Why y-dna R1a1a and I2 are much higher in Greece than southern Italy/Sicily?

[Sikeliot]

There are two arguments for this that I have seen on here, and I thought I would make a separate thread about it so as to not derail the one already going.

Argument 1: These haplogroups were always part of Greece, and are low in southern Italy due to southern Italians not having as much Greek ancestry as originally presumed.

-Sicilians and Calabrese are very high in J2 and about as high in E1b1b as some parts of Greece.. eastern Sicilians are almost completely J2 and E1b1b and thus the concentration of these haplogroups in that specific region is greater than in Greece.
- R1a1a and I2 are very low in southern Italy and Sicily but together comprise around 40% of modern y-dna of northern Greece.


Argument 2: I2 and R1a1a in Greece represent Slavic and/or Balkan admixture that is relatively recent or at least, is more recent than the Greek colonization of southern Italy. Thus, it'd be impossible for these haplogroups to have made it to Sicily and Calabria and thus represent non-Greek ancestry in modern mainland Greeks.


Which do you think is more likely to be true?

[Mark]

Closer to Argument 2. Greece's proximity to Slavic countries where R1a1a is found in a higher percentile.

[Queen B]

Isn't it obvious and logical the first one ?

I mean, what's more possible? That Greeks in Italy managed to stay isolated in a non-Greek area, whereas Greeks in Greece mixed too much, or that Greeks in Italy did mix with locals after more than 2 millenia, and Greeks within Greece, didn't that much ??

I m not any expert on Haplogroups, but I trust more Kabeiros' post , than your theories.

You are, like many others, completely ignorant when it comes to haplogroups and how they are related to ancient or modern peoples.
Haplogroup I2a2 is NOT Slavic but indigenous to the Balkans, that's why Bosnians and Croatians have almost 50% of it, while Russians or other northern Slavs much less of it.
Haplogroup R1a is present in high numbers from Central Asia (Pakistanis, Indians, Turkics etc.) to Eastern Europe (Poles, Russians, Ukrainians) and it's not specific to Slavs either (even Syrians have 10% of this haplogroup for God's shake).
Therefore it is impossible to know just by Y-DNA the ethnicity of someone, let alone of whole nations.

ps I din't even mention things like drift or founder effect, which can change haplogroup distribution in an area in a very short period of time. So please, Sikeliot, don't try to feel good about your self by creating theories with absolutely zero knowledge of genetics, because you only make your self look stupid and naive

[Sikeliot]

Closer to Argument 2. Greece's proximity to Slavic countries where R1a1a is found in a higher percentile.

Some East Sicilian haplogroups:

E1b1b -- 23.68%
J2 -- 28.05%
R1a1a -- 5.26%
R1b -- 18.42%
12 -- 0%

Same haplogroups in Aegean Islanders:

E1b1b -- 20.3%
J2 -- 19.6%
R1a1a -- 7.6%
R1b1b -- 22.8%
I2 -- 11.4%

Sicily has much more J2, but about the same of the others.


Now, northern Greeks:

R1a -- 18.2
R1b -- 13.2
E1b -- 20.6
J2 : 14.9
I2 -- 21.6%

MUCH more I2, R1a, and much less J2 and E1b.

[el22]

Isn't it obvious and logical the first one ?

I mean, what's more possible? That Greeks in Italy managed to stay isolated in a non-Greek area, whereas Greeks in Greece mixed too much, or that Greeks in Italy did mix with locals after more than 2 millenia, and Greeks within Greece, didn't that much ??

I m not any expert on Haplogroups, but I trust more Kabeiros' post , than your theories.

you forget one thing, that greece and slavs (and us) until less than 2 centuries were part of ottoman empire.

[Sikeliot]

^^ you forget one thing, that greece and slavs (and us) until less than 2 centuries were part of ottoman empire.

Yes. Which means during that time, there must have been mixture between them all that has brought Greeks genetically closer to other Balkan people.

[Peyrol]

Obviously J2 in Sicilia is due to the neolithic north african / semithic settlement (Sikanes and Elimi) and recently due to the Sephardits.

[Linet]

You only try to prove the Sicilians are more Greeks than Greeks...sorry but no....
Greeks never liked to mix...i have never met anyone in my life with a grandfatehr or gradmother from another balkan country not even in a %....so dont come tell us what ancestry we have....

PS. I consider Sicilian Greeks but face the fact that not all greek tribes came there....when we are the result of thousant years of mixing between our tribes....OUR TRIBES...not other nations.

[Sikeliot]

Obviously J2 in Sicilia is due to the neolithic north african / semithic settlement (Sikanes and Elimi) and recently due to the Sephardits.


So you don't believe that the very high J2 comes from Greece? I mean, it probably can't now that I look again considering J2 in eastern Sicily is higher than all of Greece except Crete, and it's even higher in western Sicily than much of Greece and there was not as much Greek settlement there.

J2 in western Sicily is probably Phoenician and thus more like what you find in Lebanon.



You only try to prove the Sicilians are more Greeks than Greeks...sorry but no....
Greeks never liked to mix...i have never met anyone in my life with a grandfatehr or gradmother from another balkan country not even in a %....so dont come tell us what ancestry we have....

Then what makes you think Greeks would have mixed in Sicily either? If anything it looks like Normans, Moors, and Romans had only negligible genetic impact, which means they likely left few descendants because the Greek core of the population refused to mix with them.

It IS very possible that northern Greeks were just more Eastern European genetically in antiquity even still and that the divide is ancient.. and not recent. I am unsure.

[Peyrol]

You only try to prove the Sicilians are more Greeks than Greeks...sorry but no....
Greeks never liked to mix...i have never met anyone in my life with a grandfatehr or gradmother from another balkan country not even in a %....so dont come tell us what ancestry we have....

So, why dodecanese an cycladic islanders look pretty much the same of Sicilians and Calabreses, but this don't happen with mainland greeks? Not so many mainland greeks look siculo-calabrese...

[Insuperable]

Isn't it obvious and logical the first one ?

I mean, what's more possible? That Greeks in Italy managed to stay isolated in a non-Greek area, whereas Greeks in Greece mixed too much, or that Greeks in Italy did mix with locals after more than 2 millenia, and Greeks within Greece, didn't that much ??

I m not any expert on Haplogroups, but I trust more Kabeiros' post , than your theories.

Specific clade of I2 called I2a1b or simply Dinaric I which is mostly present in West Balkan to our present knowledge first rose 2500 years ago in North eastern Europe and due to Slavic expansion spread through out Balkans.

p.s.
I would also love if indigenous theory about Croats is true.

[Sikeliot]

So, why dodecanese an cycladic islanders look pretty much the same of Sicilians and Calabreses, but this don't happen with mainland greeks? Not so many mainland greeks look siculo-calabrese...

Because that's what the ancient Greeks looked like, of course. There is a reason Greeks from Greece always ask me if I am Rhodian, Cretan, or from the Dodecanese.

Pontios even said I can pass as Pontian, and they are pretty "pure" Ancient Greek too.

Mainland Greeks look much much closer to Bulgarians, Albanians, Macedonians and even Serbs.

[Queen B]

So, why dodecanese an cycladic islanders look pretty much the same of Sicilians and Calabreses, but this don't happen with mainland greeks? Not so many mainland greeks look siculo-calabrese...
Have you any idea how many of islander live in Athens or urban places?

Athens is a city of 5 million people, which is basically half of Greece's population. :eek::eek: And Athens was just a small village some centuries ago. So , you should all keep in mind, that almost everyone that lives in Athens, is hardly an Athenian, but he can be from EVERYWHERE from Greece. So, why those islanders don't stand out in Athens? Just because they live in Central Greece, they look like Slavs, Albanians or even Serbians? :picard2:

Sikeliot, you know nothing about ''mainland'' Greeks and islanders. Checking photos on facebook, don't make you an expert.I ve told you before.Someone named ''spiridakos'', can't be Athenian or thessalonikian, he is 95% Maniot. Someone with surname -elis, is not from Ionian, he is from Lesbos. And someone named '"vithoulkas'' or ''kakoliris'' is 100% from Zakynthos , etc

Soon enough, I will also make group photos guesses from Greeks all around Greece, and let all you to chose, who is from where. The previous time, almost none answered, and you got them all wrong, except epirotans.

[rashka]

Here are some quotes on the history of the Slavs in Greece.

