balts are newcomers to our part of Europe. There once used to the a Finnic tribe living south of the Estonians, the Livonians, they were quite similar to us(more similar than the Finns), but they were gradually assimilated and defeated by the Balts.

The Livonians separated us, the Estonians, from the Balts for quite some time. The majority of any Baltic influence was absorbed by the now extinct Livonians, this is visible in their language. While at the same time, the Estonians weren't influenced by the Balts at all, because of the Livonians seperating them from the Balts. But at one point, the Latgals started bordering South-Eastern Estonia, this resulted in continuous hostility.


The Balts are also interesting, they're probably at more risk of being assimilated by the larger cultures than the Celts. Its a shame they lost the Prussians. Baltic culture is great too.

I agree completely, the Balts are interesting people and their Baltic culture is great. But for some reason, Balts get offended if a Finnic/Nordic Estonian dares to say that he isn't Baltic. The Balts want non-Baltic Estonians to be regarded as Balts, for some reason. While we are tremendously proud of our unique Finnic heritage. We didn't end up like the Livonians, thus there's even more reason to be proud of being Finnic.

[Eldritch]

Did some Finns adopt Swedish as Irish adopted English?

Try these two Wiki articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_Swedish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish-speaking_Finns#History

[Äike]

There is no universally accepted definition of 'Eastern Europe.' Everybody knows this. Within reason, there are no factually accurate and factually inaccurate definitions of it. Based on personal experience, I would say that most people in places like the British Isles, the US etc. would classify Estonia as an Eastern European country. Because you possess a psychological incapability of being wrong and/or taking part in objective discussion, you write off such opinions as 'ignorant' etc. Which they are not, because there is no universally accepted definition of 'Eastern Europe.'

My American friend who's currently in Tallinn didn't have a single doubt of Estonia's "grouping" when he arrived here. Estonia and the Estonians are as Northern-European as possible. He had recently visited Eastern-European Ukraine, thus the difference(according to his words) was quite big.


Though, your ancestors were converted to Western Christianity by Germans/Danes and then to Protestantism by Germans once again, which - at least nominally - makes Estonians a Western European people.

The Estonians fully became Lutherans under Swedish rule, not German... The second oldest university in the Swedish kingdom is located in Tartu, (now independent) Estonia. Swedish rule was quite positive here.


= We're not Eastern Europeans because we're not like Eastern Europeans. Circular/retarded reasoning.

Oh and, I was aware of the existence of the term 'Finnic.' I have used it on this website before.

Have you ever seen a Finn call himself an Eastern-European?

[Lisa]

Genetic Map http://s61.radikal.ru/i173/1104/96/9512ad14e6d3.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

[Äike]

Genetic Map http://s61.radikal.ru/i173/1104/96/9512ad14e6d3.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

Interesting map.

I noticed that your meta-ethnicity is "Finno-Slavic". May I ask from what Finno-Ugric tribe do you have ancestors from? :)

[Wyn]

My American friend who's currently in Tallinn didn't have a single doubt of Estonia's "grouping" when he arrived here. Estonia and the Estonians are as Northern-European as possible. He had recently visited Eastern-European Ukraine, thus the difference(according to his words) was quite big.

That's cool. I have multiple personal examples of the reverse. Which makes perfect sense, as there is no universally accepted definition of Eastern Europe, the one thing you cannot understand/acknowledge as you, as I stated, have a psychological incapability of being wrong and/or taking part in objective discussion.


The Estonians fully became Lutherans under Swedish rule, not German... The second oldest university in the Swedish kingdom is located in Tartu, (now independent) Estonia. Swedish rule was quite positive here.

That is interesting. I was under the impression that the process took place under the German 'Baltic barons':


For more than five hundred years ... German-speaking merchants and artisans dominated political, economic, and cultural life in Tallinn (known by Germans as Reval) and Riga. German lords (seigneurs - "Baltic barons") ruled the manors, where they held Estonians and Latvians as serfs - sometimes breaking up families and selling them like cattle. Germans wrote off Estonians, Latvians, and other subjected peoples as undeutsche - "not-German," and perhaps not fully human ... When Baltic barons chose Protestantism in the sixteenth century, their serfs followed.

