Debate on Hungarian origins

[Proto-Shaman]

Ancient roots still survived in Cuman traditions in HUNgary as well!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY95ChJSLs8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q022yLLK1U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRmjOFRiQHk

watch in full lenght... just amazing... :icon_yell:

[Twistedmind]

Magyars have nothing to do with Slavs, Troll. Genetic evidence has linked early Magyars eastward to the Bashkirs as well to the Ujghurs, living in East-Eurasia around the town of Ürümqi

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/wp-content/blogs.dir/474/files/2012/04/i-bb3ac5b801b60400bded2397116d34e7-Europegenetics.jpg
Who is arround Hungarians?
Czechs, Slovenians, Croats, Bosnaiks, Serbs. (Austrians and Romanians being pretty close as well)
What is common for that 5 people?
Ah wait they are all Slavs. :rotfl2

[Proto-Shaman]

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/wp-content/blogs.dir/474/files/2012/04/i-bb3ac5b801b60400bded2397116d34e7-Europegenetics.jpg
Who is arround Hungarians?
Czechs, Slovenians, Croats, Bosnaiks, Serbs. (Austrians and Romanians being pretty close as well)
What is common for that 5 people?
Ah wait they are all Slavs. :rotfl2
Y-Chromosome Analysis of Ancient Hungarian and Two Modern Hungarian-Speaking Populations from the Carpathian Basin." Annals of Human Genetics 72:4 (July 2008): pages 519-534: (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/full)
"The R1a1-M17 frequency in Hungarians (30%) and Szeklers (18.6%) is comparable to that in their neighbours (e.g. Czechs and Slovaks, mainland Croatians, Bosnians, Romanians, Serbians) and some other Uralic-speaking populations (e.g. Estonian, Komis, Mordvin)... Similar frequencies of R1b as in the Hungarian speakers are found in some Slavic populations (mainland Croatians, Slovenians, Poles, Bulgarians); and in some Uralic-speakers (Komis, Khanties, Mordvin) as well as in Romanian and Turkish populations... The presence of central-Asian haplogroup P*(xM173) in Szeklers is unusual for a European population, since it is almost absent in continental Europe... and presumably reflects some Asian contribution, before or after reaching Transylvania. Hg I-M170 is the only Y-chromosome haplogroup that is confined almost exclusively to the European continent... Haplogroup I was detected with almost equal frequency in the two modern populations: 24% in Hungarians and 21.7% in Szeklers. However, two of its major subclades- I1a-M253 and I1b*(xM26) - show an opposite occurrence in the two ethnic groups, 8% and 13%, respectively, in Hungarians, and 16.5% and 5.2% in Szeklers. These are within the range of normal central and eastern European values... The elevated frequency of Hg I1a together with higher frequency of R1b-M269 in Szekler population might be the consequence, at least in part, of the genetic impact of people of German origin, who settled in Transylvania from the 12th century onwards (Transylvanian Saxons)... In the present study haplogroup J was unexpectedly common in the Hungarian-speaking populations (Hungarians: 16%, Szeklers: 21.6%). Haplogroup J... is considered to have originated in the Middle East... The J1-M267 Y-chromosomal lineage is notably frequent in Szeklers (10.3%; a value far above the range for other central and eastern European populations..., while its frequency in Hungarians (3.0%) is unremarkable. ... Among these J2-M172 subclades, J2e1-M102 is more frequent in Szeklers (7.2%) than in Hungarians (4.0%), while the undifferentiated J2-M172* Y chromosomes are slightly more common in Hungarian population (8% vs. 3.1%). Both J2f*-M67 and J2f1-M92 lineages were detected in our study in one single individual, in each population. ... Haplogroup E3b-M35 occurs at 10% frequency in Hungarians and 9.2% in Szeklers with E3b1-M78 chromosomes accounting for almost all representatives (∼90%). Hg E is mainly African, but its clade E3b-M35 has also been observed in Europe... Both E3b-M35 and its derivative (E3b1-M78) probably originated in eastern Africa..."

What exactly you wanted to state? :rotfl2 Then state it NOW please... I am tired... Odin would turn in his grave... :coffee:

http://www.michelangelo.cn/download/08_Genetics/hungarian_genetics_migrations_magyar_genetika_suic ide_ongyilkossag_eng_web.jpg

So stop with your Slavic NONSENSE fringe theory.

[Twistedmind]

Y-Chromosome Analysis of Ancient Hungarian and Two Modern Hungarian-Speaking Populations from the Carpathian Basin." Annals of Human Genetics 72:4 (July 2008): pages 519-534: (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/full)
"The R1a1-M17 frequency in Hungarians (30%) and Szeklers (18.6%) is comparable to that in their neighbours (e.g. Czechs and Slovaks, mainland Croatians, Bosnians, Romanians, Serbians) and some other Uralic-speaking populations (e.g. Estonian, Komis, Mordvin)... Similar frequencies of R1b as in the Hungarian speakers are found in some Slavic populations (mainland Croatians, Slovenians, Poles, Bulgarians); and in some Uralic-speakers (Komis, Khanties, Mordvin) as well as in Romanian and Turkish populations... The presence of central-Asian haplogroup P*(xM173) in Szeklers is unusual for a European population, since it is almost absent in continental Europe... and presumably reflects some Asian contribution, before or after reaching Transylvania. Hg I-M170 is the only Y-chromosome haplogroup that is confined almost exclusively to the European continent... Haplogroup I was detected with almost equal frequency in the two modern populations: 24% in Hungarians and 21.7% in Szeklers. However, two of its major subclades- I1a-M253 and I1b*(xM26) - show an opposite occurrence in the two ethnic groups, 8% and 13%, respectively, in Hungarians, and 16.5% and 5.2% in Szeklers. These are within the range of normal central and eastern European values... The elevated frequency of Hg I1a together with higher frequency of R1b-M269 in Szekler population might be the consequence, at least in part, of the genetic impact of people of German origin, who settled in Transylvania from the 12th century onwards (Transylvanian Saxons)... In the present study haplogroup J was unexpectedly common in the Hungarian-speaking populations (Hungarians: 16%, Szeklers: 21.6%). Haplogroup J... is considered to have originated in the Middle East... The J1-M267 Y-chromosomal lineage is notably frequent in Szeklers (10.3%; a value far above the range for other central and eastern European populations..., while its frequency in Hungarians (3.0%) is unremarkable. ... Among these J2-M172 subclades, J2e1-M102 is more frequent in Szeklers (7.2%) than in Hungarians (4.0%), while the undifferentiated J2-M172* Y chromosomes are slightly more common in Hungarian population (8% vs. 3.1%). Both J2f*-M67 and J2f1-M92 lineages were detected in our study in one single individual, in each population. ... Haplogroup E3b-M35 occurs at 10% frequency in Hungarians and 9.2% in Szeklers with E3b1-M78 chromosomes accounting for almost all representatives (∼90%). Hg E is mainly African, but its clade E3b-M35 has also been observed in Europe... Both E3b-M35 and its derivative (E3b1-M78) probably originated in eastern Africa..."

What exactly you wanted to state?
That you dont know to read.. ;)

[Proto-Shaman]

That you dont know to read.. ;)
:lol00002:
Sounds like a kind of historical revisionism of epic proportions.

Not to forget this map inhabited only by "Slavs":
http://www.michelangelo.cn/download/08_Genetics/hungarian_genetics_migrations_magyar_genetika_suic ide_ongyilkossag_eng_web.jpg

[Midori]

Magyars have nothing to do with Slavs, Troll.

Why do they look like Slavs then? :)))))

[Proto-Shaman]

Why do they look like Slavs then? :)))))
Beecaauuse...


“The three main components of the Central-Asian populations, which seem to be anthropologically the closest to the Hungarian people, are the Turanid, the Pamirian and the East-Mediterranean (Ginzburg 1966). [...]. Equestrian, stock-breeding populations of Central-Asian origin, people of the Avar Empire had a great role in the formation of the Slav population of the the Carpathian/Pannonian Basin.”
Source: Endre Czeizel, Heide-G. Benkmann, H. Werner Goedde, Genetics of the Hungarian population: ethnic aspects, genetic markers, ecogenetics and disease spectrum, Springer Verlag, 1991, p.96 (http://books.google.de/books?id=L09qAAAAMAAJ)

Seems that Slavs have Central Asian ties, too? :tongue
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/East_Roman.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Europe_around_800.gif
Wikipedia - Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary):

"Additionally, the Avars formed a significant part of the population of the Carpathian Basin at the end of the 9th century; both contemporary sources[17][18] and a growing number of archaeological evidence suggest that groups of the Avars survived the disintegration of their empire."
Wiki-Sub-Sources:
17 (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary#cite_note-17) • ^ For example, the Abbot Regino of Prüm mentions the plains of the Pannons and the Avars; Kristó, Gyula op. cit. (1993) pp. 96.
18 (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary#cite_note-18) • ^ a b A Country Study: Hungary. (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field%28DOCID+hu0013%29) Federal Research Division, Library of Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Congress). Retrieved 6 March 2009.


"Hungary = 35% Neo-Danubian (most common in the northeast), 25% Turanid (of Magyar derivation), 20% Dinaric (most common in the southwest), 15% Alpine (most common in the south), 2% Nordic, 2% Noric, 1% East Mediterranean = 39% Nordish (2% central and 37% periphery types)"
Source: Richard McCulloch - The Nordish Race (http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html)

[Proto-Shaman]

You started this bullcrap. Anyway, you did not notice this thread is not serious :picard1:
The bullcrap started with your following statement:

Hungarians call themselves Mogyers.

which was immediately followed by your next agressive nonsense statement without any background:

Hungarians are not Turks. They do not speak Turkic language, they do not look like Turks, they gennetically cluster with Slavs (acctually right in middle of us :P)...
And they have nothing to do with Odin
I always tried to remain on the basis of facts, but you consequently poured fire in this thread, whereas I did not.

[Onur]

Why do they look like Slavs then? :)))))
Because slavs are their neighbors and like all the other people on earth, Hungarians looks similar with their neighbors too. They are not unique on this issue.

Also Slovenians, Austrians, Slovaks, Romanians, some Serbians looks like Hungarians, as much as Hungarians looks like them.

This is not an argument but it`s an ordinary phenomenon which can be seen anywhere on earth. If you think this is a valid argument, then you better explain to me why you look similar with Serbians, Albanians, Bulgarians and Greeks.

[746384374837483]

gone

[Twistedmind]

Slovakia's place in that coordinate system seems like a mistake or at least an interesting case to me...

Nonetheless if that coordinate system is good it seems to me that distances between:
HU and Germanic countries(NL,SE,DE,...)
HU and Slavic countries(PL,RU,UA,...)
HU and FI
are the same.

Biggest distances:
HU-CY
HU-PT+ES
HU-TR

Btw is this data depends on ethnicity or nationality?
(There are Hungarians in the neighbouring countries)
I think, they have one sample when doing that map, and it was obviously mixed. Considering Slavs, you are relatively close to all Slavic peoples (genneticaly speaking, neigbiurghing being closeset) :)

Data are on basis of place of origin. But, altough there is no siezable population of Hungarians in Czech Republic which is closest, nor in Bosnia which is pretty close as well.

[Midori]

Because slavs are their neighbors and like all the other people on earth, Hungarians looks similar with their neighbors too. They are not unique on this issue.

Also Slovenians, Austrians, Slovaks, Romanians, some Serbians looks like Hungarians, as much as Hungarians looks like them.

This is not an argument but it`s an ordinary phenomenon which can be seen anywhere on earth. If you think this is a valid argument, then you better explain to me why you look similar with Serbians, Albanians, Bulgarians and Greeks.

Well that's the point people.. it shows that their genes are not Turanic but Slavic, Germanic etc. like the other nations around them. You have to be really blind to not see this.

[Géza]

Hungarians call themselves Mogyers.

Yes, but it is rather Magyar (pl. Magyarok) with "a".


Nothing new for me my friend ;) But relevance here? Don't forget "Hun" is a multiethnic term.

We never call ownselvez as "Hun" or "Hungarians". This word came from the Bulgar-Turkish On Ogur (Ten Arrow, Ten Tribes). It has been started to use by the western authors.


Hungarians are not Turks. They do not speak Turkic language, they do not look like Turks, they gennetically cluster with Slavs (acctually right in middle of us :P)...
And they have nothing to do with Odin

Some often used word of our language came from the Bulgar-Turkish dialects. F.e. Gyűrű (Ring), Tenger (Sea), Sárga (Yellow). Physically we may look like as the Slavs and we have more Slavic word than Turkish. One part of scientist of us forced the Turkish root, one part of them forced the Finno-Ugric root, one part of them forced the relationship of our neighbours. Books and articles of this topic can load whole libraries. It is possible to link source about every trend ad infinitum.

Our traditional clothes and folks culture seem similar to the Slavs and the Balkanics. Balkanic music and costums look more Asiatic and Eastern for me.

F.e. a very common Hungarian folk song. I use to croon this. :)

YsNY8eQ5-iY

Typical traditional folk costum of us.

http://www.sff.hu/files/images/szekely-nepviselet.jpg

[Twistedmind]

Yes, but it is rather Magyar (pl. Magyarok) with "a".



We never call ownselvez as "Hun" or "Hungarians". This word came from the Bulgar-Turkish On Ogur (Ten Arrow, Ten Tribes). It has been started to use by the western authors.



Some often used word of our language came from the Bulgar-Turkish dialects. F.e. Gyűrű (Ring), Tenger (Sea), Sárga (Yellow). Physically we may look like as the Slavs and we have more Slavic word than Turkish. One part of scientist of us forced the Turkish root, one part of them forced the Finno-Ugric root, one part of them forced the relationship of our neighbours. Books and articles of this topic can load whole libraries. It is possible to link source about every trend ad infinitum.

Closest languages to yours are Finnish and Estonian.



Our traditional clothes and folks culture seem similar to the Slavs and the Balkanics. Balkanic music and costums look more Asiatic and Eastern for me.


http://www.sff.hu/files/images/szekely-nepviselet.jpg

Verry asiatic. Common man. It does not look Asiatic nor Turkic. Balkans Oriental influences are in mentality, loanwords, partialy in music and cusine. Not in folk culture.

[Midori]

Verry asiatic.

Indeed :laugh:

[Žołnir]

There is some Hungar theory about alien origins. I am not joking! :)

[Arrow Cross]

There is some Hungar theory about alien origins. I am not joking! :)

But they are. Thankfully.

[Insuperable]

No wonder why Turkics try to link Hungaryans with themselves. Inferior people trying to link themselves with the superior, nothing new.
I just do not understand why some Hungarians degrade themselves with pan Turanian shit.

[Dengizik]

No wonder why Turkics try to link Hungaryans with themselves. Inferior people trying to link themselves with the superior, nothing new.
I just do not understand why some Hungarians degrade themselves with pan Turanian shit.

What makes you think we have inferiority? While we have such a great history.

[Insuperable]

What makes you think we have inferiority? While we have such a great history.

Hungarians are superior to all Turkics combined.

[Géza]

Closest languages to yours are Finnish and Estonian.

We have similar words, the very deep roots may be common. The problem is that the absolutely basic words are Finno-Ugric, Turkish and Slavic too. Our language is more mixed than the Germano-Romance English. F.e. some basic words:

the Szem (Eye) is relative with the Finnic "Silmä" (Szem).
The Éj (Night) connect with the Turkish "Ay" (Moon).
The Víz (Water) may connect with Slavic "Voda" (Water).
The Nyak (Neck) is very similar to the English "Neck", German "Nacken" (back of the neck, Hungarian "Nyak" means both neck and throat).

Grammatically the closest languages the Ugoric Vogul and Ostyak languages, but they are far as New Persian as English.

F.e. our linguists could make only few sample sentence in Ugoric:

Pegte lau lassinen menl tou szilna.

(A) fekete ló lassan megy (a) tó(nak a) szélén — would sound in my language.

This Ugoric sample sounds very stranger for me. Personally I think the main "problem" is the Russians have assimilated the closest relatives of our ancient ancestors in the upper Volga region. Hence we have not closer relatives like as the Slovaks for the Polish or the English for the Germans.

[Géza]

No wonder why Turkics try to link Hungaryans with themselves. Inferior people trying to link themselves with the superior, nothing new.
I just do not understand why some Hungarians degrade themselves with pan Turanian shit.

I don't think the Turks would be inferior people. Our nationalist in the 19th want the Turkish ancestry, because this was superior in their eyes like as the Finno-Ugric or the Slavic root. All the things bases on the aspects of view.

[Dengizik]

We have similar words, the very deep roots may be common. The problem is that the absolutely basic words are Finno-Ugric, Turkish and Slavic too. Our language is more mixed than the Germano-Romance English. F.e. some basic words:

the Szem (Eye) is relative with the Finnic "Silmä" (Szem).
The Éj (Night) connect with the Turkish "Ay" (Moon).
The Víz (Water) may connect with Slavic "Voda" (Water).
The Nyak (Neck) is very similar to the English "Neck", German "Nacken" (back of the neck, Hungarian "Nyak" means both neck and throat).

Grammatically the closest languages the Ugoric Vogul and Ostyak languages, but they are far as New Persian as English.

F.e. our linguists could make only few sample sentence in Ugoric:

Pegte lau lassinen menl tou szilna.

(A) fekete ló lassan megy (a) tó(nak a) szélén — would sound in my language.

This Ugoric sample sounds very stranger for me. Personally I think the main "problem" is the Russians have assimilated the closest relatives of our ancient ancestors in the upper Volga region. Hence we have not closer relatives like as the Slovaks for the Polish or the English for the Germans.
I dont know if this true;

Magyar:
Zsebemben sok kicsi alma van

Turkish:
Cebimde çok küçük elma var

:D

[Twistedmind]

Number of foreign words means nothing. Farsi have large share of of Semitic words (accoridng to some 50%). But its grammar is Indo-European.
Share of Finnic and Uralic people's ancestry among Russians is bit overplayed, and absolutley irrelevant. Russian language is verry Slavic, and verry close, in any way, with rest Slavic languages. Also other Slavs do not have any Finnic or Uralic ancestry, and our languages are those who are acctually closer (Serbian, Czech, Slovak, Slovene)

[Arrow Cross]

I dont know if this true;

Magyar:
Zsebemben sok kicsi alma van

Turkish:
Cebimde çok küçük elma var

:D

Yah, that's much more similar than the Finnish sentences flailed about, although to be sure, Turkish linguistic influence came in two waves. First, on our way west (whatever our roots, we definitely had cultural exchange with both Turkics and Finno-Ugrians) and then, under the Ottoman Wars. The latter is quite well documented and very much visible to this day.

[Szegedist]

Hungarians call themselves Mogyers.

It's MAGYAR.


You never saw Hungarian, the overlap with people arround them



Yobik is not only party in Hungary.



http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/wp-content/blogs.dir/474/files/2012/04/i-bb3ac5b801b60400bded2397116d34e7-Europegenetics.jpg
Who is arround Hungarians?
Czechs, Slovenians, Croats, Bosnaiks, Serbs. (Austrians and Romanians being pretty close as well)
What is common for that 5 people?
Ah wait they are all Slavs. :rotfl2

Hey Serb, you want to talk genetics? Then why don't you tell us how Slavic Serbs are, with their I2b and E1b1b. Very Slavic right? Dinarid slavs :picard1:
You are simply a mixture of Slavs, gypsies, pre Balkan people (like the Ilyrians) who speak a Serb langauge.

But how often do I see Hungarians troll Serb forums, and tell you that you are not true Slavs, (which by genetics you are not!)? Never.
Do you have an inferiority complex or something? Probably, that is why you want to make other nations seem Slavic, so you can claim our achievements as your own.




Well that's the point people.. it shows that their genes are not Turanic but Slavic, Germanic etc. like the other nations around them. You have to be really blind to not see this.
Maybe for the same reason your FYROMian mother looks like a Gypsy?




Our traditional clothes and folks culture seem similar to the Slavs and the Balkanics. Balkanic music and costums look more Asiatic and Eastern for me.

F.e. a very common Hungarian folk song. I use to croon this. :)

YsNY8eQ5-iY

Typical traditional folk costum of us.

http://www.sff.hu/files/images/szekely-nepviselet.jpg

No they don't, and that picture is not a good representative of the diversity of Hungarian folk costumes.SDIznMOoems


Also, people are forgetting one thing, that for a long time we were the rurlers of Central Europe, our surrounding states were either our vassals our part of us at one point in time. So no sh*t that WE influenced THEM.


I laugh when people say,"Hungarians seem similar to Slovaks, therefore Hungarians are Slavs", when in fact it would be more correct to say it the other way round.


Closest languages to yours are Finnish and Estonian.
And this point is obvious that you do not know what you are talking about. If we go by the so called "Finno-Ugric" theory, our closest languages are Khanty and Mansi.



No wonder why Turkics try to link Hungaryans with themselves. Inferior people trying to link themselves with the superior, nothing new.
What is really degrading are Slavs trying to portray us as their Slavic brethren. That is how insulting it gets.



Our nationalist in the 19th want the Turkish ancestry, because this was superior in their eyes like as the Finno-Ugric or the Slavic root. All the things bases on the aspects of view.
Actually, the Hun-Turan-Scythian has been part of the Hungarian national conciousness far longer than the so called Finno Ugric theory.

[Twistedmind]

It's MAGYAR.
Hey Serb, you want to talk genetics? Then why don't you tell us how Slavic Serbs are, with their I2b and E1b1b. Very Slavic right? Dinarid slavs :picard1:
You are simply a mixture of Slavs, gypsies, pre Balkan people (like the Ilyrians) who speak a Serb langauge.

Except trying to pas as retard what are you triying to say? What Y DNA have acctually with looks? Loki is EV-13 for example, and you want to say he is Berber or what. I2a2/I2b is not Slavic, but characteristic for Slavs, all of them. If you want to troll, better worry about Arabian J2 in Hungary. :picard1:



But how often do I see Hungarians troll Serb forums, and tell you that you are not true Slavs, (which by genetics you are not!)? Never
We are Slavs by 30%, not bad, compared with Russians 55%. (peak result). If you want to troll me, better learn how. :D

You look like Slavs arround you, just accep it.

PS
Hungary is country which made brand of its Gypsies, and you want to accuse Serbs as Gpyies. :rotfl2
PS there is 140,000 Gypsies in Serbia and 400,000 in Hungary. :p
How do you feel about it?

[Szegedist]

Serbs are only 15% R1a, while 20.5% E1b1b and 6.5% J2 (which is roughly equal with Hungary, so you should start worrying too). So Serbs are tr00 Slavs? :D

The only retard are you, genetically you have more in common with Albanians, Greeks, Romanians than you do with Poles or Russians.

You want to talk about Gypsies? The reason why Serbia has less is because you intermarried with them, which is why Serbs are much darker when compared to other Slavs.

[Onur]

I don't think the Turks would be inferior people. Our nationalist in the 19th want the Turkish ancestry, because this was superior in their eyes like as the Finno-Ugric or the Slavic root. All the things bases on the aspects of view.
just don't mind these butthurt Balkanites. They feel themselves superior as much as they curse to the Turks. This is their pathetic case around here.



Do you have an inferiority complex or something? Probably, that is why you want to make other nations seem Slavic, so you can claim our achievements as your own.

Also, people are forgetting one thing, that for a long time we were the rurlers of Eastern Europe, our surrounding states were either our vassals our part of us at one point in time. So no sh*t that WE influenced THEM.

I laugh when people say,"Hungarians seem similar to Slovaks, therefore Hungarians are Slavs", when in fact it would be more correct to say it the other way round.
Yes mate, you are so right. These so-called slavs in Balkans was our subjects for centuries, the southern ones was part of the Ottoman empire and the northernmost ones was with the Austro-Hungarian empire.

I also laugh myself when these Balkanite slavs claims the same for the Turks, that we are influenced by them. The fact is they eat Turkish food, wear Turkish folk costumes, play our musical instruments and their languages contains 1000s of Turkish words BUT yet, they claim that we are influenced by the slavs while ignoring Turkish influence in their culture.

Same thing is valid for the Hungarians. No offense to the Slovaks but really wtf is Slovakia comparing with the 1000 year old recorded and attested Hungarian culture and history in this place? The Hungarian empire ruled in these places for centuries, not Slovaks nor any other slavs. It`s so absurd to claim that tiny and young nation of Slovaks with no proper history having major effect to the great nation of Hungary. The logic dictates that it should be exact opposite. Hungarians influenced these people just as the Turkish influence in Balkans.

[Twistedmind]

Serbs are only 15% R1a, while 20.5% E1b1b and 6.5% J2 (which is roughly equal with Hungary, so you should start worrying too). So Serbs are tr00 Slavs? :D

:picard1:
Y_DNA groups means nothing. Ask any molecular biologist. :bored:



The only retard are you, genetically you have more in common with Albanians, Greeks, Romanians than you do with Poles or Russians.

:picard1:
Acctually, like you could se we have lot more with you than any of mentioned except Romanians.
Why I think your comments are stupid :D



You want to talk about Gypsies? The reason why Serbia has less is because you intermarried with them, which is why Serbs are much darker when compared to other Slavs.

:picard1:
Another one. Well think whatever you want. I really dont care for your opinion.

Anyway, according some estimates there is million of Gypsies in Hungary. :D It gave us 550,000 quasi-Hungarians :D
You are last nation in Earth which could accuse anyone for Gypsy influence.

[Lena]

You are simply a mixture of Slavs, gypsies, pre Balkan people (like the Ilyrians) who speak a Serb langauge.
...
Do you have an inferiority complex or something? Probably, that is why you want to make other nations seem Slavic, so you can claim our achievements as your own.

Hmmmm ... Sándor Petőfi, Ilona Királyné (hehehe! :eyes ), Döme Sztójay etc.

Should we go by family names in Hungary? Just say...



Maybe for the same reason your FYROMian mother looks like a Gypsy?
Now, that's not a nice way to address one lady under no circumstances, especially when she's partially Hungarian herself!



What is really degrading are Slavs trying to portray us as their Slavic brethren. That is how insulting it gets.
You're on purpose (or not) giving yourself too much credits :)


Now, pls be kind and lay off the 'Serb/Slavic thing'. Thanks!

[Szegedist]

Now, that's not a nice way to address one lady under no circumstances, especially when she's partially Hungarian herself!
She has the male symbol in her profile. Am I supposed to read minds or?



You're on purpose (or not) giving yourself too much credits :)

Maybe you want to tell us about the Serbian empire (many of you say its the greatest in Europe), and how Serbs on their own fought and defeated the Ottomans?



Now, pls be kind and lay off the 'Serb/Slavic thing'. Thanks!
I did not start this, it was your friends that came here to troll and provoke us, I am simply responding to them, my Serbified Ilyrian friend ;)

[Twistedmind]

I did not start this, it was your friends that came here to troll and provoke us, I am simply responding to them, my Serbified Ilyrian friend ;)

You are troll, I acctually claimed you to be fully European. :picard1: Go and reread all of it. You started this nonsense about Y_DNA Haplogroups and Gypsies.

[Corvus]

Intresting discussion. I think it is best the Hungarians should decide themselves where they belong to.
From my own observation and I have met many Hungarians they are physically very diverse like most Central Europeans
Some look Slavic, some Turanic and some East Med or Germanic.
Names also reflect that: Traditional Hungarian names exist side to side with
Magyariszed Slavic names with the peculiar ending -ics and German ones

But what counts most is the fact that the vast majority of Hungarians feel themselves much closer to Turkey than to Slavic neighbour countries and embrace their allegedly Asian roots with pride.

[Twistedmind]

Intresting discussion. I think it is best the Hungarians should decide themselves where they belong to.
From my own observation and I have met many Hungarians they are physically very diverse like most Central Europeans
Some look Slavic, some Turanic and some East Med or Germanic.
Names also reflect that: Traditional Hungarian names exist side to side with
Magyariszed Slavic names with the peculiar ending -ics

But what counts most is the fact that the vast majority of Hungarians feel themselves much closer to Turkey than to Slavic neighbour countries and embrace their allegedly Asian roots with pride.

Yes. If they want to be Asians, let them be it.

[Szegedist]

You are troll, I acctually claimed you to be fully European. :picard1: Go and reread all of it. You started this nonsense about Y_DNA Haplogroups and Gypsies.


We don't need a so called "Serb" to give us their approval whether we are European or not.

You talk about our genetics, while your genetics are far cry from being Slavic, even a Serb must realize this. :confused:

We are not Slavs, and that is the end of it.

Genetically, Serbs and Hungarians are quite different, except Serbs from so called "Vojvodina" (apart from the recent colonizers)

[Lena]

...
my Serbified Ilyrian friend ;)
I'm actually partially Hungarian myself... everything else is your try to justify all this mambo-jumbo which is ongoing on this thread.

Szia!

[Szegedist]

The Finno-Ugrian Theory:

The best known theory of the Magyars' origin is the Finno-Ugrian(-Turkic) concept. The advocates of this theory believe in the linguistic and ethnic kinship of the Hungarians with the Finns, Esthonians, Ostyaks and Voguls. This concept places the ancient homeland of the Finno-Ugrians on both sides of the southern Urals, a relatively low mountain range (average altitude 3000 feet) which separates Europe from Asia.

Since the linguistic likeness of the Magyar language to the Finno-Ugrian family of languages has been firmly established, the advocates of this theory insist that the cradle of the Magyars could only have been situated in the Ural region. It was from there - so the theory goes - that around 2000 B.C. the Finnish branch broke away to finally settle in the Baltic area.

Meanwhile, the proto-Magyars remained on the vast West Siberian steppes with other Ugrian peoples until around 500 B.C. (There is no satisfactory explanation, however, for how the Proto-Magyars, who had been forest dwelling hunters and gatherers along with the other Finno-Ugrians, became horse-breeders, livestock herding horsemen and warriors).

Then the Magyars, now alone, crossed the Urals westward to settle in the area of present-day Soviet Bashkiria, situated north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus. Remaining there for centuries, they became neighbors of various Ural-Altaic peoples such as the Huns, Turkic-Bulgars, Alans and Onogurs. Inevitably, these proto-Magyars adopted many of their neighbors' cultural traits and customs. Some ethnic mingling also occurred before the various Hungarian tribes, pressured by waves of migrating nomads, started their own migration westward toward the Carpathians.

