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Corvus
12-23-2012, 12:57 PM
The Carinthian Plebiscite (German: Kärntner Volksabstimmung, Slovene: Koroški plebiscit) was held on 10 October 1920 in the area predominantly settled by Carinthian Slovenes. It determined the final southern border between the Republic of Austria and the newly formed Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (later Yugoslavia) after World War I

After the defeat of the multi-ethnic Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and the ruling Habsburg dynasty in World War I, new states arose in its former territory. Among these there was an internationally unrecognized State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, which was created in the final days of the war according to the 1917 Corfu Declaration, and merged with the Kingdom of Serbia to form the new South Slavic Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes on December 1, 1918.

Determination of borders between the new countries was complex and difficult, and not always peaceful: While the northeastern border with the Kingdom of Italy along the "Julian March" was already determined by the 1915 Treaty of London, the demarcation line between Yugoslavia and the rump state of German-Austria was a difficult and highly disputed matter. The principle of self-determination, championed by U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, was taken up by both Slovenes and German–Austrians in the Carinthian, Styrian and Carniolan lands of the defunct Habsburg empire. The rising tensions culminated in clashes of arms, as on Marburg's Bloody Sunday in Lower Styria and the continued fighting of paramilitary groups in southeastern Carinthia.

In particular the "Carinthian question" had become an issue in the closing days of World War I, when events developed rapidly, beginning with territorial claims by the Slovenian National Assembly on October 17, 1918. These claims were rejected by the Carinthian provisional Landtag assembly on 25 October 1918, declaring the state's accession to German-Austria. From November 5, Yugoslav forces moved into the settlement area of the Carinthian Slovenes from the Karavanke mountain range down to the Drava River and beyond. The Landtag assembly fled from Klagenfurt to the northwestern town of Spittal an der Drau and on 11 November officially demanded self-determination, which in this case amounted to demanding a plebiscite for a region with a mixed population.

With the occupation of southeastern Carinthia by Yugoslav troops, the confrontation evolved into armed clashes. The provisional Carinthian government under Governor Arthur Lemisch decided to lead off the armed struggle in order to preserve the southern Carinthian border on the Karavanke range. Bitter fighting of paramilitary groups around Arnoldstein and Ferlach alarmed the Entente powers. They arbitrated a ceasefire, whereafter a nine-day U.S. Army commission under Lt.Col. Sherman Miles scouted the disputed region between river and mountains in January and February 1919 and made the crucial recommendation that the Karavanke frontier should be retained, thus opening the possibility of a plebiscite. Yugoslav representatives urged for a border on the Drava; American delegates however spoke in favor of preserving the unity of the Klagenfurt Basin and convinced the British and French delegations. Until May 7, all occupied Carinthian territories were vacated. When Yugoslav forces under General Rudolf Maister made an attempt to re-enter the region on 28 May 1919, they were forced to withdraw by the Entente authorities.

The question was whether the considerable Slovene-speaking majority in the state's southeastern region, adjoining the Karavanke range, would carry the vote for union with Austria or whether that majority wished to join a newly created South Slavic state. This was to a large extent a consequence of rising romantic nationalism under the Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy and the idea of an autonomy of the "Slovene lands", referring to the early medieval Slavic principality of Carantania, which had perished in the ninth century. A common state with other southern Slavic peoples seemed the most acceptable compromise toward fulfillment of nationalist strivings.

The Treaty of Saint-Germain with the Republic of Austria, signed on 10 September 1919, should have determined the Austrian-Yugoslav border. It ascertained that some small parts of Carinthia—i.e. the Meža Valley (German: Mießtal) with the town of Dravograd (Unterdrauburg) and the Jezersko (Seeland) municipal area—should be incorporated into the new Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, while the fate of wider southeastern Carinthia area down to the Klagenfurt basin was to be determined by a plebiscite.

Wanting to resolve the conflict peacefully, the Allied victors in World War I divided southeastern Carinthia into two zones, "A" in the south and "B" in the north. A two-stage referendum was to be held to determine annexation by either Austria or the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, in the smaller Zone B only if a majority of the people in Zone A would have voted for Yugoslavia. The population of Zone A was predominantly Slovene-speaking: according to the pre-war Austrian census of 1910, people in these municipalities who used Slovene as their primary language represented nearly 70% of the population; while the number of ethnic Slovenes was probably higher. German speakers were concentrated in the town of Völkermarkt and certain smaller localities, especially around Bleiburg (Slovene: Pliberk) and Ferlach (Borovlje).