Source. (http://books.google.com/books?id=RL1EQI3LnCIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22the+baltic+transformed%22&hl=en&ei=k6-5TZi-A8al8QORnbE2&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Your information is greatly appreciated.


Have you ever seen a Finn call himself an Eastern-European?

I see you've chosen to avoid acknowledging how circular and flawed your reasoning is. Fine.

But to answer your question, no, I have not.

[Albion]

Nordic isn't a geographical term, Northern-European is a geographical term. Nordic is a ethno-cultural term.

Exactly, it shouldn't be. Its simply no better than applying the name "Northerners" which means pretty much the same to themselves, North of where? Africa?
Oh - Europe. So despite there being Russians, Nenets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nenets_people) and Komi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_peoples) who leave further north than most Scandinavians they still see it appropriate to nick the term for themselves?


A Balt can be Northern-European(geographically), but he isn't Nordic(culturally).

Nordic culture doesn't exist. There's Scandinavian - an offshoot of Germanic, Finnic and Baltic.
Scandinavian and Finnic share many traits passed on through geographic proximity so maybe these are what can be termed "Nordic" but its still sounds like a thrown-together grouping to me.
Its pretty much Scandinavianism extended to Finland and Estonia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Skandinavism.jpg/416px-Skandinavism.jpg

Well, the Balts are newcomers to our part of Europe. There once used to the a Finnic tribe living south of the Estonians, the Livonians, they were quite similar to us(more similar than the Finns), but they were gradually assimilated and defeated by the Balts.

The last speaker of Livonian died recently. Its a shame, I always thought Estonia should have annexed Livonia.
I've seen it suggested that Balts share genetic heritage with Finnics and are basically Indo-Europeanized Finnics.


The Livonians separated us, the Estonians, from the Balts for quite some time. The majority of any Baltic influence was absorbed by the now extinct Livonians, this is visible in their language. While at the same time, the Estonians weren't influenced by the Balts at all, because of the Livonians seperating them from the Balts. But at one point, the Latgals started bordering South-Eastern Estonia, this resulted in continuous hostility.

What's wrong with the Latgals? Aren't they some poor offshoot of the Latvians?


I agree completely, the Balts are interesting people and their Baltic culture is great. But for some reason, Balts get offended if a Finnic/Nordic Estonian dares to say that he isn't Baltic. The Balts want non-Baltic Estonians to be regarded as Balts, for some reason. While we are tremendously proud of our unique Finnic heritage. We didn't end up like the Livonians, thus there's even more reason to be proud of being Finnic.

Yes, I agree. The Balts are a different people who give their name to that region in the same way that the Germanics gave theirs to Germania.
Being in a region termed "Baltic" doesn't make you the same as them.

By the way, this might interest you... (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=396552#post396552)

[Äike]

That's cool. I have multiple personal examples of the reverse. Which makes perfect sense, as there is no universally accepted definition of Eastern Europe, the one thing you cannot understand/acknowledge as you, as I stated, have a psychological incapability of being wrong and/or taking part in objective discussion.

What ever, but the Estonians aren't Eastern-European from any viewpoint. We are Lutheran Finnic people, which strongly ties us to the Nordic region and Western culture overall.




That is interesting. I was under the impression that the process took place under the German 'Baltic barons':



Source. (http://books.google.com/books?id=RL1EQI3LnCIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22the+baltic+transformed%22&hl=en&ei=k6-5TZi-A8al8QORnbE2&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Your information is greatly appreciated.

Estonians became Lutherans en masse, during Swedish rule. We would have stayed Catholic without the Swedes. This is very visible when you look at Latvia. Latvians are 50/50 Catholic and Lutheran. Because only parts of Latvia experienced some Swedish rule.

Your "quote" is quite idiotic.

[Äike]

Exactly, it shouldn't be. Its simply no better than applying the name "Northerners" which means pretty much the same to themselves, North of where? Africa?
Oh - Europe. So despite there being Russians, Nenets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nenets_people) and Komi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_peoples) who leave further north than most Scandinavians they still see it appropriate to nick the term for themselves?

