Viking Surnames Across Ireland

[Grace O'Malley]

Please move if not in the correct forum.

I thought this map was interesting. I didn't think there were so many Viking derived surnames in Ireland.

http://www.worldirish.com/story/17483-mapped-viking-derived-surnames-dotted-across-ireland

The Blood of the Vikings only used 2 sites in Ireland to test. The sites were Rush (north of Dublin) and Castlerea in Roscommon and didn't find much Viking dna. Two sites are not enough I don't think. They tested 9 sites in Scotland and I think it was 11 in England.

There is a new study looking at families in Wexford, Limerick and Galway to look for Viking and Norman dna. I was always under the impression that there is not much Germanic dna in Ireland so it will be interesting to see if anything comes from these studies.
http://www.inhp.com/2012/10/16/do-you-have-viking-or-norman-dna/

I was wondering is someone could explain this study and does it show actual viking ancestry in this individual?
http://www.irishorigenes.com/content/first-case-study-exhibiting-viking-ancestry-added-irish-origenes

[Graham]

The Blood of the Vikings only used 2 sites in Ireland to test. The sites were Rush (north of Dublin) and Castlerea in Roscommon and didn't find much Viking dna. Two sites are not enough I don't think. They tested 9 sites in Scotland and I think it was 11 in England.

There is a new study looking at families in Wexford, Limerick and Galway to look for Viking and Norman dna

They should have tested South of Dublin..down to Wexford & Waterford. Where there's a few Blonde Irish lurking about.

[Anglojew]

A lot of those surnames are probably Anglo-Irish rather than Viking.

[Grace O'Malley]

A lot of these names have been traced back to the time of the Vikings. Names below just to give you an example. Names like McManus and O'Rourke are obviously not English settler names.
http://www.houseofnames.com/broderick-family-crest
http://www.houseofnames.com/mcmanus-family-crest
http://www.houseofnames.com/o-rourke-family-crest

The Broderick name could be from before the Norse invasions so not sure about it but this name is not from English settlement.

Some of the surnames came with the Normans so yes they could be from that time.

[Grace O'Malley]

The name Sigerson is definitely a viking name. The name traces back to the Battle of Clontarf. Actually there are quite a few names there that are of Viking origin like Sugrue. Sugrue is the anglicized form of the Gaelic OSiochfhradha. The prefix "O" signifies "descendant of" and "Siochfhradha" is derived from the Norse personal name Sigefrith. It is thought that the surname originated in County Kerry and seems to have been almost entirely confined at one time to that region of Ireland.

What I find interesting is that Sugrue is from Kerry which is the west of Ireland where there is not supposed to be Vikings.

[Leon_C]

They should have tested South of Dublin..down to Wexford & Waterford. Where there's a few Blonde Irish lurking about.

There are loads of blondes in Dublin, or at least the airport staff are predominantly blonde.

[Grace O'Malley]

There are loads of blondes in Dublin, or at least the airport staff are predominantly blonde.

I'm always baffled on these kind of forums as blond hair is supposed to be so rare in Ireland. I'm Irish and there are quite a few blonds in my family. I don't think blond hair is as rare in Ireland as it is made out to be. I don't know where people get their information from. Ireland has all the range of hair colours.

[Aunt Hilda]

I'm always baffled on these kind of forums as blond hair is supposed to be so rare in Ireland. I'm Irish and there are quite a few blonds in my family. I don't think blond hair is as rare in Ireland as it is made out to be. I don't know where people get their information from. Ireland has all the range of hair colours.
http://www.buzzlol.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Meanwhile-in-ireland.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

That's funny Migla. They are redheads though and I think that is in the Netherlands. They do have redhead gatherings in Ireland also.
http://www.thegatheringireland.com/Attend-A-Gathering/Individual-Gathering/Irish-Redhead-Convention/24%20August%202013/520#.UOmLpOSu2rk

http://www.thegatheringireland.com/User_Uploaded_Files/__CCPZTF_95403ec2cba54a339a229526e2cd7d68__p-jpg.aspx

[Aunt Hilda]

That's funny Migla. There are redheads though and I think that is in the Netherlands. They do have redhead gatherings in Ireland also.
http://www.thegatheringireland.com/Attend-A-Gathering/Individual-Gathering/Irish-Redhead-Convention/24%20August%202013/520#.UOmLpOSu2rk

http://www.thegatheringireland.com/User_Uploaded_Files/__CCPZTF_95403ec2cba54a339a229526e2cd7d68__p-jpg.aspx

To be honest Scots are much more ginger, then again we are technically the same people, soo....

[Grace O'Malley]

They are trying to find out how many people in Ireland carry the red hair gene variants. This article also gives some statistics.

http://irelandsdna.com/redhead.html

[Vasa]

Please move if not in the correct forum.

I thought this map was interesting. I didn't think there were so many Viking derived surnames in Ireland.

http://www.worldirish.com/story/17483-mapped-viking-derived-surnames-dotted-across-ireland

The Blood of the Vikings only used 2 sites in Ireland to test. The sites were Rush (north of Dublin) and Castlerea in Roscommon and didn't find much Viking dna. Two sites are not enough I don't think. They tested 9 sites in Scotland and I think it was 11 in England.

