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Anglojew
01-01-2013, 11:03 PM
Recently I posted a popular thread (2000 hits in 12 hours) about the deficiency of Spanish governance and culture. Instead of answering my questions maturely, or disproving my contention, I was personally attacked and the thread quickly shut down. I've often wondered at why many Europeans policies exist when they seem to be detrimental to European cultural future and this denial and defensiveness made me realize that it's caused not by some mysterious outside conspiratorial force or ONLY by selfish money-hungry elites but by a general European malaise caused by a failure to examine constructive criticism and be introspective. This can be contrasted with the always evolving and self-critical Americans for whom the critique of American life is almost a national sport. The British, Germans and indeed all successful Europeans seem less effected by this psychosis than Spaniards and Greeks and others but it does still exist.

So what is denial;

"Denial is probably one of the best known defense mechanisms, used often to describe situations in which people seem unable to face reality or admit an obvious truth (i.e. "He's in denial."). Denial is an outright refusal to admit or recognize that something has occurred or is currently occurring. Drug addicts or alcoholics often deny that they have a problem, while victims of traumatic events may deny that the event ever occurred.

Denial functions to protect the ego from things that the individual cannot cope with. While this may save us from anxiety or pain, denial also requires a substantial investment of energy. Because of this, other defenses are also used to keep these unacceptable feelings from consciousness."

Europeans are in denial about the failings of their countries. Even the so-called Nationalists on this board who claim to be "European preservationists" can't stand an outsider "telling it like it is." Even the term "preservationist" implies failure it implies European culture and traditions will be "preserved" like some sort of museum exhibit presumably on small reservations vis-à-vis Native Americans.

Is this why European societies allow and even encourage their governments to continue such culturally and economically suicidal policies such as the Welfare State, mass immigration, cultural relativism, the EU, political correctness etc? Is this because Europe is dying a slow and painful death but the populace would rather fiddle like Nero while Rome burns expecting government handouts and bailouts that are impossible to finance long term which will lead to inevitable bankrupsy both economically and culturally?

Like a dying patient Europeans seem to exhibit the "Five stages of grief" of the Kübler-Ross model;

Denial — "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me."

Denial is usually only a temporary defense for the individual. This feeling is generally replaced with heightened awareness of possessions and individuals that will be left behind after death. Denial can be conscious or unconscious refusal to accept facts, information, or the reality of the situation. Denial is a defense mechanism and some people can become locked in this stage.

Anger — "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; '"Who is to blame?"

Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. Anger can manifest itself in different ways. People can be angry with themselves, or with others, and especially those who are close to them. It is important to remain detached and nonjudgmental when dealing with a person experiencing anger from grief.

Bargaining — "I'll do anything for a few more years."; "I will give my life savings if..."

The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow postpone or delay death. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Psychologically, the individual is saying, "I understand I will die, but if I could just do something to buy more time..." People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek to negotiate a compromise. For example "Can we still be friends?.." when facing a break-up. Bargaining rarely provides a sustainable solution, especially if it's a matter of life or death.

Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"

During the fourth stage, the dying person begins to understand the certainty of death. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and grieving. This process allows the dying person to disconnect from things of love and affection. It is not recommended to attempt to cheer up an individual who is in this stage. It is an important time for grieving that must be processed. Depression could be referred to as the dress rehearsal for the 'aftermath'. It is a kind of acceptance with emotional attachment. It's natural to feel sadness, regret, fear, and uncertainty when going through this stage. Feeling those emotions shows that the person has begun to accept the situation.

Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."

In this last stage, individuals begin to come to terms with their mortality, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. This stage varies according to the person's situation. People dying can enter this stage a long time before the people they leave behind, who must pass through their own individual stages of dealing with the grief.

It seems to me most Europeans, even those who should be more aware on this forum, when confronted by he potentially disastrous mistakes and bad policies of their dying counties and cultures, are stuck somewhere around Stage Two of this model. When confronted by Spain's 26% unemployment (higher than Nigeria and South Africa) and economic and cultural failings of their country the Spaniards on this forum only denied and got angry. They didn't address the issues but sought to attack the messenger. It is for this reason that I have very serious worries about Europe's future and ask the question;

"Is Europe dying?"

Anglojew
01-02-2013, 02:07 AM
Fortis in Arduis kindly recommended some books that seem to echo my conclusions;

The Decline of the West - Oswald Spengler

Which Way Western Man? - William Gayley Simpson

I've downloaded them and will read them myself.

Žołnir
01-04-2013, 11:51 PM
Europe isn't dying but question is, is it going into direction each of you desire. Imo not realy.

Vesuvian Sky
01-05-2013, 12:21 AM
Good idea for a thread. Kinda reminds of the whole western self destruction thread I did a while ago but I framed it more within Europe's past and present cosmological thinking and how it shaped the region but also hurt it.

But to answer your question, Europe perhaps isn't in the best state it could be in but truthfully I see Europe's problems over the many thousands of years as cyclical, depending on the times and situation.

During the era of Rome there was the Pax Romana when the empire kept Europe relatively peaceful for 100 years but afterwards, there were subsequent periods of chaos, revolt, war, then other periods of peace prosperity with new rulers and even empires.

But really it all depends who's in charge and what system is in place and that's what Europe struggled so hard with over the years. Consider - are we pagan or are we monotheists? Are we monarchists or parliamentarists? Now its, are we going to be more like socialists or capitalists or....??? Problem is the third or new way has yet to present itself.

I always felt there was alot more shape shifting to Europe's character which has both been a blessing and a curse for it at the same time. I think this holds true especially when we compare Europe to Gordon V. Childes "Asian Despotism" or how the East has always been far more rigid and autocratic in character then Europe. I feel this applies to most of the major E. Asian societies like Japan and China, both always having an imperial seat for most of their history and a people more willing to march to their emperor's beat.