Russians didn't inhabit regions so north in history, they started migrating to native Finnic lands in the north, during the Mongol invasion, to flee the Mongols.

Northern part of European Russia = Former Finno-Ugric lands.


Nordic culture doesn't exist.

Yes it does. The first thing that comes to my mind that all Nordics celebrate Jõul/Jul and drink glögg during Jõul. All the Nordics have mutual ethno-cultural traits which form into an unique subgroup.


The last speaker of Livonian died recently. Its a shame, I always thought Estonia should have annexed Livonia.
I've seen it suggested that Balts share genetic heritage with Finnics and are basically Indo-Europeanized Finnics.

Indeed, we liberated the Latvians from the Germans, the Latvian reds and the Russian reds... In return, they got Estonian areas, like Valga and Heinaste.


What's wrong with the Latgals? Aren't they some poor offshoot of the Latvians?

They're one of the Latvian tribes, but I was just saying that the relationship between Finnic people and the Balts was quite negative.


Yes, I agree. The Balts are a different people who give their name to that region in the same way that the Germanics gave theirs to Germania.
Being in a region termed "Baltic" doesn't make you the same as them.

By the way, this might interest you... (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=396552#post396552)

Yes indeed, it's kind of disturbing when people assume that we are some kind of Balts who are identical to the Lithuanians or so. Although the true Balts belong into another cultural group.

[Wyn]

What ever

Quite.


but the Estonians aren't Eastern-European from any viewpoint.

You seem almost bent on showing how incapable of objective discussion you are. As everybody knows, there are no univ... meh, forget it. :shrug:


We are Lutheran Finnic people, which strongly ties us to the Nordic region and Western culture overall.

Yes, as I said, you are at least nominally Western European, as you your ancestors were converted to Western Christianity. I amend my initial point: your ancestors were first converted to Western Christianity by Germans/Danes, then began converting to Protestantism under Germans, before fully converting to Protestantism under Swedes.

As I have said, your information is greatly appreciated. There is no shame in being wrong, only in refusing to accept the possibility that you might be wrong.


Estonians became Lutherans en masse, during Swedish rule. We would have stayed Catholic without the Swedes. This is very visible when you look at Latvia. Latvians are 50/50 Catholic and Lutheran. Because only parts of Latvia experienced some Swedish rule.

See above.

[Talvi]

Yes it does. The first thing that comes to my mind that all Nordics celebrate Jõul/Jul and drink glögg during Jõul. All the Nordics have mutual ethno-cultural traits which form into an unique subgroup.



.. Because it means "Christmas", celebrated by many / winter solstice celebrated , also, by many ?! lol.

[Albion]

Russians didn't inhabit regions so north in history, they started migrating to native Finnic lands in the north, during the Mongol invasion, to flee the Mongols.

I'd heard about them settling the shores of the White Sea but I don't think it matters. The Swedish and Norwegians were only reaching Lappland in the early Middle Ages.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Skandinavien_Wikingerzeit.JPG/250px-Skandinavien_Wikingerzeit.JPG


Northern part of European Russia = Former Finno-Ugric lands

Yep, as are the former North and Central parts of Sweden and Norway.



Yes it does. The first thing that comes to my mind that all Nordics celebrate Jõul/Jul and drink glögg during Jõul. All the Nordics have mutual ethno-cultural traits which form into an unique subgroup.

OK. Yule seems to hark back to Pagan times before everywhere was Christianized, here we preserved the name 'Yule' for that time of year in a few areas of the country such as Tynedale and in the name of the Yule log.

They're one of the Latvian tribes, but I was just saying that the relationship between Finnic people and the Balts was quite negative.


celebrated , also, by many ?! lol.

I think he's referring to the underlying Germanic paganism in Yuletide, but that's quite common throughout different regions of Europe, even in Austria and some of the underlying pagan customs have been passed onto even groups such as the French and South Slavs via the Germanics.

[Óttar]

Impossible! Don't you know?! Estonians are really just a kind of Finn, which is in a strange way, technically a kind of Swede. Therefore Estonians = Swedes. :P

[Peerkons]

Karl you are so boring.:icon_cry:

By the way, Latvians aren't 50/50 Catholic and Protestant.
As you follow by wikipedia, but it isn't always a reliable source.
Maybe in statistics show up so, but its mostly because people from Protestant families have become secular and are not registered at the Church. But Catholics are more traditional and go to church etc.