This Finno-Ugrian(-Turkic) theory was quasi sanctioned by the state from the middle of the 19th century to recent times. After World War II, however, this concept was challenged by a new coalition of scholars and orientalists. The Finno-Ugrian theory, they argue, is based on linguistics alone, without support in anthropology, archeology or written records.


Sumerian connection:

The orientalists point, instead, to apparent evidence that the cradle of the Magyars and their language lay not in the Ural region, but in an area of Central-Asia, earlier known as the Turanian Plain.

Now known as Soviet Turkestan, this area stretches from the Caspian Sea eastward to Lake Balchas. Ancient chronicles called this huge area Scythia. A living tradition fed by centuries of folklore holds that the proto-Magyars were related to the Scythians, builders of a great empire in the fifth century B.C. Greek and Latin authors freely referred to a great variety of peoples living within this empire as "Scythians," just as the varieties of peoples encompassed by the Soviet Union today are often called "Soviets."

After the Scythian Empire disintegrated, the Turanian Plain witnessed the rise and fall of empires built between the first and ninth centuries A.D. by the Huns, Avars, Khazars and various Turkic peoples, including the Uygurs. The proto-Magyars absorbed new strains from these peoples, and formed tribal alliances from which later the Hungarian nation - an amalgam of Onogur, Sabir, Turkic and Ugrian peoples - was to be born.

Today, students of Far-Eastern history believe that the Magyars were strongly exposed to Sumerian culture as well since proto-Sumerians too, had inhabited the Turanian Plain until about 3000 B.C. This people then migrated to Mesopotamia, where they built a brilliant civilization, whose most important achievement was the invention of writing.

By 1950 B.C. the Sumerian empire was gone, but their cunei form writings endured on the tablets they had used. Famous linguists of the 19th century, including Henry C. Rawlinson, Jules Oppert, Eduard Sayous and François Lenormant soon found that knowledge of the Ural-Altaic languages - particularly Magyar - can greatly facilitate the deciphering of Sumerian writings. Cunei form writing was used by the Hungarians long before their arrival in the Carpathian Basin, and afterwards as well.

The similarity of the two languages strongly inspired Hungarian orientalists to seek a deeper Sumerian-Hungarian connection. To the present day, however, no indisputable and decisive proof has yet emerged.

However; a by-product of orientalist speculations - a "Finno-Ugrian concept in reverse. " - is worthy of note. This concept holds that, if the proto-Magyars were neighbors of proto-Sumerians in the Turanian Plain, then the development of the Hungarian language must have been the result of Sumerian rather than Finno-Ugrian(-Turkic) influences. In turn, this would mean that, rather than being the recipients of a Finno-Ugrian linguistic heritage, it was the Magyars themselves who must have conveyed their own proto-language, enriched by Sumerian, to the Finns and Estonians, without being ethnically related to them!

Adding strength to this theory is the fact that the Magyars have always been numerically stronger than all their distant Finno-Ugrian neighbors combined. It is possible that Finns and Ugors received strong linguistic strains from a Magyar branch which had broken away from the main body on the Turanian Plain, and migrated to West Siberia.

The origin of the Magyars is a question which has puzzled scholars for many years. It is commonly held that the Magyars were a nomadic people of the north, descended from the Voguls, and their language of Finno-Ugrian origin. They migrated southwards and mixed with Bulgar-Turkic and Alanic peoples. Later they raided west under Arpad, until they came to settle in the sparsely populated Carpathian Basin, bringing with them their language and traditions. (Bartha, 7)

But there is a different and more controversial explanation for the origins of the Magyars. Dr. Nagy believes that the people who later became known as Magyars had settled and lived in the Carpathian Basin for many years before Arpad's conquest, and that these people were the Sumerains that were pushed out of the Fertile Crescent.

Dr. Nagy attempts to prove his theory by using extensive examples to show the linguistic similarities between the Sumerian, Old Magyar, and the current Magyar language. He also refers to several works written during the first millennium, including the Arpad codices and the De Administrando Imperio, and also relies on his own research of over fifty years.

One point he makes is that while there are only two hundred Magyar words related to the Finno-Ugric language, there are over two thousand words related to the Sumerian language. (Nagy, 10)

The Sumerians were a highly advanced non-Semitic people who appeared in lower Mesopotamia around the fifth or sixth millennia BC and settled between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.
(Nagy, p. 27) City states supported by irrigation and a form of writing called cuneifrom had appeared by around 3,000 BC.
They flourished until being pushed out by the Akkadians and Elamites. (Encyclopedia) But did these people simply die out or blend in with their conquerors? Dr. Nagy believes that they did not cease to exist, but that there were two separate migrations of the Sumerian people out of their homeland.

One group traveled northwest through Turkey, across the Bosporus and up into the Carpathian Basin.
The other group migrated east then north across the Caucuses Mountains, into the area between the Caspian and Black Seas. (Nagy, map2) Facts show that the early settlers in the Carpathian Basin became known as the

Turanians, and were working the land long before the conquest of Arpad. But who were these Turanians? They were a non-Aryan people who preceded the Indo-European migration through Europe, and Nagy believes that they are the migrated Sumerians. (Nagy, 17)

Part of Nagy's proof that the Sumerian were the people that became known as the Turanians is a word study of the current names of the rivers to the north and west which flow in to the Black Sea. These rivers lie in the direct path the Sumerians supposedly took out of the Fertile Crescent, and the area from which the conquering Magyars came. In Sumerian, the first river, the Don, means 'loud, rumbling sound'. The Donec or Donetz flows into the Don and it means to 'give or make sound'.

The Dnieper comes from the Sumerian Don-aper - 'the father of the Don', and the river Dniester or Don-Ister meaning the 'divine Don'. And the Danube, from Don-aba which means 'the great Don'. Ister is also the name of one of the Sumerians' favorite deities, the goddess of Nature. (Nagy, 26)


Nagy also goes into particular detail of the names of cities, towns and counties in modern Hungary and show that many of the names mean something in Sumerian, with minor variations. e.g. The city Esztergom, whose name was changed in Roman times - thus it precedes Arpad's conquest - from the Sumerian language it is Istergam, from Ister the Sumerian deity and 'gom' or 'gam' meaning bend in the river in both Magyar and Sumerian. (Nagy, 51)


Nagy also speaks of an ancient runic writing system that has been found in the region. A writing system which preceded the Greek form of writing, and is unrelated to the Phoenician form of writing. It is based on 34 letters. (Nagy, 71) He quotes the work of Adorjan Magyar, an ethnologist, "'In Europe, Magyarorszag was the only nation which had its own alphabet before Christianity.'" (Nagy, 72)

Nagy believes that the Sumerian cuneiform evolved into the runic system which appeared in the Carpathian basin, and that this writing system is related to the Etruscan writing system. Magyar states, "'How is it possible that the ancient Magyar runic numerical system resembles the Etruscan, ...while the Etruscan runic numerical system disappeared centuries ago, before the Magyar nomad people...conquered the Carpathian Basin in the tenth century?'" (Nagy, 73) So, they conclude that an advanced people lived in the Carpathian basin, that they were related to the Etruscans, and that the languages have many similarities to modern Magyar.

What follows is a brief history of what happened from Roman times until the conquering by Arpad. From 35 BC to 9 AD the Romans fought with the inhabitants of the Carpathian basin, whom they called the Pannonians. The Pannonians were finally conquered and added to the empire. Nagy believes that the name Pannonians does not derive from the Roman god Pan, but rather from Pannon which means 'belonging to Panna" a nickname for the Sumerian goddess of creation, Anu.
(Nagy 83,84) In 359 AD, the people revolted against the heavy burden of taxes. Around 400 BC the Huns arrived in the region and pushed out the Romans, and established themselves on the Magyar plain. (Nagy, 103) By 469, the Huns had fallen apart, and settled and mixed with the population, in the well defended Carpathians. (Nagy, 108) In 557, the Avar-Huns moved into Eastern Europe, and dominated the region until Charlemagne and the Franks fought a bloody eight year war of conquest and defeated the Avars to close out the eighth century. (Nagy, 108,111)

The conquering Magyars invaded the Carpathian basin in 896 AD from the Etelkoz region. Everything that has been said so far leads to one question, and Nagy answers that by saying that there was a people in Hungary before the conquering Magyars arrived. Nagy attempts to show that through history, the conquering people usually adapts the language of their minions. Nagy believes that when the Magyars came in, they did just that and adopted the language that was already being spoken in the conquered lands, adding their own contributions to the language, but because they were in power, the language became known as Magyar. e.g. Modern France is actually named after the Franks, a Germanic people that conquered Gaul.

Over time the Franks adopted the language of the people - which was a Romance language, not Germanic - but the name of the country and the language became known as France and French, respectively, due to the conquerors influence. (Nagy, 23-24, 99-100) But who where these conquering Magyars and where were they from? Nagy believes that they were the Medes who lived east of the Caspian sea, out of which came the Megyeri or Magyari tribes. (Nagy, 133)

In De Administrando, Impereo, Constantine writes that the Pechengs attacked a 'Turkish' people and that it split them into two tribes, the one half going towards Etelkoz north of the Black Sea and the other down southeast towards Persia. (Note: Turkish was a name given to all peoples of this area - comparable to Slavic, many nations but with some similarities.) The name of that peoples know as "Szabartofaszfalo". (Nagy, 135-136) Nagy believes that the roots of this word mean the 'people of Subartu'. Subartu is a land just to the east of ancient Sumeria. (Nagy, 139-140) Thus, Nagy concludes the conquering Magyar were the same Sumerians who traveled north into the Caucuses and adapted to the life of the horse-riding Turkish peoples. And after more attacks moved westward into modern Hungary.


The Huns


The Huns appear officially in history only when their hordes coming from the east reach the Roman Empire and in a very short time they conquer most of Europe.
Before that time, they have been numbered among the nomadic tribes of the Asian steppes and their origin was almost unknown.

Now we have many research elements that have brought more light about this people, or complex of peoples, and have discovered that they were present in the most ancient times in Mesopotamia, and that have even been linked in some way, though not ethnically, with the Israelites in different times along history.

The Huns' origin is directly connected with two well-known peoples of ancient Middle East: the Sumerians and the Scythians, namely, in the kingdom founded by Nimrod.

Even though they belong to the Japhetic stock and their most creditable ancestor is Magog, the Sumerian heritage has been kept by them more than by any other people, which implies that they are in fact the result of a mixed background.
According to their own legendary accounts (legends that are anyway founded on true facts), it is very feasible that Magog's descent was under Nimrod's rule, and that they kept close ties with Sumerians even for a long time after the Sumerians disappeared from Mesopotamia as a national entity.
Their particular link with ancient Sumerians was found through the comparison of modern Hungarian (Magyar) and other related languages with documents of the ancient Middle East, that revealed a possible common origin. It is evident that the language element is absolutely not a sufficient basis to establish the origin of peoples, since language can be lost and adopted from other non-related cultures (for example, Yiddisch, a German-based tongue, became for centuries the language of European Jews, who are Semitic). Therefore, other more relevant elements like traditions, cultural heritage and, if existing, historic documents are needed.
Taking language as the starting point, we have to consider on one side the whole complex of peoples that may be regarded as Huns (Hunogurs, Bulgars, Magyars, Sabirs, etc) and on the other side, the relationship between Sumerians, Scythians, Hurrites and Elamites.

The ancient Sumerians, that in the dawn of history settled in Southern Mesopotamia, in the land commonly known as Shin'ar or Chaldea, arrived there from the north, precisely from the Ararat region, that they called "Subar-Ki" or "Subar-Tu". This area was also named after one of the peoples that inhabited there, the Hurri, whose language was agglutinative like Sumerian and had many words in common, even being a totally different tongue. Modern Hungarian shares many terms with both, Sumerian and Hurrian, as well as with Elamite. The peoples of that area, the Biblical Charan, were also called Subar, Supar, Sabir, etc. For example,

Assyrian documents refer to them as Sapar-da; Persian records mention that country as the land of the Sabarda (Sabir) and the Matiene (Mada), while the Greek historian Herodotus refers to them as Sapir or Sabir, Makr or Magar and Matiene. One of the Subar tribes were the Mitanni, that ruled over the Hurrites and founded an important kingdom in association with them.

Their land was then known also as Mada or Mata (not to be confused with Maday, the Medes, a different people).

The term that may be transliterated as "mat", "madh", "madj" means "country" or "district" in Sumerian, Subarian, Parthian, and other related languages, and it was also used by the Assyrians and Egyptians with the same meaning.

Notice that in those languages, the phoneme "dh" or "dj" is equal to the modern Hungarian "gy", and "megye" is still "district" or "province" in Hungarian.

Therefore, if the denomination has been transferred along the generations, the Magyars might be the ancient tribe of Mitanni. The territory of the Mada or Mitanni is referred by some Egyptian documents as Magor. Magor was also the name of one of the mythical ancestors of the Hungarian nation according to the Legend of the White Stag.


Descendants of the Hurrites are credited as the founders of the Central Asian kingdom of Khwarezm, which is considered by some scholars as the original land of the Finnic and Altaic peoples, and that is in some way related to the Székely, one of the Hungarian tribes that will be mentioned later in this chapter.

Among the many terms that link the Northern Mesopotamian peoples to modern Hungarians, it is interesting to notice the following: in Hurrian/Subar language, the word "tarshua" means "all the people", while in Sumerian "shag" conveyed the meaning of people as well as head or high.

In Hungarian "társaság" means "society", as "köztársaság" is "republic" (notice that "s" in Hungarian sounds like "sh").

Byzantine documents concerning the Hungarian prince Termatzu from Árpád's lineage assert that the oldest name of the Hungarians was Sabartoi Asphali, recalling their ancient Mesopotamian name Subar-tu and Sabir-ki, while

Asphali was the Arab name of the Lower Zab river. Arab and Persian records also mention the tribe of Mager in the area of Azerbaidzhan.

Until the 15th century c.e. there was a county in Armenia called Madzhar Agadzor, whose people believed that their origin was from one of Nimrod's sons, which coincides with the Hungarian legends. There are still geographic names in the Caucasus related to Magor and Nimrud.

The Magyar and Sabir peoples' names have been found in Northern Mesopotamia since the dawn of history, and then their traces lead eastwards to the Turkestan, where even today there are geographic names which attest their presence. Indeed, it is after the Sabirs that Siberia has been called like that.

Greek records mention two peoples called "Tibar and Moser" who were metal workers of the Caucasus; these names have an interesting though maybe only apparent resemblance with the Biblical Tuval and Meshek.

In the chapter "The Peoples of the North", we have seen that Tuval is identified with the Tybareni, and such is actually the very name given by the Greeks, Tibar.

These are believed by some historians to be the distorted names of Subar (Tibar) and Machar (Moser), which can also mean varieties of smiths in the Hungarian language: "mozser" meaning sword smith, "tibor" meaning smith in the past, but not in modern language. Similarly in Sumerian "tibir", smith, and

Turkic "timur", iron. It is an interesting fact that the Subarians of the Caucasus were skilful metal smiths, and some metals names come from their language: in Sumerian "subur", bronze is apparent in the Hungarian "szobor", bronze statue.

In the time of the Hungarian resettlement, the kind of steel used to make swords was called "sabura-kan". In the same way, the Subarian peoples were expert horsemen; and the Hungarian words for horse, warhorse and chariot are all from Northern Mesopotamia.

The Hungarian chronicles say very little about the early history of the Magyars. The main references to that period are found in two accounts, one of which is the Legend of the White Stag , that suggests the unification of three nations: Magyars, Huns and Alans. Of course, the integration of Alans with the Hun/Magyar tribes refers not to the whole people of the Alans, but only to some of their tribes.

A valuable document about the story of the magical hunt in early versions was taken from the Hungarian Royal Library captured by the Turks and re-published under the title " Tarihi Üngürüs" (History of the Hungarians), now in the Topkapi Museum of Istanbul.

The other reference to that period is very interesting since it mentions ancient rulers and Biblical patriarchs. That document starts with Tana, who is identified with Kush, the father of Nimrod - undoubtedly, the same as the Sumerian Etana of the city of Kish (Kush). The Kushan Scythians also had an ancestor called Kush-Tana. The Sumerian Etana was the first mighty one on earth who wanted to visit heaven, and did - this coincides with the Biblical account concerning Nimrod, and his role in the construction of the Tower of Bavel.

In the Hungarian account, his son is called Ménrót (Nimrud), whose sons were Magor, Hunor, and the ancestors of the Iranians. This resembles the myths recorded by Berosus, the outstanding historian of Babylon. Even the wife of Nimrud (Anuta/Bau) has similar names in the Hungarian version, Eneth/Boldog-asszony. Assyrian accounts refer that Nimrud had twin sons, one of whose names is Magor. Following this mythical ancestor there is a short list of patriarchs who can be associated to early Scythian ones as recorded by Herodotus.

This period then is followed by the better documented historic Avar-Hun rulers, concluding with the early Hungarian leaders before and after the settlement in the Danubian Basin. They emphasize the strong dynastic bonds with the Huns. The Hun tribes were the heirs of the Scythians by culture and consanguinity. An interesting reference is the burial rites of Scythians and Huns, that were quite similar: the same barrows, burial frames of logs and thick timbers, burial blocks, sacrificial horses etc.

The name of Árpád, the founder of the modern Hungary, can be found in ancient records, from Egypt to Northern Mesopotamia. According to the Hungarian legend of the Turul Hawk (a mythical bird which corresponds to the Sumerian "Dugud"), Ügyek, the descendant of king Magog (the Scythian king Magog lived in Northern Mesopotamia, according to Assyrian records) and a royal leader of the land of Scythia, married the daughter of Ened-Belia, whose name was Emeshe (a word that means "priestess" in Sumerian language). From her was born their first son Álmos. Álmos, who was Árpád's father, is said to be a descendant of Attila the Hun.

Among the very few records attesting the earliest presence of the Huns in western Asia, there are some Persian documents: at Persepolis, there are written on the walls the names of some of the subject nations, among which
Sapardia and Hunae.
Being mentioned one next to the other may indicate that they were neighbours. Scythia, which early Hungarians called Hetmagyar ("Seven Magyars", of whom we speak furtherly) is recorded in the ancient legends of Persia, the Zend Avesta, under the name of "Haetumat", and located in Sakastan (Scythia).
The territories of the Huns at various times stretched from Central Asia to Central Europe, from Siberia and China to North India. To consider them as barbaric "nomads" actually means to ignore their true history and to underestimate them.

Modern researchers in the Huns' old homelands have found quite the opposite: paved streets, stone buildings, agriculture, metallurgy, and even writing. Much less sheep-breeding than the later Mongols who replaced them after they left. Europeans often equated and degraded all horsemen as "nomads and barbarians" even though there were sometimes great cultural differences between different groups.

The Chinese historians clearly distinguish between Mongols and Huns, stating that the earlier Huns were much more advanced than the Mongols who came after them.

As stated previously, the Huns were indeed a complex of peoples rather than a single nation. After their arrival in Europe, the Hun tribes developed their own history and identity; some of them achieved in establishing themselves as an organized state, others were assimilated by non-related nations. Their heritage has been transferred to many Eurasian peoples, including the Uyghurs of Western China and several Turkic and Ugro-Finnic tribes. Indeed, they were no longer regarded as "Huns" and were considered separately. Two of them have given their name to modern European states: the Bulgars and the Magyars.







The Magyar-Uygur "Connection"


Highly interesting in the quest for the ancient Hungarian homeland have been recent efforts to study the Magyar-Uygur connection. The Uygurs are a people with a Caucasian appearance in the Xinjiang province of China. This region still reflects its ancient role as a meeting place of Chinese civilization and Central Asia's nomadic peoples. Here, members of a dozen ethnic groups outnumber the nationally predominant Han Chinese. The largest among them are the Uygurs, 7 million strong, who still hold fast to their Turkic language.



Uygur woman, racially different than the chinese

The Uygurs inhabit the Tarim Basin and a chain of oases between the forbidding Taklamakan and Gobi deserts. Traversing the region is a 4,000 mile trade route used by caravans traveling from China to the shores of the Mediterranean. Taklamakan "in the folklore of the Uygurs means once you get in, you can never get out." Over the centuries the Uygurs have built intricate canal systems for waters originating in the snow-covered mountain ranges to the north. They also dug wells to supply water for growing grains, fruit, vegetables and cotton. At the Uygurs' northern border stretches the Dzungarian Basin, a steppe-like region where dry grain - farming is practiced.

The very name Dzungaria has a striking similarity to Hungaria, the Latin word for Hungary, a word still used in poetic terms in Hungary today. Northeast of Dzungaria lies the Altai Mountain Range, a name used by linguists in defining the Ural-Altaic language group to which Magyar also belongs. Further to the north stretches the Lake Baykal region. It is from here that first the Scythians, then the Huns emerged to conquer the Turanian Plain. The Magyars, Uygurs and the Turks may also have started their migrations from the northeastern part of the Baykal area.

Given all these circumstances, it is no wonder that the most famous Hungarian explorer, Sándor Körösi-Csoma, pointed toward the land of the Uygurs in his quest, which started in 1819, for the ancient Magyar homeland. Unfortunately, neither he nor Ármin Vámbéry, another Hungarian explorer of international fame, was able to reach the land of the Uygurs, due to forbidding deserts and mountain ranges, and marauding bandits. Sir Aurél Stein. a third internationally famous Hungarian explorer did succeed in reaching Xinjiang with his expedition in 1913, but exploring the Uygur area regarding the origin of the Magyars was beyond his mission of collecting artifacts for the British Museum.

It was not until the 1980s that Hungarian orientalists could finally overcome natural and political barriers to finally take a good look at the Uygurs. They returned impressed by what they had seen, and one after the other gave glowing accounts, documented by audio-visual presentations, of the similarities in facial features, music and folk arts. In addition, reports mention that the Uygurs have an unwritten tradition about their kinship with the Magyars whom they call "vingirs," and who had left many centuries earlier finally emerging as "conquerors" in Europe.


Until further anthropological, archeological and linguistic research is conducted, however, drawing definite conclusions would be premature.

This might take long years, because in April, 1990 China declared Xinjiang an "off limit" area again to foreigners. Anti-Chinese agitation among the Uygurs is attributed to the ban.

However, one fact stands out in the labyrinth of various theories and that is the undeniable Asiatic influence which is expressed in various forms among Hungarians even today.

Legends and folk tales reach back much further in time than the pens of historians. Magyar folk tales are strikingly similar to those of Asian peoples. The structure of Magyar folk music, which uses the pentatonic scale, also points to Asian origins. "We actually have two mother tongues," said Zoltán Kodály, the Hungarian musical genius of this century. "One is the spoken language of Finno-Ugric origin, and the other is the language of our music, which is the westernmost branch of a great Asian musical culture extending from China through Middle Asia to our area."

The famous gate ornaments of the Székelys in Transylvania bear a strong resemblance to those in the pagodas of China. Their tombstones (made of wood) are similar to those seen in Chinese cemeteries. Interestingly, the color of mourning in some parts of Hungary, notably in Somogy County, is the same as in parts of Asia - white. Hungarian cuisine - using strong spices and seasonings such as paprika, pepper, saffron, and ginger - also bears the imprint of Asian influence. as do the patterns used in national folk costumes.

Former premier Count Pál Teleki, perhaps the highest authority on Hungarian history and geography, once said: "I profess with pride, both here and abroad, that we are a people of Asian origin!"


The Hun and Avar Connection

The best known Magyar folk tale is the Legend of the White Stag.. It describes how two sons of Nimrod, Hunor and Magor, were lured into a new land by a fleeing white stag. There they married the king's daughters. The descendants of Hunor and his men became known as the Huns, and the descendants of Magor and his men became known as Magyars.

This legend contains a grain of truth in that it points to the common origin of the Huns and Magyars, which Hungarians have known since time immemorial. Surprisingly, Hungarians are proud of their origin despite the bad reputation given to the Huns and their leader, Attila, by Western history books. Most writings describe Attila the Hun as cruel and ruthless, with one notable exception - the famous German Nibelungen-Lied mentions him thus: "There was a mighty king in the land of the Huns whose goodness and wisdom had no equal."

Wherever the truth may lie, cruelty and man's inhumanity to man have always been characteristics of human behavior. Actually, the Vandals were much worse than the Huns, so much so that their terrible "character" has been immortalized by the word "vandal" itself. In comparison, Attila was also less cruel than Cortez, Pizarro, and Ivan the Terrible. Would these conquerors have shown Rome mercy, as Attila did, when the Pope pleaded with him outside the gates of the Eternal City? Genserich, Belizar the Saracens, the Norsemen, and 1000 years later (in 1527) the German and Spanish mercenary troops all pillaged Rome without heed.

In the midst of Oriental and barbaric splendor, Attila's simplicity stamped him a true soldier. Delegates from Byzantium related with wonder that the mighty Hun chief used only a wooden goblet and wooden plate during the sumptuous banquets they had attended.

At that time. Attila's empire extended from the Rhine River to the Caspian Sea, and from the Baltic Sea to the Lower Danube. But. as with many quickly created empires. Attila's realm fell to pieces soon after his early death on his nuptial night in 453 A.D. Rivalry broke out among his sons, and the Huns who had threatened Gaul and Rome withdrew to the East between the Don and Kuhan rivers. There they disintegrated into various nomadic tribes.

After the tide of the Huns had peaked and ebbed, further waves of peoples moved in to take their place, but all were crushed by the Avars, a quickly emerging branch of the Ural-Altaic group.
They succeeded in founding an empire whose heart was in the area once held by the Huns: the territory between the Danube and Tisza rivers in the Carpathian Basin. The Avars' peculiar weapon was the gladius hunnicus, the Huns' curved sabre. They raised circular bulwarks and dug entrenchments, the traces of which can still be seen in scattered locations.

The Avars' downfall was hastened by the development of Charlemagne's Frankish Empire. Their armies clashed in a fierce war of attrition that lasted seven years, from 796 to 803 A.D.
After their defeat by Frankish troops, most Avar tribes returned to the slopes of the Caucasian Mountains. Some others, however, stayed and mingled with the Slavs of the area and later with the Magyars.

When the Magyars tinder Árpád arrived in their new homeland, they found that they were welcomed as brethren by the sparse population ill some areas. According to the Teri-i-Üngürüsz chronicle: "When they arrived in the land, they saw its many rivers teeming with fish, the land rich in fruits and vegetables, and members of other tribes, some of whom understood their language."

But this seemingly simple progression into the Carpathian Basin is only part of the story, as we shall see.


Black Magyars and White Magyars

Ancient Chinese geographical directions, not skin color, form the basis for the distinction between the "black" branch and the "white" branch of the Magyars.

Contrary to the Western compass, the Chinese held that there were, five cardinal directions, the fifth being "the center of the universe", China itself. Each of the five directions was symbolized by a color.

The central point, China, was indicated by yellow, for the gold that befit His Imperial Highness. The North, so often shrouded by the dark of Arctic nights, was black. The West was given white, a color that reflected the blinding white sands of the vast deserts on the western horizon. Red denoted the sunny South, and the East was symbolized by blue, the color of the ocean eternally washing China's eastern shores.

Based on these color symbols, the White Magyars ("white ugurs") represented the Western branch of their race. According to ancient Russian chronicles, the White Magyars appeared in the Carpathian Basin as early as 670-680 A.D., first with the Bulgars, and later with the Avars.

The second branch of Magyar tribes - called Black Magyars in ancient Russian chronicles - took a different route. The directions that route took are still debated by Finno-Ugrian and orientalist theorists, but the final outcome is that the Black Magyars became connected with peoples belonging to the Ural-Altaic groups. These included a range of peoples from Manchuria to Turkey.

Among these groups the Finno-Ugrian/Magyars drew closest to the Turks, who were fierce warriors with a talent for statecraft. This association with the Turks created a new blend of Magyar: Finno-Ugrian in language but Ural-Altaic in culture. This was the breed of Magyars that in 896 A.D. would ride into the Carpathian Basin under Árpád - following the footsteps of the 'White Magyars who appeared in the Carpathian Basin in the 670s A.D. But for now, Árpád's Magyars were still many hundreds of miles away from that area, engaged in a struggle for survival among warlike nomads.

In a protracted scramble for living space, the Magyars were pushed closer to the West by their powerful enemies, the Petchenegs (bessenyök), until they settled in what was called Lebedia, named after their leader, Lebed. But the relentless onslaught of their enemies continued and finally, breaking under the strain, a small group of Magyars split from the main body and moved back to their former homeland in the Volga region, Baskiria (later dubbed Magna Hungaria).

The main group moved farther west and attempted to settle an area known as Etelköz, between several rivers, not far from the foothills of the Carpathians. Even here, in Etelköz, Bulgarian and Petcheneg harassment continued.

About this time, in the eighth and ninth centuries, Christian missionaries frequently traveled over the Carpathian Mountains, bringing with them news of Pannonia, the western part of the Carpathian Basin beyond the Danube. Their tales rekindled memories of the Hun-Avar-Magyar kinship and must surely have played a major role in pushing the leaders of the Magyar tribes to a fateful decision: they must find a new homeland,. defensible against present and future enemies. What followed was the Hungarian equivalent of "Westward, ho'."

Hungarian Mythology, the White Stag
Nimrud, the great legendary ruler of ancient Sumeria

Hungarian mythology tells the story of the Hungarians (Huns and Magyars) from their origins to the foundation of the Hun Empire and of its successor state, Hungary. This traditional account, which goes back thousands of years, has been preserved by the Hungarian people despite the centuries of persecution by a foreign christianization imposed by force and which sought to destroy all traces of the ancient Hungarian culture.


An ancient Scythian legend tells of the Sword of God. Those in possession of this sword are invincible and are destined to rule the world. This is also the sword of Hungarian mythology (Isten Kardja). Atilla, the great leader of the Huns, acquires this sword. This is a sign from God that he is to be the most powerful ruler on Earth. Atilla then succeeds to defeat the Barbarian tribes and the Roman Empire, uniting the Huns into the most powerful empire in the world. He is seen as the scourge of God, sent to punish and destroy evil.


