Should Sicily receive independence from Italy and join with Malta?

[Sikeliot]

Why or why not?

If anyone remembers alfieb on ABF, he always thought the best thing is for Sicily to be independent from Italy and reunite with Malta.

What would be the advantages and disadvantages of doing this? Would Sicily adopt the Maltese language, which came from there anyway, or would Maltese people adopt Italian?

Culturally, apart from the language, there are many more similarities than differences -- certainly more similarities than either of them shares with northern Italy or anyone else.

[Twistedmind]

Hm, I think Sicily should remain Italian, and Malta could join if people there wish so.

[Virtuous]

Our Language, our History, our Identity, our Nationality..

is Maltese.

[Sikeliot]

Our Language, our History, our Identity, our Nationality..

is Maltese.

So you don't think it would be beneficial for them to unite?

My argument wouldn't be that Maltese people should "become" Sicilian, but rather that true Sicilian culture, history is shared much more with Malta than with many Italian regions. There is not much that bonds Sicily to Venice, Emilia-Romagna, Marche, or Tuscany.. but much that bonds it to Malta.

[Žołnir]

In that case rather Sicily gains independance and Malta joins Sicily. If they have good reasons to become independent let them be. :)

[Incal]

It wouldn't be beneficial to Malta. Not at all.

[Sikeliot]

Maltese culture is more like the original, "true" Sicilian culture.. which is disintegrating the longer they are part of Italy. I don't want to see them become a copy of Emilia-Romagna or another Tuscany. I'd like to see Sicily join with Malta and become more culturally "Maltese", so it wouldn't be a cultural change so much as a restoration of what I consider the true Sicilian culture.

[Virtuous]

However, I kinda like the idea of uniting Malta and Sicily with the only condition that Malta is the rightful leading "Influence" since we have a richer History (from the Megalithic Temples to the Knights Hospitaller), a badass Flag, better management of resources and financial/budget/trade/investment skills.

[Sikeliot]

However, I kinda like the idea of uniting Malta and Sicily with the only condition that Malta is the rightful leading "Influence" since we have a richer History (from the Megalithic Temples to the Knights Hospitaller), a badass Flag, better management of resources and financial/budget/trade/investment skills.

I agree for this reason. Much of Sicilian culture is now pan-Italian and originated on the mainland. Italian language is from Tuscany, for instance. The Maltese language originated in Sicily.

[Virtuous]

It wouldn't be beneficial to Malta. Not at all.

I agree with this, if we were to join Italy.. Malta wouldn't be given any priorities or special attention, just look at Sicily and how they are treated, it's much less developed than Malta.

[Žołnir]

However, I kinda like the idea of uniting Malta and Sicily with the only condition that Malta is the rightful leading "Influence" since we have a richer History (from the Megalithic Temples to the Knights Hospitaller), a badass Flag, better management of resources and financial/budget/trade/investment skills.

Well Malta is better off seperate.

[Twistedmind]

Emh, Sicily have richer history than Malta. Magna Graecia, Arhimedes, ... Byzantines, Arabs, Normans, Friedrich II, Angevins, Catalans.... Churches, monasteries, mosaics,...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Martorana_RogerII.jpg/417px-Martorana_RogerII.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Emh, Sicily have richer history than Malta. Magna Graecia, Arhimedes, ... Byzantines, Arabs, Normans, Friedrich II, Angevins, Catalans.... Churches, monasteries, mosaics,...

But Maltese heritage and culture is basically Sicilian culture of the Middle Ages, plus British influences. The blood of Magna Graecia, Archimedes, the Byzantines, Arabs, and Normans is in the Maltese too.

[Virtuous]

Emh, Sicily have richer history than Malta. Magna Graecia, Arhimedes, ... Byzantines, Arabs, Normans, Friedrich II, Angevins, Catalans.... Churches, monasteries, mosaics,...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Martorana_RogerII.jpg/417px-Martorana_RogerII.jpg

add the Knights Hospitaller to those and you got Malta's History.

edit: also the oldest Megalithic constructions in Europe, if not the world.

[Twistedmind]

But Maltese heritage and culture is basically Sicilian culture of the Middle Ages, plus British influences. The blood of Magna Graecia, Archimedes, the Byzantines, Arabs, and Normans is in the Maltese too.

Hm, well, similar connection exists with Southern Italy, as far as Napoli and Bari. Not to mention It was called Sicily as well in past. Kingdom of Two Sicilies.

[Sikeliot]

Hm, well, similar connection exists with Southern Italy, as far as Napoli and Bari. Not to mention It was called Sicily as well in past. Kingdom of Two Sicilies.

It becomes complicated because culture evolves so rapidly that you have to draw the line for what is the "true" culture of a land. To me, the true culture of a land is the culture that originated in its borders, and not what was transplanted from elsewhere.

[Virtuous]

However I prefer Norman Lowell's "IMPERIUM EVROPA" idea. As crazy as it might sound.

[Twistedmind]

It becomes complicated because culture evolves so rapidly that you have to draw the line for what is the "true" culture of a land. To me, the true culture of a land is the culture that originated in its borders, and not what was transplanted from elsewhere.
I knida agree, but as I said that culture is not just Sicilian, rather Pan-Southern Italian. And all is kind complicated, so I as foreigner would never mess in such bussiness. :)

[Scholarios]

When the South of Italy improves in some way, it could be a boon for Malta to join- obviously they are similar in culture. Of course, protection of the unique Maltese language (Punic?) should be priority as official language status along with Sicilian.

Add Calabria and possibly Apulia to the union as well. Hypothetically speaking it would be a good match. However, I don't know if Sicily is ready for this kind of thing.

[Sikeliot]

When the South of Italy improves in some way, it could be a boon for Malta to join- obviously they are similar in culture. Of course, protection of the unique Maltese language (Punic?) should be priority as official language status along with Sicilian.

Maltese language is the result of Maghrebi Arabic and the Sicilian language (a distinct Romance language that had formed from Latin in western Sicily) fusing together. It's classified as a Semitic language but much of its vocabulary is from Sicilian.

Most "Arabs" in Sicily were Arabic-speaking native origin Sicilians, who would have been largely of ancient Greek heritage along with Phoenician and some Italian from the mainland. When these people were expelled by the Normans, most went to Malta, and that's where the Maltese language came from along with their surnames.

Before the Normans expelled them, Sicily was basically culturally akin to today's Malta in the west, and Greek-speaking Orthodox Christians in the east. Whichever culture was dominant should have become the dominant Sicilian culture. But that didn't happen and eventually the Greek east was Latinized.

[Virtuous]

When the South of Italy improves in some way, it could be a boon for Malta to join- obviously they are similar in culture. Of course, protection of the unique Maltese language (Punic?) should be priority as official language status along with Sicilian.

Add Calabria and possibly Apulia to the union as well. Hypothetically speaking it would be a good match. However, I don't know if Sicily is ready for this kind of thing.

Malta-Sicily union without Malta losing it's name (not only that) is already hard, go figure Southern Italy. You're not understanding Sikeliot's point, Sicily's past is as a matter of fact Maltese, it all faded with the Italian occupation.

[Sikeliot]

Malta-Sicily union without Malta losing it's name (not only that) is already hard, go figure Southern Italy. You're not understanding Sikeliot's point, Sicily's past is as a matter of fact Maltese, it all faded with the Italian occupation.

Yes. I'll give a parallel to make it clear.

Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire (three states in the northern New England) are culturally very close to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Newfoundland in Canada. Imagine that those three Canadian provinces became annexed to Quebec, and became French-speaking, and nothing changed about northern New England.

It is likely that people from New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland would look to northern New England, in the US, and think "That is what our culture would have been if those damn Québécois didn't annex us!"

If Sicilians started speaking Maltese that'd be enough for me honestly because at least it originated on the island and not in Tuscany.

[Virtuous]

Yes. I'll give a parallel to make it clear.

Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire (three states in the northern New England) are culturally very close to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Newfoundland in Canada. Imagine that those three Canadian provinces became annexed to Quebec, and became French-speaking, and nothing changed about northern New England.

It is likely that people from New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland would look to northern New England, in the US, and think "That is what our culture would have been if those damn Québécois didn't annex us!"

Pretty much it :lol:. Though I don't want to create tensions between Malta and Italy by calling them damned, our relations are good :P.

[Sikeliot]

I was just saying it for emphasis. I love Italy and Italian culture. :) I just want to hold onto the things that make Sicily unique.

I said "those damn Quebecois" because my experience with French-Canadians has been bittersweet.

A similar sentiment I have sensed, but not heard explicit, is some Piedmontese people feeling like Occitans and believing that their true history lies with Occitan-speaking southern France and not with Lazio and Calabria.

[Scholarios]

Okay. I was viewing it kind of opposite, as simply Maltese culture was influenced by Sicilian, but not that the Maltese are actually the true Sicilians. Fascinating.

Is this a well-known part of the Maltese national narrative?

[Sikeliot]

Okay. I was viewing it kind of opposite, as simply Maltese culture was influenced by Sicilian, but not that the Maltese are actually the true Sicilians. Fascinating.

Is this a well-known part of the Maltese national narrative?

Another way to view it is that Malta is Sicily stuck in time. That's how it is described here:

http://www.bestofsicily.com/malta.htm

People probably know that the other island is similar to them, but I don't know how many people know the complete history.

[Twistedmind]

I tought Sicilains speak their own language (tough Romance), same as Calabrians and Apulians?

[Sikeliot]

I tought Sicilains speak their own language (tough Romance), same as Calabrians and Apulians?

It's dying out. :(

[Virtuous]

and I used to think of it as a joke when I said Sicily je Malta :D.

I'm curious what Sicilians think about it, how would they vote. I think a good portion of them would decide just to take indipendence, not to join with Malta (not being aware that they have much more in common with us than with Italy). Maybe I'm wrong about it, dunno.

[Sikeliot]

and I used to think of it as a joke when I said Sicily je Malta :D.

I'm curious what Sicilians think about it, how would they vote. I think a good portion of them would decide just to take indipendence, not to join with Malta (not being aware that they have much more in common with us than with Italy). Maybe I'm wrong about it, dunno.

Depends on how much they care about cultural identity. Those who are happy being "Italian" would not want independence. Those who want independence but for economic reasons would see no reason to unite with Malta.

I used to believe that all of southern Italy (Calabria, Sicily, Apulia, Basilicata) should separate and restore the Greek language and Greek Orthodoxy, but I realized that doing so would be even more difficult. I think I have evolved from seeing Sicilians as "Italianized Greeks" to seeing them as a complex mixture of groups that should, simply, have done a better job of preserving a distinct culture and not so easily accepting Tuscan as its language.

alfieb, another Sicilian American from ABF, was very pro-Maltese.

