How would you feel if...

[Insuperable]

you find out on 23andme or on any similar service that the ancestors of your parents do not belong to a certain ethnicity you thought you are part of but that they were Croatized, Germanicized, Russified....?



To explain shortly
On 23andme I found out that I am the most similar with Montenegrins, East Herzegovinians (Serbs) and Serbs from Serbia. I am a Croat from a little shit hole called (Western) Herzegovina. I found luckily for me (or not) a Croatian guy from Herzegovina on 23adnme and we were different, him having the average Croatian score and me not scratching the results which are even atypical.
I saw data from 3 more Croats from B & H and I am again the atypical one.
Using 23andme tool "Compare genes" I can see that Montenegrins and one Serb so far in my relative list are among my highest match having highest percentile of shared genome. I asked my mom to explain (my dad is not alive) the results and she so blatantly told me that her family from father's side came from Boka Kotorska (Montenegro). Her mother's surname is present in Eastern Herzegovina. I share my paternal haplogroup with 2 Montenegrins in my relatives who are among my highest match in "Compare genes" tool so I wonder what would be my father's story. I after analyzing all this and accepting truth had some "breakdowns" and I go nuts (because they have more Neolithic ancestry and finding Serb ancestry by a Croatian and vice versa is like Hitler finding Jewish ancestry. We are not like Scandinavians when Swede finding Norwegian ancestry is just another day in paradise:D) than I calm down since it is not easy for me accepting that I am Croatized (or mostly) and not being similar with my countrymen (at least so far from what I have seen) and than I get breakdown again and so on so my mother is now of course saying she was only joking about what she said.

I am really interested what would Dilberth, Rastko, Slingshot and Duke say about me being Croat or not.

[Jackson]

I can't remember if you did or not.. but have you used the 3rd party tools on GEDmatch? You should all of the admixture tools on there and look for the results that are most consistent across multiple calculators, to confirm what 23&me has showed. Although the website is down atm (or some parts of it) so you might have to wait a day or two.

[Damião de Góis]

I would be shocked...

You compared yourself to 4 other croatians? That's not enough, you need to share with more.

[kabeiros]

you find out on 23andme or on any similar service that the ancestors of your parents do not belong to a certain ethnicity you thought you are part of but that they were Croatized, Germanicized, Russified....? Solin, ethnicities/nationalities are not solely based on genes but mostly on culture/tradition. Therefore you are 100% Croat IMO, being close to neighbor people doesn't change anything



I after analyzing all this and accepting truth had some "breakdowns" and I go nuts (because they have more Neolithic ancestry Do you consider neolithic ancestry inferrior to mesolithic and if yes, why? Neolithic ancestry means that you descend from the people who made one of the most important discoveries of humanity, or as the Bible calls them, you are a descendant of ''Cainim'' :)

[Insuperable]

I can't remember if you did or not.. but have you used the 3rd party tools on GEDmatch? You should all of the admixture tools on there and look for the results that are most consistent across multiple calculators, to confirm what 23&me has showed. Although the website is down atm (or some parts of it) so you might have to wait a day or two.


I checked of course. Not all of them have samples from Croatia. I think that MDLP has and perhaps one more.
MDLP has Croatian samples and I get the closest to Macedonians. That is what I am saying. :)
On that particular calculator I can not remember I got 30% Croatian + something else. I think it was Bulgarian or something like.
On those where Croatian samples are present (or at least that is what I think) I get Romanian as the closest match + something like 10% Ireland and related combinations.

The point is that I never saw any Croatian coming up and when it did it could be barely called Croatian.


I would be shocked...

You compared yourself to 4 other croatians? That's not enough, you need to share with more.

I am a Croat from Herzegovina. There is like 200-250 000 of us. I luckily for me find a Croatian guy from Herzegovina and his results differ from mine and I mean like really differ. Others three Bosnian Croats I found in the link below. That Croat had if I remember correctly distances similar to Croatian average.

