Race and Physical Activity

[Loki]

I'm going to return the favour of my friend Todesengel on some other internet location, by re-posting an existing forum thread. ;) I find this interesting.

Race and Physical Activity (http://racehist.blogspot.com/2009/07/race-and-physical-activity.html)



Guy White asserts blacks are "physically superior", his proof being:


Their physical ability is obvious when looking at the physique of the average black and white man. Look at all those black men whose bodies look like Greek gods without spending any time in the gym. You can’t argue that they commit more crime due to higher testosterone without admitting that testosterone also makes them stronger.

I was going to reply at Guy White's blog around the time he first posted this, but I must have been overwhelmed by the sheer number of bizarre assumptions underlying the comment and never completed a response.

For the moment, I'll just point out that more black than white young men in the U.S. report engaging in weight-lifting (44.5% vs. 30.7%) and calisthenics (41.9% vs. 28.9%) [1]. How Guy White came to the opposite conclusion, I have no idea. Perhaps he was applying his brand of "logic" and generalizing from something like Herschel Walker's infamous claim of having never lifted weights.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mlcDtA_ehB8/SmoAiXs3iOI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/BWZ8hZTuQ1Y/s1600-h/activity.png

[1] Dowda et al. Correlates of physical activity among U.S. Young adults, 18 to 30 years of age, from NHANES III. Annals of Behavioral Medicine Volume 26, Number 1 / August, 2003


The member "Torch_Bearer" then makes an interesting observation:




In terms of fast-twitch muscle fibers and the physical advantages that come with them, on average blacks (at least those of the west African variety who comprise most of the black population in the U.S.) are indeed superior to whites.

Fast-twitch fibers are much larger than the slow-twitch kind (also, the muscle fibers undergo hypertrophy as a result of weight lifting are primarily fast-twitch). Consequently, blacks very often look far more muscular and athletic than whites. East Africans, however, are more slow-twitch oriented than their west African counterparts.

I've known blacks who do nothing but sit around getting drunk, smoking weed, and eating fast food, yet they still had toned, muscular bodies like gymnasts.

But us whites make up for our slower moving bodies by having sharper minds. Former basketball star Larry Byrd (a white guy) was one of the slowest players out there, but still one of the greatest players to ever take to the court because of his mind. Also, the quarterback position in American Football (which is somewhat analogous to a field general position) has been clearly demonstrated to be best left in the hands of white men.


And:




To put it bluntly, blacks are just closer to apes than us, which is where they get their advantage in strength and speed. Just look at how strong chimps and gorillas are.

Also, I forget to mention that negroes tend to put on less subcutaneous fat than whites, which is why the can appear quite toned and chiseled while whites often look relatively soft and flabby in comparison. Negroes tend to store their fat more inter-muscularly, and they generally have greater bone density, too.

Whatever the negroe physical talents though, if we ever decide to impose our will upon them again, they'd be at our mercy before they even knew what happened.


To which rainman replied:




Most of these statements are not true. Have you ever met black people from Africa? Even west Africa, or watch a national geographic show on some African tribe. Most of them are smaller than whites and very short, though a few are really tall and skinny. They are not well toned or anything. In America you have a good number (though numerical minority) of blacks who are very large and strong. This comes from slave breeding programs where the larger stronger negro was better. That's where you get a lot of your abnormal NFL players and such from. It really isn't common in Africa, and really among U.S. blacks its only a small minority that are like that.

[Brännvin]

This comes from slave breeding programs where the larger stronger negro was better.

Was there any eugenic program for the improvement of slaves? :confused:



That's where you get a lot of your abnormal NFL players and such from. It really isn't common in Africa, and really among U.S. blacks its only a small minority that are like that.

Use exaggerated of Anabolic steroids is high between African American athletes, I could cite countless famous cases.

[Grumpy Cat]

Aaaahhh... so much to debunk! Don't know where to start! Brain's about to EXPLODE!


You can’t argue that they commit more crime due to higher testosterone without admitting that testosterone also makes them stronger.