There is a new study looking at families in Wexford, Limerick and Galway to look for Viking and Norman dna. I was always under the impression that there is not much Germanic dna in Ireland so it will be interesting to see if anything comes from these studies.
http://www.inhp.com/2012/10/16/do-you-have-viking-or-norman-dna/

I was wondering is someone could explain this study and does it show actual viking ancestry in this individual?
http://www.irishorigenes.com/content/first-case-study-exhibiting-viking-ancestry-added-irish-origenes

People underestimate the Northmens influence in Brittain and the English. Like 4000 words of english language origins from scandinavian tounge. Streets, surnames, the genetic ancestory - big scando influence. This island people is semi-scandos. ;)

[rhiannon]

People underestimate the Northmens influence in Brittain and the English. Like 4000 words of english language origins from scandinavian tounge. Streets, surnames, the genetic ancestory - big scando influence. This island people is semi-scandos. ;)

Many of them certainly look the part, anyway. This goes for all countries of the British Isles.

[Grace O'Malley]

People underestimate the Northmens influence in Brittain and the English. Like 4000 words of english language origins from scandinavian tounge. Streets, surnames, the genetic ancestory - big scando influence. This island people is semi-scandos. ;)

Yes I agree with you Vasa about England and I think it is recognised that parts of England and the islands off the west coast of Scotland have a bit of Northmen influence but I'm not sure about Ireland yet.

Ireland did get a lot from the Viking invasions. Vikings started up the first towns in Ireland Dublin, Wexford, Limerick, Waterford and others that I can't remember without looking up. There have been many Viking artifacts and even towns unearthed (Dublin, Waterford and Annagassan) that I'm aware of.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041018/viking.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/joy-as-mythic-viking-village-found-170117.html
Also the first coins in Ireland were started by the Vikings but where are those Viking genes? They obviously settled there and didn't just raid.

[Grace O'Malley]

The Vikings also traded in Irish slaves so that wasn't so good.

[Grace O'Malley]

http://macdonnellofleinster.org/Viking%20Raids%20Map.jpg

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/the-hunt-for-viking-dna-in-ireland/

Regarding surnames here is a quote from Dr Swift from the above link. "Irish surnames have very clear ethnic diversity, whether they are Norse, Norman, English or Irish. We hope to see if the Vikings who settled in Ireland are directly from Norway, or if they came via England or Normandy.”

[Graham]

Can see a bit of laziness in that map regarding Danelaw.

The North Eastern part, of the Kingdom of Northumbria, wasn't in Danelaw. That would be modern day Northumberland & South East Scotland. Those areas are mainly Angles only.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/England_878.svg/482px-England_878.svg.png


..but anyhoo, back on topic..Tis Ireland.

[Grace O'Malley]

Thanks Graham for the clarification. You seem to know your history very well. Regarding the map that I posted is it true that the Norse went to Scotland and Ireland and the Danes concentrated on England or was it not that cut and dry?

[Jackson]

Also with regards to the Danelaw, what is interesting is that there is a big clump of specifically Scandinavian place names that runs through eastern parts of Yorkshire, Humberside and through the whole of Lincolnshire and down into Cambridgeshire, as well as north Norfolk. Outside these areas those place-names are quite thin on the ground and scattered. I'd be tempted to say they were the only areas of large-scale settlement by Danes in the Viking Age. Although i imagine it all got spread around over the centuries - People move quite a bit but villages and towns almost never do.

@Vasa. Yeah it's interesting that our closest relatives outside the British Isles are Scandinavians and people of the Benelux. Dutch, north/west Germans, British, Irish and Scandinavians all seem to be part of a big NW Euro genetic cluster, although you can separate them all of course with more resolution. Don't know about the Belgians, Flemish and Bretons but i imagine they would be on the edge of it too.

But yeah, back to Ireland.

[Grace O'Malley]

Also with regards to the Danelaw, what is interesting is that there is a big clump of specifically Scandinavian place names that runs through eastern parts of Yorkshire, Humberside and through the whole of Lincolnshire and down into Cambridgeshire, as well as north Norfolk. Outside these areas those place-names are quite thin on the ground and scattered. I'd be tempted to say they were the only areas of large-scale settlement by Danes in the Viking Age. Although i imagine it all got spread around over the centuries - People move quite a bit but villages and towns almost never do.

@Vasa. Yeah it's interesting that our closest relatives outside the British Isles are Scandinavians and people of the Benelux. Dutch, north/west Germans, British, Irish and Scandinavians all seem to be part of a big NW Euro genetic cluster, although you can separate them all of course with more resolution. Don't know about the Belgians, Flemish and Bretons but i imagine they would be on the edge of it too.

But yeah, back to Ireland.

Thanks for the the information Jackson. I'm very interested in the information about the cluster. Do you know if Brittany or Northern France are in that NW Euro cluster?

[Grace O'Malley]

Sorry Jackson I just reread your answer and saw that you don't know about the Bretons.

[Graham]

Thanks Graham for the clarification. You seem to know your history very well. Regarding the map that I posted is it true that the Norse went to Scotland and Ireland and the Danes concentrated on England or was it not that cut and dry?

The Danes did try to take the North East Scotland before the English invasion. Scots under King Malcolm II defeated the Danes in 1012(Battle of Cruden).

If you look at the agriculture of Scotland. The Angles & Danes only properly wanted those areas that were good for farming, Eastern Scotland.

Whereas the Western Norse Vikings pushed into areas that were like Western Norway.

Wet, rocky & not so good agriculture. Good areas to sail through, pillage & steal a slave or two. Good old proper vikings. :p

[Grace O'Malley]

From your post it sounds like the Danes might have been the lesser of two evils as they were prepared to settle down and farm whereas the Norse wanted to ransack and pillage. I know that the Irish called the Danes Dubh-Gall (dark foreigner) and the Norse Fionn-Gall (fair foreigner) so they must have come across the Danes as well?

