Poland: why the hate?

[Aunt Hilda]

spending the last few weeks in Lithuania I noticed a lot of resentment for Poles here. this mystifies me for several reasons, for one Poland is probably the most similar country to Lithuania (culturally at least) and the Polish people I know tend to like lithuania. i realise that there are Historical conflicts between the two but why is this still relevant to this day?
any thoughts to why this is happening?

[Kelta]

spending the last few weeks in Lithuania I noticed a lot of resentment for Poles here. this mystifies me for several reasons, for one Poland is probably the most similar country to Lithuania (culturally at least) and the Polish people I know tend to like lithuania. i realise that there are Historical conflicts between the two but why is this still relevant to this day?
any thoughts to why this is happening?
Lots of Polish everywhere in Europe nowadays. People are tired of lowered wages and job competition in stagnating markets. More workers means lower wages and tougher competition for everyone. Welcome to the real world--jobs are important for your survival. Lithuania and Polish have differing languages too -look at the spelling. Lithuanian is Latinized. We are old Prussians too and left Europe for USA due to political oppression. For us there is no Prussia.

[Sikeliot]

They were one country for a hundred years or so.

[Aunt Hilda]

They were one country for a hundred years or so.

Exactly, they have similar cultural practices and the same religion. Obviously the language is different but language can be learned if necessary.

[Lisa]

...

[Artek]

Probably the only one real reason is that Poles generally don't want to assimilate with Lithuanians.

Second reason is more historical : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_War

[Aunt Hilda]

Inside Balto-Slavic disassembly .. Not your Jewish business :(

but the dislike seems to come from one side (and I'm not Jewish, sadly)
this is a little strange since the fundamentals for a great relationship seem to be there

[Aunt Hilda]

Probably the only one real reason is that Poles generally don't want to assimilate with Lithuanians.


Care to elaborate?

[Lisa]

...

[Legion]

Lots of Polish everywhere in Europe nowadays. People are tired of lowered wages and job competition in stagnating markets. More workers means lower wages and tougher competition for everyone. Welcome to the real world--jobs are important for your survival. Lithuania and Polish have differing languages too -look at the spelling. Lithuanian is Latinized. We are old Prussians too and left Europe for USA due to political oppression. For us there is no Prussia.

What do you mean by 'Latinized'? I'm not sure if I read your post correctly.

[Aunt Hilda]

We are old Prussians too and left Europe for USA due to political oppression. For us there is no Prussia.

we have germany, get over it


Poles - gentlemens. Lithuanians slaves ... Hence severe inferiority complex.. :rolleyes:

how are Lithuanians slaves?


What do you mean by 'Latinized'? I'm not sure if I read your post correctly.

I'd love to know that as well. both use the latin alphabet

[Artek]

Care to elaborate?
Poles in Lithuania are fighting for the preservation of an education in Polish language and some other things. At the same time, Lithuanians are terribly aware of being "polonised", so they don't allow them for anything connected with polish language, culture etc.

I'm not so much into this conflict, maybe someone more knowledgeable can write more about that.

[Legion]

I'd love to know that as well. both use the latin alphabet

She could be thinking that -s endings for singular masculine words are a Latin exclusive feature. an Indo-European rule that Latin, Greek, and Baltic languages preserved, but Slavic didn't. Lithuanian can remind someone of Latin in that way.

[Mans not hot]

I realise that there are Historical conflicts between the two but why is this still relevant to this day?
Because Poles are still a huge minority there.

Anyway, Lithuanian revival has been built upon denying any Polish influence on the country (and the influence was once immense) - that's why they even accepted Czech orthography and not Polish one to write their language (that's why they don't have a 'w' letter but 'v' instead and some other Czech features) - simply speakings Lithuanian intellectual elites since the time of their revival were anti Polish - they feared Polish culture would completely assimilate Lithuanians (political Lithuanian elites had been voluntarily polonised before in a long process) and that's why Lithuanians dislike Poles because of that.

[Partizan]

Could it be about irredentism? As far as I know Wilno was mostly Polish and Jewish populated in all censuses until 1959. Some Poles could view Wilno as a somewhat "lost land".

[Mans not hot]

Some Poles could view Wilno as a somewhat "lost land".
Yes, South Lithuania jest Polska. :coffee:

[Aunt Hilda]

Because Poles are still a huge minority there.

Anyway, Lithuanian revival has been built upon denying any Polish influence on the country (and the influence was once immense) - that's why they even accepted Czech orthography and not Polish one to write their language (that's why they don't have a 'w' letter but 'v' instead and some other Czech features) - simply speakings Lithuanian intellectual elites since the time of their revival were anti Polish - they feared Polish culture would completely assimilate Lithuanians (political Lithuanian elites had been voluntarily polonised before in a long process)...

6.6% of lithuanians are of the ethnic Polish background. that's hardly huge

as for Vilnius, yes all taxi drivers are Polish

[Artek]

Could it be about irredentism? As far as I know Wilno was mostly Polish and Jewish populated in all censuses until 1959. Some Poles could view Wilno as a somewhat "lost land".
Some old-fashioned Polish right-wing fundamentalists are still waiting for the moment, when "their" city of Vilnius will be back into the homeland:laugh::laugh:.

But seriously, the topics about Lithuania are concentrated on a linguistic issues.

[Partizan]

Some old-fashioned Polish right-wing fundamentalists are still waiting for the moment, when "their" city of Vilnius will be back into the homeland:laugh::laugh:.

But seriously, the topics about Lithuania are concentrated on a linguistic issues.
Well, to me it does not sound that illogical, I mean the purpose of claim. I do not know why the number of Poles in Wilno dramatically decreased.

Thanks for informing about linguistic issues BTW, I just thought that Poles would view South Lithuania, especially Vilnius as their lost land.

[Hevo]

Yes, South Lithuania jest Polska. :coffee:

Prawdziwy brat:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/RzeczpospolitaII.png

[Aunt Hilda]

Well, to me it does not sound that illogical, I mean the purpose of claim. I do not know why the number of Poles in Wilno dramatically decreased.

Thanks for informing about linguistic issues BTW, I just thought that Poles would view South Lithuania, especially Vilnius as their lost land.

Ethnic makeup of Vilnius region
Lithuanians - 318,510 (59.16%)
Poles - 104,446 (19.40%)
Russians - 77,698 (14.43%)
Belarusians - 22,555 (4.19%)
Ukrainians - 7,159 (1.33%)
Jews - 2,785 (0.52%)
Others less than 0.5% each

and that claim does sound illogical
"The earliest settlements in the area of present day Vilnius appear to be of mesolithic origin. Numerous archaeological findings in different parts of the city prove that the area has been inhabited by peoples of various cultures since the early Middle Ages. Initially a Baltic settlement, later it was also inhabited by Slavs, Jews and Germans. Some historians identify the city with Voruta, a forgotten capital of King Mindaugas." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vilnius)

[Mans not hot]

6.6% of lithuanians are of the ethnic Polish background. that's hardly huge

as for Vilnius, yes all taxi drivers are Polish
More precisely, 6,66 per cent - you now know why the Poles are so hated - they are the embodiment of the beast among God-fearing Lithuanians. ;)

yes all taxi drivers are Polish
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

[Aunt Hilda]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

I'm not even kidding, Every single cab driver I had was polish

[Mans not hot]

I'm not even kidding, Every single cab driver I had was polish
Lol. So, they are like Polish Indian of Lithuania.

[Veneda]

I'm not even kidding, Every single cab driver I had was polish

Of course, they know the city the best ;)

[Aunt Hilda]

Lol. So, they are like Polish Indian of Lithuania.

lol it seem so.

I probably should add that this resentment for poland seems to be a quite recent, at least I never noticed it before


Of course, they know the city the best ;)
lol good one

[Mans not hot]

Of course, they know the city the best ;)
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

[Partizan]

Ethnic makeup of Vilnius region
Lithuanians - 318,510 (59.16%)
Poles - 104,446 (19.40%)
Russians - 77,698 (14.43%)
Belarusians - 22,555 (4.19%)
Ukrainians - 7,159 (1.33%)
Jews - 2,785 (0.52%)
Others less than 0.5% each

and that claim does sound illogical
"The earliest settlements in the area of present day Vilnius appear to be of mesolithic origin. Numerous archaeological findings in different parts of the city prove that the area has been inhabited by peoples of various cultures since the early Middle Ages. Initially a Baltic settlement, later it was also inhabited by Slavs, Jews and Germans. Some historians identify the city with Voruta, a forgotten capital of King Mindaugas." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vilnius)

It is current census. However numbers of Poles recently decreased, just in 1931, 65,9% of population was Polish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilno#Demographics

Seems like Soviet rule changed a lot of things there...

[Aunt Hilda]

It is current census. However numbers of Poles recently decreased, just in 1931, 65,9% of population was Polish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilno#Demographics

Seems like Soviet rule changed a lot of things there...

in 1931 Vilnius was occupied by Poland

[Mans not hot]

Seems like Soviet rule changed a lot of things there...
More likely the fact that borders changed. Haven't you noticed?

[Partizan]

in 1931 Vilnius was occupied by Poland

You can take a look at the rest of censuses. Until Soviet rule, Vilnius was a Polish city with a huge Jewish minority(and even in one census, Jews were majority).

[Aunt Hilda]

You can take a look at the rest of censuses. Until Soviet rule, Vilnius was a Polish city with a huge Jewish minority(and even in one census, Jews were majority).

Sooo, are u saying that Israel has tips on Vilnius?(after all, Vilnius was the Jerusalem of the North)

For most of its History Vilnius was a multicultural city with huge polish influences, why is this relevant today?

let me quote Wikipedia "the city was open to migrants from both East and West. In addition to old citizens, larger Jewish, Orthodox and German communities established themselves in the city. Each group made its contribution to the life of the city, and crafts, trade and science prospered."