A number of medieval sources attest to the presence of Slavs in Greece. While en route to the Holy Land in 732, Willibald "reached the city of Monemvasia, in the land of Slavinia". This particular passage from the Vita Willibaldi is interpreted as an indication of a Slavic presence in the hinterland of the Peloponnese. In reference to the plague of 744-747, Constantine VII wrote during the 10th century that "the entire country [of the Peloponnese] was Slavonized". Another source for the period, the Chronicle of Monemvasia speaks of Slavs overrunning the western Peloponnese, but of the eastern Peloponnese, together with Athens, remaining in Byzantine hands throughout this period.

Relations between the Slavs and Greeks were probably peaceful apart from the (supposed) initial settlement and intermittent uprisings. Being agriculturalists, the Slavs probably traded with the Greeks inside towns.Furthermore, the Slavs surely did not occupy the whole interior or eliminate the Greek population; some Greek villages continued to exist in the interior, probably governing themselves, possibly paying tribute to the Slavs. Some villages were probably mixed, and quite possibly some degree of Hellenization of the Slavs by the Greeks of the Peloponnese had already begun during this period, before re-Hellenization was completed by the Byzantine emperors.

[Peyrol]

Have you any idea how many of islander live in Athens or urban places?

Athens is a city of 5 million people, which is basically half of Greece's population. :eek::eek: And Athens was just a small village some centuries ago. So , you should all keep in mind, that almost everyone that lives in Athens, is hardly an Athenian, but he can be from EVERYWHERE from Greece. So, why those islanders don't stand out in Athens? Just because they live in Central Greece, they look like Slavs, Albanians or even Serbians? :picard2:

Sikeliot, you know nothing about ''mainland'' Greeks and islanders. Checking photos on facebook, don't make you an expert.I ve told you before.Someone named ''spiridakos'', can't be Athenian or thessalonikian, he is 95% Maniot. Someone with surname -elis, is not from Ionian, he is from Lesbos. And someone named '"vithoulkas'' or ''kakoliris'' is 100% from Zakynthos , etc

Soon enough, I will also make group photos guesses from Greeks all around Greece, and let all you to chose, who is from where. The previous time, almost none answered, and you got them all wrong, except epirotans.

As i told you some times ago, i been 15 times in your country (i'll probabily return next summer, i want to visit Astypalea, the only dodecanesian island i never seen), mostly in Dodecanese and Cyclades but also in your islands and in the Calcidian Peninsula...all the dodecanesians and cycladics i saw could pass totally unnoticed in Siracusa (Sicilia) or Locri Epizefiri (Calabria), but no one can pass as native here...while in your ionian islands i saw a lot of people who can pass as alpine natives....why?

You know how the italian-greek proverb ''Una faccia una razza'' originated? Was invented by Mario Lago, fascist (and racist) governor of Dodecanese, who noticed ''Dodecanese and (southern) Italians are all member of the same greco-roman race who originated modern West''.

Athens is 30% foreigner if i remember well, but last time i was in Athen was 2002 i was 12 years old and i don't remember so much.

[Queen B]

Athens is 30% foreigner if i remember well, but last time i was in Athen was 2002 i was 12 years old and i don't remember so much.
Athens was 4.000 people after the liberation from Ottomans, and its almost 5.000.000 , two hundred year later. So , Athens is actually the ''pot'' that includes every kind of Greeks. From Ionians, Aegeans, Cretans, Epirotans, and everywhere around Greece.
Athens also have every kind of immigrant you can think of.

[Sikeliot]

The point that Perduellio is making though is that Dodecanese islanders look like southern Italians/Sicilians and mainland Greeks by and large do not.

There are a lot of Greeks in my town in the summer most of whom come from Thessaloniki. When they used to come into my work, my coworkers always thought they were "Russian". Granted, they didn't look Russian but rather Balkan Slavic looking.. but it shows that is how they were perceived.

My mother also when we go to the Greek festival expects to see people who look like classical Greek statues, and instead comments about how some of the people look almost Polish to her.

[Pontios]

Athens was 4.000 people after the liberation from Ottomans, and its almost 5.000.000 , two hundred year later. So , Athens is actually the ''pot'' that includes every kind of Greeks. From Ionians, Aegeans, Cretans, Epirotans, and everywhere around Greece.
Athens also have every kind of immigrant you can think of.

Exaclty, we can see this because even with almost half of Greek population being in Athens, rarely you hear someone say they are Athenians... They all come from other places from Greece to Athens to work.

[Linet]

All Greeks look like them....Why are you in defence - offence all the time?
Sicilians and Calabrians to me....are pure Greeks, no less than i am or Dandelion is. But they havent mixed with all the Greek tribes...sure they will look more to the tribes they originated from....whats so hard to understand? Even ancient Greeks didnt look the same....the one tribe would make jokes about the other tribes appearance etc.

[Sikeliot]

All Greeks look like them....Why are you in defence - offence all the time?
Sicilians and Calabrians to me....are pure Greeks, no less than i am or Dandelion is. But they havent mixed with all the Greek tribes...sure they will look more to the tribes they originated from....whats so hard to understand? Even ancient Greeks didnt look the same....the one tribe would make jokes about the other tribes appearance etc.


So what you'd suggest then is rather that if we look like Dodecanese people, it means the same tribes of Greeks colonized those areas and that the Greeks who don't look like that, are from other ancient tribes?

[Partizan]

So, why dodecanese an cycladic islanders look pretty much the same of Sicilians and Calabreses, but this don't happen with mainland greeks? Not so many mainland greeks look siculo-calabrese...

It is nice you brought some evidence about genetic difference between Islanders and Mainland Greeks.


Another source, the so-called Chronicle of Monembasia, states that in the year 587-8 the Turkic Avars (with whom the Slavs were usually allied)

"captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war; and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they dwelt there. Those who were able to escape their murderous hands were scattered here and there. Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe, the Corinthians to the island of Aegina.... Only the eastern part of the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Cape Maleas, was untouched by the Slavonians because of the rough and inaccessible nature of the country."

There is some doubt concerning the exact date of these events, but it is undeniable that at the end of the sixth century and the beginning of the seventh, when the Danubian frontier completely collapsed, practicallv the entire Balkan peninsula passed out of imperial control. Only a few coastal outposts, such as Mesembria on the Black Sea, Thessalonica, Athens and Corinth, held out. Elsewhere the old population sought refuge on off-shore islands, as it did on Monembasia, or emigrated to Italy. The domain of barbarism extended as far as the outer defences of Constantinople - the so-called Anastasian Long Walls which described a wide arc from the Black Sea to Selymbria (Siliv on the Sea of Marmora - but even these had soon to be abandoned.

The last important Slavonic settlement was that of the Serbs and Croats who in the reign of Heraclius occupied the lands where they still dwell. Then, in 680, came the Turkic Bulgars and conquered the country that bears their name, where they were eventually assimilated by the sitting Slavonic population. The barbarization of the Balkans began to be reversed only towards the ed of the eighth century, but by that time its effects had become permanent.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/mango.asp

Perhaps the true Hellenes migrated to islands during Avar raids and Slavic subjects of Avars might have been settled to mainland Greece.

[Linet]

Yes...
Even me and my brother dont look alike...lets sa i take 10 people and my brother other 10 , all from Sparta, and we create 2 different vilages...and we marry and marry between us :grouphug: ...guess what. In 400 years you ll be able to say who is from where :chin: ...because the intermarriage and close circle has made some characteristics dominant.
So which of us will be less Spartan? :noidea:

[Linet]

Partizan :1099:...I am from Monembasia...watch out what you say :icon_wink:

[rashka]

Here is something interesting. Slavs were mentioned enough that war had to be engaged with them in the year 805. Obviously it seemed to be a problem 1200 years ago.


According to the Chronicle of Monemvasia in 805 the Byzantine governor of Corinth went to war with the Slavs, obliterated them, and allowed the original inhabitants to claim their own; the city of Patras was recovered and the region re-settled with Greeks. By the end of the 9th century most of Greece was culturally and administratively Greek again, with the exception of a few small Slavic tribes in the mountains such as the Melingoi and Ezeritai. Although they were to remain relatively autonomous until Ottoman times, such tribes were the exception rather than the rule.

Apart from military expeditions against Slavs, the re-Hellenization process begun under Nicephorus I involved (often forcible) transfer of peoples. Many Slavs were moved to other parts of the empire, such as Anatolia and made to serve in the military. In return, many Greeks from Sicily and Asia Minor were brought to the interior of Greece, to increase the number of defenders at the Emperor's disposal and dilute the concentration of Slavs.