[Jackson]

Thanks for the the information Jackson. I'm very interested in the information about the cluster. Do you know if Brittany or Northern France are in that NW Euro cluster?

I believe they are on the southern edge of it yeah. At least i know there is a Breton on ABF who has shared his DNA results a couple of times, and he comes out closest to Irish and Cornish people if i remember correctly. It's an interesting place - Has roughly the same levels as R1b-L21 as Ireland and western Britain, and also has some Viking input too (Y-Dna I1 is something like 11% there i think, which is a bit more than the Irish average).

[Jackson]

Sorry Jackson I just reread your answer and saw that you don't know about the Bretons.

Well i don't know about them as a whole population, but if this Breton can be assumed to be quite typical, then they are basically the same as people in the British Isles. And Breton language is similar to Welsh also.

[Jackson]

The Danes did try to take the North East Scotland before the English invasion. Scots under King Malcolm II defeated the Danes in 1012(Battle of Cruden).

If you look at the agriculture of Scotland. The Angles & Danes only properly wanted those areas that were good for farming, Eastern Scotland.

Whereas the Western Norse Vikings pushed into areas that were like Western Norway.

Wet, rocky & not so good agriculture. Good areas to sail through, pillage & steal a slave or two. Good old proper vikings. :p

Give the Norwegians a bad rep... The Danes just wanted to grow their Barley so they could party more. Nothing changes. :D

[Albion]

The Danes did try to take the North East Scotland before the English invasion. Scots under King Malcolm II defeated the Danes in 1012(Battle of Cruden).

If you look at the agriculture of Scotland. The Angles & Danes only properly wanted those areas that were good for farming, Eastern Scotland.

Whereas the Western Norse Vikings pushed into areas that were like Western Norway.

Wet, rocky & not so good agriculture. Good areas to sail through, pillage & steal a slave or two. Good old proper vikings. :p

Gaining East Anglia and the East Midlands would have given Germanics an advantage in Britain. If the geography was opposite, if the east was cold, rocky and unsuited to arable farming then Celts probably would have prevailed.
Regarding eastern Scotland - today it is good for arable farming with hardy strains of wheat and potatoes, but in the past it was all oats rye and not much else. The best agricultural lands in that part of the world, but not as attractive as East Anglia. Apparently some Angles did briefly settled Orkney though.

[Útrám]

A common error within anthroponymy is the misidentification of names from different sub-branches within the same ethnic branch. Many of these names appear to be pre-Viking Anglo-Saxon in origin and even Norman or just simply native Celtic ones. To add to the confusion there's another problem with the names of serfs which stayed intact, names such as Melkorka, Kjartan and Njáll, one may think they're Viking but they're not.

I can spot some obvious ones.

Harold = Haraldur
Kettle = Ketill
Swan = Svanur

Names such as Brazil, Higgins, Gaynor are Gaelic. Tuke sounds more Norman to me rather than directly Norse.

If some other of these names are derived from Norse then most of them must be remotely derivative and/or highly corrupted variants. Which raises the question, if names/words have been altered beyond recognition how relevant becomes the origin?

https://www.irishorigenes.com/sites/default/files/field/image/Viking%20farmers.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

Thanks for all your feedback Graham and Jackson. I was never taught about the Vikings at school as in Australia it is not really a focus understandably. I did read a condensed history book on Ireland which is where I gained my little knowledge about the subject so it is interesting hearing about Britain.

As I said previously I'll be very interested when more information comes out about the People of the British Isles project and when this project on Ireland is updated.

[Jackson]

Thanks for all your feedback Graham and Jackson. I was never taught about the Vikings at school as in Australia it is not really a focus understandably. I did read a condensed history book on Ireland which is where I gained my little knowledge about the subject so it is interesting hearing about Britain.

As I said previously I'll be very interested when more information comes out about the People of the British Isles project and when this project on Ireland is updated.

Yeah i really think there needs to be more time spent on Ireland. It would also be interesting to see if there are genetic clusters associated with tribal boundaries or regions in Ireland as there are in Britain. I'm sure this is the case, but POBI are only covering northern Ireland of course.

[Grace O'Malley]

A common error within anthroponymy is the misidentification of names from different sub-branches within the same ethnic branch. Many of these names appear to be pre-Viking Anglo-Saxon in origin and even Norman or just simply native Celtic ones. To add to the confusion there's another problem with the names of serfs which stayed intact, names such as Melkorka, Kjartan and Njáll, one may think they're Viking but they're not.

I can spot some obvious ones.

Harold = Haraldur
Kettle = Ketill
Swan = Svanur

Names such as Brazil, Higgins, Gaynor are Gaelic. Tuke sounds more Norman to me rather than directly Norse.

If some other of these names are derived from Norse then most of them must be remotely derivative and/or highly corrupted variants. Which raises the question, if names/words have been altered beyond recognition how relevant becomes the origin?

https://www.irishorigenes.com/sites/default/files/field/image/Viking%20farmers.jpg

Some of the names are Norman as they are attempting to find out about Vikings and Normans. It will be interesting what they find as in Ireland some Gaelic Irish adopted some of these Norman names.