[Lisa]

how are Lithuanians slaves?


Lithuania voluntarily unite with Poland .. And this destroyed the Great Lithuania.. Overlords Poles - Lithuanians were peasants and slaves..

[kwp_wp]

in 1931 Vilnius was occupied by Poland

there you have answered your question by yourself :)
that's the point, Lithuanians tend to think your way. when some of Poles think of it like Vilnius belonged then where it should belonged - that's the difference;)

[Artek]

Lithuania voluntarily unite with Poland .. And this destroyed the Great Lithuania.. Overlords Poles - Lithuanians were peasants and slaves..
Lithuania united with Poland, because their nobility wanted to became equal with the Polish one .

Also, they were having huge problems with Muscovites (see reference : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite%E2%80%93Lithuanian_War) and losing their lands.

[Aunt Hilda]

Lithuania voluntarily unite with Poland .. And this destroyed the Great Lithuania.. Overlords Poles - Lithuanians were peasants and slaves..

most people in the commonwealth were peasants and "slaves" including the poles, Only the Noble stood out.
And as far as I know they had to unite with Poland so that they could be baptised. And don't pretend that lithuania had no input into the lives of poles, after all the Polish royal line was based on Lithuanian blood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogaila)

[Roy]

If i had to choose one neighboring with which we have the worst relations (bar Belarus) it would probably be Lithuania. At least in purely political sense and point of view. But in general polish people do not feel any antipathy towards them and there's support for lithuanian minority from Poland. While in Lithuania polish language and culture is literally exterminated by lithuanian government and their ideas about education in polish language, polish organisations, namings and surnames (lithuanization of them ...) For example language has become expelled from many schools, there exists aversion bordering with fear. They have restricted teaching and forced polish people to accept it.

But i can partially understand their reluctance but some of them are hard to withstand, especially some of them from Vilnius and Kaunas are just deplorable maybe they feel still threatend of the loss of their identity.

[Äike]

spending the last few weeks in Lithuania I noticed a lot of resentment for Poles here. this mystifies me for several reasons, for one Poland is probably the most similar country to Lithuania (culturally at least) and the Polish people I know tend to like lithuania.

I completely agree. I see Poles and Lithuanians as 2 culturally and historically very similar Slavic Eastern-European populations, they should get along but they don't. This puzzles me.

[Äike]

spending the last few weeks in Lithuania I noticed a lot of resentment for Poles here. this mystifies me for several reasons, for one Poland is probably the most similar country to Lithuania (culturally at least) and the Polish people I know tend to like lithuania.

I completely agree. I see Poles and Lithuanians as 2 culturally and historically very similar Slavic Eastern-European populations, they should get along but they don't.

[kwp_wp]

Personally I have absolutely nothing against Lithuania and Lithuanians, I even sort of like them. I should say I feel sympathy towards them, maybe because of common history, close location, similar look, etc.
I was always wondering why they are [generaly speaking] not giving this feeeling back? ...
some kind of inferiority complex? IDK

[Mans not hot]

Rozumiem mowę mojego małego siostrzeńca bardziej niż koszmarny angielski Lisy...

[kwp_wp]

back to the poll: I don't feel entitled to answer this question, sorry:)

[RussiaPrussia]

its simple because lithuenia is a small country and poland is very big its 40 million to 3 or so.

Every time someone is getting bigger like economicly or politically he gets hate, just look at russia. Russia isnt hated for their past or some BS it gets hated for being the biggest country in europe. As poland or russia grow economicly in eastern europe they face more hostility.

[Aunt Hilda]

Personally I have absolutely nothing against Lithuania and Lithuanians, I even sort of like them. I should say I feel sympathy towards them, maybe because of common history, close location, similar look, etc.
I was always wondering why they are [generaly speaking] not giving this feeeling back? ...
some kind of inferiority complex? IDK

I've been actually wondering the same thing, It's obvious that in the Commonwealth days Poland dominated and Lithuania was on the receiving end.


I completely agree. I see Poles and Lithuanians as 2 culturally and historically very similar Slavic Eastern-European populations, they should get along but they don't.

Lithuania is a Slavic Eastern-European country? that's news to me

[Mans not hot]

its simple because lithuenia is a small country and poland is very big its 40 million to 3 or so.
More like 30 million.

[Mans not hot]

Lithuania is a Slavic Eastern-European country? that's news to me
Estonia is a Baltic Eastern European country.

P.S. I hope I will get negrep from Karl for this!

[Aunt Hilda]

its simple because lithuenia is a small country and poland is very big its 40 million to 3 or so.

Every time someone is getting bigger like economicly or politically he gets hate, just look at russia. Russia isnt hated for their past or some BS it gets hated for being the biggest country in europe. As poland or russia grow economicly in eastern europe they face more hostility.

I doubt this has anything to do with it. look at their GDP per capita
lithuania $20,088
Poland $20,334 (both lithuania and poland are not doing that well, but simmilar, considering that the 2008 crisis in poland was not as bad as it was in lithuania)

and Russia is disliked because of their aggressive foreign Policy not because it big

[Äike]

Lithuania is a Slavic Eastern-European country? that's news to me

Sorry, that was a typo, I meant Balto-Slavic.


Estonia is a Baltic Eastern European country.

P.S. I hope I will get negrep from Karl for this!

Estonia isn't Baltic nor Eastern-European, Google is your friend. :) Estonia is Finnic and Northern-European.

[Hevo]

Sorry, that was a typo, I meant Balto-Slavic.



Estonia isn't Baltic nor Eastern-European, Google is your friend. :) Estonia is Finnic and Northern-European.

Estonia is a considered as a Baltic state, that's a fact.

[Aunt Hilda]

Sorry, that was a typo, I meant Balto-Slavic.
Estonia isn't Baltic nor Eastern-European, Google is your friend. :) Estonia is Finnic and Northern-European.

So is lithuania http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania)

not the finnic part obviously

[Mans not hot]

Zastanawiam się nad reakcją kiedy ona zobaczy tę groźbę. :laugh:

[Äike]

So is lithuania http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania)

not the finnic part obviously

lulz, Lithuania is culturally completely Eastern-European., they're like the Poles. Their mentality etc. is foreign to us, Northerners. In Estonia, Lithuanians are known as the people who are responsible for over 90% of all car thefts done in Estonia.

[kwp_wp]

...and we're back on track again, from the very first day of a year...
LOL - this discussion on TA is like a boomerang

[Aunt Hilda]

lulz, Lithuania is culturally completely Eastern-European., they're like the Poles. Their mentality etc. is foreign to us, Northerners. In Estonia, Lithuanians are known as the people who are responsible for over 90% of all car thefts done in Estonia.

lol, sweetie nobody in the west or the actual north for that matter) thinks of estonia as northern Europe, you guys are just as poor and and Eastern as poland or russia.

[Accountant]

lol, sweetie nobody in the west thinks of estonia as northern Europe, you guys are just as poor and and Eastern as poland or russia.

Maybe not in the West but many Northerners consider Estonia Nordic.

[Mans not hot]

...and we're back on track again, from the very first day of a year...
LOL - this discussion on TA is like a boomerang
Sądzę że rok 2013 będzie wspaniały. :thumb001::laugh:

[Aunt Hilda]

Maybe not in the West but many Northerners consider Estonia Nordic.

I know quite a few Swedish, danish, Norwegian and even estonian people who would beg to differ

face it when people think of the baltic states they think of Russia and poverty not northern europe. the experts obviously disagree and label all of them as northern (even lithuania)

[Hevo]

Maybe not in the West but many Northerners consider Estonia Nordic.

Kinda weird, because when i write ''Baltic states'' on google i get this:rolleyes::

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/baltic.gif

http://wikitravel.org/upload/shared//thumb/4/4f/Baltic_states_regions_map.png/250px-Baltic_states_regions_map.png

[Mans not hot]

Guys, stop trolling Karl. Estonia is a Finnic Northern European country, deal with it.

[Aunt Hilda]

Guys, stop trolling Karl. Estonia is a Finnic Northern European country, deal with it.

I completely accept that estonia is a northern European Country, I simply add latvia and lithuania to the mix

[Äike]

lol, sweetie nobody in the west or the actual north for that matter) thinks of estonia as northern Europe, you guys are just as poor and and Eastern as poland or russia.

lol what do you know? Historically Estonia and its inhabitants have been Northern-European for the last 6000 years. Estonians and Finns are the native Northerners, we predate most others (like the Scandinavians) here. Estonia has been "Western" since 1227.

Also, Estonia is like 2 times richer than Russia and 30% richer than Lithuania/Latvia.


I completely accept that estonia is a northern European Country, I simply add latvia and lithuania to the mix

lol, they're different from us. They have different mentality, heritage/ancestry and culture. Geographically maybe, culturally not.

[Aunt Hilda]

anyway back to the actual topic,

I found this on wikipedia "Poland and Lithuania both perceived the city as their own. The League of Nations became involved in the subsequent dispute between the two countries. The League-brokered the Suwałki Agreement on 7 October 1920. Although neither Vilnius or the surrounding region was explicitly addressed in the agreement, numerous historians have described the agreement as allotting Vilnius to Lithuania."

[Mans not hot]

I completely accept that estonia is a northern European Country, I simply add latvia and lithuania to the mix
You look cute if that's you in the avatar, even with moustace and visible beard.:eyes

[Aunt Hilda]

lol what do you know? Historically Estonia and its inhabitants have been Northern-European for the last 6000 years. Estonians and Finns are the native Northerners, we predate most others (like the Scandinavians) here. Estonia has been "Western" since 1227.