Throughout European history, the thinking has been "all over the place" more so then in other societies IMO. Again not a bad thing, but also makes it harder to proceed forward in a more cohesive manner which I think is fair to say. If Europe wants to get out of its present state though, it needs to think fast and show some of the innovation that it was able to display in the past.

Damião de Góis
01-05-2013, 12:28 AM
I don't understand the hard on for spaniards that an anglo-jew from Australia could have. Australia is very far away.

Graus
01-05-2013, 12:42 AM
We like to think of ourselves as a little bit more self-critical than the typical American. But overall its not too far from the truth. Rule of thumb: The more fucked up a country is, the less likely they are to respond well to criticism.

Jackson
11-26-2013, 02:11 AM
I think your 'fiddling while Rome burns' analogy is spot on. Our politicians have become experts at this, they talk a lot and do little. Go chasing after minor changes in order to keep their popularity up while the big issues go unaddressed or even supported.
I've just started to read one of Oswald Spengler's books (going to read The Decline of the West afterwards), and change the country and it still holds a lot of relevance today.
I wouldn't consider myself a socialist per-se, but i'm arriving at the viewpoint that we need to detach ourselves from both the hyper capitalistic world and the Marxist/extreme Socialist (particularly culturally-socially) world and find some sort of balance between the two, and make sure that it is also nationalistic in nature. I think some of the problems with extreme socialism is that when it's done very badly you end up 'levelling' the entirety and while making it appear more fair, holding back progress and individual endeavor and entrepreneurial ideas. While with capitalism a small number of people effectively have a monopoly on the nation and do not necessarily work in it's interest. If we were able to harness the drive for success that is evidenced well in the capitalistic world, but use it to forward the nation more generally and also to encourage more of the same through this success, i think it might be ideal. We need to regain a sense of common community at a national level, and for people to be willing to 'do their part' and work hard for the others in their group, but ultimately to know that they can achieve personal success, and that while the personal success of the individual within the society can help raise the situation of the less successful, there is enough drive for success to make sure that people do not become very dependent or complacent. In that way the community can work for itself both at a national level and an individual level. Each individual success forwards the nation but the incentive to succeed individually is the largest driver of this desire for success. It should also be nationalist rather than internationalist, as globalism and marxism/communism are both fundamentally internationalist and appear to breakdown the cohesion with national groups, and people see less and less of themselves working for themselves as part of a group, but rather as working for themselves at the expense of the group. No idea how this would be achieved, but i think the key to a strong Europe is for it's residents to be part of strong nations with good relations.

Anyway, it feels to me like we are living the decadent last years of 'western' civilisation, and we have to to act soon to bring about a 'kill or cure', rather than waiting for the inevitable slow decline to reach it's conclusion. I'd rather have a chance of winning than no chance at all.

Reading it through it seems like i've put together my thoughts rather crudely and simply but i'm only just starting to move onto these feelings, and it's pretty late, time to go to bed. :)

Shah-Jehan
11-26-2013, 02:21 AM
Europe as a continent may be dying but, independent nations are Europe especially in eastern Europe are growing...

Prisoner Of Ice
11-26-2013, 02:39 AM
Human government stages:

1. Family unit.

2. Tribal. Everyone is loosely related, that's all that keeps them together.

3. Royalty. There's a mandate of heaven for ruler, and he basically owns everything but givs it back to the people. He is concerned more by his realm than the individual but gurantees certain rights to subjects or at least a noble class.

4. Nationalism. This is the most hated type, and I sometimes think hitler was an antinationalism plot. Royals hate this more than anything. Rule by the people. USA is best example, but it's equated with hitler to put as much tarnish on it as possible.

5. De Facto Corporate rule. This is what we have in European Union and United States today. At least royals care about the health of the realm and general stability, even if not their subjects. In corporate rule they not only do not care about them but they are set dead against them. For a corporate interest getting your money is the only goal, and so the goal is to disposess anyone with any wealth by any means possible, fill jobs by cheapest means possible, kill labor laws, import cheaper workers to replace you, and do whatever it takes to maximize their profits.

Fortis in Arduis
11-26-2013, 05:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdyQd6Xks7A

Breedingvariety
11-26-2013, 07:38 AM
I think Europe is in depression stage, not acceptance yet.

4. Nationalism. This is the most hated type, and I sometimes think hitler was an antinationalism plot. Royals hate this more than anything. Rule by the people. USA is best example, but it's equated with hitler to put as much tarnish on it as possible.
Yeah, I suspect Hitler was part of the plot to destroy nationalism. Now nationalism is considered racism and evil.

5. De Facto Corporate rule. This is what we have in European Union and United States today. At least royals care about the health of the realm and general stability, even if not their subjects. In corporate rule they not only do not care about them but they are set dead against them. For a corporate interest getting your money is the only goal, and so the goal is to disposess anyone with any wealth by any means possible, fill jobs by cheapest means possible, kill labor laws, import cheaper workers to replace you, and do whatever it takes to maximize their profits.
No, it's not money grab, it's power grab and people are conditioned to relinquish their power.

Kiyant
11-26-2013, 07:39 AM
Dont really think so

Wolf
11-26-2013, 07:34 PM
"Is Europe dying?"

Yes, like all Western countries.



I wouldn't consider myself a socialist per-se, but i'm arriving at the viewpoint that we need to detach ourselves from both the hyper capitalistic world and the Marxist/extreme Socialist (particularly culturally-socially) world and find some sort of balance between the two, ...

That's called "Soziale Marktwirtschaft".