I've often wondered if all the Vikings in Ireland did leave and go to places like Iceland and England. This study is a bit more widespread than the Blood of the Vikings so it will be interesting to see what they find.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yeah i really think there needs to be more time spent on Ireland. It would also be interesting to see if there are genetic clusters associated with tribal boundaries or regions in Ireland as there are in Britain. I'm sure this is the case, but POBI are only covering northern Ireland of course.

Thanks Jackson. Yes I know they are only covering northern Ireland but I'm interested in all the British Isles. There are differences in Ireland between West and East (but I'm sure you know that). It would be great if they decided to cover the whole of Ireland as that would be a more full picture. Maybe POBI will expand hopefully.

[evon]

This seems like just nonsense if you ask me, the reason for this is because the Norse Vikings did not at that time use surnames as we do today, they usually used their father or mothers name fused with son/sen Datter/Dottir, but that would change for every son or daughter and not be passed down as its common in modern Scandinavian names, which ironically often is adopted last names rather then from a real relative in the distant past..

[Grace O'Malley]

This seems like just nonsense if you ask me, the reason for this is because the Norse Vikings did not at that time use surnames as we do today, they usually used their father or mothers name fused with son/sen Datter/Dottir, but that would change for every son or daughter and not be passed down as its common in modern Scandinavian names, which ironically often is adopted last names rather then from a real relative in the distant past..

You would hope they would have researched properly. Ireland has used surnames since the time of Brian Boru when the Vikings were there so they would likely have used Irish naming practices after a few generations. At least they are going to test in places where Vikings were know to have settled.

[Albion]

Some of the names are Norman as they are attempting to find out about Vikings and Normans. It will be interesting what they find as in Ireland some Gaelic Irish adopted some of these Norman names.

I've often wondered if all the Vikings in Ireland did leave and go to places like Iceland and England. This study is a bit more widespread than the Blood of the Vikings so it will be interesting to see what they find.

They all didn't pack up and leave, although some would have gone elsewhere. The Dublin Vikings for instance sacked a village in my county and the refugees are supposed to have fled upriver and founded a new town where it was too shallow for boats (especially longboats :D ). That's our foundation myth anyway.
A lot of Dublin Vikings settled NW England along with Vikings directly from the Northern Isles and Norway. Wirral, the Lancashire coast and Cumbria were the main areas settled.


This seems like just nonsense if you ask me, the reason for this is because the Norse Vikings did not at that time use surnames as we do today, they usually used their father or mothers name fused with son/sen Datter/Dottir, but that would change for every son or daughter and not be passed down as its common in modern Scandinavian names, which ironically often is adopted last names rather then from a real relative in the distant past..

But some surnames that are descended from one person or from certain settlements could mean that the bearers carry Norse blood. In England some Viking surnames were adopted because Northern and Eastern England was still Scandinavian dominated when they came into use in Norman times (the kingdom was contended between the an Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian and Norman king). England could easily have become a Danish possession again, but the Danes lost to the Anglo-Saxons and then the Anglo-Saxons to the Normans.
Some surnames such as 'Johnson' can be from either Anglo-Saxons or Scandinavians, although Anglo-Saxons seem to have used the suffix '-son' a lot less.

[Útrám]

This seems like just nonsense if you ask me, the reason for this is because the Norse Vikings did not at that time use surnames as we do today, they usually used their father or mothers name fused with son/sen Datter/Dottir,

Aren't you forgetting someone? ;)

[Smaug]

Hy-Brazil is a beautiful place, you all should come.

[Jackson]

They all didn't pack up and leave, although some would have gone elsewhere. The Dublin Vikings for instance sacked a village in my county and the refugees are supposed to have fled upriver and founded a new town where it was too shallow for boats (especially longboats :D ). That's our foundation myth anyway.
A lot of Dublin Vikings settled NW England along with Vikings directly from the Northern Isles and Norway. Wirral, the Lancashire coast and Cumbria were the main areas settled.



But some surnames that are descended from one person or from certain settlements could mean that the bearers carry Norse blood. In England some Viking surnames were adopted because Northern and Eastern England was still Scandinavian dominated when they came into use in Norman times (the kingdom was contended between the an Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian and Norman king). England could easily have become a Danish possession again, but the Danes lost to the Anglo-Saxons and then the Anglo-Saxons to the Normans.
Some surnames such as 'Johnson' can be from either Anglo-Saxons or Scandinavians, although Anglo-Saxons seem to have used the suffix '-son' a lot less.

It's interesting reading the Domesday book. In areas outside the core Danelaw area it seems typical Old England as you would expect, with some Norman names too. But then as soon as you get into the heart of the Danelaw, you'd be forgiven for thinking you were in Denmark itself, judging by the majority of the place-names and personal names. It's a really stark contrast.

[Graham]

If some other of these names are derived from Norse then most of them must be remotely derivative and/or highly corrupted variants. Which raises the question, if names/words have been altered beyond recognition how relevant becomes the origin?


In Shetland you only have to go back a couple of centuries & surnames weren't as relevant.. Like William Robertson had a son called Williamson..and so on. The Scots names are the easiest to track.

For example a part of family tree..

http://imageshack.us/a/img138/3482/shetland.jpg

[evon]

You would hope they would have researched properly. Ireland has used surnames since the time of Brian Boru when the Vikings were there so they would likely have used Irish naming practices after a few generations. At least they are going to test in places where Vikings were know to have settled.

I would expect the names to be very fluid in those days, i would not rely on mere surnames in staking a claim to certain ancestry.