Following Atilla's untimely death resulting from an assassination plot, the German tribes of the Hun Empire turned against the Huns. Fierce battles ensued. One of the Hun tribes, the Székely people of Transylvania, stood guarding the Hun positions in the Eastern Carpathians while Atilla's sons led the military campaigns against the enemies of the Hun Empire. Csaba, Atilla's youngest son promised the Székely people that he would return with reinforcements from the East to protect them against the enemies of the Huns. This he did on several occasions as the neighbouring peoples continued their aggressions against the Huns.

Even long after Csaba had joined his ancestors among the stars of the heavens, his army of invincible Hun warriors returned from the other world along the starry path of the Milky Way, which the Hungarians call "Hadak Utja", the road of the warriors, in order to defend the Székelys. This story represents the firm knowledge that the Huns will return to protect their kinsmen against foreign aggression, and their determination never to give up the Carpathians: this region was the heart of the Hun Empire and had always belonged to their kind.







Nimrud was the great legendary ruler of ancient Sumeria. One day, his two sons, Hunor and Magor went hunting. They saw a great white stag which they pursued. The stag continuously eluded them and led them to a beautiful and bountiful land. This vast land was Scythia, where Hunor and Magor eventually settled with their people.

The descendants of Hunor's people were the Huns, and the descendants of Magor's people were the Magyars. As they grew in strength and numbers, first the Huns, and then the Magyars went on to conquer new lands.

This story not only symbolizes the close ethnic relationship between the Huns and the Magyars, it is also a clear reference to their Sumerian and Scythian origins. The stag has also been an important symbol in the Sumerian and Scythian cultures.

The mythical story of the white stag illustrates how myths and legends can be based on historical facts as the archeological and ethno-linguistic evidence supports the Sumerian-Scythian-Hun-Magyar relationship which is told by this story in ancient traditional mythological form.

Just as in Sumerian and Scythian myhtology, in Hungarian mythology, the stag is also seen as a mystical being with magical powers and whose role was to indicate the will of god and to guide the Hungarians accordingly.



Hungarian white stag


Summerian decoration

Hungarian Mythology the Turul Bird


A Hungarian legend tells the story of Emese, wife of Ügyek the descendant of Atilla, who once had a dream in which a Turul appeared to her. In this dream, a crystal-clear stream started to flow from her, and as it moved Westward, it grew into a mighty river. This dream represented her symbolic impregnation by the Turul, and meant that she would give birth to a line of great rulers. Emese later gave birth to Álmos, who was the father of Árpád, the great leader of the Magyars and founder of Hungary. This story reaffirms the Hun-Magyar kinship, and the knowledge that the Magyars reconquered Hungary as their rightful inheritance from Atilla's great Hun Empire.

The great mythical Turul bird of prey is one of the most important symbols of the Hungarians. It represents their god's power and will. The Turul was seen as the ancestor of Atilla, and it was also the symbol of the Huns. The Hungarian Turul is often represented carrying the flaming Sword of God.




Huns, Hunogurs and Magyars

Origins of the Hungarian Nation

The Hungarians have an interesting and complex history about their origins, that in different versions, historic or legendary, always indicate an association of two main peoples, to which other tribes joined. In the dawn of history, they are directly related to Sumerians and Scythians, with contribution of Subartians, Mitanni, Hurrites and Elamites. After their long "wandering" in Asia, they make irruption in European history in different migratory waves, first as Huns and then as Magyars, but also Onogurs (all these groups related to both Scythians and Sumerians), and mixed with Khazars, Alans, Avars and other Turkic tribes, including the Hurritic Khwarezmians.

In fact, their nation is still widely recognized under two different names: Magyarország and Hungária. The controversy still subsists, if the Magyars were Huns or not. There are elements that suggest that Magyars and Huns were one and the same people in ancient Mesopotamia, and that in early times migrated in different stages, thus becoming separate groups that developed independently, though being always in touch with each other. Conventionally, we have to give a name to that original stock (being itself a mixture of Sumerians and Scythians), and either that name is Hun or Magyar is of secondary importance, though the term "Magyar" seems to be the oldest of both. Nevertheless, this term became the name of one single tribe, while Huns is suitable to the whole; therefore, we can define the Magyars as one of the Hun tribes, probably, the Sumerian/Mitanni component of the Scythian tribes that later became the Huns.

In other languages usually both names are used to identify the nation, though it seems that in the Middle Ages they were not exactly equivalent, and that Magyar-related terms referred to the language most widely spoken by the inhabitants of the Hun-related lands. It is a commonplace that the name Hungaria is connected with the Hun peoples. When in the year 4656 (896 c.e.) the Magyars, coming from the east, started multitude of raiding parties that recalled to Western Europeans' mind the invasions of Attila, they were called "Hungars", not Magyars. Of course, Hungarus is not exactly Hun; and even though the two names resemble each other, there is a "g" added to "Hun" that has not any apparent linguistic explanation. Where this "g" might have come from will be explained furtherly.

In 5248 (1488 c.e.) it was published a printed chronicle, Chronica Hungarorum (Thuroczy, 1488). All the four authors were high members of the royal administration; so the texts must reflect the official opinion about Hungarian history. All of them suggest a direct connection between Attila the Hun and the Hungarian kings. The chronicle was written in Latin. It is recurrent in the text the "Hunni, sive Hungari" expression, that does not need any explanation because of the similarity of the names. However the usual Magyar translation is "hunok, azaz magyarok", "Huns, namely Magyars", which means a nontrivial identification. Still, this equation is also explicit in the chronicle, that refers to the two forefathers of the nation, two Biblical patriarchs, Nimrod the "great hunter before Elohim" (and king of the Sumerians) and Magog, son of Yephet (ancestor of the Scythians). Nimrod's wife was Eneh, and their two sons were Hunor & Magor. Once they went to hunt a white female deer, who led them to new lands in the marshes of Maiotis. Thence came the Hungarian nation, according to the legend.

Nevertheless, the term "Hungarus" may have another origin: Attila's son Irnak re-organized the Hun hordes in the Volga-Don area. According to Bulgarian history, Asparuch, the founder of present Balkan Bulgaria in 4441 (681 c.e.) belonged to the lineage of Irnak, who was the head of the Bulgarian dynasty. Therefore, it is certain the fact that Irnak organized a new tribal alliance in the Maiotis region. The tribes associated in this "Bulgarian" alliance are called Onogur. "On Ogur" means Ten Tribe[s] or Ten Arrow[s], tribes symbolised by arrows. Even though in modern Turkish the expression would be On Oguz, the form "ogur" is characteristic for a well defined minority group of Turkic languages, of which a surviving one is the Chuvash, spoken by the direct descendants of the Volga Bulgars. Being these ten tribes an alliance of Hun peoples (or predominantly composed by Huns), they are as well called "Hun Ogur", meaning Hun Tribe[s]. Therefore, the name "Hungaria" may come from Hunogur, and the "g" missing in the word Hun is now explained.


Notwithstanding, some Magyar historians that are overcautious about Hun-Magyar connections, suggest that the name of Hungary comes from Onogur, being the "h" a later addition. Indeed, in some languages the initial "h" is missing, like in German (Ungarn) or Romanian (Ungur), and the initial "u" became "v" in Slavic languages.

Some historians suggested a possible identification of the Huns with the Xiung-nu (or Hsiung-nu) of the Chinese chronicles, but it has still not been proven. Nevertheless, there is another people in China closely related to the Huns, and recent discoveries show amazing resemblances with Hungarians: the Uyghurs, whose land is historically called "Dzhungharia". Uyghurs played important roles in the Asiatic Hun empire during about six centuries, and then in the Kök Turk kingdom, from which Khazars arose. Even being so far away, their relationship with Huns and Khazars are significant so much that they seem to be the eastern counterpart of the Magyars. The Uyghur archaeological evidence is important to confirm the Hun-Magyar connection as well, crediting the historicity of the original account from which the Hungarian legends came.

There are two main mythical accounts regarding the origin of Hungarians: one is the legend of the " White Stag", frequently mentioned before, that describes the story of Nimrod's sons, Hunor and Magor. They were pursuing a female stag that led them into a foreign land and there she vanished without leaving any trace. The disappointed hunters met there two sisters, princesses of the Alans, kidnapped and married them. Thus they became the forefathers of Huns and Magyars. There is another version of this legend (in Simon Kézai's "Gesta Hungarorum"), according to which the two brothers arrived in the marshes of Maiotis while pursuing a hind that they did not find any more.

Anyway, they found the land suitable for raising livestock, and settled there. After some years, they married the two daughters of the prince of the Alans, and became the forefathers of all the Huns (Magyars are not mentioned in this version).
This legend in both versions acknowledges a third party, the Alans, who actually contributed to the ethnogenesis of modern Hungarians. The stag is relevant in Scythian mythology, and this legend remarks the Scythian origin of Hungarians.

The second account is the legend of the Turul Hawk, mentioned before, that belongs to the Sumerian ancestry. The Turul is the symbol of both the house of Attila the Hun and the Magyar dynasty of Árpád. The mythical story explains that Ügyek, a descendant of Magog, was the king of Scythians and married Emeshe, a Sumerian princess, from whom Álmos was born after a Turul hawk came from heaven and made her fertile. In the same vision, she saw her descendants to be kings in a far away land in the west. The characteristic aspect of this legend, that credits the actual Sumerian origin of Magyars, is that Álmos is described as dark complexioned and black-eyed (indeed, it would seem rather unexplainable that Hungarians and Ethiopians share a common ancestor, Kush, but the original nations should have been very few in the dawn of history, becoming many diversified peoples by migration and mixture).

It is also remarkable the fact that in modern Hungarian the name Álmos means sleepy/dreamer, but the ancient Ugrian form of the word dream was Adom, Adam, similar to the Hebrew for "man". Álmos was the father of Árpád, the founder of modern Hungary.

Hungarians today call themselves "Magyar". This name, as it was said before, is likely related to the ancient land of Magar or Matiene and the Mitanni people in Northern Mesopotamia. However, since their myth of origins is more explicitly referred to the ancient Sumerians, it is interesting to notice that Sumerians called themselves and their language "Emegir" (a word with apparent resemblance with Magyar), and their country was called Kiengi.

With certainty, Hungarians had multiple origins. The Magyars were the leading tribe of the alliance that conquered the Danubian Basin in 4656 (896 c.e.). They found there the remnants of the Avars, from 4328 (568 c.e.), and also the Hunogurs dwelling there from 4440 (680 c.e.). Hunogurs and Magyars indeed shared a long-lasting relationship in Khazaria, either alliance or rivalry. Magyars were first allied with the Khazars against the Hunogur/Bulgar tribes, in a subsequent period the rebel Khazars (Kabars) and Hunogur clans joined the Magyars. -The term Hunogur is often used as equivalent to Bulgar, what is not thoroughly exact. Bulgars had for a long time a prevailing position in the Hunogur complex, but in later times the Hunogurs sealed alliance with the Magyars.-

Magyars were organized in a confederacy of seven tribes. The Alliance of Hetmagyar [Seven Magyars] was a border defender ally of Khazaria mainly during the reign of Kings Bulan and Ovadyah. The Alliance of Seven Magyar consisted of the following tribes: Jenô, Kér, Keszi, Kürt-Gyarmat, Megyer, Nyék, Tarján. The Kabars joined them later, when they turned against the Khazars. Some of these seven tribes were probably part of the On-Ogur [ten tribes], consequently, Magyars took the leadership of part of the Hunogurs dwelling in Khazaria and started their move to the west. When they reached the Carpathian-Danubian Basin, they came across other Hunogur tribes dwelling there since about two centuries before, and those settled there with the Avars. The migration from Khazaria and Levedia to the present-day Hungary was completed after the collapse of the Khazar Empire, with many Khazars taking refuge in the realm of their old allies and rivals. Other groups like Kiptchaks (Kumans), Yazygs (Sarmatians), etc. added their contribution in composing the modern Hungarian nation.

Even though the largest number of the Magyars migrated westwards, many remained in the Caucasus and others moved north between the Volga Bulgarian land and the Ural Mountains, present-day Bashkiria. Indeed, four of the seven Hungarian tribal names (Yeney/Jenô, Djurmati/Gyarmat, Tamyan/Tarján, Girei/Kér) are still found in Bashkiria. The very term "Bashkir" is a Turkic misspelling of Magyar, and neighbouring peoples call the Bashkirs in a similar way as Hungarians call themselves (Mozerjan/Magyar).

When the Mongols invaded Hungary they had previously run over the Bashkirs' land, and applied the same name to both Hungarians and the Bashkirs of the Urals. Early Persian and Arab references relate both peoples as the eastern and western branches of the Hungarians. However, modern Bashkirs are quite different from their original stock, largely decimated during the Mongol invasion, and assimilated into Turkic peoples.

The definitive establishment of the Hungarian nation in the Danubian area was completed with the "Hungarian Resettlement"; nevertheless, in the Carpathian Basin, usually defined as Transylvania (Erdély, Ardeal), there is a consistent Hungarian population that is historically not related to the Seven Magyars alliance: they are the Székely, the main ethnic component of the Hungarian minority in Romania. They are fully acknowledged as Magyars, and according to their own tradition, they are Huns - thus explicitly confirming the identity of Magyars as a Hun tribe.


The legend of their origins identifies in a mythical way Irnak (Attila's son) with an ancient legendary hero, Csaba, thus tracing their own ancestry back to a much earlier age, relating themselves not only with the Huns, but with Hurrians and Sumerians as well. Indeed, the legend of Csaba the shepherd and guardian of the people was originally written in Sumerian. He married a Khwarezmian woman, and Khwarezm was founded by the Hurrians.

There are also Indian accounts that credit historicity to the origin of this legend, regarding the Scythians of the Csaba tribe from Khwarezm, part of which migrated and settled in India.

The Székely people's tradition states that after Attila's empire collapsed, his youngest and favourite son Ernák (Prince Csaba), led them to settle in Transylvania, and they consider themselves to be the descendants of the army of Csaba. He left Örmedzur as their chief.

The Hungarian term "ör" (rendõr - "correction-guard"~ police ~in hungarian) means guard, "medzur" actually sounds like an archaic form of Madzar (Magyar), the ruling tribe found amongst eastern Scythians . Therefore, Ör-medzur is likely a title meaning "Magyar guard".


The Székely people's origin is a matter of historical controversy. It is certain that they were settled in the Carpathian Basin in early times, not only long before the Seven Magyar tribes left their homeland in Khazaria and Levedia, but also before the Bulgarians reached the Balkans.

Scholarly accounts of Székely sources state that they were Huns, disclaiming any other possible ethnicity. When the Seven Magyars met them, they found a people speaking the very same language, and having the same Runic writing system, called Rovás (Hun/Magyar/Székely Rovásírás). Also the " Tarihi Üngürüs" confirms the great affinity between both peoples and their common language, a remarkable fact considering that they were geographically separated from each other for at least three or four centuries.

To conclude, we can say with certainty that the Magyars were originally Huns, and probably one of the Hunogur tribes, consequently, very closely related to the Bulgars.

Their ancestry concerning Biblical patriarchs can be traced to Kush, forefather of the Sumerians, and Magog, the Scythians. Since the Alans have also contributed, their third ancestor is Meshekh.
As it was stated in the beginning of this chapter, they have been in some way related with the Israelites in different times along history. In fact, Avraham was an inhabitant of Ur and had Sumerian neighbours; then he settled in Charan, that is Subartu and Magor, the land of the Hurrites and Mitanni. Centuries later, the Northern Israelites were exiled in Assyria and Media, and from those lands most of them migrated eastwards, as many of them have been living in China until recent times.

It is even possible that intermarriage occurred with Huns, as well as with Khazars. Since the fifth century b.c.e., Jews settled in Central Asia and around the Caspian Sea established peaceful exchange with the Huns and the other peoples of the region. Then, the Khazar leadership adopted Judaism. After the Khazar Empire collapsed, many Khazarian Jews took refuge in Hungary. The Hungarian Jewry enjoys a rich cultural heritage from both east and west, and has actively contributed in the development of modern Hungary.


sources:
http://www.hunmagyar.org/
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/hunspir/hsp05.htm
http://www.imninalu.net/Huns.htm
http://econc10.bu.edu/economic_systems/NatIdentity/EE/Hungary/magyars2_lg.htmhttp://www.imninalu.net/Huns.htm

[Szegedist]

Yes. If they want to be Asians, let them be it.

Pál Teleki: "I profess with pride, both here and abroad, that we are a people of Asian origin."

[Twistedmind]

Genetically, Serbs and Hungarians are quite different, except Serbs from so called "Vojvodina" (apart from the recent colonizers)
:picard1:
No. Serbs and Hungarians are gennetically close. I dont give care about it. You should do as well.




We are not Slavs, and that is the end of it.
Who said you are?



You talk about our genetics, while your genetics are far cry from being Slavic, even a Serb must realize this.
What genentics have to do it? But if you are interested, Serbs have 30% of Slavic admix, and it was biggest, next is Illyrian (21%) and so on. It is acctually biggest Slavic admix among Southern Slavs, but it does not make sombody more or less Slavic.
Stop speaking about Gnnetic researches, since you are obviously ignorant on it.

[Szegedist]

:picard1:
No. Serbs and Hungarians are gennetically close. I dont give care about it. You should do as well. Proof please.

[Twistedmind]

Proof please.
:bored: Look at pic, Hu is Hungary, RS is Serbia. Even you could see that two are close. :bored:

[Szegedist]

:bored: Look at pic, Hu is Hungary, RS is Serbia. Even you could see that two are close. :bored:

Is that all you have?
Try this:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Twistedmind]

Is that all you have?
Try this:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
:rotfl2 :rotfl2 :rotfl2
Little explaination. Y chromosome holds just few genes. Rest 45 contain millions of genes. Do you see how stupid your "proof" is?

[Lena]

We are not Slavs, and that is the end of it.



In general, you're not Slavs sure thing, not in a political sense nor linguistic one. Still, fact stands that many Slavs influenced your history (aham, their names have been written as Hungarian ones), I listed only very few that came to my mind right away. Or last names such are Toth, Horvath, Racz...?

[Szegedist]

:rotfl2 :rotfl2 :rotfl2
Little explaination. Y chromosome holds just few genes. Rest 45 contain millions of genes. Do you see how stupid your "proof" is stupid.

Your proof is even dumber, some picture you pulled out of your own arse. :bored:

[Szegedist]

In general, you're not Slavs sure thing, not in a political sense nor linguistic one. Still, fact stands that many Slavs influenced your history (aham, their names has been written as Hungarian ones), I listed only very few that came to my mind right away. Or last names such are Toth, Horvath, Racz...?

I do not deny Slavic influence in Hungary, just like you shouldn't deny Turkish or Byzantine influence in Serbia. Deal?

[Corvus]

In general, you're not Slavs sure thing, not in a political sense nor linguistic one. Still, fact stands that many Slavs influenced your history (aham, their names has been written as Hungarian ones), I listed only very few that came to my mind right away. Or last names such are Toth, Horvath, Racz...?

True, intresting names you mention. Actually you find them all in an Eastern Austrian telephone book too :p

[Twistedmind]

Your proof is even dumber, some picture you pulled out of your own arse.
:picard1:
No it is based on Autosomal DNA (millions of other genes.)
Stop whining as child. If you dont like this results, go and do some other researches. But for God's sake, first learn something about Gennetics, and latter about Ethnography.


I do not deny Slavic influence in Hungary, just like you shouldn't deny Turkish or Byzantine influence in Serbia. Deal?

We dont have signifcant gennetic imapct of Turks. Learn to live with it. :D

[Szegedist]

[/B]

True, intresting names you mention. Actually you find them all in an Eastern Austrian telephone book too :p

Burgenland? That land used to be part of Hungary, and many Croats, Hungarians, Slovenes lived there, probably why.

[Corvus]

Burgenland? That land used to be part of Hungary, and many Croats, Hungarians, Slovenes lived there, probably why.

Esp. in Burgenland, but also in all other Eastern Austrian provinces.
Lower Austria, Styria and in particular Vienna
A heritage of the Austrian Hungarian Empire

[Szegedist]

:picard1:
No it is based on Autosomal DNA (millions of other genes.)
Stop whining as child. If you dont like this results, go and do some other researches. But for God's sake, first learn something about Gennetics, and latter about Ethnography.

I am Turanic and proud, not Slavic, not Germanic, not Indo-European, if you have a problem with that, take it somewhere else, but nobody here is interested in your pan-Slavic propaganda.

[Twistedmind]

I am Turanic and proud,.
Good for you. :thumb001:

[746384374837483]

gone

[Szegedist]

We dont have signifcant gennetic imapct of Turks. Learn to live with it. :D
roEmNHJSUNM

[Lena]

I do not deny Slavic influence in Hungary, just like you shouldn't deny Turkish or Byzantine influence in Serbia. Deal?

Why do you label myself as some kind of denier? lol!
To me both influences, Byzantine and Ottoman, are obvious in our unique blend of architecture and specific style developed in our country. When it comes to linguistic influence, it's relatively minor today... something like less than 500 active loanwords with a tendency to decline in number, which are 'legacy' of Ottomans. Fair enough?

[Twistedmind]

roEmNHJSUNM

:picard1:
Serbian song is supposedly riped from Turks. :picard1: Gennetic proof :bored:
:rotfl2 :rotfl :rotfl2 :rotfl

If you meant on culture? Yes we had some influence of Ottomans, and when it comes to Byzantines, all orthodox peoples are extreemly proud of it. You could not use it as insult :picard1:

Take easy, I was saying gennetically, Hungarians cluster with people arround them. And nobody could deny it. Now, go and be Turanic, and keep Serbs to be Slavic.

[Onur]

Hungarian Mythology the Turul Bird

A Hungarian legend tells the story of Emese, wife of Ügyek the descendant of Atilla, who once had a dream in which a Turul appeared to her. In this dream, a crystal-clear stream started to flow from her, and as it moved Westward, it grew into a mighty river. This dream represented her symbolic impregnation by the Turul, and meant that she would give birth to a line of great rulers. Emese later gave birth to Álmos, who was the father of Árpád, the great leader of the Magyars and founder of Hungary. This story reaffirms the Hun-Magyar kinship, and the knowledge that the Magyars reconquered Hungary as their rightful inheritance from Atilla's great Hun Empire.

The great mythical Turul bird of prey is one of the most important symbols of the Hungarians. It represents their god's power and will. The Turul was seen as the ancestor of Atilla, and it was also the symbol of the Huns. The Hungarian Turul is often represented carrying the flaming Sword of God.
The myth of Turul comes from our common Tengrist/Shamanist/Animist culture. It exists in Turkic(ish) culture too.

Hungarian people calls this falcon as "Turul" but it`s a Turkic word meaning "falcon";

The Turul is probably based on a large falcon, and the origin of the word is most likely Turkic: togrıl or turgul means a medium to large bird of prey of the family Accipitridae, Goshawk or Red Kite.[4] In Hungarian the word sólyom means falcon, and there are three ancient words describing different kinds of falcons: kerecsen (saker), zongor [Turkish Sungur = Gyrfalcon] (which survives in the male name Zsombor) and turul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turul


Turul/Tugrul was also a tamga(symbol) of the Hun Empire of Attila and it`s also a common male name in Turkey even today.

Check this out;
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1690/clipboard0111.jpg

As you can see, one of the leader of Turkish Seljuk Empire in 11th century and the father of the founder of Ottoman dynasty was named as "Tugrul" in 12th century. His name was "Er-Tugrul" but "ER" is just a prefix/suffix for male names in Turkic meaning "man".

Ertuğrul
Ertuğrul(1191/1198 Ahlat – 1281 Söğüt) was the father of Osman I, the founder of the Ottoman Empire. He was the leader of the Kayı clan of the Oghuz Turks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ertu%C4%9Frul

[Szegedist]

Anyway, I myself feel closer to Turanic people than Slavs or Germanics. Sure, genetically we might be closer to our neigbours, culturally too. But it is something I can't quite put my finger on it, maybe a distant bond?

In Turkey, they show documentaries about Hungary, in Kazakhstan there was a Trianon commemoration. Just these little things that we do not see in Europe, (nor do I expect to.)

For example, this kickboxing champion from Japan:
http://w.kuruc.org/galeriaN/hir/Uehara_barik02.jpg
http://kuruc.info/galeriaN/hir/makotobajnok4.JPG

From my experience, Turkish people have been a lot more supportive of our territorial views than Europeans (be it nationalists or liberals).

After a millennia of lies, deceit from the West, they essentially sacrificed us to be their human shield. It is time for us to rethink our position. Should we follow the Western oriented, pro Vattican, labanc stance, or turn towards our brothers in the East, the Kuruc stance. And I do not say 'brothers' lightly, go to Kurultaj and you will see what I mean, it is an uplifting feeling. We just don't have that kind of relationship with the rest of Europe no matter how much we lie to ourselves (Poland, our one and only time tested friend is an exception to all this)

[Midori]

Maybe for the same reason your FYROMian mother looks like a Gypsy?

My mother inherited her look from her Hungarian side, troll ;)

[Qemist]

:bored: Look at pic, Hu is Hungary, RS is Serbia. Even you could see that two are close. :bored:

Without access to the original I cannot make a judgement, but there seems to be a lack of non-European samples. That would make the figure useless for deciding on Magyars' European-Asiatic status.

Some of the ideas up-thread, such as Hungarians being Sumerians, seem fanciful. I am only new here and have much to learn.

[Twistedmind]

Without access to the original I cannot make a judgement, but there seems to be a lack of non-European samples. That would make the figure useless for deciding on Magyars' European-Asiatic status.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/hungarians.html

and another graph

http://imageshack.us/a/img715/4008/pca12s.png

Anyway, gennetics are not factor in determiniation of ehtnic selfidentifcation.

[Géza]

I dont know if this true;

Magyar:
Zsebemben sok kicsi alma van

Turkish:
Cebimde çok küçük elma var

:D

It would souns like rather "A zsebemben sok kis alma van". The "Cebim and the Zsebem is similar, but the -de locativ suffix is different to -ben locative suffix. The kis/kics and the küçük may be relatives. The "Alma" came from the Turkish "Elma", it is clear. Are the "car" means "is" in Turkish?

This sample sentence is so similar to the Finno-Ugoric sentence: only a isolated one. That is the problem our language is very far to any other.



Number of foreign words means nothing. Farsi have large share of of Semitic words (accoridng to some 50%). But its grammar is Indo-European.

Indo-European originated is that grammar.


Share of Finnic and Uralic people's ancestry among Russians is bit overplayed, and absolutley irrelevant. Russian language is verry Slavic, and verry close, in any way, with rest Slavic languages. Also other Slavs do not have any Finnic or Uralic ancestry, and our languages are those who are acctually closer (Serbian, Czech, Slovak, Slovene)

The ethnic Russian region inhabitated by the Finno-Ugrians before the Slavic conquer. The Slavs were foreign conqerors in Russia as in the Balkan too. The closer distance of Slavic languages is caused by the later divorce.


You are simply a mixture of Slavs, gypsies, pre Balkan people (like the Ilyrians) who speak a Serb langauge.

Hey man, the gypsy is too strong, isn't it? Please hold a cultural way of conversation.


No they don't, and that picture is not a good representative of the diversity of Hungarian folk costumes.

I linked an average costum. I want not link our whole culture.



Also, people are forgetting one thing, that for a long time we were the rurlers of Central Europe, our surrounding states were either our vassals our part of us at one point in time. So no sh*t that WE influenced THEM.

The Franks were the ruler of Gallia and the Gallo-Romans could influence them with a language f.e. Please forget the myth about the Hungarian "Herren Volk" in the Middle Ages. This thought is a simply copy the German Romanticism: "The übermensch tall-blond-aryan Vikings/Hunnic warriors conquer the inferior Roman-Celtic/Slavic peasants and told the how about the high-culture." The real history is a little bit more composit.



I laugh when people say,"Hungarians seem similar to Slovaks, therefore Hungarians are Slavs", when in fact it would be more correct to say it the other way round.

Good morning. This is the true. We are so close and similar to the neighbour Slavs. Deel with it.


And this point is obvious that you do not know what you are talking about. If we go by the so called "Finno-Ugric" theory, our closest languages are Khanty and Mansi.

Nobody spoke about the official Finno-Ugoric theory. I only illaustrated the similarity to the Finno-Ugoric, Slavs and Turkish languages. Please, read the sentences, before start write.


Actually, the Hun-Turan-Scythian has been part of the Hungarian national conciousness far longer than the so called Finno Ugric theory.

Any source doesn't exist about the Huns language or ethnic. Hence we don't know who they are really. The Turanic people are Turkish. The Scythians were Indo-European spoke a Indo-Aryan langauge. We assimilated ethnic groups from all these people, but it doesn't mean we would be Huns or Turks or Scythians. The history is more complex what you think.


:picard1:
Y_DNA groups means nothing. Ask any molecular biologist. :bored:


Y DNA. The Balkanics have I2 Y Haplogroup, isn't it? The Hungarians have more R1a what is the Slav HG.


R1a1 Y HG — We are full of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png



Anyway, according some estimates there is million of Gypsies in Hungary. :D It gave us 550,000 quasi-Hungarians :D
You are last nation in Earth which could accuse anyone for Gypsy influence.

We have 1 million gypsy, thousand of half-caste (so call Hungarians look like Arabs) and hundred-thousend of "Middle-Easterns". Officially all they are "Hungarians".





Intresting discussion. I think it is best the Hungarians should decide themselves where they belong to.
From my own observation and I have met many Hungarians they are physically very diverse like most Central Europeans
Some look Slavic, some Turanic and some East Med or Germanic.
Names also reflect that: Traditional Hungarian names exist side to side with
Magyariszed Slavic names with the peculiar ending -ics and German ones

Indeed, here is a fracture. Some of us (most of us) look like our neighbour, but here is someone with obiviously Asian ancestry. They use to force all we came from Mongolia. We are full of German, West-Slav, South-Slav and Romanian surnames. Plus many family changed own names since the 19th.


But what counts most is the fact that the vast majority of Hungarians feel themselves much closer to Turkey than to Slavic neighbour countries and embrace their allegedly Asian roots with pride.