[Partizan]

Partizan :1099:...I am from Monembasia...watch out what you say :icon_wink:

Take a look at that, sweety:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_Monemvasia

It says nothing bad about your city, perhaps Greeks from Central and North Greece would feel offended though :)

[kabeiros]

Because that's what the ancient Greeks looked like, of course. There is a reason Greeks from Greece always ask me if I am Rhodian, Cretan, or from the Dodecanese. Cretans and Greeks from the Cyclades are probably among the purest Greeks, although they have some Italian influence


Pontios even said I can pass as Pontian, and they are pretty "pure" Ancient Greek too. Didn't you say that Anatolian Greeks have mixed with the natives of Anatolia and they can't be considered pure Greeks? But now that Pontios told you that you can pass as a Pontian (I told you the exact same thing a couple of months ago, if you remember) you think that we are pure ancient Greeks?


Mainland Greeks look much much closer to Bulgarians, Albanians, Macedonians and even Serbs. No one denies the fact that Slavs and Albanians have settled in Greece, but you people make it sound like Greeks were vanished after they came in, which is totally absurd. And keep in mind that mainland Greeks look like them not only because Alboz and Slavs settled here but also because they are mixed with Greeks too.

[Partizan]

Here is something interesting. Slavs were mentioned enough that war had to be engaged with them in the year 805. Obviously it seemed to be a problem 1200 years ago.


According to the Chronicle of Monemvasia in 805 the Byzantine governor of Corinth went to war with the Slavs, obliterated them, and allowed the original inhabitants to claim their own; the city of Patras was recovered and the region re-settled with Greeks. By the end of the 9th century most of Greece was culturally and administratively Greek again, with the exception of a few small Slavic tribes in the mountains such as the Melingoi and Ezeritai. Although they were to remain relatively autonomous until Ottoman times, such tribes were the exception rather than the rule.

Apart from military expeditions against Slavs, the re-Hellenization process begun under Nicephorus I involved (often forcible) transfer of peoples. Many Slavs were moved to other parts of the empire, such as Anatolia and made to serve in the military. In return, many Greeks from Sicily and Asia Minor were brought to the interior of Greece, to increase the number of defenders at the Emperor's disposal and dilute the concentration of Slavs.

I can't understand, how can they de-Slavize Greece if they settled too much? :confused: A large amount of Slavs might have been Hellenized instead?

[Midori]

Both. I don't know what you mean by ''Balkan'' ancestry though, since Greeks are Balkan people themselves.

[Sikeliot]

Both. I don't know what you mean by ''Balkan'' ancestry though, since Greeks are Balkan people themselves.

When I say Balkan ancestry, I mean they have ancestry that arrived later from other Balkan regions.

[Onur]

northern Greeks:

R1a -- 18.2
R1b -- 13.2
E1b -- 20.6
J2 : 14.9
I2 -- 21.6%

MUCH more I2, R1a, and much less J2 and E1b.
Sikeloit, you have to consider that the half of northern Greece are Anatolian immigrants. Around 90% of these immigrants has been settled into Aegean Macedonia by the Greek state, which makes about 900.000 people. Macedonia`s population was around 1,2 million and it reached around two million after the Anatolian immigrants.

Your question can only be answered by comparing northern Greece with the Macedonia and doing a DNA test specifically for the Anatolian immigrants of northern Greece.

Here is the Macedonia`s DNA results;

Macedonia
I2 -- 18
R1a -- 13.5
R1b -- 13.5
E1b -- 23
J2 -- 12

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I don't know for sure but i think most of the Anatolian immigrants was J2, R1b and E1b. Their contribution to DNA of northern Greece must have reduced I2 input but increase J2, E1b and R1b. If we totally isolate Anatolian immigrants from there, i am sure the DNA results of northern Greece would totally correlate with neighboring Macedonia. Despite the Anatolian immigrant contribution, it still correlates with Macedonia today.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, which shows Macedonian Greeks are not "pure Greeks" while Macedonians (the Slavic ones) are Slavic invaders. :lol:

[Midori]

If we totally isolate Anatolian immigrants from there, i am sure the DNA results of northern Greece would totally correlate with neighboring Macedonia.

Geographical proximity = genetic similarity

[Sikeliot]

Geographical proximity = genetic similarity

Not if the claim that Macedonians are Slavic invaders is true.. which as we know it is not.

[Linet]

not pure Greeks? :picard1:
The Anatolians, the soon to be bald :heh:, Mister Onur refers to, are Pontians... pure Greeks :hug2: and famous big-heads :D since ancient times :old

[Midori]

Not if the claim that Macedonians are Slavic invaders is true.. which as we know it is not.

Well they speak a Slavic language which obviously means that they're Slavs. But invaders? Nah, most of their genes are native Balkan

Slavs settled as far South as Peloponnese so modern Greeks have some Slavic/Eastern European blood too

[Onur]

Geographical proximity = genetic similarity
OK, then tell me why these so-called northern Greeks totally correlates with Macedonia while they don't correlate much with central Greece or northwestern side, so-called Epirus? They are neighbors too.

[Linet]

Slavs are Slavs, Greeks are no Slavs, Macedonians were and are Greeks,so Slavs cant be Macedonians. That easy... except if Slavs are Greeks...that they arent....simple as that :wink

[Linet]

OK, then tell me why these so-called northern Greeks totally correlates with Macedonia while they don't correlate much with central Greece or northwestern side, so-called Epirus? They are neighbors too.


Macedonians are Greeks....ok? read history :book2:....

[kabeiros]

I don't know for sure but i think most of the Anatolian immigrants was J2, R1b and E1b. By admitting that Anatolian immigrants were J2, R1b and E1b1b you admit that Anatolian Greeks are pure ancient Greeks, because this are the main haplogroups of S/Italians and Sicilians, Onur. Therefore your idiotic theory of our Turkishness collapses :D:D:D

[kabeiros]

Not if the claim that Macedonians are Slavic invaders is true.. which as we know it is not. Fyromians are not Slavic invaders but mostly natives of their land, ancient Paeonia

[Sikeliot]

OK, then tell me why these so-called northern Greeks totally correlates with Macedonia while they don't correlate much with central Greece or northwestern side, so-called Epirus? They are neighbors too.

Epirus would correlate better with Albania probably.

Anyway I used to assume Pontic and Anatolian Greeks were mixed more with Anatolians but I have been convinced otherwise.

[Linet]

Make a party on your own :thumbs...this has become too offensive :Bondage1: to stay to look at and i wont continue :stop00010: trying to prove i am not an elephant...:no no

[kabeiros]

Epirus would correlate better with Albania probably.Sikeliot, I have been wondering for a long time now, is there even the slightest possibility that you are a Turk who pretends to be Sicilian? Because most of the Sicilians that I have met (in person or on line) are not obsessed with Greeks, neither do they try to make Greeks non-Greeks just to feel good about themselves.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot, I have been wondering for a long time now, is there even the slightest possibility that you are a Turk who pretends to be Sicilian? Because most of the Sicilians that I have met (in person or on line) are not obsessed with Greeks, neither do they try to make Greeks non-Greeks just to feel good about themselves.

I'm not Turkish.

But it is because of my ancestry that I am able to have the insight to make the claims I have made about Greek islanders versus mainlanders. I recognize a familiarity to Dodecanese, Cretan etc. Greeks but when I see people from Epirus, Thessaloniki, and the Peloponnese, I don't see people who look familiar to me.

[kabeiros]

.Anyway I used to assume Pontic and Anatolian Greeks were mixed more with Anatolians but I have been convinced otherwise. Ok, you are a joke, it's not even worth to respond to your nonsense anymore

[Sikeliot]

Ok, you are a joke, it's not even worth to respond to your nonsense anymore

No, you are.. accusing me of being Turkish because I have an opinion you do not like, one that is shared by others on the forum even?

[Linet]

If you feel Greek, you should act like one, but you act like you hate Hellenism....guess what...no Greek, ancient or recent would ever do that, they would gie their lives for this country and for blaphemies like those you spread not to be heard....

[Sikeliot]

If you feel Greek, you should act like one, but you act like you hate Hellenism....guess what...no Greek, ancient or recent would ever do that, they would gie their lives for this country and for blaphemies like those you spread not to be heard....

I consider all Greeks to be Greek of course.
But I am not going to pretend that all Greeks are purely Ancient Greek, when that is not the truth.

There was a poster on ABF who was from the Peloponnese and he was genetically very Eastern European influenced.

