The Cyrilic alphabet. Bulgarian or not?

[Archduke]

The Cyrillic script was created in the First Bulgarian Empire[9] and is derived from the Greek uncial script letters, augmented by ligatures and consonants from the older Glagolitic alphabet for sounds not found in Greek. Tradition holds that Cyrillic and Glagolitic were formalized either by the two Greek brothers born in Thessaloniki, Saints Cyril and Methodius who brought Christianity to the southern Slavs, or by their disciples.[10][11][12][13] Paul Cubberley posits that while Cyril may have codified and expanded Glagolitic, it was his students in the First Bulgarian Empire that developed Cyrillic from the Greek letters in the 890s as a more suitable script for church books.[9] Later Cyrillic spread among other Slavic peoples: Russians, Serbs and others, as well as among non-Slavic Vlachs and Moldavians.
Cyrillic and Glagolitic were used for the Church Slavonic language, especially the Old Church Slavonic variant. Hence expressions such as "И is the tenth Cyrillic letter" typically refer to the order of the Church Slavonic alphabet; not every Cyrillic alphabet uses every letter available in the script.

The Cyrillic script came to dominate Glagolitic in the 12th century. The literature produced in the Old Bulgarian language soon spread north and became the lingua franca of the Balkans and Eastern Europe, where it came to also be known as Old Church Slavonic.

I would add that the Cyrilic alphabet has influences from the Bulgar runic symbols.

The Bulgar runic symbols:

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt347/lantonov/Bulgar_runic_letters-1.png

The people who use Cyrilic will notice that letters such as Б, Ж, З, У, Ф, Ш, Ъ come from the Bulgars.


Discuss. :coffee:

[Methmatician]

Nope, it's Vinčan.

[Virtuous]

Slavic>>>Greek>>>Phoenician.

[Archduke]

Nope, it's Vinčan.

Protect yourself with facts.

[Twistedmind]

Bulgarians (lets say that way) adapted Greek Maiuscule for use of Old Church Slavonic. Person who do not know OCS or Koine Greek could not ditinguish Slavic and Greek Icons, Frescos or Mosaics.

Ш is from Glagolitic, as you could see. And verry similar or same forms could be find in Coptic, Aramiac, and Ethiopean alphabets. (ሠ, ש, ϣ).
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PE_Nv2-vNrU/T_nkKpvyMWI/AAAAAAAACdY/im6TOw_FvKE/s1600/Glagolitic_alphabet.png

Ъ is modification of Glagolitic http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Glagolitic_on.svg/20px-Glagolitic_on.svg.png

Lol at Ф, have you ever saw Greek alphabet, it is same even today. :rotfl2
Same with У (wariation of Y) and З (taken directly from medieval Greek Maiusculae)

Б is just variation of В (two verry similar sounds are used for them)

[Archduke]

Bulgarians (lets say that way) adapted Greek Maiuscule for use of Old Church Slavonic.

So you agree that Bulgarians invented it.

Thanks.

[Twistedmind]

Konstantin of Preslav adopted it, and he was Bulgarian. :) I am allways for hystorical truth.

[Turkophagos]

It's a greek alphabet, like the standard greek and the latin (chalkidean) one.


The least you Barbarians can do is to be grateful to your Greek masters.

[Archduke]

It's a greek alphabet, like the standard greek and the latin (chalkidean) one.


The least you Barbarians can do is to be grateful to your Greek masters.

We can give you taxes for using it if you want. :bored:

[Twistedmind]

It's a greek alphabet, like the standard greek and the latin (chalkidean) one. The least you Barbarians can do is to be grateful to your Greek masters.

Byzantine writers stoped to call Slavs Barbarians 1000 years ago. Comon, we are best friends evah after all :thumb001:

[Turkophagos]

We can give you taxes for using it if you want. :bored:

All the money of the world wouldn't be enough to pay off what you have given. Just be minimum grateful by aknowledging the origins of "your" alphabet.


Byzantine writers stoped to call Slavs Barbarians 1000 years ago. Comon, we are best friends evah after all :thumb001:

Barbarian = Non-Greek. I mentioned latin alphabet too, I wasn't reffering to Slavs alone.

[Hochmeister]

The Cyrilic alphabet. Bulgarian or not?

http://data.whicdn.com/images/38600179/5fd68d2c8b25d7126df6f94833d893d5.600x400_large.nop ad

[morski]

Of course it's Bulgarian, it's not even debatable.

[Hevo]

It's greek.

[Midori]

No.

[morski]

It's greek.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhob8igiHY1qhst85o1_400.gif

http://blog.accentschool.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Early_cyrillic_alphabet1-300x284.png

http://lifedaily.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/1b985-euro-banknote.jpg

Can't believe how many butthurt envious Slavic "brothers" there are out there.

[Twistedmind]

What is problem to say it is Greek script adopted for Slavic languages by effort of one Bulgarian? Common, we Serbs do not claim alternatig current as Serbian invention, but Nikola Tesla's.

[morski]

What is problem to say it is Greek script adopted for Slavic languages by effort of one Bulgarian? Common, we Serbs do not claim alternatig current as Serbian invention, but Nikola Tesla's.

There's this subtle difference here. The script was created and adopted in the state called Bulgaria by scholars who were Bulgarians, everyone else got it from us. It's rather straightforward, no room for any debate whatsoever.

It's based on the Greek one, but it is clearly not Greek anymore, I see no problem here. It's like asking is the Latin script Greek or Roman...

[Hochmeister]

Kirill and Methodius were from Thesalonniki, and Kirill was a librarian at Agia Sophia (Constantinople). Case closed.

[Twistedmind]

There's this subtle difference here. The script was created and adopted in the state called Bulgaria by scholars who were Bulgarians, everyone else got it from us.
It's rather straight forward, no room for any debate whatsoever.

It was continuation of work of previous generations. For example Cyrill and Methodios. Those scholars, were educated by Greeks, just took Greek alphabet, and ad 14 letters (most based on previous Slavic alphabet, made from Greeks.) Like you said, there is no room for discussion, it was adopted not invented.




It's based on the Greek one, but it is clearly not Greek anymore, I see no problem here.
It was clearly Greek, like I said in that time, just somebody who knew one of two languages could tell difference between texts. Same as abasic Latin which have 24 letters, and forms who have 40+

[morski]

Kirill and Methodius were from Thesalonniki, and Kirill was a librarian at Agia Sophia (Constantinople). Case closed.

:picard1:

[morski]

It was continuation of work of previous generations. For example Cyrill and Methodios. Those scholars, were educated by Greeks, just took Greek alphabet, and ad 14 letters (most based on previous Slavic alphabet, made from Greeks.) Like you said, there is no room for discussion, it was adopted not invented.



It was clearly Greek, like I said in that time, just somebody who knew one of two languages could tell difference between texts. Same as abasic Latin which have 24 letters, and forms who have 40+

By Bulgarians in Bulgaria, it diverged from the Greek one from the start and afterwards was just the Bulgarian alphabet.

[Twistedmind]

By Bulgarians in Bulgaria, it diverged from the Greek one from the start and afterwards was just the Bulgarian alphabet.

They did not call it Bulgarian but Slavic alphabet, to late to claim trademark. :rolleyes:

[morski]

They did not call it Bulgarian but Slavic alphabet, to late to claim trademark. :rolleyes:

Slavic/Slovenski pertaining to the people who adhere to the word (of God) was not the name of the language or letters.

Anyway, what does it mean - to late. Objectively it was the Bulgarian alphabet no matter what they called it.

[Archduke]

:picard1:

This post of Hochmeister proves that most people who vote are ignorant on this topic. ;)

[Hochmeister]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/a64dbafc50c19f4be1ba41b1986a94a1/tumblr_mgads2bsQC1qk9qqdo1_1280.png

[Twistedmind]

Slavic/Slovenski pertaining to the people who adhere to the word (of God) was not the name of the language or letters.
:picard1:
You seem to love discuss about language which you dont know. Well, one of first sources of it:


вьси чисто словѣньскы бесѣдуютъ
No need to explain it closer:
All of them (Thessalonikians) are fluent in Slavonic.

[morski]

This post of Hochmeister proves that most people who vote are ignorant on this topic. ;)

Yeah, why bother... I've met Russians who claimed the alphabet was already in use in the Galicko Principality and Cyrill and Methodius got it from there.:D:crazy:

[Hochmeister]

This post of Hochmeister proves that most people who vote are ignorant on this topic. ;)

This is written in the hagiography of Kirill and Methodius.

[morski]

:picard1:
You seem to love discuss about language which you dont know. Well, one of first sources of it:


No need to explain it closer:
All of them (Thessalonikians) are fluent in Slavonic.

Yeah, they were all Christians, and?

Slovenski=Christian.

[Hevo]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhob8igiHY1qhst85o1_400.gif

http://blog.accentschool.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Early_cyrillic_alphabet1-300x284.png

http://lifedaily.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/1b985-euro-banknote.jpg

Can't believe how many butthurt envious Slavic "brothers" there are out there.

Learn the meaning of ''butthurt'' and envious and since when i am your brother?:/

Anyway, without Greece there wasn't a Cyrilic alphabet at all.

[Twistedmind]

Yeah, they were all Christians, and?

Slovenski=Christian.
Christian language. :rotfl2 :rotfl2 :rotfl2

Anyway, this was something for you written by Bulgarian monk: "Translated from Slavonic and highest Greek language into simple Bulgarian". And this book is also from 1806. Also it was printed and translated with blessing of Metropolitan of Bucharesti.

http://www.dodaj.rs/f/16/a7/4Msjqb3W/v16.png

[morski]

Learn the meaning of ''butthurt'' and envious and since when i am your brother?:/

Anyway, without Greece there wasn't a Cyrilic alphabet at all.

I know the meaning of both terms, thank you very much. The brother reference wasn't targeted specifically at you.

[morski]

Christian language. :rotfl2 :rotfl2 :rotfl2

Anyway, this was something for you written by Bulgarian monk: "Translated from Slavonic and highest Greek language into simple Bulgarian". And this book is also from 1806. Also it was printed and translated with blessing of Metropolitan of Bucharesti.

http://www.dodaj.rs/f/16/a7/4Msjqb3W/v16.png

What does this have to do with the alphabet, which was adoted a thousand years earlier?

The meaning of words changes with time you know...

[Hevo]

I know the meaning of both term, thank you very much. The brother reference wasn't targeted specifically at you.

Aha i understand it seems to be a misunderstanding then nevermind.:)

[Twistedmind]

What does this have to do with the alphabet, which was adoted a thousand years earlier?

The meaning of words changes with time you know...
:bored:
Why In IX century it had same meaning?


Прогласъ ѥсмь свѧтꙋ ѥваньгелью:
Ꙗко пророци прорекли сѫтъ прѣжде,
Христъ грѧдетъ събьратъ ѩзꙑкъ,
Свѣтъ бо ѥстъ вьсемꙋ мирꙋ семꙋ.
Се събꙑстъ сѧ въ седмꙑи вѣкъ сь.

Рѣшѧ бо они: слѣпїи прозьрѧтъ,
глꙋси слꙑшѧтъ слово бꙋкъвьноѥ.
Бога же ѹбо познати достоитъ.
Того же ради слꙑшите, Словѣне, си:
Даръ бо ѥстъ ѿ Бога сь данъ,

даръ божїи ѥстъ деснꙑѩ чѧсти,
даръ дꙋшамъ, николиже тьлѣѩ,
дꙋшамъ тѣмъ, ѩже и прїимѫтъ.
Матъѳеи, Мар(ъ)ко, Лꙋка и Іѡаннъ
ѹчѧтъ вьсь народъ глаголѭште:

Ѥлико бо своихъ дꙋшь лѣпотѫ
видитъ, любите бо радовати сѧ,
грѣховьнѫ же тьмѫ ѿгънати
и мира сего тьлѭ ѿложити
и раискоѥ житіѥ пріобрѣсти

и избѣжати ѿ огни горѫшта,
слꙑшите нꙑнѣ ѿ своѥго ѹма,
слꙑшите словѣньскъ народъ вьсь,
слꙑшите слово, ѿ Бога прїиде,
слово же кръмѧ чловѣчьскꙑѩ дꙋшѧ,

слово же крѣпѧ и срьдьце и ѹмъ,
слово се готоваѩ Бога познати.
Ꙗко бесвѣта радость не бѫдетъ
окꙋ видѧштю божіѭ тварь вьсѭ
нъ вьсе ни лѣпо ни видимо ѥстъ,

тако и дꙋша вьсꙗка без бꙋкъвъ
не съвѣдѫшти закона же божіꙗ,
закона кънижьна и дꙋховьна,
закона раи божїи ꙗвлꙗѭшта.
Кꙑи бо слꙋхъ громьнаѥго тѫтьна

не слꙑшѧ, Бога можетъ боꙗти сѧ?
Ноздри же пакꙑ, цвѣта не ѫхаѭшти,
како божьѥ чюдо разꙋмѣѥте?
Ѹста бо, ꙗже сладъка не чюѭтъ,
ꙗко камѣна творѧтъ же чловѣка.

Паче же сего дꙋша безбꙋкъвьна
ꙗвлꙗѥтъ сѧ въ чловѣцѣхъ мрьтва.
Се же вьсе мꙑ, братіѥ съмꙑслѧште
глаголѥмъ съвѣтъ подобаѭшть,
иже чловѣкꙑ вьсѩ ѿлѫчитъ

ѿ житіꙗ скотьска и похоти,
да не имѫште ѹмъ неразꙋмьнъ,
тꙋ ждемь ѩзꙑкомь слꙑшѧште слово
ꙗко мѣдьна звона гласъ слꙑшите.
Се бо свѧтꙑи Павьлъ ѹчѧ рече:

Молитвѫ своѭ въздаѩ прѣжде Богꙋ,
ꙗко хоштѭ словесъ пѧть издрешти
съ разꙋмомь своимь глаголати,
да и вьсе братьꙗ разꙋмѣѭтъ,
неже тьмѫ словесъ неразꙋмьнъ.