I wouldn't say this. Rather the Turanist are the laudest. The Germanophilia (German beer, German car, German women) is another endemic among us what is based on an old Germany doesn't exist anymore.



We are not Slavs, and that is the end of it.

Genetically, Serbs and Hungarians are quite different, except Serbs from so called "Vojvodina" (apart from the recent colonizers)

We are mostly Slavs, deel with it. You just serve the agenda of those man want to diverse us and rule us.


I'm actually partially Hungarian myself...

And many of us is partly Serb/Bunevac.



Pál Teleki: "I profess with pride, both here and abroad, that we are a people of Asian origin."

Yeah, and that man looked like an Italian...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/P%C3%A1l_Teleki_01.jpg


Burgenland? That land used to be part of Hungary, and many Croats, Hungarians, Slovenes lived there, probably why.

And many part of Hungary was full of Germans. Great deal. You always forget our Medieval Kingdom was not a National State. Only our elit organized the state.


I am Turanic and proud, not Slavic, not Germanic, not Indo-European, if you have a problem with that, take it somewhere else, but nobody here is interested in your pan-Slavic propaganda.

Yes, and you are Sumerian and Mongolian and Atlantisian and etc. Have you got mirror at home?




The myth of Turul comes from our common Tengrist/Shamanist/Animist culture. It exists in Turkic(ish) culture too.

Hungarian people calls this falcon as "Turul" but it`s a Turkic word meaning "falcon";


Indeed, this word came from the Turkish language like as many other. We have mixed origine.

For example, this kickboxing champion from Japan:


Anyway, I myself feel closer to Turanic people than Slavs or Germanics. Sure, genetically we might be closer to our neigbours, culturally too. But it is something I can't quite put my finger on it, maybe a distant bond?

our brothers in the East, the Kuruc stance.

This site posted the picture of this sportsmans use to post articles about Hitler or the German-Hungarian brotherhood, etc. Did you say East? The East-Slavs are eastern hence. :)


Szegedist may be a victim of the Turanist campaign among us. Our ancestry is far more complex thant these simple theories would be able to explain it.

[Twistedmind]

Indo-European originated is that grammar.
Yep, that was my point.



The ethnic Russian region inhabitated by the Finno-Ugrians before the Slavic conquer. The Slavs were foreign conqerors in Russia as in the Balkan too. The closer distance of Slavic languages is caused by the later divorce.

I allready know that. But like I said, Finno-Ugric influence on Russians as whole is bit overplayed. But I do not negate it. :) But I also dont think it should be negated.
Here is rough abstract of researches on Russians.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/russians.html




Y DNA. The Balkanics have I2 Y Haplogroup, isn't it?

Not for all Balkanian peoples. It is charahteristic for Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks. Others are more EV-13.




The Hungarians have more R1a what is the Slav HG.

Well, not all R1a is Slavic. There are many different subclades, some being charachteristic for Central Asians, some for India, some for Slavs etc :) Y_DNA haplogroups are good for tracing migrations, but not really helpfull when determining relations of certain population. :)

http://zelas.blog.bg/photos/104544/original/R1a-ch.jpg

But, I agree that Hungary has more r1a than South Slavs (probably more of Slavic specifical subclades) :)



We have 1 million gypsy, thousand of half-caste (so call Hungarians look like Arabs) and hundred-thousend of "Middle-Easterns". Officially all they are "Hungarians".
I did not wish to prove you as Gypsies. Hungarians (ethnic ones) are fully Europeans, and it was my point in this thread.



We are mostly Slavs, deel with it. You just serve the agenda of those man want to diverse us and rule us.

I would say all of you are Hungarians. Many have Slavic ancestry :) Ethnicity is matter of choice, more than gennetics. :)

[Géza]

I allready know that. But like I said, Finno-Ugric influence on Russians as whole is bit overplayed. But I do not negate it. :) But I also dont think it should be negated.
Here is rough abstract of researches on Russians.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/russians.html


Note: the ancient Finno-Ugric is not necessary equal with Asian looking Siberians. Estonians look like Slavs for me.



Not for all Balkanian peoples. It is charahteristic for Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks. Others are more EV-13.

Yers, the I2 may be the original Balkanic HG, the E may come with the Middle-Eastern farmers or later.




Well, not all R1a is Slavic. There are many different subclades, some being charachteristic for Central Asians, some for India, some for Slavs etc :) Y_DNA haplogroups are good for tracing migrations, but not really helpfull when determining relations of certain population. :)

http://zelas.blog.bg/photos/104544/original/R1a-ch.jpg

But, I agree that Hungary has more r1a than South Slavs (probably more of Slavic specifical subclades) :)

R1a1 came with the Indo-Aryans to Asia from the Pontic Steppe. They Satem languages may be very close to the Proto-Slav/Proto-Balto-Slav.



I did not wish to prove you as Gypsies. Hungarians (ethnic ones) are fully Europeans, and it was my point in this thread.

I refferred to my little bit chauvinist and turbo-Turanist countrymate. :)



I would say all of you are Hungarians. Many have Slavic ancestry :) Ethnicity is matter of choice, more than gennetics. :)

I think it is far more composite than choices of individuals.

[Twistedmind]

Note: the ancient Finno-Ugric is not necessary equal with Asian looking Siberians. Estonians look like Slavs for me.

Of course not. Finns and Estonians are European looking, same as Karelianas, Hungarians etc. I just said, not all parts of Russia had Finninc pre-Slavic settlement. Some have East Baltic substratum etc. Like Hungarian gennetic origins, are complex.



Yers, the I2 may be the original Balkanic HG, the E may come with the Middle-Eastern farmers or later.
There is lot of theories about it. Some claim it came from Poland. Here is its distribution. :)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png/800px-HaplogroupI2.png




R1a1 came with the Indo-Aryans to Asia from the Pontic Steppe. They Satem languages may be very close to the Proto-Slav/Proto-Balto-Slav.

Acctually Balto-Slavic languages are Satem. :) I agree that R1a1 is characteristic for Slavs. :)




I refferred to my little bit chauvinist and turbo-Turanist countrymate. :)

I see. :)



Hungarian use to think it base on the genes. Mert kutyából nem lesz szalonna.

[Szegedist]

I linked an average costum. I want not link our whole culture.

Except that costume is not average.


Good morning. This is the true. We are so close and similar to the neighbour Slavs. Deel with it.
A non-people like the tót is not a good comparison.



The Germanophilia (German beer, German car, German women) is another endemic among us what is based on an old Germany doesn't exist anymore.

Yes, especially if you are a labanc.




We are mostly Slavs, deel with it. You just serve the agenda of those man want to diverse us and rule us.
No, it is you, who is trying to force a Slavic identity on us, you are the one serving the agenda of the globalists. Still upset that SzDSz is finished, eh?


Szegedist may be a victim of the Turanist campaign among us. Our ancestry is far more complex thant these simple theories would be able to explain it.
Do Serbs identify with the Ilyrians? Do the French identity with the Gauls? So why should we be any less of a national identity, and be "Slavs"?
Why don't you go and in Slovakia then and live with your Slavic brothers, maybe learn Slovak while you are at it, and be a proud Slav? :rolleyes:


http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/timeless/chapter01.htm

1. The Language

The ProtoHungarians were at least bilingual. Some of them spoke a Finno-Ugrian type of language, others a West-Turkic (Thranian or Onogur) tongue and some others probably an Iranian-Mesopotamian type of language. Gradually a new, composite language evolved, based on the grammatical structure of the Finno–Ugrian component, a logical, simple, agglutinating tongue. It retained the simplest basic words of that language, with the Turkic-Onogur and the Mesopotamian-Iranian elements enriching its vocabulary.

The name the Hungarians apply to themselves, ‘Magyar", derives from the Ugrian "Mansi– or "Magy–" with the addition of the Turkic "-eri." forming "Megyeri" – "Magyen." – "Magyar", which became the name of the largest tribe Both particles mean "men". The name given to them by the western historians, ‘Hungarian" (Latin: "Hungarus"), is a variation of the name "Hun-Ogur" – "Onogur" – "Hungur" used since the fifth century by foreign chroniclers, a reminder of their association with TurkicOnogur-Hun peoples.

2. Racial composition

Anthropometric measurements carried out on skeletons from the settlement period indicate a racially composite people. The main components were the Turanoid (Turkic-Onogur), the East–Baltic (Finno-Ugrian), the Uralian or Ugrian (the eastern branch of the Finno-Ugrian) with substantial components of Caucasian, Anatolian, Nordoid, Dinarian, Mediterranean and Alpine racial types.

3. Ethnogenesis

This linguistically and racially composite nation has obviously evolved from the successive amalgamations of clans, tribes and groups of various racial and geographical origins. The ProtoHungarian people were made up of some Nordic tribes of Ugrian origin who came from the Volga–Kama-Ural region and of a (probably larger) eastern component of Turkic–Onogur (Turanian) people who came from the Caspian region. These Turkic elements included Scythian, Hunnic and Avar types as well and later some Khazars. To these came the third, southern segment, the Caucasian (Sabir, Alanian) and Iranian-Mesopotamian elements.

It has been proven that all these races, cultures and languages contributed to the formation of the Magyar or Hungarian people and from their amalgamations arose during the first centuries of the Christian era a remarkably colorful, complex and viable nation, not unlike today’s evolving nations, the Australians or the Americans. The latent dynamism of this young People urged them to move on in search of a safer, more suitable homeland. These migrations lasted many centuries


Anyway,it is not me who started talking about genes, but your Ilyrian-Slavic brother. I identify with Árpádian Magyars, (and off course, if we go by our national consciousness and legends,Turul, White Stag, Csaba, then the Huns too) that conquered the Carpathian Basin, and not Slavs or Germans that we have assimilated. It might be different for you, but that is your problem, not mine.


I myself do not speak of a "Pure Magyar master race", and I understand that we are a genetic mixture, I have no problem accepting half Hungarians, quarter Hungarians, or even 0% Hungarians like Petőfi :) But there is a limit off course, blacks like Fekete Pákó or his children for example will never be Hungarian. But how can you claim to be Hungarian while also claiming to be a Slav? Sounds like someone has spent reading too much pan-Slavic propaganda.


It is our identity what is important, the Hungarian nation has undergone many genetic shifts over the years, it has been absorbed into empires, but then reemerged, thanks to the very strong national identity, which people have always attempted to weaken, because once our national identity is destroyed, and we just identify as slavs or swamp fishermen, then that is the end of us.
And that is what you are trying to do now, to take away our proud Hun-Scythian national consciousnesses and replace it with one which was written on Slavorum.com or maybe Népszabadság.

What next, you will go into Székelyföld and tell them they are Romanians in denial?

[Lena]

A non-people like the tót is not a good comparison.
...

But how can you claim to be Hungarian while also claiming to be a Slav? Sounds like someone has spent reading too much pan-Slavic propaganda.



1/ Stop calling others 'non-people', Slavs in particularly.
2/ Sure he can claim what ever he wants! It's where his loyalty goes, not genetic structure; I am somewhat Hungarian, but my absolute loyalty goes to my motherland Serbia, while naturally I like Hungary and non of the Serbs deny me such a right. What's so confusing?!

[Szegedist]

1/ Stop calling others 'non-people', Slavs in particularly.
2/ Sure he can claim what ever he wants! It's where his loyalty goes, not genetic structure; I am somewhat Hungarian, but my absolute loyalty goes to my motherland Serbia, while naturally I like Hungary and non of the Serbs deny me such a right. What's so confusing?!

1) I was talking about so called "Slovaks".

2) Apples and oranges. If you started to identify as Ilyrian,Thracian, Celtic ( or whatever lived in the area before Serbs} and not Serbian, then that would be more comparable to what he is trying to do.


Genetically, Serbs are barely Slavs, but I see nobody questions your Slavichood, or says you are anything other than Slavs. Understand?

[Twistedmind]

Genetically, Serbs are barely Slavs, but I see nobody questions your Slavichood, or says you are anything other than Slavs. Understand?

No, gennetically Serbs are 30% Slavs. Highest among Southern Slavs. But Gennetics have not much to do with met-ethicity acctually. Just leave your mouth of Serbs, and other Slavs. Nobody claimed you were Slavs. If you want to be Jomon people, it is ok by me. Just stop speaking about gennetics, since obviously you dont know much about it.

[Géza]

Except that costume is not average.

Are you an ethnographist? Or? That costum is very typical, very average, a very good choice for the many others.



A non-people like the tót is not a good comparison.

Slovaks are a modern nation since the 19th, emerged from many different Slavic ethnic groups, but they are a people, an ethnic group.


Yes, especially if you are a labanc.

I am not German. This is typical among us to call one "foreign" when someone lack of valid argument. I don't ask you are you a Kazak...



No, it is you, who is trying to force a Slavic identity on us, you are the one serving the agenda of the globalists. Still upset that SzDSz is finished, eh?

SzDSz was a party of the Hungarian liberals with many jewish member. I am not jewish. Did you say Globalists? You serve the Globalist's agenda whose want more and more brotherwar among us.




Do Serbs identify with the Ilyrians? Do the French identity with the Gauls? So why should we be any less of a national identity, and be "Slavs"?
Why don't you go and in Slovakia then and live with your Slavic brothers, maybe learn Slovak while you are at it, and be a proud Slav? :rolleyes:

The Croats identified ownselvez with the Illyrians in the 19th like as the French with the Gauls. Learn more History. I am a Hungarian and I proud the Finno-Ugric, the Turkish and the Slavic root of us. You cannot spend a day without Slavic words. I see you have not any valid argumant only insult me.




Anyway,it is not me who started talking about genes, but your Ilyrian-Slavic brother. I identify with Árpádian Magyars, (and off course, if we go by our national consciousness and legends,Turul, White Stag, Csaba, then the Huns too) that conquered the Carpathian Basin, and not Slavs or Germans that we have assimilated. It might be different for you, but that is your problem, not mine.


The Conqueror Ancient Hungarians was a mixed people and a few people. They organize the Carpathian-Basin to an united kingdom. They melted with the local people. Hence you simply lie and live in a dream when you imagine youselfs as Ancient Hungarian.

This historical misbelief is a copypast of the German nationalism from the 19th. They believed all they descended from the heroic Scandinavian conquerors like as we believed in the pat we descended from the Ancient Hungarians. But the Scandinavians only a group among Germans' ancestors, the Ancient Hungarians are only one group among our ancestors.


I myself do not speak of a "Pure Magyar master race", and I understand that we are a genetic mixture, I have no problem accepting half Hungarians, quarter Hungarians, or even 0% Hungarians like Petőfi :) But there is a limit off course, blacks like Fekete Pákó or his children for example will never be Hungarian. But how can you claim to be Hungarian while also claiming to be a Slav? Sounds like someone has spent reading too much pan-Slavic propaganda.


Nobody spoke about Pan-Slavic propaganda. I am absolutely against the Pan-Slavism. Hence I use to speak about the South-Slavs' Balkanic ancestry. I don't call ownselvez Slav. I showed we descended mostly the Slavs and the Balkanics (as South-Slavs).



It is our identity what is important, the Hungarian nation has undergone many genetic shifts over the years, it has been absorbed into empires, but then reemerged, thanks to the very strong national identity, which people have always attempted to weaken, because once our national identity is destroyed, and we just identify as slavs or swamp fishermen, then that is the end of us.
And that is what you are trying to do now, to take away our proud Hun-Scythian national consciousnesses and replace it with one which was written on Slavorum.com or maybe Népszabadság.

Originally all the European was swamp fishermen or hunter-gatherer. Our Finno-Ugric ancestors were surely hunter-gatherers 2kya. It doesn't connect absolutely to our present or to our future. Your train of thought base on the 19th century cogitation when everybody want a glorious ancestor group, preferably more and more older and nearer to the early civilizations. Hence the German nationalist invented the legend of the tall blond blue-eyed Aryans who create The Civilization. Hence our ancestors wanted force the Turkish root. Hence nowadays someone forces the Sumerian root. It is absolutely unimportant who has the oldest culture who are the oldest people. It doesn't depend with the power and the ability to do the future. America is a young nation and they have been nothing to do with their ancestry till nowadays. In another aspect of view every human ethnic group is very old. The ethnic group didn't came from the soil. All human groups were somewhere till the civilization and the written history have found them.




What next, you will go into Székelyföld and tell them they are Romanians in denial?

Indeed. The East-Hungarians have Balkanic Romance admixture. You should go Erdély (nowadays Romania) and see the many of us with typical Romanian surnames and see the many of Romans with typical Hungarian surname.

Nowhere a sharp border between ethnic groups nowadays, especially in the Carpathian-Basin.


No, gennetically Serbs are 30% Slavs. Highest among Southern Slavs. But Gennetics have not much to do with met-ethicity acctually. Just leave your mouth of Serbs, and other Slavs. Nobody claimed you were Slavs. If you want to be Jomon people, it is ok by me. Just stop speaking about gennetics, since obviously you dont know much about it.

Ethnicity depend on the culture and the gennetics too. The Meta-Ethnicity is not a valid matter. Pan-Germanism, Pan-Slavism, Pan-Turanism all they things have been created by the political agenda of then powers in the 19th.



There is lot of theories about it. Some claim it came from Poland. Here is its distribution. :)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png/800px-HaplogroupI2.png


The I2 is not Slavic HG. It is highest in the Dinarian Alps. Hence may connect closely to the local ones. The Slavs have carried the R1a1a to the South.

[Twistedmind]

The I2 is not Slavic HG. It is highest in the Dinarian Alps. Hence may connect closely to the local ones. The Slavs have carried the R1a1a to the South.
Geza, it is for sure Slavic. Because it is characteristic for Slavs today. I jsut said there are lot of theories about its origin. :) I think there is lot of that mentioned on this forum. :) And that was my point. I was not saying it is Slavic. I am not really sure what to think about it.

[Corvus]

Geza, it is for sure Slavic. Because it is characteristic for Slavs today. I jsut said there are lot of theories about its origin. :) I think there is lot of that mentioned on this forum. :) And that was my point. I was not saying it is Slavic. I am not really sure what to think about it.

We have to bear in mind that whole Central Europe was Slavic territory before Bavarians from the West and Magyars from the East conquered it.
In Hungary the situation is similar to Austria. Some acknowledge the Slavic heritage, many don`t.

Slavic influence even proliferated again during the Austrian Hungarian empire due to huge migration towards industrial centers.

[Géza]

Geza, it is for sure Slavic. Because it is characteristic for Slavs today. I jsut said there are lot of theories about its origin. :) I think there is lot of that mentioned on this forum. :) And that was my point. I was not saying it is Slavic. I am not really sure what to think about it.

South-Slavs, Balcanics have it nowadays. The Ancient Slavs came from nowadays SE-Poland and NW-Ukraine. They have mostly R1a1a nowadays too.

I know many theory exists about people's ancestry. What I have written it the most serried for me, not necessary the One Holy Truth. :)

[Szegedist]

You serve the Globalist's agenda whose want more and more brotherwar among us.
Please not another idiot "White nationalist" Hungarian. You think against Trianon = globalist agenda and brotherwar? And who are our brothers, Serbs, Romanians? Please dont be ridiculous.



I am a Hungarian and I proud the Finno-Ugric, the Turkish and the Slavic root of us. You cannot spend a day without Slavic words. I see you have not any valid argumant only insult me.

So you are a very confused person that lacks an identity?



The Conqueror Ancient Hungarians was a mixed people and a few people. They organize the Carpathian-Basin to an united kingdom. They melted with the local people. Hence you simply lie and live in a dream when you imagine youselfs as Ancient Hungarian.
So you believe we have nothing to do with Árpád and we can't claim him as our national figure because we are "not true Hungarains"??


This historical misbelief is a copypast of the German nationalism from the 19th. They believed all they descended from the heroic Scandinavian conquerors like as we believed in the pat we descended from the Ancient Hungarians. But the Scandinavians only a group among Germans' ancestors, the Ancient Hungarians are only one group among our ancestors.

Quite the opposite, this identity was with us for a long time, only suppressed by Habsburgs, but then it reemerged again.




I showed we descended mostly the Slavs and the Balkanics (as South-Slavs).

Do you identify as a Hungarian or as a South Slav?




Indeed. The East-Hungarians have Balkanic Romance admixture. You should go Erdély (nowadays Romania) and see the many of us with typical Romanian surnames and see the many of Romans with typical Hungarian surname.
Your point being? Do you or do you not see Transylvanian Hungarians as Hungarians, or are they Romanians in your eyes?

[Szegedist]

Géza, let me ask you this, do you think the statue of Árpád on Hősök tere should be removed, and replaced with Svatopluk I of "Great" Moravia, since we are just Slavs and the evil Magyar barbarians imposed their language on us? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Arrow Cross]

Honestly, national identity is a complex concept drawing from much more than pure genetics. It is especially so with us, at the crossroads of Europe. While we undoubtedly assimilated the people living here before our arrival (some related to us, like the Székelys, some aren't), and also most of the immigrants since then, that doesn't eliminate, or extinguish our eastern heritage. If it would, there would be no Hungary today. But our national character was such that it endured, despite all odds, and that in itself is something to be proud of, for a people practically alone in the heart of the continent.

So instead of playing around with percentages, let us ask ourselves: who is it we can call our brothers? We have ties everywhere; the Germanic West, the Slavic South, the Turkic East, both culturally and genetically, to one extent or another. It is my opinion that history has already given us the answer. Whenever our neighbours extended their hands, with the notable exceptions of Poland and Croatia, they grabbed for our millenial lands. Now, the Turkic nations in the East, those we share our ancient roots with, are also extending their hand, because they need reliable partners in a volatile XXIst Century Europe.

It is time for us - in fact -, it is our destiny to shake that hand.

[Lena]

1) I was talking about so called "Slovaks".
Oh, really? Why don't you go one more time over small list of last names in Hungary I posted here, K?


2) Apples and oranges. If you started to identify as Ilyrian,Thracian, Celtic ( or whatever lived in the area before Serbs} and not Serbian, then that would be more comparable to what he is trying to do.
It's your perception and wrong one. Slavs are very much around, live and well :wink


Genetically, Serbs are barely Slavs, but I see nobody questions your Slavichood, or says you are anything other than Slavs. Understand?

I won't even go over there, this topic is not meant to discuss Serbdom & Slavichood lol! At the same time, what you said above supports Geza's posting and point of view :) .

[Géza]

Please not another idiot "White nationalist" Hungarian. You think against Trianon = globalist agenda and brotherwar? And who are our brothers, Serbs, Romanians? Please dont be ridiculous.

Trianon has been made by England's, France's and USA's elit to destabilize the united Germany's backyard with ethnic conflicts. This was the reason why they didn't create clear national states with ethnic borders. The nawadays Globalists just use the old good way. Hence they divide us. Serbs, Slovaks, Romanians are our brother in point of culture, common history and gennetics.




So you are a very confused person that lacks an identity?

I am Hungarian. You are an other Hungarian without any valid arguments. Hence you simply insult me.




So you believe we have nothing to do with Árpád and we can't claim him as our national figure because we are "not true Hungarains"??

Nobody said it. Árpád and their Ancient Hungarians were a one group of our ancestors. And they were one group of the ancestors of Slovaks, Romanians and Serbs too.




Quite the opposite, this identity was with us for a long time, only suppressed by Habsburgs, but then it reemerged again.


The Hungarian Conquest and Árpád have been saved in the written sources. Our folklore only reserve the character of Szent László (Holy Ladislaus). Manycontemporary old Hungarian name only is "reinvented" from the written sources like as Attila, Árpád, Zoltán or my name: Géza. But this is just similar to the other pepoel's past-exploring in the 19th.





Do you identify as a Hungarian or as a South Slav?

Nobody spoke about me I would be South-Slav or Balkanics. I have written many times I am Hungarian. You simply insult me.





Your point being? Do you or do you not see Transylvanian Hungarians as Hungarians, or are they Romanians in your eyes?

Both of Hungarians and Romanians in Erdély (nowadays Romania) are descendant of Hungarians, Slavs and Balkanic Romance people. Only the language is the different. Some kinds of folk music and costume of them are very similar. Hungarian dialects are full of Romanian words there. The national identity there is rather a label than a real difference. Hunagarians in Dunántúl (West-Hungary) are closer to Slovaks, Germans and Croatians, Hungarians in Erdély are closer to Romanians, Hungarians in SW-Ukraine are closer to Ruthens.

[Szegedist]

Oh, really? Why don't you go one more time over small list of last names in Hungary I posted here, K?
What about them? Petőfi might have had Slavic origins, but his heart and soul was Hungarian, and he did the right thing accepting this fact, unlike many of the so called "Slovaks".



I won't even go over there, this topic is not meant to discuss Serbdom & Slavichood lol! At the same time, what you said above supports Geza's posting and point of view :) .
You are right, this topic is about proving the Slavichood of Hungarians. :rolleyes:



Anyway, there is obviously a misunderstanding, I never talked about pure Magyar genetics and I very much understand accept the fact that we mixed with various peoples.

Think of the Hungarian identity as very strong glue, and the Hungarians as they traveled across Eurasia, various peoples were glued onto us. Or you can think of it as a snowball, first starting out small, then rolling down a snowy hill, picking up others and becoming bigger and bigger.

However, the Magyar "glue" remained, and everything else stuck onto it, so they were very much part of the Hungarian nation. This core Hungarian identity is still very much intact, and it is what helped the country survive over the course of history, and this is why people are so furiously trying to destroy the identity.

[Szegedist]

Trianon has been made by England's, France's and USA's elit to destabilize the united Germany's backyard with ethnic conflicts. This was the reason why they didn't create clear national states with ethnic borders. The nawadays Globalists just use the old good way. Hence they divide us. Serbs, Slovaks, Romanians are our brother in point of culture, common history and gennetics.




To claim that Romanian, Slovakia, Serbia are innocent of Trianon is just ridiculous. It was an opportunity our treacherous and opportunist neigbours have been waiting for a long time, and they have their own share of responsibility.
So if I understand correctly, you are against irredentism/justice, so we dont upset our Slovak and Romanian "brothers"???

[Géza]

Honestly, national identity is a complex concept drawing from much more than pure genetics. It is especially so with us, at the crossroads of Europe. While we undoubtedly assimilated the people living here before our arrival (some related to us, like the Székelys, some aren't), and also most of the immigrants since then, that doesn't eliminate, or extinguish our eastern heritage. If it would, there would be no Hungary today. But our national character was such that it endured, despite all odds, and that in itself is something to be proud of, for a people practically alone in the heart of the continent.

So instead of playing around with percentages, let us ask ourselves: who is it we can call our brothers? We have ties everywhere; the Germanic West, the Slavic South, the Turkic East, both culturally and genetically, to one extent or another. It is my opinion that history has already given us the answer. Whenever our neighbours extended their hands, with the notable exceptions of Poland and Croatia, they grabbed for our millenial lands.

Our old Kingdom was not a national states. Many different ethnic group have lived here. Our neighbours, our brothers didn't steal our lands, because many part of them didn't live any Hungarian. And the elit's of the Western powers made these lunatic borders to create national states with significant minority. Thus they have be able to divide us. Now the Globalist use these making to divide us and wipe us one by one forever.



Now, the Turkic nations in the East, those we share our ancient roots with, are also extending their hand, because they need reliable partners in a volatile XXIst Century Europe.

It is time for us - in fact -, it is our destiny to shake that hand.


Yeah, they want more beach-head to Europe. Just ask the Russians about nowadays Moscow.

[Lena]

Now, the Turkic nations in the East, those we share our ancient roots with, are also extending their hand, because they need reliable partners in a volatile XXIst Century Europe.

It is time for us - in fact -, it is our destiny to shake that hand.

After noticing your rep points to certain poster here, I wanted to call your name and ask you to speak loudly about topic it self, now I know everything I wanted to. Luckily enough, overwhelming majority of Hungarians would disagree with you.

[Szegedist]

After noticing your rep points to certain poster here, I wanted to call your name and ask you to speak loudly about topic it self, now I know everything I wanted to. Luckily enough, overwhelming majority of Hungarians would disagree with you.
And what is your problem? Is Arrow Cross not Slavic enough for you? Or maybe he doesn't believe so called "Vojvodina" should belong to Serbia?

Stormfront is a better place for you to spread your white unity propaganda.

[Arrow Cross]

This historical misbelief is a copypast of the German nationalism from the 19th. They believed all they descended from the heroic Scandinavian conquerors like as we believed in the pat we descended from the Ancient Hungarians. But the Scandinavians only a group among Germans' ancestors, the Ancient Hungarians are only one group among our ancestors.

While the XIXth Century was indeed a period of fancy national romanticism, let us not forget that for us, it meant swallowing the Finno-Ugric theory, brought to us by zhe Kaiser. Many early medieval sources, especially from Byzantium (and the German territories that suffered most) testify to the reality of our conquering ancestors. The fact that they only lived on in our folk lore, and not in written sources is due to the near-complete illiteracy of the times, the absence of monasteries and the efforts of Stephen I during our Christianization. Everything connecting to the pagan past, even our runic script was marked for eradication, and we've only recently begun to rediscover them.

You are correct, of course, in that we must not fall into the trappings of many of our neighbours. We need to keep to historical facts, but to Tenth Century Europe, Árpád and his mighty armies were a horrible reality.

Their horror, of course, is our glorious past, which should form the core of our identity, regardless of how friendly and how similar we are to our neighbours. And even today, if you take a stroll in the Alföld, you might be surprised to see how many people resemble the slit-eyed horse archer overlords who struck fear into the heart of Europe a thousand years ago. ;)

[Géza]

What about them? Petőfi might have had Slavic origins, but his heart and soul was Hungarian, and he did the right thing accepting this fact, unlike many of the so called "Slovaks".


Petőfi was a great poet and a product of the 19th. We must see them in the aspect of view of the 19th.




Think of the Hungarian identity as very strong glue, and the Hungarians as they traveled across Eurasia, various peoples were glued onto us. Or you can think of it as a snowball, first starting out small, then rolling down a snowy hill, picking up others and becoming bigger and bigger.

No, we didn't across Eurasia. Our people has emerged in the Pontic Steppe from many different tribe by an alliance we call "Vérszerződés" (Treaty of Blood).