[kabeiros]

No, you are.. accusing me of being Turkish because I have an opinion you do not like, one that is shared by others on the forum even? Firstly, calling you a Turk is not an accusation, I didn't call you a thieve or a murderer.
Secondly you are a joke because you change your opinion very easily, probably because you talk about things that you don't know anything about and you are forced to change your opinion when ever someone exposes your ignorance.
And lastly, your view is shared by people who have a bias against Greeks, like Turks or Alboz, so it's not worth to even debate with all of you. Chears!

[Linet]

Thats up to your opinion and nothing else....
Anyway...side with Onur :baby2000: ...thats the Greekest thing you can do :thumbs:
I agree you have Greek blood :rose: I cant take that away from you....but that blood you betray it....have fun with that

[Sikeliot]

But isn't an important aspect of Greek history the idea of Hellenizing people and making them Greek? Just read the Jewish story of Hanukkah.. the Greek rulers wanted to Hellenize the Jews and make them culturally Greek, who in turn resisted..

Therefore, it is not anti-Greek to say that some modern Greeks are descended from Hellenized people and not purely ancient Greek!

[Sikeliot]

And lastly, your view is shared by people who have a bias against Greeks, like Turks or Alboz, so it's not worth to even debate with all of you. Chears!

And Italians.
The Italian posters here have all confirmed that Greeks from the mainland do not look like people they are used to seeing in the south of Italy, but that Dodecanese islanders fit perfectly.

[Linet]

Hellenise in manners...not mix with them. Alexander the Great forced 300 of his generals to marry noble young women from Persia in order to have the Persian loyalty....guess what happened after his death....they all divorced them...all except one and they married to greek girls....thas was the Greek mentality. Make them like us, because we have superior manners but dont mix with them...we are hellenes, they are not.
Isocrates the greatest supporter of Phillip. The one who said that what makes one Greek is his culture....when he got visitors from Skythia, he refused them to ender his house. When they told him that Zeus protected the foreigners and he had to give them hospitality he said yes...the foreign Greeks, thats our custom. He only let them into the house after Anaharsis gave him his paternal side geneology, that was Greek. So sure...make them like Greeks ...thats all. Your Messina family all these millenium stood for what you do now? Thats what you think? I believe not...

[kabeiros]

I'm not Turkish.

But it is because of my ancestry that I am able to have the insight to make the claims I have made about Greek islanders versus mainlanders. I recognize a familiarity to Dodecanese, Cretan etc. Greeks but when I see people from Epirus, Thessaloniki, and the Peloponnese, I don't see people who look familiar to me.And who made you an ideal of pure unmixed Greeks? :confused:

[Sikeliot]

Hellenise in manners...not mix with them.


Then why can't some in Greece today be Hellenized culturally and assimilated, and not actually mixed?

And what I was saying was that Greeks in Sicily assimilated the indigenous populations and the Phoenicians, and then after that, every invading group (Romans, Moors, Normans) left only a negligible genetic impact, and the Italians who settled were from other former Greek colonies (Calabria, Naples) to repopulate formerly Moorish areas.

When you are on an island that is constantly invaded, you have a tendency to become xenophobic. That is what happened.

[Sikeliot]

And who made you an ideal of pure unmixed Greeks? :confused:

Let's see. Pontic Greeks, Anatolian Greeks, Dodecanese islanders, Cretans, Sicilians, Calabrese all look fairly similar. Many mainland Greeks deviate from this appearance, and look more Balkan. I wonder why!

[Linet]

Έχει Ελληνική καταγωγή από τη Μεσσίνα. Το θέμα είναι ότι προδίδει όλα όσα αντιπροσωπεύουν αυτοί οι άνθρωποι που ακόμα και σήμερα επιμένουν να μιλάνε Ελληνικά. Τα παίρνει και τα πετάει στα σκουπίδια.... το πρόβλημα του είναι να μην θιχτεί η Ελληνικότητα του, γι' αυτό και στέλνει στην Σλαβοαλβανία ό,τι δεν μοιάζει με αυτόν και τους Νοτιοιταλούς συνέλληνες.

[kabeiros]

Let's see. Pontic Greeks, Anatolian Greeks, Dodecanese islanders, Cretans, Sicilians, Calabrese all look fairly similar. Many mainland Greeks deviate from this appearance, and look more Balkan. I wonder why!Two days ago you thought that Anatolian Greeks are mixed, today you think that they are pure, and why... because someone told you that you could pass as a Pontic Greek. I rest my case

[Sikeliot]

Two days ago you thought that Anatolian Greeks are mixed, today you think that they are pure, and why... because someone told you that you could pass as a Pontic Greek. I rest my case

Because on some PCA plots there are Greeks in the Anatolian cluster.. I always assumed it was Anatolian Greeks but maybe it is Cypriots since they have extra West Asian affinity.

[kabeiros]

Έχει Ελληνική καταγωγή από τη Μεσσίνα. Το θέμα είναι ότι προδίδει όλα όσα αντιπροσωπεύουν αυτοί οι άνθρωποι που ακόμα και σήμερα επιμένουν να μιλάνε Ελληνικά. Τα παίρνει και τα πετάει στα σκουπίδια.... το πρόβλημα του είναι να μην θιχτεί η Ελληνικότητα του, γι' αυτό και στέλνει στην Σλαβοαλβανία ό,τι δεν μοιάζει με αυτόν και τους Νοτιοιταλούς συνέλληνες.Αμφιβάλλω Linet, έχει αλλάξει 150 γνώμες από τότε που τον πρωτοσυνάντησα. Την μια μου λέει ότι οι Μικρασιάτες δεν είναι Έλληνες, την άλλη μου λέει ότι είναι ''καθαροί'' Έλληνες επειδή κάποιος του είπε πως του μοιάζουν :picard2:
Έχει ξεκινήσει threads όπου προσπαθεί να μας πείσει ότι οι Κύπριοι είναι Λιβανέζοι/Άραβες και παρ'όλο που οι Κύπριοι μοιάζουν υπερβολικά με τους Ροδίτες, μας παρουσιάζει τους Ροδίτες ως αυθεντικούς πεντακάθαρους Έλληνες :picard1:
Το θέμα είναι ότι αλλάζει την άποψη του με μοναδικό γνώμονα το να παρουσιάσει κάποια μερίδα των Ελλήνων ως μη Έλληνες, έτσι βγάζει τους Πόντιους Έλληνες για να μας πείσει ότι οι Μακεδόνες δεν είναι Έλληνες και κατόπιν βγάζει τους Πελοποννήσιους Έλληνες για να μας πείσει ότι οι Πόντιοι δεν είναι Έλληνες. Δεν αξίζει ούτε να ασχολείσαι με αυτά τα κατακάθια

[Peyrol]

All Greeks look like them....Why are you in defence - offence all the time?
Sicilians and Calabrians to me....are pure Greeks, no less than i am or Dandelion is. But they havent mixed with all the Greek tribes...sure they will look more to the tribes they originated from....whats so hard to understand? Even ancient Greeks didnt look the same....the one tribe would make jokes about the other tribes appearance etc.

Why you greek always take as ''offence and attack'' any kind of discussion about your ethnogenesis?
It's only a pacific discussion about your people and your relatives in former Magna graecia.

[Peyrol]

Then why can't some in Greece today be Hellenized culturally and assimilated, and not actually mixed?

And what I was saying was that Greeks in Sicily assimilated the indigenous populations and the Phoenicians, and then after that, every invading group (Romans, Moors, Normans) left only a negligible genetic impact, and the Italians who settled were from other former Greek colonies (Calabria, Naples) to repopulate formerly Moorish areas.

When you are on an island that is constantly invaded, you have a tendency to become xenophobic. That is what happened.

...and not only: Syracuse was colonized by about only 6000 corinthians led by Arkhyas: within 2 generation, those people began to overrun all the new city's coast, forcin the antive Sikules to moving to the interior of the Island.

[Gospodine]

I2 and it's subclades haven't been conclusively proven to be linked to any particular branch of Slavic speakers.

R1a1 is a diagnostic Indo-European marker (as evidenced by mummies excavated from the Andronovo culture circa 2000BC who were all mostly R1a1). Again has nothing to do with Slavs per se.

The reason they're both found in Greece and not Sicily and Southern Italy is because there's a thing called the Adriatic Sea and the Alps, that stops gene flow from continuing beyond the Balkan peninsula into Italy.