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy

Rudel
11-26-2013, 07:47 PM
4. Nationalism. This is the most hated type, and I sometimes think hitler was an antinationalism plot. Royals hate this more than anything. Rule by the people. USA is best example, but it's equated with hitler to put as much tarnish on it as possible.
You confuse nationalism and modern democracies. They go hand in hand during the last two centuries but they're not consubstantial.

Moreover, the history of governments (or history at all) isn't linear and uniform. There was much more diversity of types of governments and political organizations a few centuries ago than now, be it only in Europe.

Methusalem
11-26-2013, 07:52 PM
Fortis in Arduis kindly recommended some books that seem to echo my conclusions;

The Decline of the West - Oswald Spengler

Which Way Western Man? - William Gayley Simpson

I've downloaded them and will read them myself.

Oswald Spengler was Adolf Hitler's biggest inspiration.

Mehmet
11-26-2013, 07:55 PM
In terms of social health, yes it's agonizing.
It becomes increasingly degenerate by day.
I think the weakening faith in the Christian religion is the reason.
People seem to live only to feed their daily, somewhat bestial (like eating, wearing or having sex), needs and that's all.

Peikko
11-26-2013, 07:59 PM
European culture is definitely dying. The societies will live, but they will have a different form that we're used to.

Wolf
11-26-2013, 08:15 PM
Oswald Spengler was Adolf Hitler's biggest inspiration.

Spengler was no Nazi. He regarded the Nazis as fanatics and refused their racism.

The King, I am
11-26-2013, 08:18 PM
Europe is dying, mainly because of Arab and Paki immigrants

Mn The Loki TA Son
11-26-2013, 08:23 PM
With all the Gypsies spreading in Europe like rats It probably will soon.

Mn The Loki TA Son
11-26-2013, 08:29 PM
European culture is definitely dying. The societies will live, but they will have a different form that we're used to.

I heard the Gypsies are spreading across Europe far as UK now are reaching far North into Scandinavian countries and Finland. Must suck to be getting invade and populated by those horrible ugly gypsies.

Baldur
11-26-2013, 08:36 PM
I heard the Gypsies are spreading across Europe far as UK now are reaching far North into Scandinavian countries and Finland. Must suck to be getting invade and populated by those horrible ugly gypsies.

Gypsies has a long history in Northern Europe and the UK as well.

Baluarte
11-26-2013, 08:41 PM
Of course it is. And in great part thanks to Revolutionaries, Freemasons and the role of organized Jewry.

Hardly new though. I was reading today the memories of Count Sergei Sheremetev, member of the aristocracy and close to the Romanovs during the last days of the Empire. Even in that context, he already identified the sources of liberalism and modernism using the term "Jew Masonry".

Baluarte
11-26-2013, 08:42 PM
Gypsies has a long history in Northern Europe and the UK as well.

I can't believe someone seriously thinks Europe is dying because of the gypsies. :picard1:

Baluarte
11-26-2013, 08:45 PM
In terms of social health, yes it's agonizing.
It becomes increasingly degenerate by day.
I think the weakening faith in the Christian religion is the reason.
People seem to live only to feed their daily, somewhat bestial (like eating, wearing or having sex), needs and that's all.

Pretty much, it's not just a matter of bankruptcy, or immigration, or corrupt politicians, or failing social security systems. It's a complete civilization devolution taking place, that will end up transforming people into hollow shells, only fit for mind numbing work and equally numbing consumerism.

Rudel
11-26-2013, 08:52 PM
I heard the Gypsies are spreading across Europe far as UK now are reaching far North into Scandinavian countries and Finland. Must suck to be getting invade and populated by those horrible ugly gypsies.
Gypsies are annoying parasites, but they have no influence on anything.

I don't really care for Europe dying, or the decay and decadence of Europe etc. I don't consider myself European.

This being said, our local problems stem, as being said before by others, from the destruction of our spirituality and mental strength.
Without that there wouldn't be compromise with every single enemy of France, there wouldn't be French people thinking English is better and more entertaining than their own tongue, there wouldn't be both lack of respect and lack of interest in eveything that makes us who we were, deeply are and should be.

Empecinado
11-26-2013, 08:54 PM
Pretty much, it's not just a matter of bankruptcy, or immigration, or corrupt politicians, or failing social security systems. It's a complete civilization devolution taking place, that will end up transforming people into hollow shells, only fit for mind numbing work and equally numbing consumerism.

Bankruptcy, immigration, corruption and so on are just a consequence of the dying civilization.

RandoBloom
11-26-2013, 08:56 PM
All that is hapening today is the result of european values and cultural evolution falling apart. Hapened before with others, now is hapening here.
And as sad as that makes me, its all European fault

Anglojew
11-26-2013, 09:01 PM
Of course it is. And in great part thanks to Revolutionaries, Freemasons and the role of organized Jewry.

Hardly new though. I was reading today the memories of Count Sergei Sheremetev, member of the aristocracy and close to the Romanovs during the last days of the Empire. Even in that context, he already identified the sources of liberalism and modernism using the term "Jew Masonry".

I'm waiting for you to thank me then for allowing you in Europe -since I'm a Jewish Freemason- I've obviously paved the way for mixed-racial immigrants, like you, to move to France.

-You're Welcome!

Wolf
11-26-2013, 09:02 PM
I don't really care for Europe dying, or the decay and decadence of Europe etc. I don't consider myself European.

France is not an autarkic island. "Divide et impera" only serves foreign powers.



And as sad as that makes me, its all European fault

That's probably true. Blaming others for your own faults is a non-European behavior.

RandoBloom
11-26-2013, 09:12 PM
France is not an autarkic island. "Divide et impera" only serves foreign powers.




That's probably true. Blaming others for your own faults is a non-European behavior.

It has nothing with Divide et impera.
It has with European way of life. People would rather have a dog/cat than raise a child.