Also, Estonia is like 2 times richer than Russia and 30% richer than Lithuania/Latvia.


lol reality check,
estonia - Total $27.313 billion
- Per capita $21,059

lithuania - Total $64.318 billion
- Per capita $20,088
not that different, or rich for that matter

russia - Total $3.015 trillion
- Per capita $21,246 (will you look at that, russians are richer then estonians, lolz)


They have different mentality, heritage/ancestry and culture. Geographically maybe, culturally not.

I've been to estonia, you're not that different, when it comes to the mentality of the nation

and when it comes to culture, the experts have spoken, both are northern european

[Accountant]

face it when people think of the baltic states they think of Russia and poverty not northern europe. the experts obviously disagree and label all of them as northern (even lithuania)

What you wrote is right, but Estonians still aren't Baltic...


The Balts or Baltic peoples are an Indo-European ethnic-linguistic group who speak the Baltic languages, a branch of the Indo-European language family

Estonians speak a Finnic language.


Kinda weird, because when i write ''Baltic states'' on google i get this:rolleyes::

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/baltic.gif

http://wikitravel.org/upload/shared//thumb/4/4f/Baltic_states_regions_map.png/250px-Baltic_states_regions_map.png

And this shows what Northerners think of Estonia? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Mans not hot]

lol what do you know? Historically Estonia and its inhabitants have been Northern-European for the last 6000 years. Estonians and Finns are the native Northerners, we predate most others (like the Scandinavians) here. Estonia has been "Western" since 1227.

Also, Estonia is like 2 times richer than Russia and 30% richer than Lithuania/Latvia.



lol, they're different from us. They have different mentality, heritage/ancestry and culture. Geographically maybe, culturally not.
All your posts is about ''Estonians are not Baltic nor Slavic, but Finnic'', ''Estonia is richer than most East Euro countries'', ''Estonia is North Europe, not Eastern Europe'', etc''. I mean, seriously, its getting tiresome and childish. Go dance with crazy Russians somewhere instead of making another off topic about Estonia and Estonians, especially on this thread. :bored:

[Aunt Hilda]

What you wrote is right, but Estonians still aren't Baltic...



Estonians speak a Finnic language.



And this shows what Northerners think of Estonia? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

get a grip, son. The "baltic" states, is a collective term for Estonia, latvia and lithuania. It's not a reference to the language of the states

[Aunt Hilda]

anyway back to the actual topic,

I found this on wikipedia "Poland and Lithuania both perceived the city as their own. The League of Nations became involved in the subsequent dispute between the two countries. The League-brokered the Suwałki Agreement on 7 October 1920. Although neither Vilnius or the surrounding region was explicitly addressed in the agreement, numerous historians have described the agreement as allotting Vilnius to Lithuania."

back to topic

[Accountant]

get a grip, son. The "baltic" states, is a collective term for Estonia, latvia and lithuania. It's not a reference to the language of the states

My point was that Estonia should be considered a Nordic country because it's so different from the Baltic countries while being quite similar to Finland. Being located south of the Sea doesn't make their population Baltic.

[Aunt Hilda]

My point was that Estonia should be considered a Nordic country because it's so different from the Baltic countries while being quite similar to Finland. Being located south of the Sea doesn't make their population Baltic.

20th century history makes this quite difficult, besides isn't northern enough

[Accountant]

20th century history makes this quite difficult, besides isn't northern enough

And the other 59 centuries make it very possible. What is northern enough then? Where is the magical line?

[Aunt Hilda]

And the other 59 centuries make it very possible. What is northern enough then?


disagree, so does most of the west and the scandinavian countries disagree as well


Where is the magical line?

its all about the money

[Äike]

its all about the money

Estonia has a higher HDI (Human development index, you probably don't know this term) than Portugal. HDI shows income, healthcare quality, education, etc.

[Aunt Hilda]

Estonia has a higher HDI (Human development index, you probably don't know this term) than Portugal. HDI shows income, healthcare quality, education, etc.

yes, and as we know Portugal is the centre of the west(not a country in crisis at all)

if this is the best you can do, well thats just sad.

(im sure estonia is gonna be better off then portugal in 20 years or so but so will lithuania and latvia)

[Veneda]

This thread is not about Estonia or Portugal, but about Polish-Lithuanian relationships, so stick to the thread, please.

[Aunt Hilda]

This thread is not about Estonia or Portugal, but about Polish-Lithuanian relationships, so stick to the thread, please.

please do, the inferiority complex of Karl is annoying :D

[Veneda]

please do, the inferiority complex of Karl is annoying :D

We are talking about Polish-Lithuanian future, not about other subjects.

[Aunt Hilda]

We are talking about Polish-Lithuanian future, not about other subjects.



I found this on wikipedia "Poland and Lithuania both perceived the city as their own. The League of Nations became involved in the subsequent dispute between the two countries. The League-brokered the Suwałki Agreement on 7 October 1920. Although neither Vilnius or the surrounding region was explicitly addressed in the agreement, numerous historians have described the agreement as allotting Vilnius to Lithuania."

its sad to see history repeat itself

[Veneda]

I found this on wikipedia "Poland and Lithuania both perceived the city as their own. The League of Nations became involved in the subsequent dispute between the two countries. The League-brokered the Suwałki Agreement on 7 October 1920. Although neither Vilnius or the surrounding region was explicitly addressed in the agreement, numerous historians have described the agreement as allotting Vilnius to Lithuania."

its sad to see history repeat itself

You are free to discuss the subject :)

[Lisa]

Also, Estonia is like 2 times richer than Russia and 30% richer than Lithuania/Latvia.


Are you kidding? 30%? Russia ranks 6th in the world ... Despite fact that Russia were robbed by Americans in the 90s ...

[Aunt Hilda]

You are free to discuss the subject :)

well the way I see it, some polish people think of Vilnius as a polish city, since the City has a lot of polish influences and used to have a lot of poles, to a lesser extent it still does.

And lithuanians see this as an attack on their history and culture, since Vilnius was founded by lithuanians and was ruled by them for most of its history.
But one has to consider that the City itself was always multicultural, with very strong contributions from the Jewish minority as well.

[Útrám]

I'd stop hating both groups, if you'd just return my blue-ray player.

[Aunt Hilda]

I'd stop hating both groups, if you'd just return my blue-ray player.

huh? come again ....

[Veneda]

well the way I see it, some polish people think of Vilnius as a polish city, since the City has a lot of polish influences and used to have a lot of poles, to a lesser extent it still does.

And lithuanians see this as an attack on their history and culture, since Vilnius was founded by lithuanians and was ruled by them for most of its history.
But one has to consider that the City itself was always multicultural, with very strong contributions from the Jewish minority as well.

This is free speech forum, so you can obtain opinions from both sides. Treat this an advantage.

[Aunt Hilda]

This is free speech forum, so you can obtain opinions from both sides. Treat this an advantage.
thats what i'm waiting for since I'm not a member of both groups I don't think Its my place to judge

[Lisa]

thats what i'm waiting for since I'm not a member of both groups I don't think Its my place to judge

You're a troll - Zmey Gorynych - probably Jew :( ...

[Aunt Hilda]

You're a troll - Zmey Gorynych - probably Jew :bored: ...

Is that supposed to be an insult? would love to be jewish but i'm not

[Aunt Hilda]

anybody actually care to contribute to the topic

[Skomand]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgfb5wbep_Y

Lithuanians making fun of Polish people

[Ants]

lol, sweetie nobody in the west or the actual north for that matter) thinks of estonia as northern Europe, you guys are just as poor and and Eastern as poland or russia.

Why do you think it matters on the big picture what "the west" (whatever you mean by that, probably UK) thinks? It would be just another pointless opinion.

[Aunt Hilda]

Why do you think it matters on the big picture what "the west" (whatever you mean by that, probably UK) thinks? It would be just another pointless opinion.

you know what the west is.
and as far as I know all 3 of them have a pro-western foreign policy. thus, making is somewhat relevant. (to the baltic states not the actual topic)

Quite frankly, Karls opinions, and eagerness to slam latvia and lithuania seems somewhat disrespectful to me. none of us are experts on estonian or lithuanian culture and history, we are in no position to say where the baltic states are but we are free to share out perspectives

[RussiaPrussia]

So is lithuania http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania)

not the finnic part obviously

russia is also northern european

[Aunt Hilda]

russia is also northern european

not according to the map, or ever in history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe) (apart the northern sections of European Russia) i think russia is too big for that

[arcticwolf]

Not this shit again. There are Poles who hate Lithuania, and Lithuanians who hate Poles. That exists everywhere with any two distinct groups even within the same nationality. Big fucking deal.

The fact is we were one for centuries, fought the same enemies, bled for the same values, and the same country, etc. A lot of us have relatives on both sides, including me.

This shit is beyond stupid. I don't think most Lithuanians hate Poles, as I know most Poles don't hate Lithuanians.

Me personally, I love Lithuanians, they are my people just like Poles are.

You stupid haters deal with it! :D

[Hevo]

What you wrote is right, but Estonians still aren't Baltic...



Estonians speak a Finnic language.



And this shows what Northerners think of Estonia? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Do i really need to show ''the nordic maps'' dude?:picard2: Estonia is not a nordic country, but considered as a baltic country worldwide. Nordic maps:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Nordic_countries.GIF

http://wdae.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/nordiccountries.jpg

[sevruk]

All that can be modern Balts and Estonians - hate, it seems to them the meaning of life

[Accountant]

Do i really need to show ''the nordic maps'' dude?:picard2: Estonia is not a nordic country, but considered as a baltic country worldwide. Nordic maps:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Nordic_countries.GIF

http://wdae.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/nordiccountries.jpg

Maybe you should scroll back and see what my original post was about?

