Khazar origin of the European jews has been confirmed by a study in John Hopkins university

[Onur]

A major genetic study of Ashkenazim was led by Johns Hopkins geneticist Eran Israeli-Elhaik in 2012. It concentrates on the compelling genetic evidence that eastern European Jewry's roots are not just in the Mid-East but, perhaps even more so, in the Caucasus, the mountainous heartland of ancient Khazaria.

Elhaik says that because of dissatisfaction with current theory he and others are forced to look again at the possibility that the Mid-East and Semitic genes present in eastern European Jewry may primarily have come from the east. His team is compelled to research this possibility because genetic testing of Ashkenazim continues to reveal a high percentage of genes particular only to the relatively isolated, mountainous region of the Caucasus. Having completed a thorough genetic study of Ashkenazim worldwide, he is launching an even more extensive analysis in his "Khazar DNA Project," specializing in testing Jews from the region of Khazaria itself.

Here are some of Dr. Elhaik's conclusions as a result of his genetic study of Ashkenazim:

Early German historians bridged the historical gap simply by linking modern Jews directly to the ancient Judeans (Figure 1); a paradigm that was quickly embedded in medical science and crystallized as a narrative. Many have challenged this narrative (Koestler 1976; Straten 2007), mainly by showing that a sole Judean ancestry cannot account for the vast population of Eastern European Jews in the beginning of the 20th century without the major contribution of Judaized Khazars and by demonstrating that it is in conflict with anthropological, historical, and genetic evidence (Dinur 1961; Patai and Patai 1975; Baron 1993).

…the question of European Jewish ancestry remained debated mainly between the supporters of the Rhineland and Khazarian Hypotheses. The recent availability of genomic data of Caucasus populations (Behar et al. 2010) allowed testing the Khazarian Hypothesis for the first time and prompted us to contrast the Rhineland and Khazarian Hypotheses. To evaluate the two hypotheses, we carried out a series of comparative analyses between European Jews and surrogate Khazarian and Judean populations posing the same question each time: are Eastern and Central European Jews genetically closer to Caucasus or Middle Eastern populations?

Our PC, biogeographical estimation, admixture, IBD, ASD, and uniparental analyses were consistent in depicting a Caucasus ancestry for European Jews. Our first analyses revealed tight genetic relationship of European Jews and Caucasus populations and pinpointed the biogeographical origin of European Jews to the south of Khazaria (Figures 3,4). Our later analyses yielded a complex multi-ethnical ancestry with a slightly dominant Near Eastern-Caucasus ancestry, large Southern European and Middle Eastern ancestries, and a minor Eastern European contribution…

We show that the Khazarian Hypothesis offers a comprehensive explanation to the results… By contrast, the Rhineland Hypothesis could not explain the large Caucasus component in European Jews, which is rare in Non-Caucasus populations (Figure 5) and the large IBD regions shared between European Jews and Caucasus populations attesting to their common origins. A major difficulty with the Rhineland Hypothesis, in addition to the lack of historical and anthropological evidence to the multi-migration waves from Palestine to Europe (Straten 2003; Sand 2009), is to explain the vast population expansion of Eastern European Jews from 50 thousand (15th century) to 8 million (20th century). This growth could not possibly be the product of natural population expansion (Koestler 1976; Straten 2007), particularly one subjected to severe economic restrictions, slavery, assimilation, the Black Death and other plagues, forced and voluntary conversions, persecutions, kidnappings, rapes, exiles, wars, massacres, and pogroms (Koestler 1976; Sand 2009). Such an unnatural growth rate (1.7-2% annually) over half a millennia, affecting only Jews residing in Eastern Europe is commonly explained by a miracle (Atzmon et al. 2010). Unfortunately, this divine intervention explanation poses a new kind of problem - it is not science. Our findings reject the Rhineland Hypothesis and uphold the thesis that Eastern European Jews are Judeo-Khazars in origin. Further studies are necessary to confirm the magnitude of the Khazars demographic contribution to the demographic presence of Jews in Europe (Polak 1951; Dinur 1961; Koestler 1976; Baron 1993; Brook 2006).

The remarkable close proximity of European Jews and populations residing on the opposite ends of ancient Khazaria, such as Armenians, Georgians, Azerbaijani Jews, and Druze (Figures 3, S2-3, 5), supports a common Near Eastern-Caucasus ancestry. These findings are not explained by the Rhineland Hypothesis and are staggering due to the uneven demographic processes these populations experienced in the past eight centuries.

Overall, the similarity between European Jews and Caucasus populations underscores the genetic continuity that exists among Eurasian Jewish and non-Jewish Caucasus populations…Our findings support a large-scale conversion scenario that influenced the majority of the population.

Finally, our findings confirm both oral narratives and the canonical Jewish literature describing the Khazar’s conversion to Judaism and the Judeo-Khazarian ancestry of European Jews (e.g., “Sefer ha-Ittim” by Rabbi Jehudah ben Barzillai [1100] , “Sefer ha-Kabbalah” by Abraham ben Daud [1161 CE], and “The Khazars” by Rabbi Jehudah Halevi [1140 CE]) (Polak 1951; Koestler 1976). We emphasize that we do not intend to cast doubt on Behar’s et al. (2010). and Atzmon et al.’s (2010) remarkable findings, but rather propose a comprehensive interpretation that explains the patterns they observed in whole genome data, those reported in the literature for uniparental data, and those observed here using both types of data. The point in these studies is that European Jews had a single Middle Eastern origin [that] is incomplete as neither study tested the Khazarian Hypothesis, to the extent done here.

Our findings support the Khazarian Hypothesis depicting a large Caucasus ancestry along with Southern European, Middle Eastern, and Eastern European ancestries, in agreement with recent studies and oral and written traditions. We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaized Khazars, Greco-Romans and Mesopotamian Jews, and Judeans and that their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan.

The graphs in the study shows that the European Jews shows closer DNA similarity with Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis and Turks instead of middle-eastern jews.


You can read full study here;

http://eelhaik.aravindachakravartilab.org/ArticlesPDFs/MissingLink2012.pdf

[Vesuvian Sky]

I think a significant portion of Ashkenazi were actually from Khazaria, but they weren't necessarily Khazars per se. What I mean is that they were probably Persian Jews who made their way into the Caucus region and then eventually incorporated into the Khazar Khanate when the actual Khazars showed up and took rule over the region. The whole story behind the Khazars converting to Judaism is that they saw the mountains Jews of the Caucuses practicing Judaism so there had to have been Jews in the region prior to Khazar arrival.


This would also explain why most Jewish Y-DNA is J1, J2, R1b and Q - all of the Middle Eastern variants. I wonder though how much of this rare, unique Caucus autosomal component though is represented in modern Ashkenazim?

[Petersburg]

Turkish fairy tales, all Khazars were slaughtered in X century. :D

[Vesuvian Sky]

Turkish fairy tales, all Khazars were slaughtered in X century. :D


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Svatoslav_titularnik.png

[Petersburg]

Do Jews have Turanic origin?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Do Jews have Turanic origin?