Кꙑи бо чловѣкъ не разꙋмѣѥтъ,
кꙑи не проложитъ притъчѧ мѫдрꙑ,
съказаѭштіѩ бесѣдꙑ правꙑ намъ?
Ꙗко бо тьлꙗ плътьхъ настоитъ,
вьсе тьлѧшти, паче гноꙗ гноѩшти,

ѥгна своѥго брашьна не иматъ,
тако дꙋша вьсꙗка опадаѥтъ
жизни, божіꙗ не имѫшти живота,
ѥгда словесе божіꙗ не слꙑшитъ.
Инѫ же пакꙑ притъчѫ мѫдрѫ дзѣло

да глаголѥмъ, чловѣци, любѧште сѧ,
хотѧште расти божіѥмь растомь,
къто бо вѣрꙑ сеѩ не вѣстъ правꙑ,
ꙗко сѣмени падаѭштю на нивѣ,
тако на срьдьцихъ чловѣчьсцѣхъ,

дъждꙗ божїи бꙋкъвъ трѣбꙋѭште,
да въздрастетъ плодъ божїи паче.
Къто можетъ притъче вьсѥ решти,
обличаѭштѧ бес книгъ ѩзꙑкꙑ,
въ гласѣ съмꙑсльнѣ не глаголѭште.

Ни аште ѹмѣѥтъ ѩзꙑкꙑ вьсѩ,
можетъ съказати немошть сихъ.
Обаче своѭ притъчѭ да приставлѭ,
мъногъ ѹмъ въ малѣ рѣчи кажѧ.
Нази бо вьси бес книгъ ѩзꙑци

брати сѧ не могѫште без орѫжіꙗ
съ противьникомь дꙋшь нашихъ
готови мѫкꙑ вѣчьнꙑѩ въ плѣнъ.
Иже бо врага, ѩзꙑци, не любите,
брати же сѧ съ нимь мꙑслѧште дзѣло,

ѿврьзѣте прилежьно ѹмꙋ двьри,
орѫжіѥ прїимъше тврьдо нꙑнѣ,
ѥже кꙋѭтъ кънигꙑ Господьнѥ,
главѫ тьрѫште непріꙗзни вельми.
Бꙋкъви сіѩ, иже бо прїиметъ

мѫдрость томꙋ Христосъ глаголѥтъ
и дꙋшѧ вашѧ бꙋкъвами крѣпитъ,
апостолꙑ же съ пророкꙑ вьсѣми.
Иже бо сихъ словеса глаголѭште
подобьни бѫдѫтъ врага ѹбити

побѣдѫ приносѧште къ Богꙋ добрѫ
плъти бѣжѧште тьлѩ гноѥвьнꙑѥ
плъти, ѥѩже животъ ꙗко въ сънѣ
не падаѭште, крѣпъко же стоѩште,
къ Богꙋ ꙗвльше сѧ ꙗко храбъри,

стоѩште о деснѫѭ божіꙗ прѣстола,
ѥгда огньмь сѫдитъ ѩзꙑкомъ,
радꙋѭште сѧ съ аньѣелꙑ въ вѣкꙑ,
присно славѩште Богъ милостивꙑи
кънижьнами вьсега же пѣсньми

Богꙋ поѭште чловѣкꙑ милꙋѭштю.
Томꙋ подобаѥтъ вьсꙗка слава,
чьсть и хвала, Божїи Сꙑнꙋ, вꙑнѫ
съ Отьцемь и Свѧтꙑимь Дꙋхомь
въ вѣкꙑ вѣкъ ѿ вьсеѩ твари.
Аминъ.

Bulgarian translation:p


Което са пророците някога предрекли:

Христос идва да сбере народите (по Ис. 66:18),

защото светлина е той за целия свят (по Йоан. 8:12).

Ето, сбъдва се в Седмия век то.

А казаха те: слепи ще прогледнат,

глухите ще чуят писменото слово (по Ис. 29:18),

ще познаят Бога както подобава.

Затова чуйте всички славяни!



Този дар от Бога ви е даден,

дар божи е за стоящите отдясно,

дар божи за душите, що никога не тлее,

за тез души, които го приемат.



Това е дарът!

Матей и Марк, Лука, Йоан —

те всички хора учат, като казат:

"Които красотата на душите си
съзирате — обичайте и радвайте се".
А които желаят на греховете мрака
и тлението на този свят да пренебрегнат,
и които искат да получат рая,
и да избегнат изгарящия огън —
вникнете сега с целия си разум!



Слушайте, цял славянски народе,
слушайте Словото, що от Бога дойде,
Словото, що кърми душите човешки,
Слово, що укрепва сърца и умове,
Слово, подготвящо всички да познаят Бога.



Както без светлина и радост не ще има
за окото, зрящо божието дело цяло,
но всичко е ни хубаво, ни зримо,
така е всякоя душа без книги,
невиждаща добре Закона божи,
Закона — писмен и духовен,
Закон, откриващ рая божи.



Та кой ли слух, тътнежа щом не чува
на гръмотевица, от Бога ще се плаши?
А още: ако ноздрите дъха на цвят не вдъхват
как ще разберете това божие чудо?
Устата, неусещащи вкуса на сладостта,

човека правят да е като камък,

но много повече безкнижната душа

във человеците е мъртво нещо.

За всичко туй когато мислим, братя,

изказваме виделина пристойна,

която ще изтръгне всички хора

от похотта и плътския живот,

та да не би с разсъдък неразумен,

щом слушате на чужда реч Словото,

да го не чувате подобно мед звънтяща (по 1 Кор. 13:1).



А туй и свети Павел, учейки, изрече,

отправяйки молитвите си нявга Богу:

"Желая думи пет да изрека,

но всички, братя, да ги разберат,

отколкото безброй слова неясни" (по 1 Кор. 4:19).



Кой човек, прочее, не ще разбере?

Кой не ще прибави мъдри притчи,

тълкуващи ни верните беседи?

И както тленността телата овладява —

те всички, гниещи, от тор по-бързо гният,

когато от храната са лишени —

тъй всякоя душа от битие лишена е,

когато божият живец й липсва,

когато Словото на Бога тя не чува.



И още, друга притча, твърде мъдра.

Ние, искащите да растем с ръст божий,

да кажем: "Хора, които се обичате,

кой не познава тази вяра права?

Както от семето, що пада на нивята,

така [посято е] в сърцата хорски (по Мат. 13:8),

на тях пък трябва дъжд от букви божии,

та плод божествен да покълне много.



Кой може всички притчи [да разкаже],

посрамващи народите без Книги,

говорещи със непонятен глас;

дори и всичките езици той да знае,

не може да опише немощта им.



Обаче нека своя притча да прибавя,

голяма мъдрост в малка реч да кажа:

Голи са без Книги всичките народи:

понеже без оръжие не могат

с врага на нашите души да се сразят,

те са готови за плена на мъки вечни.



А вие, народи, необичащи врага,

щом мислите да се сразите с него яко,

усърдно дверите на разума открийте,

оръжие приели здраво днес,

което Книгите господни изковават,

та главата на лукавия съвсем да смажат.



А тези букви който възприеме,

Христос Премъдростта изказва

и вашите души укрепва

с апостолите, с всичките пророци.

Говорещите тези словеса,

достойни ще са врага да убият,

принасяйки добра победа Богу,

на плътта отбягващи тлението скверно.



Животът чрез плътта е сякаш сън!

Неподдаващите се, стоящи твърдо,

за Бога ще са като воини,

стоящи вдясно при престола божий,

когато с огън той народите ще съди,

ликуващи със ангелите вечно,

и Милостивия славещи непрестанно.



И винаги със писаните песни

възпяващи Бога, човекомилосърдния,

защото нему подобава всяка слава,

и чест, и хвала божия навеки,

с Отца и със Светия Дух

за вечни векове от всякое творение.

Амин!

[Hochmeister]

FYROMians are Bulgarians indeed. :picard2:

[morski]

:bored:
Why In IX century it had same meaning?


Now, that's open for debate unlike who adopted the Bulgarian alphabet.:D

[morski]

FYROMians are Bulgarians indeed. :picard2:

Aha.

Now tell us how the Russians are pure Slavs without Germanic, Ugro-Finnic and Turko-Monglol admix, but the Balkan Slavs are half Slavs, because they have Thraco-Illyrian admix.:rolleyes:


Anyway, I'm out of the thread for now. Keep denying the medieval Bulgarian contribution to your nations becomming civilized people.

[iNird]

It was Macedonian.


Clement, Naum and other disciples of the Macedonian educators were responsible for the creation of the Cyrillic alphabet.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=127890

:laugh:

[Onur]

While you mention about the Greek alphabet being the source of Cyrillic, you should remember that the Greek alphabet itself is created by inspiring from an alphabet used by the Egyptians and their semitic tongue.

[Twistedmind]

While you mention about the Greek alphabet being the source of Cyrillic, you should remember that the Greek alphabet itself is created by inspiring from an alphabet used by the Egyptian christians and their semitic tongue.

http://pulsefeedz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Epic_Fail_by_thepaintrain.jpg

Could you for once read something properly on Wikipedia?
Coptic alphabet was derived from Greek, and they speak Hamitic language. :rotfl2

Greek letters were derived from Phoenician ones. :picard1:

[Archduke]

Greek letters were derived from Phoenician ones. :picard1:

In this case the Cyrilic alphabet is Phoenician. :lol::lol:

You guys are silly.

[Pontios]

Weren't St. Cyril and Methodius the inventors of the Cyrillic alphabet? Were they not Greek? In that case it is a Greek alphabet made for the Slavic people.

[Onur]

Could you for once read something properly on Wikipedia?

Coptic alphabet was derived from Greek, and they speak Hamitic language. :rotfl2

Greek letters were derived from Phoenician ones. :picard1:
Where was the Phonecians? Lebanon, Egypt and surroundings. What was their language? Semitic. So why you are reacting so stupidly?

Also, wtf is Hamitic language anyway?

[Archduke]

Weren't St. Cyril and Methodius the inventors of the Cyrillic alphabet?

No.

[Twistedmind]

Where was the Phonecians? Lebanon, Egypt and surroundings.

Guess again, there are two words more. And it was 1000 years BC, so it could be no "Egyptian Christians". Why are you even trying to defend your pearls?


I dont see Egypt and its surroundings in Phoenicia.
http://withfriendship.com/images/c/11680/Phoenicia-wallpaper.jpg




Also, wtf is Hamitic language anyway?

:picard1:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic#Hamitic_language_group

[Pontios]

No.


Based on the medieval Greek uncial script, the Cyrillic alphabet was probably invented by later followers of the 9th-century “apostles to the Slavs,” St. Cyril (or Constantine), for whom it was named, and St. Methodius.

Encyclopaedia Britannica (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/148713/Cyrillic-alphabet)


This set of characters is usually attributed to St. Cyril (827-869), who, along with his brother St. Methodius (826-884), was sent from Thessalonica, Greece, by Emperor Michael III to Christianize the Khazars.

Volga writer. (http://www.volgawriter.com/VW%20Cyrillic.htm)


The Cyrillic alphabet is younger than all known graphic writing systems. This alphabet is one of the two early Slavic alphabets (the other one is Glagolitic). The Glagolitic alphabet was created in the 9th century by brothers Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius, Greek missionaries.

It was made by Greeks... plain and simple.

[Queen B]

Seriously, are you debating on this?
Yes, it was made by Greeks, it derives from (based on) Greek, but to be used for a non-Greek language.Its not Bulgarian, its Slavic. It was made for Slavic languages in general.

[Archduke]

For dandelion and Pontios

The Glagolithic alphabet was invented from Cyril and Methodius. On this i can agree that it is Greek, but it's not fully since the Solun brothers were half Slavs from the Bulgarian group from maternal side.

On the other hand the Cyrilic alphabet is created from Clement of Ohrid, student of Cyril and Methodius who was Bulgarian from Southwestern Macedonia. He called the alphabet which invented Cyrilic on honour of his teacher Cyril.

[Twistedmind]

Cyrillic was adopted by Konstantin of Preslav.

Anyway, what he could created, if such forms of letters existed in V century:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Lectionary_5_%28GA%29%2C_f.115r.jpg

Compare it with Slavic manuscript from X/XI century:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Ostromir_Gospel_4.jpg

[Hochmeister]

Aha.
Now tell us how the Russians are pure Slavs without Germanic, Ugro-Finnic and Turko-Monglol admix, but the Balkan Slavs are half Slavs, because they have Thraco-Illyrian admix.:rolleyes:


I have never claimed that.

[Queen B]

The Glagolithic alphabet was invented from Cyril and Methodius. On this i can agree that it is Greek, but it's not fully since the Solun brothers were half Slavs from the Bulgarian group from maternal side.
I don't know any place called Solun. They were from Thessaloniki

[Archduke]

I don't know any place called Solun. They were from Thessaloniki

I will call it as i want. My grandparents called it like that and my children will continue to call it this way. :thumb001: Just like we will continue to call to Florina - Lerin, Edessa - Voden and so on.

[Midori]

Solun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solun,_Horqin_Right_Front_Banner) is a town in China.

[Queen B]

I will call it as i want. My grandparents called it like that and my children will continue to call it this way. :thumb001: Just like we will continue to call to Florina - Lerin, Edessa - Voden and so on.
Call it as you want. But those brothers were from Thessaloniki ;)

[Archduke]

Thessaloniki ;)

Yes, that's how Greeks call Solun.