In Ireland, the use of surnames has a very old history. Ireland was the first country in Europe to use fixed surnames. As noted in the Annals, the first recorded fixed surname was Ó Cleirigh which recorded the death of Tigherneach Ua Cleirigh, lord of Aidhne in Co. Galway in the year 916.[6]

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/magazine/surname/index.htm






But some surnames that are descended from one person or from certain settlements could mean that the bearers carry Norse blood. In England some Viking surnames were adopted because Northern and Eastern England was still Scandinavian dominated when they came into use in Norman times (the kingdom was contended between the an Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian and Norman king). England could easily have become a Danish possession again, but the Danes lost to the Anglo-Saxons and then the Anglo-Saxons to the Normans.
Some surnames such as 'Johnson' can be from either Anglo-Saxons or Scandinavians, although Anglo-Saxons seem to have used the suffix '-son' a lot less.

From my knowledge English commoners did not start using surnames until about 1500's or so, well after the Danish era, while for royals its of course different:


In England, the introduction of family names is generally attributed to the Normans and the Domesday Book of 1086. Documents indicate that surnames were first adopted among the feudal nobility and gentry, and only slowly spread to the other parts of society.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name#History


Aren't you forgetting someone? ;)

We still use them here, but much less then you guys... lucky for our immigrants since the middle ages, as they usually adopted surnames when they came as to seem more Norwegian, my great grandfather also did this as was common when moving to a new place, as to seem connected to the new village rather then to some far way village placename..

[Graham]

Gunn is a Norse name for sure. comes from the old Norse name Gunni :) But then that's not in Ireland.

[Útrám]

In Shetland you only have to go back a couple of centuries & surnames weren't as relevant.. Like William Robertson had a son called Williamson..and so on. The Scots names are the easiest to track.

For example a part of family tree..

http://imageshack.us/a/img138/3482/shetland.jpg

Now we're the only ones who carry this tradition and IMO we should annul this archaic tradition. It can obscure the family linage, secondly the first name of the father is trivial when compared to a family's name, and thirdly these names are less memorable(how many Jónsson(s) are there?)

[Graham]

Now we're the only ones who carry this tradition and IMO we should annul this archaic tradition. It can obscure the family linage, secondly the first name of the father is trivial when compared to a family's name, and thirdly these names are less memorable(how many Jónsson(s) are there?)

None.. That's all the names from my Great Gran done on this handy website, didn't have to do one thing. :D

http://www.bayanne.info/Shetland/pedigree.php?personID=I44770&tree=bayanne_1&parentset=0&display=compact&generations=6

[Albion]

It's interesting reading the Domesday book. In areas outside the core Danelaw area it seems typical Old England as you would expect, with some Norman names too. But then as soon as you get into the heart of the Danelaw, you'd be forgiven for thinking you were in Denmark itself, judging by the majority of the place-names and personal names. It's a really stark contrast.

Yeah. Even looking at a modern map of Cumbria is weird though, the placenames are just odd and a lot are unlike the rest of England. There's a clear east / west division - for example you don't get '-thorpe' or '-by' placenames in the west. Then again there are differences between the South and the rest of the country, you don't really see '-stow' beyond Southern England.


From my knowledge English commoners did not start using surnames until about 1500's or so, well after the Danish era, while for royals its of course different:

That's when they became almost universally adopted, although they began to be adopted after the Norman conquest and most surnames date back to the decades immediately following it.

[Jackson]

Yeah. Even looking at a modern map of Cumbria is weird though, the placenames are just odd and a lot are unlike the rest of England. There's a clear east / west division - for example you don't get '-thorpe' or '-by' placenames in the west. Then again there are differences between the South and the rest of the country, you don't really see '-stow' beyond Southern England.



That's when they became almost universally adopted, although they began to be adopted after the Norman conquest and most surnames date back to the decades immediately following it.

Don't have my copy of Domesday with me, but will look for some specifics when i get back to university.

[Útrám]

None.. That's all the names from my Great Gran done on this handy website, didn't have to do one thing. :D

http://www.bayanne.info/Shetland/pedigree.php?personID=I44770&tree=bayanne_1&parentset=0&display=compact&generations=6

I meant us :) Iceland has somehow supernaturally managed to have more Jónsson(s) than actual citizens.

To continue this patrynomic naming custom just because it always was there is nothing but an argumentum ad antiquitatem, an appeal to antiquity. We do have surnames, which sound much more beautiful imo, Norðfjörð, Norðdal, Skagfjörð, Trausti, Kjarval.

[Jackson]

I meant us :) Iceland has somehow supernaturally managed to have more Jónsson(s) than actual citizens.

To continue this patrynomic naming custom just because it always was there is nothing but an argumentum ad antiquitatem, an appeal to antiquity. We do have surnames, which sound much more beautiful imo, Norðfjörð, Norðdal, Skagfjörð, Trausti, Kjarval.

I imagine trying to do any sort of genaeology is a nightmare in Iceland?

[Útrám]

I imagine trying to do any sort of genaeology is a nightmare in Iceland?

No, that's actually rather well-documented. I mean, how hard can it be to follow the lineage of eight people? :icon_wink:

[Daco Celtic]

The Vikings founded many coastal Irish towns. They had a bigger impact on Ireland than most people think.

[Dacul]

The Vikings founded many coastal Irish towns. They had a bigger impact on Ireland than most people think.