Rudel
11-26-2013, 09:15 PM
France is not an autarkic island.
Yes. So what ? The conception that all of us within that designated area called Europe belong to the same civilization is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.


"Divide et impera" only serves foreign powers.
Yes. And Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Poland... are foreign powers.
We don't belong to the same people, we don't live on the same land, we don't view the world the same way. You're a foreigner to me and will always be.

To me what needs to be united is not Europe, it's the French people.

Mn The Loki TA Son
11-26-2013, 09:16 PM
I can't believe someone seriously thinks Europe is dying because of the gypsies. :picard1:

Probably you are a gypsy so you say that who knows?

Baluarte
11-26-2013, 09:17 PM
Probably you are a gypsy so you say that who knows?

Yes man, I'm a gypsy. Congratulations, now move along.

Wolf
11-26-2013, 09:33 PM
It has with European way of life. People would rather have a dog/cat than raise a child.

Cars are quite popular, too.



The conception that all of us within that designated area called Europe belong to the same civilization is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.

That's called Western civilization.



Yes. And Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Poland... are foreign powers.

They're small on a global scale. The European nations are on a good way to become an open-air museum for Chinese tourists.



We don't belong to the same people, we don't live on the same land, we don't view the world the same way. You're a foreigner to me and will always be.

At least, you have more in common with me than with a Tupí or a Maasai.



To me what needs to be united is not Europe, it's the French people.

That's no contradiction.

Petros Houhoulis
11-26-2013, 09:37 PM
Recently I posted a popular thread (2000 hits in 12 hours) about the deficiency of Spanish governance and culture. Instead of answering my questions maturely, or disproving my contention, I was personally attacked and the thread quickly shut down. I've often wondered at why many Europeans policies exist when they seem to be detrimental to European cultural future and this denial and defensiveness made me realize that it's caused not by some mysterious outside conspiratorial force or ONLY by selfish money-hungry elites but by a general European malaise caused by a failure to examine constructive criticism and be introspective. This can be contrasted with the always evolving and self-critical Americans for whom the critique of American life is almost a national sport. The British, Germans and indeed all successful Europeans seem less effected by this psychosis than Spaniards and Greeks and others but it does still exist.

So what is denial;

"Denial is probably one of the best known defense mechanisms, used often to describe situations in which people seem unable to face reality or admit an obvious truth (i.e. "He's in denial."). Denial is an outright refusal to admit or recognize that something has occurred or is currently occurring. Drug addicts or alcoholics often deny that they have a problem, while victims of traumatic events may deny that the event ever occurred.

Denial functions to protect the ego from things that the individual cannot cope with. While this may save us from anxiety or pain, denial also requires a substantial investment of energy. Because of this, other defenses are also used to keep these unacceptable feelings from consciousness."

Europeans are in denial about the failings of their countries. Even the so-called Nationalists on this board who claim to be "European preservationists" can't stand an outsider "telling it like it is." Even the term "preservationist" implies failure it implies European culture and traditions will be "preserved" like some sort of museum exhibit presumably on small reservations vis-à-vis Native Americans.

Is this why European societies allow and even encourage their governments to continue such culturally and economically suicidal policies such as the Welfare State, mass immigration, cultural relativism, the EU, political correctness etc? Is this because Europe is dying a slow and painful death but the populace would rather fiddle like Nero while Rome burns expecting government handouts and bailouts that are impossible to finance long term which will lead to inevitable bankrupsy both economically and culturally?

Like a dying patient Europeans seem to exhibit the "Five stages of grief" of the Kübler-Ross model;

Denial — "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me."

Denial is usually only a temporary defense for the individual. This feeling is generally replaced with heightened awareness of possessions and individuals that will be left behind after death. Denial can be conscious or unconscious refusal to accept facts, information, or the reality of the situation. Denial is a defense mechanism and some people can become locked in this stage.

Anger — "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; '"Who is to blame?"

Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. Anger can manifest itself in different ways. People can be angry with themselves, or with others, and especially those who are close to them. It is important to remain detached and nonjudgmental when dealing with a person experiencing anger from grief.

Bargaining — "I'll do anything for a few more years."; "I will give my life savings if..."

The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow postpone or delay death. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Psychologically, the individual is saying, "I understand I will die, but if I could just do something to buy more time..." People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek to negotiate a compromise. For example "Can we still be friends?.." when facing a break-up. Bargaining rarely provides a sustainable solution, especially if it's a matter of life or death.

Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"

During the fourth stage, the dying person begins to understand the certainty of death. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and grieving. This process allows the dying person to disconnect from things of love and affection. It is not recommended to attempt to cheer up an individual who is in this stage. It is an important time for grieving that must be processed. Depression could be referred to as the dress rehearsal for the 'aftermath'. It is a kind of acceptance with emotional attachment. It's natural to feel sadness, regret, fear, and uncertainty when going through this stage. Feeling those emotions shows that the person has begun to accept the situation.

Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."

In this last stage, individuals begin to come to terms with their mortality, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. This stage varies according to the person's situation. People dying can enter this stage a long time before the people they leave behind, who must pass through their own individual stages of dealing with the grief.

It seems to me most Europeans, even those who should be more aware on this forum, when confronted by he potentially disastrous mistakes and bad policies of their dying counties and cultures, are stuck somewhere around Stage Two of this model. When confronted by Spain's 26% unemployment (higher than Nigeria and South Africa) and economic and cultural failings of their country the Spaniards on this forum only denied and got angry. They didn't address the issues but sought to attack the messenger. It is for this reason that I have very serious worries about Europe's future and ask the question;

"Is Europe dying?"

