Urumchi: The Ancient Nordic Mummies of China

[Anglojew]

Very Surprisingly there doesn't seem to be a thread about this here.

The Mummies of Ürümchi are well preserved bodies of Indo-Europeans of the Nordid (and possibly Kelto-Nordid) variety discovered in China and dating from 4,000 years ago. This disproved Chinese theories about their cultural development being in isolation, and shows that not only was there presumably trade between ancient peoples, but also that white people inhabited parts of China in ancient times. This adds further proof to the myths that ancient Chinese Emporers were white eg the Chinese name for the lower classes means "Black Hair" which implies the upper classes didn't have black hair;

"The Tarim mummies are a group of mummies discovered in the Tarim Basin in present-day Xinjiang, China, which date from 1900 BCE to 200 CE. Some of the mummies are frequently associated with the presence of the Indo-European Tocharians in the Tarim Basin, although the evidence is not totally conclusive. Victor H. Mair's team made the conclusion that the mummies are basically Europid and likely speakers of an Indo-European language."

The Caucasian, often heavily, tattooed mummies are of very tall blonde and red headed individuals with men up to 6'6" in height and would have been imposing figures in ancient times. They are dressed in very typical Indo-European tartan designs. They often have Marijuana with them. This has many implications for the introduction of culture to China by outsiders (or the other way) as Mallory and Mair note that: "Prior to c. 2000 BC, finds of metal artifacts in China are exceedingly few".

They were found here;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/China_Xinjiang_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi.svg/250px-China_Xinjiang_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi.svg.png

So probably have links to the Tocharians who were another Caucasian people living in the same area until they were wiped out or merged with the Uighur peoples.

Tocharians lived here;

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/IE_images/tocharian.jpg

Ancient depictions of them shows Caucasians with blue eyes and red hair (on left);

http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/miscimages/Tocharians-in-China.JPG

Photos of the Mummies;

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2366/2199836329_a4b700c68d.jpg

http://ristorantemystica.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/goldilocks1.jpg?w=450&h=248

http://whirledview.typepad.com/whirledview/images/2007/03/15/mummy.jpg

Interestingly Genghiz Khan was discribed as red-headed with light eyes.

[Han Cholo]

The tocharians were not Celtic nor Germanic:


Tocharian or Tokharian (/təˈkɛəriən/ or /təˈkɑriən/) is an extinct branch of the Indo-European language family, formerly spoken in oases on the northern edge of the Tarim Basin (now part of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of China) by the Tocharians. Two branches of Tocharian are known from documents dating from the 3rd to 9th centuries AD:

Tocharian A (Agnean or East Tocharian; natively ārśi) of Qarašähär (ancient Agni, Chinese Yanqi) and Turpan (ancient Turfan and Xočo); and
Tocharian B (Kuchean or West Tocharian) of Kucha and Tocharian A sites.

Prakrit documents from 3rd century Kroran on the southeast edge of the Tarim Basin contain loanwords and names that appear to come from another variety of Tocharian, dubbed Tocharian C.[1] All these languages became extinct after Uyghur tribes expanded into the area.

They were an independent branch of IE.

[Anglojew]

The tocharians were not Celtic nor Germanic:



They were an independent branch of IE.

Yes but I think they migrated at about the same time as Celts also broke away from the Indo-European main group (eg in the first wave) thus they share many characteristics with Celts.

[Han Cholo]

Yes but I think they migrated at about the same time as Celts also broke away from the Indo-European main group (eg in the first wave) thus they share many characteristics with Celts.

I would think there were more similarities with Indo-Iranians, considering the geographical closeness.

[Anglojew]

I would think there were more similarities with Indo-Iranians, considering the geographical closeness.

There's some speculation that they're related to Iranians but what's clear is they're Indo-Europeans.

[Illustribus]

I'm highly interested in this tribe.

I have a book about their fabric; "The Mummies of Urumchi"
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zZrwjP7IL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Their fabric has a high level of similarity to Celtic tartan. That was a big part of the book.

The beauty of loulan is is really beautiful for a 4000 year old mummy. It's too bad but I don't think she was preserved very well and her body has become much darker.
http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy07.jpg

They actually wore hats EXACTLY like the witch hat kids wear for Halloween. If you watch a documentary on youtube about them they show the hats there- there are no pictures of those hats on the Internet (Mysterious Mummies of China (1998) Part 3 - I think that's the youtube video but im not sure) . I think they smoked lots of pot too.

To put this tribe into perspective; they found similar looking tribes in east russia near mongolia - but that doesn't get as much publicity b/c Russia is seen as less interesting (though it was far further north-east of the Tocharian tribes). I think there's a link between this tribe and the upper caste in India but I cannot remember how.

The book "Horse, Wheel, and Language", and "10,000 Year Explosion" talks about this indo-euroepan milk drinking, horse riding, tall people that spread out all over the place. I really like those books particularly "10,000 Year Explosion". (Also I saw a thread on Jewish intelligence- 10,000 year explosion has an amazing chapter on that very topic)

[Vesuvian Sky]

ahem....the Tarim Mummies are often suspected to be ancestral to the Tocharians:):


The Tocharians or Tokharians (/təˈkɛəriənz/ or /təˈkɑriənz/) were inhabitants of medieval oasis city-states on the northern edge of the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang, China). Their Tocharian languages (a branch of the Indo-European family) are known from manuscripts from the 6th to 8th centuries AD, after which they were supplanted by the Turkic languages of the Uyghur tribes.
Some scholars have linked the Tocharians with the Afanasevo culture of eastern Siberia (c. 3500–2500 BC), the Tarim mummies (c. 1800 BC) and the Yuezhi of Chinese records, most of whom migrated from southern Gansu to Bactria in the 2nd century BC and then later to northwest India where they founded the Kushan Empire.

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[Wild North]

:cool:

Interesting! So the Tocharians spoke an IE language. I´m not sure, they were also Buddhists (?).. And modern day historians are making a connection between them and the Uyghurs of today. Only that the Ughurs speak a non-IE Altaic language. But anyway, because of the occurance of blonds and blue eyed among the Uyghurs, it´s not impossible..

[Anglojew]

:cool:

Interesting! So the Tocharians spoke an IE language. I´m not sure, they were also Buddhists (?).. And modern day historians are making a connection between them and the Uyghurs of today. Only that the Ughurs speak a non-IE Altaic language. But anyway, because of the occurance of blonds and blue eyed among the Uyghurs, it´s not impossible..

Yes, you've summed it up well except I think the Tocharians also became Nestorian Christians.

[Hochmeister]

white people inhabited parts of China in ancient times.

Parts of Central Asia (Urumqi is CA too).

BTW, this map explains everything:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png

Tajiks from Pamir (mountain settlements)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/13Pamiri1...jpg/800px-13Pamiri1...jpg

[Anglojew]

Parts of Central Asia (Urumqi is CA too).

BTW, this map explains everything:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png

Tajiks from Pamir (mountain settlements)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/13Pamiri1...jpg/800px-13Pamiri1...jpg

What I find weird is certain people (IM) arguing that those people aren't white when they're descendants of various Indo-European migrations with the same origin as those tribes that migrated to Europe. It's true many have intermarried with non-Whites but some have retained their original ethnicity especially in more isolated regions.

[Hochmeister]

arguing that those people aren't white

Do you mean Central Asians at all or just individual European looking persons?
Well, these people have non-white admixes too. Same as the Turks have. Are the Turks white? That is the question.

[RussiaPrussia]

actually there are also old greek tales from amazon women which really existed, the amazon women were ukrainians and russians who settled in kazakstan and in the same region in china. I saw some docu about it, once.

[Anglojew]

Do you mean Central Asians at all or just individual European looking persons?
Well, these people have non-white admixes too. Same as the Turks have. Are the Turks white? That is the question.

Hey tend to live south of Turkic inhabited lands eg in Persian lands.

[Proto-Shaman]

Actually these mummies were most likely Turkic Tochars/Tokhars/Tukars/Digors/Dügers, they had nothing to do with the so called speakers of Indo-European "Tocharian A+B".

[Vesuvian Sky]

Actually these mummies were most likely Turkic Tochars/Tokhars/Tukars/Digors/Dügers, they had nothing to do with the so called speakers of Indo-European "Tocharian A+B".

I am presently bored and would like to hear more of this theory/view point.:)

Could you expand on this and perhaps provide a source or two?:)

[Legion]

The Tarim basin is stolen Aryan land - Occupied by Türkic and Sino-Tibetan forces. Support our cause and bring these oppressors to justice, the voice of Tocharia will be heard! http://www.theapricity.com/forum/group.php?groupid=449

[Vesuvian Sky]

The Tarim basin is stolen Aryan land - Occupied by Türkic and Sino-Tibetan forces. Support our cause and bring these oppressors to justice, the voice of Tocharia will be heard! http://www.theapricity.com/forum/group.php?groupid=449

Joined!:thumb001:

[inactive_member]

Actually these mummies were most likely Turkic Tochars/Tokhars/Tukars/Digors/Dügers, they had nothing to do with the so called speakers of Indo-European "Tocharian A+B".

If they were Turkic, as many of Turkic were discovered throughout Altai and surrounding regions, westerners would not be interested in the discovery. The mummies are in western press for quite a while now. From what I gathered clothing preserved on mummies resembles that of early Celts. Plus mumies are Caucasoid with red hair which your Turkic ancestors 4,000 years ago were not.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Tocharian is an exonym. Allegedley their endonym would have been something more like this:


The two languages are known as Tocharian A (also East Tocharian or Turfanian, from the city of Turpan) and Tocharian B (also West Tocharian or Kuchean, from the city of Kucha).[1] The native name of the historical Tocharians of the 6th to 8th centuries was, according to J. P. Mallory, possibly kuśiññe "Kuchean" (Tocharian B), "of the kingdom of Kucha and Agni", and ārśi (Tocharian A); one of the Tocharian A texts has ārśi-käntwā, "In the tongue of Arsi" (ārśi is probably cognate to argenteus, i.e. "shining, brilliant"). According to Douglas Q. Adams, the Tocharians may have called themselves ākñi, meaning "borderers, marchers". The historian Bernard Sergent has called them Arśi-Kuči, recently revised to Agni-Kuči.[6]

[Proto-Shaman]

I am presently bored and would like to hear more of this theory/view point.:)

Could you expand on this and perhaps provide a source or two?:)
PSEUDO-TOKHARA (https://www.google.de/search?q=pseudo-Tokhara&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&client=firefox-beta&gws_rd=cr&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=de&tbo=u&tbm=bks&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp&ei=0noTUp3EJM-jhgeDpoHYAg):
The point is that "Tocharian A" is a philological euphemism for Turfanian, Arsi, or East Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan! "Tocharian B" is a philological euphemism for Kuchea or West Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan!

