Haplogroup N: Originally Mongoloid or Caucasoid?

[Sky earth]

Were the carriers of haplogroup N originally Mongoloid or Caucasoid?
I find that really confusing because Finns and Nganasans carry this Y-DNA and both look the opposite of what they are.They also belong to the same language family. Maybe it's wrong to associate haplogroups with Phenotypes or the Subclades have something to do with it. I ask mainly the haplogroup experts here:D

[Insuperable]

Were the carriers of haplogroup N originally Mongoloid or Caucasoid?
I find that really confusing because Finns and Nganasans carry this Y-DNA and both look the opposite of what they are.They also belong to the same language family. Maybe it's wrong to associate haplogroups with Phenotypes or the Subclades have something to do with it. I ask mainly the haplogroup experts here:D

Good morning!

What matters is aDNA.

[Artek]

Original N carriers seem to be rather Mongoloid, look at the distribution of old N1c subclades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231_%28Y-DNA%29#Subclade_Distribution

[Sky earth]

Good morning!

What matters is aDNA.

I know that aDNA matters. I rather asked how the first N carriers look like and if they were Mongoloid or Caucasoid;)

[Insuperable]

I know that aDNA matters. I rather asked how the first N carriers look like and if they were Mongoloid or Caucasoid;)

I am sorry for my misunderstanding. I thought it is quite obvious that N carriers were Mongoloids.

[Sky earth]

I am sorry for my misunderstanding. I thought it is quite obvious that N carriers were Mongoloids.


Don't worry about it!;)

I'm not really sure but I also tend to this.
there is a chance that the first N carriers were Mongoloid who mixed with Caucasoid women because Udmurts have more Caucasoid mtDNA while their y-DNA is N like the Finns.

[Accountant]

Haplogroup N1c, the most common haplogroup among Finnish men, is curiously often labelled as specifically Asian or even Mongoloid, even though some 20-22 million European men and less than 1 million Asian men carry this marker! But while the sub clades of the haplogroups R, J, E e.t.c. have several hundred million carries outside Europe, they are mysteriously still called European.

Anyway, back to N1c (previously known as N3). One man was “born” in a region which is modern day northwestern China/South Siberia around +/- 12-14 000 years ago from where his descendants spread to Eastern Europe.
(S. Rootsi A counter-clockwise northern route of the Y-chromosome haplogroup N from Southeast Asia towards Europe 2004)
In comparison, the father to one of the most common haplogroups in Europe, R1a, was born in very much the same region and arrived after that in Europe only it happened a little earlier than for N1c.
(A. Klyosov DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidence Written in Y-Chromosome, Part II: Walking the Map 2009)
So, what makes R1a less Asian than N1c? Double standards?

For a better understanding of the ethnic situation of now and then it could be pointed out that the first evidences of Chinese people in the area are only from some 2000 years ago. It is good to bring up the famous Tarim Basin mummies. They are a collection of well preserved bodies and have been dated to be 5-7000 years old. They are of clearly Europoid features from the heart of that central Asian region. It is most commonly believed that they were speakers of Tocharian, an eastern Indo-European language. Archeological evidences cannot confirm the presence of clearly Asian people in that area prior to 4000 years ago.
So, in pointing to the central Asian/south Siberian birthplace and arguing that N1c would be Asian or Mongoloid is tricky.

I hope this helps people make their conclusions.

[finþaų]

It predates the Mongoloid phenotype in Eurasia, judging by East Eurasian skulls from that period.

The most ancient Mongoloid remains to have been found as of yet are merely 5500-7000 years old.

[Prince Carlo]

The right answer would be Uralic.

[Sky earth]

The right answer would be Uralic.


Yakuts are Turkic and about 90 % of them are N carriers

[Prince Carlo]

Yakuts are Turkic and about 90 % of them are N carriers

It's a different subclade.

[Sky earth]

It's a different subclade.


I know but it's still haplogroup N

[finþaų]

The ancestral N likely predates anatomically modern Mongoloids and Caucasoids, so there's your answer, I suppose.

[Sky earth]

The ancestral N likely predates anatomically modern Mongoloids and Caucasoids, so there's your answer, I suppose.


So the question is remain open how they looked like

[finþaų]

So it's remain open how they looked like

They probably looked like archaic cromagniform Eurasians, if I am allowed to speculate.

[safinator]

Good morning!

What matters is aDNA.
And still it doesn't correlate very highly to phenotype.

[Sky earth]

[QUOTE=safinator;1254964]And still it doesn't correlate very highly to phenotype.[/QUOTE


Yes but it correlates 1000 times better to phenotypes than Haplogroups.