In a simple sentence, NO, EUROPE IS NOT DYING. Why? Because Europe is not a living organism but a continent. The European culture of course might seem under siege, but by whom? People with inferior cultures? Just because they are colonizing Europe? Well, Europe has colonized the entire planet in the past too. Even if we face difficulties right now, we can always change our priorities and request to receive our cultural offspring (particularly Spain, which you are criticizing, which can always absorb the overpopulation of the half of Latin America, with Portugal having the other half) instead of the Muslims.

Europe can - and will - fight back, pretty soon too! The next elections in the European parliament shall shift the agenda further to the right, and the Muslims with one foot outside of Europe.

Even though the Mediterranean region of Europe is losing ground, it is still ahead of Eastern Europe in terms of GDP/capita, including the recent members of the E.U., and the only real competitors are in the other side of the world in South-East Asia. Europe could easily defeat all external threats, as long as it has a will to do so, and - either you like it or not - the willingness of the Mediterranean elites to accept the harsh economic realities imposed by North Europe, and the resilience of the Mediterranean folks which resulted to no serious clashes, proves that the Southern Europeans accept much more than criticism.

Petros Houhoulis
11-26-2013, 09:42 PM
Fortis in Arduis kindly recommended some books that seem to echo my conclusions;

The Decline of the West - Oswald Spengler

Which Way Western Man? - William Gayley Simpson

I've downloaded them and will read them myself.

Do you actually have any book suggesting what will replace Europe? Because what I see is the rest of the world aligning with the European (a.k.a. Western) culture, either by force of peacefully, during the last 500 years, and the modern globalization is one of the same: More Western influence everywhere, to the point that the Chinese have become obsessed with the English language...

Rudel
11-26-2013, 09:43 PM
That's called Western civilization.
And I think the Western civilization is a mystification.


They're small on a global scale.
Size doesn't matter, projection does.


The European nations are on a good way to become an open-air museum for Chinese tourists.
Unrelated to what we're talking about. And I've already expressed my views on tourism (that should be exterminated in France).


At least, you have more in common with me than with a Tupí or a Maasai.
I have more in common with a Senegalese than I have with you.


That's no contradiction.
There is. There can't be coexistence of the nation with another political unit that claims to be superior (typical imperial-like structures), for they both assert being the ultimate level of political power.


More Western influence everywhere, to the point that the Chinese have become obsessed with the English language...
The world aligns with the English civilization. The rest of the "West" has no impact of that influence. We're equally a victim of that shit, really.

Petros Houhoulis
11-26-2013, 10:00 PM
In terms of social health, yes it's agonizing.
It becomes increasingly degenerate by day.
I think the weakening faith in the Christian religion is the reason.
People seem to live only to feed their daily, somewhat bestial (like eating, wearing or having sex), needs and that's all.

Yeah, we are missing the Thirty years war between religious goons...

...Somehow the replacement of fervent religiosity with fervent nationalism resulted to an explosion of the European demographics, technology and supremacy over the rest of the world, something that even the Turks finally grasped (with a few centuries of delay) and now the goons (a.k.a. "Turks") are leading the way back to the caves...

Baluarte
11-26-2013, 10:05 PM
Yeah, we are missing the Thirty years war between religious goons...

...Somehow the replacement of fervent religiosity with fervent nationalism resulted to an explosion of the European demographics, technology and supremacy over the rest of the world, something that even the Turks finally grasped (with a few centuries of delay) and now the goons (a.k.a. "Turks") are leading the way back to the caves...

"Fervent" nationalism was quite shortlived. Appeared and was exported initially with the French Revolution, but only crystalized by the mid XIX Century, as the 1848 Revolutions showed. This fixation with what I call "Clausewitz-like nationalism" dissapeared 100 years by the end of World War II later, being replaced with liberal cosmopolitanism.

Wolf
11-26-2013, 10:08 PM
Just because they are colonizing Europe? Well, Europe has colonized the entire planet in the past too.

That's hardly comparable.



Europe can - and will - fight back, pretty soon too! The next elections in the European parliament shall shift the agenda further to the right, and the Muslims with one foot outside of Europe.

You're quite optimistic. :rolleyes:



And I think the Western civilization is a mystification.

That's a fallacy.

Take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture



Unrelated to what we're talking about.

I don't think so. It's not as implausible as it may seem.



I have more in common with a Senegalese than I have with you.

Are you a Black Muslim? :confused:



There is. There can't be coexistence of the nation with another political unit that claims to be superior (typical imperial-like structures), for they both assert being the ultimate level of political power.

The EU is (fortunately) not the only solution.



The world aligns with the English civilization. The rest of the "West" has no impact of that influence. We're equally a victim of that shit, really.

The Anglo-American influence has been very ambivalent, but they're nonetheless "part of the same family".

Baluarte
11-26-2013, 10:10 PM
The Anglo-American influence has been very ambivalent, but they're nonetheless "part of the same family".

If you don't mind me cutting in, could you tell me how precisely are Anglo Americans "part of the same family" with Latin Catholics?
I'd argue that I find even more consonance with the Russians than with them....

Petros Houhoulis
11-26-2013, 10:11 PM
Yes. So what ? The conception that all of us within that designated area called Europe belong to the same civilization is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.


Yes. And Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Poland... are foreign powers.
We don't belong to the same people, we don't live on the same land, we don't view the world the same way. You're a foreigner to me and will always be.

To me what needs to be united is not Europe, it's the French people.

There was a guy who was something like the president of the American scientists - with origins from India - who restricted the total number of original civilizations to 12. The 8 of them were European in origin... The Dutch were entitled to a slot, the Turks were not...

I can't say that I am threatened by Muslims. They might think they have a civilization, but even if it's true, that civilization is already outdated...

Manifest Destiny
11-26-2013, 10:11 PM
All Western nations are dying for the reasons listed in the OP.

