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Turkophagos
12-26-2012, 10:03 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6c/Omer_asan.jpg/449px-Omer_asan.jpg

Pontos Kültürü or Pontos Culture is a 1996 book by Turkish author Ömer Asan about the Greek Muslims of Trabzon Province.

Pontos Kültürü documents Asan's ethnographic fieldwork in his native village Çoruk (Τσορούκ, official name "Erenköy") in Of district. It contains a rich collection of oral traditions, local legends (such as Ancomah), and documentation of elements of material culture in Çoruk and its vicinity. The book is also a study of Pontic in its Of dialect. As the author asserts in its foreword, "the book does not reach the Pontos Culture but approaches it." In its entirety, the book is also a polemical text against the mainstream nationalist currents of folklore and historiography that are dominant in Turkey.

In January 2002, following a programme televised on the Turkish TV ATV, the book became the centre of controversy. Asan, accused for treason by nationalistic circles, was threatened by supporters of MHP. The book was banned the same month due to a verdict by the State Security Court in Istanbul. Asan was charged with violating the Anti-Terrorism Law by "propagandating separatism". The author, the book, and the publisher were eventually acquitted in 2003.





'I began the search for my identity because the language my ancestors spoke was not Turkish'

One of the most important books published in Greece last year was Omer Asan's "The Civilization of the Pontos" (Kyriakidis Publishers, Thessaloniki). Now Greeks have the opportunity to read this book, first published as "Pontos Kulturu," in 1996 in Istanbul, by Belge. A second edition is in press. Omer Asan, an economist, comes from Of, in Trebizond, northeastern Turkey, an area with a strong Islamic tradition and a substantial Greek-speaking population. In addition to the Of version of the Pontian dialect, Asan speaks Modern Greek fluently. The writer was involved in the Left and was prosecuted for it during the 1980s. His father, a member of the Turkish Communist Party, was imprisoned after the military coups of 1971 and 1981. Omer Asan belongs to the post-dictatorship generation. He came to Greece last year for the launching of the Greek edition of his book, and this interview was conducted during his visit.

Are there Greek speakers in Turkey today who speak the Pontian dialect?

There are still people in Turkey today who speak and understand Pontian, which is the oldest surviving Greek dialect. The members of this community come from Trebizond and are scattered throughout Turkey, or have emigrated to other countries. Pontian is spoken in 60 villages in the Trebizond region, most of them in the Of area. At a conservative estimate, I would say this dialect is spoken by around 300,000 people.

You refer constantly to the "identity problem." Why is this so important to you?

Nowadays the identity problem comes up more often, and this is because traditional explanations, like official identity cards, don't give adequate answers. Some say the search for identity is a fashion that comes and goes. In their view, everyone is an individual, a human being and nothing else. Regardless of what anyone thinks, I consider the important thing is to protect our language, which we inherited from our forebears, and which is disappearing because we don't care about its disappearance, and also to protect our culture and the identity it created for us. Throughout the history of mankind, many ethnic groups living in the same geographical area have been absorbed by the dominant culture. Personally I am against others today sharing the fate of ethnic cultural groups which, during the course of history, were sometimes incorporated into the dominant culture and sometimes assimilated by force.

You often refer to the question, "Who am I?" to define the motives for specific research. Did your personal search play a decisive part?

I began to search for my identity because of the fact that the language my ancestors spoke was not Turkish. Because in the village, in town, at school, they taught us that we were Turks. In the neighborhood, at school, at work, we spoke Turkish. But at home, in the village, my grandfather, my grandmother, everyone in the family spoke to each other in the language we called "Romaiika." So what were we, "Romioi" or Turks? Now we speak Turkish. In my village the old people speak Romaiika, but they are the last to use the language. The coming generations will not be able to hear it and learn it. Let's say that we have agreed, as far as the present is concerned: We speak Turkish, therefore we are Turkish. But who were we until now, what happened to make us become Turks? By asking "Who am I?" I plunged into the unknown. I had to find the answer to this question at any cost. And that is how this adventure began.

When did this adventure begin, and what was your research based on?