[Virtuous]

Depends on how much they care about cultural identity. Those who are happy being "Italian" would not want independence. Those who want independence but for economic reasons would see no reason to unite with Malta.

I used to believe that all of southern Italy (Calabria, Sicily, Apulia, Basilicata) should separate and restore the Greek language and Greek Orthodoxy, but I realized that doing so would be even more difficult. I think I have evolved from seeing Sicilians as "Italianized Greeks" to seeing them as a complex mixture of groups that should, simply, have done a better job of preserving a distinct culture and not so easily accepting Tuscan as its language.

alfieb, another Sicilian American from ABF, was very pro-Maltese.

Greek is too far fetched indeed. Anyway I'd like to get to know this long-lost Maltese brother :D.

Although...again, I am undecided between this and Norman Lowell's IMPERIVM EVROPA with Countries throughout Europe being Regions instead (whilst keeping their Identities, Cultures and so on as it is today), a Parliamentary system similar to EU but obviously right-wing, Latin being the main Language of IMPERVM and Malta serving as a Sacred Island with one of the the richest History and as the Capital with High Culture and Architecture within Europe and the Mediterranean. :D

Sounds neat to me!

[Sikeliot]

Greek is too far fetched indeed. Anyway I'd like to get to know this long-lost Maltese brother :D.

He was banned for constantly trolling and mocking the Finnish posters. :lol:


Although...again, I am undecided between this and Norman Lowell's IMPERIVM EVROPA with Countries throughout Europe being Regions instead (whilst keeping their Identities, Cultures and so on as it is today), a Parliamentary system similar to EU but obviously right-wing, Latin being the main Language of IMPERVM and Malta serving as a Sacred Island with one of the the richest History and as the Capital with High Culture and Architecture within Europe and the Mediterranean. :D

Sounds neat to me!

It is, but most people would not go for that because they would fear collective identities and that their individual identities would be compromised.

[Virtuous]

He was banned for constantly trolling and mocking the Finnish posters. :lol:

Ah, damn it.


It is, but most people would not go for that because they would fear collective identities and that their individual identities would be compromised.

There is no absolute certainty, however many Nationalists throughout Europe (and even the States) support his idea already, must mean something :shrug:.

Oh by the way, the Idea isn't actually his, he only continued it and shaped it better with his famous book "Imperium Europa", sort of like the Right-wing/populist version of the Communist Manifesto.

[rashka]

I think the unification wouldn't work mainly because of the sea that separates them. If they shared borders then it might work but even then...there's the language barrier.

[Virtuous]

I think the unification wouldn't work mainly because of the sea that separates them. If they shared borders then it might work but even then...there's the language barrier.

We could always construct a bridge :thumb001: :D

Or use artificial land...hmm? I wonder how much resources and money that would cost :laugh:

[Foxy]

I think that if Italy was a federation, then Malta could join but not as a Sicilian province. More like a 21st region. Italy is usually divided in a north, a centre, a south and the isles (so in 4 parts, not in 3 like many ppl think). Malta would become an isle, probably with a special status like Sicily and Sardinia (that means it would be indipendent in some fields, more similar to a federal region than to a normal region).

In any case Malta would never become a province of Sicily and neither a normal region like Marche, Tuscany, Abruzzo...

So, add the option: Malta with Italy but as a new region with a special status ;)

[Virtuous]

Sicily je Malta.

- Common Ancestry.

- Spoke Maltese (Though less Romanticized than Maltese).

- Same culture, slightly different.

- Same History (just remove Knights Hospitallier onwards).

:D

[Peyrol]

Let's create this:

:p:D:p:D

http://imageshack.us/a/img195/2398/italiapostunitariacopia.jpg

[Virtuous]

TERRONILANDIA

[Virtuous]

I'll always have mixed feelings about this, there is some sort of bond between us and our cousins from Sicily and Italy...however it would be a pity that we lost our badassness, you know, "Malta small island big balls" wouldn't make sense anymore :shrug:.

[Ira di Dio]

Quante cagate...

This would be a good question for MarceloBielsa, who is Sicilian. Pity he is not with us anymore.

[Corvus]

Malta deserves expansion. So I would approve it. But to teach the Sicilians proper English would be a great challenge :D

[Virtuous]

Quante cagate...

This would be a good question for MarceloBielsa, who is Sicilian. Pity he is not with us anymore.

Fammi il piacere di sapere a quale cagate ti stai referendo.

(apart from the fact that this is only abstract/"what if" fun.)

[Ira di Dio]

Fammi il piacere di sapere a quale cagate ti stai referendo.
Non ti preoccupare, penso che tu lo sappia :)

[Mortimer]

no it should stay italian.

edit: malta should join italy, maybe, if they like

[Virtuous]

Non ti preoccupare, penso che tu lo sappia :)

Sicilia je Malta? e' perche no?! :D

[Ira di Dio]

Sicilia je Malta? e' perche no?! :D
:) If it's their will... Then again there are no Sicilians here who can tell us.

[Virtuous]

:) If it's their will... Then again there are no Sicilians here who can tell us.

It would be nice if we had more land sure, but as I said this is all abstract and "what if" theory and only worth joking about, no real land-conflict/claim discussion :).

Italy will always be our cousin regardless of all this bs :D.

[Toretto]

La Sicilia con l'Italia, Malta con la Libia, caso chiuso

[Virtuous]

La Sicilia con l'Italia, Malta con la Libia, caso chiuso

he-he-he-he

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs5/4058581_o.gif

http://watersbroken.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/lampedusa.jpg

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2171/lampedusacartin1.png

[Toretto]

:D

[ioan assen]

First, I dont think they speak the same language.
I dont see the point of Sicily separating from the rich north and merging with poorer than northern Italy Malta.

[Virtuous]

First, I dont think they speak the same language.
I dont see the point of Sicily separating from the rich north and merging with poorer than northern Italy Malta.

Hahah, nice trolling :).

Economically we're doing much better than all other Southern Euro EU countries with Merkel always praising us and cluster close to the Northern EU Countries, but of course Malta is never brought into the statistics because envy kicks in.

[Peyrol]

Hahah, nice trolling :).

Economically we're doing much better than all other Southern Euro EU countries with Merkel always praising us and cluster close to the Northern Countries, but of course Malta is never brought into the statistics because envy kicks in.

Sorry Malta, but i sincerely don't think that you're richer than us (Piemonte is the northern italian region with the highest GDP per capita), Lombardia or Veneto...

[Virtuous]

Sorry Malta, but i sincerely don't think that you're richer than us (Piemonte is the northern italian region with the highest GDP per capita), Lombardia or Veneto...

What makes you think that? Statistically Malta is just behind Germany in unemployment rates for example, you should count whole Italy too.

[Sikeliot]

I don't care about the economy as much as culture within the context of this discussion.

[Peyrol]

What makes you think that? Statistically Malta is just behind Germany in unemployment rates for example, you should count whole Italy too.

No i shouldn't, because we're a semi-federal republic and if i live in Torino i work and spend money in Torino and not in Trieste or Agrigento.

[Virtuous]

No i shouldn't, because we're a semi-federal republic and if i live in Torino i work and spend money in Torino and not in Trieste or Agrigento.

Whatever your views about the separation of North and South might be, that person which includes "ass" in his username said the biggest cagata ever when he stated that Malta is poor. Coming from an Eastern European it's hilarious actually...

[Hochmeister]

It's good if Malta would join Southern Italy (and both them would join Greece :p)

[Peyrol]

Whatever your views about the separation of North and South be, that person which includes "ass" in his username said the biggest cagata ever when he stated that Malta is poor. Coming from an Eastern European it's hilarious actually...

I'm not saying that Malta is poor, never said this :)

[Gospodine]

I remember a leaked US State Department cable made public by Wikileaks that said if Calabria was not a part of Italy it would be a failed state.

I think the same categorization could be extended to Sicily.

[Virtuous]

I'm not saying that Malta is poor, never said this :)

We're cool bro.

[Peyrol]

I remember a leaked US State Department cable made public by Wikileaks that said if Calabria was not a part of Italy it would be a failed state.

I think the same categorization could be extended to Sicily.

Well, i don't need an US cable to know that some southern italian regions are in a heavy default. :laugh:

[ioan assen]

I don't care about the economy as much as culture within the context of this discussion.
Do you presently speak Maltease lang on Sicily? Because last I checked you speak Romance language related to ofical Italian unlike the Maltease who speak semitic lang... So how can you be in one state if you are not related, how you ll communicate? Plus why wouldnt Sicilians love to be part of Italy where almost everything we consider European originated? Of course Malta is also precious to Europe for resisting the Ottomans/Arabs and its glorious knights, but is it comparable to Rome? Actually which European city is comparable to Rome???????????? Dont think any city is...

[Virtuous]

Do you presently speak Maltease lang on Sicily? Because last I checked you speak Romance language related to ofical Italian unlike the Maltease who speak semitic lang... So how can you be in one state if you are not related, how you ll communicate? Plus why wouldnt Sicilians love to be part of Italy where almost everything we consider European originated? Of course Malta is also precious to Europe for resisting the Ottomans/Arabs and its glorious knights, but is it comparable to Rome? Actually which European city is comparable to Rome???????????? Dont think any city is...

I've posted enough information about my country and my people for you to go see, I'm not going to waste my time with: Either a troll or a retard like you, don't know which one of them.

[ioan assen]

Hahah, nice trolling :).

Economically we're doing much better than all other Southern Euro EU countries with Merkel always praising us and cluster close to the Northern EU Countries, but of course Malta is never brought into the statistics because envy kicks in.
Trolling???????????? Ok, I know you are doing fine, but is it comparable to Milano? Thought so.

[Peyrol]

Do you presently speak Maltease lang on Sicily? Because last I checked you speak Romance language related to ofical Italian unlike the Maltease who speak semitic lang... So how can you be in one state if you are not related, how you ll communicate? Plus why wouldnt Sicilians love to be part of Italy where almost everything we consider European originated? Of course Malta is also precious to Europe for resisting the Ottomans/Arabs and its glorious knights, but is it comparable to Rome? Actually which European city is comparable to Rome???????????? Dont think any city is...

Sicilian language isn't ''an italian dialect or italian related'', it's a 1000 years old independent romance language.

Maltese is the last remnant of the siculo-maghreb arab spoken in Sicilia before arabic expulsion and latinization of the island.

[Ira di Dio]

Do you presently speak Maltease lang on Sicily?
I'm quite sure the "you" that you are speaking to speaks English because he is, uh, American.