Believe it or not, there are some Jews who are from a clade of Y-DNA M-17 that's frequent in Central Asia (see bottom right of chart):


Its more rare then frequent though.

[Prince Carlo]

Georgians and Armenians are Caucasians not Turkic nomads.

[Petersburg]

Georgians and Armenians are Caucasians not Turkic nomads.

We are all Turkic deep inside. Our ancestors were Turanic warriors from great Turanic empire. :thumb001:

[Vesuvian Sky]

We are all Turkic deep inside. Our ancestors were Turanic warriors from great Turanic empire. :thumb001:

Harja Turan!

[Insuperable]

Onur wrote on Dienekes blogspot:

BTW, I disagree with a great majority of Eran's conclusions
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/origins-of-north-african-and.html?m=1
I am just wondering what changed your mind?

I saw some criticism of his paper where a guy points that the author does
does not know basic geography and related history saying for example that Khazar empire was situated only in West Asia and as Davidski said he was treating Armenians as a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar empire and that Armenians are not even a useful Caucasian reference set.

I am still interested why Sicilians and Greeks (from islands?) and Ashkenazi Jews cluster together. Coincidence? Two-three years ago anothet Jewish scientist wrote a paper of A. Jews being southern Italian converts. I wonder what will be written in the next two years.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Onur wrote on Dienekes blogspot:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/origins-of-north-african-and.html?m=1

I saw some criticism of his paper where a guy points that the author does
does not know basic geography and related history saying for example that Khazar empire was situated only in West Asia and as Davidski said he was treating Armenians as a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar empire and that Armenians are not even a useful Caucasian reference set.

I am still interested why Sicilians and Greeks (from islands?) and Ashkenazi Jews cluster together. Coincidence? Two-three years ago anothet Jewish scientist wrote a paper of A. Jews being southern Italian converts. I wonder what will be written in the next two years.

Oh, I thought this latest study from JHU actually may have found the 'Khazar component'. I read Davidski's critique and truthfully, Assyrians, various Arab groups, and Iranians all have significant West Asian/Caucuses component. Even if there is unique genetic Caucus signature to Ashkenazim of a non-Proto-semetic origin then it would be due to local Caucus interaction rather the Turkic Khazar. I don't think any of the spreadsheets show an 'Altaic' or 'Central Asian' component for Jews of any type anyway.

But some people need a Phd/graduate thesis soooo....

[Insuperable]

Oh, I thought this latest study from JHU actually may have found the 'Khazar component'. I read Davidski's critique and truthfully, Assyrians, various Arab groups, and Iranians all have significant West Asian/Caucuses component. Even if there is unique genetic Caucus signature to Ashkenazim of a non-Proto-semetic origin then it would be due to local Caucus interaction rather the Turkic Khazar. I don't think any of the spreadsheets show an 'Altaic' or 'Central Asian' component for Jews of any type anyway.

But some people need a Phd/graduate thesis soooo....

I was reading some of the Anglojew's posts (including his signature) and I am really wondering is what he says true! At first I found them silly.
I find the fact that Sicilians, Islander Greeks (perhaps the closest thing to the ancient Greeks ) and Ashkenazi Jews (who indeed have sime minor Eastern European input) cluster together one hell of a coincidence so perhaps over 2000 years Ashkenazis were preserved when compared to negrified and further Arabized Levantines as AJ claims.
Then when considering Ashkenazi it is perplexing the fact that Sephardi (who have nothing to do with the Khazar hypothesis) are very similar with Ashkenazis...

[Partizan]

Onur wrote on Dienekes blogspot:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/origins-of-north-african-and.html?m=1
I am just wondering what changed your mind?

As far as I know, there is another Onur who writes in Dienekes and other genetic blogs.

[Vesuvian Sky]

I was reading some of the Anglojew's posts (including his signature) and I am really wondering is what he says true! At first I found them silly.
I find the fact that Sicilians, Islander Greeks (perhaps the closest thing to the ancient Greeks ) and Ashkenazi Jews (who indeed have sime minor Eastern European input) cluster together one hell of a coincidence so perhaps over 2000 years Ashkenazis were preserved when compared to negrified and further Arabized Levantines as AJ claims.
Then when considering Ashkenazi it is perplexing the fact that Sephardi (who have nothing to do with the Khazar hypothesis) are very similar with Ashkenazis...

Khazar hypothesis is interesting to say the least, but there's not much to it to be perfectly honest. Truthfully, if Khazar ruling Turkic class left any genetic contribution to Ashkenazi then it would have been 1-6% IMO. Only that one clade of M-17 is a possible genetic legacy but even that's somewhat ambiguous (not to mention infrequent).

There are of course Turkic Jews still around:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krymchaks

I don't know if there have been any genetic studies on Krymchaks but regardless average Ashkenazi is almost certainly a "Judean refugee" just like Sephardim rather then a "Khazar Khan". Of course other components were picked up along the way but the genetic evidence mostly points towards origin in the ME, and that's regardless of phenotype.

[Onur]

Onur wrote on Dienekes blogspot:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/origins-of-north-african-and.html?m=1
I am just wondering what changed your mind?
I have no idea who the fck is that Onur in Dienekes blog. I don't know much about genetics myself. Even if i would interest with it, I wouldn't write in the Dienekes`s blog at all. Afaik, he has Turkish speaking grandparents but he claims pure hellenic origin for Greeks and for the half of all Balkanites incl. Turks. He also compares skull shapes of modern Greeks with the ancient sculptures. In short, he is an idiot.



There are of course Turkic Jews still around:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krymchaks
There is one more Turkic group who believes in judaism;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites

Karaites/Karaims speaks Turkic, close to Tatar tongue and they say that they are descendents of Khazars. They have their small communities in Poland, Lithuania, Turkey, Russia. They have recorded history in these places for 1000 years;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1160707&postcount=19

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62435&page=3

[LastManOnEarth]

A major genetic study of Ashkenazim was led by Johns Hopkins geneticist Eran Israeli-Elhaik in 2012. It concentrates on the compelling genetic evidence that eastern European Jewry's roots are not just in the Mid-East but, perhaps even more so, in the Caucasus, the mountainous heartland of ancient Khazaria.

Elhaik says that because of dissatisfaction with current theory he and others are forced to look again at the possibility that the Mid-East and Semitic genes present in eastern European Jewry may primarily have come from the east. His team is compelled to research this possibility because genetic testing of Ashkenazim continues to reveal a high percentage of genes particular only to the relatively isolated, mountainous region of the Caucasus. Having completed a thorough genetic study of Ashkenazim worldwide, he is launching an even more extensive analysis in his "Khazar DNA Project," specializing in testing Jews from the region of Khazaria itself.