The euphemisms were invented in great drive for locating Indo-European Urheimat, to tie Indo-European languages to known horse nomadic conqueror tribes, and are recognized misnomers. Euphemisms do not belong to science, they are a tool of politicians. Tokhars - presumably "highlanders", from "tau" - mountain and "ar" - people, tribe; their known Türkic names are Tuhsi, Dügers, Digors; they became known from the work of Strabo. [...]. Both names, Tokhars and Hephthalites, are exploited by protagonists of Indo-European racial theory as a bridge for creation alternative history and introduction of Indo-Europeans in the history of Central Asia, and creation of scientific controversy and muddling up the history. Both tribes are known as members of the Eastern Hunnic state; the Chinese name Yuezhi is routinely used in the scientific and popular literature to refer to Tokhars. Very rarely the esteemed authors note that “Tokharian/Tocharian” is a misnomer for the Kuchean and Tarim languages, and even rarer are noted disclaimers that “Tokharian/Tocharian” has nothing to do with the language of Tokhars/Yuezhi/Θαγοθροι/Tuhsi/Düger/Duger/Digors.

Sources:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/FryeCentralAsianLinguistics.htm
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/21Tochars/HenningNameOfTokharLanguageEn.htm


If they were Turkic, as many of Turkic were discovered throughout Altai and surrounding regions, westerners would not be interested in the discovery. The mummies are in western press for quite a while now. From what I gathered clothing preserved on mummies resembles that of early Celts. Plus mumies are Caucasoid with red hair which your Turkic ancestors 4,000 years ago were not.
Fist of all 4,000 years ago Turks were completely Caucasoid. Even in 400-200 BC chinese sources described Turkic tribes with reddish/blond hair and green eyes.

[Vesuvian Sky]

The point is that "Tocharian A" is a philological euphemism for Turfanian, Arsi, or East Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan! "Tocharian B" is a philological euphemism for Kuchea or West Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan!

The euphemisms were invented in great drive for locating Indo-European Urheimat, to tie Indo-European languages to known horse nomadic conqueror tribes, and are recognized misnomers. Euphemisms do not belong to science, they are a tool of politicians. Tokhars - presumably "highlanders", from "tau" - mountain and "ar" - people, tribe; their known Türkic names are Tuhsi, Dügers, Digors; they became known from the work of Strabo. [...]. Both names, Tokhars and Hephthalites, are exploited by protagonists of Indo-European racial theory as a bridge for creation alternative history and introduction of Indo-Europeans in the history of Central Asia, and creation of scientific controversy and muddling up the history. Both tribes are known as members of the Eastern Hunnic state; the Chinese name Yuezhi is routinely used in the scientific and popular literature to refer to Tokhars. Very rarely the esteemed authors note that “Tokharian/Tocharian” is a misnomer for the Kuchean and Tarim languages, and even rarer are noted disclaimers that “Tokharian/Tocharian” has nothing to do with the language of Tokhars/Yuezhi/Θαγοθροι/Tuhsi/Düger/Duger/Digors.

Sources:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/FryeCentralAsianLinguistics.htm
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/21Tochars/HenningNameOfTokharLanguageEn.htm



It seems like much of this debate regards the question of what exactly did Proto-Turkic groups looks like:

Were they Mongoloid or Caucasoid?

Also, Do we lump Turkic in with the Altaic language family or treat it as its own unique language group?

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[Pallantides]

The Ancient Nordic Mummies of China

....
Wow I had no idea they were natives of Scandinavia, I guess they spoke a Nordic language as well.
Also what sort of Nordic cultural characteristics did they have?

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[Vesuvian Sky]

Facial reconstruction of "Loulan Beauty":

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/loubeaut2.jpg

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[Vesuvian Sky]

....or, were these people migrants from further west on the steppes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasevo_culture


The burials bear a remarkable resemblance to those much further west in the Yamna culture, the Sredny Stog culture, the Catacomb culture and the Poltavka culture, all of which are believed to be Indo-European in nature. In this interpretation, the Afanasevo culture is a strong candidate to represent the earliest cultural form of what was later called the Tocharians.[3] Kozshin (1970) has identified perforated horn pieces as riding bits, but this claim has been disputed.

The Afanasevo culture was succeeded by the Karasuk culture. Its relationship to the later, more westerly Andronovo culture is difficult to characterize.

[Folkvar]

No surprise at all.
Scratch a random advanced civilization in history and you'll find Caucasoid Aryans.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1360045#post1360045

[Vesuvian Sky]

Heres the real thing 3500bc roughly/ again similar nose to king of Norway? you be the judge.
http://granitestudio.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Loulan-Beauty.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Olav_V_of_Norway.jpg

Alot of this has to do with the concept of "Kurganid" physical type. Apparently Coon said Nordic is a major component of this type.

What would we class this lady as today? Purely Nordic? Or something else....

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[Pallantides]

Alot of this has to do with the concept of "Kurganid" physical type. Apparently Coon said Nordic is a major component of this type.

What would we class this lady as today? Purely Nordic? Or something else....

Why is Nordic hijacked in this manner, why is it not the same with Celtic, Slavic, Semitic, Finnic or Baltic and so on... it's infuriating.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Why is Nordic hijacked in this manner, why is it not the same with Celtic, Slavic, Semitic, Finnic or Baltic and so on... it's infuriating.

The most apparent answer: cause its a Bronze age mummy found in Asian. So naturally...

Alot of this goes back to a certain expedition that was held in Tibet back in the day:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938%E2%80%931939_German_expedition_to_Tibet

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[Pallantides]

The most apparent answer: cause its a Bronze age mummy found in Asian. So naturally...

Alot of this goes back to a certain expedition that was held in Tibet back in the day:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938%E2%80%931939_German_expedition_to_Tibet

Yeah I read about that in this book I have about Himmler and the Ahnenerbe.

....

Indo-European or Indo-Aryan, is a much better term for these people than Nordic.

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[archangel]

indo europeans=south asians origin accept it people,and i hardlt doubt these early indo euros exhibited light features.they probobably looked todays pakistanis or tajiks...

[Proto-Shaman]

...whereas R1a probably Z93, is common among Indo-Iranian.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults
I would rather say Turkic:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5404
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_Central_and_North_Asian_populat ions

The only reason that “Tajik” genes and Kyrgyz genes may be proximal is that a substantial portion of “Tajiks” carry Kyrgyz genes of the pre-Stalinist local population.[1 (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/FauxDKGeneticLinkOfVikingEn.htm)]

[Sky earth]

I would rather say Turkic:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5404
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_Central_and_North_Asian_populat ions

The only reason that “Tajik” genes and Kyrgyz genes may be proximal is that a substantial portion of “Tajiks” carry Kyrgyz genes of the pre-Stalinist local population.[1 (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/FauxDKGeneticLinkOfVikingEn.htm)]


It's stupid to associate Haplogroups with Phenotypes. All the Turkic people in this chart are predominantly Mongoloid. Haplogroup R1a doesn't help them to look like Nordic people sorry. Tajiks and Kyrgyz are not so genetically related to each other regardless of wether both populations carry much R1a.

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[Proto-Shaman]

It's stupid to associate Haplogroups with Phenotypes. All the Turkic people in this chart are predominantly Mongoloid. Haplogroup R1a doesn't help them to look like Nordic people sorry. Tajiks and Kyrgyz are not so genetically related to each other regardless of wether both populations carry much R1a.
Don't talk shit, I just documented that R1a has the highest frequencies among Central Asian Turks, respectably among Turks from the Altai Plateau. What's your problem? Can't deal with this? May Pecheneg's post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1297840&postcount=278) will enlighten you...

R1a carrier Altai
http://i49.tinypic.com/2m3ixol.jpg

R1a carrier Indian
http://i50.tinypic.com/29vm5b6.jpg

R1a carrier Slav
http://i50.tinypic.com/15ocr4h.jpg

:lightbul:

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[Twistedmind]

R1a carrier Slav
http://i50.tinypic.com/15ocr4h.jpg

:lightbul:
:picard1::picard1::picard1::picard1:
:rotfl2

Do you know what R1a is?

Silesian, do you think it is even worth to discuss with such genius?

[Proto-Shaman]

:picard1::picard1::picard1::picard1:
:rotfl2

Do you know what R1a is?

Silesian, do you think it is even worth to discuss with such genius?
Serbian logic in a nutshell again? :fponder:

[Twistedmind]

Serbian logic in a nutshell again? :fponder:

Yep. Women do not have Y chromosomes for start. :D

[Vesuvian Sky]

Indo-European or Indo-Aryan, is a much better term for these people than Nordic.

Early Indo-European yes, Indo-Aryan only if they are linked to people of N. India.

If they are direct predecessors to Tocharians, Indo-European since it was a Kentum IE language.

If Saka, Scythians then 'Iranic'.

The 'racial' categorization is a whole 'nother thing...

[Proto-Shaman]

Yep. Women do not have Y chromosomes for start. :D
What a priceless bullshit :picard1:

Read again carefully:

"R1a carrier Slav" :D

Should we make a trip to elementary learnings? And don't derail the thread again... :picard1:

Rugevit double -->> :picard1::picard1:

[Twistedmind]

What a priceless bullshit :picard1:

Read again carefully:

"R1a carrier Slav" :D

Should we make a trip to elementary learnings? Don't derail again :picard1:

Woman cant be carrier of Y_Dna. :bored:

[Pallantides]

Maybe it's a transsexual:p

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[Proto-Shaman]

Woman cant be carrier of Y_Dna. :bored:
I can understand you feel upset sometimes, but in this case it has nothing to do with woman (xx) and men (xy). :coffee:

[Sky earth]

Don't talk shit, I just documented that R1a has the highest frequencies among Central Asian Turks, respectably among Turks from the Altai Plateau. What's your problem? Can't deal with this? May Pecheneg's post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1297840&postcount=278) will enlighten you...