Petros Houhoulis
11-26-2013, 10:15 PM
"Fervent" nationalism was quite shortlived. Appeared and was exported initially with the French Revolution, but only crystalized by the mid XIX Century, as the 1848 Revolutions showed. This fixation with what I call "Clausewitz-like nationalism" dissapeared 100 years by the end of World War II later, being replaced with liberal cosmopolitanism.

Well, it was short lived because of the destruction it brought to Europe during WWII. Nowadays a new type of Nationalism can emerge, which combines Nationalism of individual European states with respect to the other European states - or at least whichever serious states there are in the planet... Either way, the Nationalists shall have a comeback quite soon...

Baluarte
11-26-2013, 10:18 PM
Well, it was short lived because of the destruction it brought to Europe during WWII. Nowadays a new type of Nationalism can emerge, which combines Nationalism of individual European states with respect to the other European states - or at least whichever serious states there are in the planet... Either way, the Nationalists shall have a comeback quite soon...

Nationalism is inherently Modernist, which is why it's destroyed a lot of traditions and cultures in its wake.
Still, I agree with your last part. Problem is what brand will take preeminence. Neocon-like "civic nationalism" represented by Geert Wilders, the EDL and all their buddies? Neofascism?
I don't know. I hope that Maurras' idea of reconciling Monarchy with Nation might take place, otherwise, I'm quite pessimistic as to the effectiveness of whatever nationalist surge. There's a high chance it might end up being just another Modernist gasp.

Wolf
11-26-2013, 10:30 PM
If you don't mind me cutting in, could you tell me how precisely are Anglo Americans "part of the same family" with Latin Catholics?

First of all, they're both Christians. Nonetheless, the fact that they're both offsprings of European colonial powers unites them to a certain extent.

You'll probably admit that Santiago de Chile shows more resemblance to Vancouver than to Damascus.

Petros Houhoulis
11-26-2013, 10:36 PM
That's hardly comparable.

It is not even close. The Europeans created functioning states outside of Europe, while the Moslems are the lowest rate of immigrants, who are fleeing Moslem states which are falling apart, and obviously cannot establish a functioning state anywhere without oil reserves (and even then, it's quasi-operational)


You're quite optimistic. :rolleyes:

Have you seen that guy Hrulj? He is still butthurt because when Serbs and Croats were gangbanging Bosnia, the supposedly liberal European governments didn't give a rats' arse about them... Nowadays they are cheering that they are dominating Bosnia, while forgetting that their population has plummeted and their children are fleeing and assimilating around the whole of Europe. Of course the same is true for the most of Eastern Europe too, but no major invasion of Moslems take place in there. Now that the European public is becoming more Nationalistic to the verge of Xenophobia, the results should be obvious...


That's a fallacy.

Take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

Just tell the man that there are plenty of European civilizations, all compatible with each other. This was always the advantage of Europe over the rest of the planet: Too long a coastline, too many places to hide and defend your ground from others. This is why vast stretches of the globe have become the realm of a single empire, but large swathes of Europe have never been part of a single empire for a long time, except from the Roman times...


I don't think so. It's not as implausible as it may seem.

The Chinese are facing an even more serious demographic challenge than Europe, because of the single child policy, and you people are masturbating over tourism, as if tourism could even become a threat...


Are you a Black Muslim? :confused:

No, he just forced the Senegalese to speak French, and somehow he feels that France is under threat by other half-naked tribes...


The EU is (fortunately) not the only solution.

Other solutions won't differ significantly from what we have right now. Maybe less corruption, but hardly a different ideal. In the end of the day, the largest part of the E.U. (after the agricultural policy) goes to translation services...


The Anglo-American influence has been very ambivalent, but they're nonetheless "part of the same family".

The global share of the English-speaking websites is on the decline over the world, but the French are always upset for being in the second place, as usual...

Rudel
11-26-2013, 10:53 PM
That's a fallacy.

Take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
The fallacy is using a Wikipedia page to ascertain an argument.

I know the idea of Western civilization or culture is a usual and well accepted category. I also think it's complete shit and wholeheartedly reject it.


Are you a Black Muslim? :confused:
No, but I speak French. I'm closer to a black Muslim that can speak like a human being than to a bloody boche.


The EU is (fortunately) not the only solution.
The only solution is France, and the only power I'll ever recognize in Europe is French. I'm not an imperialist, but if there's need of an empire I'll never tolerate one that isn't ours.


The Anglo-American influence has been very ambivalent, but they're nonetheless "part of the same family".
Having a handicapped half-brother (England) that had a bastard child doesn't make us close to them.

Pontios
11-26-2013, 10:55 PM
Europe will never die. The ideas and culture that we possess will never die.

Europe is the center and heart of the world and will always remain that way.

Rudel
11-26-2013, 11:01 PM
I don't know. I hope that Maurras' idea of reconciling Monarchy with Nation might take place
If it takes place, it'll never take place outside of France and for a simple reason :
The concept of nation originated here, but draws from French historical realities. As some would say, the Nation is a natural consequence of the (French) Monarchy.
Thus there's no essential conflict. Except for places that aren't France, you know, like the rest of the world.

(It could possibly work for other nations with old history and a tradition of centralized monarchy/state.)

Petros Houhoulis
11-27-2013, 12:39 AM
Yeah, I suspect Hitler was part of the plot to destroy nationalism. Now nationalism is considered racism and evil.

Hitler was NEVER a nationalist. He was a racialist. In fact he sold SudTyrol to Mussolini in exchange for his friendship...

Petros Houhoulis
11-27-2013, 01:15 AM
Nationalism is inherently Modernist, which is why it's destroyed a lot of traditions and cultures in its wake.
Still, I agree with your last part. Problem is what brand will take preeminence. Neocon-like "civic nationalism" represented by Geert Wilders, the EDL and all their buddies? Neofascism?
I don't know. I hope that Maurras' idea of reconciling Monarchy with Nation might take place, otherwise, I'm quite pessimistic as to the effectiveness of whatever nationalist surge. There's a high chance it might end up being just another Modernist gasp.