This is quite presumptuous considering the fact that Greeks call many Bulgarian cities with their Greek names.

[Queen B]

Yes, that's how Greeks call Solun.

Its the city's official name since antiquity.
You can find it in ancient texts, bible, and official papers through the years.
:bored:

[Archduke]

Its the city's official name since antiquity.
You can find it in ancient texts, bible, and official papers through the years.
:bored:

And guess what? Slavs came and start calling it Solun.

Period.

[Annihilus]

You are both wrong, it's Selanik:D

[Queen B]

And guess what? Slavs came and start calling it Solun.
Period.
Guess what, neither when Kyrilos and Methodios were born, nor now is under Slavs.In fact, how long it was under ''Bulgarians'' ? :tongue

End of story. :cool:

[Archduke]

Guess what, neither when Kyrilos and Methodios were born, nor now is under Slavs.In fact, how long it was under ''Bulgarians'' ? :tongue

First of all, Byzantine empire =/= Greek empire. Second, when Greeks got Solun/Selanik/Salonika/Thesalonikki, the city was multiethnic and Bulgarians and Greeks were equal in number. And third, that's silly discussion which you started is far from the topic we are discussing.

[Queen B]

First of all, Byzantine empire =/= Greek empire. Second, when Greeks got Solun/Selanik/Salonika/Thesalonikki, the city was multiethnic and Bulgarians and Greeks were equal in number. And third, that's silly discussion which you started is far from the topic we are discussing.
First of all Byzantine empire = Greek empire
Second, yes, it was multiethnic, but there is a reason it was called Imperium Greacorum and the official language wasn't Bulgarian, but Greek, and it didn't turn from Latin to Bulgarian, but from Latin to Greek.
Third, I agree, I didn't even intent to bother with that, you just called the city with a name that never had officialy. :D

Now, go on and debate about.. Cyrillic :lol:

[Archduke]

you just called the city with a name that never had officialy. :D

What's "official" name?! Typical greek behavior.

Go tell to South Slavic people (and not only) that the name we are using is "unofficial". :lol:

[ioan assen]

Was Cyrillic invented by a Bulgarian? Yes. Was it invented in Bulgaria? Yes. Then it is a Bulgarian alphabet. All voters should just research and start differentiating glagolithic and cyrillic alphabets and vote after that.

[Dacul]

It's a greek alphabet, like the standard greek and the latin (chalkidean) one.


The least you Barbarians can do is to be grateful to your Greek masters.
Idiot,it is the alphabet of Holy Spirit,since those brothers are saints,not idiotic-jewo-ultra-nationalist greeks,as you are.
I am pretty sure these saints were disliking most usual greeks,this is why they went to spread christianity between slavs.

[Queen B]

What's "official" name?! Typical greek behavior.
Go tell to South Slavic people (and not only) that the name we are using is "unofficial". :lol:
Usuless discussion in a wrong topic :bored: PM about it if you want further discussion

[Lithium]

The brothers were definitely Slavic speakers, why else would they create an alphabet for foreign people? Greeks are very proud people, you can find a Slav speaking Greek but it's hard to find the opposite, at least according to the Bulgarian literature from that time.

[Dacul]

The brothers were definitely Slavic speakers, why else would they create an alphabet for foreign people? Greeks are very proud people, you can find a Slav speaking Greek but it's hard to find the opposite, at least according to the Bulgarian literature from that time.

Real christian orthodox greeks are very nice people,they are not arogant as average greek is,because they are enlightened by God.
Saints Cyril and Methodius were speaking slavic very well also.

[Lithium]

Real christian orthodox greeks are very nice people,they are not arogant as average greek is,because they are enlightened by God.
Saints Cyril and Methodius were speaking slavic very well also.

I didn't mean that the Greeks are arrogant, I personally like them.

[Don Arb]

The Preslav Literary School (Pliska Literary School, Bulgarian: Преславска книжовна школа) was the first literary school in the medieval Bulgarian Empire. It was established by Boris I in 885 or 886 in Bulgaria's capital, Pliska. In 893, Simeon I moved the seat of the school from Pliska to the new capital, Preslav.

The Preslav Literary School was the most important literary and cultural centre of Bulgaria and all Slavs until the capture and burning of Preslav by the Byzantine Emperor John I Tzimisces in 972.

The school developed the Cyrillic script,[1] and the earliest datable Cyrillic inscriptions have been found in the area of Preslav: in the medieval city itself, at nearby Patleina (also Shumen Province), Krepcha (present-day Targovishte Province), and Ravna (present-day Varna Province).

Seriously there is no doubt that the cyrilic alphabet was created for bulgarian language and by bulgarians, it may have been influenced by the greek alphabet but still represent new one since it was changed and adopted for bulgarian language.

Jelly people are going to jelly.

[Turkophagos]

The brothers were definitely Slavic speakers, why else would they create an alphabet for foreign people?

The two monks later canonized as Saints Cyril and Methodius, the brothers from Thessaloniki, were sent to Great Moravia in 862 by the Byzantine emperor at the request of Knyaz (Duke) Rastislav, who wanted to weaken the dependence of his country on East Frankish priests.



At the time, Orthodox Slavs = Byzantine allies. Catholic Slavs=Frankish allies=Byzantine enemies.



Idiot,it is the alphabet of Holy Spirit,since those brothers are saints,not idiotic-jewo-ultra-nationalist greeks,as you are.
I am pretty sure these saints were disliking most usual greeks,this is why they went to spread christianity between slavs.


w/e

[Twistedmind]

First of all, Byzantine empire =/= Greek empire. Second, when Greeks got Solun/Selanik/Salonika/Thesalonikki, the city was multiethnic and Bulgarians and Greeks were equal in number. And third, that's silly discussion which you started is far from the topic we are discussing.

No, Slavs did not live in city, but few miles outside, even in Bulgarian books you could read so. Second, Thessaloniki Slavs were not Bulgarians. You realize they could not accept idneity of state to which they never belonged. :picard1:

PS what happened with proud Bulgarian people fighting Aginst Onur, it seems he is your biggest supporter, together with shiptar trolls.

[Onur]

The brothers were definitely Slavic speakers
Yes, they were speaking slavic for sure but we are not sure if it was their mothertongue or a foreign language.


why else would they create an alphabet for foreign people?
To ease their assimilation into the christendom, convince them to obey the patriarch and the emperor by converting their status into some kind of holy being in their minds and finally tame them so they never rebel against the emperor again.

Before the protestant movement, the christianity has always been used as some kind of psychological taming baton upon people for 1000+ years. It`s still are but it`s not as powerful anymore, as it was in medieval ages. Already the main purpose of semitic religions are to tame people, make them obey to the self-claimed authority.


Greeks are very proud people, you can find a Slav speaking Greek but it's hard to find the opposite, at least according to the Bulgarian literature from that time.
Yes but for the missioners, it was essential to learn the language of barbarian pagans and communicate with them in their own language. Thats why missioners was capable of speaking several foreign tongues. For example, when Cyril&Methodious sent to Khazar empire to convert them, they learned Khazar Turkic and their runic script in there. They wrote all of these in their autobiography.



what happened with proud Bulgarian people fighting Aginst Onur, it seems he is your biggest supporter, together with shiptar trolls.
I don't support or bash anyone without a proper logical reason. I am just expressing my own views here.

[Twistedmind]

I don't support or bash anyone without a proper logical reason. I am just expressing my own views here.
Let me sumarize your views, you confused Copts and Poenicains, slight 1000 years of difference, you confused Hammitic and Semitic languages, just to say something hatefull against Greeks. :picard1:

I just could laugh to most replies in this thread since it lacks basic knowledge of Slavistics. Or world history, and offten antional history by some users.

[Pontios]

I cannot believe this discussion is even happening. How uneducated in history do you have to be to think Bulgarians created an alphabet. St. Cyril and Methodius clearly created and spread the alphabet to the Bulgarians to be able to spread Orthodoxy to them because they didn't have any way to read any religious texts in their language because they didn't even have an alphabet.

Turkophagos is right, you are unthankful barbarians if you want to claim it as your creation. We taught you to read and write and you are complaining about it and trying to pretend like you were smart enough to create your own alphabet.

[Crn Volk]

I cannot believe this discussion is even happening. How uneducated in history do you have to be to think Bulgarians created an alphabet. St. Cyril and Methodius clearly created and spread the alphabet to the Bulgarians to be able to spread Orthodoxy to them because they didn't have any way to read any religious texts in their language because they didn't even have an alphabet.

Turkophagos is right, you are unthankful barbarians if you want to claim it as your creation. We taught you to read and write and you are complaining about it and trying to pretend like you were smart enough to create your own alphabet.

St. Cyril and Methodius invented the Glagolitic alphabet, which was further developed by Sts Kliment and Naum and named Cyrillic. The Glagolitic alphabet was based on the language of the Macedonian Slavs living around Salonika at the time.

[Lithium]

It's so funny how every different nation has their own theory and claims the alphabet as theirs :D

[ioan assen]

It's so funny how every different nation has their own theory and claims the alphabet as theirs :D
yes, but educated people know its bulgarian. the cyrilic one.

[Pontios]

St. Cyril and Methodius invented the Glagolitic alphabet, which was further developed by Sts Kliment and Naum and named Cyrillic. The Glagolitic alphabet was based on the language of the Macedonian Slavs living around Salonika at the time.

Macedonian Slavs???? There are only one true Macedonians and those are Hellenes.

[Vojnik]

I cannot believe this discussion is even happening. How uneducated in history do you have to be to think Bulgarians created an alphabet. St. Cyril and Methodius clearly created and spread the alphabet to the Bulgarians to be able to spread Orthodoxy to them because they didn't have any way to read any religious texts in their language because they didn't even have an alphabet.

Saints Kiril and Metodij were Slavic brothers who lived among Slavs in Salonika. They as Slavs created the Glagolitic Alphabet. The Cyrillic alphabet (Кирилица) is named after Kiril.

Here is something interesting for you to read.
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-3-X.html

At the time St. Cyril, then still known as Constantine, was receiving his education in Byzantium, there was a strong German effort to convert the Slavic population in Moravia to the Roman Catholic faith. Their teachings however were in Latin, and as a result, in 862 or 863, the Moravian Prince Rostislav sent to the Byzantine Emperor Michael III for a "bishop and a teacher," saying, "My people have rejected paganism and hold the Christian law, but we do not have a teacher who could preach to us in our own native tongue." The Emperor quickly chose to send Constantine, accompanied by his brother Methodius, justifying his decision with the words "You two are from Salonika, and all Thessalonians speak pure Slavonic." Constantine immediately composed an alphabet and with his brother began the process of translating the Gospels into Slavonic. It appears that, at the time, the Slavonic dialects were little enough differentiated so that a translation could be made which would be broadly intelligible.

Вие двајцата сте Солунчани, и сите Солунчани зборуваат чисто Словенски.

Slavs tought Slavs how to read and write. 'Greeks' didn't do shit.



Turkophagos is right, you are unthankful barbarians if you want to claim it as your creation. We taught you to read and write and you are complaining about it and trying to pretend like you were smart enough to create your own alphabet.

Firstly, who did you teach? stop acting so superior. Secondly, Slavs created there own alphabet. They may have borrowed some Greek letters but why does that matter? I have no need to be thankful to you neo-Greeks, especially to a Pontic neo-Greek.

[Vojnik]

Macedonian Slavs???? There are only one true Macedonians and those are Hellenes.

Who???? the Pontic and Anatolian refugees are one and only Macedonians? :D You got to be joking.

[Queen B]

Saints Kiril and Metodij were Slavic brothers who lived among Slavs in Salonika. They as Slavs created the Glagolitic Alphabet. The Cyrillic alphabet (Кирилица) is named after Kiril.

After Alexander the Great, Mother Teresa, Goce Delcev now are Kyrillos and Methodios as well :rotfl:

[Lemon Kush]

Yes. The early Cyrillic script was developed at the Preslav Literary School during the first Bulgarian Empire, 9th century A.D.

[Vojnik]

After Alexander the Great, Mother Teresa, Goce Delcev now are Kyrillos and Methodios as well :rotfl:

Alexander the Great and Mother Teresa were not Slavic. The rest in you list are though.

[Queen B]

Alexander the Great and Mother Teresa were not Slavic. The rest in you list are though.
Goce Delcev was Bulgarian, and Kyrulos and Methodios were Greeks, with possible Slavic ancestry from their mother's side

[Linet]

Yes, that's how Greeks call Solun.

This is quite presumptuous considering the fact that Greeks call many Bulgarian cities with their Greek names.

Thats how Greeks named Thessaloniki when they built it....:biggrin

Greeks call Munich as Monaho, but guess what....i wont try to convince Germans my way id they right one :no:...that would be plain stupidity, no? :chin:

And now some history:
Thessaloniki was built by kassandros, one of Alexanders Generals and commander of Greece after his death.
Thessaloniki was the name of Kassandors wife, who also was Alexanders half sister (same father). That name was given to her by Phillip because the day she was born :baby2000: Macedonians won a battle against Thessalians. So her name, in Greek of course :eyes, means victory over Thessalians. (Thessalon+niki).

When Solun means nothing, nor in the original Greek language, nor in yours :wink:

[Linet]

The brothers were definitely Slavic speakers, why else would they create an alphabet for foreign people? Greeks are very proud people, you can find a Slav speaking Greek but it's hard to find the opposite, at least according to the Bulgarian literature from that time.