I forgot what were my "old" distances (I think my were 67.77 Northern European, the same for Southern and 67.23 or 67.24 for ME and I overall scores Southern. So what is the chance me out of 33 of them scoring Southern and they score Northern no matter if those designation do not mean much) before Ancestry Composition but I think that they were the most similar to a guy under Cro33 designation. Out of 33 samples once you play with numbers you could see that perhaps 3 Croats our of 33 would be similar to me. Id say that they are Vlachs like me more so than Croats proper.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhnZkF3SRZ_JdEUwTE1MMUpjcGgtbEh2Y0trV3ZjZ %203c&hl=en#gid=0




Solin, ethnicities/nationalities are not solely based on genes but mostly on culture/tradition. Therefore you are 100% Croat IMO, being close to neighbor people doesn't change anything

Two Greeks on chatbox several hourse ago said the same and yet you wonder why people still discuss "Are modern Greeks....".
P.S. Yes I believe that modern Greeks are mostly descendents of the ancient Greeks.



Do you consider neolithic ancestry inferrior to mesolithic and if yes, why? Neolithic ancestry means that you descend from the people who made one of the most important discoveries of humanity, or as the Bible calls them, you are a descendant of ''Cainim'' :)

If you think that elevated SW Asian and WA scores are superior we do not have much to talk about.

[Pallantides]

I had a nervous breakdown when I found out I was a Norwegianized Swede.

[Alenka]

edit:
Difference between his (Croatian average) and mine shown below . On the link of genetic distances one could assume small difference but it is not so small especially if it indicates totally foreign ancestry.
Which region is the first result (Croatian average) from?

[kabeiros]

Two Greeks on chatbox several hours ago said the same and yet you wonder why people still discuss "Are modern Greeks....".
P.S. Yes I believe that modern Greeks are mostly descendents of the ancient Greeks.. Greeks are and have always been an ethnos. Ethnos derives from the ancient Greek word ''ethos'' which means custom habbit not genealogy. By the way, it is impossible to find an ancient people who is genetically 100% pure, the more ancient the nation the less possibility for purity




If you think that elevated SW Asian and WA scores are superior we do not have much to talk about. If you think that WA and SWA scores make someone inferrior, we do not have much to talk about

[Damião de Góis]

edit:
Difference between his (Croatian average) and mine shown below . On the link of genetic distances one could assume small difference but it is not so small especially if it indicates totally foreign ancestry.


Are you aware that this changes whether if people filled their ancestry info or not?

[alb0zfinest]

I knew that was a reason why Solin was so anti Albanian :D

[Insuperable]

I had a nervous breakdown when I found out I was a Norwegianized Swede.

:) You will still remain ultra low on Neo genes;) and I guess situation between Swedes and Norwegians and Serbs and Croats is not quite the same.



Which region is the first result (Croatian average) from?

As I have said from the same region as mine, Western Herzegovina.


Are you aware that this changes whether if people filled their ancestry info or not?

Yes but it seems it is irrelevant since I have seen scores of Croats and other Balkan people on MDLP for example.

[Insuperable]

I knew that was a reason why Solin was so anti Albanian :D

F*cking Avars and other Turkics for bringing us (Slavic migrations) to this shit hole called Balkans.

[Jackson]

If i found out i was Irish or French or something i would be surprised but i'd get used to it. Would be unhealthy to worry about it. Would be an interesting conversation starter - when talking with other nerds that is. :D

[alb0zfinest]

F*cking Avars and other Turkics for bringing us (Slavic migrations) to this shit hole called Balkans.

Im not going to lie, It would've been so much better without you.

[kabeiros]

F*cking Avars and other Turkics for bringing us (Slavic migrations) to this shit hole called Balkans.
I will probably ruin your fantasy world but the fact is that the Balkans became a shit hole because of the Turko-Slavic migrations

[Corvus]

I would not have a problem with it.
Culture is more important than genes.
Most people in Austria are genetical mesh ups anyway

[Illancha]

By the way, it is impossible to find an ancient people who is genetically 100% pure, the more ancient the nation the less possibility for purity
Not impossible and I am living proof of it. The reason is that Chechens, which have existed since 4000BC were completely isolated up in the mountains from the outside world until late 17th century. However it is certainly extremely unlikely.