However, the Magyar "glue" remained, and everything else stuck onto it, so they were very much part of the Hungarian nation. This core Hungarian identity is still very much intact, and it is what helped the country survive over the course of history, and this is why people are so furiously trying to destroy the identity.

Our country is not survived by ownself in the last half-thousend years. The other European peoples recounqered this land from the Ottoman Turks. Another European peoples have settled that massacred Wasteland. Our identity is made strongly by the spirit of age of the 19th. What have made the French, the British, the Italian and the united German identity too. We existed in the 18th too, but we were a decayed people of a multinational Empire. Our national identity was a good weapon in the hand of our so mixed elit against the Habsburg Court.


To claim that Romanian, Slovakia, Serbia are innocent of Trianon is just ridiculous. It was an opportunity our treacherous and opportunist neigbours have been waiting for a long time, and they have their own share of responsibility.
So if I understand correctly, you are against irredentism/justice, so we dont upset our Slovak and Romanian "brothers"???

The were innocent really. Why did they refuse the offer of national state and choose the old multiethnical Habsburg Empire? We was the part of the Empire, all they compomise and clear signal to our nationalism were based on the weakness of the Empire.

Irredentism is not equal with Justice. Our old kingdom was not a national state. The justice would be ethnic borders.

[Arrow Cross]

After noticing your rep points to certain poster here, I wanted to call your name and ask you to speak loudly about topic it self, now I know everything I wanted to. Luckily enough, overwhelming majority of Hungarians would disagree with you.

Not necessarily! The so-called "Eastern Opening" programme of Jobbik, the current backbone of the (true) Hungarian Right, is built upon exactly such a sentiment. As for the mainstream conservatards... well, they want to be friends with the whole world anyway!

I'm sorry, sister, but we all have to look out for our national interests here.

[Szegedist]

No, we didn't across Eurasia. Our people has emerged in the Pontic Steppe from many different tribe by an alliance we call "Vérszerződés" (Treaty of Blood)..
Where is the Pontic step, in Africa?




Our country is not survived by ownself in the last half-thousend years. The other European peoples recounqered this land from the Ottoman Turks. Another European peoples have settled that massacred Wasteland. .
Are we here or not?





Irredentism is not equal with Justice. Our old kingdom was not a national state. The justice would be ethnic borders.
Ethnic borders? You say we are just like our neigbours, but now you talk about ethnic borders? You say there is no such thing as a Hungarian(:rolleyes:),, only a Magyarized Slav, Romanian, German so why can't we annexed our Slavic cousins?

[Arrow Cross]

Our old Kingdom was not a national states. Many different ethnic group have lived here. Our neighbours, our brothers didn't steal our lands, because many part of them didn't live any Hungarian. And the elit's of the Western powers made these lunatic borders to create national states with significant minority. Thus they have be able to divide us. Now the Globalist use these making to divide us and wipe us one by one forever.
Indeed. And under our guidance, these different ethnic groups managed to coexist surprisingly well for a millenium in a common, powerful kingdom. The Carpathian Basin is one single geo-political entity, and the economic hardships for all of us in the post-WWI era testified to just how painful this forced separation has been. Sooner or later, we must undo it for the good of all the nations in this land. Otherwise, we remain an extension of the Balkans, fragmented and exploited by our mortal enemies.


Yeah, they want more beach-head to Europe. Just ask the Russians about nowadays Moscow.
I'd rather not go to Moscow for any sort of answers regarding our national orientation, thank you very much.

[Lena]

And what is your problem? Is Arrow Cross not Slavic enough for you? Or maybe he doesn't believe so called "Vojvodina" should belong to Serbia?

Why are you so upset? :) I've no prob at all, it is you who's tripping over your own words all the time.


Stormfront is a better place for you to spread your white unity propaganda.

Hehehehe! Why? You've a VIP seats there and wanna share?

[Szegedist]

As for the mainstream conservatards... well, they want to be friends with the whole world anyway!


Partially correct, Fidesz has also 'borrowed' many ideas from Jobbik's Eastern Opening.

[Lena]

I'm sorry, sister, but we all have to look out for our national interests here.

I seriously suspect Hungarian interests to be in East with Turks (Turkic is more linguistic terminology). You've inner problems and ongoing issues you must address first, before being able to 'chose' whose hand you will shake or not.

:)

[Géza]

While the XIXth Century was indeed a period of fancy national romanticism, let us not forget that for us, it meant swallowing the Finno-Ugric theory, brought to us by zhe Kaiser.

Always use to appear it the Habsburgs forced and invented the Finno-Ugoric theory. Nobody spoke about the ancestry of Vámbéry Ármin and their agenda to make accept by Hungarians the millions of Asian immigrants from Slavic lands...



Many early medieval sources, especially from Byzantium (and the German territories that suffered most) testify to the reality of our conquering ancestors. The fact that they only lived on in our folk lore, and not in written sources is due to the near-complete illiteracy of the times, the absence of monasteries and the efforts of Stephen I during our Christianization. Everything connecting to the pagan past, even our runic script was marked for eradication, and we've only recently begun to rediscover them.

The Byzantine literature have a special attribution the archaism. They used the Ancient Attic Greek to write side by side they spoke Medieval Greek. They use name of archaic, pervious people for later ones. That was the reason why they called me Turks, Scythian or others. The western sources used the "Hungarian" word what was a distorted version of On Ogur (means Ten Arrow, Ten Tribe). The German word "Ungarn" show best this. Indeed, Szent István (Saint Stephen the I) persecuted the old Pagan culture contrast with the Scandinavian lands where they have written their pagan heritage. But the real folk lore go the round orally. Our ancestors simply forget the past side by side they melted with the local ones, thus created a new people with new culture. The past was pointless in their lives.


You are correct, of course, in that we must not fall into the trappings of many of our neighbours. We need to keep to historical facts, but to Tenth Century Europe, Árpád and his mighty armies were a horrible reality.

Indeed, they were epic badass like as the Ancient Germans or the Romans. I am absolutely pride them. But they are one of our ancestors, like as the epic tall blond people were one the ancestors of the Bavarians f.e.


Their horror, of course, is our glorious past, which should form the core of our identity, regardless of how friendly and how similar we are to our neighbours. And even today, if you take a stroll in the Alföld, you might be surprised to see how many people resemble the slit-eyed horse archer overlords who struck fear into the heart of Europe a thousand years ago. ;)

Every contemporary European nation have built on the legend of a mighty group. But the age of the conquerors is pass away and now all we Europeans including we Hungarians are becoming the subjects. Those people in the Alföld (Hungarian Great Plain) is the descendants of several Turkic people. Some of them came with Árpád, some of them earlier or later. The Ancient Hungarian Conquerors were very mixed, not slit-eyed short people. The early Avars were pure Far-Eastern Asians whose were one group of our ancestors.

[Arrow Cross]

Partially correct, Fidesz has also 'borrowed' many ideas from Jobbik's Eastern Opening.

Ah yes, our dear government is an expert at trying to appease the increasingly dissatisfied right-thinking masses with taking over previously declined proposals of "extremists" and presenting them as their own.

[Szegedist]

I seriously suspect Hungarian interests to be in East with Turks (Turkic is more linguistic terminology). You've inner problems and ongoing issues you must address first, before being able to 'chose' whose hand you will shake or not.

:)

Lena, please worry about Serbian situation and foreign policy instead. You are in a worse situation than ours (and I am not saying this in a bad way).
Serbia itself has ties with some muslim countreis:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/business-article.php?yyyy=2013&mm=01&dd=09&nav_id=84068

Or are you one of those pro EU pro Nato Serbs?

The Eastern Opening is necessary if we try to escape EU influence. We need markets, trade partners, etc, and the EU would most likely put sanctions on us if we ever get a pro Hungarian goverment.

[Géza]

Where is the Pontic step, in Africa?


Google is your friend.





Are we here or not?


Who is the "we" that is the question. We are not the same people before the Ottoman Conquer ot before Árpád's conquer. They were, we are.



Ethnic borders? You say we are just like our neigbours, but now you talk about ethnic borders? You say there is no such thing as a Hungarian(:rolleyes:),, only a Magyarized Slav, Romanian, German so why can't we annexed our Slavic cousins?

I spoke about the aspect of view of the first half of the 20th.


Indeed. And under our guidance, these different ethnic groups managed to coexist surprisingly well for a millenium in a common, powerful kingdom. The Carpathian Basin is one single geo-political entity, and the economic hardships for all of us in the post-WWI era testified to just how painful this forced separation has been. Sooner or later, we must undo it for the good of all the nations in this land. Otherwise, we remain an extension of the Balkans, fragmented and exploited by our mortal enemies.

This Carpathian Basin have not been a national state. This is a geo-political entitiy, indeed, but not the land of a single nation or a "Herrenvolk".




I'd rather not go to Moscow for any sort of answers regarding our national orientation, thank you very much.

It would be enough to read about the Russian ethnic problems or ask about it the Russian member f.e.

[Arrow Cross]

I seriously suspect Hungarian interests to be in East with Turks (Turkic is more linguistic terminology). You've inner problems and ongoing issues you must address first, before being able to 'chose' whose hand you will shake or not.

:)

Of course, this here is little more than a theoretic pondering by individuals. However, "our" star is on the rise, so these questions may very well become part of mainstream politics in a decade or two.

[Szegedist]

Google is your friend.

I was being sarcastic..


Who is the "we" that is the question. We are not the same people before the Ottoman Conquer ot before Árpád's conquer. They were, we are.
We, as in Hungarians. We might have shifted genetically, but we are still Hungarians, the identity, culture, language was passed on.

[Géza]

Lena, please worry about Serbian situation and foreign policy instead. You are in a worse situation than ours (and I am not saying this in a bad way).
Serbia itself has ties with some muslim countreis:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/business-article.php?yyyy=2013&mm=01&dd=09&nav_id=84068

Or are you one of those pro EU pro Nato Serbs?

The Eastern Opening is necessary if we try to escape EU influence. We need markets, trade partners, etc, and the EU would most likely put sanctions on us if we ever get a pro Hungarian goverment.

We should not escape from the EU rather we should built an own EU controlled by Europeans, not the Globalist hanchmen. Eastern-Opening of the Jobbik is a very wide category. Russia is the part of the East and Central-Asia and China too. Putin and their circle want transmute Russia to an Eurasian union what would be a melt of many people like the immigrantful contemporary Europa.

I don't think the Russian speaking African immirgant would better the Englis speaking one.

[Géza]

I was being sarcastic..


We, as in Hungarians. We might have shifted genetically, but we are still Hungarians, the identity, culture, language was passed on.

In this way Fekete Pákó's (an Afro-Hungarian singer) child and many others on the street of Budapest are genetically-shifted Hungarian, still Hungarian, because the identity, culture, language are passing on. :picard1:

[Szegedist]

We should not escape from the EU rather we should built an own EU controlled by Europeans, not the Globalist hanchmen.
Dream on... you except us to wait while other European countries grow a pair of balls?



Eastern-Opening of the Jobbik is a very wide category. Russia is the part of the East and Central-Asia and China too. Putin and their circle want transmute Russia to an Eurasian union what would be a melt of many people like the immigrantful contemporary Europa.
Euroasian union is still a dream, and mainly an economic thing, not an immigration or controlling monster than the EU. But I would certainly not trust the Russians.

[Szegedist]

In this way Fekete Pákó's (an Afro-Hungarian singer) child and many others on the street of Budapest are genetically-shifted Hungarian, still Hungarian, because the identity, culture, language are passing on. :picard1:

Africans are not, and will never be Hungarians, mainly due to their subhumanity. Like I said before, there are exceptions.

The same cannot be said for the nations of the Carpathian Basin(apart from Gypsies, Jews and other elements), and Magyarization is an acceptable method for them.

[Arrow Cross]

This Carpathian Basin have not been a national state. This is a geo-political entitiy, indeed, but not the land of a single nation or a "Herrenvolk".

We haven't been a single nation, yes, but we, Hungarians were undoubtedly the leading nation in the Kingdom of Hungary. This is the shade of difference you need to appreciate. We were the core, and the various other ethnicities the branches, as none of them ever took over our central role in the political, social, economic and spiritual leadership of this region, our common home, the Carpathian Basin.

The same is the case with our ethnicity. We've been a mix for centuries, but we've always maintained our distinctly Hungarian identity. So while genetically, we might be somewhat related to the various Slavic and Germanic rulers you speak of, culturally, in our identity, we are and we only can be related to Árpád and his people.

It's a simple question of association.

[Szegedist]

It is debatable whether the Hungarian Kingdom was really as multiethnic as they make it out to be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary#900.E2.80.931910

A quick look at that, I see 66%, 70%, 80% Hungarian.


The population composition at the foundation of Hungary (895) depends on the size of the arriving Hungarian population and the size of the Slavic (and remains of Avar-Slavic) population at the time. One source mentions 200 000 Slavs and 400 000 Hungarians,[1] while other sources often don't give estimates for both, making comparison more difficult. The size of the Hungarian population around 895 is often estimated between 120 000 and 600 000,[2] with a number of estimates in the 400-600 000 range.[1][3][4] Other sources only mention a fighting force of 25 000 Magyar warriors used in the attack,[5][6] while declining to estimate the total population including women and children and warriors not participating in the invasion. In the historical demographics the largest earlier shock was the Mongol Invasion of Hungary, several plagues also took a toll on the country's population. According to the demographers, about 80 percent of the population was made up of Hungarians before the Battle of Mohács, however the Hungarian ethnic group became a minority in its own country after the Rákóczi's War for Independence. Major territorial changes made Hungary ethnically homogeneous after World War I. Nowadays, more than nine-tenths of the population is ethnically Hungarian and speaks Hungarian as the mother tongue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary#Population

[Arrow Cross]

Indeed. The Ottoman Wars did a horrible damage on the mainly Magyar inhabitants of the plains and lowlands, where most of the continuous warfare and raids were being held. This greatly shifted ethnic compositions and the Habsburgs were unhesitant to import serfs from the neighbourhood en masse on relatively lucrative terms. They didn't care who pulled the plough - and sadly enough, the same can be said of our often irresponsible and self-serving nobility.

[mrkovats]

Okay as we know there are a lot of different branches of self-identity. I was born and grew up in Hungary and I can tell you that only a minority looks like a turanid (and this share is absoluatly not higher than amon any other east european populations) I and majority of normal Hungarians (not talking about the anti-European radicalists of jobbik party) so app. 90% identify themself simply as Hungarian and European and feel community with our Christian and white European neighbours like Polish people (yes there is Slovakia between us but only after 1920) and we are proud of our 1000 year old Western Christian Hungarian Kingdom funded by our first and Saint King St. Stephan. We have followed the European path of developement during the history (like the Magna Charta Libertatum by us it was called AranyBulla, King Matthias's Renaisance court, etc..) So tu sum uo we are a WHITE, EUROPEAN, WESTERN CHRISTIAN nation we have not too much common with turks, mongoloids, asians, etc...

As for genetics. There is three main examined fields of ancestry in connection with genome. The first is the paternal lineage, the y chromosome, secondly the maternal lineage, the mtdna and thridly the MOST IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT, the autosomal DNA.

According to the most accurate (the largest sampe Völgyi 2008) ydna tests the largest group is I then the R1a and R1b, these haplogroups are shared by the 80% os Hungarians with the 80% of other Europeans.

On maternal linegaes the same is the situation. mtDNA hg H is the largest group with 47%, then U with 17,5%, then J with 12%, so the typical European mtdna haplogroups.

By autosomal DNA-s as you could see on the linked map we stand closest to Austrians, Czechs, Croats, Slovenians etc... to our whte and european neighbours. And look at this research (http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2011-08-01.pdf) among modern day Hungarians Atlantic-European admixture is 83,1% (!) Baltic-Ural is 10,2%, Pakistani-Indus is above 3% Caucasian-Anatolain is above 2%. So this is a very typical white central and west European genome. Okay let's see these nubers by a typical turkic, turanid etc populations, by the Uzbeks of Central Asia. Among Uzbeks Atlantic-European admixture is only app. 5% the batic-ural admix is 11% while caucasian-anatolian almost 20% the Pakistani-Indus almost 24%, and the MONGOLIAN is almost 18% (wich admixture by Hungarians is missing)

So that's the short presentation of Hungarian's present-day ancestry. We are a proud successful WHITE EUROPEAN AND CHRISTAIN NATION :)

[7eleven]

Hungarians are of Germanic and Slavic stock, they dont descend from Huns at all.

[Szegedist]

mrkovats, nobody denies that Hungary is a Christian nation.

However things have changed, and we have to look after our own national interests. If you still want to give the West another chance, after all they did to us,especially in the 20th century, then you are simply a very naive person. We don't want to be part of the EU sinking ship, or the sinking "Western liberal demokratic world", that is not for us.

We have to make the best out of the situation we are in.
It is not our fault if other European countries are took weak, and have negligible patriotism.

I just hope our friends, the Poles and Croats, and some other nations save themselves, but what happens to France, Britain, etc is absolutely none of our concern,especially after 1920, and 1947, and I do not give a damn if they are our so called "Christian brothers".


The Western world is not our friend, that should be clear to anyone with at least a tiny bit of common sense. mrkovats, your Westerncentric views put you in the same category as MSzP, DK, you are in "good" company.http://mandiner.hu/attachment/0058/57932_gyurcsany_bajnai.jpeg

Doesn't the fact that the further right you go in Hungary, the more EU unfriendly people are give you a few hints?

http://www.hunmagyar.org/tor/origins.htm#2. Anti-Hungarian propaganda and bias

The Germans never forgave our settlement in the Carpathian Basin, that is clear if you read their opinions of us from older texts, but they realized that it would be difficult to kick us out after Pozsony 907, so they decided to use us, as their human shield.

You can keep deceiving yourself, but the cold hard truth is a bit different.



Hungarians are of Germanic and Slavic stock, they dont descend from Huns at all.
Thank you for your input American, can you even find Hungary or Europe on a map?

[mrkovats]

Szegedist,

We cannot deny the West, the West is ourselves we cannot deny and fight against our own civilization, that's not a naiv but a fool thought and very dangerous. About politics I belive and also know that the democratic parties (MSZP, FIDESZ, DK, EGYÜTT 2014, LMP, etc...) are much closer to Christianity and true Christian and European values. King St. Stephan I. made a decision and that was a decision wich funded one of the most important western and european kingdom in europe, the Christian and in the West/Europe deeply integrated Hungarian Kingdom, the democratic parties want to follow this progressive way while jobbik (wich is I think a national security threat) want to destroy our 1000 years old european and christian heritage deny ourselves, our western heritage and surrender to the despotic east and islam. That's an anti-Christian threat to Hungary and to whole Europe, it's much more embarrassing to be a jobbik (or far-natioanlist) supporter in Hungary than to be a supporter of any other democratic, pro-european parties. But this debate is about genetics not about politics.

[Szegedist]

Szegedist,
We cannot deny the West, the West is ourselves we cannot deny and fight against our own civilization,
Same goes for our Eastern heritage, we cannot deny this either. The fact is, we are a mixture of both, but the West today is a sick and materialist world, while the East is not so bad, at least not yet.



About politics I belive and also know that the democratic parties (MSZP, FIDESZ, DK, EGYÜTT 2014, LMP, etc...) are much closer to Christianity and true Christian and European values.
:picard1::picard2:
Are you kidding? MSzP, DK, LMP, EGYÜTT 2014 are closer to Judaism than Christianity, while Fidesz seems to be a mix.



the democratic parties want to follow this progressive way
:picard2:


while jobbik (wich is I think a national security threat) want to destroy our 1000 years old european and christian heritage deny ourselves, our western heritage and surrender to the despotic east and islam. That's an anti-Christian threat to Hungary and to whole Europe, it's much more embarrassing to be a jobbik (or far-natioanlist) supporter in Hungary than to be a supporter of any other democratic, pro-european parties.
I have no words at all for you, we are done talking . There are names for people like you, disgusting traitors.


You seriously think Jobbik, the only party working for Hungarian interests, is more dangerous than the postcommunist idiots?
The only thing you and your kind of scum will achieve is the death of Hungary. Szent István must be rolling in his grave right now if EGYÜTT 2014 and MSzP pass off as "his values".

[Arrow Cross]

Christianity has never faced a deadlier threat than the menace of liberal democrazy. Its teachings are diluted, its churches are empty, and the masses turn to the Mammon as their new god. Islam, on the other hand, is having a walk in the park, fully exploiting the civilizational weakness brought to Europe and Christianity by the Allied "victory" in 1945, and will soon be the dominant religion in the West.

If Hungary doesn't stray from that path very quickly, if it remains on board while the EU goes down, then indeed, the death of our nation is assured. We might have shared a common destiny with the West since 1000. But it'd be utterly irresponsible to follow it into its suicidal death march. We on the Right don't betray the West; the West has betrayed us and itself.

[mrkovats]

Szegedist,

At least we can see that you are very far from Christianity "There are names for people like you, disgusting traitors."
"The only thing you and your kind of scum" that's a good sign and I see that I am on the right side. There's no eastern heritage in the Hungarian Christian statehood. I think our King St. Stephan would be rolling in his grave because of that fact that 10% of the Hungarians were brainwashed by an anti-Christian and anti-European (also anti-Humanist) party the Jobbik party, he could see that Koppány's (for non-Hungarians he was a pagan leader who made a riot against Stephan and his plans to integrate Hungary into the West and convert to Christainism) ideas are getting more popular, this is a very sad thing and a sign that our Hungarian identity is in a crisis, the democratic parties and part of the country are working on to avoid the collapse and the reintegration of our country into Europe and that was Stephan's aim too he even banned to use the old and pagainc Hungarian runic writing system (rovásírás) and use of any other cultic things wich made the people to remember tha past beofre the Christian statehood. The jobbik would be handled by Stephan as Koppany was.

[Arrow Cross]

The jobbik would be handled by Stephan as Koppany was.

And these lying, thieving, weak-handed and weak-minded nobodies currently leading us to oblivion in the service of Brussels and Tel Aviv would decorate the roads hanging from the trees from Esztergom to Kalocsa. Ours is a particularly repulsive breed; at least the politicians of our neighbouring countries (e.g. "Slovakia") more or less stand up for their national interests and even manage to produce some economic growth (http://kuruc.info/galeriaN/2012/szeghaz1301_01.jpg) while we are plunged into an economic, political, social, spiritual, and indeed, moral free fall.

One way or another, this will end soon.

[Szegedist]

Szegedist,

At least we can see that you are very far from Christianity "There are names for people like you, disgusting traitors."
"The only thing you and your kind of scum" that's a good sign and I see that I am on the right side.
I am more Christian than you and your anti-Christain friends will ever be.




There's no eastern heritage in the Hungarian Christian statehood. I think our King St. Stephan would be rolling in his grave because of that fact that 10% of the Hungarians were brainwashed by an anti-Christian and anti-European (also anti-Humanist) party the Jobbik party, he could see that Koppány's (for non-Hungarians he was a pagan leader who made a riot against Stephan and his plans to integrate Hungary into the West and convert to Christainism)
Koppány was not fully Pagan, but also Orthodox Christian.



The fact is, that you are a little worm, a traitor, together with your Gyurcsány and Bajnai, trying to destroy Christianity in Hungary, trying to sell us to Brussels, to sell our identity. You would sell your own mother in the name of humanist and "European values". The sad thing is, you confuse European values with EU globalist liberal values.



The jobbik would be handled by Stephan as Koppany was.
And you would be handled the same way communist scum were handled by 1956 revolutionares or by Prónay Pal.

[mrkovats]

szegedist,

your behaviour and your jobbik party is the exact affronter and betrayaler of Christianity in Hungary don't you feel that you are hipcrite. Jobbik is a slave servant of the radicalist Christian persecutor Iranian islamic regime you should wake up and realize that jobbik is just a puppet jobbik is the Trojan horse of the islamism to conquer and eradicate the christian and western civilization. Not only your morality is far from Christianity my friend but also your ideas and thoughts you should change that. You are destroying Christianity in Hungary with e.g. Jobbik's anti-semitism (archbishop Peter Erdő said that anti-semitism is anti-christianism on the march of Life in 2012) you are the traitor of st. Stephan's progressive, christian and european way and th Christianity in Hungary. I hope this jobbik-insanity is just a temporary vogue and not a long-term thing than it would harm our homeland, our people and whole Europe very seriously I pray for you I hope you will change with your comrades too one day and I am not affraid of pronay because he was the enemy of the values what Jesus represented here on Earth and I am not affraid of the evil force even if his name is (was) Prónay. I finished talking about politics it's a genetic forum God bless

[Szegedist]

Szent István is not God, and his ideas is not the eternal law. Things change, Hungary back then was in a different situation.
How do you think Szent István converted the Pagans? With force off course. The Black Magyars (black refering to north) for example were tortured and blinded.
Also you forget that not all of Hungary is Catholic.

Do you also support gay marriage?
Jobbik is not the puppet, but you and your Globalist cronies are the puppets. Jobbik works for the interest of Hungarians, you do not.

Is this progressive to you?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6xCYjlOKMJM/TdPwaOZzgZI/AAAAAAAAAVI/snaJpV7POas/s1600/soul-devolution.jpeg


Your Atheistic and materialistic parties have very, very little to do with Christainity or civilisation. The Islamic republic of Iran has more common with real Christian values than you worms ever will.

I am sorry, but you are simply an idiot and blind fool, not to mention anti-Christian. Do you even know what the parties you support stand for? Gay marriage, materialism, separation of Church and state. DK for example wants to abolish all religious education in school, and wants to take away all goverment funding from Churches, and spread Atheistic materialist propaganda. You are a treacherous hook nosed scumbag, and a disgrace to Hungary. A traitor.

[mrkovats]

"thank you" and congrats you are very "intelligent". any valueable comments from anybody else in connection with genetics?

[Szegedist]

Forgive me if I insulted you, I see that you are 47, too much communist branwashing for you, although a bit young to be a Holocaust Survivor, just the right age to be a Gyurcsány fan.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zB5Pf4Oxy5A/UPQt0uZcGMI/AAAAAAAAVI4/xD_s4ZTk76A/s1600/idiots1.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EaTpZLbhATc/UPQuL28RTsI/AAAAAAAAVJc/5YlL1__pKto/s1600/idiots9.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FLz372fmIUY/UPQtW0gOw7I/AAAAAAAAVIg/863agXLnXSo/s1600/gyurcig.jpg
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/21293037.jpg
c4t--u1jg4I
GqX94CZykZo




Thankfully, you are a dying breed, Jobbik is the strongest party among the youth, especially among university students. In the university of Miskolc for example, 50% support Jobbik. In a few years time, MSzP, DK voterbase will shrink and slowly die off. :)


As for genetics, it is obvious that more Jews were assimilated than I previously thought.

[mrkovats]

I am happy that jobbik has such uneducated and primitive voters like you because you are thanks God just a minority even among youngsters although I put much more down to the table than any youth I learned much more I expreienced much more too and I am not communist I left Hungary because of communism when I was 18-19 yrs old. You know nothing about life you are too young and you are very uneducated you haven't lived in a totalitarian regime and I hope you won't and get wiser as you become older and every other of your jobbik youth comrades. I lived in a dictatorship in a far-left one there's no difference between farleft and farright totalitarianism I hope you wont expreience any of them. Learn, read more and try to educate yourself.

[Szegedist]

I am happy that jobbik has such uneducated and primitive voters like you
Actually this is not true, which part of most popular among university students did you not understand? It is MSzP that is popular among gypsies and other welfare leechers and the brainwashed elderly.



You know nothing about life you are too young and you are very uneducated you haven't lived in a totalitarian regime and I hope you won't and get wiser as you become older and every other of your jobbik youth comrades. I lived in a dictatorship in a far-left one there's no difference between farleft and farright totalitarianism I hope you wont expreience any of them. Learn, read more and try to educate yourself.
Can you read my mind? You know nothing about me, you don't know my age, my education, nothing. You are just full of stereotypes fed to you by mainstream politically correct media, "sorry" but not all of us hate Hungary as much as you do, so stay in Vienna, Austria is a much better place for a treacherous labanc ;)

[mrkovats]

LMP was in 2011 almos as popular as jobbik among university students 32% (jobbik) vs 29% (lmp) and I didin't talk about the other democratic parties (fidesz, mszp, dk, etc...) and in 2012 jobbik decreased thanks od very dramatically especially after Gyongyosi MP's antisemitic statement and the great rally against it where Mr. Rogan, Mr. Bajnai and Mr. Mesterhazy all spoke out aginst the jobbik and it's sick ideology and the Együtt 2014 was also created with the participation of the milla wich could be also very popular among youth sp jobbik is in a big trouble thanks God I think even among students and youngsters their popularity decreased a lot and they never could become a governing party because the democratic parties much stronger together (85%) than the jobbik (15%) jobbik is just a temporary sickness of the Hungarian society but Hungarians are wise and they good hearted they will demolish such satanic parties and forces like the jobbik soon or later.

[Arrow Cross]

I am happy that jobbik has such uneducated and primitive voters like you because you are thanks God just a minority even among youngsters
http://hetek.hu/files/images/2012/26/statisztika.jpg

And a bunch of fresh statistics (http://iranytuintezet.hu/sites/default/files/kozv-kut_dec1.pdf) for you.

You are the past. We are the future. Fortunately, fleeing this country will hardly be a major inconvenience for your precious democrats, for they only feel loyalty to their internationalist "values" brought to us on the backs of Red Army tanks. We didn't ask for your Satanic "republics" and we will certainly not miss them when they find themselves in the trash can of history.

[Szegedist]

LMP was in 2011 almos as popular as jobbik among university students 32% (jobbik) vs 29% (lmp) and I didin't talk about the other democratic parties (fidesz, mszp, dk, etc...) and in 2012 jobbik decreased thanks od very dramatically especially after Gyongyosi MP's antisemitic statement and the great rally against it where Mr. Rogan, Mr. Bajnai and Mr. Mesterhazy all spoke out aginst the jobbik and it's sick ideology and the Együtt 2014 was also created with the participation of the milla wich could be also very popular among youth sp jobbik is in a big trouble thanks God I think even among students and youngsters their popularity decreased a lot and they never could become a governing party because the democratic parties much stronger together (85%) than the jobbik (15%) jobbik is just a temporary sickness of the Hungarian society but Hungarians are wise and they good hearted they will demolish such satanic parties and forces like the jobbik soon or later.