Because they were ordered by the emperor of Byzantium....
French, English , Spanish etc do/did the same till today to the nations they conquered. Guess the benefits your enemy to be affected by you to the core and to have your religion...think of Catholics and all other religions and what they do to expand.... The difference was the Greeks were more civilised in their ways and more cunning... since Slavs were not to easy to be copntrolled and forced, Greeks did it the sly way....oh let me teach you somethign my child :wink

[Vojnik]

Goce Delcev was Bulgarian, and Kyrulos and Methodios were Greeks, with possible Slavic ancestry from their mother's side

WTF? Ok, Bulgarian, so Goce Delcev is Slav, right? :picard1:

Kiril and Mendo were Slavs that spoke Slavic as there mother tongue and lived in a Salonika full of Slavonic speaking people as the article I posted above suggests.

Were was the term 'Greek' or 'Hellenes' to denote an ethnicity or tribe used during the time of Kiril and Metodij? Everyone was simply just Byzantine regardless of there ethnicity, true? Byzantium was always a multicultural empire even till the end of it's existence at the fall of Constantinople in 1453. Greek within the Byzantine empire was nothing more then just a language used by many different peoples. So seeing as though language did't equal ethnicity in the Byzantine empire, what the hell was a 'Greek'? and where do you get the fantasy that Kiril and Metodij were 'Greeks'?

[Linet]

Kiril and Mendo were Slavs that spoke Slavic as there mother tongue and lived in a Salonika full of Slavonic speaking people as the article I posted above suggests.
?

BooooNNNNG :scared:....start by trying to say their names correctly before you try claim them :wink:

[Vojnik]

BooooNNNNG :scared:....start by trying to say their names correctly before you try claim them :wink:

The proper way of saying their names is Kiril and Metodij, but I just called them by there short names in Slavic which is Kire and Mendo. I have no need to claim what is already proven.

[Linet]

Some more history tips eyes:
Kyrilos real name was Constantine, like half of the Greeks today, and he was renamed to Kyrilos right before his death :goodnight:

They were brothers borned is Thessaloniki and raised by Theoktistos, because their father had died when they were still babies :baby2000:.

Kyrilos stadied at Constantinoupolis when Methodios was an officer of Byzantium. After Kyrilos ended his studies :book2:, they became embassadors for Byzanitum and went into many missions.
When their foster father death :rip:, they went into a Monastery at Bythinia for some time and later on they returned to Constantinoupolis to continue their missions.
About that time and due to their experience as embassadors, they were sent to one more important mission to the Slavs of the Balkans...Does that ring a bell :chin:? Can you guess for what? :lightbul:

From their life....you can see them for them they were, officers and embasadors of Byzantium :cool: that served the interests of their country.

The christianisation of Bulgariia was their greatest mission and they accompished it :thumbs:...the mission started on 863AD :old

[Queen B]

WTF? Ok, Bulgarian, so Goce Delcev is Slav, right? :picard1:
I never said he isn't Slav. He is Bulgarian.


Kiril and Mendo were Slavs that spoke Slavic as there mother tongue and lived in a Salonika full of Slavonic speaking people as the article I posted above suggests.
Mendo? What's that ? Japanese?
Konstantinos and Michail or Kyrilos and Methodios, spoke Greek as their mother tongue, and (especially Kyril) , also spoke Slavic, Latin, Jewish, Turkish, Syrian and Arabic.
I guess Kyrilos was also Jew,Turk,Syrian and Arab because he spoke those languages?

So seeing as though language did't equal ethnicity in the Byzantine empire, what the hell was a 'Greek'? and where do you get the fantasy that Kiril and Metodij were 'Greeks'?
Not me, Christian ''brothers'' did, like Pope Pios XI (1927) or the SLAVIC Pope John Paul II (1980):D

[Queen B]

Some more history tips eyes:
Kyrilos real name was Constantine, like half of the Greeks today, and he was renamed to Kyrilos right before his death :goodnight:

Kyrilos real name was Konstantinos and Methodios real name was Michail.
Their father name was Leontas. Not Goce, not Kire, not any Slavic name.

[Linet]

Kyrilos real name was Konstantinos and Methodios real name was Michail.
Their father name was Leontas. Not Goce, not Kire, not any Slavic name.

I agree :)
I didnt say the opposite :noidea:

[shaliza]

Cyril and Methodius Greeks? They weren't Greeks, not ethnic Greeks. They were called "Greeks" because they were educated, and all educated people at that time were called "Greeks", because advanced education required perfect spoken and written Greek.

Their mother was probably a Slav, origins of their father are unknown. Can anyone find me a source where they identified as Greeks?

And how could they write a Slavic script if they were Greeks? Greeks don't speak Slavic, do they?

Moreover, Cyril and Methodius aren't a subject of this discussion, simply because they invented Glagolic, not Cyrilic alphabet. Glagolic alphabet was the base of the Cyrilic alphabet, written in Bulgaria by Cyril and Methodius' Slavic students (who were Slavs, surprise?).

So Greeks to claim Cyrilic alphabet is even dumber than Lebanese to claim Greek alphabet.


Kyrilos real name was Konstantinos and Methodios real name was Michail.
Their father name was Leontas. Not Goce, not Kire, not any Slavic name.

My name is Elisaveta. Am i GReek?

[Queen B]

Their mother was probably a Slav, origins of their father are unknown. Can anyone find me a source where they identified as Greeks?

The origin of their father is known, it was Leontas, a Greek noble.
Leontas isn't even a Christian name , or to be more exact an ''International'' Christian given name, like others.


And how could they write a Slavic script if they were Greeks? Greeks don't speak Slavic, do they?
:picard1:


My name is Elisaveta. Am i GReek?
Elizabeth is not a Greek name to begin with. Is Hebrew.

[shaliza]

The origin of their father is known, it was Leontas, a Greek noble.

Any sources where he identified as Greek? In Bulgaria, students are taught he was Hellenized Bulgarian who served in the army of Byzantine.


Elizabeth is not a Greek name to begin with. Is Hebrew.

Don't play stupid. You knew exactly what I mean.

[Queen B]

Any sources where he identified as Greek? In Bulgaria, students are taught he was Hellenized Bulgarian who served in the army of Byzantine.
His biography.Also,what I wrote before from his ''Slavic'' brother Pope, and other ''Christian'' brothers quotes about their origin. .


Don't play stupid. You knew exactly what I mean.
I don't. Your example was irrelevant.

[shaliza]

I don't. Your example was irrelevant.

You can't tell one's origins simply by their name.

[Queen B]

You can't tell one's origins simply by their name.

Depends. If you are talking about his name, and no further info included, yes.
But that's not the case.

If all the names in my family are Robert, Mitch, Edward, Leini, then, I'm obviously a non-Greek.
(Non-Greek names)
If all the names in my family are Veronica instead of Veroniki, Afanasiy instead of Athanasius, Aleksey instead of Alexis, then I am also a non-Greek.
(Greek rooted names, with non-Greek calling)

Also, note that they weren't given a Slavic name, that later was included in Orthodoxy. I mean, why they weren't given names like Clement or Naum? :mmmm:

[AkisGreece]

It is a corrupted version of the Greek alphabet.

[east]

It is a corrupted version of the Greek alphabet.

I would say improved version of Greek ABC :)

[AkisGreece]

I would say improved version of Greek ABC :)

If that forum was a Greek one I would use the word 'παρεφθαρμένο'.

Since the English language is very poor in its vocabulary, I hate to use terms that have biliteral language.

Latin alphabet was 100% Greek.
It is the Greek alphabet used by Greeks in Evia.
Latins plagiarized it after coming in contact with Greek colonialists in Cuma.

Cyrillic one is corrupted.
It was made by Greeks for Slavs...it had to include extra adds to make it distinct from the original one due to political and cultural reasons.
It was obviously a mistake.

Can you imagine Russians writing in Greek?


.....

[shaliza]

Latin alphabet was 100% Greek.
It is the Greek alphabet used by Greeks in Evia.
Latins plagiarized it after coming in contact with Greek colonialists in Cuma.

Cyrillic one is corrupted.
It was made by Greeks for Slavs...

And then Macedonians had megalomania.

[AkisGreece]

And then Macedonians had megalomania.

Bulgarians had already been approached by Latins first to convert to Christianity.

Blame your kings for choosing my people.

[Linet]

And then Macedonians had megalomania.

Its not our fault if we had an empire :eyes....nor that our ancestors liked to invent things and expand their civilisation :chin: (of course neither our accomplishment :shy: )...but still they did.

I suppose you didnt care to read my previous post about their original names, neither for their studies and job....oops....they were experienced diplomats that had been in many countries and could speak many languages, very educated people....oops they were chosen to go to this mission exactly for those abilities they had...:lightbul:

...They were Byzantian high officers , they wouldnt give a penny for Bulgarians if they didnt have the mission to christianise and bring them closer to the Byzantine world :wink

[Linet]

Έτσι όπως τους τα χώνουμε, θα καταφέρουμε να τους κάνουμε Καθολικούς :laugh:

[Don Arb]

If that forum was a Greek one I would use the word 'παρεφθαρμένο'.

Since the English language is very poor in its vocabulary, I hate to use terms that have biliteral language.

Latin alphabet was 100% Greek.
It is the Greek alphabet used by Greeks in Evia.
Latins plagiarized it after coming in contact with Greek colonialists in Cuma.

Cyrillic one is corrupted.
It was made by Greeks for Slavs...it had to include extra adds to make it distinct from the original one due to political and cultural reasons.
It was obviously a mistake.

Can you imagine Russians writing in Greek?


.....

The Greek alphabet (and by extension its descendants such as the Latin, the Cyrillic and the Coptic), was a direct successor of Phoenician, though certain letter values were changed to represent vowels.

[Linet]

The Greek alphabet (and by extension its descendants such as the Latin, the Cyrillic and the Coptic), was a direct successor of Phoenician, though certain letter values were changed to represent vowels.

And why you care so much :chin:...Dont tell me you are Phoenesian and want the copyrights :blink:?

[Don Arb]

And why you care so much :chin:...Dont tell me you are Phoenesian and want the copyrights :blink:?

For me only the truth matters.
This is the phoenican alphabet, all is clear I guess!
http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q730/Donarb/alphabet_phoenician_zps6c687942.gif

[shaliza]

Its not our fault if we had an empire :eyes....nor that our ancestors liked to invent things and expand their civilisation :chin: (of course neither our accomplishment :shy: )...but still they did.

Ours also did, yet we don't mention this in every second post of ours. Neither claim other's invention as ours. Stick to Hellenic culture, Slavic culture belongs to us (and all other Slavs).

[Twistedmind]

The proper way of saying their names is Kiril and Metodij, but I just called them by there short names in Slavic which is Kire and Mendo. I have no need to claim what is already proven.

Proper way of saying their names was Μιχαήλ and Κωνσταντίνος ;) Monk names were: Κύριλλος (little sir) καὶ Μεθόδιος (methodical one) They were Greeks, even Bulgarian historiography accepts it.

[Linet]

For me only the truth matters.
This is the phoenican alphabet, all is clear I guess!


I may be mistaken :chin: but i thought is a discussion about the Cyrilic alphabet :icon_ask: not in general about the origin of Alphabet :rolleyes:

[Vojnik]

Proper way of saying their names was Μιχαήλ and Κωνσταντίνος ;) Monk names were: Κύριλλος (little sir) καὶ Μεθόδιος (methodical one) They were Greeks, even Bulgarian historiography accepts it.

Brate, just because you presented me with the Koine (Greek) version of their names, doesn't make them 'Greek'. In Byzantium (Pravoslav) the Koine language and alphabet was the lingua franca, people were required to know it.

Byzantium was in the modern sense a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic empire all trough it's history.

Now, nationalism was not invented at the time and there was no defined ethnicities. If we use language to indicate the ethnicity of Kiril and Metodij, then they used both Slavonic and Koine. The use of the Koine (Greek) language by the brothers was because at the time it was the official and codified language of the church. As Kiril and Metodij were high ranking clergy, it was a requirement for them to know the Koine language.

The question is now, if there was no written form of the Slavic language, and if they were 'Greek', how did they learn to speak Slavic? Why were they chosen to go teach the Slavs of Moravia? They obviously were taught by their mother, who was supposedly Slavic and it must of been their native language from birth.

So what about them was 'Greek'? They were Slavs, simple.

[Twistedmind]

Brate, just because you presented me with the Koine (Greek) version of their names, doesn't make them 'Greek'. In Byzantium (Pravoslav) the Koine language and alphabet was the lingua franca, people were required to know it.

Thank you for sharing your opinion, brother. :)
You are forgoting they were never described as Slavs, not even by their pupils. :) They surely spoke Slavic, and were verry fluent in it. But from what we know about Constantine/Cyrill he was real genius, knowing at least dozen languages and writting systems. :)



The question is now, if there was no written form of the Slavic language, and if they were 'Greek', how did they learn to speak Slavic? Why were they chosen to go teach the Slavs of Moravia? They obviously were taught by their mother, who was supposedly Slavic and it must of been their native language from birth.


Приема се, че родителите Лъв и Мария, като византийски аристократи, са ромеи, а разговорен славянски език братята, които са полиглоти, научават на пазара в Солун.
It is consensus of modern Scholars. I would personaly love to be proven they were Slavs. But there is no proof fo it. :)

[Queen B]

The question is now, if there was no written form of the Slavic language, and if they were 'Greek', how did they learn to speak Slavic?
They were also speaking Syrian, Arabic, Latin, Turkish and Hebrew.
Why did they learn that? Maybe Kyrillos was Syrian and Methodios was a Turk.:D


Why were they chosen to go teach the Slavs of Moravia?
They have already been in missions to teach Christianity/stop Judaism. Their work was known.They were also multilanguage and highly educated, so why not?

[Archduke]

They were also speaking Syrian, Arabic, Latin, Turkish and Hebrew.

