PKK leader Murat Karayilan: We will never leave our country

[ChildOfTheJin]

January 2, 2013

QANDIL,— In a new year's massage released on Sterk TV, the acting commander of the Turkey Kurdistan Workers' Party PKK and Kurdish Communities Union (KCK) Executive Council President Murat Karayılan conveyed wishes of freedom, democracy and brotherhood of all peoples in Kurdistan and the Middle East.

Karayılan evaluated 2012 as a year of resistance and achievement by the Kurdish people whose struggle in both political and diplomatic areas inside and outside Kurdistan defeated AKP government's policy aimed at eliminating Kurds, he underlined.

Referring to the developments in West Kurdistan [Syrian Kurdistan] as of mid July, Karayılan commented the Kurdish revolution in this territory as a new page in the history of the Kurdish people.

KCK President pointed out that no power will be able to prevent Kurdish people's fight for freedom or the reality of Kurdistan, noting that Kurds will take their place in the re-design process of the Middle East.

Evaluating recent developments in Turkey, Karayılan called on AKP government to end monist policies which – he said- meant Turkification of people under compulsion. “The AKP government must accept the fact that this policy will not work, just like it has failed for the last 90 years”, he added.

Responding to Turkish Prime Minister who has recently said that “PKK members can go to other countries after laying their arms down”, Karayılan evaluated Erdoğan's statement as an attack against the Kurdish people and their values and added;

“Erdoğan must know that we are from Kurdistan, that we love this country and that we paid great prices for this country. In response to Erdoğan who offers two alternatives, either to become Turk and agree on a single nation or to leave the country, I say that it is him who must leave this territory which is Kurdistan and is our country. Everyone should know that guerrillas of the freedom movement and the resistance of the Kurdish people will remain alive as long as the armed repression and political slaughter of the Kurdish people continue.”

Referring to the recently increasing smear campaign of the Turkish media against the PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party), KCK President remarked that “We will not pull back from our fight but we will side with a solution through dialogue and negotiation if authorities recognize the Kurdish people, see their reality and end policies of occupation”.

Since it was established in 1984, the PKK has been fighting the Turkish state, which still denies the constitutional existence of Kurds, to establish a Kurdish state in the south east of the country. By 2012, more than 45,000 people have since been killed.

But now its aim is the creation an autonomous region and more cultural rights for ethnic Kurds who constitute the greatest minority in Turkey. A large Turkey's Kurdish community, numbering to 25 million, openly sympathise with PKK rebels.

The PKK wants constitutional recognition for the Kurds, regional self-governance and Kurdish-language education in schools.

The PKK has nearly 50 thousand trained fighters on fronts and streets war, as they are deployed within the Kurdish areas near the common border of Turkey with both Iraq and Syria.

PKK's demands included releasing PKK detainees, lifting the ban on education in Kurdish, paving the way for an autonomous democrat Kurdish system within Turkey, reducing pressure on the detained PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan, stopping military action against the Kurdish party and recomposing the Turkish constitution.

The rebels have scaled back their demands for more political autonomy for Turkey's ethnic Kurds.

Turkey refuses to recognize its Kurdish population as a distinct minority. It has allowed some cultural rights such as limited broadcasts in the Kurdish language and private Kurdish language courses with the prodding of the European Union, but Kurdish politicians say the measures fall short of their expectations.

The PKK is considered as 'terrorist' organization by Ankara, U.S., the PKK continues to be on the blacklist list in EU despite court ruling which overturned a decision to place the Kurdish rebel group PKK and its political wing on the European Union's terror list.

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2013/1/turkey4387.htm

[agality]

Welcome back troll. Look at who thanked your post. 'Bozacinin sahidi siraci' :).

[ChildOfTheJin]

Welcome back troll. Look at who thanked your post. 'Bozacinin sahidi siraci' :).

Me troll? Nah, I'm not like that. Not anymore anyway...

[agality]

Since you're a Kurd, you're free to reply all posts about Kurds but I've always wondered why you're opening threads in Turkish sub-forum about PKK, which is a terrorist organization and main enemy of Turkey. I'm sure most Turkish members here don't have anything to do with your friends living in mountains. Can you at least stop terrorizing this sub-forum?

[TheMagnificent]

Welcome back troll. Look at who thanked your post. 'Bozacinin sahidi siraci' :).

Seems he's back from training camp.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Since you're a Kurd, you're free to reply all posts about Kurds but I've always wondered why you're opening threads in Turkish sub-forum about PKK, which is a terrorist organization and main enemy of Turkey. I'm sure most Turkish members here don't have anything to do with your friends living in mountains. Can you at least stop terrorizing this sub-forum?

Because this is Turkey related...


Can you at least stop terrorizing this sub-forum

Go learn the meaning of terrorist and terrorizing.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Seems he's back from training camp.

Yep

http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20121201/pirhayati20121201204017303.jpg

[Partizan]

Yep

http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20121201/pirhayati20121201204017303.jpg

I guess you learnt how to bomb buses and kill teenager girls there, it is Kurdish profession as you know:

jOaUpeTEeW0

[Grizzly]

Turks, masters of raiding, pillaging and other barbaric actions for centuries claiming Kurds to be terrorists :picard1:

[ChildOfTheJin]

Turks, masters of raiding, pillaging and other barbaric actions for centuries claiming Kurds to be terrorists :picard1:

Most Turks are hypocrites. But there are some Turks like Alpdogan who openly support and have been involved in Kurdish protests.

[ChildOfTheJin]

I guess you learnt how to bomb buses and kill teenager girls there, it is Kurdish profession as you know:

jOaUpeTEeW0

Lol that wasn't the PKK. Infact, the PKK doesn't have any operations active in Istanbul. Turkish propaganda is so retarded. And guess where the link is from lol. Hilarious

[Partizan]

Turks, masters of raiding, pillaging and other barbaric actions for centuries claiming Kurds to be terrorists :picard1:


Most Turks are hypocrites. But there are some Turks like Alpdogan who openly support and have been involved in Kurdish protests.

Seperatists love each other, how cute! :)


Lol that wasn't the PKK. Infact, the PKK doesn't have any operations active in Istanbul. Turkish propaganda is so retarded. And guess where the link is from lol. Hilarious

Those bastards and subhumans, who bombed defenceless people in bus, are actually connected to PKK. They were also in hunger strike together with PKK terrorists.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Not only Turks ..Kurds are dying too..

http://i.imgur.com/cmioj.jpg

She was shopping with her children before Bayram

http://i.imgur.com/WmiaP.jpg
Veysel Belgin was 11 years old


http://i.imgur.com/0mLbj.jpg
PKK suicide bomber Nazlı Gorer

That brave Kurdish woman, a mother of four children ,noticed the terrorist Nazlı Görer shouted at her "please for Gods sake, do not explode it!" ,tried to stop her, but bomb exploded ,she and one of her children Veysel Belgin died in Bingöl main street shopping center .
She saved many people from terrorist alive bomb 29 October 2011


Genç Caddesi'ndeki Şehitler Anıtı önünde düzenlenen etkinlikte konuşan ve aynı olayda yaralanan Hatice Belgin'in kızı Ceylan Belgin, o gün annesinin canlı bombanın üzerine atladığını belirterek, ''Cumhuriyetimizin 88. yıl dönümünde, gözünü kırpmadan ve bir an düşünmeden bizler için canını verdin. Sadece bizleri değil, onlarca suçu ve günahı olmayan insanları da kurtardın'' dedi.

[Turkophagos]

That brave Kurdish woman, a mother of four children ,noticed the terrorist Nazlı Görer shouted at her "please for Gods sake, do not explode it!" ,tried to stop her, but bomb exploded ,she and one of her children Veysel Belgin died in Bingöl main street shopping center .
She saved many people from terrorist alive bomb 29 October 2011


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-k4tOFAf-Uhg/T3nonTf-TCI/AAAAAAAAAIw/EJd9-bCUmD0/s1600/coolsis.jpg

[Turkophagos]

I've always wondered why you're opening threads in Turkish sub-forum about PKK, which is a terrorist organization and main enemy of Turkey.

Ermm, he asked for a Kurdistan sub-forum and the request was denied?

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

http://i.imgur.com/2nqPF.jpg


Neo Nazi Greek Hyena's aren't my brothers .


http://i.imgur.com/ceJq8.jpg



Afghan refugees, huddled in their flat in central Athens, told CBN News that coming to Greece was the biggest mistake they ever made.

They called their life in Greece "a nightmare," and claimed they hide in their home as much as possible to avoid being beaten up in the street.

Worse than Taliban http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/july/afghan-refugees-life-in-greece-worse-than-taliban/

[ChildOfTheJin]

Not only Turks ..Kurds are dying too..

http://i.imgur.com/cmioj.jpg

She was shopping with her children before Bayram

http://i.imgur.com/WmiaP.jpg
Veysel Belgin was 11 years old


http://i.imgur.com/0mLbj.jpg
PKK suicide bomber Nazlı Gorer

That brave Kurdish woman, a mother of four children ,noticed the terrorist Nazlı Görer shouted at her "please for Gods sake, do not explode it!" ,tried to stop her, but bomb exploded ,she and one of her children Veysel Belgin died in Bingöl main street shopping center .
She saved many people from terrorist alive bomb 29 October 2011

Bullshit propaganda, also proves why you showed no source. Lol

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

You have google and names..Search yourself

Name of the dead boy is given to a youth center as a memorial and Hatice Belgin's name to a street.

http://www.bingolgazetesi.com.tr/haber/20120103/11816/kunye.html

[ChildOfTheJin]

Seperatists love each other, how cute! :)



Those bastards and subhumans, who bombed defenceless people in bus, are actually connected to PKK. They were also in hunger strike together with PKK terrorists.
Ataturk was a terrorist, he killed millions. Don't deny it. And the stupid laws he came up with should be in a comedy show. He was laughable. Thank God he died. The last thing we wanted was a lunatic going around killing people.