It seems they were Norwegian Vikings, that it seems to have left Norway and were allowed to settle in Ireland.
From the genetic point of view, is clear that average Irish got 20% Norway DNA,or even more.
From a cultural point of view, I do not know, I suppose Norway vikings had some influences at the Irish Keltic ethnicity.
From a cultural point of view, it seems that Irish Kelts and British Kelts had a much stronger influence in the creation of Icelandic and modern Norwegian nations than the Vikings had in Britain.
It is the better and stronger ethnicity that assimilates the inferior ethnicity.
The inferior and physically weaker ethnicity were the Norwegian Vikings.

See for example that Norway drinks a lot of cow milk compared to Sweden and Denmark - that is a very clear influence from Irish Kelts.
Iceland eats lots of sheep milk products, that being another influence from British and Irish Kelts, in Icelanders.

[Dacul]

The original link is not working anymore, so I took the liberty to contribute in this thread:
https://www.aletterfromireland.com/irish-viking-surname/
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/irish-roots-viking-surnames-1.2392951

[Grace O'Malley]

It seems they were Norwegian Vikings, that it seems to have left Norway and were allowed to settle in Ireland.
From the genetic point of view, is clear that average Irish got 20% Norway DNA,or even more.
From a cultural point of view, I do not know, I suppose Norway vikings had some influences at the Irish Keltic ethnicity.
From a cultural point of view, it seems that Irish Kelts and British Kelts had a much stronger influence in the creation of Icelandic and modern Norwegian nations than the Vikings had in Britain.
It is the better and stronger ethnicity that assimilates the inferior ethnicity.
The inferior and physically weaker ethnicity were the Norwegian Vikings.

See for example that Norway drinks a lot of cow milk compared to Sweden and Denmark - that is a very clear influence from Irish Kelts.
Iceland eats lots of sheep milk products, that being another influence from British and Irish Kelts, in Icelanders.

I don't know if you can make a blanket statement like that. The Vikings started all of Ireland major towns so that's a pretty big influence and they also introduced the first coins into Ireland. They also introduced rabbits into Ireland and nautical terms into the Irish language. They also expanded Ireland's trading routes to many other countries and as far away as Turkey. Regarding Iceland there was some influence on the names and also the Icelandic literary tradition was apparently influenced by the Irish.

I'm sure there are more influences if this was researched further.

[Dacul]

I don't know if you can make a blanket statement like that. The Vikings started all of Ireland major towns so that's a pretty big influence and they also introduced the first coins into Ireland. They also introduced rabbits into Ireland and nautical terms into the Irish language. They also expanded Ireland's trading routes to many other countries and as far away as Turkey. Regarding Iceland there was some influence on the names and also apparently the Icelandic literary tradition was apparently influenced by the Irish.

I'm sure there are more influences if this was researched further.
Is weird how Norway got 40% of mtDNA of British and Irish origins and in SW Norway, R1B-L21 peaks.
I also noticed that Irish are quite a maritime nation, now, so they took this influence from Norwegian Vikings.

Iceland speaks some North Germanic language, but they rather look Irish/Scottish Kelts.
I know in Scotland there are traditions with males accumulating physical strength, no idea about Ireland.
Like lifting very heavy stones and so on.
I understand Ireland also got such traditions, but I have not done so much research about this:
http://www.playingpasts.co.uk/articles/general/memory-and-feats-of-strength-in-rural-ireland%E2%80%8B/
These traditions with males becoming physically strong are also seen in Iceland and fewer in Norway.

Vikings were actually relying a lot on weapons and learning combat tactics and fighting very as a team and attacking by surprise.

[Grace O'Malley]

Is weird how Norway got 40% of mtDNA of British and Irish origins and in SW Norway, R1B-L21 peaks.
I also noticed that Irish are quite a maritime nation, now, so they took this influence from Norwegian Vikings.

Iceland speaks some North Germanic language, but they rather look Irish/Scottish Kelts.
I know in Scotland there are traditions with males accumulating physical strength, no idea about Ireland.
Like lifting very heavy stones and so on.
I understand Ireland also got such traditions, but I have not done so much research about this:
http://www.playingpasts.co.uk/articles/general/memory-and-feats-of-strength-in-rural-ireland%E2%80%8B/
These traditions with males becoming physically strong are also seen in Iceland and fewer in Norway.

Vikings were actually relying a lot on weapons and learning combat tactics and fighting very as a team and attacking by surprise.

The Irish were sailing before any Vikings. Irish monks were even in Iceland before the Vikings arrived and St Brendan, the Navigator, supposedly reached North America. The Irish were raiders and pirates themselves and often raided Britain and settled in a lot of areas of Britain with the best known Irish expansion being Dal Riada.

Vikings usually struck places that were politically fractured and the Irish were often fighting among themselves so it was an ideal place for the Vikings to make inroads into. They also used instability in England as well to gain a foothold. They were beaten when people got their act together like Brian Boru and the Battle of Clontarf.

[Daco Celtic]

I'm always baffled on these kind of forums as blond hair is supposed to be so rare in Ireland. I'm Irish and there are quite a few blonds in my family. I don't think blond hair is as rare in Ireland as it is made out to be. I don't know where people get their information from. Ireland has all the range of hair colours.

Many people expect the Conan O'Brien look for Irish people but I think I've actually seen more blonde Irish than redheads. My mom and some of her siblings have blonde hair and blue eyes but none of them have freckles or red hair. I think they could easily be stereotyped as Scandinavian. I don't think my family's Irish surnames have Norse roots but I'll recheck the family tree.

[Peterski]

Is weird how Norway got 40% of mtDNA of British and Irish origins and in SW Norway, R1B-L21 peaks.
I also noticed that Irish are quite a maritime nation, now, so they took this influence from Norwegian Vikings.