Here are some of Dr. Elhaik's conclusions as a result of his genetic study of Ashkenazim:


The graphs in the study shows that the European Jews shows closer DNA similarity with Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis and Turks instead of middle-eastern jews.


You can read full study here;

http://eelhaik.aravindachakravartilab.org/ArticlesPDFs/MissingLink2012.pdf




Basically, when Justinian attacked and outlawed the Jews in Palestine in 531, it created a diaspora of survivors.

Justinian hated the Jews because of their heavy involvement with for example human sacrifice.

One major route of escape was up north to the Caucasus, where the mingled with the pre-existing culture and the so called Khazar nation was formed.

Another significant settlement was around certain lagoons in Northern Italy, which eventually lead to the the formation of the Republic of Venice, the first Jewish nation state in Europe.

When Venice collapsed in 1797, the Venetian system was transplanted into the English empire through diplomatic ties, freemasonry etc.

That is the explanation why the coronation ceremony of queen Elizabeth II for example was basically an occult kabbalistic ritual.

When we get some perspective on certain things like these it might be appropriate to re-examine ideas of "Jewish supremacy" and such.

[d3cimat3d]

Jews are too "Western" genetically to be descended from the Khazars. Jews look more like a intermediate of Syrian and some kind of Southern European, probably Italian.

http://i46.tinypic.com/29bfxqq.jpg

They have some non-Caucasoid, Asian DNA but it's very minimal, like 1-2%. I'm sure Khazars were at least 10% Asian.

[Philo]

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/ashkenazi-jews-are-probably-not-descended-from-the-khazars/
DISPROVED.
Ashkenazim and sephardim jews do have alot of anatolian though. I saw a tv show where they went inside catacombs in Jerusalem and a guy from apamea in syria was buried there. He was'nt jewish from birth but he got converted there. At the time of the roman empire, 6 million out of the 60 million people under roman rule were jews and alot of those were converts. That guy was from northern syria but many got converted in anatolia. After Judea, the places with most jews were the roman province of syria and anatolia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apamea,_Syria


Justinian hated the Jews because of their heavy involvement with for example human sacrifice.
Proof?
I actually have ALOT of proof that germanics did human sacrifice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_body
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bog_bodies

[7eleven]

Ashkenazim are not close to Caucasus people at all and those groups that are listed such as Armenians and Druze were not even a part of the Khazar empire. They were much further south, all this really shows is that Israelites were most similar to Armenians and Druze.

[Annihilus]

Y don't lie

http://*******/L_342

[Sikeliot]

I am still interested why Sicilians and Greeks (from islands?) and Ashkenazi Jews cluster together. Coincidence? Two-three years ago anothet Jewish scientist wrote a paper of A. Jews being southern Italian converts. I wonder what will be written in the next two years.


I am torn between thinking modern European Jews are southern Italian converts, and that it is a coincidence they cluster together. Because Sicilianu101 for instance got a significant couple of shared segments with Druze, and they are a group often said to be close to Jews too. Maybe both groups just have enough Levantine ancestry and a similar Mediterranean component?

If what AngloJew says is true, that modern Jews are the best representation of ancient Israelites.. since these Jews cluster with Sicilians and Greeks then it means the Jews of the Bible would have been almost genetically identical to today's Sicilians and Greeks.

[7eleven]

I am torn between thinking modern European Jews are southern Italian converts, and that it is a coincidence they cluster together. Because Sicilianu101 for instance got a significant couple of shared segments with Druze, and they are a group often said to be close to Jews too. Maybe both groups just have enough Levantine ancestry and a similar Mediterranean component?

Yeah all of those groups share a common Mediterranean/Levantine component.

[Anglojew]

A critique of the article;


This week saw the release of yet another study on the origins of European Jews (in fact, a pre-print). This one's called "The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses".

The author seems quite content that he's finally demonstrated a link between European Jews and the Khazar Empire. But has he really?

I do like the analysis presented is this paper. It's varied, thorough, and looks at Central European Jews separately from Eastern European Jews, with some interesting outcomes. But in the end, I think the author fumbled the interpretation of the results.

His mistake was treating the Armenian reference sample as a Caucasus group, and also a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar Empire. Thus, when the Jewish samples showed strong affinity to the Armenians, the author mistook this as a signal of Khazar ancestry in Jews, because the Khazar Empire included parts of the Caucasus.

But what do modern Armenians of the South Caucasus have to do with ancient Khazars of the Pontic Caspian Steppe? Not much, I'd say. Armenians aren't even a useful Caucasian reference set, in my opinion. They're better treated as an Eastern Anatolian group, due to their high affinity to Mediterranean and Middle Eastern populations.

Moreover, they show low North/East European input, and very little East Eurasian influence, which is actually the sort of stuff we'd want in a proxy for the inhabitants of the Khazar Empire in what is now Southern Russia.

All those looking for Khazar influence in Jews should be aware that the Eurasian steppes are part of the Northern world, and this has been the case for thousands of years. We know this from ancient DNA, from samples all the way from what is now Ukraine to South Siberia. This Northern world is separated from the Southern world by some mighty barriers to gene flow, like the Black Sea, Caucasus Mountains and the deserts of Central Asia (see here).

Based on my own analyses of Jewish genomes, I'd say that Ashkenazim Jews are genetically an Eastern Mediterranean group, but with various other admixtures, like Western European, Eastern European, Eastern Anatolian, and even African and East Asian. Does that mean ancestry from the Khazar Empire? Perhaps in part, but it's hard to say for sure.

So, what could be a sure signal of Khazar influence in modern Jews? The best bet is probably the R1a-Z94 carried by many Ashkenazim Levites. This marker is very common in modern Indo-Iranian and Turkic groups, so it's not difficult to imagine its presence in ancient Khazaria. The only problem is that it's also seen in Semitic groups, like Arabs. That's why it's not possible to say at the moment if the Z94 in Jews is of Semitic, Khazar or some other origin, like, for example, Persian. Someone should look into that.

By the way, as per the supervised ADMIXTURE bar graph from the study, it's interesting to see the much higher levels of “Eastern European” influence in Eastern European Jews than in Central European Jews. I suppose that’s to be expected, considering the geography, but the reason I find it interesting is that it indicates recent Slavic introgression into the Eastern European Jewish gene pool. That's because if it was older, like from Khazaria, then Central European Jews would also carry it at decent levels.


http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/khazar-origins-of-european-jews-finally.html

[7eleven]

Ashkenazim are pretty much half North Italian half Anatolian/Levantine.

[Annihilus]

So, what could be a sure signal of Khazar influence in modern Jews? The best bet is probably the R1a-Z94 carried by many Ashkenazim Levites. This marker is very common in modern Indo-Iranian and Turkic groups, so it's not difficult to imagine its presence in ancient Khazaria. The only problem is that it's also seen in Semitic groups, like Arabs. That's why it's not possible to say at the moment if the Z94 in Jews is of Semitic, Khazar or some other origin, like, for example, Persian. Someone should look into that.