[ChildOfTheJin]

You have google and names..Search yourself

Name of the dead boy is given to a youth center as a memorial and Hatice Belgin's name to a street.

http://www.bingolgazetesi.com.tr/haber/20120103/11816/kunye.html

Lol Turkish website

[ChildOfTheJin]

Ermm, he asked for a Kurdistan sub-forum and the request was denied?

They said the best thing they could do was to put a Kurdish category in the Turkish sub forum last year. I'm still waiting for it.

[Pontios]

Ataturk was a terrorist, he killed millions. Don't deny it. And the stupid laws he came up with should be in a comedy show. He was laughable. Thank God he died. The last thing we wanted was a lunatic going around killing people.

The victors write the history unfortunately...:picard2:

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Lol Turkish website

Ofcourse ..They are our people and we are not going to forget them .

[Pontios]

They said the best thing they could do was to put a Kurdish category in the Turkish sub forum last year. I'm still waiting for it.

That is a shame. I see 2 fake nations that have their own sections but Kurdish, with tens of millions of people do not...:picard1:

[ChildOfTheJin]

Ofcourse ..They are our people and we are not going to forget them .

More like Turkey is trying to give the PKK a bad name.

[Partizan]

Ataturk was a terrorist, he killed millions. Don't deny it.

He killed terrorists, invaders and reactionary sheikhs, I am in favor of all!

http://www.dunyabizim.com/images/news/17600.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Dead_of_Greek_soldiers_after_the_battle_of_Sakarya .jpg

http://www.analizmerkezi.com/resimler/2/cumhuriyet8217in-teror-aygiti-istiklal-mahkemeleri--1882.jpg

I am sure anti-Turkish butthurt dumbs are going to blame Atatürk and Turkish nation for genociding Australian, New Zealander, British and French invaders in Gallipoli :eyes


And the stupid laws he came up with should be in a comedy show

Giving women election rights even before France and Switzerland? Yeah laughable for Kurds and other primitive folks.

[Pontios]

He killed terrorists, invaders and reactionary sheikhs, I am in favor of all!

http://www.dunyabizim.com/images/news/17600.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Dead_of_Greek_soldiers_after_the_battle_of_Sakarya .jpg

http://www.analizmerkezi.com/resimler/2/cumhuriyet8217in-teror-aygiti-istiklal-mahkemeleri--1882.jpg

I am sure anti-Turkish butthurt dumbs are going to blame Atatürk and Turkish nation for genociding Australian, New Zealander, British and French invaders in Gallipoli :eyes



Giving women election rights even before France and Switzerland? Yeah laughable for Kurds and other primitive folks.

Invaders and terrorists? There were over 900.000 Greek "invaders" and "terrorists" and another 1.800.000 Armenian "invaders" and "terrorists"? That is quite a big number, I wonder how many 9/11's should have happened in Turkey with that many "terrorists"

[Partizan]

Invaders and terrorists? There were over 900.000 Greek "invaders" and "terrorists" and another 1.800.000 Armenian "invaders" and "terrorists"? That is quite a big number, I wonder how many 9/11's should have happened in Turkey with that many "terrorists"

Sorry, blame Venizelos for attacking Turkey in 1919, just in favour of British oil. Greeks tried to invade Turkey with British and French support, we gave you a lesson. Numbers you gave are over-estimated since there weren't that much Greeks and Armenians. However, Greek army killed/raped/tortured more Turks in West Anatolia than the numbers you gave. I won't even mention how many Turks(and also Kurds) were killed in Eastern Anatolia by Armenians backed by Russian army.

[ChildOfTheJin]

He killed terrorists, invaders and reactionary sheikhs, I am in favor of all!

http://www.dunyabizim.com/images/news/17600.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Dead_of_Greek_soldiers_after_the_battle_of_Sakarya .jpg

http://www.analizmerkezi.com/resimler/2/cumhuriyet8217in-teror-aygiti-istiklal-mahkemeleri--1882.jpg

I am sure anti-Turkish butthurt dumbs are going to blame Atatürk and Turkish nation for genociding Australian, New Zealander, British and French invaders in Gallipoli :eyes:.

You are not human.


Giving women election rights even before France and Switzerland? Yeah laughable for Kurds and other primitive folks

I didn't say all his laws were stupid. Have you heard of this? Was spoken in 1930

“I won't hide my feelings. The Turk is the only lord, the only master of this country. Those who are not of pure Turkish origin will have only one right in Turkey: the right to be servants and slaves.”

[Pontios]

Sorry, blame Venizelos for attacking Turkey in 1919, just in favour of British oil. Greeks tried to invade Turkey with British and French support, we gave you a lesson. Numbers you gave are over-estimated since there weren't that much Greeks and Armenians. However, Greek army killed/raped/tortured more Turks in West Anatolia than the numbers you gave. I won't even mention how many Turks(and also Kurds) were killed in Eastern Anatolia by Armenians backed by Russian army.

The word "invade" is kind of wrong. It is more like "retake". That British and French "support" stabbed us in the back right before we were about to take Constantinople in fear of us creating another empire. Such a small nation, that just got freedom from 400 years of slavery, killed/raped/tortured over 3 million Turks? You are adding a couple of unneeded 0's to that number. :pound:

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

More like Turkey is trying to give the PKK a bad name.

More like there are millions of normal people of every etnicity who want to live a normal life under protection of strong uniter state ,want respectable professions ,good wages ,health care ,insurance and everything and also a bunch of seperatist idiots serving to western global cooparations to create small ,weak countries incapable of protecting their citizens against sweatshopping for a few coins with no insurance ,exploiting all natural sources and all kinds of evils.

What kind of future do you promise to these people ?

[Partizan]

You are not human.

Greek soldiers who invade Western Anatolia and rape defenceless women are humans, Kurds who start rebellions and backstab us when we have problems with the UK(1925, Mosul) or France(1938, Hatay) are humans but I, who is happy for death of those scum is not?


I didn't say all his laws were stupid. Have you heard of this? Was spoken in 1930

“I won't hide my feelings. The Turk is the only lord, the only master of this country. Those who are not of pure Turkish origin will have only one right in Turkey: the right to be servants and slaves.”

Those are words of Mahmut Esat Bozkurt, another great man. And YES, there is Turkey, we do not accept any nation or identity other than Turkish one. I am behind his words!

[Partizan]

The word "invade" is kind of wrong. It is more like "retake".

Retake while majority of Western Anatolia and Marmara Region was Turkish/Muslim?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Prorportions_des_populations_musulmanes_grecques_e t_armeniennes_en_AsieMineure_d%27apres_la_statisti que_du_livreJaune.png


That British and French "support" stabbed us in the back right before we were about to take Constantinople in fear of us creating another empire.

Actually, they always supported İzmir and Eastern Thrace being under Greek control, even in the peace proposal they offered after Greek defeat in Sakarya. You had their last technology guns and political support from first to last.


Such a small nation, that just got freedom from 400 years of slavery, killed/raped/tortured over 3 million Turks? You are adding a couple of unneeded 0's to that number. :pound:


The Greek Minister of Culture has put before the Greek President a proposed law that would make September 15th a "Memorial Day" in remembrance of the "Genocide against Greek inhabitants by Turkish forces in 1922."

The proposed law refers back to the Greek-Turkish War. Such a gesture by the Greek government would fuel nationalist sentiment in Greece and elsewhere in the Balkans. Below is a letter from Dr. Nakratzas, which eloquently articulates this sentiment.



To Mr. Evangelos Venizelos
Minister of Culture
Athens - Greece


Rotterdam 10 February 2001

Dear Sir,

I was interested to learn from reports in the media that on 9 February 2001 you forwarded for signature to the President of the Republic of Greece a Presidential Decree, in accordance with which 15 September is to be declared the official day commemorating the Genocide of the Greeks in Asia Minor by the Turks.

As Minister of Culture you will, I assume, feel a great respect for the historical truth, and I ask you therefore to permit me to inform you of certain details concerning the Genocide of the Slav-speaking Macedonians of Kilkis committed by the Greek Army in 1913, in addition to certain information on the crimes committed by the Greek Army in Asia Minor during the period 1919-1922 against the civilian Turkish population.

The Carnegie Report (ISBN 0-87003-032-9) informs us that the town of Kilkis was occupied, intact, by the Greek Army on 4 July 1913. Having occupied the town, the Greek troops removed the remaining residents and then plundered and burned their houses. The Report also mentions that in addition to the town of Kilkis the Greek Army also put to the torch 40 villages in the region, burning a total of 4,725 houses.

Of the total number of 100,000 Slav-speaking Macedonians who were thus obliged to seek refuge in Bulgaria, the Greek cavalry caught up with 4,000 at the village of Akangeli. 60 of the men were taken to a nearby forest and never heard of again. On the following day, according to eye-witness accounts, the Greek soldiers committed murder and rape and stole money. The committee were also given a list of 365 individuals from neighbouring villages believed to have been massacred by the Greek army at the village of Akangeli. Finally, a European eye-witness testified to the committee that on entering the town of Yevyeli the Greeks executed 200 Bulgarian citizens.

I do not know if this historical information will prompt you to recommend an additional Presidential Decree concerning the Genocide by the Greek army in 1913 of the Slav-speaking Macedonians of Kilkis.

As for the information on the crimes of the Greek army against the civilian Turkish population of Asia Minor during the period 1919-1922, there is insufficient scope in a short letter for a full description of the events involved.