Correct me if i'm worng, but Turks were not even in Anatolia atm. :rolleyes:

[Twistedmind]

Khazarian Turkish ;) Constantin went there before Moravian mission.

[Archduke]

Khazarian Turkish

Sorry but there is no such thing.

There is difference between Turkish and Turkic. It's about time some people to realize the difference betweent these two.

[Twistedmind]

Sorry but there is no such thing.

There is difference between Turkish and Turkic. It's about time some people to realize the difference betweent these two.
:picard1:
If you look in his hagiography, (something you will not do, of course), you will find mention of Turkish. But, yes you are right, and guess what it does not help your claim. :bored:

[Dengizik]

Sorry but there is no such thing.

There is difference between Turkish and Turkic. It's about time some people to realize the difference betweent these two.

But its similar with modern Turkish anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Okurum-Khazar.png

[Archduke]

:picard1:
If you look in his hagiography, (something you will not do, of course), you will find mention of Turkish.

In this case we should call Hungarian Turkish too just because some "sources" describe them as Turks. Pathetic.


But, yes you are right, and guess what it does not help your claim. :bored

And what exactly is my "claim"?

[Archduke]

But its similar with modern Turkish anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Okurum-Khazar.png

Still, it doesn't make the language Turkish.

Serbian and Bulgarian are also similar, but that doesn't make Bulgarian Serbian or vice versa.

[Twistedmind]

In this case we should call Hungarian Turkish too just because some "sources" describe them as Turks. Pathetic.

:picard1:
It is conensus that Khazars are Turkic. Comparing two pretty different situations. Pathetic.



And what exactly is my "claim"?

I have hard time to track it. State it. :D
Turkic or Turkish, it does not have lot to do with ethnicity of Saint brothers. All sources call them Byzantines who learnt dialect of Slavs arround Thessalonik on marketplace.

[Archduke]

:picard1:
It is conensus that Khazars are Turkic. Comparing two pretty different situations. Pathetic.

Exactly. Turkic, not Turkish.


Turkic or Turkish, it does not have lot to do with ethnicity of Saint brothers.

I never claimed that Cyril and Methodius were Slavs/Bulgarians. I just said that Turkic and Turkish are totally different things.


All sources call them Byzantines who learnt dialect of Slavs arround Thessalonik on marketplace.

Ok bro, i never said the opposite. :D

In fact the brothers created the Glagolitic alphabet which people hardly use today. The thread is for the Cyrilic alphabet and i only see butthurt posts from our beloved jelly neighbours. :rolleyes:

[Twistedmind]

Ok bro, i never said the opposite. :D

In fact the brothers created the Glagolitic alphabet which people hardly use today. The thread is for the Cyrilic alphabet and i only see butthurt posts from our beloved jelly neighbours. :rolleyes:

Than entire world is butthurted. Because no historian or linguist claim Cyrillic to be something new. Greek alphabet with some new letters, taken from Glagolitic and some Middle Eastern alphabets ;)

Yes, Bulgarian Khaganate/Empire become center of Slavic literacy after Moravia, and?

[ioan assen]

But its similar with modern Turkish anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Okurum-Khazar.png
:picard2: As much as Bulgarian is similar to Belorussian or Czech or even Lithuanian...:picard2: if we consider the group Balto-slavic...

[Archduke]

Than entire world is butthurted. Because no historian or linguist claim Cyrillic to be something new. Greek alphabet with some new letters, taken from Glagolitic and some Middle Eastern alphabets ;)

Historians will laugh at you if you say that Cyrilic is actually Greek+some other letters. These two alphabets are totally different. That's why the Cyrilic alphabet is not considered as some kind of "Slavic variant" of the Greek alphabet.

And the fact that it's developed in the Bulgarian empire with the support of the Bulgarian emperor, makes it 100% Bulgarian.


Yes, Bulgarian Khaganate/Empire become center of Slavic literacy after Moravia, and?

Guess why Bulgaria was considered as center of Slavic literacy back then. :rolleyes:

[Vojnik]

Thank you for sharing your opinion, brother. :)
You are forgoting they were never described as Slavs, not even by their pupils. :) They surely spoke Slavic, and were verry fluent in it. But from what we know about Constantine/Cyrill he was real genius, knowing at least dozen languages and writting systems. :)

They were known as Byzantines as they were citizens of Byzantium. They spoke the local Salonika dialect of Slavic fluently. Their mother was a Slav. Their fathers identity is disputed, but what is known of their father is that his name was Lev (leo), which is Slavic. There is no evidence pointing to them being 'Greeks'. People only claim they were 'Greek' because they knew the Koine language, which again was a requirement.

It is confirmed that they are at least half Slav from their mothers side.

Yes, they knew many languages, but what's important is the language they new from birth, which was Slavic. Again, have a look what the Byzantine Emperor Michael III said when choosing Cyril and Methodius to take on the mission in Moravia.


At the time St. Cyril, then still known as Constantine, was receiving his education in Byzantium, there was a strong German effort to convert the Slavic population in Moravia to the Roman Catholic faith. Their teachings however were in Latin, and as a result, in 862 or 863, the Moravian Prince Rostislav sent to the Byzantine Emperor Michael III for a "bishop and a teacher," saying, "My people have rejected paganism and hold the Christian law, but we do not have a teacher who could preach to us in our own native tongue." The Emperor quickly chose to send Constantine, accompanied by his brother Methodius, justifying his decision with the words "You two are from Salonika, and all Thessalonians speak pure Slavonic." Constantine immediately composed an alphabet and with his brother began the process of translating the Gospels into Slavonic. It appears that, at the time, the Slavonic dialects were little enough differentiated so that a translation could be made which would be broadly intelligible.



It is consensus of modern Scholars. I would personaly love to be proven they were Slavs. But there is no proof fo it. :)

But there is absolutely nothing that disproves it. Furthermore, what indicates that they were 'Greeks'?

Neo-Greeks love to portray any influential people as Greeks, in this case it's Kiril and Metodij who 'taught the barbaric and dumb Slavs how to read and right' :rolleyes:

[Dengizik]

:picard2: As much as Bulgarian is similar to Belorussian or Czech or even Lithuanian...:picard2: if we consider the group Balto-slavic...

Its because Belorussians and Czechs are Bulgars in denial.

[Linet]

But there is absolutely nothing that disproves it. Furthermore, what indicates that they were 'Greeks'?

Neo-Greeks love to portray any influential people as Greeks, in this case it's Kiril and Metodij who 'taught the barbaric and dumb Slavs how to read and right' :rolleyes:

You sound desperate :chin:

[Twistedmind]

Historians will laugh at you if you say that Cyrilic is actually Greek+some other letters. These two alphabets are totally different. That's why the Cyrilic alphabet is not considered as some kind of "Slavic variant" of the Greek alphabet.


:picard1:
Not really, modern forms of two alphabets are graphicaly different, but order of letters is same, and Cyrillic is adaptation of Greek uncial script for Slavic languages. I allready told you look at manuscripts. It is impossible to distinguish, for people who dont have basic input in paleography and OCS and Koine Greek.
Let me use your logic a bit

Swedish alphabet is acctually Latin+some other letters. Two alphabets are totaly different




And the fact that it's developed in the Bulgarian empire with the support of the Bulgarian emperor, makes this alphabet 100% Bulgarian.

Not, rullers had nothing to do with Cyrillic. It was done by one monk, and Cyrillic did not gain popularity till XI century. Why are you discussing this, when obviously do not know lot about Slavistics?

[Vojnik]

You sound desperate :chin:

Not desperate at all. I'm actually quite confident in my assumptions.

[Linet]

Not desperate at all. I'm actually quite confident in my assumptions.

Like the fact that you are "Macedonian"? :chin:...you dont know history anyway :noidea:....stop trying to show like you do :no:

Half knoweldge is worse than zero knoweldge....because he who know half truth will assume the rest and create a lie....your case....:thumb001:

[Vojnik]

Like the fact that you are "Macedonian"? :chin:...you dont know history anyway :noidea:....stop trying to show like you do :no:

Half knoweldge is worse than zero knoweldge....because he who know half truth will assume the rest and create a lie....your case....:thumb001:

If what I said is not the truth, then why not try disprove it?

[Archduke]

Let me use your logic a bit

:picard1::picard1:

The Cyrilic script and the Greek alphabet are two different writing systems, accept this fact.

The Swedish alphabet is part of the Latin alphabets just like Serbian and Bulgarian alphabets are part of the Cyrilic script along with Russian, Mongolian, Ukrainian etc.



Not, rullers had nothing to do with Cyrillic. It was done by one monk, and Cyrillic did not gain popularity till XI century. Why are you discussing this, when obviously do not know lot about Slavistics?

The Preslav school was under the protectorate of Simeon the Great, so you are wrong.

[Twistedmind]

The Cyrilic script and the Greek alphabet are two different writing systems, accept this fact.
Cyrillic is Greek Alphabet adapted for Old Church Slavonic. Your smilies wont change that fact.





The Preslav school was under the protectorate of Simeon the Great,

So? What is his role in making of Cyrillic? Exactly nothing. Your aguments are funny at best.

[Queen B]

but what is known of their father is that his name was Lev (leo), which is Slavic.
His father's name was Leon, which is OBVIOUSLY Greek :picard1:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_%28given_name%29)


It is confirmed that they are at least half Slav from their mothers
All the sources say it is possible that their mother was Slav.

Again, have a look what the Byzantine Emperor Michael III said when choosing Cyril and Methodius to take on the mission in Moravia.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but this quote comes from a book called '' Byzantium and the Slavs'' and it was written by a Moravian biographer who never steped foot in the Balkans and lived 150-200 years after Cyril and Methodius.
http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l339/kolonea/Runciman1.gif
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/cabasilas19.gif
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/cabasilas20.gif
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/cabasilas21.gif
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/cabasilas22.gif
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/cabasilas23.gif
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/cabassymeon.gif
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/cyrilmethodiusforsuregrgd0.jpg

[Linet]

If what I said is not the truth, then why not try disprove it?

Me as well as Dandelion already replied to that :rolleyes:....read our posts, i wont :no: rewrite :typing:the same things because you are too lazy :bored: to scroll up or go a page back.

[bimo]

how much complex towards bulgarians...

archduke post a source from wikipedia wich is the most important source of data on internet , so just accept that

[Archduke]

Cyrillic is Greek Alphabet adapted for Old Church Slavonic. Your smilies wont change that fact.

In this case the Latin aphabet is also Greek and both are Phoenician. :lol:

Cyrilic is Cyrilic. It's a different alphabet than the Greek one thanks to Bulgarians. Like it or not, Greeks have nothing to do with this at all.


So? What is his role in making of Cyrillic? Exactly nothing. Your aguments are funny at best.

It's like asking what is the role of Dusan for making Serbia with her greater territories.

[bimo]

In this case the Latin aphabet is also Greek and both are Phoenician. :lol:

Cyrilic is Cyrilic. It's a different alphabet than the Greek one thanks to Bulgarians.

this ;)

[Twistedmind]

In this case the Latin aphabet is also Greek and both are Phoenician. :lol:
:picard1:
Phoenician alphabet had no vowels :P



Cyrilic is Cyrilic. It's a different alphabet than the Greek one


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Lectionary_183_folio_2.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Archangel_Gospel_03.jpg

:rolleyes:




thanks to Bulgarians.


Thanks to Bulgarians? Not. Thanks to one Bulgarian yes. Youa re Bulgarian and you have nothing to do with it.



It's like asking what is the role of Dusan for making Serbia with her greater territories.
:picard1:
It is retarded comparsion. You are making politician responsable for cultural improvment :rotfl2

[bimo]

Thanks to Bulgarians? Not. Thanks to one Bulgarian yes. Youa re Bulgarian and you have nothing to do with it.


i don't agree on that
nothing wrong if he said "thanks to bulgarians" , he is just proud for that
for example i would never say to serbs that they shouldn't be pruod for nikola tesla because he was just one serbs , nikola tesla was a great inventor and part of serbian national history and of course serbs must be proud for him

[Twistedmind]

i don't agree on that
nothing wrong if he said "thanks to bulgarians" , he is just proud for that
for example i would never say to serbs that they shouldn't be pruod for nikola tesla because he was just one serbs , nikola tesla was a great inventor and part of serbian national history and of course serbs must be proud for him

I partialy agree with you. Bulgarians should be extreemly proud on Kosntantin of Preslav. But ascribing some great achievment to entire people...
I am proud on Tesla and his work. But honestly, other Serbs are not resposnable for that achievment, that was my point. :)

[morski]

I partialy agree with you. Bulgarians should be extreemly proud on Kosntantin of Preslav. But ascribing some great achievment to entire people...
I am proud on Tesla and his work. But honestly, other Serbs are not resposnable for that achievment, that was my point. :)

Tesla didn't do it in Serbia by appointment of the Serb king.

[Archduke]

I partialy agree with you. Bulgarians should be extreemly proud on Kosntantin of Preslav. But ascribing some great achievment to entire people...
I am proud on Tesla and his work. But honestly, other Serbs are not resposnable for that achievment, that was my point. :)

You think very wrong.

If things were like you say, then none of the nations contributed to the world, it's just personalities.That's something i would never agree.

[Twistedmind]

Tesla didn't do it in Serbia by appointment of the Serb king.

Symeon have nothing with that. He just build them place to live. Symeon was verry supportive of introduction Greek as language of liturgy in his state. Remmebr Слово о писменах. :bored:
PS
Dont you see this is not Serbs being butthurted against you. It is Bulgarians, Albanians and Onur. Unholly alliance. On other hand, I do not negate credits, you have reason to be proud, just dont adjust it in way to look more splendid than it is.

[bella1407]

yes.