[Sikeliot]

The reason they're both found in Greece and not Sicily and Southern Italy is because there's a thing called the Adriatic Sea and the Alps, that stops gene flow from continuing beyond the Balkan peninsula into Italy.


But with all of the ancient Greek migration that took place, how did they manage not to bring I2 and R1a1a in larger quantities to southern Italy?

[Roy]

I agree with you Sikeliot. I think that R1/I2 come from much older times and can't be the result of slavic influx mainly. That was just the initial part of their haplogroup set. I don't how to refer to absence/low presence of it in Italy though, but such things can be almost totally random and we cannot omit it when we discuss about it, because new populations with different, divergent haplogroups can be very similar from autosomal point of view.

So i doubt also whether this deny huge greek genetic influx to this regions.

[Sikeliot]

I am R1a1a myself and for Sicilian that makes me an anomaly. :lol:

[Gospodine]

But with all of the ancient Greek migration that took place, how did they manage not to bring I2 and R1a1a in larger quantities to southern Italy?

Because the Greeks colonized Sicily from about 750BC to 200BC.

R1a migrations beyond the Carpathians happened much later (Iranic steppe nomads, Slavs and Germanic tribes stayed largely well beyond the Dnieper basin before the 4th century AD). The Greeks who founded Sicily were different genetically to modern Greeks.

R1a had always been in that region since the Neolithic, as had I2, but in different proportions to today's concentrations.

It's likely that even if R1a/I2 had been brought over in any significant concentrations when the Greeks arrived it was likely mitigated by the arrival of Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Arabs and other Near Easterners.

[Sikeliot]

Because the Greeks colonized Sicily from about 750BC to 200BC.

R1a migrations beyond the Carpathians happened much later. The Greeks who founded Sicily were different genetically to modern Greeks.

R1a had always been in that region since the Neolithic, as had I2, but in different proportions to today's concentrations.

It's likely that even if R1a/I2 had been brought over in any significant concentrations when the Greeks arrived it was likely mitigated by the arrival of Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Arabs and other Near Easterners.

Phoenicians and Carthaginians were there before the Greeks were. So it could be possible that the Greeks, in the process of assimilating them, absorbed their genetics and therefore reduced the amount of R1a and I2 that ended up part of the end result population. One of the posters here also said that the Greeks brought Assyrians over to guard the coasts, so that also could have reduced the amount of these haplogroups and raised the amount of J2 and G, both of which are common in the east of the island.

[Gospodine]

Prehistoric Neolithic Sicily (before 2000BC) wouldn't have had any R1a whatsoever.

They would have been of Otzi the Iceman-type, Paleo-Sardinian stock.

[Sikeliot]

Prehistoric Neolithic Sicily (before 2000BC) wouldn't have had any R1a whatsoever.

They would have been of Otzi the Iceman-type, Paleo-Sardinian stock.

When would the original prehistoric wave of West Asian Neolithic migrants have come?

[Gospodine]

Phoenicians and Carthaginians were there before the Greeks were.

The Phoenicians reached their peak in the 3rd century BC, long after the Greeks settled the entire place. And besides they only settled the Western corner of the Island.

Carthage was an off-shoot of the Phoenicians who remained in modern-day Tunisia after their Levantine city-states fell; they were kicked out of Sicily after the Second Punic War in 200BC.

[Geni]

R1a...+I2 are slavic....Grecce + all Ballkans..have a important % slavic blood...is normal....the great slavic invasion...

[Sikeliot]

The Phoenicians reached their peak in the 3rd century BC, long after the Greeks settled the entire place. And besides they only settled the Western corner of the Island.

Carthage was an off-shoot of the Phoenicians who remained in modern-day Tunisia after their Levantine city-states fell; they were kicked out of Sicily after the Second Punic War in 200BC.

I thought the Phoenicians originally held more of the coast than just the west.. but the Greeks pushed them westwards when they got there and limited Phoenician power to Palermo and Trapani.

[Gospodine]

R1a...+I2 are slavic....Grecce + all Ballkans..have a important % slavic blood...is normal....the great slavic invasion...

Rubbish.

Both predate the arrival of the Slavs.

[Linet]

Only Slavs and Turks agree with you and its easy to see why :chin:.
The fox :kitty000: that had her tail cut from the hunder was trying to convince the other foxes that a tail is overated and they should cut their tails too :thumb001:. Sorry, i wont cut mine and my nations tail just because the whole forest has lost their tails. We are a very stabborn nation :banghead: that did not mix and always hated to mix unlike the habbits of the rest of the nations.

PS:Just wondering, are Spartans Greeks or i have to start searching for my Slavic relatives :chin:?


Why you greek always take as ''offence and attack'' any kind of discussion about your ethnogenesis?
It's only a pacific discussion about your people and your relatives in former Magna graecia.

Our ethnogenesis :blink:? We had no such thing :no: ....we didnt pop out suddently, we go back at time for few milelniums and our history is well documented :book2: .
Also is not a discussion to attack a nation based on how you look (in this case how Sleepytigers himself look). Nobody here doubts the Greekness :rose2: of South Italy and Sicily but he comes to tell us that half Greece is not Greece and that we just dont know about it? We have parents and grandparents :grouphug: and we know where we came from and our families history to an extent :old . Or only you can know where your ancestors were from but we cant and our memory is that of a Goldfish :fish:?
So i just say for one last time....Magna Greacia had colonies from specific Greek tribes, not from every Greek tribe. They are the result of those people when we are the result of everyone.

[Geni]

Rubbish.

Both predate the arrival of the Slavs.

Are you Illyrians + Helenes ??Are you Pelasgians ?

[Sikeliot]

I was just trying to see why there is the genetic discrepancy.. whatever you guys say I will end up looking at with an open mind.

[Linet]

The Phoenicians reached their peak in the 3rd century BC, long after the Greeks settled the entire place. And besides they only settled the Western corner of the Island.

Carthage was an off-shoot of the Phoenicians who remained in modern-day Tunisia after their Levantine city-states fell; they were kicked out of Sicily after the Second Punic War in 200BC.


+++++++++++++++ :rose:



Prehistoric Neolithic Sicily (before 2000BC) wouldn't have had any R1a whatsoever.

They would have been of Otzi the Iceman-type, Paleo-Sardinian stock.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ :rose2:



Rubbish.

Both predate the arrival of the Slavs.


:fbard: :humble:
....:love0031:......

[Prince Carlo]

Campania almost lacks E-V13 so very low Greek ancestry here.

[Sikeliot]

Campania almost lacks E-V13 so very low Greek ancestry here.

Even in Naples? What about J2 in Campania?

J2 reaches 36% in Calabria, but I am unsure if it is mostly of Greek origin there or something else.

[Prince Carlo]

Even in Naples?

E-V13 among Campanians on FTDNA and a recent peer-rewieved study is about 5-10%.


What about J2 in Campania?

J2 reaches 36% in Calabria, but I am unsure if it is mostly of Greek origin there or something else.

J2 is 20% in Campania.

[Artek]

Well, they should make a subclade study in Greece about R1a. Markers like M458 or Z280 are rather coming from a Slavs, whereas Z93 could be Greek.
Without this informaton, we couldn't be sure.

But what's obvious, continental Greeks are surely Slavic influenced.
Sicilian ones represent old Greek stock, with another haplogroup distribution.

[jerney]

I'm not Turkish.

But it is because of my ancestry that I am able to have the insight to make the claims I have made about Greek islanders versus mainlanders. I recognize a familiarity to Dodecanese, Cretan etc. Greeks but when I see people from Epirus, Thessaloniki, and the Peloponnese, I don't see people who look familiar to me.

But you have never been to Greece..

[Onur]

But isn't an important aspect of Greek history the idea of Hellenizing people and making them Greek? Just read the Jewish story of Hanukkah.. the Greek rulers wanted to Hellenize the Jews and make them culturally Greek, who in turn resisted..

Therefore, it is not anti-Greek to say that some modern Greeks are descended from Hellenized people and not purely ancient Greek!
If you don't share their views of twisted version of neo-hellenism, then modern Greeks will always accuse you by being a Turk and anti-Greek. This is their usual ideological reflex.

[Linet]

If you don't share their views of twisted version of neo-hellenism, then modern Greeks will always accuse you by being a Turk and anti-Greek. This is their usual ideological reflex.