Before the plebiscite, both sides waged intensive propaganda campaigns. Austrian propaganda emphasized the economic benefits of maintaining the unity of the Klagenfurt Basin and appealed to feelings of Carinthian unity and brotherhood between the Slovene- and German-speaking peoples of Carinthia. Conducted in the Slovene Carinthian dialect, Austrian propaganda promised that the Slovene language and national identity would be treated as equal to the German in Austria, officially confirmed by the Carinthia Landtag assembly two weeks before the plebisicite was held. It nevertheless also had an anti-Yugoslav tendency, picturing the conditions in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes as chaotic. Yugoslav propaganda almost exclusively used arguments emphasizing Slovene national awareness. It took an aggressive anti-German view from the beginning and turned to economic issues only in the last few weeks before the plebiscite. The campaigners were not capable of using the political instability of the young Austrian republic and its then unenviable position in the international community for advantage.

Despite the six-months term determined by the Treaty of Saint-Germain, the referendum was not held in Zone A until October 10, 1920. In addition to changing the date of the plebiscite, other terms of the Treaty of Saint-Germain allegedly were ignored or changed: an Austrian representative was accepted into the commission, and the plebiscite commission changed rules by not allowing the Yugoslav military to control the border between Zones A and B on 8 June 1920. Instead the Yugoslav army had to withdraw from Zone A in accord with the decision of the plebiscite commission on 18 September 1920. Changes may also have been made in electoral registers which allowed people from northern Zone B voting in Zone A, backing the Austrian side. In the following decades both sides would continue to interprete and instrumentalize the plebiscite's circumstances in their own way.

The outcome of the plebiscite held on 10 October, was 22,025 votes (59.1% of the total cast) in favor of adhesion to Austria and 15,279 (40.9%) in favor of annexation by the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes. Assumed that the whole German-speaking minority had voted for Austria, also every second Carinthian Slovene had decided to remain with the Republic. While a majority in the remote Alpine villages on the slopes of the Karavanke range voted for Yugoslavia, the inhabitants of the densely settled Klagenfurt Basin were motivated by their evolved social and cultural, not least economic ties to the central Carinthian region.

The plebiscite ultimatively determined the border between Austria and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes. The border remained unchanged after World War II, even as the Kingdom of Yugoslavia gave way to Josip Broz Tito's Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, though at the end of the war Yugoslav Partisans again briefly occupied the area, including the capital city of Klagenfurt. Since the disintegration of Yugoslavia, the border has separated Austria and Slovenia.

Corvus
12-23-2012, 01:01 PM
For Austria voted in Zone A

Pustritz 96,8 %
Lavamünd 92,9%
Völkermarkt 83,4 %
Tainach 85,9 %
Bleiburg 75,3 %
Ferlach 72,5 %
Eisenkappel 67,8 %
Köttmansdorf 62,3 %
Eberndorf 61,1 %
Sankt Kanzian 54,6 %
Globasnitz 46,2 %
St. Jakob im Rosental 46,2%
Feistritz im Rosental 45,0 %
Schwabegg 25,0 %
Vellach 21,4 %
Ludmannsdorf 20,6 %
Windisch Bleiberg 20,5 %
Zell Pfarre 3,2 %

Corvus
12-23-2012, 01:09 PM
Some propaganda posters:

Austrian:

http://www.l-kaernten.at/bilder/Bleibt_Kaernten_treu.jpg

http://www.onb.ac.at/siteseeing/flu/oe-in-plakaten/images/ktnla.jpg

http://static1.kleinezeitung.at/system/galleries_520x335/upload/5/2/5/2493781/landesmuseum7262509.jpg

http://media05.regionaut.meinbezirk.at/2010/09/21/2520703_web.jpg?1285052664

Yugoslavian:

http://www.maribor-graz.eu/images/1920_lhm_plebiscit_ukm.jpg

http://www.nuk.uni-lj.si/pictures/2010/plebiscit_v.jpg

Corvus
12-23-2012, 02:01 PM
http://www.burschenschaftliche-blaetter.de/typo3temp/pics/b9acdedcc6.jpg

http://olga.pixelpoint.at/media/PPM_3DAK_volkskultur/SYSTEM_BOX_normal1/11338.jpg

http://www.ak-ansichtskarten.de/shop/ak/34/3486022/AK-Volksabstimmung-in-Kaernten-1920-Wappen.jpg

Peyrol
12-23-2012, 02:03 PM
Has this area still slovenian majority?