Nice to see you gloating over the death&destruction of Hungary, shows everyone your true colours.

[mrkovats]

great stats thank you my truth can be proven:
democratic side 42% vs. jobbik 19% only among students so yes I was right that the jobbik cannot and will not be successful never ever thanks God.

[Szegedist]

great stats thank you my truth can be proven:
democratic side 42% vs. jobbik 19% only among students so yes I was right that the jobbik cannot and will not be successful never ever thanks God.

Nice to see you gloating over the death&destruction of Hungary, shows everyone your true colours.

And you shouldn't thank God, but thank Satan.

These stats are from summer 2012:

According to a recent study, only 39 percent of university students think that democracy is the best of all existing systems (in 2008, 52 percent thoughts so); 33 percent of respondents think that under certain circumstances dictatorship is preferable to democracy and 28 percent of them said that for them it makes no difference.

Young people think that the biggest problem of our time is lack a sense of purpose in life and unemployment -- Jobbik sympathizers add to this the spread of deviant behavior and Gypsy crime.

But what really worries the globalists is the fact that among university students Jobbik is the most preferred party. The study found that 32 percent of all university students are Jobbik supporters, followed by LMP with 29 percent, Fidesz with 25 percent and the socialists and the Gyurcsanyist party combined attract only 13 percent support among young people.

In reality the balance of power even more favorable to Jobbik, as the study found that Jobbik supporters are more inclined to vote and more active than the supporters of the globalist parties. This explains why patriotic youth dominates social sites said the researcher.

The study found that Jobbik support is the strongest at the provincial universities; for instance, 50 percent of Miskolc University students are Jobbik supporters.

The research also found that young people gather information mostly from the Internet, and those sites are firmly controlled by Jobbik and Jobbik sympathizers. Among the main political parties besides Jobbik only Fidesz could attract notable youth support said the researcher.
http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2012/07/globalist-worry-jobbik-support-among.html

[Szegedist]

And if I was you, I would not call Fidesz, DK or MSzP demokratic.
Do you not remember the 2006-2009 police brutality, or the circus Fidesz has created?

[mrkovats]

I wont say thank you for your "lord" the satan because my Lord is Jesus but these stats prove my truth too

jobbik 32% vs. democratic side 67% that's also great :) more than twice higher jobbik is getting weaker and weaker praise the Lord if one day they will disappear hopefully.

[Szegedist]

I wont say thank you for your "lord" the satan because my Lord is Jesus but these stats prove my truth too

jobbik 32% vs. democratic side 67% that's also great :) more than twice higher jobbik is getting weaker and weaker praise the Lord if one day they will disappear hopefully.

Time is on our side, you lot are a dying breed, and will slowly die off.
And who says demokracy is the only way? ;)

Also, you don't seem to grasp politics very well.

[mrkovats]

according to the statistics time is on the democratic side wth its 67% sorry but these are the facts jobbik is dying out with its 32% there is a HUGE gap and belive me I survived more systems than you I absolutaly know what's going on in Hungarian politics I am much more aware of that than you and your jobbik supporter friends.

[Arrow Cross]

One should look beyond the confines of Judapest anyway. Even here, those three political clowns could only mobilize a few hundred Jews, Gypsies and liberals for their infantile and ridiculous yapping about something the Jobbik MP did not even say.

Meanwhile, the rest of the country, over 80%, is experiencing daily terror and crime by "minorities", outright robbery by foreign banksters and/or the unbelievably disastrous effects of liberal democrazy on Hungarian agriculture. And they're growing angry - rightfully so.

1919 might very well repeat itself. This nation cannot be enslaved forever.

[Szegedist]

according to the statistics time is on the democratic side wth its 67% sorry but these are the facts jobbik is dying out with its 32% there is a HUGE gap and belive me I survived more systems than you I absolutaly know what's going on in Hungarian politics I am much more aware of that than you and your jobbik supporter friends.

No, you are not aware of anything, you are just a globalist anti Hungarian moron, a traitor. Jobbik is the only party working for the interests of Hungarians.

Also, you are thinking about a united "demokratic" front, even though MSzP and Fidesz are not exatly great friends, and on many aspects Fidesz is similar to Jobbik.
In fact, these two parties often work together at a local level, against MSzP, and about a 1/3 of Fidesz supporters sympathise with Jobbik, and more 50% of Fidesz supporters were against the ban of the Magyar Gárda. Even though it is banned, it is still able to operate, hold marches, etc :)

I myself know Fidesz supporters whose view are similar to mine, except maybe a bit more "kosher" on the Jewish and gypsy topic, but not that different.


Like I said, stay in Austria you labanc, if you feel like moving, I recommend Tel Aviv, but stay away from Hungary, it has little to do with you :)

[Loki]

Hungarians are central European genetically. They are closest to surrounding nations.

[mrkovats]

sry but this is pure 100% demagogy and as we can see only a minority of Hungarians can be convinced and brainwashed by such stereotypical fictions. Yes there are conflicts I dont doubt and deny that (there is a problem with roma minority there are conflicts) but jobbik is trying to falsly magnify these problems but thanks God the majority dont take this crap on the other hand a lot of people doesent even care about politics at all

[Szegedist]

Are you even Hungarian, or some Gypsy welfare sucker in Vienna?
Your hatred of Hungary and everything Hungarian shines through your posts.

[mrkovats]

szegedist, sweet dreams haha :) fidesz is a pro-Israel, pro-free market democratic party member of the pro-EU European Peoples Party they will never ever work together with the jobbik, the grand coalition between the mszp, dk, fidesz showed up on the anti-neonazi rally in the Kossuth square where Rogan, Mesterhazy, and Bajnai spoke together agains jobbik. Against jobbik anybody will stand together yes ofc there are some primitive radicalists among fidesz supporters but that's a minority a lot of researches proved that. I think you are the traitor of Hungary and the Christian Europe you should move away from Europe if you hate us, Europeans (incl st Stepanian Hungarians too) so you should move to Iran if you and your sick satanist party like that regime so much

[Szegedist]

szegedist, sweet dreams haha :) fidesz is a pro-Israel, pro-free market democratic party member of the pro-EU European Peoples Party they will never ever work together with the jobbik, the grand coalition between the mszp, dk, fidesz showed up on the anti-neonazi rally in the Kossuth square where Rogan, Mesterhazy, and Bajnai spoke together agains jobbik. Against jobbik anybody will stand together yes ofc there are some primitive adicalists among fidesz supporters but that's a minority a lot of researches proved that. I think you are the traitor of Hungary and the Christian Europe you should moce away from Europe if you hate us, European (incl st Stepanian Hungarians too) so much you should move to Iran you and your sick satanist party like that regime so much



Can I just ask, why do you hate Hungary, Hungarians and Christians so much?

I will repeat, Jobbik is the only party working for the interests of Hungarians.
The other are working against Hungary, I hope this clears it up for your simpleminded brain :)

Now leave Hungary alone, as you have nothing to do with this country or it's people or its religion. The only traitor here is you, the disgusting and absolutely filthy labanc.

[mrkovats]

I repeat once and last more: Jobbik is anti-Christian is against Jesus's values about Love and rspect of human life. 2nd Jobbik is against St Stephan and the Western world, the Christian Europe 3 - and because its (Europe and the west) part is Hungary the jobbik is against and hates Hungary too. 4 Jobbik is just a trick of the islamists, the iranian regime and their allies' the russian secret services and government (vona visited before 2009 many times Putin and the jobbik sold Tiszavasvari to iranians) they want to enslave Hungary and whole Europe to the despotic ANTICHRISTian iranian, russian etc regimes. Jobbik and their supporters are guided by the evil and not by God you had better take it seriously jobbik is a danger.

[mrkovats]

I am also Christan, Hungarian and so also European so I cant hate myself :)

[Szegedist]

I am also Christan, Hungarian and so also European so I cant hate myself :)

1) You are none of them my friend, none of them :)

2) Anyway, your globalists parties want to sell Hungary to Brussells, Washington and Tel Aviv. In fact they already have.

3) Jobbik sold Tiszavasvari to Iranians? WTF?

4) Jobbik is not anti-West, the West is anti-Hungarian, and Jobbik accepts this. Despite this fact, Jobbik has orgonised many pan-European events, which included people from many European countries.

5) Does your hook nose stretch when you post your garbage?

6) Jobbik is not the danger, but the cure to your sick liberal policies.

7) Jobbik is pro Szent István , because its pro Christianity, and pro Hungary.

[Loki]

Can I just ask, why do you hate Hungary, Hungarians and Christians so much?

I will repeat, Jobbik is the only party working for the interests of Hungarians.
The other are working against Hungary, I hope this clears it up for your simpleminded brain :)

Now leave Hungary alone, as you have nothing to do with this country or it's people or its religion. The only traitor here is you, the disgusting and absolutely filthy labanc.

Most Hungarians are NOT supporters of Jobbik.

[mrkovats]

lies reamin lies no matter how many times you repeat them non of your statements are true. You made also anti-semitic statements so you are anti-Christian as Archbishop Peter Erdő said do you know who is he?? I hope you know. Good night

[Szegedist]

lies reamin lies no matter how many times you repeat them non of your statements are true. You made also anti-semitic statements so you are anti-Christian as rchbishop Peter Erdő said do you know who is he?? I hope you know. Good night

Who cares what Archbishop Peter Erdő, a member of a corrupt, evil and politically correct organisation says?So called "Catholics"like you are the problem, historically Protestantism was shown to be the true faith of Hungarians.

And which ones of my statements are lies? None of them, they are all true, unlike anything you have said.

[Loki]

Jobbik is a fascist party. :rolleyes:

[Loki]

historically Protestantism was shown to be the true faith of Hungarians.


This is true.

[Szegedist]

Jobbik is a fascist party. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately it isn't, proof please?? Being patriotic is not by definition fascism.

[mrkovats]

"5) Does your hook nose stretch when you post your garbage?"



you and your sentences are the best proof that jobbik and its supporters are soulles hungarists and fascists

[Szegedist]

"5) Does your hook nose stretch when you post your garbage?"



you and your sentences are the best proof that jobbik and its supporters are soulles hungarists and fascists

I was promoted to the spokesman of Jobbik? I never knew this!

Anyway, who are you and your liberal postcommie friends to talk about souls?

[mrkovats]

YOu are extremly far from the ideas what Jesus taught us, you hate Christian west (e.g. in US much more people are attending church weekly than in Hungary) and Europe and you are anti-semitic you cant be a true Christian you may lie about yourself to be a Christain but your words and behaviour tell us that you are on the wrong side :(

[Loki]

1) You are none of them my friend, none of them :)

2) Anyway, your globalists parties want to sell Hungary to Brussells, Washington and Tel Aviv. In fact they already have.

3) Jobbik sold Tiszavasvari to Iranians? WTF?

4) Jobbik is not anti-West, the West is anti-Hungarian, and Jobbik accepts this. Despite this fact, Jobbik has orgonised many pan-European events, which included people from many European countries.

5) Does your hook nose stretch when you post your garbage?

6) Jobbik is not the danger, but the cure to your sick liberal policies.

7) Jobbik is pro Szent István , because its pro Christianity, and pro Hungary.

Stop your insults please. It is not allowed on this forum.

[Loki]

Unfortunately it isn't, proof please?? Being patriotic is not by definition fascism.

During spring 2012, Jobbik representative in Hungarian parliament Zsolt Baráth caused an outrage by commemorating 1882 blood libel against the Jews in Parliament. The Tiszaeszlár blood libel, found later to be unrelated to Jews, was known as first major anti-Jewish event in modern Hungary, predating the Holocaust.

In November 2012 Márton Gyöngyösi, a leader of Jobbik, advised the government to draw up lists of Jews who pose a "national security risk". As Al Jazeera reported, this led to "international condemnation of Nazi-style policies and a protest outside the legislature in Budapest [67] Around ten thousand Hungarians[68] in Budapest protested against the anti-Semitic remarks of Jobbik leader. All major Hungarian political parties took part in the protest. At the protest, Attila Mesterházy the leader of Hungarian Socialist Party described Jobbik as "fascist possessions virus" while Antal Rogán, representing the governing conservative Fidesz party, described Jobbik as "evil"

[Szegedist]

YOu are extremly far from the ideas what Jesus taught us, you hate Christian west (e.g. in US much more people are attending church weekly than in Hungary) and Europe and you are anti-semitic you cant be a true Christian you may lie about yourself to be a Christain but your words and behaviour tell us that ou are on the wrong side :(

You don't know what Christianity is, Szent István tortured, massacred pagans and crushed any opposition by force. This is very different to the fake "Christianity" you believe in and promote.

And how is being antisemitic anti Christian? Jews are the nemesis of Christianity, just read the Talmud.

I will say it once again, I am much more Christian than you or your fellow MSzP members will ever be :)

[Loki]

Jobbik can be compared to Golden Dawn in Greece - only it has more support. This is worrying.

[mrkovats]

You don't know what Christianity is, Szent István tortured, massacred pagans and crushed any opposition by force. This is very different to the fake "Christianity" you believe in and promote.

And how is being antisemitic anti Christian? Jews are the nemesis of Christianity, just read the Talmud.

I will say it once again, I am much more Christian than you or your fellow MSzP members will ever be

it's a right too to live in a lie :(

[Szegedist]

During spring 2012, Jobbik representative in Hungarian parliament Zsolt Baráth caused an outrage by commemorating 1882 blood libel against the Jews in Parliament. The Tiszaeszlár blood libel, found later to be unrelated to Jews, was known as first major anti-Jewish event in modern Hungary, predating the Holocaust.

In November 2012 Márton Gyöngyösi, a leader of Jobbik, advised the government to draw up lists of Jews who pose a "national security risk". As Al Jazeera reported, this led to "international condemnation of Nazi-style policies and a protest outside the legislature in Budapest [67] Around ten thousand Hungarians[68] in Budapest protested against the anti-Semitic remarks of Jobbik leader. All major Hungarian political parties took part in the protest. At the protest, Attila Mesterházy the leader of Hungarian Socialist Party described Jobbik as "fascist possessions virus" while Antal Rogán, representing the governing conservative Fidesz party, described Jobbik as "evil"


And how is this Fascism? This is called "antisemitism", even though it wasn't really antisemitic until the liberal media twisted and lied about it.

If you want some antisemitism, look up the prominent Fidesz member Zsolt Bayer.

[Szegedist]

it's a right too to live in a lie :(

Please, tell me how I am wrong :)

[Loki]

And how is this Fascism? This is called "antisemitism", even though it wasn't really antisemitic until the liberal media twisted and lied about it.

If you want some antisemitism, look up the prominent Fidesz member Zsolt Bayer.

If this isn't fascism then I don't know what is.

[Szegedist]

If this isn't fascism then I don't know what is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascists like Mussolini and Franco were not really antisemitic, and there were Jews in the Italian fascist party.



This days fascism is what liberals call everything that isn't liberalism&globalism.

[mrkovats]

Please, tell me how I am wrong :)

Oh my. To make antiroma and antisemitic statements to call me a "scum" these are really so close to Christian moral hahaha very funny you are as far from christainity and Jesus as Mako from Jerusalem :-) (it is a hungarian saying)

_

[Szegedist]

Oh my. To make antiroma and antisemitic statements to call me a "scum" these are really so close to Christian moral hahaha very funny you are as far from christainity and Jesus as Mako from Jerusalem :-) (it is a hungarian saying)

_

Once again, Szent István used violence and torture, personally I see nothing wrong with this, as sometimes it is necessary.

You on the other hand claim to be a "Stephanian Hungarian" while ignoring this aspect, why are you such a hypocrite? If anything, YOU are the one who goes against the beliefs and actions of Szent István.
Also, do you believe in things like gay marriage?

[Onur]

Jobbik can be compared to Golden Dawn in Greece - only it has more support. This is worrying.
No Loki.

Afaik, Jobbik supporters does not perform stupid acts while doing Nazi salute in the parliament. They don't harass ambassadors nor damage their property. They don't physically attack immigrants and they dont promise to invade their neighbors in their election rallies.

So, you cannot compare Jobbik with Golden Dawn.

[Szegedist]

Also, under Szent István, our Western "brothers" fought against us (Conrad II's military campaign against Hungary ), does this make him a criminal in your eyes, because he dared to fight against a Western Christian country?

[Arrow Cross]

Oh my. To make antiroma and antisemitic statements to call me a "scum" these are really so close to Christian moral hahaha very funny you are as far from christainity and Jesus as Mako from Jerusalem :-) (it is a hungarian saying)

_

Says the guy whose precious Jew-lapdog puppets allow homosexual marches rampaging through the streets of Budapest every year, flaunting their filth into the faces of normal citizens. Do I need to quote you the Bible verses that condemn it as an abomination, or can you find them yourself? This is the same kind of "peace" the Temple of Jerusalem had; before Christ stormed in and kicked the degenerates out.

[Loki]

No Loki.

Afaik, Jobbik supporters does not perform stupid acts while doing Nazi salute in the parliament. They don't harass ambassadors nor damage their property. They don't physically attack immigrants and they dont promise to invade their neighbors in their election rallies.

So, you cannot compare Jobbik with Golden Dawn.

If you really are an anti-fascist as you claim, you would oppose Jobbik. Or are you just against Greeks? Looks like it. Have you seen what Jobbik is doing? It is close to Nazism.

[Accountant]

We have similar words, the very deep roots may be common. The problem is that the absolutely basic words are Finno-Ugric, Turkish and Slavic too. Our language is more mixed than the Germano-Romance English. F.e. some basic words:

the Szem (Eye) is relative with the Finnic "Silmä" (Szem).
The Éj (Night) connect with the Turkish "Ay" (Moon).
The Víz (Water) may connect with Slavic "Voda" (Water).
The Nyak (Neck) is very similar to the English "Neck", German "Nacken" (back of the neck, Hungarian "Nyak" means both neck and throat).


The Éj (Night) sounds a bit similar to the Finnish "Yö" (Night).
The Víz (Water) may connect with Finnish "Vesi" (Water).

Also Nulla is "Nolla" in Finnish. ;)

[Arrow Cross]

If you really are an anti-fascist as you claim, you would oppose Jobbik. Or are you just against Greeks? Looks like it. Have you seen what Jobbik is doing? It is close to Nazism.

Come now, Loki, a South African should know just how left-driven and propagandistic Western media has become. It's doing everything it can to blacken national revival movements in Europe. In the case of Gyöngyösi, they took an admittedly "badly"-phrased sentence (the cataloging of Jews in the parliament who might pose a national security risk, i.e. Israeli dual citizens who openly push for Israeli, and not Hungarian, interests) and turned it into a laughable witch hunt, making it sound like he wanted all Jews of Hungary to wear a yellow star, or something. Meanwhile, in America and many other countries, all ethnic groups, Jews included, are registered in the entire society, let alone its legislature.

The fact of the matter is that as an actual National Socialist, I can very much identify Jobbik as distinctly not a "Fascist" organization. They simply represent what any normal country would be, if not for the radical, extremist leftist push of the last 50 years. They want to end positive racial discrimination, bring order back to the chaotic streets, reinstate a policy of sane, moral national education and pursue, y'know, the actual foreign interests of this country, and not the international banking lobbies every current "mainstream" (but extreme left by the measure of any previous era) party so diligently serves. Kossuth, Széchenyi, Rákóczi, etc. would all be Jobbik-supporters today.

Perhaps you should also ask them (http://www.jobbik.com/) before judging negatively. I don't share their ideology, so I'm not advocating for them here per se; but it's a sober reality in Hungary that right now, they are the only political force that doesn't want to sell this country for scrap. They're honest, idealistic patriots who already proved their worth in both the parliament, and the individual municipalities they acquired through the wish of local voters so desperately longing for order and indeed, normality.

[Onur]

Have you seen what Jobbik is doing? It is close to Nazism.
OK, then someone give us an example of what they are doing in Hungary. Show us some examples like nazi salutes, swastikas, immigrant attacks, calling for murder and showing kill-targets like Golden Dawn does in Greece.

The last thing i heard was, they were against the dual Israeli citizens being elected as parliamentarians in Hungary. Whats wrong about that? A national parliament cannot tolerate double allegiance to some 3rd party country. This is already forbidden in Turkey too, as some deputies lost their chairs after people found out that they are holding US passport as well as Turkish one.

[AseNa]

Uyghurs, Bashkirs and Magyars have a common origin. See for Magna Hungaria (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Hungaria)/Hungarian prehistory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_prehistory)

[Géza]

OFF


It was a good thread about us origin. Please get out here with the daily politics. By the way Szegedist has started this politics-flood when he had started been out of valid arguments. When you cannot say anything shout "Jew" "Nazi" "Globalist" "Communist" "Religion fanatic". In this aspect of view Szegedist and their Turanist kind are so similar to their opponets.



Jobbik is a fascist party. :rolleyes:


Jobbik is a democratic party. They are nothing to do with fascism. We Hungarian use to say, if they were really nazis their opponent wouldn't say anything yet (be cause they would be on their way to the lager). Neonazis simply don't exists Hungary. Only the western media blame our country with this. By the way the western countries with their cutback of Democracy and their neo-colonization attitudes are being start similar to the Third Reich.

http://rt.com/files/usa/news/pro-gun-rallies-344/year-summer-sits-jason.jpg

ON


The Éj (Night) sounds a bit similar to the Finnish "Yö" (Night).
The Víz (Water) may connect with Finnish "Vesi" (Water).

Also Nulla is "Nolla" in Finnish. ;)

Thank you! I am glad to see this thread turn back to the original topic.


Uyghurs, Bashkirs and Magyars have a common origin. See for Magna Hungaria (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Hungaria)/Hungarian prehistory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_prehistory)

All of this has Central-Asian root too with many other kind of ancestry. The Uyghurs are very special with their partly Indo-European (Tokharian) ancestry. Hence they have relationship with the Germans too.

[Szegedist]

Géza I am still waiting for your thoughts on this:

1. The Language

The ProtoHungarians were at least bilingual. Some of them spoke a Finno-Ugrian type of language, others a West-Turkic (Thranian or Onogur) tongue and some others probably an Iranian-Mesopotamian type of language. Gradually a new, composite language evolved, based on the grammatical structure of the Finno–Ugrian component, a logical, simple, agglutinating tongue. It retained the simplest basic words of that language, with the Turkic-Onogur and the Mesopotamian-Iranian elements enriching its vocabulary.

The name the Hungarians apply to themselves, ‘Magyar", derives from the Ugrian "Mansi– or "Magy–" with the addition of the Turkic "-eri." forming "Megyeri" – "Magyen." – "Magyar", which became the name of the largest tribe Both particles mean "men". The name given to them by the western historians, ‘Hungarian" (Latin: "Hungarus"), is a variation of the name "Hun-Ogur" – "Onogur" – "Hungur" used since the fifth century by foreign chroniclers, a reminder of their association with TurkicOnogur-Hun peoples.

2. Racial composition

Anthropometric measurements carried out on skeletons from the settlement period indicate a racially composite people. The main components were the Turanoid (Turkic-Onogur), the East–Baltic (Finno-Ugrian), the Uralian or Ugrian (the eastern branch of the Finno-Ugrian) with substantial components of Caucasian, Anatolian, Nordoid, Dinarian, Mediterranean and Alpine racial types.

3. Ethnogenesis

This linguistically and racially composite nation has obviously evolved from the successive amalgamations of clans, tribes and groups of various racial and geographical origins. The ProtoHungarian people were made up of some Nordic tribes of Ugrian origin who came from the Volga–Kama-Ural region and of a (probably larger) eastern component of Turkic–Onogur (Turanian) people who came from the Caspian region. These Turkic elements included Scythian, Hunnic and Avar types as well and later some Khazars. To these came the third, southern segment, the Caucasian (Sabir, Alanian) and Iranian-Mesopotamian elements.

It has been proven that all these races, cultures and languages contributed to the formation of the Magyar or Hungarian people and from their amalgamations arose during the first centuries of the Christian era a remarkably colorful, complex and viable nation, not unlike today’s evolving nations, the Australians or the Americans. The latent dynamism of this young People urged them to move on in search of a safer, more suitable homeland. These migrations lasted many centuries

Or are you going to keep portraying me as a hardcore Turanist who thinks we are 100% Turanic and nothing else (despite me saying otherwise several times, you only seem to hear what you want).

I have to disappoint you, but I myself however don't feel ,and I am not Slavic or Germanic, is that a problem? Or should Hungarian identity be further weakened with a multicultural hodge podge, where every Hungarian with last name Tóth will have to learn Slovak and every Hungarian with last name Németh learn and "become" German?

[Szegedist]

Anyway, as for Bashkir,Historian and linguist András Róna-Tas believes the ethonym "Bashkir" is a Bulgar Turkic reflex of the Hungarian self-denomination "Magyar" (Old Hungarian: "Majer") and I have also read that it is a Turkified Finno-Ugric language.

"Early records on the Bashkirs are found in medieval works by Sallam Tardzheman (9th cent.) and Ibn-Fadlan (10th cent.). Al-Balkhi (10th cent.) described Bashkirs as a people divided into two groups, one inhabiting the Southern Urals, the second group living on the Danube plain near the boundaries of Byzantium——therefore - given the geography and date - referring to either Danube Bulgars or Magyars (the former is more likely). Ibn Rustah, a contemporary of Al Balkhi, observed that Bashkirs were an independent people occupying territories on both sides of the Ural mountain ridge between Volga, Kama, and Tobol Rivers and upstream of the Yaik river."

This is also interesting:
http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2011/01/magyar-madzar-madiar-ethnonym-in.html




Also, I found this on another forum:

This would be pronounced like "mazhar" when spelled with English orthography. This information comes from a book called "On the Tracks of Friar Julian: Journeys Across Mongolia" by photographer Mihály Benkő. The preface is written by Hungarian linguist János Harmatta.

The story goes like this:

The Eastern Cumanians were being defeated by the Mongols. A combined Russian-Cumanian force was severely defeated at the Khalkha River. In 1227, the Western Cumanians declared themselves to be subjects to the Kingdom of Hungary and converted to Christianity in order to seek protection from the Mongols. In 1229, an Episcopate attached to the Archbishop in Esztergom was established in southern Moldavia for these Cumans. Prince Bela saw a need to extend Hungarian intelligence eastward due to this religio-political change. Thus an old legend about Hungarians who stayed behind in "Scythia" was given new life and Bela funded Dominican travels into Scythia.

In 1232, a group of Dominican friars set off on a quest to meet "Eastern Magyars". After three years, a Friar Otto met with Hungarian-speaking people "in a pagan country". He learned from them where the Eastern Magyars lived and then returned to Hungary instead of trying to go visit them. Another group of Dominican friars set off in 1235 using information from this report. Of these monks, Friar Julian ended up traveling to Magna Bulgaria and met a Magyar woman. She told him they lived two day's away to the east "at the Large Etil River" or Ulugh Etil, Volga.

There's two independent reports from the 1200s on Eastern Magyars. So what happened with them? According the Harmatta, they joined with the Mongols. These Eastern Magyars were dispersed throughout the Mongol Empire. One part remained a part of the Golden Horde and left place-names and clan-names in western Kazakhstan (i.e. Mad'yar). Some others were found with the Chaghatai. The Madzhar clan appeared in the army of Sheibani Uzbek khan, some lived between Bukhara and Samarkand, some lived among the Khivan Uzbeks. (I suspect most of this information is based upon known clan names Madyar and Macar among the Kazakhs and Uzbeks.) Now in the 20th century (1999 to be exact), Mihaly Benko met with some in the Mongolian Altai.

Extracts from the book:

"In Hungary it had been reported that a tribe named "Mazsar" was living in western Kazakhstan, in territories that were off-limits to foreigners in Soviet times. I expressed my opinion that we Hungarians had to learn everything we could about a tribe with this name, living in Central Asia... Besides, the town of Uralsk, said to be the center of the Mazsars' area of settlement, is only 350 km south of Magna Hungarian, where Brother Julian, the envoy of Hungarian king Bela IV, found the Eastern Hungarians in 1237.
"Maszars live here too!" my hosts exclaimed. "Near us, in the valley of the Hovd River and on the alpine pastures of the Cengel Hairhan Uul. Why didn't you ever tell us that you are looking for them!?"
"

"Their names and the language they speak are Kazakh. Even so, the real Kazakhs distinguish themselves from the Mazsars."

"On occasion the Kazakhs of the Mongolian Altai wear silver fitted belts and put silver fitted saddles on their horses. The frames of the fittings are symbols of the tribe or the clan of the Kazakh man. Only among the Mazsars did I see fittings with palmettos that bore a strong resemblance to the fittings of the ancient Hungarians' belts and saddles.
I saw wooden headboards only in the Mazsar cemetery in the Mongolian Altai.
I was most interested in hearing the Mazsar legends of origin... But to my great surprise, the Mazsars told me legends directly paralleling Hungarian legends about the "deer people"...
"We are the deer people, and we headed westward on the track of a wandering stag a thousand years ago. We clashed with a very strong people around the border of Asia and Europe. Our brothers were fighting; many of them fell in action... Those who survived marched farther west. We who are living in Asia now are the offspring of those cowards who kid to save their lives..."

A year later, in 2000, Benko returned and met with other Mazsars:

"A thousand years ago we wandered westward. Far from here, over the Syr Darya River, near an enormous lake, our people clashed with another nation. We lost the battle. Our brothers fought bravely, and many of them perished; those who survived, marched further westward. But there were also cowards, children, women and very old people among us who had not taken part in the battle; they hid away. They were our ancestors who later returned to Asia
We also have another legend, that we wandered following a stag. We did not hunt the animal; we followed it. The deer knows very well where rich pastures and thick forests can be found, so it is useful to follow this animal as it wanders. Our ancestors got bored following the stag such a long way, and they turned back. Our more steadfast brothers followed the track of the deer further westward."
"What happened to your brothers who wandered further westward?"
"As far as we know, they are living behind a mountain on the small continent now. Are they your people?"
"Yes, we are they."
"Far away from here, you must have kept our old customs and language better than we did."
"We kept the language, but we became Christians and ploughmen."
"Then neither you nor we are the same as we were. Neither of us has the right to criticize the other."


more:
http://steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=board20&action=print&thread=920



Géza, do you think it is not important to find our real origin. Is "We are just assimilated Slavo-Germanics" really good enough for you?