[SKYNET]

Haplogroup N: Originally Mongoloid or Caucasoid?

Mongoloid.

[finþaų]

Mongoloid.

How is that possible, considering the fact that N is around 15,000 to 25,000 years old?

[Insuperable]

And still it doesn't correlate very highly to phenotype.

Yes, it does not correlate very highly but it does correlate to some (high) degree but I had something else in mind while writing it and not that. I meant to say that Finns are autosomally among the highest percintiles of "being European" but it seems that our Turkish friend was already aware of that.

So, Sky Earth as Accountant nicely puts not even R haplogroup is "European" in origin but it is Central Asian in origin (Polako hypothesized that Indo-Europeans were 75% North European and 25% West Asian/Gedrosian) where we can see similar effect where they were (are) autosomally largely European but have (had) foreign haplogroups. The same is with all others haplogroups (except haplogroup I to which Cro-magnons belonged) so discussing only haplogroup N makes no sense.
What in this modern world matters are specific subclades linked to specific nations where in this case that would be N1c for example since what matters is aDNA.


Somebody correct me if I am speakig rubbish.

[SKYNET]

How is that possible, considering the fact that N is around 15,000 to 25,000 years old?



Okay.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG/800px-Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG


http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11836183/1024/Anonymous/H.png

[finþaų]

Okay.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG/800px-Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG


http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11836183/1024/Anonymous/H.png

What is your point?

[Artek]

Well. Going that far, proto N1c guy could look like that

Reconstruction:
http://i.imgur.com/AN0up.jpg

Skull:
http://i.imgur.com/L96HH.gif
http://i.imgur.com/LIEwd.gif
Neither this is a Europid CM, nor a guy that we can call a typical Mongoloid bloke.

[SKYNET]

What is your point?

do you see that NO is closer to N? The Finnish have loads of haplogroup N, a haplogroup common in Asia. A some of the Finns are caucasoids because there live a big part of Swedes

[finþaų]

Well. Going that far, proto N1c guy could look like that

Neither this is a Europid CM, nor a guy that we can call a typical Mongoloid bloke.

Simply an archaic proto-morphology. The skull does not display anatomically modern "Caucasoid" nor "Mongoloid" features.


do you see that NO is closer to N? The Finnish have loads of haplogroup N, a haplogroup common in Asia. A some of the finns are caucasoids because there live a big part of Swedes

Again, what is your point? The oldest "Mongoloid" remains in Eurasia are approximately 5500-7000 years old, so how could a 15,000-25,000 year old Eurasian haplogroup have originated in a "Mongoloid" population?

Your comment on the racial nature of the Finns is incredibly misinformed, and I won't bother discussing it.

[Insuperable]

do you see that NO is closer to N? The Finnish have loads of haplogroup N, a haplogroup common in Asia. A some of the Finns are caucasoids because there live a big part of Swedes

Are you trying to say that Finns are Syberians because of large N frequencies and that Western and Eastern Europeans are Pakistanis because of large R frequencies?

I do not know why people are so obsessed about N haplogroup and Finns.

[Sky earth]

Well. Going that far, proto N1c guy could look like that

Neither this is a Europid CM, nor a guy that we can call a typical Mongoloid bloke.


He looks Eurasian. If we consider the fact that the Haplogroups N and O have the same origins and are descendants of the Haplogroup NO, then the first N carriers would have been Mongoloid. My theory is that the first N carriers were Mongoloid and cold adapted, as they went further west they didn't need epichantic folds, because the climate is milder in Western Russia than in Siberia, so the Eyes became rounder.

[finþaų]

Are you trying to say that Finns are Syberians because of large N frequencies and that Western and Eastern Europeans are Pakistanis because of large R frequencies?

I do not know why people are so obsessed about N haplogroup and Finns.

West Europeans are naturally tribesmen from Cameroon. :D

http://i.imgur.com/JvRei.png

[Insuperable]

Japanese have a lot of D and Albanians have E and their haplogroups descend from haplogroup DE.

Albanians are Japanese and Ethiopian mix.:laugh:
Finns are Syberians
Large number of Western and Eastern Europeans are Pakistanis.

:laugh:

[archangel]

it predates races

[finþaų]

He looks Eurasian. If we consider the fact that the Haplogroups N and O have the same origins and are descendants of the Haplogroup NO, then the first N carriers would have been Mongoloid. My theory is that the first N carriers were Mongoloid and cold adapted, as they went further west they didn't need epichantic folds, because the climate is milder in Western Russia than in Siberia got milder, so the Eyes became rounder.