Actually here, let me help you:


lol, sweetie nobody in the west thinks of estonia as northern Europe, you guys are just as poor and and Eastern as poland or russia.

Maybe not in the West but many Northerners consider Estonia Nordic.

Estonia is considered a Baltic country, YES, but I (and many others I know, even outside of Estonia) think it is more like a Nordic country.

-------------------------

Since this topic isn't going anywhere I might as well finish my off topic message I so eagerly wanted to post:



its all about the money

Wealth shouldn't have anything to do with this. Language and culture separate Finnics (Finns & Estonians) and Baltics (Latvians & Lithuanians) from each other. You also keep contradicting yourself, just previously Estonia wasn't Northern enough for you but now it's all about money?

[Aunt Hilda]

Wealth shouldn't have anything to do with this. Language and culture separate Finnics (Finns & Estonians) and Baltics (Latvians & Lithuanians) from each other. You also keep contradicting yourself, just previously Estonia wasn't Northern enough for you but now it's all about money?

quite the contrary, I've said that in my opinion Estonia is a northern european country, but so is latvia and lithuania.
and for most people wealth is a factor, even a lot of estonians agree.

[Accountant]

quite the contrary, I've said that in my opinion Estonia is a northern european country, but so is latvia and lithuania.
and for most people wealth is a factor, even a lot of estonians agree.

So what was this about:


20th century history makes this quite difficult, besides isn't northern enough

[Aunt Hilda]

20th century history makes this quite difficult, besides isn't northern enough?



I was talking about public opinion, not my own. This maybe be everything to do with the snobbery and stupidity of my countrymen and nothing to do with Estonians. but its still the opinion most people seem to have.

"Isn't northern enough" as in isn't being northern European enough, why the need to be part of the nordic countries?

[Mans not hot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgfb5wbep_Y

Lithuanians making fun of Polish people
:picard1:

I hardly find that video funny.

[Virtuous]

Poland?

You mean Popeland?

[Aunt Hilda]

:picard1:

I hardly find that video funny.

I didn't understand a thing in that Video, care to elaborate what they were saying? ;)

[sevruk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgfb5wbep_Y

Lithuanians making fun of Polish people
they're likely talking Russian is not Polish

I heard that in Estonia started the show on TV ridicules Russian.
This seems a complex of small nations to large.

[Mans not hot]

I heard that in Estonia started the show on TV ridicules Russian.
This seems a complex of small nations to large.
RusssiaPrussia got a point, I suppose:

its simple because lithuenia is a small country and poland is very big its 40 million to 3 or so.

Every time someone is getting bigger like economicly or politically he gets hate, just look at russia. Russia isnt hated for their past or some BS it gets hated for being the biggest country in europe. As poland or russia grow economicly in eastern europe they face more hostility.
Very true. Similar to Ireland and UK (England).

[Aunt Hilda]

RusssiaPrussia got a point, I suppose:

Very true. Similar to Ireland and UK (England).

To me this seems more like Scotland And England. The English tend to like Scotland, yet the scots don't share the same feelings. This is purely because of Historical reasons.
Yet, the polish-lithuanian thing seems to be Linguistic not Historical

[kwp_wp]

:picard1:

I hardly find that video funny.

why???
this is great stuff, ofc for fun
btw, they are speaking Polish on that video

[member]

It's not related to the fact that Poland is a big country. A proof: Lithuania in early 20th c. decided that they do not want any lands that were ethnographically non Lithuanian. The territory was bigger than present day Lithuania. I've read that it also included places were only old people still spoke Lithuanian as Lithuanian was the original language of these ethnographic regions.
Lithuanians are proud of GDL, but we do not have dreams living in a multicultural state where majority of it's inhabitants would be non Lithuanian as in GDL.


Migla, This Polish-Lithuanian conflict generated many articles in Lithuanian media. I'm sure you would be able to find something if you followed them. But as I understand your Lithuanian is not very good.

I'll later make another post where I'll try to answer your OP question since no one was able to provide a decent explanation...

[Albion]

Because some Polish nationalists claim Vilnius / Wilno.

[Arthas]

Because Polish people take all the jobs. They are the Mexicans of Europe.

[Äike]

please do, the inferiority complex of Karl is annoying :D

Go to school and educate yourself, then start talking about complexes. You're ignorant and rude.

[Aunt Hilda]

Go to school and educate yourself, then start talking about complexes. You're ignorant and rude.

If you actually paid attention to what I said, you would have noticed that I agree with the fact that Estonia is in northern Europe. It is you who is ignorant, claiming that the Lithuanian and polish mentality is completely foreign to Estonians, fact of the matter is you guys have a similar mentality. When it comes to history and culture, the experts have spoken, all the baltic states are Northern European.

[Äike]

It is you who is ignorant, claiming that the Lithuanian and polish mentality is completely foreign to Estonians, fact of the matter is you guys have a similar mentality.

Wtf are you talking about? We are already historically very different. They're Catholic and religious while the Estonians (like other Nordics) are Lutheran and the least religious people in the world.

I study history and I have to know these things, while you're some random brat making things up.

I have nothing else to say as I am correct, I know so, as I have studied these topics recently, period.

[Artek]

Go to school and educate yourself, then start talking about complexes. You're ignorant and rude.
http://www.alexanderandpearl.co.uk/ekmps/shops/aandp/images/gigi-french-silver-mirror-7543-p.jpg

[Ants]

It is you who is ignorant, claiming that the Lithuanian and polish mentality is completely foreign to Estonians, fact of the matter is you guys have a similar mentality.

Just out of curiosity, how would you know this? Do you assume this would be true, or did some Lithuanians tell you this?

[Aunt Hilda]

Just out of curiosity, how would you know this? Do you assume this would be true, or did some Lithuanians tell you this?
I've been to estonia, and know quite a few Estonians and I have to say that the mentality of both nations is not that different, Estonians tend to be better at English, and have a slight more scandinavian work ethic, while the Lithuanian one is slightly more german(a lot of emphasis on punctuality)
And when It comes to History and culture of these two nations. Of course I'm not an expert (and when It comes to lithuania I doubt Karl is as well) this is why I'm basing my opinion of what experts agree on, all of the baltic states are northern European.

[Äike]

If you actually paid attention to what I said, you would have noticed that I agree with the fact that Estonia is in northern Europe. It is you who is ignorant, claiming that the Lithuanian and polish mentality is completely foreign to Estonians, fact of the matter is you guys have a similar mentality. When it comes to history and culture, the experts have spoken, all the baltic states are Northern European.

Just mentioning:

I just remembered reading an article some months ago about an Estonian woman who moved to Poland and the culture shock she had and how she overcome it, as Poland was quite foreign for an Estonian.

If we would be "similar" like you claim, this wouldn't happen. But Poles are just some Eastern-european population from our perspective with no ties to us.

[Äike]

And when It comes to History and culture of these two nations. Of course I'm not an expert (and when It comes to lithuania I doubt Karl is as well) this is why I'm basing my opinion of what experts agree on, all of the baltic states are northern European.

Actually I have had to study the history of Latvia and Lithuania to a great extent as they're in the same region as us.

[member]

Just out of curiosity, how would you know this? Do you assume this would be true, or did some Lithuanians tell you this?

It very much depends on what scale you're using. Depending on it Lithuanians can be very close to Estonians or not. (And I'm not talking shit like including differenet continents, even though often seems that Karl talks about Estonia and Lithuania like two different planets.)

[Aunt Hilda]

Just mentioning:

I just remembered reading an article some months ago about an Estonian woman who moved to Poland and the culture shock she had and how she overcome it, as Poland was quite foreign for an Estonian.

If we would be "similar" like you claim, this wouldn't happen. But Poles are just some Eastern-european population from our perspective with no ties to us.

well considering southern Estonia was part of Poland for a while that's ignorance on your part (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Livonia)


Actually I have had to study the history of Latvia and Lithuania to a great extent as they're in the same region as us.
so you admit it, the latter two are in northern europe....finally

and you know what, I've studies greek and roman History as an Undergrad for 2 years, yet I'm not an expert, more importantly, even If I was, would not be more valid then the opinions of the rest of the experts in the field

[Äike]

It very much depends on what scale you're using. Depending on it Lithuanians can be very close to Estonians or not. (And I'm not talking shit like including differenet continents, even though often seems that Karl talks about Estonia and Lithuania like two different planets.)

In my opinion, Lithuania is more similar to Slovakia than it is to Estonia. We are talking about 2 different historical & cultural spheres. Lithuania is 50/50 in the Central/Eastern-European sphere while Estonia is historically in the Nordic sphere (all that Lutheran past, living here for 6000 years as Finnic people etc)

[Mans not hot]

Because Polish people take all the jobs. They are the Mexicans of Europe.
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

[Äike]

well considering southern Estonia was part of Poland for a while that's ignorance on your part (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Livonia)

lol that is such a short period of time as it isn't even talked about quite often, as it isn't much compared to the long-lasting German/Danish/Swedish rules.

This is just classical demagoguery what you're trying to do here.

If the Poles would have had ANY noticeable influence, then southern-Estonia wouldn't be historically 100% Lutheran, they would be Catholic.


so you admit it, the latter two are in northern europe....finally

Geographically of course. Historically/culturally/by mentality, no. Sorry.

[Aunt Hilda]

Geographically of course. Historically/culturally/by mentality, no. Sorry.

got to disagree on this one. When It comes to mentality you are more similar to Lithuania or poland then to Sweden

[member]

Someone should delete these discussions about Nothern Europe and Estonia. We had enough of them anyway...