At the end of the 1980s I began researching our identity and culture. But in Turkey I didn't manage to find written sources, or anything related to the language we spoke. I began, in amateur fashion, to collect Pontian words. I asked all the old people I met about our identity and language. I spoke to Turkish experts and researchers and discovered to my surprise that no work had been done in this field. At that time, aiming to find out at least a little information, I wrote letters and sent them to addresses in Greece that I had learned of purely by chance. In 1993, just when I was about to give up hope, I was invited to a Pontian festival in Kallithea, Attica. What I saw and the sounds I heard there literally changed my life. I was astonished that hundreds of kilometers from the land where I was born, I heard songs in the language of my ancestors, accompanied by the lyra; that I danced with unknown people in another country, and that I could talk and make myself understood in Pontian, which I thought was a language that was no use at all.

So I decided to focus my research on Erenkioi, my village in Of, and to study its living culture as an extant trace of Pontian culture. The result was this book that was published first in Turkey and then in Greece. It is in six parts, including the theoretical context, historical and ethnographic details, popular literature, folklore, nomenclature, a glossary and bibliography.

How was your book received in Turkey? Were there any problems with publication?

The book had an extremely good reception in academic circles, since it filled a gap in modern Turkish learning. The second edition is already in press. But it did give rise to misunderstandings, both in Turkey and in Greece. Both sides interpreted the book differently. I didn't come to Greece for three years, because of political incidents between the two countries. I hope that the improvement in the climate will facilitate scientific research into taboo subjects. And also that some groups in Greece that speak in the name of the Greek-speakers of Turkey will start to show more respect for that population.

What are the greatest problems arising from the investigation of questions of identity and national culture?

In today's world, problems centered on identity are not easily resolved. Indeed, when the question of ethnic identity arises, the alarm it causes can lead to conflict. The most recent example is the tragedy that occurred in Kosovo. Besides, we observe clashes - close by, in the heart of Europe - that stem from the aspirations of groups who share a common identity to create nations.

However, we must realize that at the end of this century, when cultural nationalism is being fomented and has become fashionable, national states which engage in a war of interests can easily exploit national and cultural identities that are in competition with each other. Although ethnic groups can express themselves freely, in the easiest and most peaceful manner, very many of them readily enter into disputes and are incited to conflict. Personally, I am of the opinion that we must discuss the subject of our cultural identity in a flexible manner which does not give rise to clashes, be aware of the sensitivity of the topic, and not ignore reality.

What is your opinion about Turkey's European outlook, as it emerges after the Helsinki summit?

The founders of the Republic of Turkey wanted to forge closer ties with Europe. Since then, unfortunately, the meaning of democracy in Turkey has not developed in parallel with Europe. We know the cause of this to be history and other political issues. Nevertheless, I interpret Europe's acceptance of Turkey in historical and sociological terms. That is to say, that Turkey is too important for Europe to be discarded. The decision that was taken bears out what I say. Moreover, we shall see that the idea of being European will help society rethink its ideology and its exclusive dependence on the state. We can see that the state and its mechanisms are already coming into question. This was a dream of ours that was a long time coming.

If the European Union had not accepted Turkey, what would have happened?

We don't even want to think about that, because Turkey has a lot of problems. One outcome of these problems is that they suffocate us. Who would that benefit - Europe, Greece, the Caucasus, the Middle East? Nobody, I think. In order to solve all these problems we need a broad horizon. This is what our links with the European Union have given us, to a certain extent. But it may not be enough. The Turkish people have a difficult life, with economic and social problems. For this reason, the time has come for Turkey to make some extremely important decisions and to embark on reforms in all sectors. Everyone accepts it, but it will not come about so easily. I think that the Turkish people are being tested by history. I believe that a successful outcome of this test will benefit everyone.


Newspaper : "International Herald Tribune", 25 April 2000

Onur
12-26-2012, 10:42 PM
How about the 450.000+ christians who had Turkish mothertongue and gone to Greece without even knowing a word of Greek back in 1923? What happened to them in Greece? Can they speak Turkish, their true mothertongue today?

Hell, leave the Turkish speakers aside, what happened to the Pontians who speaks Romaika language? How many Romaika speakers exists in Greece today after 100 years of population exchange? Isn't it strange that Romaika speakers still exists in muslim Turkey while there is pretty much no one in Greece? Now who assimilated who today?