[morski]

Symeon have nothing with that. He just build them place to live. Symeon was verry supportive of introduction Greek as language of liturgy in his state. Remmebr Слово о писменах. :bored:
PS
Dont you see this is not Serbs being butthurted against you. It is Bulgarians, Albanians and Onur. Unholly alliance. On other hand, I do not negate credits, you have reason to be proud, just dont adjust it in way to look more splendid than it is.

I think you are wrong.


During Simeon's reign, Bulgaria reached its cultural apogee, becoming the literary and spiritual centre of Slavic Europe.[3][104] In this respect, Simeon continued his father Boris' policy of establishing and spreading Slavic culture and attracting noted scholars and writers within Bulgaria's borders. It was in the Preslav Literary School and Ohrid Literary School, founded under Boris, that the main literary work in Bulgaria was concentrated during the reign of Simeon.[105]

The late 9th and early 10th century constitute the earliest and most productive period of medieval Bulgarian literature.[105] Having spent his early years in Constantinople, Simeon introduced Byzantine culture to the Bulgarian court, but eliminated its assimilative effect by means of military power and religious autonomy.[105] The disciples of Cyril and Methodius, among whom Clement of Ohrid, Naum and Constantine of Preslav, continued their educational work in Bulgaria, actively translating Christian texts, such as the Bible and the works of John Chrysostom, Basil of Caesarea, Cyril of Alexandria, Gregory of Nazianzus, Athanasius of Alexandria, as well as historic chronicles such as these of John Malalas and George Hamartolus, to Bulgarian.[105] The reign of Simeon also witnessed the production of a number of original theological and secular works, such as John Exarch's Six Days (Šestodnev), Constantine of Preslav's Alphabetical Prayer and Proclamation of the Holy Gospels, and Černorizec Hrabǎr's An Account of Letters.[105] Simeon's own contribution to this literary blossoming was praised by his contemporaries, for example in the Praise to Tsar Simeon preserved in the Zlatostruj collection and Simeon's Collection,[104] to which the tsar personally wrote an addendum.[106]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria#Culture_and_religion

[Twistedmind]

Again Wikipedia experts but since you insist:


and Černorizec Hrabǎr's An Account of Letters. What do you think I was think about when I said: Слово об писменах?

[morski]

Again Wikipedia experts but since you insist:

What do you think I was think about when I said: Слово об писменах?

I knew what you refered to, so?

[Twistedmind]

I knew what you refered to, so?

Read it. ;)

[morski]

Read it. ;)

I've studied it in highschool.

[Trun]

This seems to be some new mania on the Balkans:

Serbs (Shumadians) claim Slavs (aka Serbs) are native to the Balkans, they are the tallest, the blondest, have the biggest dicks, Bulgarians are Tatars etc...

Fyromians (aka brainwashed Macedono-Bulgarians) claim Alexander the Great, Gotse Delchev, Madonna, Michael Jackson are/were all their people, also Bulgarians are Tatars, fascist occupators, etc...

Albanians (aka Shiptars) claim to be 5000000000 year old ethnicity, the oldest on the Balkans, the oldest in the world, also Bulgarians are invaders, because they are Slavs, etc...

Greeks (aka Malakas) claim to have created the world, all civilizations started because of Greeks, Greeks even are in the foundations of the Mayan civilization. Bulgarians are invaders, because they are Slavs (familiar?), they were uneducated Barbarians and because of Greeks, now they have culture, script, etc (and also Bulgarians are the ugliest people in Europe), etc...

Interesting how Bulgarians are the lowest quality, the scum of earth. Probably because we have never claimed we are the oldest, or that everything started from us. We, as objective people, don't even claim the computer as Bulgarian invention (John Atanasoff was American and he created the computer in America, for Americans).

But our dear southern neighbors would have gone that far, that I'd expect them soon to say that Herakles's farts were the prototype for Bulgarian bagpipe sounds :rolleyes:

Cyrilic was developed in Bulgaria, by Slavs, for Slavs, using Byzantine's (of Greco-Slavic origin) script as prototype. Greeks has as much rights to claim Cyrilic alphabet as Greek as I have on dandelion's or Linet's musaka.

[Queen B]

Greeks (aka Malakas) claim to have created the world, all civilizations started because of Greeks, Greeks even are in the foundations of the Mayan civilization. Bulgarians are invaders, because they are Slavs (familiar?), they were uneducated Barbarians and because of Greeks, now they have culture, script, etc (and also Bulgarians are the ugliest people in Europe), etc...

Butthurt much, Malaka?

[Twistedmind]

This seems to be some new mania on the Balkans:

Serbs (Shumadians) claim Slavs (aka Serbs) are native to the Balkans, they are the tallest, the blondest, have the biggest dicks, Bulgarians are Tatars etc...

Fyromians (aka brainwashed Macedono-Bulgarians) claim Alexander the Great, Gotse Delchev, Madonna, Michael Jackson are/were all their people, also Bulgarians are Tatars, fascist occupators, etc...

Albanians (aka Shiptars) claim to be 5000000000 year old ethnicity, the oldest on the Balkans, the oldest in the world, also Bulgarians are invaders, because they are Slavs, etc...

Greeks (aka Malakas) claim to have created the world, all civilizations started because of Greeks, Greeks even are in the foundations of the Mayan civilization. Bulgarians are invaders, because they are Slavs (familiar?), they were uneducated Barbarians and because of Greeks, now they have culture, script, etc (and also Bulgarians are the ugliest people in Europe), etc...

Interesting how Bulgarians are the lowest quality, the scum of earth. Probably because we have never claimed we are the oldest, or that everything started from us. We, as objective people, don't even claim the computer as Bulgarian invention (John Atanasoff was American and he created the computer in America, for Americans).

But our dear southern neighbors would have gone that far, that I'd expect them soon to say that Herakles's farts were the prototype for Bulgarian bagpipe sounds :rolleyes:

Cyrilic was developed in Bulgaria, by Slavs, for Slavs, using Byzantine's (of Greco-Slavic origin) script as prototype. Greeks has as much rights to claim Cyrilic alphabet as Greek as I have on dandelion's or Linet's musaka.
You really have obsession with Serbs. :D And lot of holes in education.

[ioan assen]

Again Wikipedia experts but since you insist:

What do you think I was think about when I said: Слово об писменах?
Lets see your "interpretation". I reread it and За буквите doesnt mention Simeon The Great! To claim that Simeon didnt do a thing for the spread of Bulgarian alphabeth is beyond reduculous and shows either lack of knowledge or reading too much Serbian propaganda. Actually one of the theories says that the author of Za bukvite was Simeon himself writing it under a pseudonym. Simeon was one of the most educated people at that time: he studied at the Magnaura school in Constantinopole and was even called for his wit "half Greek" :picard1::picard1:

[Twistedmind]

Lets see your "interpretation". I reread it and За буквите doesnt mention Simeon The Great! To claim that Simeon didnt do a thing for the spread of Bulgarian alphabeth is beyond reduculous and shows either lack of knowledge or reading too much Serbian propaganda. Actually one of the theories says that the author of Za bukvite was Simeon himself writing it under a pseudonym. Simeon was one of the most educated people at that time: he studied at the Magnaura school in Constantinopole and was even called for his wit "half Greek" :picard1::picard1:

Tell me did I used harsh words towards you not? Altough I am only person here who acctually knows something about all. If you want to speak about propaganda, I could a bit. Entire this thread could be classified as such. But, lets stay on topic. What do you think why one monk would wrote tractat about defense of Slavic letters (Glagolitic tough), if he lived under ruler benevolent towards Slavic literacy? :picard1: Why he would be anonimous?
And please when trying to disciuss something about history leave your childish frustrations over Serbs for other places. I did not insult Bulgarian people not once. But obviously to you it is insult if somebody does not hold your opinion. Guess hwat, go and kill thousands of acedmicans over the world, since they mostly share my views.

[bimo]

This seems to be some new mania on the Balkans:

Serbs (Shumadians) claim Slavs (aka Serbs) are native to the Balkans, they are the tallest, the blondest, have the biggest dicks, Bulgarians are Tatars etc...

Fyromians (aka brainwashed Macedono-Bulgarians) claim Alexander the Great, Gotse Delchev, Madonna, Michael Jackson are/were all their people, also Bulgarians are Tatars, fascist occupators, etc...

Albanians (aka Shiptars) claim to be 5000000000 year old ethnicity, the oldest on the Balkans, the oldest in the world, also Bulgarians are invaders, because they are Slavs, etc...

Greeks (aka Malakas) claim to have created the world, all civilizations started because of Greeks, Greeks even are in the foundations of the Mayan civilization. Bulgarians are invaders, because they are Slavs (familiar?), they were uneducated Barbarians and because of Greeks, now they have culture, script, etc (and also Bulgarians are the ugliest people in Europe), etc...

Interesting how Bulgarians are the lowest quality, the scum of earth. Probably because we have never claimed we are the oldest, or that everything started from us. We, as objective people, don't even claim the computer as Bulgarian invention (John Atanasoff was American and he created the computer in America, for Americans).

But our dear southern neighbors would have gone that far, that I'd expect them soon to say that Herakles's farts were the prototype for Bulgarian bagpipe sounds :rolleyes:

Cyrilic was developed in Bulgaria, by Slavs, for Slavs, using Byzantine's (of Greco-Slavic origin) script as prototype. Greeks has as much rights to claim Cyrilic alphabet as Greek as I have on dandelion's or Linet's musaka.

those who thinks that about bulgaria are just fanatics without social life, i don't care so much for them :)

greeks think bulgarians are ugly , i don't care too since greeks believe those gipsy who that say them they are real bulgarians and mostly "bulgarians" in greece are gipsy, just see what greek post as bulgarians on anthroforum , plus in my opinion greek average is not better looking than bulgarian both female and male

[Linet]

Greeks claim to have created the world, all civilizations started because of Greeks, Greeks even are in the foundations of the Mayan civilization. Bulgarians are invaders, because they are Slavs (familiar?), they were uneducated Barbarians and because of Greeks, now they have culture, script, etc , etc...

Oh you :icon_redface:...I suppose you just state facts :eyes...thanks
But...come on, we didnt put the foundations of the Mayans :no000000:...first of all they werent even that civilised :viking:, they were sacrifising people :rip:, no maths,no physics :icon_ask:...if we have founded their civilisation we would have done better job :cool:....Look how good we did with you and the alphabet, religion, architecture and the churches etc :wink....
Oh well, then Turks came and messed all up...but our job was still good :joy


(and also Bulgarians are the ugliest people in Europe)

Oh no, you arent :no:...we dont consider you ugly anyway :noidea: (who ever said that?)

[ioan assen]

Tell me did I used harsh words towards you not?
No and I m sorry if I have sounded harsh. It was not my intention, because I think you are quite rational, educated and pleasant poster. I dont think I did insult you personally of if I did - it wasnt intentional.

Altough I am only person here who acctually knows something about all.

True, I agree. Most posters coulnt distinguish cyrillic and glagolic. And you also knew Cyrillic was invented in Preslav.

If you want to speak about propaganda, I could a bit. Entire this thread could be classified as such.
I disagree. The question is legitimate: an alphabeth invented within Bulgaria in a literacy school created and funded by Bulgarian zars for the Bulgarian language and Bulgarian books is Bulgarian alphabeth. Its not a propaganda, but rather a fact.


But, lets stay on topic. What do you think why one monk would wrote tractat about defense of Slavic letters (Glagolitic tough), if he lived under ruler benevolent towards Slavic literacy?
Uou!!! He did have quite a lot of reasons! I suppose you have heard about the prevailing idea in the world that only three languages are devine: Greek, Latin and Hebrew. I think thats more than a reason to write this work. Simeon was more than belevolent towards Slavic literacy! In his reihn the biggest development of the slavic literacy took place, most of the works are written at his time!:picard1:


:picard1: Why he would be anonimous?
Its one of the most famous thories about Chernorizec Hrabar - his name sound like a pseudonym.


And please when trying to disciuss something about history leave your childish frustrations over Serbs for other places. I did not insult Bulgarian people not once. But obviously to you it is insult if somebody does not hold your opinion. Guess hwat, go and kill thousands of acedmicans over the world, since they mostly share my views.
I dont have fustration over Serbs, only over CERTAIN Serbs here and deffinately not over you. I havent insulted you and I dont think any real historian can hold the view that Simeon was not belevolent towards Slavic literacy! :picard2:

[morski]

I am only person here who acctually knows something about all.

Oke, God!:picard1::D:laugh:


What do you think why one monk would wrote tractat about defense of Slavic letters (Glagolitic tough), if he lived under ruler benevolent towards Slavic literacy?

That's a rather frivolous speculation on your part and there are no scholars whatsoever who would agree with you as far as I'm aware. It's not only lightminded to state that Simeon I was against Slavic literacy and in favour of Greekl language, but it is outright stupid or serving an agenda.

You seem to completely lack any knowledge about the circumstances surrounding the Christianization of Bulgaria and the introduction of the Old Bulgarian language, the Glagolitic and the Cyrillic scripts, i.e. you are unable to comprehend the Zeitgeist.

Your claim is rather bizarre, bordering absurdity and I'll now try to briefly outline why it is so.

We are concerned here with two events which are intrinsically tied with eachother - Christianization and introduction of Old Bulgarian as the standard official state language.

In its early stage the First Bulgarian Empire was using Byzantine Greek as its official language. That is evident from the domestic sources of the time, which are mostly petroglyphs. At the same time there was no single state religion. There were Greek Orthodox Christians, Arians, Pagans and even Zoroastrianists.

During the reign of St. Tsar Boris I The Baptist (The historian Steven Runciman called him one of the greatest persons in history.) the FBE was forced to adopt Christianity as a concenssion to a peace treaty with the Byzantines after several unsuccessful military campaigns.