Well yes :), we are allergic to bs :icon_bs:.
...Its a very hellenic national characteristic since ancient times :wink
Thats why we stayed pure :bath:

[Queen B]

No one denies the fact that Slavs and Albanians have settled in Greece, but you people make it sound like Greeks were vanished after they came in, which is totally absurd. And keep in mind that mainland Greeks look like them not only because Alboz and Slavs settled here but also because they are mixed with Greeks too.
Haven't you realized that this is what they are trying to say all that time? :lol:


I recognize a familiarity to Dodecanese, Cretan etc. Greeks but when I see people from Epirus, Thessaloniki, and the Peloponnese, I don't see people who look familiar to me.
You aren't even able to tell them apart :picard1:

[kabeiros]

E-V13 among Campanians on FTDNA and a recent peer-rewieved study is about 5-10%.. E-V13 is even lower among Sicilians, it is approximately 5-6%. That's why Cavalli Sforza calculated the Greek influence at about 30%

ps R1a1a is also 5-6% in Sicily, it's not insignificant

[Prince Carlo]

E-V13 is even lower among Sicilians, it is approximately 5-6%. That's why Cavalli Sforza calculated the Greek influence at about 30%

^ Source?

[Peyrol]

E-V13 is even lower among Sicilians, it is approximately 5-6%. That's why Cavalli Sforza calculated the Greek influence at about 30%

ps R1a1a is also 5-6% in Sicily, it's not insignificant

Nope, this is the C.F. map of greek influence in the qhole Peninsula:

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3103/mappageneticaitalia.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/197/mappageneticaitalia.jpg/)

[kabeiros]

^ Source?
''Differential Greek and Northern African migrations to Sicily are supported by genetic evidence from the Y chromosome''
Di Gaetano et.al

Haplogroup E1b1b is 18% in Sicily:

E-V13 = 5.9
E-M123 = 4.7
E-V22 = 3.8
E-M81 = 2.1
E-V12 = 1.3
E-V65 = 0.4

It's obvious that Sicilians have Levantine (E-M123, E-V22) and Northern African (E-M81, E-V12, E-V65) influence which is almost absent in Greece and they can't be used as a fossilized ancient Greek population to whom we should compare other populations in order to check their Greekness. You see I never talk out of my ass like some other posters here, I talk with facts

[kabeiros]

No one responded to my previous post yet, why?
Well Sikeliot, do you still think that you are more Greek than Greeks themselves????

[Gospodine]

When would the original prehistoric wave of West Asian Neolithic migrants have come?

Probably with the Elymians, Sicani and Sicels who were theorized to have been even more chronologically distant immigrants from the Aegean (perhaps Anatolian coast) who introduced the Neolithic Farming Revolution to Sicily. Forget when; remnants have been dated all the way back to 8000BC but that's a little too early for Sicilians to start farming given that it had barely reached the Levant by then.

They would have encountered the Paleo-Sardinian, Proto-Med people who flourished on Mediterranean Islands in the late Paleolithic (like the Megalith-builders on Malta) and thus likely introduced the first Near Eastern genes to the island.

It's likely they were part of the Tyrsenian language family, of which Etruscian, Raetic and Lemnian are a part of (and we all know what significant influence the Etruscans had on the Italic tribes), and which have been tentatively linked to EteoCretan (Linear A and Linear B) and EteoCypriot.

Basically; (this is my speculation here) the Paleo-Sardinians who were likely cousins of the proto-Basques (there have been a lot of connections demonstrated in recent years) dominated the Western Mediterranean in Old Pre-IE Europe, while the Eastern Med was dominated by a distantly-related continuum of Tyrsenian speakers who probably originated in Anatolia (the Etruscan-Anatolian hypothesis) who formed the Pre-Greek substrate (evidenced by a lot of maritime/agricultural vocabularly that found its way into Ancient Greek).

This would fit into the jigsaw puzzle of pre-IE Europe quite well.

[Peyrol]

North African admistre is neolithic as Gospodine said; just a precisation...the Sikels weren't anatolians, but indoeuropean related both with latins and ancient venetics.

[kabeiros]

North African admistre is neolithic as Gospodine said; just a precisation...the Sikels weren't anatolians, but indoeuropean related both with latins and ancient venetics.You said that I was wrong about E-V13 in Sicily and you posted a map with the Greek genetic influence in Italy. Do you still think that I'm wrong? You and Joseph should be men enough to admit that you don't know much about Italian genetics and that your views are shaped by other factors

[Peyrol]

You said that I was wrong about E-V13 in Sicily and you posted a map with the Greek genetic influence in Italy. Do you still think that I'm wrong? You and Joseph should be men enough to admit that you don't know much about Italian genetics and that your views are shaped by other factors

My map is the reconstructed presumed greek influence in the peninsula, i never talked about E-V13 or something similar.

[kabeiros]

Nope, this is the C.F. map of greek influence in the qhole Peninsula:

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3103/mappageneticaitalia.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/197/mappageneticaitalia.jpg/) This is your reply to my post about E-V13 in Sicily, please be honest

[Peyrol]

This is your reply to my post about E-V13 in Sicily, please be honest

:picard1:

The ''nope'' was referred to your part ''greek influence is very low'', not about E-V13.

[kabeiros]

:picard1:

The ''nope'' was referred to your part ''greek influence is very low'', not about E-V13.
Where did I say that

:picard2::picard1:

[safinator]

R1a in Greece isn't entirely Slavic since an important part could have been bringed by IE migrations.
I2a1b is entirely Slavic though.

[kabeiros]

I2a1b is entirely Slavic though.Unlikely, they recently found I2a1b among the Griko community of Salento. It ruined the theory of I2a-Din being of Slavic origin

[Gospodine]

I2a1b is entirely Slavic though.

Amazing how it's concentrated in frequencies that you can't find for any other Y-DNA Hg in Dalmatia and Herzegovina, over 2,500kms away from the supposed Slavic Urheimat.

That makes a lot of sense.

So either the mighty, unconquerable Slavs (who were pretty much dominated by everyone from Iranian tribes to Turkic tribes the moment they became a distinct group) crossed the Carpathians, settled the Former Yugoslavia so thoroughly that they completely replaced the indigenous population (a feat that has no parallel in history; even by tenfold more advanced civilizations) or I2a1b expanded from the Balkans to elsewhere.

Which is more likely?

[safinator]

I2a1b obiously expanded with Slavs into Balkans according to TMRCA and diversity clusters.

[Gospodine]

I2a1b obiously expanded with Slavs into Balkans according to TMRCA and diversity clusters.

According to one man who stands on his own; Albania's favourite Ken Nordtvedt.

[StonyArabia]

Slavic admixture clearly

[Linet]

Gospodine ....:fbard:

[Artek]

I2a1b is entirely Slavic though.
What the hell did I just read ;D

[Panopticon]

Unlikely, they recently found I2a1b among the Griko community of Salento. It ruined the theory of I2a-Din being of Slavic origin

Many of which migrated to Italy long after the Slavic migrations into the Balkans. It does not ruin it as much as it just reiterates the fact that I2a1b exists and existed among Greeks.

The peak diversity of I2a2 is around Moldova, southern Ukraine and northern Romania. This succinctly proves that it indeed originates somewhere north of the Balkans - somewhere around Moldova, for precision's sake.

[Artek]

Many of whichhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture migrated to Italy long after the Slavic migrations into the Balkans. It does not ruin it as much as it just reiterates the fact that I2a1b exists and existed among Greeks.

The peak diversity of I2a2 is around Moldova, southern Ukraine and northern Romania. This succinctly proves that it indeed originates somewhere north of the Balkans; somewhere around Moldova to be more specific.

"The high concentration of I2a1b in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture before it was swallowed by the Indo-European Corded Ware culture."

[Dacul]

Are you sure there is not some R1A1 from North Europe from varangians also?
Greek women do not want to admit,but it seems they liked very much balkanic and slavic men.
Seems a lot of greek women cheated their greek men.

[Queen B]

Are you sure there is not some R1A1 from North Europe from varangians also?
Greek women do not want to admit,but it seems they liked very much balkanic and slavic men.
Seems a lot of greek women cheated their greek men.

:picard2: What do I read?

[Mans not hot]

:picard2: What do I read?
You like Slavic guy, especially me. ;)

[Panopticon]

"The high concentration of I2a1b in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture before it was swallowed by the Indo-European Corded Ware culture."

Yet I2a1b is only approximately 2500 years old. Diversity is more important than concentration for pointing out origins. With that said, it does resemble it.

Another point: As a rule, I2a1b tends to exist alongside R1a. Its concentrations are also largest in Slavic speaking areas or Slavic influenced areas.