[Virtuous]

Trolling???????????? Ok, I know you are doing fine, but is it comparable to Milano? Thought so.

Heheh, if we're comparable to Germany ECONOMICALLY, why not?

[ioan assen]

I've posted enough information about my country and my people for you to go see, I'm not going to waste my time with: Either a troll or a retard like you, don't know which one of them.

:picard1:whats your fucking problem? The questions I ask are reasonable. I wonder who will want to separate from the craddle of Europe to join Malta? Please refrain from calling me names. I m not here to put up with your childish behaviour. If you cant discuss please get out.:picard2:

[Sikeliot]

Do you presently speak Maltease lang on Sicily? Because last I checked you speak Romance language related to ofical Italian unlike the Maltease who speak semitic lang... So how can you be in one state if you are not related, how you ll communicate? Plus why wouldnt Sicilians love to be part of Italy where almost everything we consider European originated? Of course Malta is also precious to Europe for resisting the Ottomans/Arabs and its glorious knights, but is it comparable to Rome? Actually which European city is comparable to Rome???????????? Dont think any city is...

Because original Sicilian culture and history is shared with Malta, and the cultural heritage of the island is not shared to the same extent with Lombardy, Piedmont, Veneto, or Tuscany. Plus that the Maltese language originated in Sicily.

[Gospodine]

Well, i don't need an US cable to know that some southern italian regions are in a heavy default. :laugh:

There's a big difference between economic deficits and being a failed state.

America is not a failed state despite being 16 trillion dollars in debt.

Calabria would be a failed state mainly due to the pervasive influence of 'Ndrangheta and ultra-corrupt officials.

[Virtuous]

Sicilian language isn't ''an italian dialect or italian related'', it's a 1000 years old independent romance language.

Maltese is the last remnant of the siculo-maghreb arab spoken in Sicilia before arabic expulsion and latinization of the island.

However, lets not forget that 50-60% of Maltese vocabulary is as a matter of fact Romance, the only thing is that the function words are mostly Siculo-Arabic whilst sentences which require more complex words are mostly written in Romance.

Maltese deserves to be a language for itself, NOT to be classified with plain Arab.

[ioan assen]

Sicilian language isn't ''an italian dialect or italian related'', it's a 1000 years old independent romance language.

Maltese is the last remnant of the siculo-maghreb arab spoken in Sicilia before arabic expulsion and latinization of the island.
well they are still speaking different lang as I thought: then why should they unite?????????

[Peyrol]

There's a big difference between economic deficits and being a failed state.

America is not a failed state despite being 16 trillion dollars in debt.

Calabria would be a failed state mainly due to the pervasive influence of 'Ndrangheta and ultra-corrupt officials.

That's why 1/3 of Torino's people are second/third generation calabrese.

[Virtuous]

well they are still speaking different lang as I thought: then why should they unite?????????

Well, props to you for turning this irrelevant (not to be seriously discussed) thread into a shitstorm, dumbass/scemo.

[Ira di Dio]

Heheh, if we're comparable to Germany ECONOMICALLY, why not?
Maybe someone who's got the tabs on the average income in Malta and in Lombardy (not I) could answer this question.

[ioan assen]

Because original Sicilian culture and history is shared with Malta, and the cultural heritage of the island is not shared to the same extent with Lombardy, Piedmont, Veneto, or Tuscany. Plus that the Maltese language originated in Sicily.
Ok I get that, but still presently they speak totally different languages from different language families. So we are not talking about the same ethnicity devided into two states. So what would be the cohesion between the two people? Culture? Is it that similar?

[Peyrol]

well they are still speaking different lang as I thought: then why should they unite?????????

They didn't joined us, they were conquered, is a bit different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedition_of_the_Thousand

http://www.casuzze.it/files/LA-SPEDIZIONE-DEI-MILLE.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Ok I get that, but still presently they speak totally different languages from different language families. So we are not talking about the same ethnicity devided into two states. So what would be the cohesion between the two people? Culture? Is it that similar?

Apart from language, the culture is very similar.

[Ira di Dio]

They didn't joined us, they were conquered, is a bit different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedition_of_the_Thousand

http://www.casuzze.it/files/LA-SPEDIZIONE-DEI-MILLE.jpg
Yup. Our forefathers did it for the kick of seeing the future generations of northern Italians being trolled in anthroboards. I'm joking, I find the Calabrese + Sicilians very funny actually. ;)

[ioan assen]

Well, props to you for turning this irrelevant (not to be seriously discussed) thread into a shitstorm, dumbass/scemo.
you deffinately have some major anger problems. seek help. Immediately. No time to waste. Refrain from calling me names.

[Prince Carlo]

They didn't joined us, they were conquered, is a bit different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedition_of_the_Thousand

http://www.casuzze.it/files/LA-SPEDIZIONE-DEI-MILLE.jpg

According to Neoborbonic crackheads Northern Italians killed more than 1 milion of Neapolitans in about 4 years of war. :picard1::picard2:

[Peyrol]

Accordind to Neoborbonic crackheads Northern Italians killed more than 1 milion of Neapolitans in about 4 years of war. :picard1::picard2:

1 million neapolitans? :lol:

And where they found them, in a magician's hat?


I agree about some looting/plundering and summary executions by piemontese army, but 1 million killed...is an exageration.

[Virtuous]

Maybe someone who's got the tabs on the average income in Malta and in Lombardy (not I) could answer this question.

Unemployment Rate


http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/graph.do;jsessionid=9ea7d07d30e68d444ab796c945e089 e9e1818ffdca94.e34OaN8PchaTby0Lc3aNchuMbNiNe0?tab= graph&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=teilm020&toolbox=type

Income

http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/submitViewTableAction.do?dvsc=9

[Virtuous]

you deffinately have some major anger problems. seek help. Immediately. No time to waste. Refrain from calling me names.

Well, sorry, don't be pissed off...Bulgaria is very poor compared to poor Malta.

But don't get angry at me :D.

[Linet]

Our Language, our History, our Identity, our Nationality..

is Maltese.

I think this answer says all there is to be said....:rose:
Anything else is spam :blah:

[Virtuous]

1 million neapolitans? :lol:

And where they found them, in a magician's hat?


I agree about some looting/plundering and summary executions by piemontese army, but 1 million killed...is an exageration.

N.Italians = Stalinists in denial! :eek: :D

[Ibericus]

Sicilians are italians

[Peyrol]

Yup. Our forefathers did it for the kick of seeing the future generations of northern Italians being trolled in anthroboards. I'm joking, I find the Calabrese + Sicilians very funny actually. ;)

Original Camillo Cavour and Paolo Thaon du Reveil ''unitary idea'' was to stop the piemonteis conquest in central Italy...the original plain was the dismemberment of Vatican and the division of Italy in two: Kingdom of North owned by ''Mison'' Savoia and the Kingdom of South owned by House Borbone-Due Sicilie...the plain failed because the ultra-catholic neapolitan king Francesco II of Two Sicilies didn't accepted the possibility that some chuch lands would become part of his state.
Poor Francischiello. :p

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians are italians

Do you believe Catalans and Basques are Spanish?

[Ibericus]

Do you believe Catalans and Basques are Spanish?
Of course.

[Linet]

So what Sicilians are? Maltese? :chin:

[Virtuous]

http://www.di-ve.com/pages/tvm-streaming here, listen some Maltese Politics in the meantime.

[Sikeliot]

So what Sicilians are? Maltese? :chin:

Not in any way trying to disrespect the sovereignty of the Maltese people, but my argument is that Maltese are Sicilians who better preserved their culture, whereas Sicilians lost much of their culture that has been replaced by elements from the mainland that do not belong there.

[ioan assen]

Well, sorry, don't be pissed off...Bulgaria is very poor compared to poor Malta.
But don't get angry at me :D.
I m not angry at you. Obviously you are angry. I dont know at me (cause there is no reason) or you are projecting your anger at me :picard2:. Anyhow the discussing is not about Bulgaria and yes its poorer than Malta and Italy. I never stated the opposite.
I was interested in the discussion because I knew that Sicilians and Maltease are speaking different languages and I was wondering why would they want to unite. If they were the same people I could get it, but they are not. Maybe culturally they are too similar. This could be unifying factor, but I wonder if its enough for a common state. Also I have always loved Italy and Rome is my fav city so I was interested why Sicilians would want to secede Italy to join Malta. Malta is nowhere as famous as Italy.

[Peyrol]

Btw some neoborbonic claims are true...there is a curious anecdote about piemontese conquest of southern Italy: the first two sicilian deputates to Torino's senate (Torino was the capital of Piemont and for some years first italian capital city), one of them was Francesco Crispi, spoken standard italian in front of 200 peimonteis noblemen...no-one of them understood the new language (standard italian), and the piemonteis deputate Felis Rignon mistook the language for...english :lol:

This is indicative how culturally this country was ''united''.

[Linet]

Not in any way trying to disrespect the sovereignty of the Maltese people, but my argument is that Maltese are Sicilians who better preserved their culture, whereas Sicilians lost much of their culture that has been replaced by elements from the mainland that do not belong there.

Sikeliot....with all the respect....

:loco:

[Sikeliot]

I m not angry at you. Obviously you are angry. I dont know at me (cause there is no reason) or you are projecting your anger at me :picard2:. Anyhow the discussing is not about Bulgaria and yes its poorer than Malta and Italy. I never stated the opposite.
I was interested in the discussion because I knew that Sicilians and Maltease are speaking different languages and I was wondering why would they want to unite. If they were the same people I could get it, but they are not. Maybe culturally they are too similar. This could be unifying factor, but I wonder if its enough for a common state. Also I have always loved Italy and Rome is my fav city so I was interested why Sicilians would want to secede Italy to join Malta. Malta is nowhere as famous as Italy.

If you can demonstrate to me ways that Sicily is culturally closer to even one region of Italy that is north of Campania than they are to Malta, I may understand your perspective, eventually.

[Virtuous]

I m not angry at you. Obviously you are angry. I dont know at me (cause there is no reason) or you are projecting your anger at me :picard2:. Anyhow the discussing is not about Bulgaria and yes its poorer than Malta and Italy. I never stated the opposite.
I was interested in the discussion because I knew that Sicilians and Maltease are speaking different languages and I was wondering why would they want to unite. If they were the same people I could get it, but they are not. Maybe culturally they are too similar. This could be unifying factor, but I wonder if its enough for a common state. Also I have always loved Italy and Rome is my fav city so I was interested why Sicilians would want to secede Italy to join Malta. Malta is nowhere as famous as Italy.