They are also Z2122 below Z94, it arose some 1200 hundred years a go north of the black sea, guess where Khazaria was? So far no arabs have tested + for it.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Other thing I heard about this clade of M-17 is that yes its found among Arabs but its only like 3%. Usually, if a Y-DNA HG is part of a populations founder effect, its far more frequent (though its not always the case). Hence why Y-DNA J groups are far more dominant among Semites as they were likely always there dating back to the days of the Proto-Semeitc community c. 10,000 BC.

The low frequency of this clade of M-17 may therefore reflect more recent, minimal influence. Turkic groups did infiltrate parts of the ME as well after all.

[Qemist]

Given the lack of any reliable genetic data for the Khazars the study seems a little futile. Perhaps some Khazar royal mummies will be found and resolve the question.

It is amusing to see the study described as part of an anti-Israel and anti-Semitic plot to delegitimize Israel in the Zionosphere. The author is of course an Israeli Jew, who looks fairly typically semitic (or is this what Khazars looked like?)

http://eelhaik.aravindachakravartilab.org/Pics/Me.jpg

[Sarmatian]

His mistake was treating the Armenian reference sample as a Caucasus group, and also a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar Empire. Thus, when the Jewish samples showed strong affinity to the Armenians, the author mistook this as a signal of Khazar ancestry in Jews, because the Khazar Empire included parts of the Caucasus.

This is a very good point. Modern Armenians indeed belong to Caucasus but in the days of Khazar Khaganate there was no Armenians at all.

[Anglojew]

Ashkenazim are pretty much half North Italian half Anatolian/Levantine.

Not surprising given that many Jews were captured and taken as Slaves to Italy by the Romans.

[bronze1000]

Interesting study.

Those claiming that Armenians, and the south caucuses in general, being a bad proxy show they have no idea what they are talking about when they suggest East Asians as a better proxy. Armenians are certainly closer.

We have descriptions of the Khazars from the middle ages, and none mention an East Asian appearance, "The 10th century Muslim geographer al-Iṣṭakhrī claimed that the White Khazars were strikingly handsome with reddish hair, white skin, and blue eyes, while the Black Khazars were swarthy, verging on deep black, as if they were some kind of Indian".

This study indicates that, based on contemporary populations, Ashkenazi Jews are not a middle eastern population. This has been rationalized by saying that contemporary middle eastern populations do not represent the population of biblical times. Ok, but for the past 15 years, studies, based on contemporary populations, have been claiming that Ashkenazi Jews are a middle eastern population. This confirms Elhaik's claims that the Rhineland hypothetists have been dishonest in previous studies.

[Anglojew]

I am torn between thinking modern European Jews are southern Italian converts, and that it is a coincidence they cluster together. Because Sicilianu101 for instance got a significant couple of shared segments with Druze, and they are a group often said to be close to Jews too. Maybe both groups just have enough Levantine ancestry and a similar Mediterranean component?

If what AngloJew says is true, that modern Jews are the best representation of ancient Israelites.. since these Jews cluster with Sicilians and Greeks then it means the Jews of the Bible would have been almost genetically identical to today's Sicilians and Greeks.

I'd say Samaratans are a better representation. Druze are probably a close match too and some Palestinians especially in Galilee.

[Vesuvian Sky]

I have no idea if this bust is true or not but it allegedly depicts what a Khazar looks like from Khazar times:


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-g34gbNy80XE/TrfXA7ZjNpI/AAAAAAAAAlc/UJvGPIryJdA/s640/Khazar+Warrior+Bust.JPG

So if its true, the Khazar physical type = Turanid IMO.

Which of course is rather different then most Ashkenazi Jewish physical types.

Also, all Jewish populations, Mizrahi, Ashkenazi, and Sephardim have west Asian component but no east Asian or north Eurasian or anything remotely like what a Turkic or Altaic person is most often expected to have.

[Proto-Shaman]

We are all Turkic deep inside. Our ancestors were Turanic warriors from great Turanic empire. :thumb001:
Oh no :picard1: Horst von Tyskland gone wild again :drink :typing :icon_drunk: :dizzy:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/Assets/howlers.jpg

[bronze1000]

I have no idea if this bust is true or not but it allegedly depicts what a Khazar looks like from Khazar times


The face is difficult to make out, apart from the fact that it has thick eyelids.

[Vesuvian Sky]

The face is difficult to make out, apart from the fact that it has thick eyelids.

Its clearly an Asiatic/Turanid/whatever depiction. I'm more concerned about authenticity at this point but also context from which it was found in. It was apparently presented in Koestler's book.

[Onur]

Also, all Jewish populations, Mizrahi, Ashkenazi, and Sephardim have west Asian component but no east Asian or north Eurasian or anything remotely like what a Turkic or Altaic person is most often expected to have.
How they look today is totally irrelevant. These people lived in Poland, Germany, Hungary for about 1000 years `till WW-2.

Lets assume that you move to Germany or Sweden today. Tell me, how your descendants after 1000 years would look like? Would they look like you or the other Swedish people around them after 1000 years?

[bronze1000]

Its clearly an Asiatic/Turanid/whatever depiction. I'm more concerned about authenticity at this point but also context from which it was found in. It was apparently presented in Koestler's book.

Khazars did not have one homogenous appearance, and neither do Ashkenazi Jews today.

Ashkenazi Jews
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Danielle+Harris+Stake+Land+Premiere+2010+Toronto+n tjVRWwKeq4l.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--_U1x1j18Qk/TxH8AIpaKtI/AAAAAAAAH08/sdOWjBQSLKE/s1600/Ezra-Miller+The+Hairstyler.jpg

[Vesuvian Sky]

How they look today is totally irrelevant. These people lived in Poland, Germany, Hungary for about 1000 years `till WW-2.

Lets assume that you move to Germany or Sweden today. Tell me, how your descendants after 1000 years would look like? Would they look like you or the other Swedish people around them after 1000 years?

Yeah well guess what determines in part one's look: autosomal components.

So I don't see how s. Caucus type autosomal components, particularly like Armenians, is going to help show proof that all Ashkenazim are descended from Khazar ruling class.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Khazars did not have one homogenous appearance, and neither do Ashkenazi Jews today.

Ashkenazi Jews
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Danielle+Harris+Stake+Land+Premiere+2010+Toronto+n tjVRWwKeq4l.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--_U1x1j18Qk/TxH8AIpaKtI/AAAAAAAAH08/sdOWjBQSLKE/s1600/Ezra-Miller+The+Hairstyler.jpg

Ezra Miller is not pure Ashkenazi. I don't know about the woman.

Also, some Ashkenazi can look Slav, English, and so on and so on. And like I mentioned before, Jewish populations Mizrahi, and Sephardim have a Caucus/w. Asian component.

[bronze1000]

Ezra Miller is not pure Ashkenazi.