The Bulgarians reluctantly agreed to this and in the next several decades the Bulgarian diplomacy's objective of paramount importance was to secure such an arrangement surrounding the imminent Christianization as to retain the sovereignty and independence of the state after it was implemented. This means that the ruling elite in Pliska was afraid that their authority would be undermined and the state would succumb to overwhelming Byzantine influence.

That's the reason why Boris played the Vatican against Constantinople for some time corresponding with both and inviting missionaries from both centres untill he got the most favourable conditions from the Byzantines. We could have easily been Catholics today if the Byzantines did not agree to granting the bulgarian church autocephaly.

Prior to the middle of the 9th century, in the practice of the formally united Church, there were no precedents for creating national churches among newly converted peoples. Bulgaria created this precedent and set the example for others to follow.

The creation of an independent Bulgarian Archbishopric was unprecedented in the practice of the Churches. Usually, independent churches were those founded by apostles or apostles' students. For a long period, Rome had been challenging Constantinople's claim of equality to Rome, on the grounds that the Church of Constantinople had not been founded by an apostle of Christ.

Just six years after his conversion, the Orthodox Church granted Knyaz Boris a national independent church and a high-ranking supreme representative (the Archbishop). In the next 10 years, Pope Adrian II and his successors made desperate attempts to regain their influence in Bulgaria and to persuade Knyaz Boris to leave Constantinople's sphere.

The foundations of the Bulgarian national Church had been set. The next stage was the implementation of Cyrillic and the Old Bulgarian language, as the official language of the Bulgarian Church and State in 893 AD during the Council of Preslav. Such nationalization of the church and liturgy was exceptional and not at all part of the practice of other European Christians.

Now we come to the adoption of Slavic as the liturgical and state language in the FBE. We all know the story. The language was codified by two Byzantine monks from Thessaloniki - Saints Cyril and Methodius, who standardized its grammar and enriched it with calques from Byzantine Greek in order to facilitate the translation of the Bible. Their Moravian mission failed and since some of their disciples were Bulgarians they found refuge in the FBE, where they continued the deed. The Bulgarian Knyaz set up two literary centers at Pliska-Preslav and Ohrid. The reason behind the decision to adopt Slavic as the official language is more than obvious - Slavic was the lingua franca of the Empire from its start.

Now comes the tricky part, the topic of this thread. Initially as we know Old bulgarian was written in the glagolitic script developped by Cyril and Methodius, but it was replaced in Bulgaria in the late 9th century by the Cyrillic alphabet, which was in turn developped in the Preslav literary school under commission of Knyaz Boris I.

The Glagolitic continued to be used in Croatia for example and one might argue that it is the true Slavic alphabet, but Cyrillic is without a doubt the Bulgarian script, developped in Bulgaria for the purposes of the Bulgarian government.

Now regarding "Za bukvite" by Chernorizec Hrabar, this text is known from late Russian copies, the earliest of which is from around the 14th century. It's not possible to say which parts of it are from the original and which later additions. The theory that it is a reaction to the replacement of the Glagolitic with the Cyrillic script is also just that - a theory. What is certain is that the Cyrillic came to be thanks to the Bulgarian royal court and the Bulgarian scholars, who developped it.

And to end this rather long post for my taste - the reign of Simeon I is universally know in historiography as the Golden Age of Bulgarian (Slavic) literacy, the Tsar himself participated actively in this process including as an author. You claiming he was in favour of using the Greek language is ludicrous.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Culture_of_the_First_Bulgarian_Empire.png

[Twistedmind]

Its one of the most famous thories about Chernorizec Hrabar - his name sound like a pseudonym.

Yep. It could not be name. Črnorizac means monk (man wearing black mantle) and Hrabar means curageous. He had good reason to use such symbolic name.



I dont have fustration over Serbs, only over CERTAIN Serbs here and deffinately not over you. I havent insulted you and I dont think any real historian can hold the view that Simeon was not belevolent towards Slavic literacy!

My point was Symeon had political motives, ie conquering of Constantinople. He wanted to reinforce Byzantine influence in Bulgaria, having prospects of being Byzantine Emperor himself, at least as protector of infant Constantine VII. I was not bashing Bulgarians. I jsut said, Symeon as shrewd politician played multiple games.

PS
Morski, no need for walls of texts, anone could find Wikipedia article.

[morski]

PS
Morski, no need for walls of texts, anone could find Wikipedia article.

Only the text in the spoiler tags is from Wikipedia, the rest is mine.

[Twistedmind]

The Glagolitic continued to be used in Croatia for example and one might argue that it is the true Slavic alphabet, but Cyrillic is without a doubt the Bulgarian script, developped in Bulgaria for the purposes of the Bulgarian government.

It is unicial Greek script with 14 additionla letters for specific Slavic sounds. Additional letters were compiled from Glagolitic or Middle Eastern Alphabets. You could claim till tommorow it is something essentially new, but you dont have arguments for such claim. It was made by monks for liturgical needs of Church. You have some document of Symeon or Boris written in it?




Now regarding "Za bukvite" by Chernorizec Hrabar, this text is known from late Russian copies, the earliest of which is from around the 14th century.


It is not "Za bukvite", but "Slovo ob pismeneh" or just "О писмєньхъ". Earliest copy which you mentioned was written in Bulgaria.




It's not possible to say which parts of it are from the original and which later additions.


It is not argument. We do not speak about some enormous book, but rather of short and concise tractat.




The theory that it is a reaction to the replacement of the Glagolitic with the Cyrillic script is also just that - a theory.

I was not reffering on that theory acctually. :bored: He speaks in defense of Slavic literacy, not in defense of Glagolitic.



What is certain is that the Cyrillic came to be thanks to the Bulgarian royal court and the Bulgarian scholars, who developped it.

Bulgarian royal court used Greek in its edicts from that time.

[morski]

It is unicial Greek script with 14 additionla letters for specific Slavic sounds. Additional letters were compiled from Glagolitic or Middle Eastern Alphabets. You could claim till tommorow it is something essentially new, but you dont have arguments for such claim. It was made by monks for liturgical needs of Church. You have some document of Symeon or Boris written in it?

You didn't read my post very carefully, now, did you? Everything regarding the Christianization was state policy, including the developpment and adoption of the Cyrillic script. It doesn't matter whether it was essentially new or not, what matters is that it was done in Bulgaria for Bulgarian purposes, after all the Christianization of Bulgaria was a precedent in the Medieval world, the first national church was established by the Bulgarians. Furthermore, it might have started as a variation of the Greek uncial script, but it got a life of its own and is now a different alphabet.



It is not "Za bukvite", but "Slovo ob pismeneh" or just "О писмєньхъ". Earliest copy which you mentioned was written in Bulgaria.

It is known in Bulgaria under this name.



It is not argument. We do not speak about some enormous book, but rather of short and concise tractat.

Nevertheless, because of the great chronological periods between the copies and the fact that the original is lost it is hard to establish which parts of the text are variations produced by the copying and which are later interpolations.




I was not reffering on that theory acctually. :bored: He speaks in defense of Slavic literacy, not in defense of Glagolitic.

Ok, in that case it is pretty straightforward - the author advocates the right of the Slavic literacy to exist alongside the hGreek and Hebrew ones. Nothing to do with a supposed favourization of Greek over Slavic by Simeon I - that's just in your imagination.


Bulgarian royal court used Greek in its edicts from that time.

Which time? After the adoption of Old Bulgarian and the Cyrillic script, the state started using those in official documents.

[Twistedmind]

You didn't read my post very carefully, now, did you? Everything regarding the Christianization was state policy, including the developpment and adoption of the Cyrillic script. It doesn't matter whether it was essentially new or not, what it matters is that it was done in Bulgaria for Bulgarian purposes, after all the Christianization of Bulgaria was a precedent in the Medieval world, the first national church was established by the Bulgarians.
Ehm, not. Armenians. Than, Byzantine Empire, than various monophysites, than than than...
Like I said, Cyrillic was built on personal initiative. Not on state.



Furthermore, it might have started as a variation of the Greek uncial script, but it got a life of its own and is now a different alphabet.

They got diverged in XVIII century. Peter the Great would be then credited as inventor. :bored:



It is known in Bulgaria under this name.

We are not discussing in Bulgarian.





Nevertheless, because of the great chronological periods between the copies and the fact that the original is lost it is hard to establish which parts of the text are variations produced by the copying and which are later interpolations.

Your words would have sense if that was not 3 freaking pages.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/1WFVu7OmLUIaon5mhRMMY39Ph1cahnf5aACEvJaaSKG9I2Rfpn FD8zTlg_J-A/edit?hl=en&pli=1
So honestly, stop using ridiculous claims.



Do you read your nonsensces?
In one sentence you claim:


the author advocates the right of the Slavic literacy to exist alongside the hGreek and Hebrew ones.

In verry next



Nothing to do with a supposed favourization of Greek over Slavic by Simeon I - that's just in your imagination.


PS It speaks about Latin as well.




Which time? After the adoption of Old Bulgarian and the Cyrillic script, the state started using those in official documents.
That language was not Old Bulgarian. Before XIX century, not even Bulgarians called it Old Bulgarian. :picard1:

[ioan assen]

My point was Symeon had political motives, ie conquering of Constantinople. He wanted to reinforce Byzantine influence in Bulgaria, having prospects of being Byzantine Emperor himself, at least as protector of infant Constantine VII. I was not bashing Bulgarians. I jsut said, Symeon as shrewd politician played multiple games.
Oh now I see the point you are making. You are right that he was quite obsessed with the Constantinopole throne, but I dont think there are any indication he was against slavic literature and in favour of the Byzantine one. Actually his role as a protector of slavic literacy and his personal contribution to the slav culture as a whole was never denied, actually I think its universally accepted.
He and his slavic school was a part of The Slav Epic (in Czech: Slovanská epopej) - a cycle of 20 large canvases painted by Czech Art Nouveau painter Alfons Mucha between 1910 and 1928. The cycle depicts the history of Czechs and other Slavic peoples. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slav_Epic
The picture is called The Morning Star of Slavonic Literature:
http://paintingdb.com/art/l/6/5266.jpg
So according to the Czechs he and his school affected all slavs.

[Twistedmind]

He is for sure deserving for Slavic literacy, I just said he had few visions on his mind. But Cyrillic is work of Bulgarian monks not kings.

[morski]

Ehm, not. Armenians. Than, Byzantine Empire, than various monophysites, than than than...
Like I said, Cyrillic was built on personal initiative. Not on state.

It couldn't have been initiated by a person. These matters were of grave importance to the state. We are talking here about an Empire with a central government.

Regarding the status of the early Christian churches:


Prior to the middle of the 9th century, in the practice of the formally united Church, there were no precedents for creating national churches among newly converted peoples. Bulgaria created this precedent and set the example for others to follow.

The creation of an independent Bulgarian Archbishopric was unprecedented in the practice of the Churches. Usually, independent churches were those founded by apostles or apostles' students. For a long period, Rome had been challenging Constantinople's claim of equality to Rome, on the grounds that the Church of Constantinople had not been founded by an apostle of Christ.

Just six years after his conversion, the Orthodox Church granted Knyaz Boris a national independent church and a high-ranking supreme representative (the Archbishop). In the next 10 years, Pope Adrian II and his successors made desperate attempts to regain their influence in Bulgaria and to persuade Knyaz Boris to leave Constantinople's sphere.

The foundations of the Bulgarian national Church had been set. The next stage was the implementation of Cyrillic and the Old Bulgarian language, as the official language of the Bulgarian Church and State in 893 AD during the Council of Preslav. Such nationalization of the church and liturgy was exceptional and not at all part of the practice of other European Christians.


They got diverged in XVIII century. Peter the Great would be then credited as inventor. :bored:

He changed the orthography and the number of letters in use.

Now if you let me use a metaphor - Is Skoda a Czech or a German car?


We are not discussing in Bulgarian.

I stand corrected.




Your words would have sense if that was not 3 freaking pages.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/1WFVu7OmLUIaon5mhRMMY39Ph1cahnf5aACEvJaaSKG9I2Rfpn FD8zTlg_J-A/edit?hl=en&pli=1
So honestly, stop using ridiculous claims.



Do you read your nonsensces?
In one sentence you claim:



In verry next



PS It speaks about Latin as well.

I dpn't see any contradiction whatsoever. Where exactly does Chernorizec Hrabar claim that Simeon I favoured Greek over Slavic? A quote will be greatly appreciated.

Honestly, for me it is totally irrelevant to the question at hand. I'm only debating it because you brought it up and I cannot at all agree that it somehow implies that Simeon was neglecting Slavic literacy in favour of Greek one, this claim is just ludicrous as I already stated.





That language was not Old Bulgarian. Before XIX century, not even Bulgarians called it Old Bulgarian. :picard1:

The Byzantine empire was also not called Byzantium at the time, so?

That language is precisely Old Bulgarian. When we follow the history of the Bulgarian language Old Church Slavonic in its Bulgarian redaction is its first stage, i.e. Old Bulgarian.

[ioan assen]

Ehm, not. Armenians. Than, Byzantine Empire, than various monophysites, than than than...
Like I said, Cyrillic was built on personal initiative. Not on state.
True, Armenian is the first christian national church. But it aint orthodox or catholic. Byzantine empire was not a nationstate... Although I agree the Greek element was prevailing. Maybe Bulgarian church was the first national european church...


That language was not Old Bulgarian. Before XIX century, not even Bulgarians called it Old Bulgarian. :picard1:
The language is Old Bulgarian, because its the ansestor of Bulgarian and modern Bulgarian (and Macedonian) derived from it - a fact proven since 18th century by German linguists. Yet to be disputed or proven wrong.