Malta is no more famous than Italy, no shit Sherlock, but for being one god damn tiny Island we sure make noise in Europe :laugh:.

Of course, Italy is great, of course the Roman Empire was great, of Course Italy is more famous, powerful, awesome and so on, but that doesn't diminish our Maltese National pride in any way.

If you really didn't intend to start this shitstorm in the first place you shouldn't have stated the false by saying Malta is poor.

Also, Secede Italy to Malta? What are you on about, son? Who in his right mind would ever say that? We're talking about Sicily and it's past legacy to Malta and the Maltese language/DNA, nothing else.

[ioan assen]

Sorry I meant Sicily sececion, not Italy of course.
And I didnt say Malta was poor. I said Malta was POORER than Northern Italy.
And Malta is famous, but not as much as Italy and most importantly Rome.

[Peyrol]

Sikeliot....with all the respect....

:loco:

A lot of sicilians from Sicily consider themselves an ethnicity.
One of the slogans of the recent anti Mario Monti's government manifestations in Palermo was ''Sicilia nazziuni'' (Sicilia is a state/nation).

They've their unique culture...just listen this...one is from here (Valle di Susa, Piemont) and the other one from Siracusa...do these songs sound the same to you?

QNwC8eZ7brE

uPcUVvVAtq0

[ioan assen]

If you can demonstrate to me ways that Sicily is culturally closer to even one region of Italy that is north of Campania than they are to Malta, I may understand your perspective, eventually.
Well for one you speak language from the same language group. Unfortunately I havent been to Sicily so I cant say if its that different to other parts of Italy where I ve been to. All I know for Sicily is that you have amazing nature and that there is alot of Greek influences there, including remains from Greek temples...

[Virtuous]

Sikeliot....with all the respect....

:loco:

What makes you think he's crazy? Sicilians are basically Maltese, if it wasn't for Italian influence on them :shrug: :D

We speak about Sicilians being Romanticized...though, even Maltese language is VERY Romanticized so it's not as preserved as Sikeliot thinks :P.

[Linet]

A lot of sicilians from Sicily consider themselves an ethnicity.
One of the slogans of the recent anti Mario Monti's government in Palermo was ''Sicilia nazziuni'' (Sicilia is a state/nation).

They've their unique culture...just listen this...one is from here (Valle di Susa, Piemont) and the other one from Siracusa...do these songs sound the same to you?


Yes, but its still stupid to declair a separate nation....:fcrazy:
Greek blood and Italian language...past common with Greece at first and then common with the rest of Italy....how they are different?
They can define themselves either as Greeks either as Italians but as somethign else? As what? There is not any separate nationality called sicilian, not as far as they are the same with another nation and part of it...:grouphug:
They like it or not, they are what they are...

[Virtuous]

Yes, but its still stupid to declair a separate nation....:fcrazy:
Greek blood and Italian language...past common with Greece at first and then common with the rest of Italy....how they are different?
They can define themselves either as Greeks either as Italians but as somethign else? As what? There is not any separate nationality called sicilian, not as far as they are the same with another nation and part of it...:grouphug:
They like it or not, they are what they are...

MALTESE!!! :D

[Linet]

MALTESE!!! :D

MALTESE :cheer_icoon:

[Prince Carlo]

N.Italians = Stalinists in denial! :eek: :D

The North Italians actually killed and raped a lot, burnt whole towns too, but a million of deaths is pure propaganda.

[Peyrol]

Yes, but its still stupid to declair a separate nation....:fcrazy:
Greek blood and Italian language...past common with Greece at first and then common with the rest of Italy....how they are different?
They can define themselves either as Greeks either as Italians but as somethign else? As what? There is not any separate nationality called sicilian, not as far as they are the same with another nation and part of it...:grouphug:
They like it or not, they are what they are...

I sincerely don't like this kind of cultural discrimination/relativism against us northern italians.
We cisalpines have our unique and millenarian culture, my city was for 1000 years capital of this 1000 years lasted state:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Engl_penetrazione.gif/200px-Engl_penetrazione.gif



...so, why i've to denigrate or, even worse, negate the existence of my culture into something relative?


...and if they feel a separate people, as they are, who are you (or i) to negate theyr feelings?

[Virtuous]

I sincerely don't like this kind of cultural discrimination/relativism against us northern italians.
We cisalpines have our unique and millenarian culture, my city was for 1000 years capital of this 1000 years lasted state:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Engl_penetrazione.gif/200px-Engl_penetrazione.gif



...so, why i've to denigrate or, even worse, negate the existence of my culture into something relative?


...and if they feel a separate people, as they are, who are you (or i) to negate theyr feelings?

No objections, N.Italy is neat, hard working, civilized and rich.

(however, if the South has any quality it's surely the warm/down to earth character)

[Sikeliot]

And I also think that a Sicilian or Calabrese or any other region considering themselves a separate ethnicity is not an insult to other Italians but rather cultural pride.

[Peyrol]

And I also think that a Sicilian or Calabrese or any other region considering themselves a separate ethnicity is not an insult to other Italians but rather cultural pride.

...and a third generation calabrese born and grown in Torino what is?
This is a good question...

[Toretto]

And I also think that a Sicilian or Calabrese or any other region considering themselves a separate ethnicity is not an insult to other Italians but rather cultural pride.

no, calabrese considering themselves southerner in primis and italian... also sicilian but sicilian 10% considering themselves a nation a part

[Linet]

I sincerely don't like this kind of cultural discrimination/relativism against us northern italians.
We cisalpines have our unique and millenarian culture, my city was for 1000 years capital of this 1000 years lasted state:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Engl_penetrazione.gif/200px-Engl_penetrazione.gif



...so, why i've to denigrate or, even worse, negate the existence of my culture into something relative?


...and if they feel a separate people, as they are, who are you (or i) to negate theyr feelings?

I think one must respect his roots and history... Sicilians were the luckier of all Greeks... being part of a country :fdancing: like Italy is a blessing, check what happened to their borthers at Pontus ....:flynch:
I think that by asking independance they spit on both their Greek blood and their Italian bonds...:thumb down:
Also i have to clarify something, they cant become a different nation :no:, they can become a different state ...those are 2 very different things.

[Gospodine]

Sikeliot, would you be in favour of Sicilians speaking Maltese?

[Sikeliot]

I think one must respect his roots and history... Sicilians were the luckier of all Greeks... being part of a country :fdancing: like Italy is a blessing, check what happened to their borthers at Pontus ....:flynch:

Well, yes. But Pontic Greeks are still "Greek".. Sicilians lost that element of the identity. So in one way yes, in another way no.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot, would you be in favour of Sicilians speaking Maltese?

Yes.

[Virtuous]

I am in favour of Europe speaking Latin!

Hail Norman Lowell! Hail IMPERIVM EVROPA!

:D

[Peyrol]

I think one must respect his roots and history... Sicilians were the luckier of all Greeks... being part of a country :fdancing: like Italy is a blessing, check what happened to their borthers at Pontus ....:flynch:
I think that by asking independance they spit on both their Greek blood and their Italian bonds...:thumb down:
Also i have to clarify something, they cant become a different nation :no:, they can become a different state ...those are 2 very different things.

They're yet a Nation, even if some of them don't think so (but a lot of them yes).

Just tell me this: why an alpine dynasty like House Savoia conquered the island? What savoyardes knew about the plurimillenarial and rich sicilian history? Nothing.

A lot of people considered the piemontese annexation of the island the point of not return...they started to emigrate, millions of them emigrated after the ''Spedizione dei Mille''...why they didn't emigrated, or emigrated a few during Borbonic rule? Simply, they had a better quality of life.

I'm not some kind of ''separatis'', but only a realist.

[Gospodine]

I am in favour of Europe speaking Pig Latin!

Fixed.

[Linet]

They're yet a Nation, even if some of them don't think so (but a lot of them yes).

Just tell me this: why an alpine dynasty like House Savoia conquered the island? What savoyardes knew about the plurimillenarial and rich sicilian history? Nothing.

A lot of people considered the piemontese annexation of the island the point of not return...they started to emigrate, millions of them emigrated after the ''Spedizione dei Mille''...why they didn't emigrated, or emigrated a few during Borbonic rule? Simply, they had a better quality of life.

I'm not some kind of ''separatis'', but only a realist.

Well sorry, since one has my blood, he is my kind. Since Sicilians are of Greek blood, they are Greeks. If i go to USA and marry there and my kid doesnt speak Greek, he will be less Greek? :noidea:
They lost the language and that even happened recently. Culture? Every island in the Aegean has its own culture and traditions and we love that, we promote it and we consider each one as a jewel for Greece :rose:

Lets say you get some labradors and you take them on top of the mountain of an island that is inhabited only of Boxers (the dog :dog00000:) . Those labradors dont have much contact with the rest of the island so even if they mix, the % is very small. After 500 years if you go to the island....the labradors will still be labradors...the most of them will look like their first ancestors and few may have abot of other characteristics but still remaining labradors mostly. With the same character, same intelligence, same body type and looks. They may be now part of the islands world but they wont be somethign else of what they were when they first came.
Sicilians are Greeks. I support them to be with Italy, Italy is now their country and their motherland. They shouldnt spit their past...
Thast my point of view.

[Peyrol]

Yes, i understand your point....but the ''Questione Meridionale'' is too complicated to be explained to a foreigner.

[Slycooper]

Well sorry, since one has my blood, he is my kind. Since Sicilians are of Greek blood, they are Greeks. If i go to USA and marry there and my kid doesnt speak Greek, he will be less Greek? :noidea:
They lost the language and that even happened recently. Culture? Every island in the Aegean has its own culture and traditions and we love that, we promote it and we consider each one as a jewel for Greece :rose:

Lets say you get some labradors and you take them on top of the mountain of an island that is inhabited only of Boxers (the dog :dog00000:) . Those labradors dont have much contact with the rest of the island so even if they mix, the % is very small. After 500 years if you go to the island....the labradors will still be labradors...the most of them will look like their first ancestors and few may have abot of other characteristics but still remaining labradors mostly. With the same character, same intelligence, same body type and looks. They may be now part of the islands world but they wont be somethign else of what they were when they first came.
Sicilians are Greeks. I support them to be with Italy, Italy is now their country and their motherland. They shouldnt spit their past...
Thast my point of view.

Those Labradors would be boxers.

[Linet]

Those Labradors would be boxers.

In what way? Genetically?

South Italians look like Greeks :naughty2: mostly and not like the rest of Italians :grouphug:.

Cutlurally?

Of course :thumb001:. They speak Italian and they have inherited both worlds. In that they are lucky to have compined very good elements from 2 amazing civilisations :old .