Yes, that's true, but his appearance is certainly not from his non-Jewish side. Clearly being only half Ashkenazi is strong enough to create a Turanid like appearance in some. The woman is Danielle Harris, completely Jewish. They both look similar, thus I attribute this look as a specific Ashkenazi look. Once you acknowledge that this type of appearance is likely Khazarian in origin, you can see it in many Jewish people, usually in smaller degrees.

[SkyBurn]

Ezra Miller's look is very atypical.

As for the Khazar theory, it's just a myth propagated by anti-Zionists to undermine Ashkenazi entitlement to Israel. It does not hold truth, and if it is true, is barely genetically relevant.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Yes, that's true, but his appearance is certainly not from his non-Jewish side. Clearly being only half Ashkenazi is strong enough to create a Turanid like appearance in some. The woman is Danielle Harris, completely Jewish. They both look similar, thus I attribute this look as a specific Ashkenazi look. Once you acknowledge that this type of appearance is likely Khazarian in origin, you can see it in many Jewish people, usually in smaller degrees.

The most blatant evidence for a Jew being descended from Khazar ruling class is really to be from the one M-17 clade that is most associated with C. Asian Turkic groups. Some have it. Most do not as stated earlier in this thread.

Some Jews do have a "chinky"/Turanid look like this guy:

http://www.landsnail.com/apple/local/profile/New_Folder/graphics/wozniak.gif

However, there are plenty of Ashekenazi that don't look like this.

But when averaged out, any Northern or Eastern Asiatic components among Ashkenazi on the spreadsheets are low to non-existant. So the Khazar contribution to Ashkenazi Jew gene pool is not very significant. This is what we'd expect a ruling elite's contribution to be (Khazars) who were mostly obliterated by Svetoslav.

[Sikeliot]

As for the Khazar theory, it's just a myth propagated by anti-Zionists to undermine Ashkenazi entitlement to Israel. It does not hold truth, and if it is true, is barely genetically relevant.

I'll say this. If immigrants ever overwhelm Sicily, I'd gladly welcome Ashkenazis to replenish the gene pool since you guys are very similar.

[Legion]

I certainly see Turanid looks among Jews of East Slavic extraction. I'm not sure about other, western ones who look more like Central Europeans.

[bronze1000]

The most blatant evidence for a Jew being descended from Khazar ruling class

The conversion was widespread, not just the ruling class. There is no singular appearance that indicated Khazarian ancestry. I highlighted the Turanid like appearance because you are trying to pinpoint that as the sole indicator of Khazarian ancestry.

I find Danielle Harris to be a strong example of this appearance

http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/ld/hatchet_II_premiere_270810/danielle_harris_2975238.jpg

Once you acknowledge that this is a Khazarian appearance you then are able to see it in many Jews, that previously you did not think looked unusual, as the look is less exaggerated in them. For example, Chevy Chase.

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/C/Chevy-Chase-9542517-1-402.jpg

[sgc2009]

Yes, that's true, but his appearance is certainly not from his non-Jewish side. Clearly being only half Ashkenazi is strong enough to create a Turanid like appearance in some. The woman is Danielle Harris, completely Jewish. They both look similar, thus I attribute this look as a specific Ashkenazi look. Once you acknowledge that this type of appearance is likely Khazarian in origin, you can see it in many Jewish people, usually in smaller degrees.

Ezra Miller's Jewish father:
http://nyupubposts.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bob-miller.jpg

Some sources claim his mother is Jewish but he said in an interview that his father is Jewish:
http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.co.il%2Fmagazine%2F1.16 20442

His non-Jewish mother:
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/107113067-actor-ezra-miller-and-mother-marta-miller-at-wireimage.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892102A727B1636DE2E653EF5891AA982FAC A8C24F8E3DD92CEF12A55E927C72B819E30A760B0D811297

:picard1:

[bronze1000]

His non-Jewish mother:
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/107113067-actor-ezra-miller-and-mother-marta-miller-at-wireimage.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892102A727B1636DE2E653EF5891AA982FAC A8C24F8E3DD92CEF12A55E927C72B819E30A760B0D811297


Could you have chosen a worse picture to see her face?

Regardless, Miller's appearance is not overly atypical of Jews, as the female in my post shows.

[Vesuvian Sky]

I highlighted the Turanid like appearance because you are trying to pinpoint that as the sole indicator of Khazarian ancestry.

Incorrect.

I am weighing all evidence, bot physical anthropological but also genetics.

If you feel that Armenian components somehow = Khazar, as you stated earlier, and if we have a bust of a Khazar from the time of the Khazars then wouldn't the S. Caucus/Armenian like autosomal components play a role in shaping what a Khazar would look like?

How S. Caucus/Armenian genes show this you have yet to demonstrate. Especially if we are talking of tr00 Turanids, as the Khazars almost certainly were if you know where they came from.


Once you acknowledge that this Khazarian appearance is atypical for Ashkenazi then its clear this theory falls on its face.

fixed.

[sgc2009]

Could you have chosen a worse picture to see her face?

Regardless, Miller's appearance is not overly atypical of Jews, as the female in my post shows.

His appearance is extremely rare for a Jew, the fact that he is only half Jew and that his phenotype isn't from his Jewish father says it all...

[bronze1000]

If you feel that Armenian components somehow = Khazar, as you stated earlier, and if we have a bust of a Khazar from the time of the Khazars then wouldn't the S. Caucus/Armenian like autosomal components play a role in shaping what a Khazar would look like?

Khazars had a variety of appearances.


How S. Caucus/Armenian genes show this you have yet to demonstrate. Especially if we are talking of tr00 Turanids, as the Khazars almost certainly were if you know where they came from.

Khazars incorporated non-Traunids into the Kingdom. The study used Armenians/south Caucasus as a proxy for the general population.


fixed.
It is not particularly atypical
Small time Jewish comedian

though the hypothesis does not rely on everyone looking like this, as there was no homogenous look.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Khazars incorporated non-Traunids into the Kingdom. The study used Armenians/south Caucasus as a proxy for the general population.


I'm just going to cut to the chase:

Can you explain then why both Sephardim and Ashkenazi both have similar amounts of Caucus/West Asian and ME autosomal components per the Pagani K8 spreadsheet:

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af312/geomjr/ScreenShot2013-03-05at95914PM.png

[bronze1000]

I'm just going to cut to the chase:

Can you explain then why both Sephardim and Ashkenazi both have similar amounts of Caucus/West Asian and ME autosomal components per the Pagani K8 spreadsheet:

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af312/geomjr/ScreenShot2013-03-05at95914PM.png

I am not an expert on that.

However, the Sephardim communities and Ashkenazi communities had migration between each other, and thus Sephardim also have Khazarian ancestry, to a lesser degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_Correspondence#Khazars_in_Spain

"You will find the communities of Israel spread abroad... as far as Dailam and the river Itil where live Khazar peoples who became proselytes. The Khazar king Joseph sent a letter to Hasdai ibn-Shaprut and informed him that he and all his people followed the rabbinical faith. We have seen descendants of the Khazars in Toledo, students of the wise, and they have told us that the remnant of them is of the rabbinical belief."