[morski]

Here is the order of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_organization#Autocephalous_Orthodo x_churches

[morski]

He is for sure deserving for Slavic literacy, I just said he had few visions on his mind. But Cyrillic is work of Bulgarian monks not kings.

That along with the fact that it was done within the borders of the FBE using resources granted by the Bulgarian monarchs and with their consent, as well as the indisputable fact that everyone else got it later on from the Bulgarians is enough to call it a Bulgarian alphabet. Every objection to that brought up in this thread so far is superficial and screams nationalistic frustrations.

[Twistedmind]

The language is Old Bulgarian, because its the ansestor of Bulgarian and modern Bulgarian (and Macedonian) derived from it - a fact proven since 18th century by German linguists. Yet to be disputed or proven wrong.

No it is not proven. It was theory from XIX century and nobody accepts it. Language was based on dialect which does not exist anymore. Bulgarian today was based on Eastern Bulgarian dialects. Macedoniann on Bitola.
That dialect was based on dialect of Slavs who never were Bulgarians. Do you realise it?



Yet to be disputed or proven wrong.

Not. You wont find any non-Bulgarian professor of Slavistics who will say it is old Bulgarian.


The name of the language in Old Church Slavonic texts was simply Slavic (словѣ́ньскъ ѩзꙑ́къ, slověnĭskŭ językŭ),[50] derived from the word for Slavs (словѣ́нє, slověne), the self-designation of the compilers of the texts. This name is preserved in the modern names of the Slovak and Slovene languages. The language is sometimes called Old Slavic, which may be confused with the distinct Proto-Slavic language. The commonly accepted terms in modern English-language Slavic studies are Old Church Slavonic and Old Church Slavic.

Historically, a few now-obsolete[51] names have also been used:

* Old Bulgarian[52] is the only designation used by Bulgarian-language writers. Outside of Bulgaria, Old Bulgarian (German: Altbulgarisch) was used in the 19th century by August Schleicher, Martin Hattala, Leopold Geitler and August Leskien[53][54] who noted similarities between the first literary Slavic works and the modern Bulgarian language. For similar reasons, Russian linguist Aleksandr Vostokov used the term Slav-Bulgarian.
* Old Macedonian[55][56][57][58] is occasionally used by Western scholars for many of the same reasons, but also in a regional context.
* Old Slovenian[51][59][1][60] was used by early 19th century scholars who conjectured that the language was based on the dialect of Pannonia.




Here is the order of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchates:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_organization#Autocephalous_Orthodo x_churches



This was list, and how it is red in Churche services.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_autocephalous_and_autonomous_churches#Inte r-Orthodox_order



That language is precisely Old Bulgarian. When we follow the history of the Bulgarian language Old Church Slavonic in its Bulgarian redaction is its first stage, i.e. Old Bulgarian.

Oldest recension was Moravian. :picard1:




I dpn't see any contradiction whatsoever. Where exactly does Chernorizec Hrabar claim that Simeon I favoured Greek over Slavic? A quote will be greatly appreciated.

As lot of things in history it is assumption. But at least founded, not like your stories about use of Cyrillic on his court.



Honestly, for me it is totally irrelevant to the question at hand. I'm only debating it because you brought it up and I cannot at all agree that it somehow implies that Simeon was neglecting Slavic literacy in favour of Greek one, this claim is just ludicrous as I already stated.
It is quite rellevant, since you want to prove him as co-creator of something, and yet there is no proof for his involvemnt or even fatc that he acctually used it.

[morski]

Bulgarian today was based on Eastern Bulgarian dialects.
Wrong. Modern Bulgarian displays features from all dialects in the Analytical Balkan Slavic (aka Bulgarian) dialect continuum, including the Macedonian ones.

[morski]

This was list, and how it is red in Churche services.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_autocephalous_and_autonomous_churches#Inte r-Orthodox_order

Which is chronologically inaccurate. Probably caused by the schism between the Bulgarian Exarchate and the Constantinople Patriarchate.

But this is off topic.

[Twistedmind]

Which is chronologically inaccurate. Probably caused by the schism between the Bulgarian Exarchate and the Constantinople Patriarchate.

Not really. Order is order of current autocephalies.

Bulgarian current Autocephaly is from 1951. Offtopic or not, you started it.

[morski]

Not really. Order is order of current autocephalies.

Bulgarian current Autocephaly is from 1951.

Probably caused by the schism between the Bulgarian Exarchate and the Constantinople Patriarchate.

[morski]

Oldest recension was Moravian. :picard1:



As lot of things in history it is assumption. But at least founded, not like your stories about use of Cyrillic on his court.


It is quite rellevant, since you want to prove him as co-creator of something, and yet there is no proof for his involvemnt or even fatc that he acctually used it.

If by him you are refering to Simeon I, I never claimed he was co-creator, it was you who brought up O Pismenah in order to discredit him as co-creator, but I never claimed such a thing. Cyrillic was developped during the reign of Boris I.

Let it be Moravian. I was talking about the one which was used in the FBE and it is the Bulgarian one.

I still expect a quote from O Pismenah that implies what you claim, otherwise I will consider it being nothing but a spin of yours and will regard this topic closed.

We are now officially way off topic me thinks.

My claim remains. There is sufficient historicall evidence that warrants qualifying the Cyrillic cript as a Bulgarian one.

[Linet]

The Cyrillic alphabet was created by Greeks :coffee:
The only reason we stopped posting is because you kept spamming the same things ignoring :disapproving: historical facts :book2:
You just really want to believe your own words and ignore anythign you dont like :stop...I suppose is because of your passion to prove you did something in this world worthy....i respect that, but i just say is not true....
If you love to feel so in order to feel good, then Bulgarians can do so...go ahead...but the rest of the people know :lightbul: and they wont change their knoweldge because you wish so :eyes

[morski]

Again:


He is for sure deserving for Slavic literacy, I just said he had few visions on his mind. But Cyrillic is work of Bulgarian monks not kings.

That along with the fact that it was done within the borders of the FBE using resources granted by the Bulgarian monarchs and with their consent, as well as the indisputable fact that everyone else got it later on from the Bulgarians is enough to call it a Bulgarian alphabet. Every objection to that brought up in this thread so far is superficial and screams nationalistic frustrations.

And the metaphor again: Is Skoda a Czech or a German car?

[Twistedmind]

Let it be Moravian. I was talking about the one which was used in the FBE and it is the Bulgarian one.


What is FBE?



I still expect a quote from O Pismenah that implies what you claim, otherwise

Work itself is defence of Slavic literacy. According to you, Emperor was benevolent and involved in development, we are then coming to question, from whom Črnorizac Hrabar is protecting Slavic literacy? From Pope? From Byzantines? But how they were trehening him.



I will consider it being nothing but a spin of yours and will regard this topic closed.

I am not bound to prove anything. We are here discussing about Archduke's claims not mine.



We are now official way off topic me thinks.


All fo topics are started by you.




My claim remains. There is sufficient historicall evidence that warrants qualifying the Cyrillic cript as a Bulgarian one.

Why it was not quliffied as such? You wont find entry: "Bulgarian script used in X,Y, Z"
But, I could agree that it is Bulgarian inovation....

[morski]

What is FBE?


Work itself is defence of Slavic literacy. According to you, Emperor was benevolent and involved in development, we are then coming to question, from whom Črnorizac Hrabar is protecting Slavic literacy? From Pope? From Byzantines? But how they were trehening him.


I am not bound to prove anything. We are here discussing about Archduke's claims not mine.



All fo topics are started by you.




Why it was not quliffied as such? You wont find entry: "Bulgarian script used in X,Y, Z"
But, I could agree that it is Bulgarian inovation....

FBE - First Bulgarian Empire.

Yes it was in defence of the Slavic literacy in opposition to the previous status quo that only Greek, Hebrew and Latin are worthy of worshipping God.


But, I could agree that it is Bulgarian inovation....

That's prefectly satisfactory to me.

[Vulcho]

The Cyrillic alphabet was created by Greeks :coffee:


Yes, it was created by the noted Greek Klimentos Archidas (or was it Naumos Presklavis?) :)

There's no question that the Cyrillic is based on the Greek alphabet, and Greek itself is based on the Phoenician alphabet... I'm sure though that this has been mentioned countless times in this thread.

[Nadezhda89]

The Cyrilic alphabet. Bulgarian or not?
Yes, Bulgarian indeed! :)

[Nadezhda89]

The Cyrillic alphabet was created by Greeks :coffee:
The only reason we stopped posting is because you kept spamming the same things ignoring :disapproving: historical facts :book2:
You just really want to believe your own words and ignore anythign you dont like :stop...I suppose is because of your passion to prove you did something in this world worthy....i respect that, but i just say is not true....
If you love to feel so in order to feel good, then Bulgarians can do so...go ahead...but the rest of the people know :lightbul: and they wont change their knoweldge because you wish so :eyes
No! The Cyrillic alphabeth was created by Constantine of Preslav - a Bulgarian.
Cyril and Methodius who you claim that were Greeks created the Glagolitic alphabet.
The Cyrillic alphabeth and the Glagolitic alphabet - two different things.

[Linet]

No! The Cyrillic alphabeth was created by Constantine of Preslav - a Bulgarian.
Cyril and Methodius who you claim that were Greeks created the Glagolitic alphabet.
The Cyrillic alphabeth and the Glagolitic alphabet - two different things.

Yes, we agree :thumb001: ......but i know Einstain not the guy who actually created the atomic bomb....whats hard is the idea...the original thinking....after that things gets their course :wink

[Sorab]

Neither Greek or Bulgarian .Cyrillic alphabet is just a derivate of its ancient predecessor Vinčansko pismo .
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16146886/Vincansko-pismo
for comparison
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1856/vincanskopismo02.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/vincanskopismo02.gif/)
from Vinča
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1340/vinca10go.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/vinca10go.jpg/)
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7092/vinca28lq.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/vinca28lq.jpg/)
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9536/gimbutasvincaschrift8qw.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/gimbutasvincaschrift8qw.gif/)


Још je на самом крају Првог светског рата академик, пуковник Изенбек, пронашао дашчице исписане старим писмом са текстом посвећеном богу Влесу/Велесу, познате као словенска Велесова књига. Но ипак, у Југославијама, o том налазу није писано. Задржало се мишљење o словенској писмености тек од св. Ћирила и Методија. Док житије св. Константина Ћирила бележи постојање на српском језику: Јеванђеља и Псалтира, које je св. Ћирил у Херсонесу сам затекао. У том запису пише: "Нађе Јеванђеље и Псалтир, писан словенским словима и нађе човека који je говорио тим језиком, и говорећи c њим, примрго je силу речи"1
Овај изнесени податак у супротности je ca претпоставком да су св. Браћа, како су били родом из Солуна, где су, живећи на простору Срба и њихових хришћанских епархија, за очекивати je, добро познавали српски језик. Рачунајући управо на њихово познавање тог српског језика, велики патријарх Фотије (858-867; 877-886), уз цара Василија I (867-886), желећи да уважи тражење кнеза Растислава Моравског, поверио je св. Браћи да изврше покрштавање средњоевропске Моравске, као потом и Срба на Балкану. Св. Браћа су, бар тако произилази, према времену кад су пошли у Моравску, за изразито кратко време превели важне богослужбене књиге са грчког на српски језик. Па чак и Т. Маретић бележи: "А Солуњани су у оно доба говорили Славенски".2
Управо тај податак, да je св. Ћирило, преко преводиоца тек, разумео затечене свете књиге на српском језику, наводи на закључак да св. Браћа нису били Срби, али није схватљиво да у Солуну нису научили српски језик. Јер, језик Јеванђеља и Псалтира из Херсонеса je већ био на српском језику. Па, целих девет стотина година раније, Овидије, док je био у изгнанству у Тарсу (црноморски град), према његовим писмима, жалопојкама за Римом, језик који je ту у Тарсу научио - био je српски.
Р. Пешић такође бележи да je пољски краљ Болеслав Храбри (992-1025), по заузимању Кијева 1018. године: "уништио или понео са собом многа важна документа и дохришћански летопис - Великое летописание - као и Библију у рукопису, који je представљао превод из времена Јарослава Светог (9781054) од стране херсонеских преводилаца"
http://www.svevlad.org.rs/knjige_files/jovic_srbi.html

[Nadezhda89]

Yes, we agree :thumb001: ......but i know Einstain not the guy who actually created the atomic bomb....whats hard is the idea...the original thinking....after that things gets their course :wink
We actually studied the Glagolitic alphabeth at school (at 9th grade), it was very hard to learn and it was very different from Cyrillic alphabeth. Take a look:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PE_Nv2-vNrU/T_nkKpvyMWI/AAAAAAAACdY/im6TOw_FvKE/s1600/Glagolitic_alphabet.png

[Linet]

We actually studied the Glagolitic alphabeth at school (at 9th grade), it was very hard to learn and it was very different from Cyrillic alphabeth. Take a look:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PE_Nv2-vNrU/T_nkKpvyMWI/AAAAAAAACdY/im6TOw_FvKE/s1600/Glagolitic_alphabet.png

I dont disagree....but the spark of a Slavic alphabet was born with it...the idea...thats why its important... :)

[morski]

The First Bulgarian Empire is to Slavdom what ancient Greece is to Europe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duQU1O-GKOs

[Onur]

The First Bulgarian Empire is to Slavdom what ancient Greece is to Europe.
That includes the pre-christianity period when they were still professing tengrism and speak Turkic? OR this is valid only after their assimilation by the eastern Roman missioners?

[morski]

That includes the pre-christianity period when they were still professing tengrism and speak Turkic? OR this is valid only after their assimilation by the eastern Roman missioners?

You seem to pick your wording rather freely.