Black men don't have more testosterone. That is ridiculous! If they did, they would be hairier than other races and that's not the case.


In terms of fast-twitch muscle fibers and the physical advantages that come with them, on average blacks (at least those of the west African variety who comprise most of the black population in the U.S.) are indeed superior to whites.

This is simply not true. The reason why blacks in the US dominate professional sports is because sports are more popular among that community. Practice makes perfect, and blacks practice more. If blacks were truly superior to whites in athletic ability, then you would think that they would dominate all sports, but they don't dominate, say, hockey, which is more popular among whites than blacks and I can count one one hand the number of black professional hockey players.


Fast-twitch fibers are much larger than the slow-twitch kind (also, the muscle fibers undergo hypertrophy as a result of weight lifting are primarily fast-twitch). Consequently, blacks very often look far more muscular and athletic than whites. East Africans, however, are more slow-twitch oriented than their west African counterparts.

Then why do Kenyans dominate track? Kenya is in East Africa last time I checked.


To put it bluntly, blacks are just closer to apes than us, which is where they get their advantage in strength and speed. Just look at how strong chimps and gorillas are.

That is one of the most racist statements I have seen in a while. I hope he isn't serious!


n America you have a good number (though numerical minority) of blacks who are very large and strong. This comes from slave breeding programs where the larger stronger negro was better.

This theory has been debunked so many times... yet so many people believe it, including blacks themselves. Chris Rock did a skit on it even.

I could go on... but I won't. Head... hurts

[Nodens]

Was there any eugenic program for the improvement of slaves?

Usually not any intentional system, but conditions were typically harsh enough that natural selection may very well have kicked in.

[Brännvin]

Usually not any intentional system, but conditions were typically harsh enough that natural selection may very well have kicked in.

It hard to believe unless you point me to a genetic study related for.

[Gooding]

Was there any eugenic program for the improvement of slaves? :confused:

Good question.The only informal eugenics program I'm aware of was for white slave masters to improve the blood of their slaves through breeding with the slave women and killing as many of the males as they could with whatever pretext came to mind.Black Americans today are multiracial in most areas...

[Nodens]

It hard to believe unless you point me to a genetic study related for.

Given that:

1) Weaker individuals rarely survived the Transatlantic voyage.
2) The wealthiest slaveholders were likely to maintain the largest force of the healthiest individuals.
3) Field work typically favored those who were able to perform the heaviest tasks for the longest periods with the most basic nutrition.

You have many generations experiencing heavy selective pressure. I'd find it strange if said history didn't leave a mark.

[Birka]

I wrestled in high school and college. In college I wrestled against 2 black men. They had the Greek god physique, narrow waste and broad shoulders, both looking way more muscular than I. I found out that even though they looked twice as strong as me, they were not. As a matter of fact, I was stronger than the one who looked like a body builder.

I just think that they have very little fat content under their skin and it just makes them look like body builders. Looks do not make them stronger than an average looking Northern European like myself.

I have also played basketball against many black men. Again, they have that taut muscle look, but it does not make them stronger. That look is called muscle tonus, and means nothing when real strength is being measured.

[Brännvin]

Given that:

1) Weaker individuals rarely survived the Transatlantic voyage.
2) The wealthiest slaveholders were likely to maintain the largest force of the healthiest individuals.
3) Field work typically favored those who were able to perform the heaviest tasks for the longest periods with the most basic nutrition.

You have many generations experiencing heavy selective pressure. I'd find it strange if said history didn't leave a mark.


I do not believe in such theory I have never read or heard of a study reported on, to me sounds more like some kind of an American urban myth and it has been debunked.

African Americans as a group for what matter have high incidence of cardiovascular problems compared with other populations within the U.S., not to mention they are highly related to lactose intolerance where statistically make them the less healthy than other ethnic groups inside the same country.

Dragon Rouge has already identified and explained the social matter related to some sports as I already mentioned historically the use exaggerated of anabolic steroids is high between African American athletes, so many top American sprinters have been charged with doping violations in recent years that has turned routine to really believe on the superiority of them in certain sports, they are no less and no more special.