[safinator]

According to one man who stands on his own; Albania's favourite Ken Nordtvedt.
Better than you and other pseudo smartass Internet geneticists ;)

[Duke]

Better than you and other pseudo smartass Internet geneticists ;)

look at butthurt sqipetar LOL


.....


So what is Geek, E, and J came from Levant or North Africa, and Greek were supposed to be IE???

If they are ancient and unmixed, as they propagate here, there would certainly be lot less diversity among them(they are as diverse as Albanians), which means they are composed from various stock, however, process of Hellenization by itself included assimilation of different people into Greeks.
I would guess that Hellenization diversified southern Balkan the most, and Greeks became minority Elite, which Romans replaced later on.


There is also a Roman-Byzantine empire, which was huge and drew lots of people from MENA, and Central/West Europe, since they never manage to conquer East.
Later on East conqured them.

I still think Conqured provide more gene flow then Conqurers who are mostly soldiers and bureaucrats, like we can see in west Europe colonies, from which now those conqured immigrate into conquring W. European countries more and more

[Linet]

look at butthurt sqipetar LOL


.....


So what is Geek, E, and J came from Levant or North Africa, and Greek were supposed to be IE???

If they are ancient and unmixed, as they propagate here, there would certainly be lot less diversity among them(they are as diverse as Albanians), which means they are composed from various stock, however, process of Hellenization by itself included assimilation of different people into Greeks.
I would guess that Hellenization diversified southern Balkan the most, and Greeks became minority Elite, which Romans replaced later on.


There is also a Roman-Byzantine empire, which was huge and drew lots of people from MENA, and Central/west Europe, since they never manage to conquer East.
Later on East conqured them.

I still think Conqured provide more gene flow then Conqurers who are mostly soldiers, like we can see in west Europe colonies, from which now those conqured immigrate into patron W. European countries more and more

Sorry that we remained pure :cry2.....i suppose is hard to accept it when you are heavily mixed :chin: and not local at your motherland :desert:

[Duke]

Sorry that we remained pure :cry2.....i suppose is hard to accept it when you are heavily mixed :chin: and not local at your motherland :desert:

but we are not pure, niether are you, no one is actually, but you guys are way more diverse, thuss way less pure.


There is possibility real Greeks died off because they all became raging homosexuals :D jk.

[Sikeliot]

It's obvious that Sicilians have Levantine (E-M123, E-V22) and Northern African (E-M81, E-V12, E-V65) influence which is almost absent in Greece and they can't be used as a fossilized ancient Greek population to whom we should compare other populations in order to check their Greekness. You see I never talk out of my ass like some other posters here, I talk with facts

None of those haplogroups exist in Greece?

North African E1b, if not from the Moors, might be due to the Sicanians who were said to be related to ancient Iberians and North Africans. E1b in Iberia is of the North African variety too.

[Artek]

Better than you and other pseudo smartass Internet geneticists ;)
Implying that all I2a1b in Greece is Slavic is qualified to be dumbass.

This haplo predates any existence of slavic cultures and got spread because invaders haven't slaughtered all of those Neolithic/Paleolithic bastards, just assimilated them well. Certain SNP's are "slavic",but obviously not ALL of them.

Or, you should explain this...
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6623/lawl.gif

[Panopticon]

Implying that all I2a1b in Greece is Slavic is qualified to be dumbass.

This haplo predates any existence of slavic cultures and got spread because invaders haven't slaughtered all of those Neolithic/Paleolithic bastards, just assimilated them well. Certain SNP's are "slavic",but obviously not ALL of them.

Or, you should explain this...
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6623/lawl.gif

That's a map of I2a1, not I2a1b, which is a more specific haplogroup. Straw-man and rather irrelevant.

[Artek]

That's a map of I2a1, not I2a1b, which is a more specific haplogroup. Straw-man and rather irrelevant.
I made this map "for the lulz", just to point out a partially wrong thinking of safinator. I2a1b tends to be Slavic but it's not generally the Slavic one.
I know that's a map of I2a1, anybody blind sitting there...

[Panopticon]

I made this map "for the lulz", just to point out a partially wrong thinking of safinator. I2a1b tends to be Slavic but it's not generally the Slavic one.
I know that's a map of I2a1, anybody blind sitting there...

So you showed that I2a1b is not entirely Slavic by pointing out to a map, which includes all I2a1 sub-clades, not just I2a1b, and for which if there was a map would have shown that it peaks among Slavs, ultimately the factual inconsistency of another person; this by being factually inconsistent yourself and using straw-man arguments? :D

I do agree with you when you say that it's not Slavic, in the same way that no haplogroup is tied down to one linguistic group, ethnicity and so on. However, that becomes far too nit-picky and semantic as what they're trying to say is clear. (I would recommend verbiage to be more explicit with that sad.) I2a1b clearly relates to South Slavs and their migration into the Balkans.

[gold_fenix]

None of those haplogroups exist in Greece?

North African E1b, if not from the Moors, might be due to the Sicanians who were said to be related to ancient Iberians and North Africans. E1b in Iberia is of the North African variety too.

and the curious of that E1b berber haplogroup in Iberia is higgest in zone who were isolated or where never were the moors, so i think E1b iberian or balkanic isn't of north african origin

[Prince Carlo]

You said that I was wrong about E-V13 in Sicily and you posted a map with the Greek genetic influence in Italy. Do you still think that I'm wrong? You and Joseph should be men enough to admit that you don't know much about Italian genetics and that your views are shaped by other factors

I have made some confusion. Campania is 6% E1b1b, which is low considering that South Italians have it in the 15-20% range.

[Artek]

So you showed that I2a1b is not entirely Slavic by pointing out to a map, which includes all I2a1 sub-clades, not just I2a1b, and for which if there was a map would have shown that it peaks among Slavs, ultimately the factual inconsistency of another person; this by being factually inconsistent yourself and using straw-man arguments? :D
So I showed a map that I made just for fun, not for any scientific purposes. You haven't noticed it, have you? Texts made there are irrational and only one of them says something true - I2a1a is an ancient West Mediterranean haplogroup and can't be connected with Slavs.


I do agree with you when you say that it's not Slavic, in the same way that no haplogroup is tied down to one linguistic group, ethnicity and so on. However, that becomes far too nit-picky and semantic as what they're trying to say is clear. (I would recommend verbiage to be more explicit with that sad.) I2a1b clearly relates to South Slavs and their migration into the Balkans.
As I said, it's mostly(but not entirely) slavic since we can see high frequencies even among Ukrainians, Belarussians, Sorbs etc. But some of it must have been in Balkans even before slavic invasions. Or you have a better reason for presence of I2a1b2 haplogroup in British Isles. Auxiliaries from Balkans were probably sent there, I don't have better explanation than that.

Further research on I2a1b should make some things clear, of what is slavic about this haplo and what was before Slavs came.

[Gospodine]

I do agree with you when you say that it's not Slavic, in the same way that no haplogroup is tied down to one linguistic group, ethnicity and so on. However, that becomes far too nit-picky and semantic as what they're trying to say is clear. (I would recommend verbiage to be more explicit with that sad.) I2a1b clearly relates to South Slavs and their migration into the Balkans.

According to Nordvedt I2a1b is not older than 2,800 years.

There was nothing remotely close to a distinct Proto-Slavic identity until around 200BC.

The theory that I2a1b is Slavic also defies the history of most other major subclades in Europe, which arose within close proximity to their reconstructed Urheimats.


The variation at 28 Y-chromosome biallelic markers was analysed in 256 males (90 Croats, 81 Serbs and 85 Bosniacs) from Bosnia-Herzegovina. An important shared feature between the three ethnic groups is the high frequency of the "Palaeolithic" European-specific haplogroup (Hg) I, a likely signature of a Balkan population re-expansion after the Last Glacial Maximum.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16266413?dopt=Abstract

[Panopticon]

So I showed a map that I made just for fun, not for any scientific purposes. You haven't noticed it, have you? Texts made there are irrational and only one of them says something true - I2a1a is an ancient West Mediterranean haplogroup and can't be connected with Slavs.

I have noticed it, but thanks for your honest concern. Though I do get confused seeing as you continue on to say that you're making a point, i.e., that it's not just fun. Still, that I2a1a is Slavic was never claimed. Thus rendering your point irrelevant and a straw-man. You obviously made it as a response to something you reacted to, you made that very obvious.