[Vesuvian Sky]

However, the Sephardim communities and Ashkenazi communities had migration between each other, and thus Sephardim also have Khazarian ancestry, to a lesser degree.



Same components are in Yemenese Jews and Druze though:

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af312/geomjr/ScreenShot2013-03-05at101929PM.png
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af312/geomjr/ScreenShot2013-03-05at101911PM.png

[sgc2009]

I am not an expert on that.

However, the Sephardim communities and Ashkenazi communities had migration between each other, and thus Sephardim also have Khazarian ancestry, to a lesser degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_Correspondence#Khazars_in_Spain

"You will find the communities of Israel spread abroad... as far as Dailam and the river Itil where live Khazar peoples who became proselytes. The Khazar king Joseph sent a letter to Hasdai ibn-Shaprut and informed him that he and all his people followed the rabbinical faith. We have seen descendants of the Khazars in Toledo, students of the wise, and they have told us that the remnant of them is of the rabbinical belief."

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

West Asian (Caucasus) scores in Jewish and Mideastern populations:

Assyrian_D: 50.6
Azerbaijan_Jews: 43.4
Iraq_Jews: 41.3
Samaritans: 35.2
Lebanese: 32.4
Jordanians_19: 29.3
Ashkenazi_D: 24.5
Sephardic_Jews: 23.5

Yeah, all Mideasterners are Khazars... :rolleyes:

[bronze1000]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

West Asian (Caucasus) scores in Jewish and Mideastern populations:

Assyrian_D: 50.6
Azerbaijan_Jews: 43.4
Iraq_Jews: 41.3
Samaritans: 35.2
Lebanese: 32.4
Jordanians_19: 29.3
Ashkenazi_D: 24.5
Sephardic_Jews: 23.5

Yeah, all Mideasterners are Khazars... :rolleyes:

The Elhaik study indicated that, based on IBD sharing, Ashkenazi Jews have more in common with Caucasus populations, particularly Armenians, than with middle eastern populations.

The quote by Abraham ibn Daud is also interesting for another reason, as it says that Khazars were in Dailam, which is south of Caspian sea. The south Caucasus is a relevant proxy.

[Vesuvian Sky]

The Elhaik study indicated that, based on IBD sharing, Ashkenazi Jews have more in common with Caucasus populations, particularly Armenians, than with middle eastern populations.

Contrary to what Elhaik et al thinks, Armenians basically are an ME population, again from Pagani K8:

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af312/geomjr/ScreenShot2013-03-05at103645PM.png

Same high amounts of ME autosomal components. The West Asian component basically is a type of ME component.

[sgc2009]

The Elhaik study indicated that, based on IBD sharing, Ashkenazi Jews have more in common with Caucasus populations, particularly Armenians, than with middle eastern populations.

The quote by Abraham ibn Daud is also interesting for another reason, as it says that Khazars were in Dailam, which is south of Caspian sea. The south Caucasus is a relevant proxy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20560205

"Here, genome-wide analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek, and Ashkenazi) and comparison with non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive Jewish population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture. Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry. Rapid decay of IBD in Ashkenazi Jewish genomes was consistent with a severe bottleneck followed by large expansion, such as occurred with the so-called demographic miracle of population expansion from 50,000 people at the beginning of the 15th century to 5,000,000 people at the beginning of the 19th century. Thus, this study demonstrates that European/Syrian and Middle Eastern Jews represent a series of geographical isolates or clusters woven together by shared IBD genetic threads."


Israelites 2000 years ago were quite different from Arabs that inhabit the area today, Israelites/Jews like other Northern Semites have higher affinity towards the Caucasus because they haven't received much admix from the Arabian peninsula unlike Muslim Arabs.

[bronze1000]

Contrary to what Elhaik et al thinks, Armenians basically are an ME population, again from Pagani K8:

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af312/geomjr/ScreenShot2013-03-05at103645PM.png

Same high amounts of ME autosomal components. The West Asian component basically is a type of ME component.

If that was the case, his tests would not have connected Ashkenazi Jews with Armenians significantly more than the middle east.

[Vesuvian Sky]

If that was the case, his tests would not have connected Ashkenazi Jews with Armenians significantly more than the middle east.

Actually what I'm saying here as well as genome bloggers is that Elhaik's reasoning = crap. Armenians ARE an ME population. See here for further clarification:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/khazar-origins-of-european-jews-finally.html


His mistake was treating the Armenian reference sample as a Caucasus group, and also a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar Empire. Thus, when the Jewish samples showed strong affinity to the Armenians, the author mistook this as a signal of Khazar ancestry in Jews, because the Khazar Empire included parts of the Caucasus.

But what do modern Armenians of the South Caucasus have to do with ancient Khazars of the Pontic Caspian Steppe? Not much, I'd say. Armenians aren't even a useful Caucasian reference set, in my opinion. They're better treated as an Eastern Anatolian group, due to their high affinity to Mediterranean and Middle Eastern populations.

Moreover, they show low North/East European genetic input, and very little East Eurasian influence, which is actually the sort of stuff we'd want in a proxy for the inhabitants of the Khazar Empire in what is now Southern Russia.

[bronze1000]

Actually what I'm saying here as well as genome bloggers is that Elhaik's reasoning = crap. Armenians ARE an ME population. See here for further clarification:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/khazar-origins-of-european-jews-finally.html

You're not saying that his reasoning was crap, you're denying his data. If Armenians are a middle eastern population, then the tests he conducted would not have produced different results between Armenians and middle eastern populations.

With regards to that bloger, I posted a quote from a medieval Jewish historian asserting that Khazars were not just in the north, but in the south as far as Dailami. The South Caucasus and even northern Iran are relevant.

[Vesuvian Sky]

You're not saying that his reasoning was crap, you're denying his data. If Armenians are a middle eastern population, then the tests he conducted would not have produced different results between Armenians and middle eastern populations.

With regards to that bloger, I posted a quote from a medieval Jewish historian asserting that Khazars were not just in the north, but in the south as far as Dailami. The South Caucasus and even northern Iran are relevant.

You don't get it.

But, I will remind myself here:
http://memecrunch.com/meme/7QCP/arguing-with-fundamentalists-conspiracy-theorists-etc/image.png

[riverman]

This is the problem with taking a modern population and having it "represent" a historical one without familiarity of the cultures. Seriously come on.

[Philo]

How they look today is totally irrelevant. These people lived in Poland, Germany, Hungary for about 1000 years `till WW-2.

Lets assume that you move to Germany or Sweden today. Tell me, how your descendants after 1000 years would look like? Would they look like you or the other Swedish people around them after 1000 years?

It's not the same. You gotta understand that Jewish communities in Europe were very segregarted. Of course, some gene flow must happen over a large periods of time. The thing is, if it was'nt for the church and the jewish establshiments(synagogues, rabbis etc..) There probably would be MUCH MORE inter-marriage than how it turned out. I read a book about this in google books. I'll see if I can find it.