Well, it's not so difficult to realize where European Nationalism is heading to: Nationalism was defined as the "negation of the other" since the era of Herodotus:

http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520264236


Herodotus's great work is not only an account of the momentous historical conflict between the Greeks and the Persians but also the earliest sustained exploration in the West of the problem of cultural difference. François Hartog asks fundamental questions about how Herodotus represented this difference. How did he and his readers understand the customs and beliefs of those who were not Greek? How did the historian convince his readers that his account of other peoples was reliable? How is it possible to comprehend a way of life radically different from one's own? What are the linguistic, rhetorical, and philosophical means by which Herodotus fashions his text into a mirror of the marginal and unknown? In answering these questions, Hartog transforms our understanding of the "father of history." His Herodotus is less the chronicler of a victorious Greece than a brilliant writer in pursuit of otherness.

The "other" in the era of Herodotus were the Barbarians, who were at the time everybody non-Greek. Gradually the term Barbarian was getting narrower: The Romans were included into the civilized world, and ever since the list is growing.

We had some Barbaric times in Europe, when perfectly functioning people were defined as "Barbarians" or many different styles of "others", which resulted to many wars in the continent. Nowadays though, the "other" is better defined, and the Barbarians of today are synonymous to the Muslims, at least according to the European Nationalists of today. Some folks like Rudel might consider every non-French as "other" - in the same fashion that Herodotus considered every non-Greek a Barbarian, while living in the fallacy that the French grasped the idea first (Herodotus accepts the Hellenization of non-Hellenic speaking people like the "Pelasgian" Ionians, whose language was vastly more different to Greek than Occitan or Breton has ever been to standard French!) but still, Rudel won't see other European as "Barbarians". For every sane person, Two world wars starting from Europe are enough.

Neo-Nazism doesn't stand a chance. It was never Nationalism in the first place. The ridiculous Fascist regime of Mussolini does not really attract anybody those days... Except from Pontios who is - well - the stereotypical Pontian butt of Greek jokes from antiquity until our days. He doesn't even realize that Mussolini supressed the Greek language in Calabria and Salento...

Rudel
11-27-2013, 01:29 AM
Herodotus accepts the Hellenization of non-Hellenic speaking people like the "Pelasgian" Ionians, whose language was vastly more different to Greek than Occitan or Breton has ever been to standard French!
Don't forget that we also have Basques.


but still, Rudel won't see other European as "Barbarians".
I see many Europeans as Barbarians.


For every sane person, Two world wars starting from Europe are enough.
We have had enough of that bloody idiocy that the only alternative to accepting the whole European thing (may it be the EU of something else) is another World War.

Pontios
11-27-2013, 01:45 AM
Neo-Nazism doesn't stand a chance. It was never Nationalism in the first place. The ridiculous Fascist regime of Mussolini does not really attract anybody those days... Except from Pontios who is - well - the stereotypical Pontian butt of Greek jokes from antiquity until our days. He doesn't even realize that Mussolini supressed the Greek language in Calabria and Salento...

First off, I'm not a Neo-Nazi...

Secondly, that's good that he did. He did it for his nation, I would have done the same thing. I like him for his ideology, not what he did, because he gave rise to that ideology.

Petros Houhoulis
11-27-2013, 03:26 AM
Don't forget that we also have Basques.

Rudel, you don't beat our track record in assimilation prowess! Eventually, your alphabet all the way to the Coptic alphabet have Greek origins!


I see many Europeans as Barbarians.

Care to mention whom and why? Because some Greeks consider your raw meat eating as Barbarian - You didn't accidentally name the dish after the notorious Tartars, correct? - not to mention against hygienic standards!


We have had enough of that bloody idiocy that the only alternative to accepting the whole European thing (may it be the EU of something else) is another World War.

Well, even if you don't accept the "whole European thing", nobody shall revert to the older border conflicts for the sake of Alsace and Lorraine nowadays... You must be tired of this thing by now...

Same applies for the other contested regions in Europe, or at least true Europe!

Petros Houhoulis
11-27-2013, 03:35 AM
First off, I'm not a Neo-Nazi...

Secondly, that's good that he did. He did it for his nation, I would have done the same thing. I like him for his ideology, not what he did, because he gave rise to that ideology.

The use of "angry civilians" as militia for political and military purposes (the cornerstone of Fascism) was inaugurated by Metaxas resulting to the Noemvriana crisis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noemvriana


The inclusion of the Greek army along with Allied forces, as well as the division of Greece, sparked several anti-Allied demonstrations in Athens. In late October, a secret agreement was reached between the king and the Allied diplomats. The pressure from the military advisers forced the king to abandon this agreement. In an attempt to enforce their demands, the Allies landed a small contingent in Athens on 1 December [O.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates) 18 November] 1916. However, it met organized resistance and an armed confrontation took place until a compromise was reached at the end of the day. The day after the Allied contingent evacuated from Athens, a royalist mob began rioting throughout the city, targeting supporters of Venizelos. The rioting continued for three days, and the incident became known as the Noemvriana in Greece, which in the Old Style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style) calendar occurred during the month of November. The incident drove a deep wedge

Metaxas though was smart enough to remain a royalist than promote himself into a tyrant, and we all know what happens to tyrants like Hitler, Mussolini, or even Saddam Hussein or Muamar Gaddafi... Not to mention what is happening to their states AFTER their fall to their enemies...

...Ultimately, by supporting a theory that is failing in practice, you promote failure!