[Nodens]

I do not believe in such theory I have never read or heard of a study reported on, to me sounds more like some kind of an American urban myth and it has been debunked.

No, it's a possible line of reasoning I'm using to make the case that even though Rainman may wrong about institutionalized eugenics, there may an element of truth to the underling assumption (i.e. that African-American physiology may have been altered from native African physiology as a result of their historical situation). I never claimed that this had, without a doubt, given them a significant physical advantage over other racial groups. Indeed Birka's experience suggest this in not the case. It remains possible however, that they as a group may have some advantage over native Africans (though I'm unaware of any attempts to objectively compare the relative health of two groups).


African Americans as a group for what matter have high incidence of cardiovascular problems compared with other populations within the U.S., not to mention they are highly related to lactose intolerance where statistically make them the less healthy than other ethnic groups inside the same country.

Lactose tolerance is generally regarded as a Northern European adaptation and is therefore not an indication of population health. As to cardiovascular disease and other health problems, their European admixture has not stabilized in the population, so biochemical incompatibilities are more likely to manifest in chronic health problems of various sorts (and their metabolism may simply be ill-adapted to the average American diet).


Dragon Rouge has already identified and explained the social matter related to some sports as I already mentioned historically the use exaggerated of anabolic steroids is high between African American athletes, so many top American sprinters have been charged with doping violations in recent years that has turned routine to really believe on the superiority of them in certain sports, they are no less and no more special.

Yes, the culture is the primary reason for their over-representation in some professional sports. Steroid use in athletics is not, however, unique amongst African-Americans.

You seem to assume I've said more than I actually have.

[Jarl]

I just think that they have very little fat content under their skin and it just makes them look like body builders. Looks do not make them stronger than an average looking Northern European like myself.

That is very true. Particularly those that come from the Sudan savannah. If you look at Nilotes - they are fatless people. Ordinary men very often have their six or eight packs visible, yet they are skinny as hell, with very thin legs and arms.

[Lyfing]

Our "brothers" do seem to be naturally pretty well built. I've known some Somalians and Ethiopians, they ain't the same way.

Testosterone with them is questionable though..the black girls tell me they ain't all so well hung..??

We bred our slaves to be strong, also, to be able to sing and dance..:lightbul:

Ours all play basketball that is why they seem to be "toned"..it's a cultural thing..

I run a chainsaw and tromp around in the woods from time to time..I have a comparable physique..??

Maybe it's all the cheese I eat..??

Later,
-Lyfing

[Frigga]

Actually, it's a myth that only Northern Europeans eat dairy products, and have lactose tolerance. Milk is consumed in the Middle East, the Balkans, the Himalayas, Mongolia, India, and in Africa as well. The most prominent example of dairy loving Africans for me are the Masai in Kenya. They are a warrior tribe that is agricultural, but they only raise cattle. The warriors eat only meat, milk, and blood, and consider vegetables sissy food. They are superb examples of good pyshical development.

But, another thing to remember about dairy, is that is has been used for thousands of years, and we have only had refridgeration for barely 100, pasteurization has only been around almost 150. So, humans ate raw milk, which soured naturally in order to be preserved. The souring process ate up all of the lactose, so humans hardly ate lactose. We are seeing much more problems with lactose because it is not being digested by lactose loving bacteria, as the pasteurization process kills them. This is why yogurt and cheese and other fermented dairy products are much more easily tolerated than fresh dairy.

[Allenson]

I just think that they have very little fat content under their skin and it just makes them look like body builders. Looks do not make them stronger than an average looking Northern European like myself.

I have also played basketball against many black men. Again, they have that taut muscle look, but it does not make them stronger. That look is called muscle tonus, and means nothing when real strength is being measured.

I think you've really hit on something here, Birka. Likely as an adaptive trait to a cool/cold climate, nothern Europeans tend to have more fat stored just below the skin than do the hot climate-oriented Negroids....and thus, we can appear less "cut". But in the end, pound for pound, perhaps we are actually stronger.