I shall confine myself to mentioning in brief the massacre by the Greek army of Turkish civilians at Aidini, Menemeni and Pergamum.

I shall also mention the slaughter of Turkish prisoners of war in Smyrna on the day the Greek army disembarked in 1919.

Finally, I shall mention briefly the burning of thousands of villages in the areas of Eski-Sehir, Uzak, Kioutaheia, etc., as well as the destruction, robbery or looting of shops and businesses, and the seizing of vast quantities of livestock and grain from Turkish villagers. For more details and eye-witness testimony I recommend that you consult my book, recently published under the title

ASIA MINOR AND THE ORIGINS OF THE REFUGEES

The imperialist Greek policy of 1922 and the Asia Minor Catastrophe Batavia Publications, Thessaloniki 2000, ISBN 960-85800-6-4

I ask myself if the information you will find in the book will be sufficient to prompt you to recommend the appropriate Presidential Decree.

Yours,

Dr. Georgios Nakratzas (The Netherlands)

P.S. For your information, a Turkish translation of the book mentioned above is shortly to be issued by a publishing house in Istanbul (Constantinople).


I wish all Greeks were honest like him...

[Pontios]

Greek soldiers who invade Western Anatolia and rape defenceless women are humans, Kurds who start rebellions and backstab us when we have problems with the UK(1925, Mosul) or France(1938, Hatay) are humans but I, who is happy for death of those scum is not?



Those are words of Mahmut Esat Bozkurt, another great man. And YES, there is Turkey, we do not accept any nation or identity other than Turkish one. I am behind his words!

You have some really crazy comparisons. :crazy:

[ChildOfTheJin]

Partizan you're a Muslim aren't you?

[Partizan]

Partizan you're a Muslim aren't you?

Yes, why do you ask?

[ChildOfTheJin]

You have some really crazy comparisons. :crazy:

He claims to be a Turkish historian too.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Yes, why do you ask?

Because you support the deaths of other Muslims.

[Partizan]

Because you support the deaths of other Muslims.

Fire worshiper Kerds were and are always lapdogs of Christians and Jews against Turks and Arabs. In Sheikh Said rebellion, you had British support. In Dersim rebellion, you had French support. PKK received supports from every imperialist country, from the US to Russia. So, counting those infidel/collaborator/fire worshiper scum as Muslims would be biggest insult to Islam, estagfirullah!

[Pontios]

Because you support the deaths of other Muslims.

They are barely Muslim. :tsk:

Kemal was destroyed everything Muslim in Turks.
No man, Christian or Muslim can do things to others that Kemal did. Only animals without God can.

[Onur]

They said the best thing they could do was to put a Kurdish category in the Turkish sub forum last year. I'm still waiting for it.
We have no relation with Kurds apart from living in same country with them. Kurds are not some sub-category of Turks as there is no need for any Kurdish category in Turkish section. There is no difference between Kurdish, Armenian or Greek people in Turkey in my own opinion. These people are happened to be live by Turkish majority in Turkey, but thats it. They are not my people and i don't wanna be related with them in any case.

[Pontios]

^ and that is a good example of their animal like culture. By the way, Allah and God is the same, just different languages. A lot of uneducated people, like we see above me, tend to think that Allah is the name of God in Islam, but it is just the Arabic Word for God.

And please do not insult any religion...

[ChildOfTheJin]

Fire worshiper Kerds were and are always lapdogs of Christians and Jews against Turks and Arabs. In Sheikh Said rebellion, you had British support. In Dersim rebellion, you had French support. PKK received supports from every imperialist country, from the US to Russia. So, counting those infidel/collaborator/fire worshiper scum as Muslims would be biggest insult to Islam, estagfirullah!

Seems like you know little about Islam, and the PKK isn't a Muslim organisation, the Quran is forbidden inside the PKK

[Partizan]

Seems like you know little about Islam, and the PKK isn't a Muslim organisation, they are atheists, the Quran is forbidden.

True, PKK isn't a Muslim organisation, a quite anti-Islamic one instead and at least 40% of Kerds support it. So? Kerds are not true Muslims.

[ChildOfTheJin]

True, PKK isn't a Muslim organisation, a quite anti-Islamic one instead and at least 40% of Kerds support it. So? Kerds are not true Muslims.

The PKK hasn't existed forever...

[Partizan]

The PKK hasn't existed forever...

Sheikh Said was supposedly Muslim, a devout one. However he choose collaborating with British Empire against Turkish Republic. Almost all Kurdish rebellions had foreign support, French, British or Russian especially. You guys choose to fight against Muslim Turks with modern Crusaders, instead of joining Turks who defended Islam in Anatolia. Whereas, even Arabs, Uzbeks and Pakistanis supported Turkish war of independence. Uzbeks and Pakistani sent their jewellery and money, some Arabs even sided with us in battlefield like this Libyan:

http://www.dunyabulteni.net/resim/250x190/2011/02/21/ve-seyh-sunusi-600x484.jpg

[Cannabis Sativa]

Why we want Murat Karayılan to leave Turkey, why our officials eredicate them and put an end to our target practice opportunities. More realistic daily combat military experience anyway, while more kıro corpses for anatomy lessons.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Sheikh Said was supposedly Muslim, a devout one. However he choose collaborating with British Empire against Turkish Republic. Almost all Kurdish rebellions had foreign support, French, British or Russian especially. You guys choose to fight against Muslim Turks with modern Crusaders, instead of joining Turks who defended Islam in Anatolia. Whereas, even Arabs, Uzbeks and Pakistanis supported Turkish war of independence. Uzbeks and Pakistani sent their jewellery and money, some Arabs even sided with us in battlefield like this Libyan:

http://www.dunyabulteni.net/resim/250x190/2011/02/21/ve-seyh-sunusi-600x484.jpg

Yet again, you misunderstand Islam.

[Partizan]

Yet again, you misunderstand Islam.

You are not even Muslim and judge my Muslimness.

BTW:


O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

http://quran.com/5/51

Well, you Kerds are always ready for joining a Crusade against Turks. Fire worshiper traitors are worse than kuffars!

[ChildOfTheJin]

You are not even Muslim and judge my Muslimness.

BTW:



http://quran.com/5/51

Well, you Kerds are always ready for joining a Crusade against Turks. Fire worshiper traitors are worse than kuffars!

I am not a Muslim because I have had the freedom to choose my religion and I believe Islam was created by the Arab empire to control it's people. The ideas were taken from nearby religions and even if you go to the Jerusalem, the Islamic structures (including the mosque) are all Christian (Roman) influenced.

The British supported some Kurdish rebellions but that was it, they gave us nothing and we did not welcome their support. We even had many leaders fighting the Russians, French and British. You hate imperialism when the truth is, one of the main reasons Islam spread was because of mperialism.

You claim Muslim leaders such as Saladin as Turkish when he was originally from a Kurdish tribe. Their city was invaded by the Turks and that was when his grandfather moved to Tikrit. If they were Turkish, wouldn't they have aided the invading Turkish army? The only evidence you have of Saladin being Turkish is that his brother was called Turanshah which wasn't even his first or last name. We know he was Kurdish and because of Saladin and the Ayyubids, many Kurds moved to Syria and Lebanon to control those areas.

Even one of prophet Mohammed's friends was a Kurd who was appointed by Mohammed to preach and spread Islam in Kurdistan.

The fact is, Kurds have contributed a lot more to Islam than the Turks and the Turks are now trying to take these people as Turkish to try and show Kurds are kafirs and other bullshit. Ridiculous.

[legolasbozo]

The fact is, Kurds have contributed a lot more to Islam than the Turks


wauwww, amazing. İ m really wondering what your kurdish comrades teaching you in your kurdish institus? Dude, sorry but you were baby-cared by europeans or U.S just because of some wrong politics of Turkey in 90's. But it has stopped now, so nobody cares your bonds with ancient folks, your claims about historical figures, your whinnigs, bitching Nowadays nobody has a sympathy for you. Actually everybody saw your savage culture (blood feust, honour killings, your threats about pkk acts in europe) so trust me they regret for their manners. And at last they showed their reactions for your hunger strike. Go and tell your comrades learn to some "self-criticism"

[ChildOfTheJin]

^You should be banned

[legolasbozo]

So tell forum managers to ban me, we would see whether you are right or not İ'm talking about the truth but you have no dare to talk these issues, (pff, and i m suggest you to go to front, what a stupidty) you just know whinning, bitching. When your arguments are over, then; "you should be banned" oh, i see that's all your democracy mentality. You are talking about Turkish government discrimination to Kurds, but when a kurd is not support Pkk, then you blame him as a "non kurd." Talk to my ass.

[Turkophagos]

You are not a Kurd turko...

[agality]

^You should be banned

I'm ignoring other Greek members since they have nothing to do with the Kurdish problem. But why don't you join your friends living in caves if you support them that much?

[Turkophagos]

I'm ignoring other Greek members since they have nothing to do with the Kurdish problem.

I thought we are training PKK fighters. I'd be very disappointed if we don't.

[agality]

I thought we are training PKK fighters. I'd be very disappointed if we don't.

I don't know if that's true or not but it still doesn't concern you.

[ChildOfTheJin]

So tell forum managers to ban me, we would see whether you are right or not İ'm talking about the truth but you have no dare to talk these issues, (pff, and i m suggest you to go to front, what a stupidty) you just know whinning, bitching. When your arguments are over, then; "you should be banned" oh, i see that's all your democracy mentality. You are talking about Turkish government discrimination to Kurds, but when a kurd is not support Pkk, then you blame him as a "non kurd." Talk to my ass.