R1a carrier Altai
http://i49.tinypic.com/2m3ixol.jpg

R1a carrier Indian
http://i50.tinypic.com/29vm5b6.jpg

R1a carrier Slav
http://i50.tinypic.com/15ocr4h.jpg

:lightbul:

Why are you so angry? I don't have problem with most turkic people being R1a. I just don't like pseudo historians and wannabe scientists like you who see a connection between cromagnids and Turanids.

[inactive_member]

The only reason that “Tajik” genes and Kyrgyz genes may be proximal is that a substantial portion of “Tajiks” carry Kyrgyz genes of the pre-Stalinist local population.[1 (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/FauxDKGeneticLinkOfVikingEn.htm)]

You are making fool of yourself. Kyrgyz people migrated from Eneseu region in 10-13 the century. Your brothern from Kyrgyzstan will confirm it. Tajiks have been living in the region and nothern Afganistant at least since Alexander conqureured them.

R1a haplogroup is inherited on paternal lineage.
R1a has many sublcades
R1a comes from a single chromosome, whereas full genome of a person is made up of 46 chromosomes, which comes from either parent.
A picture of woman is inappropriate.

Subclades in R1a
http://zelas.blog.bg/photos/104544/original/R1a-ch.jpg

[Folkvar]

Don't go down that path you will get into shit. Indo-Europeans is a better term but in a nut shell it gets even more interesting.

Indo-European = Aryan





Have you ever wondered why they don't release the ydna results of king Tut?

He was probably another Indo-European y-dna carrier.

[Proto-Shaman]

Why are you so angry? I don't have problem with most turkic people being R1a. I just don't like pseudo historians and wannabe scientists like you who see a connection between cromagnids and Turanids.
Actually Turanids are Cromagnids :bored: Do you want sources or examples?

You are making fool of yourself. Kyrgyz people migrated from Eneseu region in 10-13 the century. Your brothern from Kyrgyzstan will confirm it. Tajiks have been living in the region and nothern Afganistant at least since Alexander conqureured them.

R1a haplogroup is inherited on paternal lineage.
R1a has many sublcades
R1a comes from a single chromosome, whereas full genome of a person is made up of 46 chromosomes, which comes from either parent.
A picture of woman is inappropriate.

Subclades in R1a
http://zelas.blog.bg/photos/104544/original/R1a-ch.jpg
This is the source: http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/FauxDKGeneticLinkOfVikingEn.htm

You can check it there.

[Sky earth]

Actually Turanids are Cromagnids :bored: Do you want sources or examples?

This is the source: http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/FauxDKGeneticLinkOfVikingEn.htm

You can check it there.


No Turanids have two types:D

First: The Pamirid type who are brachycephalised Iranids with tiny mongoloid admixture. Most Turkmens and Tajiks belong to this subrace but also many Uzbeks and Uyghurs

Second: The Aralid type who are Pamirids but heavily mixed with Tungids. They show predominatly mongoloid features like Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. The Scyhtians bulit the Kurgan culture and they are Indo-European Iranics. I know that you believe that Scythians were Turkic. I also believe that some tribes could be of Turkic origin or mixed with Turkic people but the fact is that the Scythians are accepted as Iranic steppe nomads by most historians, scientists and linguistics.

[Proto-Shaman]

No Turanids have two types:D

First: The Pamirid type who are brachycephalised Iranids with tiny mongoloid admixture. Most Turkmens and Tajiks belong to this subrace but also many Uzbeks and Uyghurs

Second: The Aralid type who are Pamirids but heavily mixed with Tungids. They show predominatly mongoloid features like Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. ...
???===>:D

:picard1:

First of all, Turanids, Pamirids and Aralids are three different pairs of shoes of one upper class, called Mountain race belt:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5581

But of course Aralid and Pamirid can appear as mixed Turanid subvarieties:
a) H. s. eur. turanicus Aralid
b) H. s. eur. pamiriensis Pamirid

(see: Racial Scheme of German anthropologist Egon Freiherr von Eickstedt at Wikipedia (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egon_von_Eickstedt#Wirken))

Pamirid/Pamir-Fergana race was developed from intermixture of the two other Central Asian types: the Andronovo & Central Asian variant of Mediterranean.

(See: Pamirid race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamirid_race))

Generally the other, major component of the Turanian type, characterized by the Europoid Andronovo form, Lipták (https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/katalist/2011-December/025015.html) divided and renamed Cromagnoid-C, Cromagnoid-C+Turanid, and Pamiro-Turanid.
(source: The Turks: Early ages, 2002 (http://books.google.de/books/about/The_Turks_Early_ages.html?id=HGBtAAAAMAAJ))

http://www.nhmus.hu/modules/Tar-Ember/kepek/liptak-k.jpg
Pál Lipták

[Sky earth]

???===>:D

:picard1:

First of all, Turanids, Pamirids and Aralids are three different pairs of shoes of one upper class, called Mountain race belt:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/album.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5581
But of course Aralid and Pamirid can appear as mixed Turanid subvarieties:
a) H. s. eur. turanicus Aralid
b) H. s. eur. pamiriensis Pamirid

(see: Racial Scheme of German anthropologist Egon Freiherr von Eickstedt at Wikipedia (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egon_von_Eickstedt#Wirken))

Pamirid/Pamir-Fergana race was developed from intermixture of the two other Central Asian types: the Andronovo & Central Asian variant of Mediterranean.

(See: Pamirid race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamirid_race))

Generally the other, major component of the Turanian type, characterized by the Europoid Andronovo form, Lipták (https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/katalist/2011-December/025015.html) divided and renamed Cromagnoid-C, Cromagnoid-C+Turanid, and Pamiro-Turanid.
(source: The Turks: Early ages, 2002 (http://books.google.de/books/about/The_Turks_Early_ages.html?id=HGBtAAAAMAAJ))

http://www.nhmus.hu/modules/Tar-Ember/kepek/liptak-k.jpg
Pál Lipták


Doesn't proove anything. I believe in genetics and not in subraces. And why is it called Pamirid? The present day Pamiris are Iranic people and have nothing to the with the Turkic peoples

[Proto-Shaman]

Doesn't proove anything. I believe in genetics and not in subraces. And why is it called Pamirid? The present day Pamiris are Iranic people and have nothing to the with the Turkic peoples
So you believe in genetics but not subraces?

I just want to let you know that this statement is a contradiction in itself. And btw the classification of those subraces are defined by anthropological studies. I just showed you the simple anthropological facts. :bored:

Pamirid ≠ Pamiri :picard1:

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C type, at Murgab (Pamir, Tajikistan). A lot of Kyrgyz people lives outside Kyrgystan:
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1215/1338094558_3a2a9fc463_o.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid type, in Rangkul, near China:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4141/4875103258_01d6b9fb5e_o.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C and Cromagnoid-C+Turanid mix, Murghab, Tadjikistan:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8299/7772395860_0cb4bd90b8_o.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C, Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Tungid mix in the Pamir mountains, Tajikistan:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4073/4927421558_20754a4bc1_o.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C, Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Tungid mix in Murgab, a city in the middle of the Pamir, Tajikistan:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4138/4926513959_e0816ca309_o.jpg

Kyrgyz man of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Pamiro-Turanid mix, at Murghab bazaar:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5249/5285441273_a580ca5ee1_b.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Pamiro-Turanid mix, from Kyrgyzstan:
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/154468_575903402423486_369846895_n.jpg

A Kazakh of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Tungid mix, from Western Mongolia:
http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/65188_575896545757505_2124331521_n.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Pamiro-Turanid mix, from Kyrgyzstan:
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/58639_575903442423482_1708280013_n.jpg

Kyrgyz of Pamiro-Turanid type, in the Pamir mountains:
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/400033_575904242423402_1106805540_n.jpg

Kyrgyz man of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid type, Murghab, Tajikistan:
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6047/6287790045_240d451e2a_o.jpg

The highest ratio of Andronovo-Pre-Scythian dna markers as well as Sarmatian-Alan cultural elements can be found among Karagash Tatars and Bashkirs in the Volga Basin (especially in South (http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Bashkirs_in_Bashkortostan_%2 8census_2002%29.svg&filetimestamp=20101023080110) Bashkortostan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkortostan), in Chkalov (http://www.tiptopglobe.com/city?n=Chkalov&p=550210#lat=46.52863&lon=47.02148&zoom=5), Magnitogorsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitogorsk) und Tscheljabinsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk)) and Andronovo-typed Kazakhs from Kazakhstan. In short -> the Kipchak and Scythian dna markers and their cultural elements are nearly similar.

Sources:
Brünn. Moravské muzeum Oddĕleni pro diluvium "Anthropos", Anthropologie, Vol. 16-17, Moravské muzeum, Ustav anthropos., 1978, p.76 (http://books.google.de/books?id=YY1WAAAAMAAJ)

Академия наук СССР, Руссиан С.Ф.С.Р. Народный комиссариат просвещения, Институт этнографии имени Н.Н. Миклухо-Маклая, Советская этнография , Vol. 1986, Изд-во Академии наук СССР, 1970, p.166 (http://books.google.de/books?id=4lxgAAAAIAAJ)

Институт истории, языка и литературы (Академия наук СССР. Башкирский научный центр), Васильев, С.М, Очерки по истории Башкирской АССР., Башкирское книжное изд-во, 1956, p.11 (http://books.google.de/books?id=6OvUAAAAMAAJ)

Институт археологии (Академия наук СССР), Древности Башкирии: Сборник статей, Наука, 1970, p.809 (http://books.google.de/books?id=F5sIAAAAMAAJ)

[Hoca]

Interesting. Probably there is more which the Chinese government tries to cover-up.

[Sky earth]

So you believe in genetics but not subraces?