Only the orange part of Latvia, Latgale is Catholic/Old Believers.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/lv/thumb/3/38/Latvijas_regioni_karte.png/300px-Latvijas_regioni_karte.png

[Talvi]

I think he's referring to the underlying Germanic paganism in Yuletide, but that's quite common throughout different regions of Europe, even in Austria and some of the underlying pagan customs have been passed onto even groups such as the French and South Slavs via the Germanics.

Yes well, I think most cultures have celebrated winter (or other) solstice. What varies is what we do and how we call it. Drinking glöggi is probably a much newer thing....

But I dont know, Im too swarthy to have a real opinion on being related to Swedes. :P (Although thats why my grandmother says we dont have blonde hair, those Swedes brought it into our family.)

[Äike]

Quite.



You seem almost bent on showing how incapable of objective discussion you are. As everybody knows, there are no univ... meh, forget it. :shrug:



Yes, as I said, you are at least nominally Western European, as you your ancestors were converted to Western Christianity. I amend my initial point: your ancestors were first converted to Western Christianity by Germans/Danes, then began converting to Protestantism under Germans, before fully converting to Protestantism under Swedes.

As I have said, your information is greatly appreciated. There is no shame in being wrong, only in refusing to accept the possibility that you might be wrong.



See above.

The Estonians and the Finns were converted to Christianity, what's your point?

I think it's sad though, the Estonian vikings were one of the main reasons why the Germans, Danes and Swedes all invaded Estonia at the same time.

Denmark and Sweden were suffering under serious raids by the Estonian vikings and King Valdemar II of Denmark and his kingdom wasn't powerful enough to defeat us. Pissing off the Germans(merchants mostly, who were constantly harassed by the "kings of the Baltic sea") was the last straw.

By forcefully converting the Estonians into Christianity, the last vikings of Europe were defeated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharapita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oeselians

Being part of the Northern-European pagan cultural group was better for the Estonians than to be subjugated to Christianity.


.. Because it means "Christmas", celebrated by many / winter solstice celebrated , also, by many ?! lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_worldwide#Northern_Europe


OK. Yule seems to hark back to Pagan times before everywhere was Christianized, here we preserved the name 'Yule' for that time of year in a few areas of the country such as Tynedale and in the name of the Yule log.

I think he's referring to the underlying Germanic paganism in Yuletide, but that's quite common throughout different regions of Europe, even in Austria and some of the underlying pagan customs have been passed onto even groups such as the French and South Slavs via the Germanics.

I was referring to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_worldwide#Northern_Europe


Impossible! Don't you know?! Estonians are really just a kind of Finn, which is in a strange way, technically a kind of Swede. Therefore Estonians = Swedes. :P

Estonians are proud of their unique Finnic identity, labeling us as Balts or Germanics is wrong.

We may be Nordic, thus in the same group as the Scandinavians, but we the Estonians and the Finns differ from them with our Finnicness.


Karl you are so boring.:icon_cry:

By the way, Latvians aren't 50/50 Catholic and Protestant.
As you follow by wikipedia, but it isn't always a reliable source.
Maybe in statistics show up so, but its mostly because people from Protestant families have become secular and are not registered at the Church. But Catholics are more traditional and go to church etc.

Only the orange part of Latvia, Latgale is Catholic/Old Believers.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/lv/thumb/3/38/Latvijas_regioni_karte.png/300px-Latvijas_regioni_karte.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia#Religion


The largest religion in Latvia is Christianity,[3] though only about 7% of the population attends religious services regularly.[68] The largest groups as of 2006 were:

* Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia – 450,000[69]
* Roman Catholic – 430,000[69]

Looks like 50/50 to me.


Yes well, I think most cultures have celebrated winter (or other) solstice. What varies is what we do and how we call it. Drinking glöggi is probably a much newer thing....

But I dont know, Im too swarthy to have a real opinion on being related to Swedes. :P (Although thats why my grandmother says we dont have blonde hair, those Swedes brought it into our family.)