[Mans not hot]

Someone should delete these discussions about Nothern Europe and Estonia.
Karl's fault.... Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

[Äike]

got to disagree on this one. When It comes to mentality you are more similar to Lithuania or poland then to Sweden

Lithuanians disagree (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16643&highlight=lithuania)

[Mans not hot]

I wish I were a mod...

[member]

they're likely talking Russian is not Polish

I heard that in Estonia started the show on TV ridicules Russian.
This seems a complex of small nations to large.

It's a tv parody show (they usually ridicule local video clips and other tv shows).

Info under the video:

After Valdemar Tomasevski speech on TV. "Where to integrate? Where should we integrate to? We have lived here all the time. [...] It is you who have to integrate in this land, because it was you who came here. Your ancestors have to integrate here, not us. This is our land."

He meant us Lithuanian Poles vs You, Lithuanians. I.e. Lithuanians should integrate there.

This video is a parody of both (imo) Lithuanian fears (polonized Lithuania, hence tv shows iand films in Polish, polonocentric perception of our history, etc.) and the wishes of radical Lithuanian Poles.

You need to understand this existing situation in order to to be able to laugh.

[Aunt Hilda]

Lithuanians disagree (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16643&highlight=lithuania)

"this is all a little far fetched.

No of people employed on average throughout the independence years (rough estimate): 635 000 % of people who are protestants: 14%
So according to really optimistic calculations protestants in the work force form: 88 900, ie a mere 8% of the workforce. Surely a number as low as this should be too low to even be considered to be of any importance. Funnily enough - evidence from local Lutheran churches, indicates a 76 percent decrease in registered confirmations in that faith between 1990 and 2000."

More importantly, in 2008 Poland did not have such a dramatic Economic crash as lithuania, latvia and estonia does that mean that Poland is more northern then the 3? :D

[Äike]

"this is all a little far fetched.

Nope.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/27506220.jpg

[finþaų]

I sort of agree with Karl; Estonia is definitely more Nordic than East European judging by culture, phenotypes, language and to a lesser extent geography. Estonian architecture very much invokes Swedish qualities.

[Geni]

Respect for Estonia...

[Mans not hot]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Estonia_cannot_into_Nordic.jpg

[Aunt Hilda]

Nope.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/27506220.jpg

oh game on, dude, game on...

economically Top investors for lithuania are Sweden (17% of total FDI), Germany (10%) and Denmark (9%). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Lithuania)

culturally the folklore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_mythology)and regional costumes (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46463) seem to have only slight polish influences

historically hanseatic league (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League#Foundation_and_formation)




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Estonia_cannot_into_Nordic.jpg ahh so true

[Hevo]

Estonia is considered a Baltic country, YES, but I (and many others I know, even outside of Estonia) think it is more like a Nordic country.



Source? But it isn't a Nordic country....

[Äike]

oh game on, dude, game on...

economically Top investors for lithuania are Sweden (17% of total FDI), Germany (10%) and Denmark (9%). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Lithuania)

culturally the folklore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_mythology)and regional costumes (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46463) seem to have only slight polish influences

historically hanseatic league (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League#Foundation_and_formation)

Lithuania isn't like Northern-European Estonia, Lithuanians themselves say this (as I showed with that link), they're like the Poles.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/27506220.jpg

[Äike]

Source?

common sense and 6000 years of history?

[finþaų]

Source?

How could he possibly prove a general sentiment of his social circle(s)? In my experience many Swedes and Finns consider Estonia more of a Nordic country than an "East European" one.

[Aunt Hilda]

common sense and 6000 years of history?

wait so estonia is allowed to drag in its prehistory but lithuania isn't, oh the cherry- picking


Lithuania isn't like Northern-European Estonia, Lithuanians themselves say this (as I showed with that link), they're like the Poles.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/27506220.jpg

Obviously they are not identical. as for the article I think most estonians disagree

[ALL]

Respect for Estonia...

A couple of R1a guys technically with the same paternal forefather debating the big differences in each others country:laugh2:

[Hevo]

How could he possibly prove a general sentiment of his social circle(s)? In my experience many Swedes and Finns consider Estonia more of a Nordic country than an "East European" one.

It's not an east-european country indeed, but the baltic states are not considered as east-european countries are they? These 3 countries are considered as baltic, not Nordic that's a fact.

[Geni]

A couple of R1a guys technically with the same paternal forefather debating the big differences in each others country:laugh2:

yes man..they are the same..but here in forum are all crazy..

[Accountant]

It's not an east-european country indeed, but the baltic states are not considered as east-european countries are they? These 3 countries are considered as baltic, not Nordic that's a fact.

That's a debatable fact.

[Aunt Hilda]

That's a debatable fact.

I think the main reason why the Baltic states are not considered to be nordic is for Economic reasons, I'm sure that in 10 years or so they will be there. they already are observers of the Nordic council just give them time.

Of course when it comes to public opinion you will have to wait a bit longer, I mean just 20 years ago they were behind the Iron Curtain, It's very understandable why it would take a little longer to heal the fresh wounds

btw just out of interest what do finns think of the balts?

[sevruk]

common sense and 6000 years of history?

further 5 thousand years ago on the territory of Estonia lived Indo-European tribes Corded Ware Culture, the ancestors of the Balts and Slavs. Learn history

[Äike]

Obviously they are not identical. as for the article I think most estonians disagree

Yes, most, if not all, Estonians disagree with you, as you're wrong.


It's not an east-european country indeed, but the baltic states are not considered as east-european countries are they? These 3 countries are considered as baltic, not Nordic that's a fact.

Estonians aren't Baltic.

Estonians (Estonian: eestlased) are a Finnic people closely related to the Finns and inhabiting, primarily, the country of Estonia. They speak a Finnic language known as Estonian. Although Estonia is traditionally grouped as one of the Baltic countries, Estonians are ethnically and linguistically unrelated to the Baltic peoples of Latvia and Lithuania.

Wikipedia is your friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonians


I think the main reason why the Baltic states are not considered to be nordic is for Economic reasons

We don't consider the Balts to be Nordic, because they are culturally, historically and by their mentality, different from for example, us Estonians/Finns.


btw just out of interest what do finns think of the balts?

About the same as the Estonians. Estonians/Finns have neutral feelings about the Balts, we just don't think about them as we aren't tied to them, thus no negative nor positive feelings.

[Äike]

further 5 thousand years ago on the territory of Estonia lived Indo-European tribes Corded Ware Culture, the ancestors of the Balts and Slavs. Learn history

Estonia has been inhabited by Finnic Estonians since 4000 BC at least, that's before the Indo-Europeans had even split into different groups. We still speak a Finnic language, just like the Finns, as we survived the IE expansion and retained our culture and language.

[Aunt Hilda]

Yes, most, if not all, Estonians disagree with you, as you're wrong.

not in my experience



Estonians aren't Baltic.


the baltic states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states)is not a reference to language its a reference to the baltic sea :picard1:

we already established this, don't be so slow :rolleyes:




About the same as the Estonians. Estonians/Finns have neutral feelings about the Balts, we just don't think about them as we aren't tied to them, thus no negative nor positive feelings.

every single historian I know disagrees with you, so does wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Baltic_states) or are you saying estonians have forgotten the soviet days
:rolleyes: :picard1:

FACE IT you guys Estonians, lats and Liths have a collective Image(I'm speaking from the british, german and even french point of view, I probably should add that most frenchies I know actually think of you guys as northerners I hope that makes you happy :D )

[Accountant]

btw just out of interest what do finns think of the balts?

Not much. Latvians and Lithuanians are as irrelevant to Finns as Belgians or Bulgarians for an example.

Estonians however are quite important to Finns and they are generally well liked.

[sevruk]

Estonia has been inhabited by Finnic Estonians since 4000 BC at least, that's before the Indo-Europeans had even split into different groups. We still speak a Finnic language, just like the Finns, as we survived the IE expansion and retained our culture and language.

People who lived before the coming of people Corded Ware spoke Uralic or paleo-European, but not Finnish. Finnish language arrived in Estonia after the Indo-European

[member]

Explanation. A little history.

Lithuanian religious province was subordinate to Poland, not directly to the Pope. This way Poland gained a lot of religious influence (Polish clerical caste). Unfortunatelly these people weren't tolerant to Lithuanian language. A widely known saying" "God does not understand Pagan speech (Lithuanian)". Being Catholic meant being Polish. People had to pray in Polish, listen to Polish masses, etc. This was especially clear in Eastern Lithuania.

With time Lithuanian nobility got polonized, Polish became the language of Lithuanian nobility. Speaking Polish, having a polonized surname became the signs of belonging to nobility. The role of Lithuanian was really downgraded ("peasant language").

All this led to polonization, belarusiazation. The Tsar introduced russification and forbade Lithuanian press in latin alphabet in order to distract Lithuanians from poles (Polish-Lithuanian uprisings in 30s and 60s were initiated by Poles), but it only strenghtened polonization as people found it easier to read Polish press, Lithuanian press was illegal and less of it reached Eastern Lithuania than that closer to Prussian Lithuania where illegal books were printed. Lithuanian schools were shut, only Russian ones allowed. Eastern Lithuanians went to Polish underground schools.
Belarussian was not as prestigeous as Polish but still more so than Lithuanian and it was mutually intelligible with both Polish and Russian, so it spread also. Catholic Curch of course used this situation.

Actually Lithuanian was so downgrated that people were afraid to speak in open in Lithuanian in some areas.

Later Vilnius got occupied, then Armija Krajowa. It's not a secret that AK actions in Lithuania were paranoic (AK executed some people simply due to their pro-Lithuanian attitues). Happaned that local prisests openly motivated killings. After the WW2 lies about coming AK actions for pro-Lithuanian attitutes were spread. Soviet policy towards polonization was not favourable to Lithuanian speaking people. It's even said it took it to another whole level (Lithuanian schools, libraries fully shut, etc though the same happened during Vilnius occupation and before, but this time it was even worse). Obviously Soviets didn't want to support anything Lithuanian.