I understand that our origins are complex, we have had additions from many, many people over the years, in Asia to Europe. Our ethnic group split apart many times, and wondered off into many directions, some of their descendants are still alive in Asia today.
If some signs point to Sumeria for example, why shouldn't we investigate it? Because you don't like the sound of it?

I know that our origins often get taken to extremes, one of them is that we were originally living in the Carpathian Basin, then left during the ice age, and came back in 895 :rofl:

But I will say it now, we will never be Slavic or Germanic, no matter how hard you try to make this, we will always be Hungarain. This is the propaganda of our enemies, that we are not a real people, just a fake nation made from other people speaking the language of our invaders. This is exactly the thing I get from Slovak propaganists, and it is sad that now Hungarians repeat it as well.

I myself know a Hungarian who is 25% Slovak and 75% Swabian, but he still identifies as Hungarian, and identifies with Attila, Árpád , and not Svatopluk I or Otto von Bismarck. And before you ask, no he is not brainwashed or stupid, just true to his Hungarian heart.

The fact that we have been very hospitable people, and allowed everyone and anyone to come with us and live with us, doesn't mean that we are any less of a people and identity.

Just my 200 forints...

[Proto-Shaman]

All of this has Central-Asian root too with many other kind of ancestry. The Uyghurs are very special with their partly Indo-European (Tokharian) ancestry. Hence they have relationship with the Germans too.
Nah :) Don't mistake with Turkic Tokhars (a Turkic tribe) with the Indo-European language without name ("Tocharian A, B, C") :) Actually there are about 4000 similar words between Uyghur and Magyar language. If you can understand Magyar or German, I recommend you to watch this video:
9XHqcaEq3TY

[Arrow Cross]

Jobbik is a democratic party. They are nothing to do with fascism. We Hungarian use to say, if they were really nazis their opponent wouldn't say anything yet (be cause they would be on their way to the lager). Neonazis simply don't exists Hungary. Only the western media blame our country with this. By the way the western countries with their cutback of Democracy and their neo-colonization attitudes are being start similar to the Third Reich.

We certainly do (http://kitartas.mozgalom.org/aktualis/becsulet-napja) exist, rest assured of that, although the old-school Arrow Cross Pax Hungarica Movement and other, fully NS organizations are light years away from football hoolie skinheads in attitude and behaviour.

Also, while Jobbik adheres to the rules of democrazy for now, it has officially stated on multiple occasions that it isn't a "democratic" party, as it serves no distinct ideology, or state form, only the interests of the nation. I disagree with that approach, but I respect them and most Jobbik members/supporters also respect National Socialism to one degree or another, openly or not.

[Géza]

Géza I am still waiting for your thoughts on this:

You cannot understand that very mixed Ancient Hungairans were only one group of the inhabitants of the Carpathian Basin in the 10th centurry. Those Uralid and Turanid aristocracy of the rather fully European common people of Árpád's Hungarians were drop in the bucket. The Balkanic, Slavic and Germanic immigration after the Turkish Era only have forced the original trends and they have balanced the later arrived Turkish groups (Pechenegs, Cumans).



Géza, do you think it is not important to find our real origin. Is "We are just assimilated Slavo-Germanics" really good enough for you?


Real origin? We are not the s-a-m-e people with the Ancient Hungarians. They origins are not equal with our origin.




I understand that our origins are complex, we have had additions from many, many people over the years, in Asia to Europe. Our ethnic group split apart many times, and wondered off into many directions, some of their descendants are still alive in Asia today.
If some signs point to Sumeria for example, why shouldn't we investigate it?

Be cause the Sumerian origin is absolutely fake. I was courious, but I just see that "scholars" use the contemporary Hungarian language side by side we don't know about the Sumerian phonetics. We don't know about their look, their anthropological appearence (only just few sculpture and picture).



I know that our origins often get taken to extremes, one of them is that we were originally living in the Carpathian Basin, then left during the ice age, and came back in 895 :rofl:

This is one of the phantastic theories. In the other hand some of us the real descendant of the local Paleolothic inhabitants. But they are very uglies with our Hungarian standards. :)


But I will say it now, we will never be Slavic or Germanic, no matter how hard you try to make this, we will always be Hungarain. This is the propaganda of our enemies, that we are not a real people, just a fake nation made from other people speaking the language of our invaders. This is exactly the thing I get from Slovak propaganists, and it is sad that now Hungarians repeat it as well.

It is not propaganda just the truth. All the nationalist ideologies in Europe born in the age of romanticism. We must become to adult and see the real world.



I myself know a Hungarian who is 25% Slovak and 75% Swabian, but he still identifies as Hungarian, and identifies with Attila, Árpád , and not Svatopluk I or Otto von Bismarck. And before you ask, no he is not brainwashed or stupid, just true to his Hungarian heart.

Oh, you speak about a Hígmagyar (wishy-washy Hungarian. newcomer). :) He simply deny his/her ancestors. In the aspects of view of their ancestors he is a traitor. In the aspects of view of mine he is an idiot. He is nothing to do with Árpád unlike me. Árpád's people were my ancestors. Attila was a Hunnic ruler with uncertain ancestry. We don't know about their language and race. But we know they mixed strongly with the Visigoths. Their empire was rather a Turco-Germanic nomadic state.


The fact that we have been very hospitable people, and allowed everyone and anyone to come with us and live with us, doesn't mean that we are any less of a people and identity.

It means that. Lot of immigrant have comen over here and nowadays they want destroy my idenitiy. I don't speak about the fals romantic ideas, but I speak about our real flesh and blood and living language and culture.



Nah :) Don't mistake with Turkic Tokhars (a Turkic tribe) with the Indo-European language without name ("Tocharian A, B, C") :) Actually there are about 4000 similar words between Uyghur and Magyar language. If you can understand Magyar or German, I recommend you to watch this video:
9XHqcaEq3TY

IE Tocharians are Tokhar in Hungarian, hence my mistype. Could I get a list about that 4000 similar word? I have not enough time see this video with Chinese-look ladies. :)



We certainly do (http://kitartas.mozgalom.org/aktualis/becsulet-napja) exist, rest assured of that, although the old-school Arrow Cross Pax Hungarica Movement and other, fully NS organizations are light years away from football hoolie skinheads in attitude and behaviour.

Also, while Jobbik adheres to the rules of democrazy for now, it has officially stated on multiple occasions that it isn't a "democratic" party, as it serves no distinct ideology, or state form, only the interests of the nation. I disagree with that approach, but I respect them and most Jobbik members/supporters also respect National Socialism to one degree or another, openly or not.

They are just traditional nationalists with interesting to WWII Era. Interest to old-school uniforms and old books don't mean nazism. Colonizating free states for oil and brainwashing the own civils to make them subhuman slaves mean nazim.


Jobbik is an absolutely democratic party in pursuance of the original Democracy, not the pseudo-democratic police state of the Western countries.


http://www.pakalertpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/POLICE-STATE-USA-The-Paranoid-Style-of-American-Governance.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

IE Tocharians are Tokhar in Hungarian, hence my mistype.
No, you get me right. Your sentence was also right. The point is that "Tocharian A" is a philological euphemism for Turfanian, Arsi, or East Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan! "Tocharian B" is a philological euphemism for Kuchea or West Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan!

The euphemisms were invented in great drive for locating Indo-European Urheimat, to tie Indo-European languages to known horse nomadic conqueror tribes, and are recognized misnomers. Euphemisms do not belong to science, they are a tool of politicians. Tokhars - presumably "highlanders", from "tau" - mountain and "ar" - people, tribe; their known Türkic names are Tuhsi, Dügers, Digors; they became known from the work of Strabo. [...]. Both names, Tokhars and Hephthalites, are exploited by protagonists of Indo-European racial theory as a bridge for creation alternative history and introduction of Indo-Europeans in the history of Central Asia, and creation of scientific controversy and muddling up the history. Both tribes are known as members of the Eastern Hunnic state; the Chinese name Yuezhi is routinely used in the scientific and popular literature to refer to Tokhars. Very rarely the esteemed authors note that “Tokharian/Tocharian” is a misnomer for the Kuchean and Tarim languages, and even rarer are noted disclaimers that “Tokharian/Tocharian” has nothing to do with the language of Tokhars/Yuezhi/Θαγοθροι/Tuhsi/Düger/Duger/Digors.


Could I get a list about that 4000 similar word?
You are joking or denying my friend?


I have not enough time see this video with Chinese-look ladies. :)
DNA tell another story, you know that?

[Szegedist]

You cannot understand that very mixed Ancient Hungairans were only one group of the inhabitants of the Carpathian Basin in the 10th centurry. Those Uralid and Turanid aristocracy of the rather fully European common people of Árpád's Hungarians were drop in the bucket. The Balkanic, Slavic and Germanic immigration after the Turkish Era only have forced the original trends and they have balanced the later arrived Turkish groups (Pechenegs, Cumans).

Yes I can understand, however this was the most important group.






Real origin? We are not the s-a-m-e people with the Ancient Hungarians. They origins are not equal with our origin.
Their origin is indeed equal to our origin. I am Hungarian, they were Hungarians. They gave us the name, language, identity, founded the state.


Be cause the Sumerian origin is absolutely fake.
Then the good scholars can disprove it, and that will be that.



Oh, you speak about a Hígmagyar (wishy-washy Hungarian. newcomer). :) He simply deny his/her ancestors.

A "wishy washy" Hungarian is one that identifies with his Slavic or Germanic roots he assumes he might have.



In the aspects of view of their ancestors he is a traitor.
Correct, just like János Damjanich, Ernő Kiss , etc. Were they not Hungarians to you?



He is nothing to do with Árpád unlike me. Árpád's people were my ancestors.
Oh really? You said something contrary several times, borderline rejecting Árpád.



It means that. Lot of immigrant have comen over here and nowadays they want destroy my idenitiy.
And what is your identity? What is Hungarian to you? Slavo-Germanics?



Jobbik is an absolutely democratic party in pursuance of the original Democracy, not the pseudo-democratic police state of the Western countries.

I will be perfectly satisfied with democracy that we had under Admiral Horthy.


I have not enough time see this video with Chinese-look ladies
To simply look skin deep is very wrong when it comes to looking for origin.





You are joking or denying my friend?

I am not joking or denying, but I am interested in seeing those words too.

[Arrow Cross]

Unfortunately, our friend Géza has severely lacking knowledge in a variety of topics here, including the very ideologies that shaped his nation. Let us hope his stay on this forum will help mitigate this.

In the meantime, the thread is still about the origin of Hungarians, not the various Indo-Europeans who immigrated and assimilated here.

[Onur]

Real origin? We are not the s-a-m-e people with the Ancient Hungarians. They origins are not equal with our origin

Their origin is indeed equal to our origin. I am Hungarian, they were Hungarians. They gave us the name, language, identity, founded the state.
Guys, i don't understand why you are arguing over this issue.

Bulgarians are doing this argument but they lost nearly everything from their founding fathers, including their language, so it`s kinda normal for them to argue over their origin but you Hungarians still preserve the language of your forefathers today. I think it`s absurd to argue over this.

Your true roots lies within your language, state and culture, not with some obscure DNA connections with your neighboring peoples. This means nothing anyway because everyone is similar with their neighbors. This is not something special to you. You are similar with them as much as they are similar with you in genetics wise. So, you are Slavs/Germans as much as Slavs/Germans are Hungarians.

[Géza]

You are joking or denying my friend?

No, I would like to see those list gladly.



Their origin is indeed equal to our origin. I am Hungarian, they were Hungarians. They gave us the name, language, identity, founded the state.


You cannot understand. Their origin was different, f.e. they haven't got Balkanic Romance ancestry like as many of us. They didn't give the langauge as our language is full of Slavic and Germanic worlds unlike their. Only the state has held.


Correct, just like János Damjanich, Ernő Kiss , etc. Were they not Hungarians to you?

In the aspect of view of the then Romantic idea all they were Hungarian. In another aspect of view Jovan Damjanić was an apostata Serb. The coin has two side.


Oh really? You said something contrary several times, borderline rejecting Árpád.

I have written many times Árpád's Anceint Hungarian was one group of our ancestors. You may be a troll, now I am seeing. :picard1:




And what is your identity? What is Hungarian to you? Slavo-Germanics?

I have written above I am Hungarian. You lack of valid arguments. Hence you just say over idiot question.


I will be perfectly satisfied with democracy that we had under Admiral Horthy.

Rear Admiral Horthy's system was not democracy he pursuited their opposition.



To simply look skin deep is very wrong when it comes to looking for origin.

You amy need glasses to see those obivous Far-Eastern Asian traits some of them.




Unfortunately, our friend Géza has severely lacking knowledge in a variety of topics here, including the very ideologies that shaped his nation. Let us hope his stay on this forum will help mitigate this.

In the meantime, the thread is still about the origin of Hungarians, not the various Indo-Europeans who immigrated and assimilated here.


You lack valid arguments, hence now you claim me with the lacking of datas about our history. It is surprising when one of us uses the tools of the mainstream media. I hope Arrow Cross will spout from the monolithic misbiliefs of the mainstream science and from the romantic delusions of some nationalist.


Those various IE people were our ancestors too, hence we must enage in them. I cannot believe people like you incapable to comprehend those Turkic people were only one group of our ancestors. You are just the very people whose spread we descented from Siberian hunter-gatheres, in our Educaton system. Turanists and Finno-Ugorist: two different and opponent idea, one same method to force hooded crap. :picard1:


Guys, i don't understand why you are arguing over this issue.

Bulgarians are doing this argument but they lost nearly everything from their founding fathers, including their language, so it`s kinda normal for them to argue over their origin but you Hungarians still preserve the language of your forefathers today. I think it`s absurd to argue over this.

Bulgarians lost their Slavic root too, except the language. They are very Balkanic people.


Your true roots lies within your language, state and culture, not with some obscure DNA connections with your neighboring peoples. This means nothing anyway because everyone is similar with their neighbors. This is not something special to you. You are similar with them as much as they are similar with you in genetics wise. So, you are Slavs/Germans as much as Slavs/Germans are Hungarians.

Did you say obscure DNA? Let come here see us and see our neighbours. You would see one people with same culture and different languages.

You Turks are closer to Armenians, Greek and Arabs rather than us.

[Szegedist]

You cannot understand. Their origin was different, f.e. they haven't got Balkanic Romance ancestry like as many of us. They didn't give the langauge as our language is full of Slavic and Germanic worlds unlike their. Only the state has held.
How was their origin different?
And English has many French words in their language, does that mean they are not Germanic, or...?



I have written many times Árpád's Anceint Hungarian was one group of our ancestors. You may be a troll, now I am seeing. :picard1:
It was the main and most important group, the other ones were simply additions to the Árpád group.
And troll? Look who is running out of arguments now..



Rear Admiral Horthy's system was not democracy he pursuited their opposition.
The demokracy in those days was limited, but it was still demokracy, there were elections, etc. Horthy was far from a totalitarian leader.



You amy need glasses to see those obivous Far-Eastern Asian traits some of them.
Some look far eastern, but many do not. What is your point?





Did you say obscure DNA? Let come here see us and see our neighbours. You would see one people with same culture and different languages.
:picard1:
Do you have an inferiority complex or something? Or are you just another of those hidden pan slavist pseudo-Hungarian infiltrators?
There are many like this, they are a problem like Jews in the Hungarian parliament, one seeks the interests of Israel, the other seeks the interests of Little Entente.

[Proto-Shaman]

I am not joking or denying, but I am interested in seeing those words too.
Welcome to the club :D I haven't got even a hint about where I can find works concerning this. I thought you are Magyars, you could research on it in your language, isn't it?

Whatever the case, I found an interesting work:



Although this finding could result from chance, it is striking and suggests that there could have been genetic contact between the ancestors of the Madjars and Magyars, and thus that modern Hungarians may trace their ancestry to Central Asia, instead of the Eastern Uralic region as previously thought.
A Y-chromosomal comparison of the Madjars (Kazakhstan) and the Magyars (Hungary) (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20984/abstract)

The highest concentration of G1 within a distinct group within a country was reported among the Madjars and Argyns of Kazakhstan where G1 persons comprised 87% of 45 samples.

[Onur]

Their origin was different, f.e. they haven't got Balkanic Romance ancestry like as many of us. They didn't give the langauge as our language is full of Slavic and Germanic worlds unlike their. Only the state has held.
Only the state? what matters is your statehood and it`s heritage, not some loan words from the language of neighboring peoples or some shallow DNA connections with them.

Also, this is a natural development of a human culture. This occurs in everywhere in the world but you relate this cultural development throughout time as some kind of renewal but it`s not because the core culture remains. These loanwords and marriages with your neighboring peoples are just later additions to the core but the main element is what matters. For example, i am sure you are adopting some English words to your language for 50 years. Now what? You are evolving into British or Americans anymore? Ofc not!



You Turks are closer to Armenians, Greek and Arabs rather than us.
Genetics wise, yes it`s true, because we are living here for 1000 years like you live in Pannonia for about 1000 years. But like i said, this doesn't matter at all because this is a natural process.

Our core cultural element is still here. We still speak our ancestral tongue, we still name our children as Tuğrul or Attila. Our culture still lives in no matter what, whether we are genetically closer to Armenians or whether we have Arabic loanwords today.

[Proto-Shaman]

Turanid racial types are up to 24% and Pamiri-Dinarid racial types are up to 20% evident among Hungarians:
P58n74TMdRI

[Proto-Shaman]

Hungarian roots: Honfoglalás előtt (http://csucslovak.hu/honfoglalas-elott/)
http://www.csucslovak.hu/cikkek/images/Turanilo_nagy2.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

nmfzjx3BdIQ

[Proto-Shaman]

KD8A4AkiN-g

[Géza]

KD8A4AkiN-g


The Echo of Dal Riada have some song about the Turkish conquer too. :)

bZ15tVKPTHY

Lyric:

Mily számmal valátok, az fertelmes pogányi.
Mily haddal nyomátok- rabot, kincset találni.
Mily vészben valának szabadjaink végvári.
Mint ûztök falának emberei, jószági.

Bennünkben kárt tesztök, ha elegen valátok,
De bajosan gyõztök, ha kevesen vigyáztok.
Sok számosan lesztök, ha eljön a haláltok-
Csak bölcsebben tesztök, ha elegen vigyáztokÂ…

Hazug istenébe' meg ne igen bízzatok!
Ország közepébe' sok hadat meghí'jatok!
Várak erõsébe' vitézül megvívjatok,
Szultán gyõzelmébe' meg ne igen bízzatok!

S Ti, vitéz társaim! Hazáért kiálljatok!
Jó lovak hátain vért, sebet ne bánjatok!
Ellennek számain el ne csodálkozzatok!
Országnak kárain véres bosszút álljatok!

Refrén:

Erdõ kerekébe, ország elejébe, tipord a pogányt az zöld mezejébe!
Várnak tetejébe, hegynek peremébe, veszejtsd el a rablót, úgy lész temetése!
Hátadnak mögötte- nyílt seb már az ország.
Asszonyinkról, gyermekinkrõl ne fordítsd el orcád!
Erdõ kerekébe, ország elejébe, tipord a pogányt az zöld mezejébe!



I am lazy, hence I just translate the refrain:

In the forest, at the frontier of the land, stomp the pagan to the green field!
At the top of the fortress, at the edge of the hill, kill the robber, let for him a funeral!
At your back the land is opened wound.
About our ladies, children don't turn away your face!
In the forest, at the frontier of the land, stomp the pagan to the green filed!




But this is not offend against the contemporary Turks, but it's a ballad about the heroic times. :)

[AinoMaria]

Nothing new for me my friend ;) But relevance here? Don't forget "Hun" is a multiethnic term.

It's Magyars.. -.-

[AinoMaria]

Yes I can understand, however this was the most important group.






Their origin is indeed equal to our origin. I am Hungarian, they were Hungarians. They gave us the name, language, identity, founded the state.


Then the good scholars can disprove it, and that will be that.




A "wishy washy" Hungarian is one that identifies with his Slavic or Germanic roots he assumes he might have.



Correct, just like János Damjanich, Ernő Kiss , etc. Were they not Hungarians to you?



Oh really? You said something contrary several times, borderline rejecting Árpád.



And what is your identity? What is Hungarian to you? Slavo-Germanics?



I will be perfectly satisfied with democracy that we had under Admiral Horthy.


To simply look skin deep is very wrong when it comes to looking for origin.





I am not joking or denying, but I am interested in seeing those words too.

soo.. do you think that the ancient Hungarians, Árpád's group, were Turckic or Finno-ugric? or something else?

[Proto-Shaman]

it's magyars.. -.-
i know what magyar is since my childhood!

[Géza]

How was their origin different?
And English has many French words in their language, does that mean they are not Germanic, or...?

Exactly! English are not always Germanic. Many of them looks similar to the Irish f.e. The origin of the language and the tall blond guys in East-Scotland and East-England are Germanic origined.




It was the main and most important group, the other ones were simply additions to the Árpád group.
And troll? Look who is running out of arguments now..

The importance of the group then is not equal with the spread of their genes of then and now population. In this aspect of view the most important was the Turkic Khazar and the Uralid Ugric families of the elit. This people were vamishing in the 10th too.




The demokracy in those days was limited, but it was still demokracy, there were elections, etc. Horthy was far from a totalitarian leader.

Limited democracy is not democracy. He and his government influence to the daily life of their people. F.e. they pursuited the Turanist neopagans too. They forced the assmiliation of the minorities (except the Gypsys). His system was not a classical totalitarian, but dictatoric.




Some look far eastern, but many do not. What is your point?

Nobody of us looks Far-Eastern. At the most a tiny piece of us have vanishing Asian influence. The Turkish guys have posted some good example in other threads.






:picard1:
Do you have an inferiority complex or something? Or are you just another of those hidden pan slavist pseudo-Hungarian infiltrators?
There are many like this, they are a problem like Jews in the Hungarian parliament, one seeks the interests of Israel, the other seeks the interests of Little Entente.

Probably you have some complex to cannot understand our composite origin and cannot step toward from nowadays politics in a thread about history.


Only the state? what matters is your statehood and it`s heritage, not some loan words from the language of neighboring peoples or some shallow DNA connections with them.

Also, this is a natural development of a human culture. This occurs in everywhere in the world but you relate this cultural development throughout time as some kind of renewal but it`s not because the core culture remains. These loanwords and marriages with your neighboring peoples are just later additions to the core but the main element is what matters. For example, i am sure you are adopting some English words to your language for 50 years. Now what? You are evolving into British or Americans anymore? Ofc not!


Our culture is closer to the neighbours culture. The Turkish worlds in our language are loandwords too. Just later additions what you said.




Genetics wise, yes it`s true, because we are living here for 1000 years like you live in Pannonia for about 1000 years. But like i said, this doesn't matter at all because this is a natural process.

Our core cultural element is still here. We still speak our ancestral tongue, we still name our children as Tuğrul or Attila. Our culture still lives in no matter what, whether we are genetically closer to Armenians or whether we have Arabic loanwords today.

Attila name have used since the late 19th. It is not a typical Hungarian name. F.e. the Germans and the Slavs have recreated some old name from the past. But the Attila was not used by Ancient Hungarians. We have not any source about it. Togrul/Turul is not a Hungarian first name. It only is used to the bird name. It means nothing in our language. Our nowadays culture is the Globalist pop-culture with Hungarian language. But our culture in the 19th century had few Turkish element. Most of them have brought with the Ottomans like the clothes as Dolmány (Dolman). Only the folk dance had some element what is similar to the Kazaks and the Russian dance-step.

The Turanist nowadays always use to force Central-Asian cultural elements. It is so funny when they dance with exclusively typical Kazak steps and they use Central-Asian and Mongolian instruments. It is not cultural heritage, it is contemporary loan.



Turanid racial types are up to 24% and Pamiri-Dinarid racial types are up to 20% evident among Hungarians:
P58n74TMdRI


It is simply not ture. Dinarid elements are common, but a pred. Dinarid face with big nose use to be considered "rum" "Balkanic". Turanid and Pamirid face are so rare and these are strange among us.


Hungarian roots: Honfoglalás előtt (http://csucslovak.hu/honfoglalas-elott/)
http://www.csucslovak.hu/cikkek/images/Turanilo_nagy2.jpg

The only sure location is Etelköz in West-Ukrain. The others are disputed theories.


soo.. do you think that the ancient Hungarians, Árpád's group, were Turckic or Finno-ugric? or something else?

They were mixed. The narrow elit of them was both Finno-Ugric and Turkic Khazar origined. Later we have assimilated many Trukic ethnic groups like as the Cumans or the Pechenegs. Hence we have some little Far-Eastern influenced one and Turkic cultural heritage (music, dance, alphabet).

[Szegedist]

Exactly! English are not always Germanic. Many of them looks similar to the Irish f.e. The origin of the language and the tall blond guys in East-Scotland and East-England are Germanic origined.
Your point being? Do Irish looking Englishmen have any less right to call themselves English?



The importance of the group then is not equal with the spread of their genes of then and now population. In this aspect of view the most important was the Turkic Khazar and the Uralid Ugric families of the elit. This people were vamishing in the 10th too.
You think way too much about genes, it is not the most important thing. (but still important especially when it comes to Africans who have inferior genetics).





Limited democracy is not democracy. He and his government influence to the daily life of their people. F.e. they pursuited the Turanist neopagans too. They forced the assmiliation of the minorities (except the Gypsys). His system was not a classical totalitarian, but dictatoric.
It was a demokracy, just not a liberal one, there were elections, multiple parties, etc. Your view of demokracy is too narrow.
Horthy himself was not a politician, his role was more similar to a president we have no just with little bit more power (originally, he was supposed to have less power, but he refused this role the first time until they changed the conditions).



Probably you have some complex to cannot understand our composite origin and cannot step toward from nowadays politics in a thread about history.
I have posted several times and admitted several times that genetically we have composite origin. How many times do I need to repeat it?



Our culture is closer to the neighbours culture. The Turkish worlds in our language are loandwords too. Just later additions what you said.
Closer due to our historic influence.
And nobody claims that our average culture is closer to Turks, religion played a big role in this too. But we have parts in our culture that our neigbours do not.






The Turanist nowadays always use to force Central-Asian cultural elements. It is so funny when they dance with exclusively typical Kazak steps and they use Central-Asian and Mongolian instruments. It is not cultural heritage, it is contemporary loan.

Kodály Zoltán :
We actually have two mother tongues,one is the spoken language of Finno-Ugric origin, and the other is the language of our music, which is the westernmost branch of a great Asian musical culture extending from China through Middle Asia to our area."

[Proto-Shaman]

The only sure location is Etelköz in West-Ukrain. The others are disputed theories.
And what do you think about Magna Hungaria? There are four out of seven similar tribal names with the Bashkirs of Bashkortostan.

[Szegedist]

There were Hungarians who lived near Bashkira and Volga Bulgaria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friar_Julian

Also there is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Magyars

[Proto-Shaman]

There were Hungarians who lived near Bashkira and Volga Bulgaria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friar_Julian

Also there is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Magyars
And what do you know about those 4 common tribes with Bashkir Turks? What do you know about them?

[Géza]

Your point being? Do Irish looking Englishmen have any less right to call themselves English?

Irish don't look those real Germanic Englishmen in the East-Coast of Britain.




You think way too much about genes, it is not the most important thing. (but still important especially when it comes to Africans who have inferior genetics).

Is it important or not? Where is the border? Who does the line trace? The Gypsys have South-Indian admixture. Did you see ever a picture about those people? They are somewhere between Negros and Australian Aboriginals. Good luck for a half-caste Gypsy lady! Your children really will have to do with Árpád's Hungairans. :picard1:








It was a demokracy, just not a liberal one, there were elections, multiple parties, etc. Your view of demokracy is too narrow.
Horthy himself was not a politician, his role was more similar to a president we have no just with little bit more power (originally, he was supposed to have less power, but he refused this role the first time until they changed the conditions).


Did you read own sentences? Horthy was a governor of a state, but was not he politician? He had many power, not a puppet like nowadays Presidents of Rebublic of Hungary. Those elections were opened in rural areas, where the Gendarmeries hit the peasant which vote to "bad" candidate. Did you say multiple parties? Horthy pursuited the real opponent of him. That was a dictatorship what serve the power of the narrow elit.





I have posted several times and admitted several times that genetically we have composite origin. How many times do I need to repeat it?

Till you can understand it and don't write offense post.




Closer due to our historic influence.
And nobody claims that our average culture is closer to Turks, religion played a big role in this too. But we have parts in our culture that our neigbours do not.

It's not true. Our eastern and southern neighbour have more Asian cultural heritage. It is absolutely not unique Hungarian heritage.







Kodály Zoltán :
We actually have two mother tongues,one is the spoken language of Finno-Ugric origin, and the other is the language of our music, which is the westernmost branch of a great Asian musical culture extending from China through Middle Asia to our area."


I hear lot of Hungarian, Slavic, South-German, Central-Asian, Middle-Eastern folk music. The Balkanics and the Russians have Asian influence in their music and dance. It is not an unique Hungarian cultural heritage. The elit forced the misbelief about our veeeery-veeeery different genes and culture when they wanted describe us as superior Herrenvolk over the dirty peasant Slavs and Germans. Side by side the German, Slav and Romance romanticists had created own Herrenvolk ideas in the 19th. We must step toward.


And what do you think about Magna Hungaria? There are four out of seven similar tribal names with the Bashkirs of Bashkortostan.

Bashkiria have been eastern from the Upper-Volga region what was the ancient homeland of the Finno-Proto-Hungarians. Whose were not really Hungarians rather an etnic group what become the overlord elit of many mixed steppe groups. Some of that Finno-Proto-Hungarians had started to go eastward and they settled in Bashkiria. Some of them whose had started to go far earlier eastward had arrived the Ob river and strongly mixed with the local Asian tribes, they have becomen the Ob-Ugrians. Note: we are speaking about small clans and families, tiny ethnic groups whats wandered in a absolutely underpopulated region like as nowadays Alaska.