Yes Norway has some real/actual British admixture.

I don't think you can argue against overwhelming evidence that R1b-L21 migrated from Britain to Norway, not the other way around. All of the oldest known samples of L21 in ancient DNA known to date (well: I compiled this list a year ago, so maybe there are some new now) are from the British Isles.

Oldest ancient R1b-L21 samples (as of mid-2018):

I2457, Amesbury, England, 2480–2031 BC
I2565, Amesbury, England, 2470-2140 BC
I2447, Yarnton, England, 2400–2040 BC
I2453, West Deeping, England, 2289–2041 BC
I2568, Dryburn Bridge, Scotland, 2287–2039 BC
I2452, Willington, England, 2277–1920 BC
I3256, Cambridge, England, 2204–2029 BC
I2445, Yarnton, England, 2137–1930 BC
Rathlin1, Rathlin Island, Ireland, 2026–1885 BC
Rathlin2, Rathlin Island, Ireland, 2024–1741 BC
Rathlin3, Rathlin Island, Ireland, 1736–1534 BC
I3082, Sixpenny Handley, England, 1500–1390 BC
I2653, Longniddry, Scotland, 1500–1300 BC
HI1, Hinxton, England, 170 BC - 80 AD
HI2, Hinxton, England, 160 BC - 26 AD
6DRIF-18, York, England, 100-400 AD
6DRIF-21, York, England, 100-400 AD

^^^ Compared to modern distribution (according to Eupedia at least):

https://i.imgur.com/YKvmUoV.png

Show me ancient L21 samples from Bronze Age Norway, and I will agree that some R1b-L21 could actually be native to Norway.

[Grace O'Malley]

Many people expect the Conan O'Brien look for Irish people but I think I've actually seen more blonde Irish than redheads. My mom and some of her siblings have blonde hair (now gray in some cases) and blue eyes but none of them have freckles or red hair. I think they could easily be stereotyped as Scandinavian.

Red hair is always the most rare even in places like Ireland and Scotland although it always has a visibility there. Blond hair is relatively common as you can see looking through this Google search https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=qhHaXLTLH5fjz7sP-pK4mAU&q=gaa+ireland+camogie&oq=gaa+ireland+camogie&gs_l=img.3..35i39.34106.35830..36090...0.0..0.428. 2433.2-4j2j2......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i30j0i8i30j0i24.BPyQk7uxVY4#imgrc=aJTJe 6XNmHSdVM:

I've even been accused of picking Irish that don't look like Irish on here by a couple of people. :) I've always found that bizarre. Anyway people now know that Irish are primarily a Bell Beaker population and are similar to their neighbours.

From the link above the Irish men's hockey team.

https://www.pledgesports.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/IMG_8255-1024x682.jpg

[Bellbeaking]

https://i.imgur.com/rCGDIhh.png

u20 rugger

[billErobreren]

Yup, there's a fair amount of them; MacIvor, McLeod, MacNeil among others will be some from the same roots you'll also find in the Hebrides. If you look at Donegal vs Waterford you'll see a greater amount of blonde hair in the latter.

[Daco Celtic]

Red hair is always the most rare even in places like Ireland and Scotland although it always has a visibility there. Blond hair is relatively common as you can see looking through this Google search https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=qhHaXLTLH5fjz7sP-pK4mAU&q=gaa+ireland+camogie&oq=gaa+ireland+camogie&gs_l=img.3..35i39.34106.35830..36090...0.0..0.428. 2433.2-4j2j2......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i30j0i8i30j0i24.BPyQk7uxVY4#imgrc=aJTJe 6XNmHSdVM:

I've even been accused of picking Irish that don't look like Irish on here by a couple of people. :) I've always found that bizarre. Anyway people now know that Irish are primarily a Bell Beaker population and are similar to their neighbours.

From the link above the Irish men's hockey team.

https://www.pledgesports.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/IMG_8255-1024x682.jpg

I think that photo is a good composite of the typical Irish look(s). I've only been to Ireland once but I saw a lot of people with that appearance when I was there. The dude in the front-center is the most stereotypically Irish looking person I've ever seen :p

[billErobreren]

Gunn is a Norse name for sure. comes from the old Norse name Gunni :) But then that's not in Ireland.

Somhairle or Somerled's another one(Sumarlið) but again, I've marked that to be a more Scottish thing.

[Smaug]

How about O’Vikingson?

[Grace O'Malley]

Yup, there's a fair amount of them; MacIvor, McLeod, MacNeil among others will be some from the same roots you'll also find in the Hebrides. If you look at Donegal vs Waterford you'll see a greater amount of blonde hair in the latter.