Rudel
11-27-2013, 09:09 AM
Rudel, you don't beat our track record in assimilation prowess! Eventually, your alphabet all the way to the Coptic alphabet have Greek origins!
Dorian through Etruscan I think. But I don't care, I'm a declared hellenophile.


Care to mention whom and why?
Well, there are historical gradations in the degrees of civilization to me : Hellenism and Latinity (converging towards Romanity) --> Carolingian and Eastern Roman --> Catholicism and Orthodoxy. And out of these broad categories, individual civilizations that stem from old nations or old ethnicities with a high degree of political self-conscience : Greek, French, Hispanic (and pan-Romance or pan-Gallo-Romance to an extent), Austro-Hungarian (or pan-Bavarian and Hungarian), Russian etc. I consider Northern Germanics or Balts to be complete barbarians, regardless of their HDI.
And I consider Greeks to be more civilized than the Czech, the English or the Dutch.


Because some Greeks consider your raw meat eating as Barbarian - You didn't accidentally name the dish after the notorious Tartars, correct? - not to mention against hygienic standards!
I find raw meat (well, raw fresh meat) to be absolutely disgusting and it's not French. It did come from Ukraine.


Well, even if you don't accept the "whole European thing", nobody shall revert to the older border conflicts for the sake of Alsace and Lorraine nowadays... You must be tired of this thing by now...
I'd die for Alsace or for Moselle (being from Lorraine myself) if needs be. We will always revert to border conflicts at some point, and union in Europe won't last. You either live with the head in the clouds wishing that nothing bad never happens or actually prepare the future and the security of your country. We have the size and means to insure our security and future without relying on others (at least where the essential needs, or the categorical imperatives of the nation as I call it, are concerned). That's all that matters to me. That other countries in Europe can't afford existing on their own isn't my problem, and ultimately means that they're not bound to exist anyway.


Same applies for the other contested regions in Europe, or at least true Europe!
If they are tired of fighting, they might as well disappear because they don't deserve their existence and freedom.

Anglo-Celtic Empire
11-27-2013, 04:16 PM
The teachings and ideology in the western world at the moment isn't good for European patriotism ( we all know that ) . But the fact is we don't have our own choice on how to think . Our governments decide every aspect of our future . Until we get Other Elites in power with a different ideology then we are going to stay the same as we have from the 50s-60s , Mass immigration , Feminism ( Extreme) collective guilt for 3RD worlders and inferior cultures . But its going to be so hard to break out of this we owe the world let them all come here mind set . The currant government has the media on there side to brainwash people with there relentless propaganda . The only way i can see Europe surviving and Europeans not becoming the minority is threw violent revolution and Civil-war . On a positive note Europeans will survive , But theres going to be less of us . Thats my pennies worth

Wolf
11-27-2013, 04:27 PM
Just tell the man that there are plenty of European civilizations, all compatible with each other. This was always the advantage of Europe over the rest of the planet: Too long a coastline, too many places to hide and defend your ground from others. This is why vast stretches of the globe have become the realm of a single empire, but large swathes of Europe have never been part of a single empire for a long time, except from the Roman times...

You've got it! In contrast to the Chinese civilization, the Western civilization wasn't equated with one nation. That has been a great advantage.



The Chinese are facing an even more serious demographic challenge than Europe, because of the single child policy, and you people are masturbating over tourism, as if tourism could even become a threat...

I've criticized the threat that the Europeans could start living completely off the achievements of their ancestors. (Which has already been reality for some parts of Europe.)



Other solutions won't differ significantly from what we have right now. Maybe less corruption, but hardly a different ideal. In the end of the day, the largest part of the E.U. (after the agricultural policy) goes to translation services...

That remains unclear.



The global share of the English-speaking websites is on the decline over the world, but the French are always upset for being in the second place, as usual...

On the internet, French is number 6.



The fallacy is using a Wikipedia page to ascertain an argument.

Unfortunately, I don't have the resources in order to scan and translate whole libraries. So, Wiki is the most cheap and intelligible source we have. This time, it served its purpose quite well.



No, but I speak French. I'm closer to a black Muslim that can speak like a human being than to a bloody boche.

You regard this kind of Creole French as real French? Maybe you should go to an otologist.



I'm not an imperialist, but if there's need of an empire I'll never tolerate one that isn't ours.

Fortunately, the likelihood of a new European empire is rather low.

Rudel
11-27-2013, 04:37 PM
You regard this kind of Creole French as real French? Maybe you should go to an otologist.
The French spoken in Sénégal is standard French :picard2: There isn't créole French outside the island colonies, and most speak normal French besides it.


Fortunately, the likelihood of a new European empire is rather low.
Yes, nations have been entrenched. They're much more resistant political unities than what previous empires had to deal with.

denz
11-27-2013, 04:59 PM
There was a guy who was something like the president of the American scientists - with origins from India - who restricted the total number of original civilizations to 12. The 8 of them were European in origin... The Dutch were entitled to a slot, the Turks were not...

I can't say that I am threatened by Muslims. They might think they have a civilization, but even if it's true, that civilization is already outdated...

You are under an illusion that there are outdated civilization. There are domination or fading of civilization. So, most probably, within a century, their european grandson will do an african street dance which will be a dominated culture...

Caismeachd
11-27-2013, 05:05 PM
I don't think it's dying. People have a bit more piss and vinegar and are outspoken of nationalism and core politics rather than frivolous politics like gay rights or hot topic news reports etc. So it's not dying. The common person is more intertwined with politics than say a place like US, which most people sense is a sinking ship and is in trouble. It depends on the country though. You can't compare the success of Northern Europe with the failure of Southern Europe and assume they are mutually interchangeable. There is corruption of the elite but people are definitely more intertwined, aware and responsible for core politics that shape their lives in Northern Europe than in the United States as a comparison.