[Peyrol]

In what way? Genetically?

South Italians look like Greeks :naughty2: mostly and not like the rest of Italians :grouphug:.

Cutlurally?

Of course :thumb001:. They speak Italian and they have inherited both worlds. In that they are lucky to have compined very good elements from 2 amazing civilisations :old .

Greek was the main language of most of Southern Italy until 1500.

[Slycooper]

In what way? Genetically?

South Italians look like Greeks :naughty2: mostly and not like the rest of Italians :grouphug:.

Cutlurally?

Of course :thumb001:. They speak Italian and they have inherited both worlds. In that they are lucky to have compined very good elements from 2 amazing civilisations :old .

You said if Labs go somewhere were only Boxers live they would still be labs. After 500 years there would be no Lab blood left. Actually after only about 50 years.

[Virtuous]

Well sorry, since one has my blood, he is my kind. Since Sicilians are of Greek blood, they are Greeks. If i go to USA and marry there and my kid doesnt speak Greek, he will be less Greek? :noidea:
They lost the language and that even happened recently. Culture? Every island in the Aegean has its own culture and traditions and we love that, we promote it and we consider each one as a jewel for Greece :rose:

Lets say you get some labradors and you take them on top of the mountain of an island that is inhabited only of Boxers (the dog :dog00000:) . Those labradors dont have much contact with the rest of the island so even if they mix, the % is very small. After 500 years if you go to the island....the labradors will still be labradors...the most of them will look like their first ancestors and few may have abot of other characteristics but still remaining labradors mostly. With the same character, same intelligence, same body type and looks. They may be now part of the islands world but they wont be somethign else of what they were when they first came.
Sicilians are Greeks. I support them to be with Italy, Italy is now their country and their motherland. They shouldnt spit their past...
Thast my point of view.

You keep on insisting don't you?

Sicilians are more related to Maltese people!

[Toretto]

Greek was the main language of most of Southern Italy until 1500.

yes i agree... also in apulia salento...

[Slycooper]

Sicillians speak Sicillian it's a diff language

[Sikeliot]

You keep on insisting don't you?

Sicilians are more related to Maltese people!

Well, yes. But Maltese people get most of their ancestry (probably 90%+) directly from Sicily. Sicilians probably get around that same amount of their ancestry directly from Greeks.

So Maltese people themselves are probably around ~80% Greek.

[Toretto]

Sicillians speak Sicillian it's a diff language

sicilian it's a southern dialect... very similar to my dialect from apulia salento...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Dialetti_parlati_in_Italia.png/500px-Dialetti_parlati_in_Italia.png

[Virtuous]

Well, yes. But Maltese people get most of their ancestry (probably 90%+) directly from Sicily. Sicilians probably get around that same amount of their ancestry directly from Greeks.

So Maltese people themselves are probably around ~80% Greek.

Basically :laugh:, but there's the language and cultural factor, that is what links them mostly to us...AND OTHERSlinet seem to ignore :whistle:.

[Linet]

Maltese darling....:naughty2:....

Embrace your greekness :laugh:

[Sikeliot]

I don't even care if Sicilians all start speaking just the Sicilian dialect.. just as long as they don't accept too much influence from standard Italian and reject it as an outside language that is not their own. And it's not Apulia's proper language, nor Calabria's. It's Tuscan.

[Virtuous]

Maltese darling....:naughty2:....

Embrace your greekness :laugh:

If we can arrange a date it's a deal :P.

(Phoenician negotiation skills kicking in).

[Peyrol]

sicilian it's a southern dialect... very similar to my dialect from apulia salento...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Dialetti_parlati_in_Italia.png/500px-Dialetti_parlati_in_Italia.png

It's a language, not a dialect.

Derived from latin with heavy greek influences, not from standard italian.

[Corvus]

I don't even care if Sicilians all start speaking just the Sicilian dialect.. just as long as they don't accept too much influence from standard Italian and reject it as an outside language that is not their own. And it's not Apulia's proper language, nor Calabria's. It's Tuscan.

What about the British influence. Do you totally ignore it.
Do you know how many Maltese have English names.

[Linet]

trunks...i said to be alone on a mountain with no much contact with the rest of the island... :chin:...read again please....
South Italy was the poor South....Northeners didnt have reason to go there :icon_no:
And also like all Greeks they were awfully stubborn to change or to mix...i can bet my head on that judging on how long they kept their language and because i know how we are.... :D

[Sikeliot]

What about the British influence. Do you totally ignore it.
Do you know how many Maltese have English names.

I think anything that happened after Norman influence ended in both Sicily and Malta should be rejected. Normans were important to both places but anything else after...

[Toretto]

It's a language, not a dialect.

Derived from latin with heavy greek influences, not from standard italian.

yes i agree... you know what I mean

[Linet]

Stubborness rule :rockon:

[Duke]

from where maltese got arab language, Saracens?

http://qed.princeton.edu/getfile.php?f=Viking,_Magyar_and_Saracen_Invasions _in_9th_and_10th_Century_Europe.jpg

http://britam.org/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

[Peyrol]

yes i agree... also in apulia salento...

Apulian greek sound very musical

abCf9OHTAmA

SqIhoshpotI

[Sikeliot]

Sicilian language also provided MOST of the vocabulary to the Maltese language, but not the grammatical structure or the other 1/3 or so of the words.

[Virtuous]

@ Nordlicht

Y-Dna haplogroups are found at the following frequencies in Malta : R1 (35.55% including 32.2% R1b) West/Central Euro, J (28.90% including 7.80% J1) Phoenician, I (12.20%) UBERMENSCH, E (11.10% including 8.9% E1b1b) North African Berids, F (6.70%) NO IDEA, K (4.40%) NEITHER, P (1.10%) NEITHER.

[Linet]

How can it derived from latin if they spoke Greek since 1500 :blink: ? Maybe from the Italian of 1500 with Greek influences? It sounds more corrent :icon_ask:

[Linet]

Apulian greek sound very musical


Oh...i told you before ....thast like you open the gates to byzantium :old...its so beautifull to hear them :rose:

[Virtuous]

from where maltese got arab language, Saracens?

Maltese is Maltese, not Arab. Fullfuckingstop.

[Slycooper]

Sicily was conquered by so many people.

[Duke]

Maltese is Maltese, not Arab. Fullfuckingstop.

i know its different :)

[Peyrol]

How can it derived from latin if they spoke Greek since 1500 :blink: ? Maybe from the Italian of 1500 with Greek influences? It sounds more corrent :icon_ask:


After neapolitan medieval conquest of the whole South (except Sicilia), neapolitan language replaced greek in Apulia, Basilicata (look the name...''the land of the King'') and Calabria.
In Sicilia greek was erased by moors.

This is the last remnant of italiot greek.


Apulian greek sound very musical

abCf9OHTAmA

SqIhoshpotI

[Toretto]

i agree perdu, in salento and in southern calabria

[Corvus]

I don`t know how names determine the genetic structure, but they offer a certain indication of ancestry
So I repost what I have once found about Maltese names:

Malta
Due to different cultures that had their impacts on the Maltese archipelago, various surnames are evident.
• Sicilian & Italian Surnames
Sicilian and Italian surnames are common due to the close vicinity to Malta. Examples include Bonello, Camilleri, Cauchi, Chetcuti, Dalli, Darmanin, Farrugia, Giglio, Gauci, Delicata, Licari, Magri, Rizzo, Schembri, Tabone, Troisi, Vassallo, etc.
• English Surnames
English surnames exist due to Malta forming a part of the British Empire in the 19th century and most of the 20th. Examples include Bickle, Bone, Haidon,'Harding, Harmsworth, Hogg, Atkins, Mattocks, Martin, Wallbank, Smith, Jones, Sixsmith, Woods, Turner, Henwood.
• Sicilian Semitic Surnames
Semitic surnames are common, due to the early presence of Eastern and Southern Mediterranean people in Malta. Examples include Sammut, Zammit, Said, Borg, Xuereb, Xerri, Grixti, Xriha, although the last three are also written in a Italianized form, i.e. Scerri, Griscti, Sciriha, due to Maltese being written in the Italian alphabet in the 19th century.
• Spanish Surnames
Spanish surnames exist too. One common Maltese name that appears to be Spanish in origin is Galdes and less common surnames are Enriquez, Herrera, Guzman, Inguanez, Carabez. A variant of Galdes exists and is Galdies, with only one family possessing it.
At first glance, another common Maltese surname that appears to be Spanish in origin is Calleja , though, the first recorded instance of the surname on Malta predates Spanish rule and was spelled Calleya in the 1200s[16]. Giovanni Francesco Abela, the father of Maltese history suspected the surname to be of Greek origin. It should also be noted that Calleja does appear in Sicily in Italy, two other forms of the name is Calleya and Callea—in fact is it not entirely unlikely the surname is of Italian/Sicilian origin and was exported to both Malta and Spain

• Greek Surnames
Such as Papagiorcopoulo, Dacoutros, Vasilopoulos, Vasilis, Trakosopoulos
• French Surnames
Such as Depuis, Montfort.
• German Surnames
Surnames from foreign countries from Middle Ages include German
Such as von Brockdorff, Maempel, Engerer, Hyzler, Poetsch, Schranz, Craus, Fenech,
• Jewish Surnames
The Jews have also left a relic of their presence on the island with the surnames of Abela, Ellul, Azzopardi and Cohen.
• Double Surnames
Some Maltese women, in order to preserve a rare surname from becoming extinct after marriage, add their maiden surname to their husband's. Sometimes, it becomes a sign of social status.
These include: Spiteri Maempel, Zammit Maempel, Spiteri-Gonzi, Fleri Soler, Mifsud-Bonnici, Sammut-Alessi, Sammut-Testaferrata, Samut-Tagliaferro, Cachia-Zammit, Caruana Curran, Vella-Maistre, Zarb Cousin, Fenech-Adami, Borg Olivier, Sant Fournier.
• Surnames showing places in Malta
The few original Maltese surnames are those which show places of origin, for example, Chircop (Kirkop), Lia (Lija), Balzan (Balzan), Valletta (Valletta), Sciberras (Xebb ir-Ras Hill, on which Valletta was built) and possibly Curmi from Qormi.
The village of Munxar, Gozo is characterised by the majority of its population having one from two surnames, either Curmi or de Brincat. In Gozo, the surnames Bajada and Farrugia are also common.
• Customs
Women take a man's surname upon marriage, and their name is written as: Maria Borg née Zammit in official documents, but only as Maria Borg in informal scenarios. However some celebrities retain their old name as a stage name. Generally children take the surname of their father, but some are given the name of their mother, either alone or combined to their father's.
The custom to address a family is to use the initial and surname of the male and refer also to the family. For example, if a letter is sent to a person named David Saliba and his family, one writes Mr. and Mrs. D. Saliba.