Some of them are Gallowglass names. Ivar though did start a dynasty in Ireland called the Uí Ímair or the House of Ivar.


ikings plagued the coasts of Ireland and Britain in the 790s AD. Over time, their raids became more intense and by the mid 9th century, Vikings had established a number of settlements in Ireland and Britain and had become heavily involved with local politics. A particularly successful Viking leader named à varr campaigned on both sides of the Irish Sea in the 860s. His descendants dominated the major seaports of Ireland and challenged the power of kings in Britain during the late 9th and 10th centuries. In 1014, the battle of Clontarf marked a famous stage in the decline of Viking power in Ireland while the conquest of England in 1013 by the Danish king Sveinn Forkbeard marked a watershed in the history of Vikings in Britain. The descendants of à varr continued to play a significant role in the history of Dublin and the Hebrides until the 12th century, but they did not threaten to overwhelm the major kingships of Britain or Ireland in this later period as they had done before. This book provides a political analysis of the deeds of à varr's family, from their first appearance in Insular records down to the year 1014. Such an account is necessary in light of the flurry of new work that has been done in other areas of Viking Studies. Recent theoretical approaches to the subject have raised many interesting questions regarding identity, material culture, and structures of authority. Archaeological finds and excavations have also offered potentially radical insights into Viking settlement and society. In line with these developments, Clare Downham provides a reconsideration of events based on contemporary written accounts.

https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Viking_Kings_of_Britain_and_Ireland.html?id=j-sWAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_%C3%8Dmair

[billErobreren]

Some of them are Gallowglass names. Ivar though did start a dynasty in Ireland called the Uí Ímair or the House of Ivar.



https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Viking_Kings_of_Britain_and_Ireland.html?id=j-sWAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_%C3%8Dmair

Oh yes the Southern Kingdom of the Isles; Suðreyjar. Including Dublin and the Isle of Man. They reckon that Ivarr was the one they knew as the boneless but I'm not sure. I'd like to believe it was.

[Daco Celtic]

https://youtu.be/Q_FQ9tzN2kk

I have to get this map.

[Grace O'Malley]

Interesting that on the program Britain's Viking Graveyards an older man and his son were buried together. They think this was Olaf of Dublin and his son. Unfortunately they didn't go much into the dna side of things which would have been interesting. Olaf's son would have had an Irish mother. I hope they release more dna on this in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_the_White

[billErobreren]

Interesting that on the program Britain's Viking Graveyards an older man and his son were buried together. They think this was Olaf of Dublin and his son. Unfortunately they didn't go much into the dna side of things which would have been interesting. Olaf's son would have had an Irish mother. I hope they release more dna on this in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_the_White

I think they called him Amlaib or something close to it in Irish. I've heard it said that he was distantly to Harald I of Norway and belonged to the same dynasty. I reckon he belonged to the Ivaring dynasty as most of the Hibredian kings at the time did. Many of that dynasty would end up in chanrge of Jorvik also but, not for too long, there was so much intrigue going on there, that no family ever ended up in charge over there for more than 2 generations.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think they called him Amlaib or something close to it in Irish. I've heard it said that he was distantly to Harald I of Norway and belonged to the same dynasty. I reckon he belonged to the Ivaring dynasty as most of the Hibredian kings at the time did. Many of that dynasty would end up in chanrge of Jorvik also but, not for too long, there was so much intrigue going on there, that no family ever ended up in charge over there for more than 2 generations.

Yes it was a very unstable time in history. The problem with the Irish was that they would never get together to form a united front so they were ripe for any opportunistic outsiders coming in which is what happened with the Vikings, Normans etc. Brian Boru became High King but he killed a lot of his rivals but once he was killed no one was powerful enough to retain control of all of Ireland. They allowed the Vikings to stay because with their trading and towns they brought in wealth.

[Daco Celtic]

Yes it was a very unstable time in history. The problem with the Irish was that they would never get together to form a united front so they were ripe for any opportunistic outsiders coming in which is what happened with the Vikings, Normans etc. Brian Boru became High King but he killed a lot of his rivals but once he was killed no one was powerful enough to retain control of all of Ireland. They allowed the Vikings to stay because with their trading and towns they brought in wealth.

Typical Vikings. Always going after the weakest link. You have to give them credit though. They were opportunistic and they developed quite a few Irish towns into prosperous trading posts.

[billErobreren]

Yes it was a very unstable time in history. The problem with the Irish was that they would never get together to form a united front so they were ripe for any opportunistic outsiders coming in which is what happened with the Vikings, Normans etc. Brian Boru became High King but he killed a lot of his rivals but once he was killed no one was powerful enough to retain control of all of Ireland. They allowed the Vikings to stay because with their trading and towns they brought in wealth.

Well a least the petty kings of Suðreyjar had a pretty stable thing going on, the spawn of Ivar would be ruling there in the Hebrides well after the Norman conquest(although by then Dublin was under Irish rule and not theirs anymore) and Jorvik, went back to English rule. The Lowlands of Scotland which were part of Northumbria before the Viking age had already sworn fealty to the Scottish crown since they had lost about two thirds of their kingdom to the Danes.

[Grace O'Malley]

Typical Vikings. Always going after the weakest link. You have to give them credit though. They were opportunistic and they development quite a few Irish towns into prosperous trading posts.

Vikings didn't make much inroads into places like Spain because they were heavily rebuffed but I guess the further you are away from your homeland and bases it makes it more difficult to get reinforcements and also find a safe haven. They only had settlements in a few places and raided the coasts of Europe. Not sure how accurate this map is but it is the best I could find.

http://www.bluebird-electric.net/navigation/navigation_pictures/Viking_Expansion_Map_Colour_Coded.gif

[Daco Celtic]

Vikings didn't make much inroads into places like Spain because they were heavily rebuffed but I guess the further you are away from your homeland and bases it makes it more difficult to get reinforcements and also find a safe haven. They only had settlements in a few places and raided the coasts of Europe. Not sure how accurate this map is but it is the best I could find.

http://www.bluebird-electric.net/navigation/navigation_pictures/Viking_Expansion_Map_Colour_Coded.gif

Cool map. They did get around. It shows the Norman conquest of Sicily under Roger I which is sort of quasi-Viking conquest I guess.