Corvus
12-23-2012, 02:06 PM
Has this area still slovenian majority?

Yes it has, but the vast majority identify themselves as German-Austrians.
Slovenian as a primary language is only spoken in some remote villages.

noricum
12-30-2012, 10:41 PM
Yes it has, but the vast majority identify themselves as German-Austrians.

How can someone be Slovenian, who doesn't know the language nor identifies as such?

Corvus
12-31-2012, 09:33 AM
How can someone be Slovenian, who doesn't know the language nor identifies as such?

I don`t know exactly what you mean, but that`s not possible I think

Geminus
12-31-2012, 09:41 AM
I don`t know exactly what you mean, but that`s not possible I think

Perduellio asked if it has a Slovenian majority, but as far as I know it only has a Slovenian minority

Corvus
12-31-2012, 09:45 AM
Perduellio asked if it has a Slovenian majority, but as far as I know it only has a Slovenian minority

The part of Carinthia were the Plebiscite took place had a Slovenian majority in 1920, but now due to the assimilation process thats no longer the case.

Still they have Slovenian names and some even speak Slovenian fluently so thats all a question of perspective.
What is German. What is Slovenian. It is not always so easy to draw a dermarcation line.

Žołnir
01-02-2013, 08:02 PM
Carinthia suffers from Vindišar phenomenom. Slovene folk who denies Slovene or Slavic identity for that matter despite the fact they speak Slovene. Some of them think their "Windisch" is some kind of Germanic language becouse of some old Germanic words but really all Slovene redneck dialects have these words.

But whomever in Carinthia is greatest Slowener hater usually has most Slowene-Tschuschen surname himself. I blame it on geogrpahy and imense pressure from extreme nationalist German populace. Nič več porednih pavrov v Korutane.... :picard1: :(

So yeah brainiacs like this do exist en masse. Koroška heute svieta Neimška land. :picard1: :picard1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VZqltxjwps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RMfcMWycu4

Vindišars on the march; Sad especially about Gailtalers who have most archaic Slovene dialect. :icon_rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn2HUXwiEOE

noricum
01-02-2013, 09:11 PM
But whomever in Carinthia is greatest Slowener hater usually has most Slowene-Tschuschen surname himself.

True, but he same goes for many Slovene nationalists names. Einspieler, Rauch, Dr. Kaisersberger, Fischer, Lippold, Mayer, Sittig, Plapper, Rossmann, Blachmann, Sprachmann, Schuster, Rosenstein, Kramer to name a few leading Slovene nationalists from the early 20th century.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VZqltxjwps

Would you tell me how much does one who speaks only Standard Slovene understand of the Windisch in the video?

Žołnir
01-02-2013, 09:52 PM
True, but he same goes for many Slovene nationalists names. Einspieler, Rauch, Dr. Kaisersberger, Fischer, Lippold, Mayer, Sittig, Plapper, Rossmann, Blachmann, Sprachmann, Schuster, Rosenstein, Kramer to name a few leading Slovene nationalists from the early 20th century.


Yes this is true. For example in Gailtal biggest Slovene patriots have surname Druml. :) Overal i don't mind people with Slovene surnames identifying as Germans. I also don't mind if Carinthia would stay Austrian as long as Slovene minority would stay healthy and not hated and assmilated by some (not all) neibourghs but i am sad this minority has collapsed so much. No doub blame is on both sides since Carinthian Slovenes didn't prove to be resiliant and daring enough. :(



True, but he same goes for many Slovene
Would you tell me how much does one who speaks only Standard Slovene understand of the Windisch in the video?

He could understand quite much probably however honestly Slovene dialects are extreamly diverse so yeah there might be obsticles for standard speakers which i can't spot since my Oberkrainer dialect is fairly similar to Carinthian but there are still some differences which otherwise don't neccesarly mean we can't understand general talking.