I just want to let you know that this statement is a contradiction in itself. And btw the classification of those subraces are defined by anthropological studies. I just showed you the simple anthropological facts. :bored:

Pamirid ≠ Pamiri :picard1:

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C type, at Murgab (Pamir, Tajikistan). A lot of Kyrgyz people lives outside Kyrgystan:
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1215/1338094558_3a2a9fc463_o.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid type, in Rangkul, near China:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4141/4875103258_01d6b9fb5e_o.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C and Cromagnoid-C+Turanid mix, Murghab, Tadjikistan:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8299/7772395860_0cb4bd90b8_o.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C, Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Tungid mix in the Pamir mountains, Tajikistan:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4073/4927421558_20754a4bc1_o.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C, Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Tungid mix in Murgab, a city in the middle of the Pamir, Tajikistan:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4138/4926513959_e0816ca309_o.jpg

Kyrgyz man of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Pamiro-Turanid mix, at Murghab bazaar:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5249/5285441273_a580ca5ee1_b.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Pamiro-Turanid mix, from Kyrgyzstan:
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/154468_575903402423486_369846895_n.jpg

A Kazakh of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Tungid mix, from Western Mongolia:
http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/65188_575896545757505_2124331521_n.jpg

Kyrgyz of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid and Pamiro-Turanid mix, from Kyrgyzstan:
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/58639_575903442423482_1708280013_n.jpg

Kyrgyz of Pamiro-Turanid type, in the Pamir mountains:
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/400033_575904242423402_1106805540_n.jpg

Kyrgyz man of Cromagnoid-C+Turanid type, Murghab, Tajikistan:
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6047/6287790045_240d451e2a_o.jpg

The highest ratio of Andronovo-Pre-Scythian dna markers as well as Sarmatian-Alan cultural elements can be found among Karagash Tatars and Bashkirs in the Volga Basin (especially in South (http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Bashkirs_in_Bashkortostan_%2 8census_2002%29.svg&filetimestamp=20101023080110) Bashkortostan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkortostan), in Chkalov (http://www.tiptopglobe.com/city?n=Chkalov&p=550210#lat=46.52863&lon=47.02148&zoom=5), Magnitogorsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitogorsk) und Tscheljabinsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk)) and Andronovo-typed Kazakhs from Kazakhstan. In short -> the Kipchak and Scythian dna markers and their cultural elements are nearly similar.

Sources:
Brünn. Moravské muzeum Oddĕleni pro diluvium "Anthropos", Anthropologie, Vol. 16-17, Moravské muzeum, Ustav anthropos., 1978, p.76 (http://books.google.de/books?id=YY1WAAAAMAAJ)

Академия наук СССР, Руссиан С.Ф.С.Р. Народный комиссариат просвещения, Институт этнографии имени Н.Н. Миклухо-Маклая, Советская этнография , Vol. 1986, Изд-во Академии наук СССР, 1970, p.166 (http://books.google.de/books?id=4lxgAAAAIAAJ)

Институт истории, языка и литературы (Академия наук СССР. Башкирский научный центр), Васильев, С.М, Очерки по истории Башкирской АССР., Башкирское книжное изд-во, 1956, p.11 (http://books.google.de/books?id=6OvUAAAAMAAJ)

Институт археологии (Академия наук СССР), Древности Башкирии: Сборник статей, Наука, 1970, p.809 (http://books.google.de/books?id=F5sIAAAAMAAJ)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5467
what a shame... :laugh:


Wow! I have never seen more cherry picking to proove how Nordic an Ethnic group is. Doesn't change the fact that the average Kyrgyz looks closer to Japanese people than to Scandinavians. There is no pure Alpinid, Iranid, Pamirid, Tungid or Mediterranid. We are all mixed and those subraces were just an outdated theory by some Nazis. In the end all Humans in this world are related to each other. They are different phenotypes yes but Races are outdated. Humans are gentically too similar to each other which is why they shoudn't be separated in Races.

[Proto-Shaman]

Wow! I have never seen more cherry picking to proove how Nordic an Ethnic group is.
This is at least the 5th time you behave childish :clap2: I didn't really know where to begin, so I begin step by step... First of all, those pictures are not cherry picking, since these people are very common among the Kyrgyz due to their 27.4% Caucasian DNA (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/TurkicGenetics.htm) (inherited by their Yenisei Kyrgyz forebearers). I could show you much more pictures.. :rolleyes::D Btw. here is an interesting thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69337). It is worth reading :thumb001:

:taped-shut: 2ndly: Nordid ≠TURANID! Those are two different pair of shoes :writing_thinking:
The examples shown above are typical for Turanid phenotypes:
1. Cromagnoid-C type
2. Cromagnoid-C+Turanid type
3. Pamiro-Turanid type

I don't know how many times I have to repeat it. It seems you will 4ever remain in your deep dark hole of ignorance. What a pity :o


Doesn't change the fact that the average Kyrgyz looks closer to Japanese people than to Scandinavians.
Try to figure that out! I am really shocked from your ignorance :eek: :pout:

Autosomal DNA admixtures:
Kyrgyz: 33,7% Far Asian![1 (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/TurkicGenetics.htm)]
Japanese: 98.7% Far Asian![2 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwV mc#gid=0)]

AND BTW! The most closely SNP match to the Shetland population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland) are the Kyrgyz from Central Asia with an autosomal north european cluster (Fennoscandia & Baltikum) of ~23%. Compare the Tajiks, they have 19.3%, but they have more Caucasian look (especially due to their pred. Med. origin).
:writing_thinking:


There is no pure Alpinid, Iranid, Pamirid, Tungid or Mediterranid. We are all mixed and those subraces were just an outdated theory by some Nazis. In the end all Humans in this world are related to each other.
Wooow! What a heinous, uneducated statement :crazy: :eusa_doh: :shakefist For the first, Eickstedt was not a Nazi, he was one of the most authoritative and honoured anthropologists of the 20th c. and his works still enjoy great reputation in modern scientific circles.
:writing_thinking:

[ALL]

Autosomal DNA admixtures:
Kyrgyz: 33,7% Far Asian![1 (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/TurkicGenetics.htm)]
Japanese: 98.7% Far Asian![2 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwV mc#gid=0)]

AND BTW! The most closely SNP match to the Shetland population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland) are the Kyrgyz from Central Asia with an autosomal north european cluster (Fennoscandia & Baltikum) of ~23%. Compare the Tajiks, they have 19.3%, but they have more Caucasian look (especially due to their pred. Med. origin).


"Particular concentrations appear in Georgia (8%), the Orkney Islands (in Scotland), (7%) and amongst the Israeli Druze community (27%).

" The main occurrence of X in Asia discovered so far is in the Altay people in Southwestern Siberia[[River Irtysh?] and detailed examination[5] has shown that the Altaian sequences are all almost identical (haplogroup X2e),suggesting that they arrived in the area probably from the South Caucasus more recently than 5,000 BP."

"Shetland population are the Kyrgyz from Central Asia with an autosomal north "european cluster"

"suggest that haplogroup X was the part of the ancestral gene pool for Altaian populations"

This relative absence of haplogroup X2 in Asia

R1a+mtdna X2 found in Northern Scotland+Caucasus+ Altai[Kipchaks-were a tribal confederation which originally settled at the River Irtysh,with physical characteristics such as flat face and distinctly protruding nose.]=Non Mongol, non East Asian origin=non R1a non mtdna X

Look at Chärchän Man's picture in my avatar.

[Sky earth]

This is at least the 5th time you behave childish :clap2: I didn't really know where to begin, so I begin step by step... First of all, those pictures are not cherry picking, since these people are very common among the Kyrgyz due to their 27.4% Caucasian DNA (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/TurkicGenetics.htm) (inherited by their Yenisei Kyrgyz forebearers). I could show you much more pictures.. :rolleyes::D Btw. here is an interesting thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69337). It is worth reading :thumb001:

:taped-shut: 2ndly: Nordid ≠TURANID! Those are two different pair of shoes :writing_thinking:
The examples shown above are typical for Turanid phenotypes:
1. Cromagnoid-C type
2. Cromagnoid-C+Turanid type
3. Pamiro-Turanid type

I don't know how many times I have to repeat it. It seems you will 4ever remain in your deep dark hole of ignorance. What a pity :o


Try to figure that out! I am really shocked from your ignorance :eek: :pout:

Autosomal DNA admixtures:
Kyrgyz: 33,7% Far Asian![1 (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/TurkicGenetics.htm)]
Japanese: 98.7% Far Asian![2 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwV mc#gid=0)]

AND BTW! The most closely SNP match to the Shetland population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland) are the Kyrgyz from Central Asia with an autosomal north european cluster (Fennoscandia & Baltikum) of ~23%. Compare the Tajiks, they have 19.3%, but they have more Caucasian look (especially due to their pred. Med. origin).
:writing_thinking:


Wooow! What a heinous, uneducated statement :crazy: :eusa_doh: :shakefist For the first, Eickstedt was not a Nazi, he was one of the most authoritative and honoured anthropologists of the 20th c. and his works still enjoy great reputation in modern scientific circles.
:writing_thinking:


Please read my post again. I said that the average Kyrgyz looks closer to Japanese people than Scandinavians and not all Kyrgyz. Thank you for posting the far Asians component from the Kyrgyz but what about the Siberian Mongoloid component? Are you afraid to post this? You wrote too much but sadly it doesn't change the fact that the average Kyrgyz looks closer to Japanese than to scandinavians.

Eickstedt is dead and his theories are outdated. Oh and he worked for the Nazis, so he has much to do with them. At least this will be my last post for you. You can live in your pathetic dreamworld where Germanics and Turkic people are genetically, culturally and ethnically connected with each other and you can post the dumbest things ever to proove how Turanic Nordic people are I don't have a problem with it. Actually I'm even looking forward for it. Please create a Thread about Turanic Scots and Irish people. I want to laugh again

[Proto-Shaman]

1._________________________________________

Please read my post again. I said that the average Kyrgyz looks closer to Japanese people than Scandinavians and not all Kyrgyz. ... You wrote too much but sadly it doesn't change the fact that the average Kyrgyz looks closer to Japanese than to scandinavians.
:bored: Well...actually the average Turanid Scandinavians looks closer to Kyrgyz:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5592
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5597
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5596
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5590http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5588

I have nothing against my Turanian Japanese brothers and sisters, but this Japanese argument should be debunked by now, I think :D

Thank you for posting the far Asians component from the Kyrgyz but what about the Siberian Mongoloid component? Are you afraid to post this?
Well, actually when I would post the Siberian mongoloid component here, your Japanese theory would fail in a really bad way due to the fact that there is left a chance of 1.3%, since Japanese have 98.7% Far Asian components :D
Watch it up and read carefully again. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwV mc#gid=0) :rolleyes:
.........
......
....
..
............ and? What did you find out? Exactly 0.2% Siberian DNA component :thumb001:

.... and sorry, I did a mistake a post before... not general Kyrgyz, but Kyrgyz women are 27.4% Caucasian and 68.4% Mongoloid. (~33,7 Far Asian Components (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/TurkicGenetics.htm))
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/WorldHaplogroupsMaps/KyrgyzMT_DNA.gif

The degree of paternal Caucasian DNA should be muuuuch higher, I think respectively ~70% :D
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/KyrgyzY_DNA.gif

[Proto-Shaman]

2._________________________________________

Eickstedt is dead and his theories are outdated. Oh and he worked for the Nazis, so he has much to do with them.
:picard1:
First of all, he was NOT a Nazi. Is this so difficult to understand? Nuremberg Laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws) are outdated NOT Eickstedt. His classification system within Anthropology prevailed until the 1990s. Furthermore he was taken in to the "List of proscribed literature (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D0%B8%D0%B7% D1%8A%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D 0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D1%8B)" by the Soviet GDR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany) Regime. :bored: Furthermoreeee... in 1985 he was appreciated as one of the most important anthropologist of the 20th c. And NOW we are living in the 21st c. where anthropological studies are even much more refined, i.e. here (http://books.google.de/books/about/The_Turks_Early_ages.html?id=HGBtAAAAMAAJ), where another Hungarian anthropologist, named Pál Lipták (1914-2000), is cited in a famous up-to-date book series (2002), which is actually the most important source for western researchers in terms of Central Asian history.