If I didn't have any Estonian-Swede ancestors then I would have blond hair and blue eyes, but because of my swarthy(:p), non-Finnic Estonian-Swede ancestors, I have blond hair and green eyes.

You have to visit Sweden, statistically Finns are the blondest people in the world with the Estonians and the Swedes sharing 2nd place, but there are definitely more "dark" individuals there, especially in Scania(German influence, I guess).

An average Estonian has lighter eyes than most Scandinavians. (http://westernparadigm.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/blue_eyes_map2.jpg)

[Don Brick]

You have to visit Sweden, statistically Finns are the blondest people in the world with the Estonians and the Swedes sharing 2nd place, but there are definitely more "dark" individuals there, especially in Scania(German influence, I guess).


Oh really? Why am I completely black then...? :confused:

[Talvi]

Oh really? Why am I completely black then...? :confused:

... I remember you being blonde?! Have you been posting fake pics? And the guy making out with Liia in her signature is not you?

[Wyn]

The Estonians and the Finns were converted to Christianity, what's your point?

I think it's sad though, the Estonian vikings were one of the main reasons why the Germans, Danes and Swedes all invaded Estonia at the same time.

Denmark and Sweden were suffering under serious raids by the Estonian vikings and King Valdemar II of Denmark and his kingdom wasn't powerful enough to defeat us. Pissing off the Germans(merchants mostly, who were constantly harassed by the "kings of the Baltic sea") was the last straw.

By forcefully converting the Estonians into Christianity, the last vikings of Europe were defeated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharapita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oeselians

Being part of the Northern-European pagan cultural group was better for the Estonians than to be subjugated to Christianity.


I think it's very interesting that you're asking me what my point is, considering that you have spent the better part of this discussion ignoring my points. My point was clear from the beginning:


Though, your ancestors were converted to Western Christianity ... which - at least nominally - makes Estonians a Western European people.

I have amended part of this statement, but the particulars are not important. What you have forgotten (or rather, what you have been trying to avoid) is that we are having a discussion on Eastern/Western Europe and the definitions thereof with regards to Estonia. Since the Western Christian/Eastern Christian division is often used as a historical reference point, I - for the sake of balance and objectivity - brought up the Estonians' history of Western Christianity.

Your prattle about 'Estonian Vikings' has nothing to do with such a debate. But I expect very little else from you.

[Äike]

I think it's very interesting that you're asking me what my point is, considering that you have spent the better part of this discussion ignoring my points. My point was clear from the beginning:



I have amended part of this statement, but the particulars are not important. What you have forgotten (or rather, what you have been trying to avoid) is that we are having a discussion on Eastern/Western Europe and the definitions thereof with regards to Estonia. Since the Western Christian/Eastern Christian division is often used as a historical reference point, I - for the sake of balance and objectivity - brought up the Estonians' history of Western Christianity.

Estonians have never been part of "Eastern Christianity", by your statements, I wouldn't be surprised if you thought that the Estonians were converted from Orthodox Christianity into Catholicism. As you strike me as very ignorant individual, thus I did point out that the Estonians were pagan.


Your prattle about 'Estonian Vikings' has nothing to do with such a debate. But I expect very little else from you.

I was just pointing out that becoming Christians wasn't a good thing for us, we were feared in Northern-Europe before we were subdued.

[Don Brick]

... I remember you being blonde?! Have you been posting fake pics? And the guy making out with Liia in her signature is not you?

See how I bolded the text in my post? :p Yes, bad joke and lame trolling, sorry. Everybody carry on as you were. :D

...

[Wyn]

Estonians have never been part of "Eastern Christianity", by your statements,

I know. I made it very clear that Estonians were historically a Western Christian people and that this would nominally make them a Western European people. I raised this very point.


I wouldn't be surprised if you thought that the Estonians were converted from Orthodox Christianity into Catholicism.

I care very little for what does and does not surprise you.


thus I did point out that the Estonians were pagan.

I, like everyone else, knew this.


I was just pointing out that becoming Christians wasn't a good thing for us, we were feared in Northern-Europe before we were subdued.

Nice. That has nothing to do with this discussion though. I merely pointed out that Estonians have a history of Western Christianity, which would nominally make them Western Europeans.