I am sad about Carinthian especially becouse it sounds great to me. At least the way old folk spoke. Nowdays there is clear German influence on Carinthian Slovene accent. Something that older people didn't have at least as far as from old video clip is noticeble. There were German words but not accent. Which is indicator most ppl speak German in daily life now.

Dialectical map;

http://www2.arnes.si/~gljsentvid10/oseb_stran/fran_ramovs_karta_1957_slo_nar.jpg.gif

noricum
01-02-2013, 10:42 PM
The main problem is that ethnic boarders are not like they may appear on a map, but rather like airbrushed-a continuum with a huge overlap reaching deep in both of our contries. Thus a "fair" boarder could never be installed. Not only Slovenes suffered during the last century, but also ethnic germans in todays Slovenia, one also must not forgett that.

My paternal great-grandmother worked as a waitress in Unterdrauburg/Dravograd (then Carinthia, now Slovenia) during the last years of the A-H monarchy and had quite a few illegitimate children. Having my DNA test results in mind, it is very likely my paternal great-grandfather was Slovene too. Because of the fact she didn't ever marry, all the children had her german lastname. So I've learned that just about a week ago.:)

Thanks for answering my question about the Slov. language. On a funny sidenote, not only the most archaic Slov. dialects can be found in Carinthia, but also the most archaic Bajuvarian dialects.

Žołnir
01-02-2013, 11:17 PM
Well yeah there were German islands ofc most important Kočevarji. As for Carinthia most important German island was in modern Trevisio altho there were some others too. In towns ppl were often mixed often with German majority. Like Dravograd you mentioned for example. The rurals were majority Slovene.
I admit this map is extragerating and not entirealy correct on north border in Worthersee and there are few more German islands but in it's broader sense it is more or less correct. However in precise manner i think it is important to note there are different degrees in different times. For example there are two German colonisations, i think, first one medieval ethnically un-planed, non-nationalistic in modern sense and second in beginning of 19th century with rise of modern nationalist ideas in Europe.

http://www.ff.uni-lj.si/slovjez/mh/province.jpg


Btw one interesting note. There was some German protestant traveler who documented Carinthia around 1800 it's interesting how he notes that in Klagenfurt folk mostly spoke Italian but could also speak German and/or Slovene. At least in this way he tries to present. I mean this dosent mean they were Italians but Italian was land of trade and culture back then. Similar records i found for Lublana (LJ).

When i find source again ill report in detail.

Sigurd
01-06-2013, 11:19 PM
How can someone be Slovenian, who doesn't know the language nor identifies as such?

In May, I was in Rückersdorf work-wise for several hours on five consecutive days, and had the opportunity to speak to an elderly Slovene farmer. He mentioned that whilst less than 20% of the village spoke Slovenian these days, that they had all spoken Slovenian when he went to school. A lot of other, younger people were notable because they had only ever grown up with German, but they were still accustomed with old Slovene cuisine and that special type of Schnapps, they brew, Luše.

Where we were quartered at Seelach, part of St. Kanzian, which less than 10% Slovene, I also spoke about the topic to our host. He mentioned that he was from a German family but that essentially even in his day (he was in his early forties), both languages had to be known by the kids, as they'd go into the same school, and it was fairly evenly spread out.

He also mentioned the problem of some Carinthian Slovenes having worked in high positions for the Austrian state but then going back to pretend they knew no German. Finally he mentioned that there were a bunch of families who tried to make the cut in all occasions by continually changing names from let's say Eicher to Dobnik and then back to Eicher --- and vice-versa --- around the 1920 bracket.

Basically, most of the Slovenian-speaking population these days (and where both experiences listed above were made) is in the wider Völkermarkt district, already in the (exaggerated) map to be mentioned to be most likely Slovene. In most villages near the boundary there is a 10-15% minority. There is currently only one Slovene mayor, in Bad Eisenkappel, but even he speaks fluent German and he and his brothers have a choir which recite both German and Slovene folk songs.


The main problem is that ethnic boarders are not like they may appear on a map, but rather like airbrushed-a continuum with a huge overlap reaching deep in both of our contries.