Regarding athleticism and the whole 'fast-twitch' & 'slow twitch' issue--there does seem to be something to this. American football is an excellent way to view the stregths and weaknesses of both races. Not only are the best quarterbacks always Caucasoid (due to greater mental prowess), but the incredibly strong--a grinding stregth of great endurance--offensive linemen are very often big, burly, Cro-Magnon type northern Europeans. Matt Light of the Patriots is a fine example.

Nice to see that he has a little toe-headed son too: ;)

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/2008/02/01-07/new-england-patriots-super-bowl-arizona-matt-light-colin-glendale.jpg


The offensive line of the Patriots look like a bunch of marauding vikings:

http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/12/18/1198036115_0005/539w.jpg

[Loyalist]

I think you've really hit on something here, Birka. Likely as an adaptive trait to a cool/cold climate, nothern Europeans tend to have more fat stored just below the skin than do the hot climate-oriented Negroids....and thus, we can appear less "cut". But in the end, pound for pound, perhaps we are actually stronger.

Regarding athleticism and the whole 'fast-twitch' & 'slow twitch' issue--there does seem to be something to this. American football is an excellent way to view the stregths and weaknesses of both races. Not only are the best quarterbacks always Caucasoid (due to greater mental prowess), but the incredibly strong--a grinding stregth of great endurance--offensive linemen are very often big, burly, Cro-Magnon type northern Europeans. Matt Light of the Patriots is a fine example.

Nice to see that he has a little toe-headed son too: ;)

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/2008/02/01-07/new-england-patriots-super-bowl-arizona-matt-light-colin-glendale.jpg


The offensive line of the Patriots look like a bunch of marauding vikings:

http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/12/18/1198036115_0005/539w.jpg

Excellent points, and providing some more evidence is the South African football and rugby teams.

The rugby team, predominantly white and Northern European...

http://i32.tinypic.com/2cwk1w1.jpg

...and the football/soccer team, consisting almost exclusively of Negroes.

http://i32.tinypic.com/x0wtft.jpg

[Birka]

I think you've really hit on something here, Birka. Likely as an adaptive trait to a cool/cold climate, nothern Europeans tend to have more fat stored just below the skin than do the hot climate-oriented Negroids....and thus, we can appear less "cut". But in the end, pound for pound, perhaps we are actually stronger.

Regarding athleticism and the whole 'fast-twitch' & 'slow twitch' issue--there does seem to be something to this. American football is an excellent way to view the stregths and weaknesses of both races. Not only are the best quarterbacks always Caucasoid (due to greater mental prowess), but the incredibly strong--a grinding stregth of great endurance--offensive linemen are very often big, burly, Cro-Magnon type northern Europeans. Matt Light of the Patriots is a fine example.

Nice to see that he has a little toe-headed son too: ;)

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/2008/02/01-07/new-england-patriots-super-bowl-arizona-matt-light-colin-glendale.jpg


The offensive line of the Patriots look like a bunch of marauding vikings:

http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/12/18/1198036115_0005/539w.jpg

Did you ever watch the World's Strongest Man competitions. I love that stuff. It is always some northern European that wins. Its either someone named Magnuson from Norway or a Pole, Balt or an American of Germanic descent. A few blacks compete, but never win.

[Lahtari]

Black men don't have more testosterone. That is ridiculous! If they did, they would be hairier than other races and that's not the case.

I think it's a medical fact that they do. And testosterone isn't the only factor affecting hairiness. Women also have different hairiness patterns.



Fast-twitch fibers are much larger than the slow-twitch kind (also, the muscle fibers undergo hypertrophy as a result of weight lifting are primarily fast-twitch). Consequently, blacks very often look far more muscular and athletic than whites. East Africans, however, are more slow-twitch oriented than their west African counterparts.Then why do Kenyans dominate track? Kenya is in East Africa last time I checked.

Kenyans dominate long-distance running, which requires slow-twitch muscles. West-Africans with lots of fast-twitch muscles dominate short-distance running.