At least this will be my last post for you.
I hope so.

You can live in your pathetic dreamworld where Germanics and Turkic people are genetically, culturally and ethnically connected with each other...
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1280933&postcount=169
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1291109&postcount=179
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1292087&postcount=180

Further questions? Ask Loki (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=2), evon (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=1390), or me (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=6764).

...and you can post the dumbest things ever to proove how Turanic Nordic people are I don't have a problem with it. Actually I'm even looking forward for it.
And here we go again :rolleyes: Nordid ≠TURANID! Those are two different pair of shoes :writing_thinking:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5584

IS THAT CLEAR NOW? :rolleyes::picard1:

Please create a Thread about Turanic Scots and Irish people. I want to laugh again.
Turanic Scots seems realistic. But Turanic Irish people? :eek::laugh2::laugh: Please do me a favour and give it up :D Don't tackle with topics with which you are not familiar with. Seriously ;) You are getting applause from the wrong side.

[Pallantides]

Three Turanic Norwegians from Vang in Hedmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vang,_Hedmark


Oluf Vold
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/olufvold_zpsd7043dd3.jpg

Eli Syljuseth
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/ELISYLJUSETH_zps77aa345c.jpg

Lars Kåtrop
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/larsktorp_zps859a13b1.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/VX5d42n.png

[Proto-Shaman]

http://i.imgur.com/VX5d42n.png
Are there any scientific evidence for this?

[Loki]

^^ I think Palla is trolling.

[Legion]

http://i.imgur.com/VX5d42n.png

White or red part? :P

[Pallantides]

http://www.disnorge.no/cms/system/files/offentlige_filer/Haplogroup-Q%20Eupedia.gif


White or red part? :P

Red obviously.

[Onur]

http://www.disnorge.no/cms/system/files/offentlige_filer/Haplogroup-Q%20Eupedia.gif
Whaaatt?!

There are over 4% Y-DNA Q people in some parts of Norway? and in northwestern Italy too?

I didn't know that!

Afaik, Q`s are in fact Mongols but their admixture with the rest of the Europeans might give turanid look to these people over the generations. Btw the haplogroup Q never reaches over 4% anywhere in Turkey.

[EliasAlucard]

Yes but I think they migrated at about the same time as Celts also broke away from the Indo-European main group (eg in the first wave) thus they share many characteristics with Celts.No, the Tocharians were the second branch to split from PIE (after Anatolian), so they split before the proto-Celts emerged from the Italo-Celtic group. And unlike modern Celtic speakers, the Tocharians were R1a-M17+.


I would think there were more similarities with Indo-Iranians, considering the geographical closeness.No, the Tocharians didn't have much to do with the Indo-Iranians other than both being IE speakers/descendants. The Tocharians were Centum, not Satem like Indo-Iranians. And unlike modern Indo-Iranian speakers, the Tocharians were white (which the proto-Indo-Iranians were as well before they mixed with natives).


^^ I think Palla is trolling.Yeah, and it's totally off topic too :)


Edit:

By the way, the Tarim mummies had nothing to do with Nordics or Scandinavia, it's just that the Nordid phenotype comes from the proto-Indo-Europeans, so there were obviously other types of Indo-European descendants who had light hair, blue eyes etc., such as the Scythians, the Tocharians, the Celts and so on.

[Pallantides]

Yeah, and it's totally off topic too :)


It's not off-topic, it was a response to Kipchak_Håkan.
It is taken from the great anthropological work of Horst von Tyskland: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?71161-The-Races-of-Norway-by-Horst-von-Tyskland

Both me and my Swedish partner finþaų are followers of the great Horst von Tyskland and we aid him by presenting his work to the public.

[EliasAlucard]

It's not off-topic, it was a response to Kipchak_Håkan.It's totally off topic as the Tocharians had nothing to do with imagined Turco-Mongoloid Norwegians. And Turk-wannabe Håkan's posts were also off topic.


It is taken from the great anthropological work of Horst von Tyskland: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?71161-The-Races-of-Norway-by-Horst-von-TysklandStill off topic.

If you don't want to discuss the Tocharians, that's fine, just don't pretend it has anything to do with topic ;)

[Proto-Shaman]

It's totally off topic as the Tocharians had nothing to do with imagined Turco-Mongoloid Norwegians. And Turk-wannabe Håkan's posts were also off topic.

Still off topic.

If you don't want to discuss the Tocharians, that's fine, just don't pretend it has anything to do with topic ;)
Tocharian A, B has nothing to do with Turkic Tochar/Tokhars.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?67590-Urumchi-The-Ancient-Nordic-Mummies-of-China&p=1359902&viewfull=1#post1359902

[Valerius]

Kipchak Håkan, can you stop trolling with pan-turkism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Turkism

[Fear Fiain]

Yes but I think they migrated at about the same time as Celts also broke away from the Indo-European main group (eg in the first wave) thus they share many characteristics with Celts.

don't mind Hassad. He just hates any facts that might lead to unity among Indo-Europeans, because he wants to exterminate us.

[gültekin]

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/bypjfb1Bj6g/hqdefault.jpg
go and find ur indo-euro ancestors in the swamp, where they hunted frog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPP2_f2RlQ

[DerekMorlock]

Hungarians-or Uyghurs

[DerekMorlock]

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/bypjfb1Bj6g/hqdefault.jpg
go and find ur indo-euro ancestors in the swamp, where they hunted frog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPP2_f2RlQ

I know this actress is greek-albo
But ancient Turks were europid in Asia its true.

[Alphawolf]

I know this actress is greek-albo
But ancient Turks were europid in Asia its true.

That's not true. She's a German-born Turkish actress.

[aherne]

They looked like Aryans because they were Aryans (why would they look anything different?). It's as if wondering why Peruan mummies from first millennium AD look Amerindian and not Mestizo or Spanish...

Loulan Beauty is harder to classify, probably a Pamir type mixed with Aryan:
http://chinesemummies.weebly.com/uploads/2/8/7/5/28753909/8361804_orig.jpg
https://aryanity.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/chapter-4-figure-4.jpg

[Anglojew]

That's not true. She's a German-born Turkish actress.

They don't look alike and besides Turkish Turks are genetically mainly Anatolian not Turkic.

[Peterski]

well preserved bodies of Indo-Europeans of the Nordic (and possibly Kelto-Nordic) variety

On what basis this Keltic Nordid for Tocharians ???

Out of 12 male mummies, 11 were R1a1a M198+ (and most certainly M417+, but they were not tested for M417) and 1 was K*.

R1a is not associated with Keltic Nordid, but rather with East Nordid (as well as some other anthropological types).

Moreover, large % of those Tarim mummies had C4 mtDNA haplogroup - indicating that they probably married local East Asian women.

C4 is believed to be a native East Asian mtDNA haplogroup. They also had West Eurasian mtDNA apart from C4.

So while ~100% of their Y-DNA was Caucasoid (Western Eurasian), probably more than half of female lines were local, Mongoloid.

[aksakallicocuk]

they are partly our ancestors. We are mix of asians and those fellas

[Peterski]

they are partly our ancestors. We are mix of asians and those fellas

Yes. But they still did not speak Turkic language at that time. They spoke Tocharian, an IE language.

Expansion route of Indo-European languages in Asia:

http://s4.postimg.org/9tawt4lct/andronovo3.jpg

First Proto-Indo-Europeans came to the Altai Mountains during the Copper Age and formed the Afanasiev Culture:


End of the 3rd millennium BC. Afanasiev Culture (Neolithic). The Afanasiev people were stockbreeders of cattle, sheep, horses, but also hunted wild game. The sites of this period are burial places under low mounds (kurgans) surrounded by circular stonewalls. Associated with burials were dentate stamped pots. Stone and bone tools were common although there were some copper ornaments.

Afanasiev Culture was the home of Tocharians (among others). The next wave were Indo-Iranians (Andronovo culture):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?94294-Siberian-Princess-reveals-her-2-500-year-old-tattoos&p=3628466&viewfull=1#post3628466

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/260249780_Climate-Induced_Changes_in_Population_Dynamics_of_Siberian _Scythians_%28700-250_BC%29

http://s2.postimg.org/wrmkvnyix/Tocharian.png

They spoke Indo-European until the 8th century AD, when they were conquered by Turkic peoples of the Uyghur branch.

These are inscriptions in Tocharian from period between the 5th century AD and the 8th century AD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Tocharian.JPG

Proto-Turkic language originated in the Far East - probably in Inner Mongolia and North-Central / North-Eastern China.

Turkic languages are closely related to Mongolic, Japonic (spoken in Japan), Koreanic (spoken in Korea) and Tungusic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages

First inscriptions written in Old Turkic language are inscriptions from the Orkhon Valley in Mongolia from the 8th century AD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orkhon_inscriptions

Turkic westward expansion took place during the Late Iron Age and the Early Middle Ages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_migration

Indo-European languages were spoken in the steppe first, during the Copper, Bronze and Early Iron Ages.