F*cking Avars and other Turkics for bringing us (Slavic migrations) to this shit hole called Balkans.
Avars? You mean the Avars of Dagestan?
Never heard of them getting involved in deporting nations before?
Can you send me something I can read about the subject?

[Illancha]

Also I would like to add that in reality it doesn't really matter what your genetic make up is because what defines you is the way you live and what sort of culture, values and traditions you follow. I mean as long as there isn't a massive and obvious physical difference then you can live your life accordingly.

For Chechens nowadays it really matters that someone is completely Chechen genetically, but they forget that in the past a Chechen was not a person who lived in Chechnya with Chechen genes and background. A Chechen was a person who lived their life according to the Noxchalla, means 'Chechen-ness' or 'being Chechen' in English, which is our code of honour and system of moral values.

[Corvus]

Also I would like to add that in reality it doesn't really matter what your genetic make up is because what defines you is the way you live and what sort of culture, values and traditions you follow. I mean as long as there isn't a massive and obvious physical difference then you can live your life accordingly.

Thats a good point. I also came to the conclusion that genetics are overrated.
It is intresting from a scientific point of view and can expanden your horizon but it should not be regarded as the ultimate unifying factor
In most European country the population is heterogenous due to various influences. Your traditions, language and habits are the deciding factors which determine where you belong to.

[Lena]

I would not have a problem with it.
Culture is more important than genes.
Most people in Austria are genetical mesh ups anyway

The prob is that he found out he has some Serbian ancestry and let's say that most (not all) Croats hate us by default ;( .

[Sisak]

If i was in your position i wouldn't care about blood.

[Insuperable]

The prob is that he found out he has some Serbian ancestry and let's say that most (not all) Croats hate us by default ;( .

More like dislike than hate

[Linet]

Well...i would care about blood :ohwell:
I would never stop loving :love0031: the country i thought i was from but...blood counts and how i look like and my tendencies and character are my genes....

[Partizan]

I would not care so much, I am not an ethnic nationalist. I wouldn't care too much. My pan-Turkist views would not change either since culture, language, feeling and loyality are important things for me.

[Lena]

More like dislike than hate

I know, hate is a too strong word which applies only to very few extreme haters on both sides.
On the other hand, I have some Hungarian ancestry and it's not that we're in super good standing with Hungarians, does that makes me less of a Serb or less of a patriot? I don't think so... :)

Ko je još našao zid krečen u belo za zanimljiv :eyes ?

:wink

[Rastko]

Sorry,I can't accept you. You know,one drop rule .

Jokes aside, it concerns me more your hate for our lands. I mean saying such stuff about Herzegovina automatically excludes you from my view of a true Croat.

[Sikeliot]

If you are upset about being more Neolithic than you thought.. what would you prefer: being more related to Assyrians, Babylonians, and Phoenicians who had civilization, or more related to Northern Europeans who were living in caves?

[Insuperable]

Sorry,I can't accept you. You know,one drop rule .

Jokes aside, it concerns me more your hate for our lands. I mean saying such stuff about Herzegovina automatically excludes you from my view of a true Croat.

Never said anything about Croatia, but only about Herzegovina and I stick to it.
Being self critical (even extreme) does not mean anything anyway.


If you are upset about being more Neolithic than you thought.. what would you prefer: being more related to Assyrians, Babylonians, and Phoenicians who had civilization, or more related to Northern Europeans who were living in caves?

Nobody cares what happened zillion years ago.

[Duke]

so what, you are a Vlach, and not the only one among us.

I can understand your hate for abanians tho, as a true Vlach and descendt of acroding to your geographic genetic position Dardanians, you must hate these non Euro folk claiming your heritage :D

[blabla]

Oh, that day in life of average Croat...when he finds out that he is Serb. Hang on dude.

No, seriously who cares? I dont know how old are you but you must be stupid to let this mess up your head.

[Pallantides]

Imagine if you thought you were a Serb all your life and then found out you were actually an Albanian.

[Panopticon]

Imagine if you thought you were a Serb all your life and then found out you were actually an Albanian.

Have you not heard of the Montenegrin? The life of a Montenegrin is astringent and full of acrid surprises. :D