How could they have been Mongoloid, considering the fact that the Mongoloid phenotype is a rather recent adaptation (in the context of Eurasia, at least)?

[Sky earth]

How could they have been Mongoloid, considering the fact that the Mongoloid phenotype is a rather recent adaptation (in the context of Eurasia, at least)?

Maybe the Mongoloids are older than 7500 BC?

[finþaų]

Maybe the Mongoloids are older than 7500 BC?

Then we would probably have found older distinctly "Mongoloid" skulls.

[Insuperable]

Maybe the Mongoloids are older than 7500 BC?

And so what if they are? What is your point?

[Sky earth]

Then we would probably have found older distinctly "Mongoloid" skulls.


Maybe we will find;)

I just create theories. The whole Haplogroup thing is quite confusing.

[finþaų]

Maybe we will find;)

I just create theories. The whole Haplogroup thing is quite confusing.

Speculative hypotheses, you mean. Theories must be verifiable/falsifiable. :P

[Sky earth]

And so what if they are? What is your point?


I just wanted to say if the oldest mongoloid skull predates the age of Haplogroup N then my hypothetis could be true

[Insuperable]

I just wanted to say if the oldest mongoloid skull predates the age of Haplogroup N then my hypothetis could be true

If that is all you need or want to know ok then;).

[SKYNET]

Are you trying to say that Finns are Syberians because of large N frequencies and that Western and Eastern Europeans are Pakistanis because of large R frequencies?

I do not know why people are so obsessed about N haplogroup and Finns.



maybe they look like a caucasoids but their language is not caucasoid, as turkish :) and what does mean "Haplogroup N: Originally Mongoloid or Caucasoid?", is not understandable

[finþaų]

maybe they look like a caucasoids but their language is not caucasoid, as turkish :) and what does mean "Haplogroup N: Originally Mongoloid or Caucasoid?", is not understandable

Are you for real, pal? Languages cannot be "Caucasoid", it's like claiming that the length of a given object is green.

[Sky earth]

If that is all you need or want to know ok then;).


I haven't made a DNA test but I wish I were haplogroup N as this Haplotype is quite common in Siberia. I wouldn't find it bad if the first N carriers were Caucasoid or Mongoloid. I just love rare haplogroups like N and Q and I'm really interested in these kind of haplogroups and want to know everything about them. It would be horrible for me if I were an R1b or J carrier but you can't chance your genes;)

[SKYNET]

Are you for real, pal? Languages cannot be "Caucasoid", it's like claiming that the length of a given object is green.


your thread says " Haplogroup N: Originally Mongoloid or Caucasoid?", and I gave an answer "Mongoloid". This is my opinion.
Do you have the haplo type N? I'm sorry then.

[Accountant]

Agrippa-school is alive and well.

[finþaų]

your thread says " Haplogroup N: Originally Mongoloid or Caucasoid?", and I gave an answer "Mongoloid". This is my opinion.
Do you have the haplo type N? I'm sorry then.

My thread? :confused:

I am R1a, as my profile indicates; that is a fact utterly irrelevant to this discussion, however.

If you cannot motivate your answer, why bother answering at all?

[Sky earth]

your thread says " Haplogroup N: Originally Mongoloid or Caucasoid?", and I gave an answer "Mongoloid". This is my opinion.
Do you have the haplo type N? I'm sorry then.

What are you talking about? I started this Thread not finbau, because I just wanted to know if the first N carriers were Mongoloid or Caucasoid. If you believe they were "Mongoloid" than good for you!

[Insuperable]

It is said that N originated in Far Asia. Everything else is mere speculation.

[SKYNET]

My thread? :confused:

I am R1a, as my profile indicates; that is a fact utterly irrelevant to this discussion, however.

If you cannot motivate your answer, why bother answering at all?



sorry for my mistake. Dude, everyone has their own opinion, and plus there are more a multiple different sources of arguments. I did read about the type "N" and it's enough for me to be sure who is who.
Cheers

[Comte Arnau]

One could certainly draw a parallel with Caucasoid R and Amerindian Q, both descendants of P.

[finþaų]

One could certainly draw a parallel with Caucasoid R and Amerindian Q, both descendants of P.

We have Q in Europe, too. :)

http://i.imgur.com/dcEO4.gif

[Comte Arnau]

We have Q in Europe, too. :)

http://i.imgur.com/dcEO4.gif

I told you bringing Pocahontas wasn't a good idea. :)

[Artek]

I told you bringing Pocahontas wasn't a good idea. :)
So Pocahontas was a male?! Oh my...