Most of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian steppe later either migrated south (to India, Iran, the Middle East and Asia Minor - where they established their realms) or stayed in the steppe and were eventually overwhelmed and absorbed into expanding Turkic and Tatar peoples. The easternmost groups which preserved their Indo-European language until today are the Iranian-speaking Tajiks and Sarikoli of Western China. They are still in 45% people of R1a hg today (Wells, Spencer et al. 2001). Their 2nd most common hg is probably J:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAQpdNEWpng

Check also:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?173359-My-tree-of-R1-haplogroup-%28with-a-timeline-and-ethno-linguistic-data%29&p=3628123#post3628123

R1b-M478 (which is very common for example among the Bashkirs) seems to be the "genuinely Turkic" branch of R1b:

Large version (link): http://s7.postimg.org/6gf8nevmx/PIE_Tree.png

http://s10.postimg.org/3tv4muvbt/PIE_Tree_Small.png

[Arhat]

they are partly our ancestors. We are mix of asians and those fellas

Oh please stop talking bullshit you have zero Tocharian blood and anatolian Turks are just Armenians, Kurds and Greeks with tiny Turkic admixture.

[Arhat]

Whaaatt?!

There are over 4% Y-DNA Q people in some parts of Norway? and in northwestern Italy too?

I didn't know that!

Afaik, Q`s are in fact Mongols but their admixture with the rest of the Europeans might give turanid look to these people over the generations. Btw the haplogroup Q never reaches over 4% anywhere in Turkey.

stop embarrassing yourself. R and Q are both closely related (ANE) non-east asian paternal lineages but carriers of Y-DNA Q moved into east Asia and east Siberia and mixed there heavily with Mongoloids . Q in Norway has nothing to do with Turks or east Asians

[Peterski]

The Asian steppe was a huge melting pot. At first PIE expansion from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the east, then Altaic expansion to the west. Turkic people are a Caucasoid-Mongoloid mix, but their languages originated in East Asia, close to Mongolic, Japonic, Koreanic and Tungusic.

[Peterski]

Q in Norway has nothing to do with Turks or east Asians

I don't know what subclade of Q they have in Scandinavia, but it could (maybe) have something to do with the Huns:

https://www.academia.edu/5352394/Scandinavia_and_the_Huns_an_Interdisciplinary_Appr oach_to_the_Migration_Era

On the other hand, there is also Q in North America, so maybe Vikings brought back some natives from there.

[Arhat]

I don't know what subclade of Q they have in Scandinavia, but it could (maybe) have something to do with the Huns:

https://www.academia.edu/5352394/Scandinavia_and_the_Huns_an_Interdisciplinary_Appr oach_to_the_Migration_Era

On the other hand, there is also Q in North America, so maybe Vikings brought back some natives from there.

this can not be excluded but i dont think so. I think that Q in Scandinavia has a very old presence and i would not exclude that PIEs carried beside of R1a and R1b also a tiny bit Q. It could have also a Scythian origin but it is hard to explain how Scythians should arrive in Scandinavia. The presence of this haplogroup in Scandinavia is a mystery but there were no migrations of Turks or Huns into Scandinavia if i am not wrong.

[Peterski]

The Huns subjugated some of Germanic tribes and Hunnic rulers took daughters of their rulers as wifes - for example Balamber, son of Liu:

The Origin and Deeds of the Goths by Jordanes (http://christogenea.org/references/origin-and-deeds-goths-jordanes)


(...) in the third battle, when they [the Huns and the Goths] met each other unexpectedly at the river named Erac, Balamber shot an arrow and wounded Vinitharius [Gothic king] in the head, so that he died. Then Balamber took to himself in marriage Vadamerca, the grand-daughter of Vinitharius, and finally ruled all the people of the Goths as his subjects (...)

Some genealogies then claim that Fredemundus of the Salian Franks (born in 394 AD) was a son of Balamber and Vadamerca.

Odowaker (also known as Odoacer / Odoaker), born in 433 AD, could be a great-grandson of the same Balamber.

Mother of Atilla the Hun could also be local European. Atilla's father is known, he was Mundzuk (Μουνδίουχος). But his mother is unknown.

[Arhat]

The Huns subjugated some Germanic tribes and Hunnic rulers took daughters of their rulers as wifes - for example Balamber, son of Liu:

The Origin and Deeds of the Goths by Jordanes (http://christogenea.org/references/origin-and-deeds-goths-jordanes)



Some genealogies then claim that Fredemundus of the Salian Franks (born in 394 AD) was a son of Balamber and Vadamerca.

Odowaker (also known as Odoacer / Odoaker), born in 433 AD, could also be a great-grandson of the same Balamber.

Mother of Atilla the Hun could also be European. Atilla's father's is known - his name was Mundzuk (Μουνδίουχος). But his mother is unknown.
possible that a founder effect spread Hunnic Q into Scandinavia but i am very sceptical about that. If Hunns had a genetic impact in Europe than at best in Central and Eastern Europe not in Scandinavia where they were not present in any time but i could be totally wrong

[Peterski]

Main routes of the Hunnic invasion of Europe:

In the north they besieged Orleans, and later were defeated at Chalons:

http://s28.postimg.org/t0lpt4r3f/Hunnic_invasion.png

Haplogroup Q in Europe according to Eupedia:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

[Arhat]

Main routes of the Hunnic invasion of Europe:

In the north they besieged Orleans, and later were defeated at Chalons:

http://s28.postimg.org/t0lpt4r3f/Hunnic_invasion.png

Haplogroup Q in Europe according to Eupedia:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

The peak in southwest France looks like the result of Hunnic admixture but i still dont see enough evidences for Hunnic admixture among Scandinavians. It is a mystery how Q entered Scandinavia and i would like to know which subclade they carry but Scythian and EHG admixture could also brought Q to Scandinavia.

[Stimpy]

The Caucasian, often heavily, tattooed mummies are of very tall blonde and red headed individuals with men upto 6'6" in height and would have been imposing figures in ancient times. They are dressed in very typical indo-european tartan designs. They often have Marijuana with them.

Seriously, can you get any fucking cooler than this?

[Anglojew]

Seriously, can you get any fucking cooler than this?

That description would easily fit a contemporary white guy from someplace like California.

[Anglojew]

On what basis this Keltic Nordid for Tocharians ???

Out of 12 male mummies, 11 were R1a1a M198+ (and most certainly M417+, but they were not tested for M417) and 1 was K*.

R1a is not associated with Keltic Nordid, but rather with East Nordid (as well as some other anthropological types).

Moreover, large % of those Tarim mummies had C4 mtDNA haplogroup - indicating that they probably married local East Asian women.

C4 is believed to be a native East Asian mtDNA haplogroup. They also had West Eurasian mtDNA apart from C4.

So while ~100% of their Y-DNA was Caucasoid (Western Eurasian), probably more than half of female lines were local, Mongoloid.

I'm talking about phenotype.

[Anglojew]

I don't know what subclade of Q they have in Scandinavia, but it could (maybe) have something to do with the Huns:

https://www.academia.edu/5352394/Scandinavia_and_the_Huns_an_Interdisciplinary_Appr oach_to_the_Migration_Era

On the other hand, there is also Q in North America, so maybe Vikings brought back some natives from there.

Yes some researchers think it's Hunnic but I think it probably predates Huns.

Q in other parts Europe, as far as France, does seem to mirror Hunnic migration though.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/maps/images/089%20Hun%20Invasion%20of%20Persian%20Empire%20450 %20Map.jpg

[Anglojew]

this can not be excluded but i dont think so. I think that Q in Scandinavia has a very old presence and i would not exclude that PIEs carried beside of R1a and R1b also a tiny bit Q. It could have also a Scythian origin but it is hard to explain how Scythians should arrive in Scandinavia. The presence of this haplogroup in Scandinavia is a mystery but there were no migrations of Turks or Huns into Scandinavia if i am not wrong.

Yes, it's quite mysterious at present. Q(1b) is associated with early IE (probably Scythian and associated tribes) migrations though:



https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31/1483774_186091991592269_1920299087_o.jpg

[Sacrificed Ram]

They only just looked like currently tadjik.

And their hair decolorized after mummification.

And according I remember Tocharian was related with celto-italiota-anatolian languages (Centum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%80%93satem_isogloss#The_Centum_concept)) than iranic languages (Satem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%80%93satem_isogloss#The_Satem_concept)).

And Tarim Basin is an important pocket of R1b yDNA clade in eastern eurasia.

[Anglojew]

They only just looked like currently tadjik.

And their hair decolorized after mummification.

And according I remember Tocharian was related with celto-italiota-anatolian languages (Centum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%80%93satem_isogloss#The_Centum_concept)) than iranic languages (Satem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%80%93satem_isogloss#The_Satem_concept)).

And Tarim Basin is an important pocket of R1b yDNA clade in eastern eurasia.

There's no evidence their hair wasn't blond originally.

It's not conclusively proven they were Tocharian in origin.

[Sacrificed Ram]

this can not be excluded but i dont think so. I think that Q in Scandinavia has a very old presence and i would not exclude that PIEs carried beside of R1a and R1b also a tiny bit Q. It could have also a Scythian origin but it is hard to explain how Scythians should arrive in Scandinavia. The presence of this haplogroup in Scandinavia is a mystery but there were no migrations of Turks or Huns into Scandinavia if i am not wrong.

But Atilla appears even into icelandic legends (Eddas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edda)), it just proves some germanics migrated back to North Europe, maybe...

[Anglojew]

But Atilla appears even into icelandic legends (Eddas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edda)), it just proves some germanics migrated back to North Europe, maybe...

This bronze age body had some interesting evidence about migration:

http://www.livescience.com/50911-bronze-age-danish-burial.html

[Peterski]

And according I remember Tocharian was related with celto-italiota-anatolian languages (Centum) than iranic languages (Satem).

Centum/Satem are just certain sound changes - AFAIK, it doesn't really say that much about how closely languages are related to each other. Satemization is an innovation, while Centum is how it was before. Tocharian is Centum because it split from Indo-Iranian before Satemization occured. IIRC, Satemization probably occured more than just once and here could also be Re-Centumization (IIRC, Hittite language was probably Satemized and Re-Centumized). Armenian is a Satem language but Armenians are mostly R1b, while Tocharians were R1a and Centum.

[Peterski]

It's not conclusively proven they were Tocharian in origin.

They were - Tocharians originated from the Afanasiev culture, and it split early on from the PIE dialect continuum:

http://s2.postimg.org/wrmkvnyix/Tocharian.png

Chinese people called Indo-Europeans who lived next to them - such as Indo-Iranians and Tocharians - the Yuezhi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi

[Peterski]

The presence of this haplogroup in Scandinavia is a mystery but there were no migrations of Turks or Huns into Scandinavia if i am not wrong.