[Onur]

Here is an historical document from the Khazar empire. This letter has been written around 930 AD in Andalusia and sent to the Khazar Turkic jews in Kiev, today`s Ukraine. It`s written in Hebrew language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievian_Letter


Here is a picture of the letter;

http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/b/0/21190/21190510_kievan_letter.jpg


There is a short note written in Turkic runic in the left end side as "Okurum", meaning "I read";

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Okurum-Khazar.png


The letter has been analyzed and published by an expert in Turkic and Hebrew languages, Omeljan Pritsak. There are names of some Khazarian Turkic jews getting mentioned in the text and Pritsak made a new discovery by finding out that the Turkic named jews in Khazaria uses the surname of Cohen, the name of a privileged family line in the world jewry. This proves that the so-called Cohen lines in European jewry is also fake. The name of Cohen also adopted by the Khazar jews more than 1000 years ago, probably as a sign of a prestige.

He also found out that there was slavic named jews among Khazars too.

[Philo]

This document is so important. It`s been analyzed and published by an expert in Turkic and Hebrew languages, Omeljan Pritsak. He made a new discovery from this letter and found out that the Turkic named jews in Khazaria uses the surname of Cohen, the name of a privileged family line in the world jewry. This proves that the so-called Cohen lines in European jewry is also fake. The name of Cohen also adopted by the Khazar jews more than 1000 years ago, probably as a sign of a prestige.
FAIL!!!!
Cohen is the name given for the preistly line which are supposedly descendant of Aaron from the bible. He was the brother of Moses and also a Cohen. Choen was the name of the high priests of the temple before it was destroyed by the Romans. If anything, that only means that the Khazarian Jews are original Jews from Judea. Cohen is a very common last name in sephardi and mizrahi jews.


Here is an historical document from the Khazar empire. This letter has been written around 930 AD in Kiev, today`s Ukraine by the Khazar Turkic jews. It`s written in Hebrew language and most likely sent to the Andalusian Sephardi jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievian_Letter


Here is a picture of the letter;

http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/b/0/21190/21190510_kievan_letter.jpg


There is a short note written in Turkic runic in the left end side as "Okurum", meaning "I read";

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Okurum-Khazar.png

Important find.

[Anglojew]

Here is an historical document from the Khazar empire. This letter has been written around 930 AD in Andalusia and sent to the Khazar Turkic jews in Kiev, today`s Ukraine. It`s written in Hebrew language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievian_Letter


Here is a picture of the letter;

http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/b/0/21190/21190510_kievan_letter.jpg


There is a short note written in Turkic runic in the left end side as "Okurum", meaning "I read";

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Okurum-Khazar.png


The letter has been analyzed and published by an expert in Turkic and Hebrew languages, Omeljan Pritsak. There are names of the Khazarian Turkic jews gets mentioned in the text and Pritsak made a new discovery by finding out that the Turkic named jews in Khazaria uses the surname of Cohen, the name of a privileged family line in the world jewry. This proves that the so-called Cohen lines in European jewry is also fake. The name of Cohen also adopted by the Khazar jews more than 1000 years ago, probably as a sign of a prestige.

1. The Runic looks a lot like Hebrew.

2. It doesn't prove the Cohanim is fake just that some people faked it, precisely because it was real.

[Hoca]

As far as I know, Jews don't claim Khazar ancestry. Only Turks claim Khazar ancestry.

[ariel]

the khazar theory are false.im living in israel,i never saw befor ashkenazi with turanid feature.

[Onur]

I also posted other historical documents about Khazars in another thread;


Cyril&Methodious mission to Khazaria;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?62435-Khazars-Who-were-they-and-what-happened-to-them&p=1160548&viewfull=1#post1160548



A Turkic runic text from 9-13th century in today`s northern Romania mentioning Karaite jews living in there;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?62435-Khazars-Who-were-they-and-what-happened-to-them&p=1160707&viewfull=1#post1160707

[Vesuvian Sky]

The name of Cohen also adopted by the Khazar jews...

Nope.

Cohen surnames correlates w/ Y-DNA 'J' of the ME types not Turkic M-17 or C3.

Most if not all Cohens are Y-DNA 'J':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

But also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron#Samaritan_Kohanim




Since the Samaritans maintain extensive and detailed genealogical records for the past 13–15 generations (approximately 400 years) and further back, it is possible to construct accurate pedigrees and specific maternal and paternal lineages. Y-Chromosome studies have shown that the majority of Samaritans belong to haplogroups J1 and J2, while the Samaritan Kohanim belong to haplogroup E1b1b1a (formerly known as E3b1a).[2] However, the last member of the Samaritan High-Priestly family, which claimed descent from Eleazar, the son of Aaron, died in 1623 or 1624. There was a time in later periods like the 17-18th centuries that Samaritan sages by mistake wrote to European scholars that their priests are from Uziel b. Kehat. But Samaritan sources, chronicles and lists of lineage connecting the Samaritan Priests of the last 387 years since 1624 [The year that the Priestly Family from Phinhas was ceased] to Itamar b. Aaron the nephew of Moses, meaning that they are all from Aaronic origin. All Samaritan Priests of the present are linked to the father of the family that lived in the 14th century 'Abed Ela b. Shalma that was the House of 'Abtaa from Itamar, son of Aaron. Since that date the priest has called himself "Ha-Kohen Ha-Lewi", which means the Priest-Levite, instead of "Ha-Kohen Ha-Gadol", a title which referred to the High-Priest as in previous times.

[Pecheneg]

I think modern Ashkenazi Jews are a mix of Levantine Jews, Turkic Khazar Converts and some European populations.


Ashkenazi autosomal dna


Caucasus 25%
Siberian 0.5%
East_Asian 1.2%
Atlantic_Baltic 33.4%
South_Asian 0%
Southern 39%
African 1%


Turkic Khazars were probably predominantly Atlantic_Baltic + Caucasus with some East_Asian+Siberian.

[Libertas]

I think modern Ashkenazi Jews are a mix of Levantine Jews, Turkic Khazar Converts and some European populations.


Ashkenazi autosomal dna


Caucasus 25%
Siberian 0.5%
East_Asian 1.2%
Atlantic_Baltic 33.4%
South_Asian 0%
Southern 39%
African 1%


Turkic Khazars were probably predominantly Atlantic_Baltic + Caucasus with some East_Asian+Siberian.

What is your source for these figures?

Any figures for other Jewish groups and for South Europeans?

[Pecheneg]

What is your source for these figures?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0

[Vesuvian Sky]

Siberian 0.5%
East Asian 1.5%



Oh wow, look how 'Khazar' Ashkenazi are.