[Comte Arnau]

So Pocahontas was a male?! Oh my...

You doubt it?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Pocahontas_by_Simon_van_de_Passe_1616.jpg

[finþaų]

This song was penned in 1615; its original title was I say, what hath Pocahontas between her legs?

nf0oXY4nDxE

[Siginulfo]

The skull and reconstruction that Artek posted is Australoid. The skull is clearly Australoid, but obviously there's an ongoing adaptation to cold climates. So I think the answer to the question is that N carriers were originally Australoids in the process of adaptation/specialization to cold climates. Call it Northern Australoid if you like.

Compare an Australid skull with that posted by Artek


http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/gl-australidsk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LIEwd.gif

[Artek]

The skull and reconstruction that Artek posted is Australoid. The skull is clearly Australoid, but obviously there's an ongoing adaptation to cold climates. So I think the answer to the question is that N carriers were originally Australoids in the process of adaptation/specialization to cold climates. Call it Northern Australoid if you like.

Compare an Australid skull with that posted by Artek


http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/gl-australidsk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LIEwd.gif

The only notable differences are a projecting midface and a reduction in browridge size.
Well, actually skull I've posted is much more robust and seems to be more progressive.

It was not an Australoid skull, but an archaic Eurasian/proto-mongoloid one.

[Siginulfo]

Well, actually skull I've posted is much more robust and seems to be more progressive.

It was not an Australoid skull, but an archaic Eurasian/proto-mongoloid one.

I think it's normal that a 18.000-years-old skull is more progressive than a much older Australid type skull from Australia. But I don't think the skull you posted is more robust, look at Australid skull, its browridges are much heavier and its lower jaw too. The differences you see in the skull are due to cold adaptation for that Chinese skull.
Anyway, it is not sure that the skull you posted is from a N-carrier, it could be from a Jomon, giventhat Jomon culture came from Indochinese Peninsula and passed through Northern China to arrive in Japan. It is not impossible, Jomon culture us dated to 14.000 years ago in Japan.

[kabeiros]

The first carrier of haplogroup N was neither Mongoloid nor Caucasoid but an archaic human (it is the same with haplogroup E1b1b, which northerners very easily associate with Negroid phenotypes although this haplogroup is carried predominantly by Caucasoid populations)

[Siginulfo]

The first carrier of haplogroup N was neither Mongoloid nor Caucasoid but an archaic human (it is the same with haplogroup E1b1b, which northerners very easily associate with Negroid phenotypes although this haplogroup is carried predominantly by Caucasoid populations)

Well, the only archaic human in Asia that is neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid is actually called Australoid.

[kabeiros]

Well, the only archaic human in Asia that is neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid is actually called Australoid.
Not really, when humans entered in Asia they were neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid nor Australoid, this are types which came into existence much later

[Siginulfo]

Not really, when humans entered in Asia they were neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid nor Australoid, this are types which came into existence much later

Yes, but haplogroup N originated 20.000 years ago, a time when Australoids were fully developed. And anthropologically speaking, the most archaic human living in Asia is actually the Australoid/Veddoid. There were no other races in Asia other than Australoids until recent times, Veddah are ancient and Australoid, 14.000-years-old Jomon people are ancient and said to be Archaic Caucasoids/Australoids.

[Sky earth]

Not really, when humans entered in Asia they were neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid nor Australoid, this are types which came into existence much later


What were they then?

[Siginulfo]

What were they then?

According to his words they should be Proto-Khoi-Sanid...

[kabeiros]

What were they then? We could call them Japhethoids, a type which later split into Caucasoid and Mongoloid races

[Sky earth]

We could call them Japhethoids, a type which later split into Caucasoid and Mongoloid races


I researched for this word but found nothing

[Siginulfo]

We could call them Japhethoids, a type which later split into Caucasoid and Mongoloid races

And Australoid? Those Japhethoids can be called Australoids.
Haplogroup M today is most common in Papua Nrw Guinea/Melanesia and people living there have quite often Australoid appearance. Haplogroup N is "brother" of M, I think It's logical to think that if they were not Mongoloid nor Caucasoid they are surely Australoid.

[Sky earth]

And Australoid? Those Japhethoids can be called Australoids.
Haplogroup M today is most common in Papua Nrw Guinea/Melanesia and people living there have quite often Australoid appearance. Haplogroup N is "brother" of M, I think It's logical to think that if they were not Mongoloid nor Caucasoid they are surely Australoid.