The reason I don't reply to defend myself is because:

1)You insult me too much and claiming that I have said crap that I never have.
2)You have shit grammar (I don't understand half the things you say)
3)You're a waste of time

[ChildOfTheJin]

I'm ignoring other Greek members since they have nothing to do with the Kurdish problem. But why don't you join your friends living in caves if you support them that much?

Taking up arms and fighting the Turkish army is not the only way to become a PKK member.

[agality]

Taking up arms and fighting the Turkish army is not the only way to become a PKK member.

So what do you do? Do you donate them money?

[ChildOfTheJin]

So what do you do? Do you donate them money?

I raise awareness for Kurds on the Internet. It's not much but when I finish my work and get a good job, I will start donating money to Kurdish charities and if it is possible, create my own charity.

[Partizan]

I am not a Muslim because I have had the freedom to choose my religion and I believe Islam was created by the Arab empire to control it's people. The ideas were taken from nearby religions and even if you go to the Jerusalem, the Islamic structures (including the mosque) are all Christian (Roman) influenced.

Islam is an universal religion, not only for Arabs. By the way in prophet Mohammed's time there was no Mosque with today's meaning. You can pray to Allah in anywhere, it is not a temple based religion. Imams show people how to perform Salah, they do not "remove sins" like priests. Islam fits secularism better and individual based compared to Christianity and Judaism.


The British supported some Kurdish rebellions but that was it, they gave us nothing and we did not welcome their support. We even had many leaders fighting the Russians, French and British.

If you look at timeline of Kurdish rebellions, they always happened when Turkish Republic had problems with Western States.

Soviet media knew who was behind Said:

http://www.aydinlikgazete.com/images/stories/imgggg/2011ARALIK/04aralik/mansetler/13.%20-3karikatr-.jpg


You hate imperialism when the truth is, one of the main reasons Islam spread was because of mperialism.

Nope, I would not compare Ottoman, Mughal or even Umayyad Imperialism with Western ones. Ottomans invaded Balkans, Alboz and Bosniaks converted with their own will but rest remained Christians. Umayyads invaded Levant but a Christian minority remains. Mughals invaded India but not all Indians are Muslims etc. etc. It is not the case of Spaniards converting whole continent or so...


You claim Muslim leaders such as Saladin as Turkish when he was originally from a Kurdish tribe. Their city was invaded by the Turks and that was when his grandfather moved to Tikrit. If they were Turkish, wouldn't they have aided the invading Turkish army?

Actually, there was not "Turkish" in modern sense in medieval. I'm reading a book of an Uzbek writer and those guys seem dislike Kipchaks/Golden Horde and also boast about Ankara Victory against Oghuz Ottomans(to note that, Timur and Timurid Dynasty were Oghuzes too). So? Please do not view medieval with post-1789 glasses.


The only evidence you have of Saladin being Turkish is that his brother was called Turanshah which wasn't even his first or last name. We know he was Kurdish and because of Saladin and the Ayyubids, many Kurds moved to Syria and Lebanon to control those areas.

Actually before the bullshit about Saladin being Kerdish invented, he was known as Saladin the Turk:

http://www.archive.org/stream/chronicleofkings00dods#page/32/mode/2up

http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofchrist00reev#page/356/mode/2up

http://www.archive.org/stream/historyenglandf03turngoog#page/n412/mode/2up/search/Saladin+Turks

Both are pressed in early or middle 19.th century, before the bullshit about "Salahaddin al-Kurdi" invented.


Even one of prophet Mohammed's friends was a Kurd who was appointed by Mohammed to preach and spread Islam in Kurdistan.

http://s1ck.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/julien-lolwut.jpg


The fact is, Kurds have contributed a lot more to Islam than the Turks

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/184/b/9/triple_facepalm_by_spottedheart98464-d3kuyp3.png

[ChildOfTheJin]

Islam is an universal religion, not only for Arabs. By the way in prophet Mohammed's time there was no Mosque with today's meaning. You can pray to Allah in anywhere, it is not a temple based religion. Imams show people how to perform Salah, they do not "remove sins" like priests. Islam fits secularism better and individual based compared to Christianity and Judaism.


It is not a universal religion

1) Quran is written in Arabic
2) Islam was first spread by Arabs
3) Prophet Mohammed was an Arab (Don't tell me he is a Turk)

It is a religion for Semites, just like Christianity and Judaism is.

Islam has been formed out of Judaism, Yezidism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism combining some of their ideas and making it into one religion. The Arab empire knew it needed some way to control it's huge population and so it created a religion called Islam.


If you look at timeline of Kurdish rebellions, they always happened when Turkish Republic had problems with Western States.

It's a good time to strike a country when it is in trouble already.


Nope, I would not compare Ottoman, Mughal or even Umayyad Imperialism with Western ones. Ottomans invaded Balkans, Alboz and Bosniaks converted with their own will but rest remained Christians. Umayyads invaded Levant but a Christian minority remains. Mughals invaded India but not all Indians are Muslims etc. etc. It is not the case of Spaniards converting whole continent or so...

I'm talking about the early days of Islam, they created special taxes for "non believers" They killed anyone who insulted Islam. It was very simple, either leave, convert to Islam and have a good life or stay paying special taxes to have a fucked up life when anyone can come and kill you at any moment.


Actually before the bullshit about Saladin being Kerdish invented, he was known as Saladin the Turk:


Both are pressed in early or middle 19.th century, before the bullshit about "Salahaddin al-Kurdi" invented.

1) Saladin has been famous in Kurdish tradition centuries before the 19th century.
2) Everything changes through time. Centuries ago, the majority of people thought the earth was flat (which is what Christianity believes), does that necessarily mean it is true? We know as a fact that the earth is not flat.
3) I posted (on a different thread) dozens of links and a few videos (from scholars) proving he was Kurdish. Stop trying to portray him as Turkish, even the Arabs say he is Kurdish.

Now you are posting pictures because you cannot prove me wrong and if you can, then do it.

And here is Jaban Sahabi, a Kurd that was a companion of Prophet Mohammed
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaban_Sahabi

[legolasbozo]

he is doing nothing because he is a coward, he is doing just internet lobbying to support pkk arguments.

[Pontios]

I'm ignoring other Greek members since they have nothing to do with the Kurdish problem. But why don't you join your friends living in caves if you support them that much?

So history and current events are only for the people from that nation? So if I am Greek I cannot say anything about the Kurds, because I am not Kurdish? That way neither can anyone else but Kurds themselves.

[agality]

So history and current events are only for the people from that nation? So if I am Greek I cannot say anything about the Kurds, because I am not Kurdish? That way neither can anyone else but Kurds themselves.

Since there are no rights given to Turkey to defend Turkic countries in Asia, especially Kyrgyz people under China's control, i've always believed no other country has right to intervene ethnic problems in Turkey.

[ChildOfTheJin]

he is doing nothing because he is a coward, he is doing just internet lobbying to support pkk arguments.

And you are doing nothing but epically failing at trying to whine me up. Sorry but I am not one hundred years old like you are, I'm still very young and I believe knowledge is power.

[Onur]

Here is a video recently found in the handy-cam of a terrorist, who got caught in southeastern mountains of Turkey.

They are preparing a bomb and attach it to a gas tube to increase it`s explosion effect, load the bomb on a mule and send the animal to the Turkish soldiers in a military checkpoint location but fortunately our soldiers realizes the situation and they were able to escape from the explosion. The poor mule gets exploded and the kurdish terrorists who films the scene gets disappointed in the end because they failed to kill our soldiers;
B3Ki52-DjfU

This is what Turkish people endures everyday for the last 30 years and i have to remind you that the military service is compulsory in Turkey. So, these soldiers are no different than me or any other Turkish youth in 20s. They are ordinary people, not professional soldiers.

[legolasbozo]

And you are doing nothing but epically failing at trying to whine me up. Sorry but I am not one hundred years old like you are, I'm still very young and I believe knowledge is power.

if so, tell that to your caveman hewals to keep their fight on internet, not to me. deal?

[ChildOfTheJin]

Thank you for that video Onur though I think your words were a bit biased


if so, tell that to your caveman hewals to keep their fight on internet, not to me. deal?

What?

[legolasbozo]

diyorum ki madem bilginin güç olduğuna inanıyorsun, o zaman dağdaki pkk'lı horospunun cocuuklarına söyle de dağdan inip bilgisayar başında sürdürsünler mücadelelerini. Gerçi türkçe bilmiyor olabilirsin ama böyle bir durumda babana sor, o sana çeviriverir.

tell your father, he can translate it for you.

[Onur]

Gerçi türkçe bilmiyor olabilirsin ama böyle bir durumda babana sor, o sana çeviriverir.

tell your father, he can translate it for you.
He probably cant. He is an Iraqi who are supposedly trying to defend the terrorism of his fellow Kurds in Turkey. They probably know Arabic and maybe some Kurdish.

[Partizan]

It is not a universal religion

1) Quran is written in Arabic
2) Islam was first spread by Arabs
3) Prophet Mohammed was an Arab (Don't tell me he is a Turk)

It is a religion for Semites, just like Christianity and Judaism is.

1)There is not a verse about Qu'ran can't be translated to another language.
2) and 3) Qu'ran declares that "in old times prophets were sent to every nation". I believe Socrates was a prophet, for example.


Islam has been formed out of Judaism, Yezidism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism combining some of their ideas and making it into one religion. The Arab empire knew it needed some way to control it's huge population and so it created a religion called Islam.

Bullshit. Yezidianism was formed later than Islam and Islam was not formed, it is divine originated. Read Torah and Bible, later read Qu'ran. Torah and Bible is like collection of legends and tales but Qu'ran gives you orders. Qu'ran is definitely different than degenerated books like Bible and Torah.


It's a good time to strike a country when it is in trouble already.