I have never claimed or even implied that Estonians were ever followers of Eastern Christianity. I, of course, began discussing Estonia's Western Christian history precisely because it gives the debate some balance. But I don't expect you to understand this.

[Äike]

I know. I made it very clear that Estonians were historically a Western Christian people and that this would nominally make them a Western European people. I raised this very point.



I care very little for what does and does not surprise you.



I, like everyone else, knew this.



Nice. That has nothing to do with this discussion though. I merely pointed out that Estonians have a history of Western Christianity, which would nominally make them Western Europeans.

I have never claimed or even implied that Estonians were ever followers of Eastern Christianity. I, of course, began discussing Estonia's Western Christian history precisely because it gives the debate some balance. But I don't expect you to understand this.

Estonians have historically been Western Christians, thus they're Westerners, chapter closed. Your point made it across now. :p

[Wyn]

Estonians have historically been Western Christians, thus they're Westerners, chapter closed.

No, that is but one factor (it is generally used as a historical reference point). There are many others. If it was purely down to Western/Eastern Christianity then Slovakia etc. would be recognised by all as 'Western Europe.' Like I said, it would at least nominally make Estonians a Western European people.


Your point made it across now. :p

I'm afraid not. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you still have much to learn.

[Äike]

No, that is but one factor (it is generally used as a historical reference point). There are many others. If it was purely down to Western/Eastern Christianity then Slovakia etc. would be recognised by all as 'Western Europe.' Like I said, it would at least nominally make Estonians a Western European people.



I'm afraid not. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you still have much to learn.

You do have a point, I cannot imagine how a Slav could be a Westerner, even if they are Catholic.

The Slavs are a tight knit group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Slavism).

[Lisa]

Orthodox Setu not Western. And from what the West is to be cool? I do not understand.
O.K. Estonians 100% Western.

[Albion]

Orthodox Setu not Western. And from what the West is to be cool? I do not understand.
O.K. Estonians 100% Western.

The West isn't cool, its just idolized by Eastern Europeans as a reaction against communism and Russian influence.

[Äike]

Orthodox Setu not Western. And from what the West is to be cool? I do not understand.
O.K. Estonians 100% Western.

There are like 10 000 Setus. :D


The West isn't cool, its just idolized by Eastern Europeans as a reaction against communism and Russian influence.

The Estonians considered themselves to be Westerners even before the Soviet Union occupied us.

The thing is, some people who aren't quite bright, label as some Eastern-European Balto-Slavs who write in Cyrillic, while the reality is completely different. Thus we have to point that we are Westerners. There's nothing cool about it nor is it idolizing.

[Peerkons]

The thing is, some people who aren't quite bright, label as some Eastern-European Balto-Slavs who write in Cyrillic, while the reality is completely different. Thus we have to point that we are Westerners. There's nothing cool about it nor is it idolizing.

Do you really have to emphasize this Balto-Slavic thing?
I don't call u Uralo-Finn living in your yurtas and breeding reindeers.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Whatever. I'd like to see what Swedes say too though.

Swedes have no say in this. They were Estonians who spoke Swedish. And their origins were in coastal Finland.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Do you really have to emphasize this Balto-Slavic thing?
I don't call u Uralo-Finn living in your yurtas and breeding reindeers.

It's spring now. We've left the yurts for the season, dickhead.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Try these two Wiki articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_Swedish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish-speaking_Finns#History

Both articles have been raped by notorious PTG... (See discussion page):cool:

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Yes, as I said, you are at least nominally Western European, as you your ancestors were converted to Western Christianity.
So were the Scandinavians ancestors. What's your point? Christianity is not the determing factor here. (Norse/Finnic and Baltic) peoples had great similarities in their cultures 1000 years prior to Christianity.


I amend my initial point: your ancestors were first converted to Western Christianity by Germans/Danes, then began converting to Protestantism under Germans, before fully converting to Protestantism under Swedes. As far as we know Orthodox christianity arrived here first. In the eyes of Catholics, Orthodox were pagans and infidels and began to convert people to Catholism. Protestantism is an adaption of Catholic christianity to values which were easier for northern Europeans to understand.