It`s obvious that neo-hellenic state assimilated the both Romakia and Turkish speakers to the extinction while as you can see, this culture still survives in Turkey today.


Tell me Greek forumers, can anyone publish a book about the Turkish christians in your country? I mean, is it possible without getting death threats and got murdered in the end?

Coolguy1
01-07-2013, 07:24 PM
How about the 450.000+ christians who had Turkish mothertongue and gone to Greece without even knowing a word of Greek back in 1923? What happened to them in Greece? Can they speak Turkish, their true mothertongue today?

Hell, leave the Turkish speakers aside, what happened to the Pontians who speaks Romaika language? How many Romaika speakers exists in Greece today after 100 years of population exchange? Isn't it strange that Romaika speakers still exists in muslim Turkey while there is pretty much no one in Greece? Now who assimilated who today?

It`s obvious that neo-hellenic state assimilated the both Romakia and Turkish speakers to the extinction while as you can see, this culture still survives in Turkey today.


Tell me Greek forumers, can anyone publish a book about the Turkish christians in your country? I mean, is it possible without getting death threats and got murdered in the end?

The karamanlides are closer to 60,000 not 450,000 idiot

Onur
01-07-2013, 08:29 PM
The karamanlides are closer to 60,000 not 450,000 idiot
You are the idiot one.

There are many findings about the number of Turkish christians of Karaman by both international and Greek scholars. About ~400.000 of the refugees was Karamanlides.

Read my earlier message here, with quotes from a book, footnote 4;

About the population exchange of 1923. From a Greek scholar, whose family was also a member of the formerly Turkish christian community in Karaman, central Anatolia;
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2661/clipboard01kx.jpg

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=uSeUI9I_ni4C

There was some Turkish speaking christians in the Blacksea region too. I can easily say that at least half of a million people didn't know a word of Greek language when they gone to Greece. They were christian Turks.

Pontios
01-07-2013, 08:30 PM
Thanks for this thread! :D I never herd of him before!

Pontios
01-07-2013, 08:35 PM
Tell me Greek forumers, can anyone publish a book about the Turkish christians in your country? I mean, is it possible without getting death threats and got murdered in the end?
We even have a Turkish saint who we celebrate his day and many know his story of how he became a Saint and there was even a movie made about this.

St. Ahmed the Calligrapher
http://solzemli.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/saint_ahmed_the_calligrapher.jpg

Coolguy1
01-07-2013, 09:50 PM
You are the idiot one.

There are many findings about the number of Turkish christians of Karaman by both international and Greek scholars. About ~400.000 of the refugees was Karamanlides.

Read my earlier message here, with quotes from a book, footnote 4;


There was some Turkish speaking christians in the Blacksea region too. I can easily say that at least half of a million people didn't know a word of Greek language when they gone to Greece. They were christian Turks.

Complete bullshit, if you knew anything about the karamanlides you would know that they lived in only around 60 villages. 60 villages does not equal 400,000.

Hayalet
01-08-2013, 12:06 AM
I see no way there could have been 400,000 Karamanlides either. The said people lived here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Karamanlides_homeland.png

The number of Greek Orthodox people in provinces where this area falls on was about 80,000 1893-1897 and about 110,000 in 1914.

Coolguy1
01-08-2013, 12:10 AM
I see no way there could have been 400,000 Karamanlides either. The said people lived here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Karamanlides_homeland.png

The number of Greek Orthodox people in provinces where this area falls on was about 80,000 1893-1897 and about 110,000 in 1914.

Exactly, but dont forget that there were also Cappadocian Greeks who lived in those areas too

Partizan
01-08-2013, 12:24 AM
I see no way there could have been 400,000 Karamanlides either. The said people lived here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Karamanlides_homeland.png

The number of Greek Orthodox people in provinces where this area falls on was about 80,000 1893-1897 and about 110,000 in 1914.