A group what had started to move southward had becomen the elit of many steppe people (Scythians, Sarmatians, Turkic). With the Khazar newcomers in the Pontic steppe in the 9th century they had becomen Árpád's Ancient Hungarians, later in the Carpathian-Basin with many Slavic, Avar, Romance, Germanic inhabitants they had evolved to the Medieval Hungarians. What latest with many newer Slavic, Turkic, Romance and Germanic immigrtants have evolved to us modern Hungarians.


This woman would be a good sample, a good compostie of Finnic, Turkic and Caucasian-Mediterranean root to show how looked like a Ancient Hungarian noble(wo)man. She is not attractive for me with her big nose slanting eye and dog-like face. She looks so East-European with my contemporary Hungarian eyes. But some of our Árpádian ancestors looked like she.

http://www.banzaj.pl/pictures/kultura/film/aktorzy/Agata_Buzek/agata_buzek_2.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2Cjf4ExeSRM/TvX7le66ZhI/AAAAAAAABic/rJfHl_5iZdo/s1600/agata+buzek2.jpg

http://theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69749

[Szegedist]

Irish don't look those real Germanic Englishmen in the East-Coast of Britain.
What is real English what is fake English? Why do you try to cause division, I know your kind, that insults Transylvanian Hungarians by calling them half Romanian gypsies and not real Hungarians, that insults Csángós by calling them gypsies.
My Csángó friend visited smaller Hungary, he was called a gypsy for speaking a Csángó dialect, probably one of yours, no? And this is not isolated case just for him, and it did not just happen once.





Is it important or not? Where is the border? Who does the line trace? The Gypsys have South-Indian admixture. Did you see ever a picture about those people? They are somewhere between Negros and Australian Aboriginals. Good luck for a half-caste Gypsy lady! Your children really will have to do with Árpád's Hungairans. :picard1:
Sorry that I identify as Hungarian and not Slav, Germanic or Gypsy.




Did you read own sentences? Horthy was a governor of a state, but was not he politician? He had many power, not a puppet like nowadays Presidents of Rebublic of Hungary. Those elections were opened in rural areas, where the Gendarmeries hit the peasant which vote to "bad" candidate. Did you say multiple parties? Horthy pursuited the real opponent of him. That was a dictatorship what serve the power of the narrow elit.
It was still different from the one party state Gömbös Gyula proposed. Horthy also passed no laws.



ITill you can understand it and don't write offense post.
Sorry that I identify as Hungarian and not Slav, Germanic or Gypsy.
To me, Hungarians are a nation, and not simply brainwashed Slovaks. :picard1:





It's not true. Our eastern and southern neighbour have more Asian cultural heritage. It is absolutely not unique Hungarian heritage.
:picard1:
Do Slavs also have Turul bird? (this is just one tiny example, but it proves the idiocy of this statement)






The elit forced the misbelief about our veeeery-veeeery different genes and culture when they wanted describe us as superior Herrenvolk over the dirty peasant Slavs and Germans. Side by side the German, Slav and Romance romanticists had created own Herrenvolk ideas in the 19th. We must step toward.
You are right, our new elite should say we are just brainwashed Slavs.

[Sky earth]

The Magyars were and are Finno-Ugrians. There is no doubt about their Finno-Ugric origin. It is proven by scholars, academics and historians just as it is proven that proto Bulgars were Turkic. The problem is that the ancient Magyars were culturally assimilated into the Turko-Mongol steppe warrior culture when they mixed with the Bulgars and formed the Onogurian tribe. That's also the reason why the Hungarians want to be rather related with Turkics than with Finno-Ugrians. I bet that the first Magyars were originally peacefull reindeer herders and fisher tribes like the Khanty untill they adopted the steppe culture of Turkic people

[Hoca]

HUNgarian

[Szegedist]

The Magyars were and are Finno-Ugrians. There is no doubt about their Finno-Ugric origin. It is proven by scholars, academics and historians just as it is proven that proto Bulgars were Turkic. The problem is that the ancient Magyars were culturally assimilated into the Turko-Mongol steppe warrior culture when they mixed with the Bulgars and formed the Onogurian tribe. That's also the reason why the Hungarians want to be rather related with Turkics than with Finno-Ugrians. I bet that the first Magyars were originally peacefull reindeer herders and fisher tribes like the Khanty untill they adopted the steppe culture of Turkic people

Linguistic origin =/= ethnocultural origin.

[Austo]

The Magyars were and are Finno-Ugrians. There is no doubt about their Finno-Ugric origin. It is proven by scholars, academics and historians just as it is proven that proto Bulgars were Turkic. The problem is that the ancient Magyars were culturally assimilated into the Turko-Mongol steppe warrior culture when they mixed with the Bulgars and formed the Onogurian tribe. That's also the reason why the Hungarians want to be rather related with Turkics than with Finno-Ugrians. I bet that the first Magyars were originally peacefull reindeer herders and fisher tribes like the Khanty untill they adopted the steppe culture of Turkic people

Most Hungarians today have nothing in common with old magyars, only the language. And if you think you are the "Brothers" of the Turks then just look in the mirror.

[Sky earth]

Linguistic origin =/= ethnocultural origin.


Magyars are culturally more related with Austrians and Slavs than with Turkic peoples today. Of course when you like to be more related with Turks than with Austrians and Slavs I have no problem with it. I like Hungarians because of our common past and our past steppe culture;)

[Hoca]

Magyars are culturally more related with Austrians and Slavs than with Turkic peoples today. Of course when you like to be more related with Turks than with Austrians and Slavs I have no problem with it. I like Hungarians because of our common past and our past steppe culture;)
Why does blood matter to you so much? Are you a nazi? :D

[Sky earth]

Why does blood matter to you so much? Are you a nazi? :D


Where did I say that blood matters? I just said that Hungarians are culturally closer to Austrians and Slavs which is true. Sorry that I hurt your Turanic dreams:rolleyes:

[Szegedist]

Hungarians brought their Asian culture into Central Europe, which got Europanized, especially with Christianisation, and was influenced by Germanic, Slavic people.

The same thing happened to Turks, they brought Turkic culture into Anatolia, which was Islamified and influenced by their neigbours.

Since most Turkic people adopted Islam, while Hungarians adopted Christianity, this has caused historic and cultural differences.

This is simply a fact of life, and has happened everywhere.

[Onur]

Hungarians brought their Asian culture into Central Europe, which got Europanized, especially with Christianisation, and was influenced by Germanic, Slavic people.

The same thing happened to Turks, they brought Turkic culture into Anatolia, which was Islamified and influenced by their neigbours.

Since most Turkic people adopted Islam, while Hungarians adopted Christianity, this has caused historic and cultural differences.

This is simply a fact of life, and has happened everywhere.
This is a short but probably the best explanation to all the so-called euro-centrists and turanists about their cultural and genealogical claims.

[AseNa]

Long Live Magyar-Török Testvériség!!

[Szegedist]

This is a short but probably the best explanation to all the so-called euro-centrists and turanists about their cultural and genealogical claims.

It is true, that culturally we are closer to our neigbours than to Turks, the same applies for Turks being closer to their neigbours than us.

But that does not mean we are Slavo-Germanics, or that Turks are Iranian-Greek-Balkan.
Slovakia for example has quite a similar culture to Hungary, mainly due to them living with us for over a milenia, however this does not change the fact that I do not see them as brothers and that I dislike them.
You could probably say similar about Turks and Armenians.


When I speak to anti-Turanist Turks, they claim that Hungarians are not "true" Turanians while Turks are, it is nonsense.
I believe that there is no such thing as "real/true Turanian culture" anymore, not even in Central Asia, Siberia, most of which are no longer steppe nomads, and had Russian influence.

What I do however believe in is Turanian heritage, past and origin. That is what we have in common, despite going off on our separate ways.

The Chuvash, Hungarians, Gagauz, some Tatars& other groups are Christian, Turks, Uyghurs, Azeris, Kazakhs are Muslim (although the Turkic people are quite secular when compared to Arabs, Iranians, etc). However religion doesn't seem to get in the way too much anymore.

I see no reason why we can't have friendly relations and co-operation.
We have quite a few similarities, and many aspects of our pre Christian/Muslim life have remained in our subconscious, just not that obvious to foreigners.

For us, friendship and alliances with most European countries are becoming less and less beneficial by the day, most of our neigbours are also out of question, so it is time for us to rethink our strategy and orientation, and be proud of our ancient roots. It is also important to our national identity, consciousness and strength.

We cannot let ourselves think that we are Westeners, Slavo-Germanics with a different language. This will only lead to a weak Eurocentric identity, and this will lead to the death of our nation, and we will drown in a sea of Slavs, the last nail in the coffin for the history of Hungarians.

Instead we need to cherish our roots, and the uniqueness of our language and origin when compared to other Europeans, this distinction will allow us to preserve ourselves much better, to remind us who we are, and keep us going like it did for the past millennium.

[Onur]

We cannot let ourselves think that we are Westeners, Slavo-Germanics with a different language. This will only lead to a weak Eurocentric identity, and this will lead to the death of our nation, and we will drown in a sea of Slavs, the last nail in the coffin for the history of Hungarians.
I think some of you Hungarians are focusing that slavo-germanic propaganda more than necessary.

I mean, what matters if you have sea of slavs around you? These people had no political role in the history of the region, no state-building or governing culture and generally no importance throughout history. They are poor shepherds and some peasants, always ruled by foreign powers and lived under their subjugation. They shouldn't be able to pose any threat to anyone as they have no capability for it, they never had that throughout history.

[Proto-Shaman]

Dr. László Rásonyi: "The papas of Hungarians are Turks, and the mamas are Finno-Ugrians"

[Lena]

I mean, what matters if you have sea of slavs around you?
...They are poor shepherds and some peasants...

LOL! Onur :D you really got carried away...

[Dasr]

Hello fellow hungarians!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Corvus]

Hello fellow hungarians!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm, so are you wannabe Hungarian or is just your profile misleading :D

[Dasr]

Hmm, so are you wannabe Hungarian or is just your profile misleading :D
Man if someone is wannabehungarian its you if you bothered too look at my family pictures youll see that they are typical magyar

[Corvus]

Man if someone is wannabehungarian its you if you bothered too look at my family pictures youll see that they are typical magyar

Ok so you should change your profile :)

[Austo]

Man if someone is wannabehungarian its you if you bothered too look at my family pictures youll see that they are typical magyar

You dont look hungarian to me.

[Dasr]

You dont look hungarian to me.
have u been alot in Hungary? My father looks hungarian My mother looks swedish I look like a mix of the two its as simple as that, but I doubt you have been there much, what do I look then? If would have been to Sweden you would have known that NO ONE looks like me there

[Austo]

have u been alot in Hungary? My father looks hungarian My mother looks swedish I look like a mix of the two its as simple as that, but I doubt you have been there much, what do I look then? If would have been to Sweden you would have known that NO ONE looks like me there

Yes, a couple of times. :)

British you look to me.

[Géza]

Man if someone is wannabehungarian its you if you bothered too look at my family pictures youll see that they are typical magyar

What does it mean typical "Magyar"? The curved hair is typical not Hungarian f.e. We Mongolians have straight hair. "Szögegyenes haj" Nail-like straight hair we use to say.


Wannabe Hungarian category exists: he is Alexander Horsch, the Ossie-Turanist. :picard1:

J-V4sD-C9Ps

[Dasr]

british like who?

[Dasr]

What does it mean typical "Magyar"? The curved hair is typical not Hungarian f.e. We Mongolians have straight hair. "Szögegyenes haj" Nail-like straight hair we use to say.


Wannabe Hungarian category exists: he is Alexander Horsch, the Ossie-Turanist. :picard1:

J-V4sD-C9Ps

I didnt say I looked typical hungarian I said my fathers family look typical hungarian, but the hair is most probably jewish

[Corvus]

What does it mean typical "Magyar"? The curved hair is typical not Hungarian f.e. We Mongolians have straight hair. "Szögegyenes haj" Nail-like straight hair we use to say.


Wannabe Hungarian category exists: he is Alexander Horsch, the Ossie-Turanist. :picard1:

J-V4sD-C9Ps

LOL, this man takes it very seriously :D

[Dasr]

well maybe Im wrong maybe they look kind of jewish after all http://www.centropa.org/thumbs/1102261824423589.jpg.thumb_300x250.jpg

[Géza]

But that does not mean we are Slavo-Germanics, or that Turks are Iranian-Greek-Balkan.
Slovakia for example has quite a similar culture to Hungary, mainly due to them living with us for over a milenia, however this does not change the fact that I do not see them as brothers and that I dislike them.
You could probably say similar about Turks and Armenians.

It means we are Slavo-Germano-Romance. F.e. Vona Gábor, the grandchild of Attila has Slovak and Italian root. He is a descendant of Roman Legionaries too.

http://www.erminestreetguard.co.uk/MARLE%20COLUMN.jpg



For us, friendship and alliances with most European countries are becoming less and less beneficial by the day, most of our neigbours are also out of question, so it is time for us to rethink our strategy and orientation, and be proud of our ancient roots. It is also important to our national identity, consciousness and strength.

There don't less befeficial the European countires, but the government of the EU. The centuries have showed our country is incapable for living. Our country is a spawn of the play of the Superpowers. If the Germans or Russians could domineted in the 20th century we would been melted to German or Russian people.




We cannot let ourselves think that we are Westeners, Slavo-Germanics with a different language. This will only lead to a weak Eurocentric identity, and this will lead to the death of our nation, and we will drown in a sea of Slavs, the last nail in the coffin for the history of Hungarians.

But this is still an European language, not an Asian. This scenes like as the Sea of Slavs and other "horror" stories are 19th centurians phrases by romanticists. The cold reality is we are partially Slavs. And Germans. And Balkanics! Eeeek! :eek:


Instead we need to cherish our roots, and the uniqueness of our language and origin when compared to other Europeans, this distinction will allow us to preserve ourselves much better, to remind us who we are, and keep us going like it did for the past millennium.

Basks and Finns have their unique non-IE languages. We are not at all "special".

[Géza]

but the hair is most probably jewish

I wanted not to speak, but yes, people use to consider this.



well maybe Im wrong maybe they look kind of jewish after all


This picture is a very bad to see anything. But the Centropa is a Jewish site, I have known it.

[Dasr]

http://www.centropa.org/thumbs/1102152253016651.jpg.thumb_300x250.jpg
http://www.centropa.org/bilder/cache/1102200404511781.jpg

[Géza]

http://www.centropa.org/thumbs/1102152253016651.jpg.thumb_300x250.jpg
http://www.centropa.org/bilder/cache/1102200404511781.jpg

At the higher one the lady on up and right and the lady on down and left look foreign. The others look like us.

At the lower picture the angle is too bad to see anything about their faces.

[Dasr]

and what about my father to the right? http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/295427_558971134116075_1563609385_n.jpg

[heygum]

At the higher one the lady on up and right and the lady on down and left look foreign. The others look like us.


You haven't been in Budapest.



At the lower picture the angle is too bad to see anything about their faces.


Looks like my mother.

[Géza]

and what about my father to the right? http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/295427_558971134116075_1563609385_n.jpg


This picture is not enough good to say anything. Eyeglasses, bad angle, poor quality picture from the 80s.


You haven't been in Budapest.

You don't know who is the Ethnic Hungarian and who is the ethnic citizen with other ancestry. Budapest is full of Turks, Arabs, Tropical-Africans like as the other greatest European cities. :picard1:



lol you are real turk-hater

LOL, you are a true Hungarian-hater. A hater of the democracy and the otherone's opinion.

[Szegedist]

....

Géza maybe you should move to Pozsony, sorry I mean Bratislava (out of respects to our Slovak brothers), or Temesvár, oops I meant Timișoara (out of respect to Romanian brothers), where you can embrace your Slavic and Balkan root, and maybe tell your Balkanic&Slavic brothers about how evil Turanists are and how stupid anti Trianon irredentists are :)

And don't forget to give my greetings to Slovenská pospolitosť or Noua Dreaptă, and maybe you join their monthly burning of the Hungarian flag and smearing sh*t on Hungarian statues, just dont forget about your Slavo-Balkanic roots. :) Ever thought about learning a Slavic language so you can speak the language of your ancestors? :rofl: :picard1: :rolleyes:

[Géza]

Szegedist maybe you should move to Peking, sorry I mean Beijing (out of respects to our Chinese brothers), or Constantinople, oops I meant Istanbul (out of respect to Turkish brothers), where you can embrace your Middle-Eastern and Far-Eastern root, and maybe tell your Mongolian&Turkish brothers about how evil non-Turanists are and how stupid Turanist anti-Hungarian are :)

And don't forget to give my greetings to the Communist Party of China or Erdogan, and maybe you join their monthly burning of the Hungarian/British/German/Russian flag and smearing sh*t on random European statues, just dont forget about your Mongolo-Turkic roots. :) Ever thought about learning a Chinese language so you can speak the language of your ancestors? :rofl: :picard1: :rolleyes:

Fix'd.

When you have becomen lacked of arguments, you just can attack of my person. This is the real face of Turanists.

(I am not against Turkish or Chinese or other Asian members, I just parodize my idiot Hungarian brother's post.)

[Lena]

have u been alot in Hungary?

I may not be an expert on this topic since I've been in Hungary maybe ~100 times which is in-sufficient to form some opinion on their looks, however, here, just for the sake of argument, pic of predominantly Hungarian townlette dwellers in Vojvodina. I can tell exactly who is who, who is of a mixed origin even to guesstimate % of a different ethnic composite in them. How about you?

http://www.kanjizatourism.org.rs/files/DSC08024.JPG?1280822656

[Szegedist]

Fix'd.

When you have becomen lacked of arguments, you just can attack of my person. This is the real face of Turanists.

(I am not against Turkish or Chinese or other Asian members, I just parodize my idiot Hungarian brother's post.)


I am Hungarian, we Hungarians live here in the Carpathian Basin.

Unlike you, I don't claim to be Turkish, Chinese(wtf?). You on the other hand with your inferiority complex claim to be a Slavo-Balkanic with a nonexistent identity speaking a language evil Hungarians imposed on your Slavic ancestors.

I myself feel Hungarian first, you are some kind of wanabee Dacian-Viking-Slav warrior obsessed with haplogroups and genes.

It is exactly your sort of idiots that calls Transylvanian Hungarians "half Romanians", and calls Csángós gypsies.
Heck, some of your kind even hate the Hungarians from Slovakia and Serbia, because they are not "real Hungarians" to you.

You have already expressed your views towards territorial revision, and we know why, because you don't want "half Serbs", "half Romanians", and "half Slovaks" "polluting" your gene pool :rofl:

[Géza]

I am Hungarian, we Hungarians live here in the Carpathian Basin.

Unlike you, I don't claim to be Turkish, Chinese(wtf?). You on the other hand with your inferiority complex claim to be a Slavo-Balkanic with a nonexistent identity speaking a language evil Hungarians imposed on your Slavic ancestors.

I myself feel Hungarian first, you are some kind of wanabee Dacian-Viking-Slav warrior obsessed with haplogroups and genes.

It is exactly your sort of idiots that calls Transylvanian Hungarians "half Romanians", and calls Csángós gypsies.
Heck, some of your kind even hate the Hungarians from Slovakia and Serbia, because they are not "real Hungarians" to you.



You cannot understand we have very complex ancestry. We are not Turks. We have assimilated some Turkic ethnic groups. Transylvanian Hungarans and the rest Transylvanian German are closer to Romanians. Nobody called Csangó people as Gypsy. Side by side the look very Romanians like as their Music and Folk costume. I saw Csangó's in real life, contrast to you internet-Turanist.


You have already expressed your views towards territorial revision, and we know why, because you don't want "half Serbs", "half Romanians", and "half Slovaks" polluting your gene pool :rofl:

This unsubstansiated sentence show your functional illiteracy. Nobody spoke about Hungarian gene pool. I have written and I am writting we have a common gene pool with our neighbourhood. I have not views about revision. The borders are past in an united European Unio or an united Russian Eurasian Unio too.

You are lacking of any valid arguments, hence you are insulting me. Stop this!

[evon]

Magyars have nothing to do with Slavs, Troll. Genetic evidence has linked early Magyars eastward to the Bashkirs as well to the Ujghurs, living in East-Eurasia around the town of Ürümqi (today in China, East Turkestan). The names of several Magyar tribes are of Oghur origin which may prove that Oghur tribes also joined to the Magyars. Don't tackle with me... ;)

Hungarians are probably 99% like their surrounding populations (I have a few Hungarian based genetic cousins, they are part Roma as i understand it, and the Roma seem to have contributed to the general Hungarian genepool), check an IBD segment comparison of their matches beyond the Volga River with those of Romanians (note that Hungarians have more volga based matches ect due to higher sample size):

Hungarians:
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2900/huno.jpg

Romanians:
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/4923/romwj.jpg

Data taken from Eurogenes IBD analysis, i posted on it here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1279183&postcount=1848), page 185 in this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19121&page=185) thread.

My guess is that any pre-historical DNA relating to atilla or whatnot will be at 1% or below, and The classical Huns are also not proven to be Turkic speaking, that is just one of many theories, and also Turkic speaking does not equal a biological tie between all turkic speaking peoples today, there is not evidence for that..

[Szegedist]

You are a cancer on the internet
one page ago

A hater of the democracy and the otherone's opinion.
:bored:


who dishonour our folk. It is you know dishonours us by spreading lies about us being Slavs or Romanians. And many other things too.



You cannot understand we have very complex ancestry.
Oh I can understand this very well, and said so several times.
But so what you want Géza? For our goverment to adopt multiculturalist multiracial point of view? For us to say that there is no Hungarian culture, and it is only what we stole from Slavs or Romanians?


We are not Turks. We have assimilated some Turkic ethnic groups.
I never claimed that we are Turks.


Transylvanian Hungarans and the rest Transylvanian German are closer to Romanians. Nobody called Csangó people as Gypsy. Side by side the look very Romanians like as their Music and Folk costume. I saw Csangó's in real life, contrast to you internet-Turanist.

Transylvanian Hungarians are certainly more Hungarian than Slavic wanabees and many other Hungarians from today's Hungary.



This unsubstansiated sentence show your functional illiteracy. Nobody spoke about Hungarian gene pool. I have written and I am writting we have a common gene pool with our neighbourhood. I have not views about revision. The borders are past in an united European Unio or an united Russian Eurasian Unio too.

Yes and we share a lot (something like 96-98%) of our genetics with monkeys..
You are too obsessed with haplogroups.
You also complained about accepting "Slovak admixture" on some other thread.


You are lacking of any valid arguments, hence you are insulting me. Stop this!
Sorry I don't mean to offend your Slavo-Balkanic root :(

[heygum]

Hungarians are probably 99% like their surrounding populations (I have a few Hungarian based genetic cousins, they are part Roma as i understand it, and the Roma seem to have contributed to the general Hungarian genepool), check an IBD segment comparison of their matches beyond the Volga River with those of Romanians (note that Hungarians have more volga based matches ect due to higher sample size):

Hungarians:
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2900/huno.jpg

Romanians:
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/4923/romwj.jpg

Data taken from Eurogenes IBD analysis, i posted on it here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1279183&postcount=1848), page 185 in this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19121&page=185) thread.

My guess is that any pre-historical DNA relating to atilla or whatnot will be at 1% or below, and The classical Huns are also not proven to be Turkic speaking, that is just one of many theories, and also Turkic speaking does not equal a biological tie between all turkic speaking peoples today, there is not evidence for that..
Are there similar maps for other European countries?

[evon]

Are there similar maps for other European countries?

I made these and a few others using the data, some other members also made various maps based on the same dataset, just check the thread posts from page 185 onwards..

[Onur]

This is a chronicle named "De Administrando Imperio (On the Governance of the Empire)" written by the 10th-century Eastern Roman Emperor Constantine VII.;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_administrando_imperio

The emperor is talking about the origin of Hungarians, where they lived before coming into Pannonia, their leader Arpad and their relations with their neighbors.

About the terminology he used in the chronicle and what it means today;
Turks = All the Hungarian tribes who settled in Pannonia
Turkey = The country of the Hungarians
Chazars, Chazaria = Khazars, Khazar empire
Chagan = Khan, Khagan
Kabaroi = Kabars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabar)

http://imageshack.us/a/img27/6959/clipboard01ox.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img18/1910/clipboard02max.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img832/2752/clipboard03ey.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img836/892/clipboard04v.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img17/9655/clipboard05e.png



And he is talking about the country of Slavs (present day Czech, Slovakia, part of Hungary, Poland and Germany), who has been recently christianized by the Cyril&Methodious back then;
http://imageshack.us/a/img19/8683/clipboard06o.png


As you can read here, Hungarians utterly destroyed their country back in 10th century and the remaining survivors fled to neighboring places.

[evon]

As you can read here, Hungarians utterly destroyed their country back in 10th century and the remaining survivors fled to neighboring places

Firstly, i would advice you to never take historical documents at face value as you do, its not good academic practice, you also did it with texts on Timur and his life. The main reason you should be very wary when dealing with such texts is that they are not subject to the same laws of history and strict rules of academia (the way to write history as we know it was not "invented" yet, the only one who comes close did not live for another 3-400 years Ibn Khaldun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun)), most historical records and symbols (even statues and paintings, just look at the Roman and Greek statues, which often are not subject to realism, but show an idealized face and body rather then the men whom they are suppose to show) are subject to the reality in which they were created, and this makes it very difficult when dealing with them, unless you have extensive training and education on the subject matter you will in all likelihood only fall into the many fall-traps along the way, such as mis historical inaccuracies, fail to locate symbols and their relation to the wider text and the era in which they were written and so on...

That being said, we know from DNA that there has not been such a complete change in population, if it had taken place it would have been easy to spot in the data we have at hand, what the data show us is that Hungarians are just like their neighbours, with maybe a small input from some age of past, but today that would be less then 1% from what ive seen, and we dont know from where it came, just that its eastern and found in YDNA alone..

On the reading of old texts i would advice you to check out this man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadamer), he is a by far the best source for understanding some of the main problems with historical texts.

[Pallantides]

Dodecad v3: K=12 averages for Hungarians(N=20, Behar.)

37% West European
26.4% East European
25.4% Mediterranean
8.4% West Asian
1.1% Southwest Asian
0.6% Northeast Asian
0.6% South Asian
0.3% Southeast Asian
0.2% Northwest African
0% Neo African
0% East African
0% Palaeo African


I think it's pretty clear that Hungarians are predominantly Central Europeans and their Asian influence is rather minor.

[Dacul]

Dodecad v3: K=12 averages for Hungarians(N=20, Behar.)

37% West European
26.4% East European
25.4% Mediterranean
8.4% West Asian
1.1% Southwest Asian
0.6% Northeast Asian
0.6% South Asian
0.3% Southeast Asian
0.2% Northwest African
0% Neo African
0% East African
0% Palaeo African


I think it's pretty clear that Hungarians are predominantly Central Europeans and their Asian influence is rather minor.

They are mostly scandos,Pallantides,as I told in the past also.
(West european admixture is coming from Scandinavia,from what I remember:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Northwest-European-admixture.gif
From visigoths,gepids etc they also have slavic admixture and some med admixture .
I would be curious to see the autosomal tests of people from North Transylvania,but I saw in Cluj county are a lot of paternal lines from E-V13 so it seems these people are rather from thraco-dacians and from slavs,also,since I saw a lot of R1A (mostly R1A,anyway).

As for hungarians,they rather seems nordish europeans,look,they got 62% NW european+NE european admixture summed.
Central europeans have more med admixture,than 25% (from what I remember Drogin got more than 25% med admixture).

[Pallantides]

The 'West European' component appear rather North Western as it peaks in Norwegians and Irish

Norwegians 68.3%
Irish 67.9% (same as my score)
Cornwall 65.8%
British 65.4%
Swedes 65.2%
Kent 63.8%
Dutch 61%
Orcadians 56.1%
Argyll 55.6%
Germans 52.7%
French 52.1%
Finns 50.4%

[ThatGirlKatarina]

Hungarians are not Turks. They do not speak Turkic language, they do not look like Turks, they gennetically cluster with Slavs (acctually right in middle of us :P)...
And they have nothing to do with Odin

I have pictures, albeit old black and white pictures but pictures none-the-less, of family members who immigrated straight from Hungary and they look almost exactly the same as my family members who came from Slovakia. They were definitely not Turkish.

So we can take that for what it's worth anyway. :)

[evon]

Dodecad v3: K=12 averages for Hungarians(N=20, Behar.)

37% West European
26.4% East European
25.4% Mediterranean
8.4% West Asian
1.1% Southwest Asian
0.6% Northeast Asian
0.6% South Asian
0.3% Southeast Asian
0.2% Northwest African
0% Neo African
0% East African
0% Palaeo African


I think it's pretty clear that Hungarians are predominantly Central Europeans and their Asian influence is rather minor.

I think if you compare the average Hungarian results with the surrounding populations also, it will show how similar they are to eachother...

[Dasr]

What does it mean typical "Magyar"? The curved hair is typical not Hungarian f.e. We Mongolians have straight hair. "Szögegyenes haj" Nail-like straight hair we use to say.


Wannabe Hungarian category exists: he is Alexander Horsch, the Ossie-Turanist. :picard1:

J-V4sD-C9Ps
so you are mongoloid hungarian would love to see photos you have epicanthic folds?

[Sky earth]

I was surprised when I heard that even Iranian elements played a role in the ethnogenesis of Hungarians
Has someone of you heard about the "Jassic people"? They were realted to the Ossetians and they are descendants of the
Sarmatian Alanic tribes who settled in the medieval Kingdom of Hungary during the 13th century together with the Turkic Cumanians. Of course they were also "Magyarized" like the Cumanians and speak a Finno-ugric language today but it's really interesting to know that their population consists about 85000 peoples

[Proto-Shaman]

Bashkirs at congress of Hungarians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP_OEZ5H3xo

[Proto-Shaman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC71AS-ut_M

[Proto-Shaman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2ff2mGsUw