Originally yes, but that is not restricted to the border between Slovenia & Carinthian, that happens at the "Inner-Styrian" border, too. You will find your 'Wratschko' and 'Mahorko' in the Austrian part and your 'Valdhuber' in the Slovenian part, so there was a continuum with overlap once upon time there too. ;)

Žołnir
01-07-2013, 06:43 PM
Well my map i gave is only extragerated in north of Wörthersee not as a whole Most northern area was Djex area. In Villach up to Köstenberg area and north of Wörthersee Krumpendorf and Pörtschach had Slovenes. In Gailtal up to Hermagor. On average area in Slovene colors most had around cca +/- 90% Slovene folk while some towns were around 10%-20% according to 1880 census but it was slowly lowering every year.



In May, I was in Rückersdorf work-wise for several A lot of other, younger people were notable because they had only ever grown up with German, but they were still accustomed with old Slovene cuisine and that special type of Schnapps, they brew, Luše.


Yes this is sad story. :(

Corvus
01-07-2013, 06:51 PM
Well my map i gave is only extragerated in north of Wörthersee not as a whole Most northern area was Djex area. In Villach up to Köstenberg area and north of Wörthersee Krumpendorf and Pörtschach had Slovenes. In Gailtal up to Hermagor. On average area in Slovene colors most had around cca +/- 90% Slovene folk while some towns were around 10%-20% according to 1880 census but it was slowly lowering every year.




Yes this is sad story. :(

Villach is originally a town with a certain Slovenian influx
It also has a Slovenian name Beljak. But apart from Slovenian surnames or
Germanised Slavic names which you can find in abundance you notice almost nothing anymore.

Žołnir
01-07-2013, 07:05 PM
Villach is originally a town with a certain Slovenian influx
It also has a Slovenian name Beljak. But apart from Slovenian surnames or
Germanised Slavic names which you can find in abundance you notice almost nothing anymore.

Ofc. Villach has Slav past since Slavs established themself here in migration era but overal i don't consider Villach part of Slovene area. Its a fact towns in Inner Austria were multicultural in middle ages and overal most medieval societies were not "monoethnic" and by end of 19th century Villach was wholly Germanic in all manners apart for some ofc. But villages south of Villach were Slovene historically nowdays mostly not. For example village of Hart or Ločilo in Slovene and Vočilo in dialect used to be Slovene majority now only 1 family.

Alenka
01-07-2013, 07:09 PM
:laugh:
http://oi50.tinypic.com/2ldaadt.jpg

Corvus
01-07-2013, 07:15 PM
:laugh:
http://oi50.tinypic.com/2ldaadt.jpg

LOL, well there are plenty of Slavic towns, mountain and river names even in Styria and the rest of Austria. Even Graz has Slavic origins.

noricum
01-07-2013, 07:30 PM
Yep, exactly. Here is a map of towns with names of Slavic origin in Austria.

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/slawische_ortsnamen_zps126b238a.jpg

Corvus
01-07-2013, 07:35 PM
Yep, exactly. Here is a map of towns with names of Slavic origin in Austria.

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/slawische_ortsnamen_zps126b238a.jpg

Thats a good map and it confirms what I always thought.
Carinthia, Styria, Eastern Tyrol and Lower Austria to a less degree have a distincitve Slavic heritage,
while Salzburg and Upper Austria have close to none.

Žołnir
01-07-2013, 07:42 PM
It corresponds to contemporary sources of Slavic settlement also. :) And yeah Slovenjach is legendary. :)

Sigurd
01-08-2013, 07:52 PM
Carinthia, Styria, Eastern Tyrol and Lower Austria to a less degree have a distincitve Slavic heritage,

Linguistically interesting is also the Kals valley in Eastern Tyrol, where you have Germanic, Romance and Slavic toponyms right next to each other throughout pretty much the entire valley.

Within Eastern Tyrol, there are no Slavic toponyms or oikonyms west of the Lienzer Klause, strangely enough this is also a pretty much strict boundary between R1a and R1b haplotypes. Further up the Isel river it's of course different, Matrei wasn't called Windischmatrei for centuries without reason.

Overall, we still must bear in mind though, that the existence of such toponyms and oikonyms simply means that there is some heritage and history in that area, but says little to nothing about the direct ancestry of today's population. It simply means that the first group of people gave the name to the settlement, and that they were still there when the next group came.