Furthermore, I don't believe in those environmental explanations of sports success: Today, every athlete aiming to the top has the same substances and trains like crazy. But still the basketball field and the sprint track is populated with blacks who have longer limbs and faster muscles, and the powerlifting competition is full of white freezer-refrigerators. And with ice hockey, it might not be just about speed and raw power, but also about reaction times.

[Lahtari]

Given that:

1) Weaker individuals rarely survived the Transatlantic voyage.

'Weaker' in the darwinian sense maybe, but not the ones with least muscle mass.


2) The wealthiest slaveholders were likely to maintain the largest force of the healthiest individuals.
3) Field work typically favored those who were able to perform the heaviest tasks for the longest periods with the most basic nutrition.

You have many generations experiencing heavy selective pressure. I'd find it strange if said history didn't leave a mark.

Maybe some kind of a mark, yes. But I don't see how this would be essentially different than the selective pressure in Africa.


Most of these statements are not true. Have you ever met black people from Africa? Even west Africa, or watch a national geographic show on some African tribe. Most of them are smaller than whites and very short, though a few are really tall and skinny. They are not well toned or anything. In America you have a good number (though numerical minority) of blacks who are very large and strong. This comes from slave breeding programs where the larger stronger negro was better. That's where you get a lot of your abnormal NFL players and such from. It really isn't common in Africa, and really among U.S. blacks its only a small minority that are like that.

Just one word: cheeseburgers. :D

If you could look into a poor European village before industrialized food production, you'd see exactly the same - short and skinny people.

[Nodens]

'Weaker' in the darwinian sense maybe, but not the ones with least muscle mass.

I was thinking in terms of endurance/resilience.


Maybe some kind of a mark, yes. But I don't see how this would be essentially different than the selective pressure in Africa.

Significantly harsher conditions, but yes, still essentially the pressures of an agrarian lifestyle.

As to the lactose issue, some interesting data on the Maasai:


"it is basically the strongest signal of selection ever observed in any genome, in any study, in any population in the world."...

...In addition, Tishkoff's team determined the date range when the mutation likely occurred: 3,000 to 7,000 years ago, which matches up well with the archaeological record that places pastoralization coming to East Africa about 5,000 years ago. The European trait dates back about 9,000 years.

Source: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=african-adaptation-to-dig&sc=I100322

And of course:


Prevalence of Primary Lactase Deficiency in Various Ethnic Groups
Northern Europeans 2%-15%
American Whites 6%-22%
Central Europeans 9%-23%
Indians (Indian subcontinent)
Northern 20%-30%
Southern 60%-70%
Hispanics 50%-80%
Ashkenazi Jews 60%-80%
Blacks 60%-80%
American Indians 80%-100%
Asians 95%-100%

Source: http://www.aafp.org/afp/20020501/1845.html

[Poltergeist]

No, the blacks are not "athletically superior". It is one more myth, believed even by many "white racialists", deplorably. These "racialists" opine along these lines: "They (the Africans, that is) have more muscles, but we (the whites) have more brain. Brain is ultimately much more important for the creation of civilization." This kind of thinking is derived from genetic detrminism.

The truth of the matter is that the above-the-average athletic performance of Afro-Americans in America is due to the popularity of sports in their communities, which has maybe its origin, among other cause, in the mediatic peddling of the images of successful black athletes who then become role models for much of the youth and thus among many black youngsters parcting some sport there arise into prominence talents, by selection. Those talents would probably go unnoticed and wouldn't fulfil themselves athletically, were the sports not so popular in the black community.

[Tabiti]

Blacks are different. There are short blacks, high blacks, "black" blacks, "chocolate" blacks, ectomorphs, mesomorphs, endomorphs, lazy blacks and athletic blacks.

[Inese]

Blacks are different. There are short blacks, high blacks, "black" blacks, "chocolate" blacks, ectomorphs, mesomorphs, endomorphs, lazy blacks and athletic blacks.
Hm yes and all of them dont belong to us.