Haplogroup N is the "brother" of Haplogroup O as both of them have the same ancestor

[Siginulfo]

Haplogroup N is the "brother" of Haplogroup O as both of them have the same ancestor

Haplogroups N, O and M all have originated from the common ancestor haplogroup MNOPS a.k.a. K*

[kabeiros]

Australoids were created after this ''Japhethoid'' type (haplogroup K) mixed with Denisovans

[Sky earth]

Haplogroups N, O and M all have originated from the common ancestor haplogroup MNOPS a.k.a. K*


N and O are still more related than N and M
They is no Haplogroup called MN but NO

[Siginulfo]

Australoids were created after this ''Japhethoid'' type (haplogroup K) mixed with Denisovans

I think instead that Australoids mixed with Denisovans and, through other processess such as infantilisation and cold-adaptation they became Mongoloids.

[Siginulfo]

N and O are still more related than N and M
They is no Haplogroup called MN but NO

What's your point? Are you trying to say that NO was Mongoloid? Come on, Mongoloids originated recently, at the time of origin of NO there were only Australoids in Asia. Can you report me a Caucasoid or Mongoloid skull in East Asia prior to 20.000 years ago?

[kabeiros]

What makes you think that Australoids are at the root and not mixed themselves? Their phenotype looks like a mix of a human with a non-human hominin

[Siginulfo]

What makes you think that Australoids are at the root and not mixed themselves? Their phenotype looks like a mix of a human with a non-human hominin

Because Australoids possess Archaic features absent in Mongoloids, and because Australoids possess more ancient DNA than Mongoloids. Why don't we see Australoid appearance in Siberia and China then?

Can you link me a source that asserts Australoids are half-humans?

[Siginulfo]

And If Australoids are a mix with Denisovans, why Hadhramauti people in Yemen are fully Australoid? I don't think Denisovans were found in Arabia back then.

[kabeiros]

Can you link me a source that asserts Australoids are half-humans?

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/homo.sapiens.150k.jpg

[Siginulfo]

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/homo.sapiens.150k.jpg

Read my reply on Hadhramauti people.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Japhethoids

That sounds like Semitic Biblical version of anthropology again..Is it a serious classification?

[finþaų]

That sounds like Semitic Biblical version of anthropology again..Is it a serious classification?

"Serious classification" requires proper hard measurements. :P

[Sky earth]

What's your point? Are you trying to say that NO was Mongoloid? Come on, Mongoloids originated recently, at the time of origin of NO there were only Australoids in Asia. Can you report me a Caucasoid or Mongoloid skull in East Asia prior to 20.000 years ago?


I just wanted to tell you that N and M are "cousins" but not "brothers". I didn't say that NO carriers were Mongoloid. I believe they were Australiods like you. I just think that the first N carriers could be rather Mongoloid than Caucasoid. Of course that's just my hypothetis. They could be also rather Caucasoid.

[Vesuvian Sky]

The position on 'N' in relation to the DNA of Europe is a somewhat touchy subject ('specially for Fins it seems). Initially, many thought its well represented appearance in N. Europe among Uralic speaking populations coupled w/ its significant distribution among Siberian Uralics meant it was the result of Mesolithic colonization of Uralic speakers into Europe.

However, some seem very against this. I know some n. euro's McDonalds BGA shows them with some East Asian but whether or not that's attributalbe to actual Uralic Lappid/Mong. types during the Mesolithic is partly contested by some linguists who claim Uralic languages appear in N. Europe as a result of more recent migration rather then archaic Mesolithic.

[Sky earth]

There is another hypothetis which I created
It could be that the first N carriers were Caucasoid and went from east to west as N originated in the far east. I take the Finns and Nenets as example: They traveld through Siberia and The finns went further west to Europe while the Nenets went further north and they adapted the cold climate there and their Epicanthic folds were formed.

[Accountant]

The position on 'N' in relation to the DNA of Europe is a somewhat touchy subject ('specially for Fins it seems).

Which kind of people want to hear false rumors about themselves? Now let me have another go at this:



Anyway, back to N1c (previously known as N3). One man was “born” in a region which is modern day northwestern China/South Siberia around +/- 12-14 000 years ago from where his descendants spread to Eastern Europe.



For a better understanding of the ethnic situation of now and then it could be pointed out that the first evidences of Chinese people in the area are only from some 2000 years ago. It is good to bring up the famous Tarim Basin mummies. They are a collection of well preserved bodies and have been dated to be 5-7000 years old. They are of clearly Europoid features from the heart of that central Asian region.