What about receiving logistical support? :rolleyes:


I'm talking about the early days of Islam, they created special taxes for "non believers" They killed anyone who insulted Islam. It was very simple, either leave, convert to Islam and have a good life or stay paying special taxes to have a fucked up life when anyone can come and kill you at any moment.

http://quran.com/109

BTW:


The first Islamic state was founded not in the shadow of swords, as is commonly believed in some circles, but in the security of a social contract, called the Constitution of Medina. By all counts, the Medina Constitution lit the torch of freedom by establishing a Free State for a pluralistic community composed of Muslims, Jews, and pagans. This unprecedented Free State, the first of its kind in the intellectual and political history of human civilization, was founded by none other than Prophet Muhammad himself in the Gregorian year of 622, that is, more than thirteen hundred years before the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) envisaged a modern pluralistic, religiously tolerant Free State- Prof. Ali Khan, Professor of Law, Washburn University.

The Constitution of Medina sets out in general terms the rights of various classes of citizens, their duties to each other, and the manner in which disputes would be resolved. A small number of the people of Yathrib were already Muslims, having converted during the period when Muhammad (SAW) and his followers were being persecuted in Mecca. The rest of the people of Yathrib were non-Muslims, either pagans or Jews. The pact signaled these peoples' voluntary agreement to be ruled by Islamic law. They hoped that by having this external, objective source of laws, the strife that was tearing their community apart would be healed.

The Jews in Medina were a minority group. They were clients of the two major Arab tribes, some on one side of the dispute and some on the other. The Constitution of Medina gives special attention to the rights of the Jewish citizens of Medina. Among the clauses relating to the Jews are the following:
those Jews who join in the treaty and become part of the larger community it creates are due help and equal treatment
the Jews shall not be wronged, nor shall their enemies be given aid
the Jews will be treated as one community with the Muslims, but each has their own religion
the Jews have the same status as the parties making the pact
Rather than being counted as part of the tribes they were attached to (and hence split among themselves), the Jews under the Constitution of Medina were treated as a single community of their own. This community was elevated from its previous position to a state of equality with the main parties making the treaty (the Muslims and the two Arab tribes). Its interests were given equal weight with those of the other groups, so that no party to the agreement could ally with its enemies. Most importantly, it was guaranteed the right to have its own religion. As well, individual Jews were guaranteed fair and equal treatment and to be protected from wrongdoing. In return, the Jewish community would contribute equally with the other communities to the protection and defense of Medina.

http://www.mpac-ng.org/specialtopic/386-the-medina-charter.html


1) Saladin has been famous in Kurdish tradition centuries before the 19th century.

I wouldn't believe since Kurdish ethnicity did not exist before 19.th century. The best proof of existence of a language is gravestone writings. All Kurdish "gravestone writings" are from last 50 years, at least in SE Turkey.


2) Everything changes through time. Centuries ago, the majority of people thought the earth was flat (which is what Christianity believes), does that necessarily mean it is true? We know as a fact that the earth is not flat.

3) I posted (on a different thread) dozens of links and a few videos (from scholars) proving he was Kurdish. Stop trying to portray him as Turkish, even the Arabs say he is Kurdish.

Sorry, this slant-eyed Turanid looks Turkic as hell:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Salah_ad-Din_Jusuf_ibn_Ajub.jpg/220px-Salah_ad-Din_Jusuf_ibn_Ajub.jpg


Now you are posting pictures because you cannot prove me wrong and if you can, then do it.

You talk too much nonsense, "izahı olmayan şeylerin mizahı olur."


And here is Jaban Sahabi, a Kurd that was a companion of Prophet Mohammed
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaban_Sahabi

A wiki article without links? Cool story!

[Pontios]

1)There is not a verse about Qu'ran can't be translated to another language.
2) and 3) Qu'ran declares that "in old times prophets were sent to every nation". I believe Socrates was a prophet, for example.

:rotfl:



Bullshit. Yezidianism was formed later than Islam and Islam was not formed, it is divine originated. Read Torah and Bible, later read Qu'ran. Torah and Bible is like collection of legends and tales but Qu'ran gives you orders. Qu'ran is definitely different than degenerated books like Bible and Torah.

Please do not insult any religious books here. When someone insults your Qu'ran or your Prophets, you hypocrites go around killing ambassadors and burning flags, but when you insult our religions, we are supposed to remain calm?

[Pecheneg]

Sorry, this slant-eyed Turanid looks Turkic as hell:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Salah_ad-Din_Jusuf_ibn_Ajub.jpg/220px-Salah_ad-Din_Jusuf_ibn_Ajub.jpg


Saladin's brothers' names were Turan-shah and Tughtekin. There is no doubt that these names are Turkish, but many sources say he was a Kurd though. I'm not sure.

[Partizan]

:rotfl:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_1_section_5.html


It is the Divine purpose of their creation which Socrates believes humans cannot attain merely with their own efforts. They do not know how to carve their lives to suit the purpose for which they are created. Of that they know nothing, claiming all the same that they are all-knowledgeable. This is what he considers to be utter ignorance. This exercise of discovering the purpose of one's existence is what arete stands for. But this cannot be achieved without perfect humility and absolute admission of one's ignorance. Only then is man ready to be helped by God with step by step guidance from ignorance to knowledge. The only knowledge known to Socrates is that which is revealed by Him; the rest is ignorance.

This exactly is also the message of the Quran, which attributes all knowledge to God so that even the angels admit their ignorance before him. They beseech:


... Holy art Thou! No knowledge have we except what Thou hast taught us; surely, Thou art the All-Knowing, the Wise.4

The Quran repeatedly reminds humans that no knowledge of the right path can be granted them unless they profess total dependence upon Him and implore His help to guide their steps:


Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.

Guide us in the right path.5

It is this same lesson in humility which is so forcefully delivered by Socrates, indicating that man cannot acquire knowledge without admitting his ignorance and realizing that he needs Divine help to show him the path.


Having postulated this, Vlastos has written a long discourse on absolving Socrates of what he himself admits of his spiritual experience. Through an involved logic, he finally assumes that Socrates did not genuinely believe in what appears to be his personal confession. Yet despite all his scholarly effort, Vlastos fails to achieve this purpose. Read again for instance the above quoted passage by Vlastos beginning with the words

'To do this has been commanded me, ...'10

and note that the word God used by Socrates is in the singular, yet the author prefers to write it with a small 'g'.

This statement of Socrates, concerning his personal experience of Divine dreams, revelations and specific commands in other forms, is so powerful and so completely at one with the universal experience of Divine prophets that it leaves no room for doubt that he means exactly what he says. A large number of Quranic verses fully support Socrates when they speak of all the prophets before the Holy Founder of Islamsa having shared with him all the different modes of Divine revelation.

Vlastos further builds his contradiction theory by raising the question:

'Should this incline us to believe that Socrates is counting on two disparate avenues of knowledge about the gods, rational and extra-rational respectively, yielding two distinct systems of justified belief, one of them reached by elenctic argument, the other by divine revelation through oracles, prophetic dreams and the like?'11


NE IS AMAZED to note how imaginary contradictions can be built between what Socrates believed and what he actually experienced. He is known, of course, to have criticized the so-called Greek gods and disparaged the reliability of their revelation through oracles, but whenever he spoke of his personal experience he never ridiculed, even once, his own Divine revelation or dreams. The author has done no justice to him by adding 'through oracles' after 'divine revelation'. The personal Divine revelation of which Socrates has spoken, as quoted above, has no mention whatsoever of any 'oracles'. Invariably when he speaks of his personal experience he speaks of 'God' in singular, with capital G, and not of 'gods'. When he mentions the poets' visions, as though they were god-given, he only uses such expressions as a figure of speech, not meaning them to be actually 'God-given':

'Yes, what the inspired poet puts into his poem is a wonderful, god-given thing; but it isn't knowledge—it can't be knowledge for it is mindless.'12

His criticism that 'it is not knowledge - it can't be knowledge for it is mindless', is absolutely in accordance with the common practice of poetic expressions. No doubt there is a sort of magic in some poetry as though God were speaking through the poet's tongue, but a sensible man would not take this too seriously. For Socrates to speak of a poet as 'god-possessed,' may also have referred to the Athenians' superstitious views of people being possessed by 'gods'. Such expressions are poles apart from the language which Socrates uses for himself. He is never God-possessed but is only addressed by Him as a humble servant of His.

He makes it clear that the poetic experiences which may seem Divine are certainly not so. Whatever their import, they can at best be described as inspiration, not Divine Revelation:

'I soon perceived that it is not through knowledge that poets produce their poems but through a sort of inborn gift and in a state of inspiration...'13

However, the conclusion drawn by Vlastos from the same passage drives the reader out of his mind, rather than the poet he refers to as being driven 'out of his mind':

'...when the god is in him the poet is "out of his mind," ...'13

Again he absolves Socrates of irrationality by declaring:

'Socrates has disarmed the irrationalist potential of the belief in supernatural gods communicating with human beings by supernatural signs.'14

We respectfully yet strongly disagree with him when he assumes that the same applied to Socrates' own experiences. Only two pages after what he has concluded about the nature of the supernatural commands of others, the author has to admit that the God of Socrates was different:

'Because, as we saw earlier, unlike their gods, Socrates' god is invariantly good, incapable of causing any evil to anyone in any way at any time. Since to deceive a man is to do evil to him, Socrates' god cannot be lying.'15

Further, in the same chapter, he rightly attributes a concept of worship to Socrates which was distinctly opposed to the so-called worship of the Athenians. The worship of Athenians according to him was:

'...an art of commercial exchanges between gods and men.'16

Their worship had to be rebuffed because they, the Athenians, make gods appear dependent on them by whatever is offered at their altar, but the God of Socrates—who is wrongly referred to as "gods" by the author:

'... stand in no need of gifts from us, while we are totally dependent on their gifts to us...'16

Evidently, Socratic treatment of Athenian worship is with reference to their polytheistic godhead which may be referred to in plural, but it should be remembered here that the word 'god', whenever used in plural by Socrates, does not always indicate the Athenian gods which were just a product of their fancy. A careful study of Socrates reveals that by the term 'gods', he sometimes refers to angels or any other spiritual form of life above men and under God. However when he speaks of his own experience, he totally discards the plurality and begins to refer to one God.