Actually, İstamat Zihni Özdamar (http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0stamat_Zihni_%C3%96zdamar) was from Bodrum but he was considered as an Orthodox Turk too :confused: Actually, perhaps the number of "Turks of Greek Orthodox sect" might be 400,000. Apart from Urums and Karamanlıs, I do not know any other specific groups but since Eastern Romans settled a decent number of Pecheneg, Cuman and Uz Turks to Asia Minor between 9.th and 10.th century, Christian Turkic people in Asia Minor is nothing surprising.

kabeiros
01-08-2013, 12:30 AM
How about the 450.000+ christians who had Turkish mothertongue and gone to Greece without even knowing a word of Greek back in 1923? What happened to them in Greece? Can they speak Turkish, their true mothertongue today?Again? :bored:


Hell, leave the Turkish speakers aside, what happened to the Pontians who speaks Romaika language? There does not exist a language called Romaika - well it does but it's Latin, not Greek. Pontic Greeks spoke the Pontic Greek dialect, deal with it.


How many Romaika speakers exists in Greece today after 100 years of population exchange? Isn't it strange that Romaika speakers still exists in muslim Turkey while there is pretty much no one in Greece? Now who assimilated who today? If you can find even one Pontic Greek village in Greece, where the people can't speak the Pontic Greek dialect, I will give you a lollipop :cool:


It`s obvious that neo-hellenic state assimilated the both Romakia and Turkish speakers to the extinction while as you can see, this culture still survives in Turkey today.The Greeks can't assimilate other Greeks but hey, Onur is Onur


Tell me Greek forumers, can anyone publish a book about the Turkish christians in your country? I mean, is it possible without getting death threats and got murdered in the end?Didn't you just post a quote from a book written by a Karamanli, bre budala? :confused:

Onur
01-08-2013, 12:33 AM
I see no way there could have been 400,000 Karamanlides either.
Greek state have records of how many people came and from where in Anatolia and where they have been settled. Many Greek scholars wrote articles and books about these and according to a Greek historian named Karakasidou, around 400.000 Karamanlides came to Greece. She is a Karamanlis herself too.


The said people lived here:
...
No, this is just their homeland but Karamanlides was dispersed everywhere in Anatolia, to Aegean villages, Istanbul and up to the north, Blacksea side. There are reports of Karamanli christians in Istanbul as early as 16th century. There was few Turkish christian churches around Ankara, to the further north and Aegean side too.


The number of Greek Orthodox people in provinces where this area falls on was about 80,000 1893-1897 and about 110,000 in 1914.
If their number was 110.000 only around Karaman region, then it`s quite normal that their number was around 400.000 if we add people from surrounding regions.

kabeiros
01-08-2013, 12:33 AM
I see no way there could have been 400,000 Karamanlides either. The said people lived here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Karamanlides_homeland.png

The number of Greek Orthodox people in provinces where this area falls on was about 80,000 1893-1897 and about 110,000 in 1914.At least there are some Turkish members who are decent and sincere...

Coolguy1
01-08-2013, 12:43 AM
Greek state have records of how many people came and from where in Anatolia and where they have been settled. Many Greek scholars wrote articles and books about these and according to a Greek historian named Karakasidou, around 400.000 Karamanlides came to Greece. She is a Karamanlis herself too.


No, this is just their homeland but Karamanlides was dispersed everywhere in Anatolia, to Aegean villages, Istanbul and up to the north, Blacksea side. There are reports of Karamanli christians in Istanbul as early as 16th century. There was few Turkish christian churches around Ankara, to the further north and Aegean side too.


If their number was 110.000 only around Karaman region, then it`s quite normal that their number was around 400.000 if we add people from surrounding regions.

If there were over 400,000 karamanlides as you say then only 100,000 were exchanged, according to the 1928 census, turkophone orthodox were 103.642

Onur
01-08-2013, 12:46 AM
There does not exist a language called Romaika - well it does but it's Latin, not Greek. Pontic Greeks spoke the Pontic Greek dialect, deal with it.
Before 1890s, no one was calling their language as Greek but it was Romaika, the language of the Rums.

It wasn't Latin you stupid. It was Byzantine Greek with Turkish influence.