Archeological evidences cannot confirm the presence of clearly Asian people in that area prior to 4000 years ago.


N1c is non-mongoloid until proven otherwise.


Initially, many thought its well represented appearance in N. Europe among Uralic speaking populations coupled w/ its significant distribution among Siberian Uralics meant it was the result of Mesolithic colonization of Uralic speakers into Europe.

Mixing language with genetics isn't very scientific, for instance:


the human biological data (craniometric, nuclear genetic markers, mitochondrian DNA, and Y-chromosomal DNA) supports the continuity theory by showing the Baltic-Finns to have closer genetic affinities with
their Scandinavian neighbors than with the eastern Finno-Ugric speaking
populations.

http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf

[finþaų]

I was going to post, but Accountant did a superior job before I managed to compile mine. :)

[Vesuvian Sky]

Which kind of people want to hear false rumors about themselves?

Most Fins look fully Caucasoid though some seem to have a little bit of an 'Asian' look. I know a friend from college who was from Finland and she looked easily Germanic Scan. but she also had a Swedish last name.

There is of course Uralic influence into Finland but when did this occur precisely? And to what type of migration event or is it linguistic superimposition? How would Bronze age Seima-Turbino graves play into all this if it all?





Mixing language with genetics isn't very scientific....

Well there is or can be a positive corellation between people, genes and languages but not absolute.

I would agree that 'N''s position in Europe is not completely understood as well as it could be but really most HG's in relation to how they got into Europe are not IMO. More aDNA is definitely needed here.

[Siginulfo]

I just wanted to tell you that N and M are "cousins" but not "brothers". I didn't say that NO carriers were Mongoloid. I believe they were Australiods like you. I just think that the first N carriers could be rather Mongoloid than Caucasoid. Of course that's just my hypothetis. They could be also rather Caucasoid.

I agree with you and respect you. But I don't think they were originally Caucasoids. If you look at the reconstruction of the Chinese skull and its reconstruction, it is evolving in a rather Mongoloid direction. Consider their habitat, in those cold landscapes it would be more useful to possess Mongoloid cold-adapted features.

[Accountant]

Most Fins look fully Caucasoid though some seem to have a little bit of an 'Asian' look. I know a friend from college who was from Finland and she looked easily Germanic Scan. but she also had a Swedish last name.

Some Finns definitely have Asiatic features such as round face, short stature and weak body- and facial hair growth. However I can't think of anyone with an epicanthic fold. Now just to remind where we stand overall:


An examination of average Mongol-index values reveals that
they increase toward the east. The inhabitants of the British Isles
(12.9%) have the sharpest facial profiles and the Buryats
(90.0%) of the Lake Baikal region have the flattest faces. The
Volga-Finnic-speaking Mordvians (39.4%) and Austrians
(32.4%) have the flattest faces in Europe, but the Finns (25.4%)
and the Saami (25.5%) are close to the European average
(24.9%).



There is of course Uralic influence into Finland but when did this occur precisely? And to what type of migration event or is it linguistic superimposition? How would Bronze age Seima-Turbino graves play into all this if it all?

I wish I knew the answers.


Well there is or can be a positive corellation between people, genes and languages but not absolute.

Yes but it can be completely turned around through slavery for an example.

[finþaų]

Some Finns definitely have Asiatic features such as round face, short stature and weak body- and facial hair growth. However I can't think of anyone with an epicanthic fold.

To be fair, though, those features are not exclusively "Asiatic" at all. Superficial similarity does not imply descent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution

[Siginulfo]

There is another hypothetis which I created
It could be that the first N carriers were Caucasoid and went from east to west as N originated in the far east. I take the Finns and Nenets as example: They traveld through Siberia and The finns went further west to Europe while the Nenets went further north and they adapted the cold climate there and their Epicanthic folds were formed.

But this view is not supported by craniometric evidences. There were no Caucasoids in East Asia back 20.000 years ago, and considering genetic "cousins" of N that were Australoids, I think this is the same for haplogroup N originally. The N carriers in Europe acquired Caucasoid phenotype from Mesolithic populations, because usually an invading population acquires the phenotype of the invaded population, as occured for example in Cameroon when R1b1* entered it, but today we do not see "Caucasoid" features in Cameroonians.

[Pallantides]

Some Finns definitely have Asiatic features such as round face, short stature and weak body- and facial hair growth. However I can't think of anyone with an epicanthic fold.

Such features(including epicanthic folds) can be found among all Northerners though not just Finns.