The exact levels of intermixture and/or assimilation resp. Germanisation of other groups cannot be ascertained. The archaic state of German dialects in the area shows that it's been settled by Germans at least alongside some remaining Slavs for a long while, so it's not just "Slavs who chose to speak German".

Surnames are also not an exact pointer, sometimes German names were translated into Slovenian in their villages, and vice-versa, so it can only be a hint, but never be a definitive clue. Should perhaps dig out one of the studies by Pohl, who did a relatively neutral but in-depth study about the degrees of Slavicity, also in much detail. :)


while Salzburg and Upper Austria have close to none.

North or South Tyrol have none whatsoever, also. In fact, North Tyrol is even special in another regard, in that even those Celtic names that exist (which are few and far between) lack the some onymic elements typical of Celtic naming, such as -dunon, etc. (-enna is productive, however) ;)

Žołnir
01-08-2013, 08:21 PM
Linguistically interesting is also the Kals valley in Eastern Tyrol, where you have Germanic, Romance and Slavic toponyms right next to each other throughout pretty much the entire valley.

Within Eastern Tyrol, there are no Slavic toponyms or oikonyms west of the Lienzer Klause, strangely enough this is also a pretty much strict boundary between R1a and R1b haplotypes. Further up the Isel river it's of course different, Matrei wasn't called Windischmatrei for centuries without reason.

Overall, we still must bear in mind though, that the existence of such toponyms and oikonyms simply means that there is some heritage and history in that area, but says little to nothing about the direct ancestry of today's population. It simply means that the first group of people gave the name to the settlement, and that they were still there when the next group came.

The exact levels of intermixture and/or assimilation resp. Germanisation of other groups cannot be ascertained. The archaic state of German dialects in the area shows that it's been settled by Germans at least alongside some remaining Slavs for a long while, so it's not just "Slavs who chose to speak German".
;)

Becouse before 19th century we can't consider Germanisation as something planed or forceful. What bassically happened is they settled Germanics along Slavics but since area was poorly populated German settlers were bigger in numbers and everything was settled in mixed patterns so over time they naturally assimilated Slavs.

In Slovenia things usually happened vice versa. So Germanic coloni in Škofja Loka possesions were gradually Slavicised. Some villages were speaking kind of mutt Germano-Slavic language up to 17th century. Valvasor even gives us one short sentence to present the nature of this tounge; Nim du mreža, ich die puša, wermer tiča fangen.



Linguistically interesting is also the Kals valley in
Surnames are also not an exact pointer, sometimes German names were translated into Slovenian in their villages, and vice-versa, so it can only be a hint, but never be a definitive clue. Should perhaps dig out one of the studies by Pohl, who did a relatively neutral but in-depth study about the degrees of Slavicity, also in much detail. :)
;)

This is definetly true.

Permafrost
02-27-2013, 10:32 AM
http://i55.tinypic.com/2rm4c3n.jpg

:D

Corvus
02-27-2013, 01:01 PM
http://i55.tinypic.com/2rm4c3n.jpg

:D

I understand huge parts of the Slovenian version, although I have never learned Slovene :D

Žołnir
02-27-2013, 01:07 PM
Zell/Sele municipality has biggest Slovene majority but it is also most redneck area in Karavanken alps. :D There are couple of municipalities with majority as well but this is now small area.

Corvus
02-27-2013, 01:08 PM
Zell/Sele municipality has biggest Slovene majority but it is also most redneck area in Karavanken alps. :D There are couple of municipalities with majority as well but this is now small area.

I know, this is also the most southern village of Austria btw.

Žołnir
02-27-2013, 01:12 PM
I know, this is also the most southern village of Austria btw.

I didn't knew that. :D Yeah its pretty southern and really rural i mean when i look at google earth its just mountains same impresion when i see pictures. ;)


29051

Corvus
02-27-2013, 01:16 PM
I didn't knew that. :D Yeah its pretty southern and really rural i mean when i look at google earth its just mountains same impresion when i see pictures. ;)


29051

Wow look at this, isn`t this a nice place to live. Surrounded by this panorama.
As you can see this village is really isolated, thats propably the main reason why the Slovenian language is better
preserved than in other valleys

Žołnir
02-27-2013, 01:18 PM
Wow look at this, isn`t this a nice place to live. Surrounded by this panorama.
As you can see this village is really isolated, thats propably the main reason why the Slovenian language is better
preserved than in other valleys

Yeah its definetly beautiful i would live there if i could. :D I guess if i would move out to Austria i could most easly intergrate into society there. :D :D

Jarl
02-27-2013, 01:20 PM
Carinthia suffers from Vindišar phenomenom. Slovene folk who denies Slovene or Slavic identity for that matter despite the fact they speak Slovene. Some of them think their "Windisch" is some kind of Germanic language becouse of some old Germanic words but really all Slovene redneck dialects have these words.