Didn't you just post a quote from a book written by a Karamanli, bre budala? :confused:
Yes, and this happened to her because of her studies;
0-7dyLAOlpU

So, my question remains valid;
Is it possible to work about these issues in Greece without receiving death threats?

Coolguy1
01-08-2013, 12:48 AM
Before 1890s, no one was calling their language as Greek but it was Romaika, the language of the Rums.

It wasn't Latin you stupid. It was Byzantine Greek with Turkish influence.


Yes, and this happened to her because of her studies;
0-7dyLAOlpU

So, my question remains valid; Is it possible to work for these issues in Greece without receiving death threats?

The same word was used in Greece proper :picard2::picard2::picard2:

Twistedmind
01-08-2013, 12:50 AM
Before 1890s, no one was calling their language as Greek but it was Romaika, the language of the Rums.

It wasn't Latin you stupid. It was Byzantine Greek with Turkish influence.

:picard2:
It was called Romaika before Turks arrived in Anatolia.
Elinika - Attic Classical, Koine Greek, Romaika - spoken vernacular, ancestor of all modern Greek dialects except Tsakonian.

kabeiros
01-08-2013, 01:05 AM
Before 1890s, no one was calling their language as Greek but it was Romaika, the language of the Rums.

It wasn't Latin you stupid. It was Byzantine Greek with Turkish influence.I have lost my interest in educating you about the use of Romios as an ethnonym for Greeks during the Byzantine and Ottoman periods, it's useless since you just don't want to get it. Greeks called their Greek language Romeika not Romaika, which literally means the language of the ancient Romans, therefore Latin. You should be more carefull when you try to troll Greeks, pseudo-Turk...



Yes, and this happened to her because of her studies;
0-7dyLAOlpU
This Karakasidou looks like a Turk and thinks like one, you can have her and any other ugly Turk who thinks like her, she's not representative of the Anatolian Greeks

Gospodine
01-08-2013, 02:43 PM
Interesting video I found on Pontic Greek/Romaika:

UcAYP4irSyQ

Mjora
01-08-2013, 04:48 PM
Majority of our Grecophone Muslims are very religious people and they don't want to be associated with a Christian nation.They are very loyal Ottoman identity.

Xenomorph
01-09-2013, 02:17 AM
I have lost my interest in educating you about the use of Romios as an ethnonym for Greeks during the Byzantine and Ottoman periods, it's useless since you just don't want to get it. Greeks called their Greek language Romeika not Romaika, which literally means the language of the ancient Romans, therefore Latin. You should be more carefull when you try to troll Greeks, pseudo-Turk...

Byzantine Greeks completely adopted the Roman identity, but not the Latin language. Increasingly after the seventh century, they saw Hellenic culture and romanitas as one and the same. Romios people were Greek speakers who saw themselves as Romans.

Twistedmind
01-09-2013, 02:26 AM
Byzantine Greeks completely adopted the Roman identity, but not the Latin language. Increasingly after the seventh century, they saw Hellenic culture and romanitas as one and the same. Romios people were Greek speakers who saw themselves as Romans.

And they were Romans in political sense, but their culture was not Roman.

Onur
01-09-2013, 09:29 AM
Byzantine Greeks completely adopted the Roman identity, but not the Latin language.
They adopted Latin tongue too. Their official language was Latin for about 350 years. They switched to Greek in late 7th century but the usage of Latin thoroughly continued `till their mutual excommunication in 11th century.

Xenomorph
01-09-2013, 08:51 PM
They adopted Latin tongue too. Their official language was Latin for about 350 years. They switched to Greek in late 7th century but the usage of Latin thoroughly continued `till their mutual excommunication in 11th century.

Latin wasn't a spoken language in the Eastern Roman Empire outside of the Balkans and a few scattered other communities. It remained the language of state partly due to tradition and partly due to the fact that the bulk of the Byzantine army was initially made up of Latin-speaking Thraco-Romans. Heraclius had switched to Greek in the early seventh century for the very reason that it wasn't efficient as most people in the empire didn't speak it.