[Accountant]

Such features(including epicanthic folds) can be found among all Northerners though not just Finns.

No. I refuse to believe this.

[Pallantides]

No. I refuse to believe this.

Why?


Two Norwegian women with such features:
http://i.imgur.com/jn9ZT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tV09k.jpg

[Accountant]

Why?

:p

[AinoMaria]

Yes, it does not correlate very highly but it does correlate to some (high) degree but I had something else in mind while writing it and not that. I meant to say that Finns are autosomally among the highest percintiles of "being European" but it seems that our Turkish friend was already aware of that.

So, Sky Earth as Accountant nicely puts not even R haplogroup is "European" in origin but it is Central Asian in origin (Polako hypothesized that Indo-Europeans were 75% North European and 25% West Asian/Gedrosian) where we can see similar effect where they were (are) autosomally largely European but have (had) foreign haplogroups. The same is with all others haplogroups (except haplogroup I to which Cro-magnons belonged) so discussing only haplogroup N makes no sense.
What in this modern world matters are specific subclades linked to specific nations where in this case that would be N1c for example since what matters is aDNA.


Somebody correct me if I am speakig rubbish.

Could u explain why in Finland Blondism is more common than in sweden and even more common in FU's in Russia that ethnic Russians, i've heard mostly that ancient finno ugrics were cromangoid, if both are haplotype I traits, and I is supposed to be indo european haplogroup if it's traits are more common in uralics than in indoeuropeans?

[AinoMaria]

Well. Going that far, proto N1c guy could look like that

Neither this is a Europid CM, nor a guy that we can call a typical Mongoloid bloke.

what is it if it's not europid or mongoloid?

[AinoMaria]

One could certainly draw a parallel with Caucasoid R and Amerindian Q, both descendants of P.

well, that's kinda obvious that if we draw parallel with uralic N and Mongoloid O then the same goes with Caucasoid R and Amerindian Q

[Albion]

Proto-Mongoloid. N carriers in Europe descend from Proto-Mongoloids and have become Caucasoid by ancient race mixing with European women and IE invaders. Proto-Mongoloid ancestry in modern NE Europeans will be rather negligible, but the N line ultimately goes back to it.

[Sisak]

Don't worry about it!;)

I'm not really sure but I also tend to this.
there is a chance that the first N carriers were Mongoloid who mixed with Caucasoid women because Udmurts have more Caucasoid mtDNA while their y-DNA is N like the Finns.

Buranovske babushke are from Udmurtia.

[finþaų]

what is it if it's not europid or mongoloid?

"Europid" and "Mongoloid" are just general categories as defined by humans (not carved in stone).

[ButlerKing]

The ancestral N likely predates anatomically modern Mongoloids and Caucasoids, so there's your answer, I suppose.

Sorry to burst your bubbles but:

"The human fossil remains of the Ordos Man from Salawusu site dated between 50,000 and 35,000 BCE show strong Mongoloid features, specifically on the fore-tooth and occipital bone.[4] "

[Harkonnen]

If we are to follow the latest from Lazaridis, the point of this thread is moot as caucasoid race does not exist in the genetic sense, unless we are to see it as a very young node, meaning that there can not be no simple West Eurasia/East Eurasia dichotomy. You could still make a question as to whether N is Proto-(North?)Eurasian versus Mongoloid. But anyway what are mongoloids but highly evolved (and drifted) Proto-Eurasians.

[Jana]

Nice thread, I have been wondering this as well. But I think some people here refer to y-DNA haplogroup N, and thread is in mt-DNA section ? Very different thing, since mt-DNA N is rare in Europe, slightly less rare among Arabs it seems...... if someone knows more, please do tell:)

[alfieb]

Why is this thread in the mtDNA forum? Are we not talking about Y-DNA?

[Jana]

Why is this thread in the mtDNA forum? Are we not talking about Y-DNA?

I think they are. But I hoped thread was about mt-N, .....hmmm ?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Where's Butler King when you need him to discuss the importance of Paelo vs. Neo mongoloid to this debate?

[Harkonnen]

I guess this is the study to start, what comes to origins of N

http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2014/06/refined-structure-in-haplogroup-k-m526.html

This study would then suggest that the origin of NO would be somewhere in Southern China. As that study puts the rest of the K(MNOPS) posse even deeper into South East Asia, the origin would then indeed look very eastern. Tho we have the case of Mal'ta, which was some now extinct R, a result that casts a questionmark to the Karafet study.