The chart posted by Anglojew shows that Q-L245* subclade found in Europe is the same as this found in Turks, though.

So it could come to Scandinavia with the Huns (who could be Turkic-speakers, see the link):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_language#Possible_affiliations

Even if actual Huns did not come to Scandinavia, then still some Hunnic leaders took some Germanic women as their wifes.

And then some of such people with Hunnic admixture in Y-DNA could migrate to Scandinavia.

The paper by Lotte Hedeager that I linked, claims that there is archaeological evidence that some Huns came to Scandinavia.

[Peterski]

But Atilla appears even into icelandic legends (Eddas), it just proves some germanics migrated back to North Europe, maybe

The battle of Chalons was a huge "multi-ethnic" battle with Romans+Germanics+various others versus Huns+Germanics+various others. The Pro-Hunnic side lost, and what happened with survivors? Many probably dispersed in various directions and were marauding in North-Western Europe. Some of them could even come to Scandinavia. Maybe some Germanics from the defeated Pro-Hunnic army, together with some Huns.

[Proto-Shaman]

The Asian steppe was a huge melting pot. At first PIE expansion from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the east, then Altaic expansion to the west. Turkic people are a Caucasoid-Mongoloid mix, but their languages originated in East Asia, close to Mongolic, Japonic, Koreanic and Tungusic.
Turkic peoples originated from Caucasoid Mongoloids of Neolithic South Siberia (hp's mainly R and N with some additional Q and C), it's an independently developed anhtropological type. Later they migrated to every corner of Eurasia mixed with the locals, came back, mixed again, and migrated again to what is now called the areal of Turkic speaking peoples and mixed again with the locals. End of journey. Altaic is just a hypothetical language family, it has more rights to exist than IE language family does, but in essence, both "language families" are fictive wish dreams of modern 19th c. splitters.

[Proto-Shaman]

Most of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian steppe later either migrated south (to India, Iran, the Middle East and Asia Minor - where they established their realms) or stayed in the steppe and were eventually overwhelmed and absorbed into expanding Turkic and Tatar peoples.
I hardly believe this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yo928Hon9Ww/UzN-U-aGWMI/AAAAAAAAJiM/3AE7m5bNwCY/s1600/ejhg201450f3.jpg

Either Turks had a time machine or we were just good in Y-DNA-manipulation.

Also, this is the current level of forum-knowledge from the western point of view:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/Danishmend/1_zpsd2501096.png~original


R1b-M478 (which is very common for example among the Bashkirs) seems to be the "genuinely Turkic" branch of R1b:

Large version (link): http://s7.postimg.org/6gf8nevmx/PIE_Tree.png

http://s10.postimg.org/3tv4muvbt/PIE_Tree_Small.png
R1b-M478 is not genuinely Turkic but rather specific Bashkir. Other Turkic lines mainly consist of M73 and L-23.


They were - Tocharians originated from the Afanasiev culture, and it split early on from the PIE dialect continuum:

http://s2.postimg.org/wrmkvnyix/Tocharian.png

Chinese people called Indo-Europeans who lived next to them - such as Indo-Iranians and Tocharians - the Yuezhi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi
"...the term "Tocharian" is considered a misnomer.[11][12][13] Nevertheless, it remains the standard term for the language of the Tarim Basin manuscripts.[2][14]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages

[Anglojew]

The chart posted by Anglojew shows that Q-L245* subclade found in Europe is the same as this found in Turks, though.

So it could come to Scandinavia with the Huns (who could be Turkic-speakers, see the link):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_language#Possible_affiliations

Even if actual Huns did not come to Scandinavia, then still some Hunnic leaders took some Germanic women as their wifes.

And then some of such people with Hunnic admixture in Y-DNA could migrate to Scandinavia.

The paper by Lotte Hedeager that I linked, claims that there is archaeological evidence that some Huns came to Scandinavia.

Turks absorbed and intermarried with Scythians as they moved west.

[Anglojew]

Turkic peoples originated from Caucasoid Mongoloids of Neolithic South Siberia (hp's mainly R and N with some additional Q and C), it's an independently developed anhtropological type. Later they migrated to every corner of Eurasia mixed with the locals, came back, mixed again, and migrated again to what is now called the areal of Turkic speaking peoples and mixed again with the locals. End of journey. Altaic is just a hypothetical language family, it has more rights to exist than IE language family does, but in essence, both "language families" are fictive wish dreams of modern 19th c. splitters.

Can you explain what you mean by "Caucasoid Mongoloid?"

[Arhat]

I hardly believe this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yo928Hon9Ww/UzN-U-aGWMI/AAAAAAAAJiM/3AE7m5bNwCY/s1600/ejhg201450f3.jpg

Either Turks had a time machine or we were just good in Y-DNA-manipulation.

Also, this is the current level of forum-knowledge from the western point of view:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/Danishmend/1_zpsd2501096.png~original


R1b-M478 is not genuinely Turkic but rather specific Bashkir. Other Turkic lines mainly consist of M73 and L-23.


"...the term "Tocharian" is considered a misnomer.[11][12][13] Nevertheless, it remains the standard term for the language of the Tarim Basin manuscripts.[2][14]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages

Be proud of your caucasoid Scythian R1 ancestry :) . There is nothing bad about not being the descendant of ugly, small, small eyed and primitive Altaics ;) . You Pan-Turanians are really annoying idiots and in most cases not even real Turks. Turkic people with much Altaic ancestry are actually quite decent people and give a fuck about Pan-Turanism but wannabe Turks of Scythian, Kurdish, Greek or Armenian origin are the most annoying pan-Turanians because they have weird inferiority complexes

[ButlerKing]

Urumchi-The-Ancient-Nordic-Mummies-of-China

If Urumchi is China than Kashmir is India. Is obviously "not fucking China ". It's only officially part of China in 1949 when the communist regime conquered them, anyone with a little bit commonsense after doing some history searching will know it use to be a different country, considered foreign land by the Chinese and even today they are still a muslim turkic ethnic group who are not Chinese in every way.

And how can you say the Chinese emperors where white when it was was the Chinese who conquered and rape Tocharian ass. Tocharians were under Han dynasty, Tang dynasty and many other Chinese kingdoms who controlled them. And Chinese emperors refereed them to barbarians from the western world. It was only ever considered part of China in 1949.

Here is the true map of China.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YWRGY1n-f6s/UaYdMJzNYqI/AAAAAAAAAIM/BpWLDkxmx0Y/s1600/Mongol_Tuved_Uyghur.png

[Anglojew]

If Urumchi is China than Kashmir is India. Is obviously "not fucking China ". It's only officially part of China in 1949 when the communist regime conquered them, anyone with a little bit commonsense after doing some history searching will know it use to be a different country, considered foreign land by the Chinese and even today they are still a muslim turkic ethnic group who are not Chinese in every way.

And how can you say the Chinese emperors where white when it was was the Chinese who conquered and rape Tocharian ass. Tocharians were under Han dynasty, Tang dynasty and many other Chinese kingdoms who controlled them. And Chinese emperors refereed them to barbarians from the western world. It was only ever considered part of China in 1949.

Here is the true map of China.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YWRGY1n-f6s/UaYdMJzNYqI/AAAAAAAAAIM/BpWLDkxmx0Y/s1600/Mongol_Tuved_Uyghur.png

It's in todays China. It was always a major trade route to China. It was part of the Protectorate General to Pacify the West from 640 CE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate_General_to_Pacify_the_West

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/%E5%94%90%E6%9C%9D%E7%96%86%E5%9F%9F%EF%BC%88%E7%B 9%81%EF%BC%89.png/800px-%E5%94%90%E6%9C%9D%E7%96%86%E5%9F%9F%EF%BC%88%E7%B 9%81%EF%BC%89.png


Also, Kashmir is India.

[ButlerKing]

It's in todays China. It was always a major trade route to China. It was part of the Protectorate General to Pacify the West from 640 CE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate_General_to_Pacify_the_West

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/%E5%94%90%E6%9C%9D%E7%96%86%E5%9F%9F%EF%BC%88%E7%B 9%81%EF%BC%89.png/800px-%E5%94%90%E6%9C%9D%E7%96%86%E5%9F%9F%EF%BC%88%E7%B 9%81%EF%BC%89.png

Can't you see your map of the Tang dynasty also included parts of northern Vietnam......as well as controlling Mongolia, Afghanistan, Persia, Central Asia as tribute vassal states. Can't you see it's just a Chinese empire invading territories that never belong to them. By your logic North Korean should be part of Chinese.



[QUOTE]
Also, Kashmir is India.


No, Kashmir is not India. First the people don't consider themselves Indian and always say they are a distinct ethic group, second they had been independent from India in most of history and are still fighting for independence.

Lastly, 1/2 of their population look more like Iranid-Afghan than a South Asian. Although many of them can no doubt pass for South Asian aswell. They speak Dardic language where it only exist in east Afghanistan and Kashmir.


I had always viewed them differently as do most Indian. They would rather identify with a Balochi from east Afghanistan than with Indian and Pakistanis.

Here are Kashmiris

http://www.kashmirobserver.net/sites/default/files/newsfiles/photos/2014/05/96jk-kashmiris-pray-t-10003974-1401167647-1347153469.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/02/05/india.kashmir.protest/t1larg.kashmir.protest.gi.jpg
http://onlykashmir.in/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mirwaiz-375x250.jpg

[aherne]

[QUOTE=Anglojew;3632355]It's in todays China. It was always a major trade route to China. It was part of the Protectorate General to Pacify the West from 640 CE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate_General_to_Pacify_the_West

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/%E5%94%90%E6%9C%9D%E7%96%86%E5%9F%9F%EF%BC%88%E7%B 9%81%EF%BC%89.png/800px-%E5%94%90%E6%9C%9D%E7%96%86%E5%9F%9F%EF%BC%88%E7%B 9%81%EF%BC%89.png

Can't you see your map of the Tang dynasty also included parts of northern Vietnam......as well as controlling Mongolia, Afghanistan, Persia, Central Asia as tribute vassal states. Can't you see it's just a Chinese empire invading territories that never belong to them. By your logic North Korean should be part of Chinese.