(Back to WW1.) Poland treated Vilnius as a part of Poland (and the whole Lithuania actually) as we well know from military conflicts. I've read that perhaps it wasn't even t the amount of Polish speaking people in Lithuania but the fact that Vilnius produced many intellectuals important for Polish history. The same Pilsduski actually hails from Samogitian (Western Lithuanian) nobility. Perhaps it'll be interesting to note that his brother became a Lithuanian nationalist, who signed Lithuanian independence act.

The most extreme polono-centrics unfortunatelly were local polonized Lithuanians (who of course didn't identify as Lithuanian and didn't spoke Lithuanian, perhaps didn't even think they had Lithuanian roots).


So, these polono-centric attidutes in Eastern Lithuania were quite agressive. The party of Lithuanian Poles, led by Waldemar Tomaševski unfortunatelly is a continuation of polono-centrism ("it is you Lithuanians who have to itegrate here"), f.ex. it uses myths created to justify occupation of Vilnius ("Poles inhabited the area since 16 c."). And actively spreads their propaganda about discriminated Lithuanian Poles. While Lithuania is the second country in the world with the highest number of Polsih schools. Polish schools have various privileges over Lithuanian ones, etc.

Tomaševski's, party is connected to Jedinstvo organization (not active anymore) a pro-Soviet tool that was supposed to extinsguish independence movement in Lithuania, it got mainly popular among Slavic speaking Eastern Lithuanians, including Poles. Lithuanians Poles notably participated in strikes against Lithuanian independence in 1991.

Today the nuisance is mainly because of Tomaševski party's nonsenical direction. Their aim aim is simply sucking money. People are mad at this party and occupation of Vilnius in reality. Few know about the history of polonization of non nobility. Modern schoolbooks do not deal with this, it was treated as a taboo in Soviet era. But I felt the need to explain it.

Despite polonization, however, Poles were regarded as a friendly nation in 19th c.

End of lesson.

P.S. my post may not be very consistent because i tried to put many things that I could remember now. I didn't even touch Lithuanian national revival and the "birth" of Lithuanian ethnicity.
This whole issue is just complex and multi-layered.

[Äike]

not in my experience



the baltic states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states)is not a reference to language its a reference to the baltic sea :picard1:

we already established this, don't be so slow :rolleyes:



every single historian I know disagrees with you, so does wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Baltic_states) or are you saying estonians have forgotten the soviet days
:rolleyes: :picard1:

You're a troll, I'm certain now.


People who lived before the coming of people Corded Ware spoke Uralic or paleo-European, but not Finnish. Finnish language arrived in Estonia after the Indo-European

Uralic/Finno-Ugric languages were spoken here before any IE languages, and we still speak the same language, not IE. We predate Indo-Europeans in Europe.

[Hevo]

Estonians aren't Baltic.

Estonians (Estonian: eestlased) are a Finnic people closely related to the Finns and inhabiting, primarily, the country of Estonia. They speak a Finnic language known as Estonian. Although Estonia is traditionally grouped as one of the Baltic countries, Estonians are ethnically and linguistically unrelated to the Baltic peoples of Latvia and Lithuania.

Wikipedia is your friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonians


Well it's considered as a baltic country worldwide and not Nordic as you claim.:rolleyes: Estonians are actually related more to Lavians and Lithuanians than to Fins if you look at the genetics. Indeed wikipedia is your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states

http://wikitravel.org/upload/shared//thumb/4/4f/Baltic_states_regions_map.png/250px-Baltic_states_regions_map.png

[Aunt Hilda]

You're a troll, I'm certain now.


Yes you being incapable of countering my argument makes me a troll (http://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/you-mad-bro.png)lol :rolleyes:
http://www.totalwardrobecare.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/mirror.jpg

you know Karl, the irony in this little argument is that I actually agree with you estonia is A Northern european country I just don't exclude the balts, You on the other hand seem eager to do so, as If being a balt is somehow inferior to being nordic/finnic lol

[Albion]

Uralic/Finno-Ugric languages were spoken here before any IE languages, and we still speak the same language, not IE. We predate Indo-Europeans in Europe.


Finnic languages arrived in the Neolithic from the Urals, IE was present on the Pontic Steppe in Eastern Europe at a similar time. IE spread to Western and Southern Europe, it was already in existence in much of Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Southern Russia).

[RussiaPrussia]

not according to the map, or ever in history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe) (apart the northern sections of European Russia) i think russia is too big for that

youre so hypocritic you say baltics are northern yet russia isnt in your opinion? Saint petersburgh has more people than all your baltic countries together and if it would be a country it would the second most populated northern country only sweden would have more, not to mention the other russian regions like karelia or murmansk.

All the russian regions are way more nordic we are bordering to finland and norway and the artic and the rest of russia is all north asia isnt that nordic enough??

[Aunt Hilda]

youre so hypocritic you say baltics are northern yet russia isnt in your opinion? Saint petersburgh has more people than all your baltic countries together and if it would be a country it would the second most populated northern country only sweden would have more, not to mention the other russian regions like karelia or murmansk.

All the russian regions are way more nordic we are bordering to finland and norway and the artic and the rest of russia is all north asia isnt that nordic enough??

IMHO Russia is simply too big to be included into one part of europe. a big chunk of it is in Asia as well, It just too big to be simply a northern european country. I think the eurasian label is much more suiting for russia and Unique as well :)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Estonia_cannot_into_Nordic.jpg

don't tell me this applies to Russia as well :(

[sevruk]

Uralic/Finno-Ugric languages were spoken here before any IE languages, and we still speak the same language, not IE. We predate Indo-Europeans in Europe.

Uralic / Finno-Ugric people were representatives of the Uralic race, have little to do with which modern Estonians and Finns.
Say thank "Eastern-European Balto-Slavic" (Corded Ware people) for his Caucasoid appearance.

[Mans not hot]

youre so hypocritic you say baltics are northern yet russia isnt in your opinion? Saint petersburgh has more people than all your baltic countries together and if it would be a country it would the second most populated northern country only sweden would have more, not to mention the other russian regions like karelia or murmansk.

All the russian regions are way more nordic we are bordering to finland and norway and the artic and the rest of russia is all north asia isnt that nordic enough??
http://static.northpole.fi/download/1333292944908348/facepalm.gif

[Äike]

Finnic languages arrived in the Neolithic from the Urals, IE was present on the Pontic Steppe in Eastern Europe at a similar time. IE spread to Western and Southern Europe, it was already in existence in much of Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Southern Russia).

Neolithic? IE languages arrived in the Neoltihic, while we have lived here since the Mesolithic.

I don't know where you have gotten this false information. But finno-Ugrians were represented by the Comb-Ceramic culture and now Google that and get your dates right.

[sevruk]

Here "Nordic" skull people Sredny Stog culture from the south of Ukraine and Russia 6,500 years ago
http://nordic-idea.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/IE_VasilyevkaIII-12.jpg
http://nordic-idea.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/IE_VasilyevkaIII-.jpg
In Estonia, at the time lived representatives Uraloid race :D

[sevruk]

I don't know where you have gotten this false information. But finno-Ugrians were represented by the Comb-Ceramic culture and now Google that and get your dates right.

"The settlements of this culture comb-ceramics are always accompanied by representatives of the Uralic race graves, in the phenotype which exhibit Mongoloid elements"

[sevruk]

Representatives of comb-ceramic culture (Northern proto-Estonians) before the arrival of Eastern European Balto-Slavic
http://rozamira.ucoz.ru/_pu/6/59443793.jpg

[Lisa]

Uralic / Finno-Ugric people were representatives of the Uralic race, have little to do with which modern Estonians and Finns.
Say thank "Eastern-European Balto-Slavic" (Corded Ware people) for his Caucasoid appearance.

on the contrary - it's Balto-Slavs assimilated indigenous Northern Europeans (including Corded Ware people)..

[Äike]

Uralic / Finno-Ugric people were representatives of the Uralic race, have little to do with which modern Estonians and Finns.
Say thank "Eastern-European Balto-Slavic" (Corded Ware people) for his Caucasoid appearance.

You're just another Russian chauvinist...

[sevruk]

You're just another Russian chauvinist...

great counterargument, bravo!

[Accountant]

Representatives of comb-ceramic culture (Northern proto-Estonians) before the arrival of Eastern European Balto-Slavic
http://rozamira.ucoz.ru/_pu/6/59443793.jpg

Your own countrymen were already humiliated in this thread from page 15 on, you can follow the same path if you like:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29944&page=15

[Leshy]

Nordic, non-nordic... What benefits do these words bring to people except gratification? Russia was kind of nordic before 1917. And what!? Oh, little nations-small joys. Being a nordic is nothing. You will not be successful instantly.

[Lisa]

Representatives of comb-ceramic culture (Northern proto-Estonians) before the arrival of Eastern European Balto-Slavic
http://rozamira.ucoz.ru/_pu/6/59443793.jpg

These people are partially mixed with Siberians - Russians too have this ancient admixture.

[sevruk]

Your own countrymen were already humiliated in this thread from page 15 on, you can follow the same path if you like:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29944&page=15

Images of your language-ancestors offend you? then I'm sorry

[ALL]

on the contrary - it's Balto-Slavs assimilated indigenous Northern Europeans (Corded Ware people)..

Poland-Lithuania-Latvia-Estonia

Just which ydna [R1a,I,N],do you suppose was indigenous to the area?