'I believe that no greater good has ever come to you in the city than this service of mine to the god.'17

(Note the singleness of God in relation to the mission bestowed to him.)

His religio-political philosophy was always at one with the universal trend of Divine teachings. No prophet of God is recorded in history to have risen in revolt against the law of the land, but when the state interfered with his obedience to God, he unhesitatingly rejected the state power without fear and followed the dictates of God.

The same was the philosophy of Socrates. He was absolutely loyal to the state but when loyalty to the state contradicted his loyalty to God, the only conclusion he drew for himself was to discard the lesser loyalty for the sake of the higher one which was due only to the Creator. Addressing the senate which was about to convict him to death, he spoke of this with unperturbed composure and dignity:

'... Men of Athens, I honor and love you; but I shall obey God rather than you, and while I have life and strength I shall never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy ...' 18

(Note that Jowett always writes 'God' with a capital 'G' when he relates Him to Socrates.)

When the Athenians offered him release from the death penalty on the condition that he should stop 'corrupting' the youth of Athens by instigating them to defy the Athenian gods and obey his own, Socrates refused them outright. There is a long discourse on this issue between him and Meletus, his chief prosecutor. During this, Meletus insists that his defiance of Athenian gods, despite his assertion that he believed in one God, is tantamount to absolute atheism and as such he must be condemned to death. Socrates' obedience to God stood higher than his obedience to the law of Athens. He stood by it and was felled for it, but before his death delivered to the people of Athens this prophetic warning in the following words:

'... you may think, but for yours, that you may not sin against the God, or lightly reject his boon by condemning me. For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me,...'19

Having said that he goes on building the case of his innocence with incontrovertible logic, clinching the issue finally by an argument which will for ever pay tribute to his greatness. Jowett quotes him as saying:

'...not even the impudence of my accusers dares to say that I have ever exacted or sought pay of any one; they have no witness of that. And I have a witness of the truth of what I say; my poverty is a sufficient witness.'19

He also invokes his past conduct to stand witness by his side and to bear testimony to the truth of his present behaviour.

Then referring to a past incident which singled him out as the only person who dared to oppose the might of the entire senate he declared:

'...I cared not a straw for death, and that my only fear was the fear of doing an unrighteous or unholy thing. For the strong arm of that oppressive power did not frighten me into doing wrong...'20

Socrates, would not demean himself like many so-called nobles in his place might have done. So he goes on to elaborate:

'I have seen men of reputation, when they have been condemned, behaving in the strangest manner: they seemed to fancy that they were going to suffer something dreadful if they died, and that they could be immortal if you only allowed them to live; ...'21

'Do not then require me to do what I consider dishonorable and impious and wrong, especially now, when I am being tried for impiety on the indictment of Meletus.'21

What follows indicates that despite his unshakeable belief in Unity, he also believed in some god-like figures to whom he attributes a different and nobler sense, which does not apply to the so-called gods of Athenians. He speaks of them exactly in the same sense as 'angels' are referred to in other Divinely revealed religions. Thus his belief in gods in the sense of angels was certainly not contradictory to his belief in one God. When he commits his cause finally, it is not to them—the gods of Athens—that he commits it. He commits his cause to the people of Athens and to God:

'And to you and to God I commit my cause...'22

Even to the minutest detail, Socrates is just like any other Prophet mentioned in the Holy Quran and other scriptures. He condemned suicide as an offence against God because he treated life as His gift of which He remained the sole Master. In Phaedo, he is reported to have spoken at length with powerful arguments against the legality of suicide which he considered absolutely unpardonable. Thus, he pronounces his judgment on the issue of suicide:

'...there may be reason in saying that a man should wait, and not take his own life until God summons him, as he is now summoning me.'23

His discourse continued until he was interrupted by Crito from whose gestures he understood that he wanted to say something. He dismissed him and all that he wanted to say on behalf of the attendant who was to administer him the poison. The attendant had suggested that if he talked too much it would weaken the effect of the poison and he would be obliged to drink it two or three times. He showed scant respect with regards to the suggestion and the discomfort which his discourses could have caused him. 'Let him mind his business' answered Socrates 'and be prepared to give the poison two or three times.'

'And now I will make answer to you, O my judges,'—here he only refers as judges to those of his admirers who had gathered around him during his last moments—'and show that he who has lived as a true philosopher has reason to be of good cheer when he is about to die, and that after death he may hope to receive the greatest good in the other world.'24

Thus he continued to teach the Divine philosophy to the people of Athens until he put the opiate to his lips. Even as life was slowly ebbing out, as long as he had strength to speak, he continued to discharge his Divine commission never ceasing, before death silenced him at last.

Thus came to an end the life of one of the most glorious prophets of God who lived in the fifth century BC (a contemporary of Buddhaas). Like Buddha, he never wrote his scriptures but they were recorded by his contemporaries and committed to writing later in the form of his Dialogues. Buddha too was accused of atheism because he denied the gods of the Brahmans.

The greatest service he did to philosophy is summed up by Chambers Encyclopaedia in the following words:

'Socrates, in bringing down philosophy from the skies to the common life of men (as Cicero put it), was only carrying out in a conspicuous and earnest way one of the new intellectual tendencies of his age.'25

'He was indifferent to luxury and even to ordinary comfort; but he was by no means an ascetic.'25

As for the nature of his Divine Revelation, the author of the above-quoted article, states:

'There has been much discussion about the "divine sign" () of which Socrates used to speak as a supernatural voice which frequently gave him guidance, according to Xenophon telling him to act or not to act, according to Plato only restraining him from action, never instigating. Later writers, especially in Christian times, speak of it as a daemon, genius or attendant spirit. For this there is no authority whatever in Plato and Xenophon.'25

'... he seems to have had certain vivid presentiments which he took for special divine monitions; and it is possible, as has been suggested, that he was subject to occasional hallucinations of hearing, such as may occur even in quite sane and healthy persons.'25

Socrates' revelation is thus respectfully dismissed as hallucination.

In reality, there is no contradiction in Socrates. Whatever contradiction there is, has to be in the mind of the author who apparently defended Socrates by suggesting that his hallucinations were not all that bad as those of psychic people suffering from mental aberrations. Hallucinations can also sometimes be experienced by sane healthy persons as in the case of Socrates.


Please do not insult any religious books here. When someone insults your Qu'ran or your Prophets, you hypocrites go around killing ambassadors and burning flags, but when you insult our religions, we are supposed to remain calm?

Actually, I did not insult. My religion says Bible and Torah were once divine originated books but later got degenerated. Also I am a secular Muslim and I also denounce those acts in Arabic countries. If you wanna discuss further, I can create a new thread for the sake of not derailing this one.


Saladin's brothers' names were Turan-shah and Tughtekin. There is no doubt that these names are Turkish, but many sources say he was a Kurd though. I'm not sure.

Gökçe Fırat'tan Türk Yurdu Anadolu'yu oku derim hocam.

[ChildOfTheJin]

1)There is not a verse about Qu'ran can't be translated to another language.
2) and 3) Qu'ran declares that "in old times prophets were sent to every nation". I believe Socrates was a prophet, for example.

Your first point doesn't make sence


Bullshit. Yezidianism was formed later than Islam and Islam was not formed, it is divine originated.

Sorry not Yezidism but the others definitely yes


and Bible is like collection of legends and tales but Qu'ran gives you orders. Qu'ran is definitely different than degenerated books like Bible and Torah.

Judaism and Christianity are older religions than Islam and all those "common" prophets were stolen by Arabs from the Jews and Christians. That is enough to prove that Islam is a fake.


What about receiving logistical support

The rebels were ex Hamidyen soldiers and so they already had weapons and knowledge on military strategies.


http://quran.com/109

Then that is really messed up considering the history of Islam, and are you denying this special tax occurred?


I wouldn't believe since Kurdish ethnicity did not exist before 19.th century. The best proof of existence of a language is gravestone writings. All Kurdish "gravestone writings" are from last 50 years, at least in SE Turkey.

Neither did a Turkish ethnicity exist, "Turks" called themselves Ottomans and Kurdish tribes called themselves Kurds but instead of being loyal to being Kurdish they were loyal to a tribe. The holy book of Yezidis was written hundreds of years ago and it is in Kurmanji Kurdish and it was written in 1400 AD. Also, in 1787 an Italian priest called Maurizio Garzoni published the first Kurdish grammar book.


Sorry, this slant-eyed Turanid looks Turkic as hell:

This is not evidence, I have a portrait of Saladin being a negro with Arabid influence. I also know a Afgan that looks like the guy you showed.


You talk too much nonsense, "izahı olmayan şeylerin mizahı olur."

Prove me wrong


A wiki article without links? Cool story!


Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani mentions in his book Finding the Truth in Judging the Companinons, 10 hadithes which are quoted by Jaban.


Also if an article is not reliable (with no links etc) then wiki will remove it. Obviously, this is reliable.


Saladin's brothers' names were Turan-shah and Tughtekin. There is no doubt that these names are Turkish, but many sources say he was a Kurd though. I'm not sure.

Well his ethnicity is debated but most people do believe he is Kurdish. He also has an uncle called Shirkuh which means "lion of the mountains" in Kurdish.