As I said, it's mostly(but not entirely) slavic since we can see high frequencies even among Ukrainians, Belarussians, Sorbs etc. But some of it must have been in Balkans even before slavic invasions. Or you have a better reason for presence of I2a1b2 haplogroup in British Isles. Auxiliaries from Balkans were probably sent there, I don't have better explanation than that.

Further research on I2a1b should make some things clear, of what is slavic about this haplo and what was before Slavs came.

That could very well be, yet it doesn't refute the fact that its modern distribution is due to Slavic migrations into the Balkans, which is basically the point. It would have had to come from that pre-Slavic people down to the Balkans too. That it's not related to what one usually refers to as the pre-Slavic Balkans is beyond any sort of doubt.


According to Nordvedt I2a1b is not older than 2,800 years.

There was nothing remotely close to a distinct Proto-Slavic identity until around 200BC.

The theory that I2a1b is Slavic also defies the history of most other major subclades in Europe, which arose within close proximity to their reconstructed Urheimats.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16266413?dopt=Abstract

Yes, it, like all other haplogroups, doesn't belong to any specific x or y, yet there are connections. The red thread in this case is that it came to the Balkans with the Slavic migrations into the Balkans. Straw-man argumentation is the stronger points of many it seems.

It's from 2005. They assumed it was linked to some Paelolithic reemergence, because haplogroup I generally is. Yet one can now be pretty sure that it originated outside of the Balkans and that it's rather young.

[safinator]

http://i.imgur.com/H6Be7.jpg

[Ira di Dio]

Simple. For the same reason why western R1b like for example U152 is much higher in southern Italy than in Greece: geographical proximity.

[Scholarios]

There is of course the possibility that R1a has simply not been found in Italy, but exists in similar quantities to Greece. After all, even this doesn't rule out the possibility of Slavic influence in Greece through R1a- as Slavs also settled southern Italy and Sicily (albeit in smaller numbers). In addition, high R1a Greeks and Albanians settled throughout Italy in the Middle Ages and Early Modern era- it's not all from Greek colonies. Considering this, it also seems likely that a good deal of R1a in Greece is Arvanitic in origin. Greece had a similar R1a level to Albania until Labs from Kosovo and Tosks who assimilated Epirote Slavs settled in Attika and Korinthos.

Of course, it's also true that it's almost certain that not all R1a in Greece is Slavic- so it further makes me think readings of South Italian R1a may not be exactly accurate.

And finally- some ideas like 'Greeks didn't mix with others' is of course false. Greeks didn't mix with Muslims(by choice at least), but of course they mixed with Balkan Slavs and Albanians, themselves of partially Paleo-Balkanic origin, furthermore making it hard to believe that NONE of these peoples possessed R1a in any significant amount (and hence transferring it to Italy at some point)

[Artek]

Slavs also settled southern Italy and Sicily (albeit in smaller numbers).
Could you prove it by some sources?

[Twistedmind]

In DAI it was recorded that Byzantines transported some Slavs to fight off Arab invasion in Southern Italy. I dont remember which chapter exactly, but it was something between 29-32.

[Scholarios]

Could you prove it by some sources?

Sure, there is first of all some more recent Croatian settlers in Sicily from time of Ottoman Conquests:

http://www.faqs.org/minorities/Western-Europe-and-Scandinavia/Greeks-Croatians-and-Albanians-of-Italy.html

and furthermore, the Slavic invasions and the campaigns of the Byzantines and Arabs in South Italy lead to their settlement there.

Slavic traces are also visible in place names on the Gargano peninsula. First of all, there is the name of the littoral village of Peschici (castellum Pesclizzo in 1053) – whose literal meaning would be “small sands“, which is in accordance with the geological appearance of the area. The even more important settlement of Lesina, mentioned in 1023, is connected with the Slavic name of the Dalmatian island of Hvar, which derives from the Slavic word les – forest. This connection between the name of the island and the settlement on Gargano was pointed out by an expert in languages and dialects spoken in South Italy, Gerhard Rohlfs. While studying the Garganic dialects in the 1940s and 1950s, he recognized about 17 words of Slavic origin, especially in the aforementioned Peschici, but also in some other nearby places, such as San Giovanni Rotondo or Vico. For example, the Croatian word skakavac – grasshopper – is almost identical with Garganic scazcavázzə, while some others show traces of Slavic – such as the words for little girls (ciúrcia = Cr. curica), worm (langlistə = Cr. glista), different kinds of lizards (vúschərə, salambachə = Cr. gušter, zelembać), the coast, the snail (pugghiáca = Cr. puž), etc

Slavs but Not Slaves: Slavic Migration to Medieval Southern Italy:
biblio.irb.hr/.../544007.Slavs_but_Not_Slaves.doc (biblio.irb.hr/.../544007.Slavs_but_Not_Slaves.do)

[Sikeliot]

Maybe that's where my haplogroup comes from if not Greece.

[Arch Hades]

Polako has told me that R1a1a in Greece is mostly M458 and Z280, at a ratio of about 60/40 so far.

Even though Underhill 2009 dated M458 to well over 10,000 years ago, it's likely way younger. Likely Z280 is pre Slavic and did exist at least to a small degree in the classical Greeks.

Anyway, there's an interesting study that still has not been release but Greeks do certainly have a detectable Slavic signal from the North. How big it is I can't say. I don't expect it to be anything greater than 1/10.


LD patterns in dense variation data reveal information about the history of human populations worldwide. S. Myers1,2, G. Hellenthal2, D. Lawson3, G. Busby4, S. Leslie5, B. Winney5, P. Donnelly2, W. Bodmer5, The. POBI Consortium1,2,5, C. Capelli4, D. Falush6 1) Dept of Statistics, Oxford University, United Kingdom; 2) Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics, Oxford University, United Kingdom; 3) Department of Mathematics, University of Bristol, United Kingdom; 4) Dept of Zoology, Oxford University, United Kingdom; 5) Cancer and Immunogenetics Group, Department of Clinical Pharmocology, Oxford University, United Kingdom; 6) Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Department of Evolutionary Genetics, Leipzig.

"A detailed understanding of population structure in genetic data is vital in many applications, including population genetic analyses and disease gene mapping, and relates directly to human history. However, there are still few methods that directly utilize information contained in the haplotypic structure of modern dense, genome-wide variation datasets. We have developed a set of new approaches, founded on a model first introduced by Li and Stephens, which fully use this powerful information, and are able to identify the underlying structure in large datasets sampling 50 or more populations. Our methods utilize both Bayesian model-based clustering and principal component analyses, and by using LD information effectively, consistently outperform existing approaches in both simulated and real data. This allows us to infer ancestry with unprecedented geographical precision, in turn enabling us to characterize the populations involved in ancient admixture events and, critically, to precisely date such events. We applied our new techniques to combined data for 30 European populations sampled by us, or publicly available, and the worldwide HGDP data. We find almost all human populations have been influenced by mixture with other groups, with the Bantu expansion, the Mongol empire and the Arab slave trade leaving particularly widespread genetic signatures, and many more local events, for example North African (Moroccan) admixture into the Spanish that we date to 834-1394AD. Dates of admixture events between European groups and groups from North Africa and the Middle East, seen in multiple Mediterranean countries, vary between 800 and 1700 years ago, while Greece, Croatia and other Balkan states show signals of admixture consistent with Slavic migration from the north, which we date to 600-1000AD. At the finest scale, we are able to study admixture patterns in data gathered by a project (POBI) examining people within the British Isles. Our approaches reveal genetic differences between individuals from different UK counties, and show that the current UK genetic landscape was formed by a series of events in the millennium following the fall of the Roman Empire."

[Papastratosels26]

I voted the second.

[Dimitri159]

So you don't believe that the very high J2 comes from Greece? I mean, it probably can't now that I look again considering J2 in eastern Sicily is higher than all of Greece except Crete, and it's even higher in western Sicily than much of Greece and there was not as much Greek settlement there.

J2 in western Sicily is probably Phoenician and thus more like what you find in Lebanon.




Then what makes you think Greeks would have mixed in Sicily either? If anything it looks like Normans, Moors, and Romans had only negligible genetic impact, which means they likely left few descendants because the Greek core of the population refused to mix with them.

It IS very possible that northern Greeks were just more Eastern European genetically in antiquity even still and that the divide is ancient.. and not recent. I am unsure.

Greeks really aren’t J2 or E1b all that much, that’s a big myth that everybody spread about Greeks.

Greek Haplogroups according to FamilyTree DNA:

https://i.ibb.co/chGcMhP/Greece-Haplogroup.png