But then again we have ancient DNA in the form of the Ust-Ishim man.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.fi/2014/10/ust-ishim-belongs-to-k-m526.html

Unlike what was originally reported, the Ust-Ishim man looks to be actually a tad closer to the NO node, than the the rest of K group, including P posse, daddy of y-dna:s R and Q. But we are talking here about few thousand years max, so all in all this is a very close basal K-Man. I guess this Ust-Ishim man good be somewhat meaningful then what comes to the origins of N. Unlike what was thought some years ago, N now looks to be a very old haplogroup.
Here is interesting speculation from another forum dealing with this issue


First is the question of where the MRCA of N-M231 and O-M175 has lived. This is a question of purely theoretical (via what route have anatomically modern humans spread across the globe? type) interest IMHO, and does not bear much relevance upon the genomic affinities among modern populations who carry these Y-DNA lineages vis-a-vis one another or vis-a-vis modern populations who do not contain any N-M231 or O-M175 lineages because the branch length between the K2 node and the NO node is short (approx. 4,000 years), and the MRCA of N and O should have lived only about 3,500 years after the Ust-Ishim specimen or the MRCA of that Telugu "X" person's lineage and NO-M214. I would say this is one of the shortest branch lengths between any pair of well-known nodes of the phylogenetic tree, and it illustrates how ephemeral the connection between haplogroups N and O actually is. I think it would almost be better for the general understanding if the M214 SNP had not been discovered so early and people only knew of haplogroups N and O as individual subclades of K-M9 (or even F-M89). The M214 SNP ranks up there with the likes of F929 (HIJK) and M523 (IJK) among the most delusive SNPs. This is qualitatively different from the likes of QR-M45, which indicates a quite significant exclusive relationship between haplogroups Q and R (approx. three times as significant as the relationship between N and O, or roughly 12,000 years of shared ancestry subsequent to the MRCA of K2a and K2b). In fact, the branch length between GHIJK and NO is only about 8,000 years (or roughly somewhere between 2,000 and 14,000 years considering the 95% confidence intervals), so the closeness of the relationship between N and O vis-a-vis haplogroup G is probably less than the closeness of the relationship between Q and R vis-a-vis haplogroup N or haplogroup O.

If two haplogroups related to the degree to which Q and R are related to each other may have expanded mainly among the ancestors of populations as different as modern Native Americans and modern Europeans, then N and O could have expanded among the ancestors of populations even more different than modern Native Americans and modern Europeans.

This leads us to the second issue: from where and from what sort of population has N-M231 spread since its emergence from a bottleneck approximately 22,000 to 23,500 YBP? If modern representatives of haplogroup N were mostly found only in one sort of population (e.g. Uralics), then it would be relatively uncontroversial to infer that haplogroup N has spread from a proto-Uralic sort of people living in whatever region proto-Uralic-type people are supposed to have originated. However, Haplogroup N is in fact much more common among modern East Asians than haplogroup Q is common among modern Europeans. So, although it is theoretically plausible that haplogroup N and haplogroup O might have developed and expanded from populations more different from each other than modern Europeans are different from modern Native Americans, the actual distribution shows both haplogroups, N and O, to be quite common among modern East Asians. What does this mean? Are modern East Asians hybrids between some sort of Uralic-type population and a different East Asian-type population? That might be an unpopular idea, but perhaps it should be considered.

If the presence of both N and O among modern East Asians were ascribable solely to long-term (on the order of 40,000 years!) maintenance of a large effective population size of a single East Asian meta-population, then I think we should not expect to observe such a great difference between the MRCA of O-M175 on the one hand (approx. 34,000 to 38,000 YBP) and the MRCA of N-M231 on the other (approx. 22,000 to 23,500 YBP). Perhaps there were at least two distinct populations in Palaeolithic East Asia, with the haplogroup O population being more successful than the haplogroup N population. Alternatively, perhaps only haplogroup O (or only haplogroup N) is really native to East Asia, and the other haplogroup has spread over the region relatively recently (probably from Siberia if haplogroup N is invasive or from Southeast Asia if haplogroup O is invasive).

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3441-Haplogroup-N-Zone-of-Origin-amp-Early-Dispersals-split/page7

[Proto-Shaman]

contra question: why hp R-carrier Mal'ta boy was more or less Mongoloid 24.000 years ago? :fponder:

so the answer is neither nor.

[Abdelnour]

Hmmm...depends how old Haplogroup N is and when the first mongoloid skull shape first appeared.

Then again, this raises the question whether skull shape is genetics or a cause from adapting to the environment.