Except for the new surnames from foreign countries, and sometimes the long, combined and rare ones, generally the Maltese people do not give a lot of importance to the origins of their surnames, and cohabit hand in hand.

[Peyrol]

I wish the people would be interested about northern Italy as they're interested about the South :(

We're ignored. :(

[Slycooper]

I whish the people would be interested about northern Italy as they're interested about the South :(

We're ignored. :(

you guys are also a lot richer.

[Linet]

I whish the people would be interested about northern Italy as they're interested about the South :(

We're ignored. :(

Sorry Perdu, you are cute :eyes...but Southerners have our sexyness :smokin:...you have to deal with it :icon_wink:

[Sikeliot]

I wish the people would be interested about northern Italy as they're interested about the South :(

We're ignored. :(

You have less poverty. Consider yourself lucky :lol: :D

[Slycooper]

Sicily has been neglected since Italian unification. So seperation is not crazy.

[Linet]

I cant restrain myself any more :D

0fVwPd89XAg

[Virtuous]

I whish the people would be interested about northern Italy as they're interested about the South :(

We're ignored. :(

If Malta can be famous, you can succeed, too! :cool:

[Peyrol]

I cant restrain myself any more :D

0fVwPd89XAg


This is better...even this music (a ''taranta'' from Basilicata) sound very greek

JEoNmdVmWoI

[Toretto]

kallipolis! my city :D

[Linet]

Ooooh come on....:fdancing:
Perdu you really know how to make my day....:joy:

[Corvus]

So lets tear Italy apart :D

North: partially to Swiss, partially to Austria
Central: Vatican
South: Greece

[Linet]

Kallipolis? :eyes
Kalos+polis= beautifull city :rose2:

[Peyrol]

So lets tear Italy apart :D

North: partially to Swiss, partially to Austria
Central: Vatican
South: Greece

Piemont-Savoie: une peuple, un histoire, un avenir....rien a inventèr! :cool:

[Toretto]

So lets tear Italy apart :D

North: partially to Swiss, partially to Austria
Central: Vatican
South: Greece

ahahaha :D

[Linet]

So lets tear Italy apart :D

North: partially to Swiss, partially to Austria
Central: Vatican
South: Greece

...:blink:...run to hide before they catch you :twitch:

[Virtuous]

Pfft, there are no better supporters than Maltese people, except for Lazio and Red Star Belgrade :laugh:.

[Peyrol]

See the greatness of Torino and Piemont here.
We're the best.

sBiL2VLPmFo

[Gospodine]

We all know Italy is shaped like a boot to kick Sicily's ass away into the sea.

[Linet]

See the greatness of Torino and Piemont here.
We're the best.

sBiL2VLPmFo

Ts ts ts :tsk:
The richman of the North came to show off :mad: ...
Lets catch him and boil him into rich Sicilian olive oil :dev

(....very very beautifull city and area :rose2:...impressive )

[Toretto]

We all know Italy is shaped like a boot to kick Sicily's ass away into the sea.

ahahahah! :D

[Virtuous]

See the greatness of Torino and Piemont here.
We're the best.

sBiL2VLPmFo

^

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lumssw5oGb1qbnggp.jpg


__________________________________________________ ______________________


liYtZzyPmz0

[Linet]

We all know Italy is shaped like a boot to kick Sicily's ass away into the sea.

jelly :cool:?

[Gospodine]

jelly :cool:?

It's an old joke Linet.

[Peyrol]

Pff...Italy is nothing without Piemont :p:cool::p

[Linet]

It's an old joke Linet.

:icon_ask: oh ...ok...
...but still, whoever made it was jelly :smokin:

[Virtuous]

Toretto stop liking Perduellio's posts! You are tr00 Southern.

[Linet]

Toretto stop liking Perduellio's posts! You are tr00 Southern.

Yes yes ....:cool:
He muct revolt :shakefist: against the rich North :wof:

[Toretto]

Toretto stop liking Perduellio's posts! You are tr00 Southern.

ahahahah

اللعنة عليك! :D

[Peyrol]

Toretto stop liking Perduellio's posts! You are tr00 Southern.

We have also the best music, here

Ur27Jn43Ges

[Virtuous]

ahahahah

اللعنة عليك! :D

I didn't say north african, dumbass.

-_-

[Virtuous]

We have also the best music, here

Ur27Jn43Ges

Tis nice indeed.

[Toretto]

I didn't say north african, dumbass.

-_-

sorry :( is my language, not to offend

[Linet]

Is this music traditional? :blink:
I heard all of it :icon_music:...its really one of the best things i have ever heard....:love0031:

[Virtuous]

sorry :( is my language, not to offend

OH...oh...well...*peter griffin* "Mi scusi!".

[Linet]

OH...oh...well...*peter griffin* "Mi scusi!".

:lol:
I use that all the time "mi scuuuusi" when i am with my best friend and i grab her all around :laugh:

[Peyrol]

Is this music traditional? :blink:
I heard all of it :icon_music:...its really one of the best things i have ever heard....:love0031:

So, just listen some piemonteis songs:

this is ubertorinese (from my city)

2Jr1AKbyMng

this one from the rural Piemont (city of Carmagnola)

2dQRl58x9Lo


...this from the Langhe Hills

0FrOjifhVFQ


and the lasts from the deep alpine valleys (Cuneo and turines valleys)

KojTG8sWGLI

b98-eLl1Es4

[Virtuous]

Question for Italians: Would you mistake these videos to be from Sicily/S.Italy firstly or N.Africa?

fQF5QqyIz1s

PGkAIAUlpGQ

Also, does Maltese sound any Arab to you?

0UXOURd4Zg0

[Gospodine]

Also, does Maltese sound any Arab to you?

I've heard Tunisians remark on how they can understand a good chunk of spoken Maltese.

[Virtuous]

I've heard Tunisians remark on how they can understand a good chunk of spoken Maltese.

Problem is that we can't understand them :shrug:

Like I said 50-60% of Vocab is Romance, however function words are mostly Siculo-Arabic.

[Linet]

...Ok, you made me fall in love with this songs :violin: ....i already add them in my favorites :hug2:

[Maleficent]

I voted for "Sicily should become independent from Italy and not unite with Malta."

I hear so many Sicilians saying,"I'm not Italian, I'm Sicilian," with an emphasis. They do it more so than any other Italians, from any other particular regions of Italy. There is most likely some sort of distinct cultural difference between Italy and Sicily.

To me, it doesn't really make any sense for Sicily to unite with Malta. What exactly are the cultural similarities between Sicily and Malta?! I'm not educated about this.....

[Gospodine]

Problem is that we can't understand them :shrug:

You could probably get some simple phrases in Maghrebi/Darija dialects but you wouldn't understand jack in Modern Standard Arabic.

I read in some linguistics forum about Tunisian tourists experiences in Malta and those that already spoke pretty good English found they could understand a lot of Maltese but couldn't really communicate unless it was with the older generation.

[Virtuous]

You could probably get some simple phrases in Maghrebi/Darija dialects but you wouldn't understand jack in Modern Standard Arabic.

I read in some linguistics forum about Tunisian tourists experiences in Malta and those that already spoke pretty good English found they could understand a lot of Maltese but couldn't really communicate unless it was with the older generation.

Except for that, we cannot and DON'T identify ourselves with Tunisians or any Arabs. Just to make it clear.

[Peyrol]

...Ok, you made me fall in love with this songs :violin: ....i already add them in my favorites :hug2:

Youre a cisalpine in denial, admit it.

[Virtuous]

I voted for "Sicily should become independent from Italy and not unite with Malta."

I hear so many Sicilians saying,"I'm not Italian, I'm Sicilian," with an emphasis. They do it more so than any other Italians, from any other particular regions of Italy. There is most likely some sort of distinct cultural difference between Italy and Sicily.

To me, it doesn't really make any sense for Sicily to unite with Malta. What exactly are the cultural similarities between Sicily and Malta?! I'm not educated about this.....

Hello sweetie, want to make out?

[Sikeliot]

Sicily should receive independence but not unite with Malta.

Malta = swarthy capital of Europe. It would damage Sicily's pure gene pool.

Sicilians (apart from Maltese since I have no numbers to back it up) are the most Southwest and West Asian influenced Europeans as it is.

[Prince Carlo]

Sicilians (apart from Maltese since I have no numbers to back it up) are the most Southwest and West Asian influenced Europeans as it is.

Greeks islanders have more than Sicilians. But the most SSA influenced Europeans are the Atlantic islanders.

[Linet]

Youre a cisalpine in denial, admit it.

oh shut up :grumpy:
I am in undercover mission now :ninja: ....dont reveal me :curtain:

[Sunphq]

Maltese culture is more like the original, "true" Sicilian culture..

No, it isn't. Stop spreading misinformation about Sicily. The Maltese identity formed during the Saracen period of Sicily, hence their Semitic tongue. Arabic was mostly spoken on the West of the Island, and was never the official language. So how is their culture "true" Sicilian?

And what is true Sicilian culture? Isn't it fitting for me whose heritage is from Milazzo that the language my family speaks is an Italic one, considering there were Italic tribes living in what is presently Milazzo before the Greeks??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausones

I liked alfieb, he was funny. But If he did suggest adopting the Maltese language, which I can't remember him ever writing that, I think it's a silly idea. It would make more sense to have the Sicilian language as the official tongue.

But why would Malta join anyway? They're doing fine. I don't feel any kinship with them also. I feel closer to Calabrians, as I actually have cousins from there, as well other parts of Southern Italy.


I agree for this reason. Much of Sicilian culture is now pan-Italian and originated on the mainland. Italian language is from Tuscany, for instance. The Maltese language originated in Sicily.

It's the same in all countries. Here in Britain, English, a Germanic tongue, is the most widely spoken language (in Ireland for example).

France as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_France

Should regions of France just break off and become independent countries? Adopting the Maltese language is just odd. It doesn't even make sense. It's just arbitrary. Why not adopt Albanian? Or Greek? Or Gallo-Italic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily).


I'd like to see Sicily join with Malta and become more culturally "Maltese", so it wouldn't be a cultural change so much as a restoration of what I consider the true Sicilian culture.

I don't think your wishes would be popular to any Sicilian.

But on topic, I would say no. Atm, I think Sicily needs Italy economically, so separating would be a bad decision. The idea of Sicily being its own country does somewhat appeal. But for superficial reasons. Really, I think, it would be insulting to the memory of those who fought for unification.