Since he has brothers with Turkish names, there is a chance of Saladins mother being a Turk.

I don't really think Saladin cared about his ethnicity though, he believed in unity of Muslims.

[Wolverine]

The quran is fake written by extremist people, it can't be used as a source to do something because I could use Lord of The Rings as a source, I coule use Alice in Wonderland as a source. Religion is nothing other than crap, I could say fuck god a thousand times on one day without anything happening to me, I could could claim that I could destroy the entire universe with my cock. We all know there isn't a god, if there were he probably left us after the crucification of Jesus.

Muslims, claim that you can't eat pork, but why not quit eating animals entirely? why make the animals suffer and slaugther their blood out? Even if you quit eating animals, they consider it controversial.

[legolasbozo]

The quran is fake written by extremist people, it can't be used as a source to do something because I could use Lord of The Rings as a source, I coule use Alice in Wonderland as a source. Religion is nothing other than crap, I could say fuck god a thousand times on one day without anything happening to me, I could could claim that I could destroy the entire universe with my cock. We all know there isn't a god, if there were he probably left us after the crucification of Jesus.

Muslims, claim that you can't eat pork, but why not quit eating animals entirely? why make the animals suffer and slaugther their blood out? Even if you quit eating animals, they consider it controversial.

off topic

İ m not a true practicisng muslim but i believe God. İ believe it not because social dynamics but ration. "There isn't any god, if it would be it would extinguish my existence" Who do you think you are? Why do you think you are so important so god has to handle with you? Arrogance is the best trick of evil. Atheist believes that if god show himself then they could decide to believe. İf that would be an option, today we would talk who is believe most, not whether god is existing or not. As a muslim, i believe that this world is an examination, except being a good man, we need to make some religious practies to keep our faith tough. We are just a microorganisms in the universe, nothing more. 70-60 years before whole world was killing each other, and too too many muslim countries still doing this, sad but true. There are too many questions about world, religions, god, existence etc. but if we can't respond them within our knowledge, it doesn't mean there isn't any answer.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

The quran is fake written by extremist people, it can't be used as a source to do something because I could use Lord of The Rings as a source, I coule use Alice in Wonderland as a source. Religion is nothing other than crap, I could say fuck god a thousand times on one day without anything happening to me, I could could claim that I could destroy the entire universe with my cock. We all know there isn't a god, if there were he probably left us after the crucification of Jesus.

Muslims, claim that you can't eat pork, but why not quit eating animals entirely? why make the animals suffer and slaugther their blood out? Even if you quit eating animals, they consider it controversial.

What about bible? Do you believe in Zombie Jesus is The son of God?
I guess still you do..
BTW ,We used to eat meat before Islam remember ,we were nomadic herders and eating meat still is a part of our culture ..

Being vegetarian doesn't mean you care animals ,if your civilisation left no place for their survival .Also farm animals live miserable lives in 2x2 cells in modern farms ,unable to move ,walk ,breed ,live a life, how important how they died?

..Amerinds ,Inuits ,Mongols all eat meat but they do not harm nature and they don't extinct their entire specie ..Actually Genghis Khan laws were first ecologic laws punishing destruction of environment ,polluting water ,excessive and inappropriate hunting..When white men came to Amerika they hunted all buffalo ,just took their skins and left the rest of it under sun to rot ..while Amerinds were using every part of it without wasting ,they were aware that an animal is died for their wellbeing ,showing great respect to animals life..

Now same white men came and teaching me animal rights.I am not buying it..Buried my heart to wounded knee already.

[Wolverine]

Bullshit. Yezidianism was formed later than Islam and Islam was not formed, it is divine originated. Read Torah and Bible, later read Qu'ran. Torah and Bible is like collection of legends and tales but Qu'ran gives you orders. Qu'ran is definitely different than degenerated books like Bible and Torah.
Yezidism is an Aryan religion older than both Judaism, Chistianity and Islam. But you muslims claimed it was a subgroup of Islam and you burned the holy books and killed your way through converting the Kurds.


I wouldn't believe since Kurdish ethnicity did not exist before 19.th century. The best proof of existence of a language is gravestone writings. All Kurdish "gravestone writings" are from last 50 years, at least in SE Turkey.
Kurdish identity existed long before even you Turks invaded the west, back then the Kurds were called Gutians.


Atheist believes that if god show himself then they could decide to believe.
No those are agnostics you're on about, athiests believes there's no god, and we don't need any god.


İf that would be an option, today we would talk who is believe most, not whether god is existing or not. As a muslim, i believe that this world is an examination, except being a good man, we need to make some religious practies to keep our faith tough.
Many people (especially muslims) just use religions to sod on each other and to make themselves feel better of it, but in reality it's a waste of time and life is too short for all that crap.


We are just a microorganisms in the universe, nothing more. 70-60 years before whole world was killing each other, and too too many muslim countries still doing this, sad but true. There are too many questions about world, religions, god, existence etc. but if we can't respond them within our knowledge, it doesn't mean there isn't any answer.
Then I'll say good luck finding the answer.

[Cannabis Sativa]

Yezidism is an Aryan religion

Of course it is an Aryan religion. Then those Mongolic Turks came and eventually ended Aryan customs. Otherwise there would be more Nordic Aryan presence in Anatolia. Shame on Turks, they even destroyed Hindu-Pundi-Aryan monuments in Anatolia. In fact Niagara falls which was a part of Aryan heritage was in Anatolia, Turks came and stole those Niagara falls then sold it to evul U.S, but the mainstream media covered it. May Taus-i Melek protect you.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Of course it is an Aryan religion. Then those Mongolic Turks came and eventually ended Aryan customs. Otherwise there would be more Nordic Aryan presence in Anatolia. Shame on Turks, they even destroyed Hindu-Pundi-Aryan monuments in Anatolia. In fact Niagara falls which was a part of Aryan heritage was in Anatolia, Turks came and stole those Niagara falls then sold it to evul U.S, but the mainstream media covered it. May Taus-i Melek protect you.

Kurds didn't abuse the term, the Nazis did, we have called ourselves Aryans before Hitler was even born.

[agality]

Kurds didn't abuse the term, the Nazis did, we have called ourselves Aryans before Hitler was even born.

Excuse me. Do you claim that Kurds are Aryan?

[ChildOfTheJin]

Excuse me. Do you claim that Kurds are Aryan?

We have Aryan roots, a fact that no one can deny.

[agality]

If we are talking about the term Aryan as the same way Nazis used, and Kurds are Aryan, then i'm possibly this:
http://www.fantastic-four.nl/thor-the-mighty-asgard.gif

[ChildOfTheJin]

If we are talking about the term Aryan as the same way Nazis used, and Kurds are Aryan, then i'm possibly this:
http://www.fantastic-four.nl/thor-the-mighty-asgard.gif

Nope, not the way Nazis used it, the way Indo Iranian people used it.

[Wolverine]

Excuse me. Do you claim that Kurds are Aryan?
Lol where have you learnt history? Kurds have Aryan roots, and the Gutians and Medes were white and blonde haired people, but during the brutal Assyrian empire the Assyrians raped and mixed massively, the Medes, Persians and Babylonians united and destroyed the Assyrian Empire and the Kurds turned into other people.

[Wolverine]

Kurds didn't abuse the term, the Nazis did, we have called ourselves Aryans before Hitler was even born.
No one ever abused the word, and Europeans are the true descendants of the Aryans. The word is the name given to an ancient people who originated in what is today the steppes of southern Russia and Ukraine some 10,000 years ago and who spoke a proto-Aryan language. This ancient people who were considered to be a warrior nation eventually spread out all over Europe, Asia, and the Middle East and even invaded ancient Egypt.

[ChildOfTheJin]

No one ever abused the word, and Europeans are the true descendants of the Aryans. The word is the name given to an ancient people who originated in what is today the steppes of southern Russia and Ukraine some 10,000 years ago and who spoke a proto-Aryan language. This ancient people who were considered to be a warrior nation eventually spread out all over Europe, Asia, and the Middle East and even invaded ancient Egypt.

What I meant was is that Hitler gave the idea that Aryans can only be Aryans if they have blonde hair and blue eyes but he also said there are other Aryan that are sort of second class. This is what they teach in schools today and I consider it to be false

In short, it's because of Hitler, or rather the things they teach in schools, that when I say Kurds are Aryans, people look at me is if I'm an idiot.

[agality]

Lol where have you learnt history? Kurds have Aryan roots, and the Gutians and Medes were white and blonde haired people, but during the brutal Assyrian empire the Assyrians raped and mixed massively, the Medes, Persians and Babylonians united and destroyed the Assyrian Empire and the Kurds turned into other people.

There are claims about Kurdish people are descendants of Gutians and Medes but they aren't proved yet. Some Kurds may have Gutian or Medes roots.

[Mjora]

Responding to Turkish Prime Minister who has recently said that “PKK members can go to other countries after laying their arms down”, Karayılan evaluated Erdoğan's statement as an attack against the Kurdish people and their values and added;

I must say our PM's suggestion is ridicolous.

[Mjora]

Lol where have you learnt history? Kurds have Aryan roots, and the Gutians and Medes were white and blonde haired people, but during the brutal Assyrian empire the Assyrians raped and mixed massively, the Medes, Persians and Babylonians united and destroyed the Assyrian Empire and the Kurds turned into other people.

Nordicist Propaganda :rolleyes:

[Wolverine]

Nordicist Propaganda :rolleyes:
Ban please...

[Xenomorph]

There are claims about Kurdish people are descendants of Gutians and Medes but they aren't proved yet. Some Kurds may have Gutian or Medes roots.

Considering the number of peoples that have flowed through that region, probably everybody there is descended from dozens of different ancient ethnicities.