No, Kashmir is not India. First the people don't consider themselves Indian and always say they are a distinct ethic group, second they had been independent from India in most of history and are still fighting for independence.

Lastly, 1/2 of their population look more like Iranid-Afghan than a South Asian. Although many of them can no doubt pass for South Asian aswell. They speak Dardic language where it only exist in east Afghanistan and Kashmir.


I had always viewed them differently as do most Indian. They would rather identify with a Balochi from east Afghanistan than with Indian and Pakistanis.

Here are Kashmiris

http://www.kashmirobserver.net/sites/default/files/newsfiles/photos/2014/05/96jk-kashmiris-pray-t-10003974-1401167647-1347153469.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/02/05/india.kashmir.protest/t1larg.kashmir.protest.gi.jpg
http://onlykashmir.in/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mirwaiz-375x250.jpg

There are exceptions, but here is a group of Kashmiris (first picture I found @ google images), looking like typical Gypsies (watered-down Indians):
http://image.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/apr/02/photography/GD6779080@epa01302475-Kashmiri--6640.jpg
Others look like Pashtuns (completely Caucasoid):
http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate/2007/jklf_kashmiri_malik.jpg

I think they are a contact population living on the fringe of Indian subcontinent.

[Proto-Shaman]

Turks absorbed and intermarried with Scythians as they moved west.

Can you explain what you mean by "Caucasoid Mongoloid?"
This:
"Molecular (Clisson et al., 2002M Voevoda et al., 2000) and craniofacial (Chikisheva, 2000a) data obtained from Scytho-Siberian skeletons revealed that the Scytho-Siberian population population was of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin. Moreover, morphological analysis of ancient human skeletal remains from Altaic populations suggests that this biological heterogeneity was already present during the Neolithic and Bronze Age (Chikisheva, 2000a,b)."

http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1002%2Fajpa.10323?r3_referer=wol

[Proto-Shaman]

Be proud of your caucasoid Scythian R1 ancestry :) . There is nothing bad about not being the descendant of ugly, small, small eyed and primitive Altaics ;) . You Pan-Turanians are really annoying idiots and in most cases not even real Turks. Turkic people with much Altaic ancestry are actually quite decent people and give a fuck about Pan-Turanism but wannabe Turks of Scythian, Kurdish, Greek or Armenian origin are the most annoying pan-Turanians because they have weird inferiority complexes
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=58071&d=1433082322

Native Americans also Scythian? a.k.a. EUndo-Iropean? :picard2:

[Anglojew]

This:
"Molecular (Clisson et al., 2002M Voevoda et al., 2000) and craniofacial (Chikisheva, 2000a) data obtained from Scytho-Siberian skeletons revealed that the Scytho-Siberian population population was of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin. Moreover, morphological analysis of ancient human skeletal remains from Altaic populations suggests that this biological heterogeneity was already present during the Neolithic and Bronze Age (Chikisheva, 2000a,b)."

http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1002%2Fajpa.10323?r3_referer=wol

This doesn't mean they evolved as a hybrid just that Scythians intermarried with some Mongoloids as they moved east. Bronze Age Central Asia was entirely Caucasoid.

[Anglojew]

[QUOTE=Anglojew;3632355]It's in todays China. It was always a major trade route to China. It was part of the Protectorate General to Pacify the West from 640 CE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate_General_to_Pacify_the_West

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/%E5%94%90%E6%9C%9D%E7%96%86%E5%9F%9F%EF%BC%88%E7%B 9%81%EF%BC%89.png/800px-%E5%94%90%E6%9C%9D%E7%96%86%E5%9F%9F%EF%BC%88%E7%B 9%81%EF%BC%89.png

Can't you see your map of the Tang dynasty also included parts of northern Vietnam......as well as controlling Mongolia, Afghanistan, Persia, Central Asia as tribute vassal states. Can't you see it's just a Chinese empire invading territories that never belong to them. By your logic North Korean should be part of Chinese.






No, Kashmir is not India. First the people don't consider themselves Indian and always say they are a distinct ethic group, second they had been independent from India in most of history and are still fighting for independence.

Lastly, 1/2 of their population look more like Iranid-Afghan than a South Asian. Although many of them can no doubt pass for South Asian aswell. They speak Dardic language where it only exist in east Afghanistan and Kashmir.


I had always viewed them differently as do most Indian. They would rather identify with a Balochi from east Afghanistan than with Indian and Pakistanis.

Here are Kashmiris

http://www.kashmirobserver.net/sites/default/files/newsfiles/photos/2014/05/96jk-kashmiris-pray-t-10003974-1401167647-1347153469.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/02/05/india.kashmir.protest/t1larg.kashmir.protest.gi.jpg
http://onlykashmir.in/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mirwaiz-375x250.jpg

They only consider themselves different from Indians due to their Islamisation by the Moghul invaders. In reality they are Indians suffering mass Stockholm syndrome for their brutal former overlords identity.

[aherne]

[QUOTE=ButlerKing;3632403]They only consider themselves different from Indians due to their Islamisation by the Moghul invaders. In reality they are Indians suffering mass Stockholm syndrome for their brutal former overlords identity.

The thing is their languages are not Indic, but belongs to a different branch of Indo-Iranian (Dardic). Their looks kind of reflect this fact, since Dravidian substratum was one of the vectors of Indic developing apart and most likely the language spoken before in those high regions was an isolate such as Burushaski.

Still, most Kashmiris look like this, which is Indian pure and simple:
http://koausa.org/geography/images/KP2.jpg
This can only mean there were Veddoids before in that region...

Probably the Hindu preserve original type better than Muslims, who may be mixed with Pushtun people.
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00627/IN10_PANDIT_627524f.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8wnzaO3dP1r146zvo1_1280.jpg

Similarity to Gypsies is incredible, but may all be due to White admixture latter acquired in Europe...

[Anglojew]

[QUOTE=Anglojew;3633275]

The thing is their languages are not Indic, but belongs to a different branch of Indo-Iranian (Dardic). Their looks kind of reflect this fact, since Dravidian substratum was one of the vectors of Indic developing apart and most likely the language spoken before in those high regions was an isolate such as Burushaski.

Still, most Kashmiris look like this, which is Indian pure and simple:
http://koausa.org/geography/images/KP2.jpg
This can only mean there were Veddoids before in that region...

Probably the Hindu preserve original type better than Muslims, who may be mixed with Pushtun people.
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00627/IN10_PANDIT_627524f.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8wnzaO3dP1r146zvo1_1280.jpg

Similarity to Gypsies is incredible, but may all be due to White admixture latter acquired in Europe...

http://linguistics.buffalo.edu/people/faculty/dryer/dryer/map.sasia.gif

[Proto-Shaman]

This doesn't mean they evolved as a hybrid just that Scythians intermarried with some Mongoloids as they moved east. Bronze Age Central Asia was entirely Caucasoid.
The paper deals with non-hybrid South Siberians (north-central Asians) with a period of 10.000 years.

[Pennywise]

Be proud of your caucasoid Scythian R1 ancestry :) . There is nothing bad about not being the descendant of ugly, small, small eyed and primitive Altaics ;) . You Pan-Turanians are really annoying idiots and in most cases not even real Turks. Turkic people with much Altaic ancestry are actually quite decent people and give a fuck about Pan-Turanism but wannabe Turks of Scythian, Kurdish, Greek or Armenian origin are the most annoying pan-Turanians because they have weird inferiority complexes

Says a subhuman troll who can't even explain his ethnicty and hiding behind the EU flag. What a fucking imbecile. :picard2:

[Anglojew]

The paper deals with non-hybrid South Siberians (north-central Asians) with a period of 10.000 years.

Where does the paper prove a relationship between those people and Turks?

[Proto-Shaman]

not to mention that the article is based on only 2 specimen. xD
Which of your brain cell caused the error in your thinking process associating 2 Scytho-Siberian skeletal remains from the late Iron Age with the Neolithic period? derewnoj xD

[Proto-Shaman]

http://shrani.si/f/42/r0/4UXBip3E/lel.png

keep working on your reading skills pidar ebany.
May I can ask how old you are and at what level your English is? If your English is not well, I can give you the Russian version so that your brain cells can get it. [serious question]

[Proto-Shaman]

Where does the paper prove a relationship between those people and Turks?
Don't have full access to show you which Altaic tribes they exactly mean, but today mainly eastern Uralic tribes of western Siberia, Yeniseian tribes, and south-siberian and central asian Turkic tribes of Tien Shan, Altai-Sayan, Dzungaria, Yenisei, Minusinsk, Abakan, Krasnoyarsk etc. are of this anhtropological type. So extremely multiethnic. (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Chikisheva/ChikishevaTASSiberianMesolithEn.htm)

[Wild North]

The Tocharians were Turanian? :rolleyes:

[Turkminator]

The Tocharians were Turanian? :rolleyes:

Anyway, they were not Aryans, that's for sure. For this they are too fair-skinned and fair-haired.

[Proto-Shaman]

http://shrani.si/f/42/r0/4UXBip3E/lel.png

keep working on your reading skills pidar ebany.
May I can ask how old you are and at what level your English is? If your English is not well, I can give you the Russian version so that your brain cells can get it. [serious question]

Because I am a good hearted person:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=58472&d=1434113427

[Proto-Shaman]

Anyway, they were not Aryans, that's for sure. For this they are too fair-skinned and fair-haired.
Its not even proven that Tocharians were really the people who spoke the IE dialects erroneously called "Tocharian A, B and C", this is just speculation.

[LightHouse89]

Yes but I think they migrated at about the same time as Celts also broke away from the Indo-European main group (eg in the first wave) thus they share many characteristics with Celts.

I have found books on this by the way written by James Mallory on the the tocharians. He is studies this shit at some university in Northern Ireland. I do know that some Irish/Scottish DNA can be traced to the eurasian steppes, infact there are populations of Udmurts who share alot of DNA with people in the British Islands supposedly. Although people claim that the tocharians were proto-celts or something. There could be some link between them.

[Anglojew]

I have found books on this by the way written by James Mallory on the the tocharians. He is studies this shit at some university in Northern Ireland. I do know that some Irish/Scottish DNA can be traced to the eurasian steppes, infact there are populations of Udmurts who share alot of DNA with people in the British Islands supposedly. Although people claim that the tocharians were proto-celts or something. There could be some link between them.

That would explain the red hair similarity between Udmurts and Celts.