Linet
01-09-2013, 09:05 PM
Please just see the video Gospodine posted :)


....my mind has strange powers :shocked:..... i can understand what those "Pontic Turks" say, as well as what the song says... :blink:....
Romeika= Greek
Romaika=Latin... Kabeiros already said that.... we call ourselves Romious even today... Hellenism=Romiosini....we use them both...so Turks dont try to teach us what we are please :eyes

Linet
01-09-2013, 09:07 PM
They adopted Latin tongue too. Their official language was Latin for about 350 years. They switched to Greek in late 7th century but the usage of Latin thoroughly continued `till their mutual excommunication in 11th century.

Have you ever read a history book? :book2:
...have you? :1099:...really now

Twistedmind
01-09-2013, 11:15 PM
They adopted Latin tongue too. Their official language was Latin for about 350 years. They switched to Greek in late 7th century but the usage of Latin thoroughly continued `till their mutual excommunication in 11th century.
What druggs you use? :picard1: Even in time of Justinian Latin was not known except for scholars and legal experts. Latin was used, together with Greek, in Army and judicial system in all other fields Greek. Latin was never used in Eastern Church, acctually even Roman Church used Greek until 4th century.
Onur, when came to histor you are hilarious ignorant, which poisons ewery thread about peoples you dont like with your childish statements.

Gospodine
01-10-2013, 05:58 AM
Please just see the video Gospodine posted :)

They seem like such an interesting bunch of people. I wonder what kind of oral histories/legends they have passed down from the elder generations. Those women in that video are probably walking museums.

How much of what they said did you understand Linet?

Scholarios
01-10-2013, 06:03 AM
How about the 450.000+ christians who had Turkish mothertongue and gone to Greece without even knowing a word of Greek back in 1923? What happened to them in Greece? Can they speak Turkish, their true mothertongue today?

Hell, leave the Turkish speakers aside, what happened to the Pontians who speaks Romaika language? How many Romaika speakers exists in Greece today after 100 years of population exchange? Isn't it strange that Romaika speakers still exists in muslim Turkey while there is pretty much no one in Greece? Now who assimilated who today?

It`s obvious that neo-hellenic state assimilated the both Romakia and Turkish speakers to the extinction while as you can see, this culture still survives in Turkey today.


Tell me Greek forumers, can anyone publish a book about the Turkish christians in your country? I mean, is it possible without getting death threats and got murdered in the end?

Well, you know what might happen if you called a Christian person as "Turk". This was used as an insult, specifically by Slavic speaking people in Macedonia who called them as "Mazirs" and you can see them being called "Turks" also these days (despite the fact that they identified as Greeks since before the Population exchange).

But I am in favor of them calling themselves anything they want. You know a group of Christians calling themselves 'Turkish" would also be an anomaly in Turkey as well.

Linet
01-10-2013, 12:46 PM
They seem like such an interesting bunch of people. I wonder what kind of oral histories/legends they have passed down from the elder generations. Those women in that video are probably walking museums.

How much of what they said did you understand Linet?

Most of it... lets say 70-80%
They talk Greek :rose: and then they throw a word that i know is greek but is ancient :old and not even in use any more, so i cant be totally sure how is meant. And even when i know the meaning, i still can lose it because in Greek the same word has different usage or even meaning by altering the ending or even just the accent.
Also they use many homeric words and in few of them the meaning has changed through the milleniums so i know the word how is meant now but it doesnt fit in what i hear...

Böri
06-24-2015, 04:28 PM
Well, you know what might happen if you called a Christian person as "Turk". This was used as an insult, specifically by Slavic speaking people in Macedonia who called them as "Mazirs" and you can see them being called "Turks" also these days (despite the fact that they identified as Greeks since before the Population exchange).

But I am in favor of them calling themselves anything they want. You know a group of Christians calling themselves 'Turkish" would also be an anomaly in Turkey as well.

Turk is ethnic thing it's not associated with any religion. Gagauz are Turkic Orthodoxes and nobody discusses that in Turkey. Some Pontians stayed and became Muslims. It was their choice, Turks and Rums didn't really hate each other in the region until Greek invasion of Western Turkey that happened after First World War. There is shared culture between Black Sea Turks and Pontian Rums which still survives today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW9BCoi5PvM
Look from the positive side. My great grand father also went to town center and hugged his Pontian friend a last time upon their departure.