[Xenomorph]

Ban please...


http://www.thelas.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/someone-on-the-internet-is-wrong2.jpg

[Mjora]

Ban please...
Prove your claim :cool::
Gutians and Medes were white and blonde haired people

[ChildOfTheJin]

Prove your claim :cool::

Gutians were blonde haired people but the Medes just seem to have typical Iranid looks according to their images at Persepolis and other places

[Wolverine]

Prove your claim :cool::
Allright, but read some more history, dummy. :thumb001: and learn what "Nordicist" actually means. This is supposed to be an anthropoligal forum, not a classroom for the uneducated.

''The Early History of Babylonia", Henry H. Howorth, The English Historical Review, Vol. 16, No. 61 (Jan. 1901), p.32.
The Old Testament in the Light of the Historical Records and Legends of Assyria and Babylonia, Theophilus Goldridge Pinches, Kessinger Publishing, 2005 (reprint), p. 158
The Sumerians, Leonard Woolley, Clarendon Press, 1929, p. 5.
Hurrians and Subarians, Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Gelb, 1944, p.88.

http://iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/Images/sumer_asmos_blueeyesa.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m96sf6UYiz1revlvdo1_500.jpg
http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/saltmanx-large.jpg

http://www.metmuseum.org/pubs/bulletins/1/pdf/3269235.pdf.bannered.pdf

Scythians were an ancient Iranian people who lived the same period as the Medes, they have always both been known as Aryans, and they came from the same country. I doubt some of the Medes weren't smilliar in terms of skin and haircolor, since they were very close genetically and historically.

[Mjora]

Gutians were blonde haired people but the Medes just seem to have typical Iranid looks according to their images at Persepolis and other places

Source please ?

[Mjora]

Allright, but read some more history, dummy. :thumb001: and learn what "Nordicist" actually means. This is supposed to be an anthropoligal forum, not a classroom for the uneducated.

:bored0:


''The Early History of Babylonia", Henry H. Howorth, The English Historical Review, Vol. 16, No. 61 (Jan. 1901), p.32.
The Old Testament in the Light of the Historical Records and Legends of Assyria and Babylonia, Theophilus Goldridge Pinches, Kessinger Publishing, 2005 (reprint), p. 158
The Sumerians, Leonard Woolley, Clarendon Press, 1929, p. 5.
Hurrians and Subarians, Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Gelb, 1944, p.88.

Scythians were an ancient Iranian people who lived the same period as the Medes, they have always both been known as Aryans, and they came from the same country. I doubt some of the Medes weren't smilliar in terms of skin and haircolor, since they were very close genetically and historically.

Let's see who are Gutians :

Next to nothing is known about their origins, as no "Gutian" artifacts have surfaced from that time; little information is gleaned from the contemporary sources.[4] Nothing is known of their language either, apart from those Sumerian king names, and that it was distinct from other known languages of the region (such as Sumerian, Akkadian, Hurrian, Hittite and Elamite).

How about their physcial appearance:

According to the historian Henry Hoyle Howorth (1901), Assyriologist Theophilus Pinches (1908), renowned archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1929) and Assyriologist Ignace Gelb (1944) the Gutians were pale skinned and blonde haired. This identification of the Gutians as fair haired first came to light when Julius Oppert (1877) published a set of tablets he had discovered which described Gutian (and Subarian) slaves as namrum or namrûtum, meaning "light colored" or "fair-skinned".This racial character of the Gutians as blondes or being light skinned was also taken up by Georges Vacher de Lapouge in 1899 and later by historian Sidney Smith in his Early history of Assyria (1928). Ephraim Avigdor Speiser however criticised the translation of "namrum" as "light colored". An article was published by Speiser in the Journal of the American Oriental Society attacking Gelb's translation. Gelb in response accused Speiser of circular reasoning. In response Speiser claimed the scholarship regarding the translation of "namrum" or "namrûtum" is unresolved.[20]

[Wolverine]

:bored0:


Let's see who are Gutians :


How about their physcial appearance:
All you can do is copying a wikipedia text claiming nothing is known about them, when in fact everything is known about their appearance and origin, which is from Mesopotamia? :confused:

[Mjora]

All you can do is copying a wikipedia text claiming nothing is known about them, when in fact everything is known about their appearance and origin, which is from Mesopotamia? :confused:

I'm not spreading propaganda like you.There's not much known about them,that's the truth.:cool:

[Hayalet]

Wolverine

Ethnicity: Danish
Nice joke.

[Wolverine]

I'm not spreading propaganda like you.There's not much known about them,that's the truth.:cool:
Spreading propaganda? You were the one asking me for sources, dummy, I showed you well known and acknowledged sources and mummies of the ancient Iranians, are you now claiming they're all fake and "nordicist propaganda"?

Gutians were a white people, no matter how much is known, they came from Mesopotamia. You're the one spreading your Turkish propaganda, if you wanna start to claim that Gutians aren't from Mesopotamia, then I'll claim that Turks are negroes.:thumb001:

But you haven't even read these books which tells much more, than your worthless wikipedia text.

''The Early History of Babylonia", Henry H. Howorth, The English Historical Review, Vol. 16, No. 61 (Jan. 1901), p.32.
The Old Testament in the Light of the Historical Records and Legends of Assyria and Babylonia, Theophilus Goldridge Pinches, Kessinger Publishing, 2005 (reprint), p. 158
The Sumerians, Leonard Woolley, Clarendon Press, 1929, p. 5.
Hurrians and Subarians, Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Gelb, 1944, p.88.

[Mjora]

Spreading propaganda? You were the one asking me for sources, dummy, I showed you well known and acknowledged sources and mummies of the ancient Iranians, are you now claiming they're all fake and "nordicist propaganda"?

Gutians were a white people, no matter how much is known, they came from Mesopotamia. You're the one spreading your Turkish propaganda, if you wanna start to claim that Gutians aren't from Mesopotamia, then I'll claim that Turks are negroes.:thumb001:

But you haven't even read these books which tells much more, than your worthless wikipedia text.

''The Early History of Babylonia", Henry H. Howorth, The English Historical Review, Vol. 16, No. 61 (Jan. 1901), p.32.
The Old Testament in the Light of the Historical Records and Legends of Assyria and Babylonia, Theophilus Goldridge Pinches, Kessinger Publishing, 2005 (reprint), p. 158
The Sumerians, Leonard Woolley, Clarendon Press, 1929, p. 5.
Hurrians and Subarians, Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Gelb, 1944, p.88.

Fact: Gutians are a Northern Mesopotamian folk whose language is unknown

Fiction:Guti resemble the word Kurd so they should be related to Kurds therefore they were Indo-Aryan.

Fact: One or two people translated a word decribing Gutians as ''fair skinned''.But later other scientists critisiced this.There's no consensus among scholars that they were fair haired of light skinned.

Fiction: They were Indo-Aryan which means they were blond/blue eyed.

Fact:Even if we accept that they were blonde/blue eyed people that doesn't mean they were IE.

Fiction:Wherever you find a light pigmented folk they should be classified as IE.

[Wolverine]

Fact: Gutians are a Northern Mesopotamian folk whose language is unknown

Fiction:Guti resemble the word Kurd so they should be related to Kurds therefore they were Indo-Aryan.

Fact: One or two people translated a word decribing Gutians as ''fair skinned''.But later other scientists critisiced this.There's no consensus among scholars that they were fair haired of light skinned.

Fiction: They were Indo-Aryan which means they were blond/blue eyed.

Fact:Even if we accept that they were blonde/blue eyed people that doesn't mean they were IE.

Fiction:Wherever you find a light pigmented folk they should be classified as IE.
No they were not Aryan, they were not Semitic either, they were Caucasian, which practically means the same as Aryan, just like Georgians."Kurd" is most likely an Iranized term of "Guti" do you think the similliarity is a coincedence?

But they lived long ago, so that's not much important, the latest decendants of the Kurds are the Medes who were white Aryans. And it's been proven that the Gorani dialect is identical with the Mede language. And it's no surprise that you can find 10-20% of the Kurds today who look to have enough genes to be considered Aryan. You can also find many Kurds who have blonde or red hair and other Aryan features.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4814607315_9ea4f8fe86.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/22/celalabdulganiayar.jpg/
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/211/c/a/kurt_kizi__kurdish_girl_by_aliozturk-d425dxx.jpg

[Frenchyy]

Are Laze friend of Kurds???

Turkish Laze Kurmancî Zazakî
davet ç'anda vexwendin[1] mom[2]
yürek guri gurçik[3] zerrî[4]
tas kva kevir[5] kemer[6]
kelebek parpali perperik[7] perperik[8]
ezmek zeri[9] zêrandin[10] -
mısır lazut'i lazût[11] lazut[12]
ates daçxuri xurî[13] adir[14]
kül mt'veri arî[15] wele[16]
toprak dixa xak[17] hard[18]
su wari av[19] awe/awi[20]
dere 1 oruba robar[21] çhem
dere 2 ç'ala newal[22] la[23]
hayvan skindina kedanî[24] heywan
tavan ç'eri orik[25] çêrang[26]
ağıt bgara girî[27] lawike
ağlamak bgarini girîn[28] berbene/zirrene[29]
dana negeni/gini nogin/conega[30] mozike
yavru monta mindal[31] soe
kurt mgeri gur[32] verg
yeşil xanç'eni xang[33] khêwe
bacak polo pê pole[34]

And do you know what means "mjora" in kurdish????
"m jor a" "moon upon is" "moon high is" so mjora in kurdish is "the moon which is high/upon" so the sun....

[Frenchyy]

I did give here just some exemple, yes there was a kurdish-laze relationship because there are common kurdish-laze words!!!!!!!