I definitely do not see becoming culturally "Maltese" as a return to form in anyway.

I mean seriously? The Maltese language is so alien. It just seems ridiculous that Sicilians would have to learn a new language, that really isn't anymore significant to them than Greek or Arabic would be. Why take a dialect that was formed in Saracen-ruled Sicily?

[Peyrol]

I voted for "Sicily should become independent from Italy and not unite with Malta."

I hear so many Sicilians saying,"I'm not Italian, I'm Sicilian," with an emphasis. They do it more so than any other Italians, from any other particular regions of Italy. There is most likely some sort of distinct cultural difference between Italy and Sicily.

To me, it doesn't really make any sense for Sicily to unite with Malta. What exactly are the cultural similarities between Sicily and Malta?! I'm not educated about this.....


Where have you exactly heard this?

Actually my fellow northerners are the only separatists politically represented in the Parliament and in the Senate. :laugh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Padania-Italia.png

[Linet]

So, just listen some piemonteis songs:

this is ubertorinese (from my city)

b98-eLl1Es4

What is this song saying? :blink:,,,sounds like they go at war :viking:

[Peyrol]

What is this song saying? :blink:,,,sounds like they go at war :viking:

It talk about a jealous husband who killed her little wife (Serena) and never was punished :(

[Virtuous]

I quite like this thread as it is now, N. Italian music and culture. It's useless to discuss about Malta cause we're too cool to handle and nothing mentioned will ever happen.

[Permafrost]

Sicily, given independence, 'tis probably Calderoli and Bossi's wet dream :D

But who will then give welfare to Sicilians? :p (Just jokin')

[Virtuous]

*Sicily turns to Malta*

MALTA HOW YOU SURVIVE ALONE ALL THE TIME?!?

Malta: "Well my dear friend, it goes something like this...once upon a time.."

Sicily: "FAK U MALTA, BETTER JOIN YOU. QUIT TEH LONG STORY"

[gregorius]

sicily should become an own souverine state with maffiosi controle over the island

[Peyrol]

I quite like this thread as it is now, N. Italian music and culture. It's useless to discuss about Malta cause we're too cool to handle and nothing mentioned will ever happen.

We have to build a Piemont-Maltese federation :p

[Virtuous]

We have to build a Piemont-Maltese federation :p

:D

tfslY_AvhLw

[Sikeliot]

Greeks islanders have more than Sicilians. But the most SSA influenced Europeans are the Atlantic islanders.

I'd need to see genetic data. I have only ever seen results for Cypriots and they are genetically mostly non-European but I haven't seen anything for Cretans, Rhodians etc.

Either way mainland Greeks are more Balkan and less West Asian.

[Sikeliot]

But on topic, I would say no. Atm, I think Sicily needs Italy economically, so separating would be a bad decision. The idea of Sicily being its own country does somewhat appeal. But for superficial reasons. Really, I think, it would be insulting to the memory of those who fought for unification.

I definitely do not see becoming culturally "Maltese" as a return to form in anyway.

I mean seriously? The Maltese language is so alien. It just seems ridiculous that Sicilians would have to learn a new language, that really isn't anymore significant to them than Greek or Arabic would be. Why take a dialect that was formed in Saracen-ruled Sicily?

I used to think the way to "return" to the true cultural heritage of the island was to think about re-adopting Greek and Greek Orthodoxy, but when I realized how impossible that was and how it would not benefit them to become part of modern Greece on the basis of ancient origins there -- and keep in mind I come from the perspective of having ancestry from the most Greek part of the island -- I then thought about looking to Malta.

I mean you know I've never wanted Sicily to be Italian. Never thought that's where they "belonged" but an identity forced on them, and have never felt much kinship with anyone north of Campania. Heck I don't consider Calabrese and Apulians real "Italians" either because to me Italian is northern and central Italian i.e. Italic.

And I'd bet you have some Greek ancestry too. Your family is from Messina based on the town you indicated, and that is the most Greek part of the island.

Don't get me wrong. I love everything Italian. :D I just don't feel like one, in true sense.

[Comte Arnau]

Malta is Maltese.

Sicily should be a sovereing island, with Sicilian as the official language. If anything, form a federation with the New Kingdom of Naples.

[Sikeliot]

Malta is Maltese.

Sicily should be a sovereing island, with Sicilian as the official language. If anything, form a federation with the New Kingdom of Naples.

Or Sicily, Calabria, Basilicata, and Apulia can form a new country.

[Comte Arnau]

Or Sicily, Calabria, Basilicata, and Apulia can form a new country.

Most of Calabria, the tip of the boot, for sure. :thumb001:

I see the Basilicata (or Lucania, a much better name for the territory) as rather part of the Neapolitan Kingdom. As for Apulia, it is a more complicated issue, I'd say.

[Sunphq]

I mean you know I've never wanted Sicily to be Italian. Never thought that's where they "belonged" but an identity forced on them, and have never felt much kinship with anyone north of Campania. Heck I don't consider Calabrese and Apulians real "Italians" either because to me Italian is northern and central Italian i.e. Italic.

Yeah I understand where you are coming from. But it just seems to be too unrealistic. There is also a sense of pride, especially in Milazzo, for Giuseppe Garibaldi. As some of the fighting for unification took place in Milazzo.

Another thing is - would the Mafia have too much control? Corruption is already a problem.

I actually like Calabrians the most, I admire their insular, rural culture.


And I'd bet you have some Greek ancestry too. Your family is from Messina based on the town you indicated, and that is the most Greek part of the island.

Yes, most likely. They would have spoke Greek and were once Orthodox too.

[MM81]

Original Camillo Cavour and Paolo Thaon du Reveil ''unitary idea'' was to stop the piemonteis conquest in central Italy...the original plain was the dismemberment of Vatican and the division of Italy in two: Kingdom of North owned by ''Mison'' Savoia and the Kingdom of South owned by House Borbone-Due Sicilie...the plain failed because the ultra-catholic neapolitan king Francesco II of Two Sicilies didn't accepted the possibility that some chuch lands would become part of his state.
Poor Francischiello. :p
There was another plan, too, that sounds uberscary nowadays to secular people like me: making a unitary Italy a federation of three states - Kingdom of Northern Italy (Piedmont+conquered Lombardy+former duchies of Parma, Modena and Tuscany+Romagna), Kingdom of Central Italy (the Papal States) and the Two Sicilies, with the Pope president of the federation.
By the way, Malta was under british rule, so simply untakeable (furthermore, the brits formally helped the Savoia's struggle to unite Italy).

[MM81]

I voted for "Sicily should become independent from Italy and not unite with Malta."

I hear so many Sicilians saying,"I'm not Italian, I'm Sicilian," with an emphasis. They do it more so than any other Italians, from any other particular regions of Italy. There is most likely some sort of distinct cultural difference between Italy and Sicily.

Well, they can say that, but it would be a real problem to deal with nowadays, since Sicily has a huge public debt, because of irresponsible politics done by their former governor, a man close to Berlusconi. I think Sicily would risk to bankrupt just a few month after the "declaration of independence"...

[Prince Carlo]

I actually like Calabrians the most, I admire their insular, rural culture.

Calabria is not an island.

[Ira di Dio]

Where have you exactly heard this?

Actually my fellow northerners are the only separatists politically represented in the Parliament and in the Senate. :laugh:
By now Lega Nord hasn't been a separatist party for a long time.

[Sunphq]

Calabria is not an island.

Are you mentally deficient?

Where did I say that Calabria is an Island? Insular in the sense of it being isolated.

[Virtuous]

You guys better open a thread for Italian separatist discussion.

[Ira di Dio]

...and a third generation calabrese born and grown in Torino what is?
Material for Sikeliot's "guess the region of origin" threads, maybe? :D


It's a language, not a dialect.
Every Italian dialect can be called a language. Why Sicilian yes and say, Milanese and akin no?

[Peyrol]

Are you mentally deficient?

Where did I say that Calabria is an Island? Insular in the sense of it being isolated.

Calabria is far from be isolate.



Material for Sikeliot's "guess the region of origin" threads, maybe? :D

It happened in the past...pictures from southern populated districts like Mirafiori or Falchera used for say ''see? Northern italians are swarthy'' (not by Sikeliot, but by other american-mideastern members.).

[Ira di Dio]

I wish the people would be interested about northern Italy as they're interested about the South :(

We're ignored. :(
I'm glad we are, if being on the receiving end of some people's "interest" means mainly to be trolled, as is the case of southern Italians here.

[Peyrol]

Every Italian dialect can be called a language. Why Sicilian yes and say, Milanese and akin no?

Because tecnically Milanese is a dialect of Insubric (western Lombard) language, with Laghèe, Brianzolo, Lecchese, Legnanese, etc.

[Sunphq]

Calabria is far from be isolate.

Calabria is hilly and rural. It's not exactly densely populated.

[Peyrol]

Calabria is hilly and rural. It's not exactly densely populated.

We're in 2013, not in 1920.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria#Infrastructure_and_Transport

[Sunphq]

We're in 2013, not in 1920.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria#Infrastructure_and_Transport

It's all relative my piedmontese friend. :D

[Peyrol]

It's all relative my piedmontese friend. :D

Even Piemont is ''rural'' by EU standards (2,2 million people in Torino's metro area and other 2,3 million in the rest of the region)...but we're far from being isolated.

[Ira di Dio]

Because tecnically Milanese is a dialect of Insubric (western Lombard) language, with Laghèe, Brianzolo, Lecchese, Legnanese, etc.
Yes, that is what I meant. Every Italian dialect (or cluster of dialects) can be a language.

[Sunphq]

Even Piemont is ''rural'' by EU standards (2,2 million people in Torino's metro area and other 2,3 million in the rest of the region)...but we're far from being isolated.

Alright keep your knickers on. You win. :) Cba to quibble.

[Peyrol]

Alright keep your knickers on. You win. :) Cba to quibble.

It isn't a matter of ''win or lose'', it's a matter of fact. Calabria was colonized from different people, even if the old stock calabrians are greeks.

But there are also some ''external'' influences...the surname Morabito is heavy diffused in Calabria...and it isn't exactly of european origin...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty

[Prince Carlo]

I know one Calabrian on Eurogenes and he cluster with Cretans.

[MM81]

Alright keep your knickers on. You win. :) Cba to quibble.
Why should every thread in this forum end in a fight? There's no reason for that. It's just having different opinions IMO. I don't like how this site evolved recently.

[MM81]

It isn't a matter of ''win or lose'', it's a matter of fact. Calabria was colonized from different people, even if the old stock calabrians are greeks.