Or ydna L or E?

http://martialculture.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2000px-Distribution_Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA_II.svg1_.png

[Accountant]

Images of your language-ancestors offend you? then I'm sorry

Your ignorance on this matter offends me. As a Russian you have no business commenting "mongoloidness" of Baltic Finns. That's like Turks claiming to be more European than Greeks.

[finþaų]

On the topic of Baltic Finns and Mongoloid features/admixture I would recommend this thread of mine: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66835

Let's get back on (the proper) topic. :)

[Lisa]

Poland-Lithuania-Latvia-Estonia

Just which ydna [R1a,I,N],do you suppose was indigenous to the area?

Or ydna L or E?

http://martialculture.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2000px-Distribution_Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA_II.svg1_.png

Poland is not a part of the Baltic continuum. They lack the native Northern European haplogroups N1c. It is reason why they have below North European component in autosomal data.

[finþaų]

Further OT will be deleted.

EDIT: I mean it.

EDIT#2: yas, I rly men it

[Kelta]

I mentioned language earlier. Lithuanian words spell "closer" (better word choice) to Latin than other Slavic languages. Here is an example: the English word attractive: Latin- adtractorius (-us ending is masc.) ; Lithuanian - patrauklus ; Polish -atrakcyjny English language has 3 million Latin words due to Roman invasions and influences. I'm not a linguist but I see many words with -ius endings similar to Latin's -es and -us endings. Languages above are not the traditional Latin languages like Spanish, French or Italian.

[Aunt Hilda]

I mentioned language earlier. Lithuanian words spell "closer" (better word choice) to Latin than other Slavic languages. Here is an example: the English word attractive: Latin- adtractorius (-us ending is masc.) ; Lithuanian - patrauklus ; Polish -atrakcyjny English language has 3 million Latin words due to Roman invasions and influences. I'm not a linguist but I see many words with -ius endings similar to Latin's -es and -us endings. Languages above are not the traditional Latin languages like Spanish, French or Italian.

well lithuanian is an archaic, non-slavic language, the linguistic differences are to be expected. Yet, I don't see how similarities to latin are the reason for this conflict

[Mans not hot]

Polish is also archaic Slavic language.

[Sarmatian]

My idea on the issue.

In USSR all people were just Soviet citizen, their ethnic identity was distorted and most of the times was just formality. After the split from USSR all newly established small states are going through the process of restoration of self-identification. They are in search of the basis that will allow them to say 'We are different from [enter the desired name here]'.

In this process Lithuanians stumbled upon historical fact that seems to be a serious obstacle: Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. That fact raising the fair question: 'Since we were together for a few centuries are we same people?' The logical answer is obvious 'No', but past of the Soviet rule is still there and Lithuanians feels like their identity is under threat. Strong self-conscious Poland may have some claims from the past, specifically territorial claims. So we have what we have: ill attitude of poor Lithuanians who feel a threat coming from a stronger neighbors.

On the Polish side such attitude towards Lithuanians is impossible. Poles had their share of troubles but at least they enjoy their independent ethnic state since the end of WWII.


lulz, Lithuania is culturally completely Eastern-European., they're like the Poles. Their mentality etc. is foreign to us, Northerners. In Estonia, Lithuanians are known as the people who are responsible for over 90% of all car thefts done in Estonia.

I'm in shock :eek: How come its not Russians responsible for something bad happening in Estonia :rolleyes:

[Laubach]

Since I have nothing to do in this fight between Lithuanian x Poles . I never had anything against the Poles, however, my wife has Polish descent ..

The Poles I met in France, people are very hardworking and honorable.

Those who met on trips were great fun, some of the limits passed in time to celebrate.

But I know they also has a temper, perhaps one reason why certain ethnic groups do not like them. But this happens with all

[Veneda]

Thread closed due to trolling, insults, lot of OT and lack of meaningful content. Will be re-open after cleaning

[Veneda]

Thread reopened after cleaning. Please keep civilized way of discussion.

[Aunt Hilda]

so about the estonians.....kidding

anyway, anybody have anything to contribute?

[Skomand]

Alexander Brückner
Die Slawen und der Weltkrieg
1916
starting at page 118
Die litauische Frage

http://www.epaveldas.lt/vbspi/biRecord.do?biRecordId=39846

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Br%C3%BCckner
-------------------------------
This is a very condescending and arrogant piece of polemics by a Polish (despite his German-sounding name) professor of slavic studies in Berlin. Brückner is the most prominent slavicist round 1900 in Europe.

He calls Lithuanians a tiny, incredibly indolent and apathetic, ungrateful, uncivilized people of falsifiers of history that were saved by the Poles from Teutonic invaders and the grips of Russian orthodoxy.

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i287490_bra-frac14-ckner1.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/287490_bra-frac14-ckner1.jpg.html)


http://hostarea.de/out.php/i287491_bra-frac14-ckner2.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/287491_bra-frac14-ckner2.jpg.html)


http://hostarea.de/out.php/i287492_bra-frac14-ckner3.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/287492_bra-frac14-ckner3.jpg.html)

[Mans not hot]

Bump.

[Mans not hot]

He calls Lithuanians a tiny, incredibly indolent and apathetic, ungrateful, uncivilized people of falsifiers of history that were saved by the Poles from Teutonic invaders and the grips of Russian orthodoxy.

That is true.

[Aunt Hilda]

That is true.

Wasn't it the poles who invited the Teutonic knights there to begin with.

[Albion]

Wasn't it the poles who invited the Teutonic knights there to begin with.

Yeah, to deal with Lithuanian pagans.

[Aunt Hilda]

Yeah, to deal with Lithuanian pagans.

So this whole mess is their fault....

[arcticwolf]

Wasn't it the poles who invited the Teutonic knights there to begin with.

Yes sunshine it was an idiot prince. I would much rather have real Baltic Prussians in the area. I feel compelled to appologize for our idiot prince's actions! Unfortunatelly it's too late for real Prussians.

Sorry Migla! I can promise you we have learned our lesson the hard way and it will never happen again! :laugh:

[member]

That is true.

Another arrogant Pole:

This is a very condescending and arrogant piece of polemics by a Polish (despite his German-sounding name) professor of slavic studies in Berlin. Brückner is the most prominent slavicist round 1900 in Europe.

[Albion]

So this whole mess is their fault....

Teutonic Knights were awesome, Poles can't help that they were deceived. A crusade would have arrived eventually anyway.

[Aunt Hilda]

Yes sunshine it was an idiot prince. I would much rather have real Baltic Prussians in the area. I feel compelled to appologize for our idiot prince's actions! Unfortunatelly it's too late for real Prussians.

Sorry Migla! I can promise you we have learned our lesson the hard way and it will never happen again! :laugh:

Well, it certainly explains the problematic relationship between the two. They unleash the Teutonic knights on them and later they 'save' them...

Teutonic Knights were awesome, Poles can't help that they were deceived. A crusade would have arrived eventually anyway.
I'm just saying that they had a very troubling start to begin with

[Mans not hot]

Another arrogant Pole:
Polonised German.

[Hochmeister]

Who the hell has resurrected this shitstorm topic again? :picard2: It seems somebody have been being bored too much. :D

[riverman]

Why are people always trying to combine Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia? You wouldn't even know that Estonia is different until you talk to Estonians. Bizarre.

[Mans not hot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3JiS-6kFG4

[Aunt Hilda]

XX, seriously? U must be bored :-)

[Aunt Hilda]

Why are people always trying to combine Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia? You wouldn't even know that Estonia is different until you talk to Estonians. Bizarre.


Probably Cuz they have similar geopolitical interests, somewhat similar contemporary history and weak economies

[Dacul]

Is not any shitstorm topic I accidentally saw on inet how poles are discriminated in Lithuain,just because they are poles.

[Gimpicus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJjmCbd5mAo

[Hevo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJjmCbd5mAo

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/sonyae/sonyae0904/sonyae090400022/4641656-close-up-of-horse-s-face.jpg

[Aunt Hilda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJjmCbd5mAo

Out of all then shit on the internet you had to post a hetalia video

[Mans not hot]

XX, seriously? U must be bored :-)
I am bored as always. Anyway, I find one of Humanmaster's post bizarre on ''Do you consider yourself wog'' thread, since my question have nothing to do with the dislike of Lithuanians towards Poles.

[Mans not hot]

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/sonyae/sonyae0904/sonyae090400022/4641656-close-up-of-horse-s-face.jpg
She is American of probably British descent.

[Hevo]

She is American of probably British descent.

Yeah, her accent is American and looks rather Western-european.

[Mans not hot]

Yeah, her accent is American and looks rather Western-european.
Indeed, long horsy face is Western European trait. Anyway, I find her annoying. She deserve a punch in the face because she's yapping shit.

[Aunt Hilda]

Indeed, long horsy face is Western European trait. Anyway, I find her annoying. She deserve a punch in the face because she's yapping shit.

I found it quite entertaining, hetalia can be fun if you want it to be

[Mans not hot]

Still, she's annoying as hell.

[Hevo]

Indeed, long horsy face is Western European trait. Anyway, I find her annoying. She deserve a punch in the face because she's yapping shit.

Yeah man, she fails miserably and she is not funny at all, annoying dziwka!

[riverman]

BTW I've de-friended all members expressing anti-British sentiment in this thread

[Aunt Hilda]

BTW I've de-friended all members expressing anti-British sentiment in this thread

We give them our jobs, pay the NHS bills etc. And this is how they repay us..... (http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1287666826226.png)

[arcticwolf]

Another arrogant Pole:


That's right Bruckner is one of the most popular Polish names, right behind Kowalski! Jesus Christ gimme a break! LOL

[Skomand]

That's right Bruckner is one of the most popular Polish names, right behind Kowalski! Jesus Christ gimme a break! LOL

Aleksander Brückner (29 January 1856 – 24 May 1939) was a Polish scholar of Slavic languages and literatures (Slavistics), philologist, lexicographer and historian of literature. He is among the most notable Slavicists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and the first to prepare complete monographs on the history of Polish language and culture. He published more than 1,500 titles and discovered the Holy Cross Sermons.