But whomever in Carinthia is greatest Slowener hater usually has most Slowene-Tschuschen surname himself. I blame it on geogrpahy and imense pressure from extreme nationalist German populace. Nič več porednih pavrov v Korutane.... :picard1: :(

So yeah brainiacs like this do exist en masse. Koroška heute svieta Neimška land. :picard1: :picard1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VZqltxjwps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RMfcMWycu4

Vindišars on the march; Sad especially about Gailtalers who have most archaic Slovene dialect. :icon_rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn2HUXwiEOE





This is almost as if I was reading about East Prussia or Silesia! Some of the most frantic Slav-haters born there actually bear Polish surnames.

Corvus
02-27-2013, 01:20 PM
Yeah its definetly beautiful i would live there if i could. :D I guess if i would move out to Austria i could most easly intergrate into society there. :D :D

I am sure you could, the mentality is pretty much the same, but also in any other less Slovenian locations of Cartinthia. Cultural differences between Austrians and Slavic neighbour countries are in general overrated

Žołnir
02-27-2013, 04:13 PM
I am sure you could, the mentality is pretty much the same, but also in any other less Slovenian locations of Cartinthia. Cultural differences between Austrians and Slavic neighbour countries are in general overrated

Yes i agree. Overal i didn't feel very aliened in Bavaria either. ;) I would say mentality is pretty common. Maybe here we are a bit more agressive in nature. Altho i am not 100% sure. I could be wrong.



This is almost as if I was reading about East Prussia or Silesia! Some of the most frantic Slav-haters born there actually bear Polish surnames.

Hehe yeah bout East Prussia, i bet you mean those Masuren folk? Anyways yeah i saw there is alot of self-haters sadly even in our own country. Which is even worse. :picard1:

noricum
04-01-2013, 11:25 AM
Wow look at this, isn`t this a nice place to live. Surrounded by this panorama.

Well, I used to go to school in neighbouring Ferlach/Borovlje for five years and inviteable made some contacts with the so called "Zellaner". Generally they are seen as very solitary and peculiar bunch of people who tend to eyeball every stranger in their village with great distrust and stop talking once you enter the restaurant. (There is only one, as far as I remember.) Due to the river Drau/Drava nearby the entire area is extremely foggy during the winter months, and everybody is doomed to fall into a deep depression.
Not a place I would like to live at.

Albion
04-10-2013, 02:02 PM
Yep, exactly. Here is a map of towns with names of Slavic origin in Austria.

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/slawische_ortsnamen_zps126b238a.jpg

It's a shame there isn't a map of Slovenia showing Germanic village names.

Corvus
04-12-2013, 09:19 AM
It's a shame there isn't a map of Slovenia showing Germanic village names.

There are hardly any. There is only a part of Untersteirmark =Štajerska and surprisinly a part in the South called
Gottschee=Kočevje where Germans used to live. But only in small numbers.

noricum
06-23-2013, 09:51 PM
It's a shame there isn't a map of Slovenia showing Germanic village names.

There is at least a list on wikipedia:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_deutscher_Bezeichnungen_slowenischer_Orte

Permafrost
06-25-2013, 05:32 PM
It's a shame there isn't a map of Slovenia showing Germanic village names.

You mean the Germanic version of village name, or village names which have a Germanic origin?

Because the latter simply don't exist. Slavs were here first, and Celts even before that.

Albion
07-04-2013, 09:03 PM
You mean the Germanic version of village name, or village names which have a Germanic origin?

Because the latter simply don't exist. Slavs were here first, and Celts even before that.

Ones which have a Germanic origin. Slavs may have been there first, that is not to say that Germans encroaching into Slovenia didn't start their own settlements though.