But there are also some ''external'' influences...the surname Morabito is heavy diffused in Calabria...and it isn't exactly of european origin...

Morabito should derive from the word Murabìt, meaning "heremit" or "priest/preacher" in old arabic.
This is from Mijas (Andalucia), it tells the story of a muslim preacher (called morabito) reached by a crowd that asked for protecition.
http://www.giuseppemorabito.it/images/morabito002.jpg

[Prince Carlo]

Are you mentally deficient?

Where did I say that Calabria is an Island? Insular in the sense of it being isolated.

English is not my native language, so keep yourself calm or I will report you to the Mods.

[Sunphq]

it's a matter of fact. Calabria was colonized from different people, even if the old stock calabrians are greeks.

But there are also some ''external'' influences...the surname Morabito is heavy diffused in Calabria...and it isn't exactly of european origin...

That's a pretty cool fact, but this detour about Calabria is off-topic. And your post doesn't relate to either Calabria's population density or its hilly topography.

Was I talking about Calabria's ethnic composition or homogeneity?


*whisper* We're off-topic, don't answer.... ;)

[alfieb]

This thread was recently brought to my attention, and I thank you for creating it.

I don't (as of this moment) plan on sticking around, but since I seem to have inspired the topic, I suppose it's only right to contribute to the discussion.

The modern Region (then-Kingdom) of Sicily was (illegally) annexed to the Kingdom of Sardinia (without a valid casus belli or any historical claim to the lands) in 1861 in order to create the current Republic (previously Kingdom) of Italy, destroying the Sicilian monarchy that had been in place for eight centuries.

Even after 150 years of occupation, the Sicilian language is distinct from Italian

The Sicilian people are genetically distinct from Italians

The Sicilian people have a history that is separate from that of Italians, and was that way for the lion's share of Sicily's 10,000 years of being inhabited by human tribes.

Malta was founded by colonists from Sicily. The Maltese language is derived from a mixture of modern Sicilian and the Sicilian dialect of Medieval Arabic (in other words, Maltese is the only living variant of the "Siculo-arabic" language, which died out on the Sicilian mainland).

Malta was occupied by Greeks, Western Europeans, and Middle Easterners. All of these groups contributed to the Maltese genepool as they did in Sicily. However, the many centuries of Phoenician and Arab presence in Sicily and Malta was never there in Italy, even in the South. The spread of Siculo-Arabic ended at the Strait of Messina.

North African dogs were brought to Sicily, the Baleares, and Malta. Indeed, I own a "Cirneco dell'Etna", which is a native Sicilian dog closely related to the Maltese Pharaoh Hound. There is no such dog in Mainland Italy because North Africans never settled there.

I met a girl a few days ago. She saw me staring at her like a creep and walked over and asked me what I was looking at. I didn't know anything about her, but we spoke for a few minutes, and it turned out that her mother is Sicilian. Her father is an American of Northern European descent. From the first glance, I was able to tell she was one of "my people". Even with her dilluted genes. Of course I got her number, but that's besides the point.

I met a Maltese girl at a bar a few months ago. Her parents are from Malta. She speaks English, of course, but she doesn't speak Italian at all, and I don't speak Maltese, but we were able to communicate in Sicilian, even though they don't teach Sicilian in any schools... here in New York, in Malta, or in Sicily. Why? Because the Maltese language is a hybrid. They have both an Arabic term and a Romance (usually Sicilian) term for nearly every word in their vocabulary.

In summation, and I apologize for the wall of text, Sicilians and Maltese are the same people, separated only by politics. Italians and Sicilians, however, are different peoples forced together by politics. Malta was a County within the noble framework of Sicily from the 11th century until Napoleon conquered it. When he lost, the British stole the island, and kept it until independence.

Malta regained its independence because Britain was far away. Unfortunately for Sicily, we have not, because Rome is less than an hour away by plane, and they still have some irrational desire to build a bridge across the Strait of Messina to make Sicily more or less part of Italy, while it had never been before.

Not to mention, Britain was Protestant, while Italy, Sicily, and Malta are all Catholic. The truth is, before the Catholic Church sponsored a Crusade to take Sicily and Malta from the hands of Muslims in the 11th century, the native peoples of Sicily and Malta were actually Orthodox Christians.

The Sicilians would be wise to take advantage of Malta's independence and to join them, rather than try to secede and form a new country.

Malta is the most conservative, most Catholic country in Western Europe... and until a few months ago when they elected a gay communist to be President of Sicily, Sicily has had right-wing governments for nearly the entire democratic period post-WWII, whereas mainland Italy is a chaotic place where no party holds on to power for more than a few years.

Oh, right. I said I was going to finish. Thanks for reading.

[Prince Carlo]

Sicilian monarchy? LoL dude. Before the Northern Italian invasion you were just a province of the Kingdom of Two Sicilies which was ruled by a French dinasty from Naples. Learn some history.

[alfieb]

And the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was called that for what reason?

Answer: In 1282, the French king of Sicily, who had been installed by the Pope, was expelled by the Sicilian peasants, who wanted the real royal family, hated by the Vatican, to return. The king had moved the capital from Palermo to Naples, which was a no-no to the Sicilian nobles.

Since the French killed all of the males in the family, a daughter of the late King Frederick, who was married to the King of Aragon, became Queen.

The island of Sicily fell under Aragonese hands, while Naples remained under the Angevin French. Both sides called themselves Sicily, even though they were essentially two separate kingdoms. Eventually, several times, they would have the same monarch, but they would continue to be ruled separately until the 1800s, when "The King of Sicily and Naples" unified the two crowns to become "The King of the Two Sicilies".

But the right to rule Sicily itself came from descent from the first King of Sicily, the old Sicilian nobility still existed, etc.

1861 changed everything.

[Prince Carlo]

The french dinasty of Naples were the Borbons who had no connection at all with the previous Sicilian monarchy.

[alfieb]

You clearly know little of the 18th century or the War of the Spanish Succession.

The Spanish branch of the House of Habsburg (who had inherited Aragon and Sicily centuries before) died out. The last king considered his heir to be Philip of Bourbon, whose grandmother had been a Spanish Habsburg princess. All of Europe was on fire for several years. Eventually, the Bourbons won the war. The other side had a weaker claim to the throne of Sicily, so the "right" alliance won, and justice was served, from a Sicilian context.

After changing hands a few times, Philip gave Sicily and Naples to his son Charles. Years later, Charles went on to become the King of Spain, and gave Sicily and Naples to his son Ferdinand, who unified the crowns to create "Two Sicilies".

And, to be clear, the Bourbons were the second French dynasty in Sicily and Naples. The original were the House of Anjou, who, as I said previously, were invited to take over by the Pope who hated the Sicilian royal family. The Angevins never ruled over Sicily again after 1282.

[Peyrol]

Another american...

[Twistedmind]

You clearly know little of the 18th century or the War of the Spanish Succession.

The Spanish branch of the House of Habsburg (who had inherited Aragon and Sicily centuries before) died out. The last king considered his heir to be Philip of Bourbon, whose grandmother had been a Spanish Habsburg princess. All of Europe was on fire for several years. Eventually, the Bourbons won the war. The other side had a weaker claim to the throne of Sicily, so the "right" alliance won, and justice was served, from a Sicilian context.

After changing hands a few times, Philip gave Sicily and Naples to his son Charles. Years later, Charles went on to become the King of Spain, and gave Sicily and Naples to his son Ferdinand, who unified the crowns to create "Two Sicilies".

And, to be clear, the Bourbons were the second French dynasty in Sicily and Naples. The original were the House of Anjou, who, as I said previously, were invited to take over by the Pope who hated the Sicilian royal family. The Angevins never ruled over Sicily again after 1282.
Genealogical strictly speaking, Angevins and Bourbon are same family (Capetians)

[alfieb]

Genealogical strictly speaking, Angevins and Bourbon are same family (Capetians)

You're very right. They were both branches of the French royal family.

However, the (first) house of Anjou went extinct in the male line with... I think his name in English is rendered as Lancelot, but in Italy they call him Ladislao di Durazzo. The second House of Anjou went extinct with Charles IV of Anjou, nephew of Renato d'Angio, King of Naples. Both of these families died out in the 15th century. The Bourbons were (in the male line at least) very far removed from them, but still patrilineally descended from Hugh Capet. :)


Another american...

Yes and no. I was born here. I live here. My parents weren't. I'm an American citizen. I'm an Italian citizen. I've lived in Sicily. I've lived in Rome.

But please, destroy my argument rather than going the ad-hominem route. I'm not interested in whether or not you approve of American citizens discussing Italian issues.

[Twistedmind]

You're very right. They were both branches of the French royal family.

However, the (first) house of Anjou went extinct in the male line with... I think his name in English is rendered as Lancelot, but in Italy they call him Ladislao di Durazzo. The second House of Anjou went extinct with Charles IV of Anjou, nephew of Renato d'Angio, King of Naples. Both of these families died out in the 15th century. The Bourbons were (in the male line at least) very far removed from them, but still patrilineally descended from Hugh Capet. :)

I know. Acctaully, there was problem between older branch which went to rule Hungary, and younger which remained in Southern Italy.

Acctually, Bourbons and Angevins were not that far. Sain Louis was Brother of Charles, and father of Robert, count of Clermont, father of first duc de Burbon.

But, it is offtopic acctually. Sorry for derailing thread, it was not my intention. :)

[alfieb]

I know. Acctaully, there was problem between older branch which went to rule Hungary, and younger which remained in Southern Italy.

Acctually, Bourbons and Angevins were not that far. Sain Louis was Brother of Charles, and father of Robert, count of Clermont, father of first duc de Burbon.

But, it is offtopic acctually. Sorry for derailing thread, it was not my intention. :)

Sure, but when you're talking about Philip of Spain, he was far removed from his ancestor Louis the Saint (400+ years, I think). So I wouldn't call Louis' brother's offspring close relatives. :D

And the Second House of Anjou were a sub-branch of the House of Valois, unlike the First House of Anjou and the House of Bourbon who were direct branches of the House of Capet proper.

[Twistedmind]

Sure, but when you're talking about Philip of Spain, he was far removed from his ancestor Louis the Saint (400+ years, I think). So I wouldn't call Louis' brother's offspring close relatives.
Well, depends from point of time where you are looking for relation. :)
Of course, there is difference in time, but...



And the Second House of Anjou were a sub-branch of the House of Valois, unlike the First House of Anjou and the House of Bourbon who were direct branches of the House of Capet proper.

I meant on Hungarian Angevines, which were branch of Neapolitan/Sicilian ones. :)