[arcticwolf]

Aleksander Brückner (29 January 1856 – 24 May 1939) was a Polish scholar of Slavic languages and literatures (Slavistics), philologist, lexicographer and historian of literature. He is among the most notable Slavicists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and the first to prepare complete monographs on the history of Polish language and culture. He published more than 1,500 titles and discovered the Holy Cross Sermons.

Pay attention WITH A NAME LIKE THAT THERE IS NO CHANCE IN HELL HE WAS A NATIVE Slavic Pole. Poland has non Slavic citizens but they are not Poles. Poles are Slavs. Try harder.

[Mans not hot]

Lol Arcticwolf, Skomand's always bring his unrelated pieces and really agitated proclaim to tell the world anything negative about Poland. Plus, he has zero knowledge when its come to Poles and Poland.

[riverman]

Pay attention WITH A NAME LIKE THAT THERE IS NO CHANCE IN HELL HE WAS A NATIVE Slavic Pole. Poland has non Slavic citizens but they are not Poles. Poles are Slavs. Try harder.

Poland has many names like that, that's not very nice to those people

[Mans not hot]

Poland has many names like that, that's not very nice to those people
LOL wut?

[arcticwolf]

Poland has many names like that, that's not very nice to those people

What are you talking about? Poles comes from Polanie a Slavic tribe. What I said is factual they are citizens of Poland, but if their background is not Slavic or more precisely Polish they are not Slavic Poles. What in this statement is offensive? Bruckner is not a Slavic last name, it's a fact.

[Mans not hot]

What are you talking about? Poles comes from Polanie a Slavic tribe. What I said is factual they are citizens of Poland, but if their background is not Slavic or more precisely Polish they are not Slavic Poles. What in this statement is offensive? Bruckner is not a Slavic last name, it's a fact.
Barbariansteel is American, what do you expect..

[arcticwolf]

Lol Arcticwolf, Skomand's always bring his unrelated pieces and really agitated proclaim to tell the world anything negative about Poland. Plus, he has zero knowledge when its come to Poles and Poland.

At least he should make an effort! A lot of Poles have Lithuanian blood, he should concentrate on those who really dislike them, and it isn't Slavic Poles. I guess he does not have anything better to do. :laugh:

[riverman]

What are you talking about? Poles comes from Polanie a Slavic tribe. What I said is factual they are citizens of Poland, but if their background is not Slavic or more precisely Polish they are not Slavic Poles. What in this statement is offensive? Bruckner is not a Slavic last name, it's a fact.

People with last names like that have been in Poland for a long time, that's stretching it a bit saying he isn't credible just because of that.

[arcticwolf]

People with last names like that have been in Poland for a long time, that's stretching it a bit saying he isn't credible just because of that.

You still don't get it. If they are loyal Polish citzens I have no problem with them. My beef is with the Lithuanian who quotes somebody with a non Polish last name to illustrate supposed Polish hostility towards Lithuanians. At least he should make an effort to find a Slavic Polish racist! lol

For the record Poles don't hate Lithuanians.

[Skomand]

My beef is with the Lithuanian who quotes somebody with a non Polish last name to illustrate supposed Polish hostility towards Lithuanians. At least he should make an effort to find a Slavic Polish racist!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Br%C3%BCckner

Calm down, he was Polish and he contributed more to Polish language and literature and the awareness of it in western Europe while Poland was not on the political map than any other scholar of his time. His material contribution to Polish studies is unique. That you don't know of him and need to be enlightened is´very telling.

Slavs with German names are not uncommon: the current Czech president's name is Klaus.
I have just checked the western Ukranian town from which Brückner's family originates and found another name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Messner
Messner was a prime minister in Communist Poland, also a very common word and name in German.

[arcticwolf]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Br%C3%BCckner

Calm down, he was Polish and he contributed more to Polish language and literature and the awareness of it in western Europe while Poland was not on the political map than any other scholar of his time. His material contribution to Polish studies is unique. That you don't know of him and need to be enlightened is´very telling.

I'd love to continue this enlightening discussion with you, but unfortunately for you I have something a lot more exciting to do .... rearrange my sock drawer. :laugh:

[Skomand]

I understand. May I suggest you don't make silly claims in this forum. This may give you enough time to wash your socks before you rearrange them.

[riverman]

The OP at this point is sounding like a rhetorical question

[riverman]

Barbariansteel is American, what do you expect..


Shut up you pathetic troll, if you hate the west so much why are you living there ? You realize England is the west, right?

[RussiaPrussia]

Yes sunshine it was an idiot prince. I would much rather have real Baltic Prussians in the area. I feel compelled to appologize for our idiot prince's actions! Unfortunatelly it's too late for real Prussians.

Sorry Migla! I can promise you we have learned our lesson the hard way and it will never happen again! :laugh:

german prussians are prussians they mixed with them

[Hevo]

BTW I've de-friended all members expressing anti-British sentiment in this thread

Expressing anti-British sentiment in this thread? Dude, she makes fun of Polish people so she deserves it.

[Aunt Hilda]

Expressing anti-British sentiment in this thread? Dude, she makes fun of Polish people so she deserves it.

She was making fun of a character in hetalia( a Japanese manga and anime) called Poland not the actual country :picard2:

[Hevo]

She was making fun of a character in hetalia( a Japanese manga and anime) called Poland not the actual country :picard2:

She needs to be clear next time then. ''Message from Lithuania'' is kinda weird.:/

[riverman]

The video wouldn't play, so missed it. Don't think I missed much though lol

[Aunt Hilda]

She needs to be clear next time then. ''Message from Lithuania'' is kinda weird.:/

You mean apart from the fact she was talking about Poland as a person, and showing a drawing for the character England and all the the hetalia videos in the suggestion box

[Aunt Hilda]

''Message from Lithuania'' is kinda weird.:/

She was playing the character called "Lithuania"

[Hevo]

You mean apart from the fact she was talking about Poland as a person, and showing a drawing for the character England and all the the hetalia videos in the suggestion box

How do i suppose to know that she means that ''Poland is a person'' and not a country? She needs to be more clear next time that's all no need to defend her.:/

[Aunt Hilda]

How do i suppose to know that she means that ''Poland is a person'' and not a country? She needs to be more clear next time that's all no need to defend her.:/

Its a roleplaying video, she did a good job

[Hevo]

Its a roleplaying video, she did a good job

It's not funny at all, she fails badly.

[Aunt Hilda]

,
It's not funny at all, she fails badly.

have you read anything related to hetalia?

[Aunt Hilda]

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that Lithuanians are justified for having mixed feelings towards Poland

[Szegedist]

This sounds similar to Slovak-Hungarian relations, so can sympathize with Poles.

[sevruk]

Lietuva hate Poland, Poland hate Russia, Russia hate U.S.
conclusion: all the fault of Americunts

[Szegedist]

Lietuva hate Poland, Poland hate Russia, Russia hate U.S.
conclusion: all the fault of Americunts

I see RussiaPrussia logic has infected you too.

[Aunt Hilda]

This sounds similar to Slovak-Hungarian relations, so can sympathize with Poles.

To me this sounds like the england - Scotland relationship, I'm gonna sympathize with Scotland.... I mean Lithuania

[Dacul]

I also think is mostly some people from US to blame for the fact that some lithuanians are hating poles .
There are facts that have happened a in the very distant past,between Poland and Lithuania,so there is no logic in hating current day poles for what it was hundreds of years ago between some people in Poland and some people in Lithuania.
Is clear some people in US are acting weird and use this flawed logic to trick lithuanians who are not staying to analyse things more in depth and start to hate poles,because this is how propaganda supported by US is telling them to do.
US tried to seed hatred between UK and Scandinavia countries also,by starting to remind how vikings raided there,but UK people have a lot of sense of humour and they made a title of glory from having ancestry from vikings,instead of getting angered on scandos.

[Aunt Hilda]

I also think is mostly some people from US to blame for the fact that some lithuanians are hating poles .
There are facts that have happened a in the very distant past,between Poland and Lithuania,so there is no logic in hating current day poles for what it was hundreds of years ago between some people in Poland and some people in Lithuania.
Is clear some people in US are acting weird and use this flawed logic to trick lithuanians who are not staying to analyse things more in depth and start to hate poles,because this is how propaganda supported by US is telling them to do.
US tried to seed hatred between UK and Scandinavia countries also,by starting to remind how vikings raided there,but UK people have a lot of sense of humour and they made a title of glory from having ancestry from vikings,instead of getting angered on scandos.

Nobody is talking about hating poles but rather Poland, even though hate would be a a bit of an overstatement, Lithuanians tend to like poles but Poland in the historical context is viewed quite badly and this distaste for anything polish seems to be somewhat political since the Polish political party is incredibly conservative, the same cannot be said about lithuanians


http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/31412/electoral-action-of-poles-in-lithuania-suggests-abortion-ban-201331412/

[Mans not hot]

Shut up you pathetic troll, if you hate the west so much why are you living there ? You realize England is the west, right?
Yeah I know that, but I don't live in England nor America. I live in a Central place where you'd like to eat Pretzels.

[Mans not hot]

Estonia hate Russia, Lithuania hate Poland
conclusion: all the fault of Karl and Humanmaster/Skomand
Fixed.

[Szegedist]

Barbariansteel is American, what do you expect..

He thinks he knows everything about Central Europe...