:laugh:

[ariel]

I also posted other historical documents about Khazars in another thread;


Cyril&Methodious mission to Khazaria;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?62435-Khazars-Who-were-they-and-what-happened-to-them&p=1160548&viewfull=1#post1160548



A Turkic runic text from 9-13th century in today`s northern Romania mentioning Karaite jews living in there;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?62435-Khazars-Who-were-they-and-what-happened-to-them&p=1160707&viewfull=1#post1160707

are you serious?

in karaite myself (from egypt) i never heard before about karaites in romania...

[Pecheneg]

Oh wow, look how 'Khazar' Ashkenazi are.

:laugh:

What makes you think that Khazars were 100% siberian + east asian

[Philo]

What makes you think that Khazars were 100% siberian + east asian

they were probably like 80% siberian + east asian. I mean come on they were turkic, why would they be "Atlantic-baltic"?
I'm talking about the ethnic khazars. There were probably ethnic jews in the khazar kingdom that came there because the king accepeted Judaism.

[Vesuvian Sky]

What makes you think that Khazars were 100% siberian + east asian

Khazars being tr00 Turanid and based from where they originate would have been 50% European, probably of a more Northern component and 50% Asian components all of the Easterly types.

Doubt they would have a Southern Med. component of any significance. Also the Atlantic Baltic cateogory for that particular calculator just jumbles up west European traits (Atlantic) with the Northern (Baltic).

[ariel]

they were probably like 80% siberian + east asian. I mean come on they were turkic, why would they be "Atlantic-baltic"?
I'm talking about the ethnic khazars. There were probably ethnic jews in the khazar kingdom that came there because the king accepeted Judaism.

according to arabian sources only the khazar elite adopted judaism and most the khazar population were muslim christian or shamanist.

[Onur]

are you serious?

in karaite myself (from egypt) i never heard before about karaites in romania...
100% serious. Click that link and read it.

There are 1000s of Karaite jews in Lithuania, Poland and Turkey today. They still speak Turkic and claim Khazar heritage themselves.

These people migrated to eastern Europe around 9-11th century when Khazar empire was no more. All the Khazar jews in history was Karaites, rejecting Talmud but only accepting Torah.


Here are their historical graveyards in eastern Europe;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?62435-Khazars-Who-were-they-and-what-happened-to-them&p=1170302&viewfull=1#post1170302

[Anglojew]

Are Karaites Khazars, that is the question?

[ariel]

100% serious. Click that link and read it.

There are 1000s of Karaite jews in Lithuania, Poland and Turkey today. They still speak Turkic and claim Khazar heritage themselves.

These people migrated to eastern Europe around 9-11th century when Khazar empire was no more.

i know about these people are called karaylar,they may claim khazar origin but genetic test tie these people to levant with some low asian admixture but they are not a real khazars...

[Vesuvian Sky]

Are Karaites Khazars, that is the question?

They are Turkic Jews who claim decent from Khazars, or who are believed by scholars etc. to be closest thing to Khazars or possible decendants.

I would be interested to see how their results turn out as a sample population by themselves and not lumped into the overall Ashkenazi gene pool. There'd almost certainly be significant differences.

[Pecheneg]

they were probably like 80% siberian + east asian.


80% ??? That's even more mongoloid than Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. :laugh:





I mean come on they were turkic, why would they be "Atlantic-baltic"?
Even Mongols in east asia have "atlantic_baltic". Do you even know what you are talking about?











Khazars being tr00 Turanid and based from where they originate would have been 50% European, probably of a more Northern component and 50% Asian components.

Doubt they would have a Southern component of any significance. Also the Atlantic Baltic cateogory for that particular calculator just jumbles up west European traits (Atlantic) with the Northern (Baltic).



Khazar Empire
http://i50.tinypic.com/16kx5w5.jpg

Khazars were described by early Arab sources as having a white complexion, blue eyes, and reddish hair.
Seriously what's up with Turkic=100% mongoloid stuff?

[ariel]

They are Turkic Jews who claim decent from Khazars, or who are believed by scholars etc. to be closest thing to Khazars or possible decendants.

I would be interested to see how their results turn out as a sample population by themselves and not lumped into the overall Ashkenazi gene pool. There'd almost certainly be significant differences.

im karaite egyptian, but i know some of these people personally.they not khazars but levantines with some low asian admixtures probablly from the golden horde invasion to crimea.they have cohanim and levi people,this proved even some israelite origin as well.

[Onur]

i know about these people are called karaylar,they may claim khazar origin but genetic test tie these people to levant with some low asian admixture but they are not a real khazars...
This is not true and it`s being done purposely to deny Turkic heritage of them. They have 800-900 year old gravestones in Ukraine and it`s written in Turkic.

The interpretation of these genetic tests are wrong. They regard Khazars as fully mongoloid east Asians and say that today`s Karaims cannot be Turks. The same tactic are also used for all the Turks in the world. They say that "you are not mongoloid east Asian, so you cannot be Turks". This is bullshit.

I am sick of this "Turks=Pure Mongoloid" crap anymore!



im karaite egyptian, but i know some of these people personally.they not khazars but levantines with some low asian admixtures probablly from the golden horde invasion to crimea.they have cohanim and levi people,this proved even some israelite origin as well.
As you can see, Khazars was using the surname Cohen with Turkic names more than 1000 years ago. This is probably the reason of why some Karaims have Cohen name today. It`s fake and they are Turks or Slavs but not Israelite.

[Anglojew]

29587

Looks like

אמדקלג

The second letter (from the right) is written like an N in cursive script, this looks like someone's handwriting not a scribe.

It would read something like Amedkleg. Maybe that's a Khazar name/word?

[Philo]

80% ??? That's even more mongoloid than Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. :laugh:


I meant 80% combined. They were true Turkics we'rent they?



Even Mongols in east asia have "atlantic_baltic". Do you even know what you are talking about?
How much?



Seriously what's up with Turkic=100% mongoloid stuff?
That's how most people think of them.

[ariel]

seraya shapshal-karaylar leader from crimea

http://imageshack.us/a/img10/3056/436311448.jpg

[Vesuvian Sky]

Khazars empire

Khazars were ruling elite from C. Asian.

They would have ruled over all the various people in this region. Some of whom were Muslim, Christian, and Jews from Persia originally.


Khazars were described by early Arab sources as having a white complexion, blue eyes, and reddish hair.

Arab sources back then are mostly demonizing Khazars. Having red hair is seen overtime among societies as an "evil" trait.



Seriously what's up with Turkic=100% mongoloid stuff?

In my prior post, I stated Khazars would have been by autosomal components:

50% N. Euro
50% E. Asian

[Hoca]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Davestar.jpg

Khazar seal.

[Onur]

Looks like

אמדקלג

The second letter (from the right) is written like an N in cursive script, this looks like someone's handwriting not a scribe.

It would read something like Amedkleg. Maybe that's a Khazar name/word?
Are you trying to deny the reading of world`s leading historians and linguists?



Here is a documentary about Turkic Karaims in Europe and Turkey. Unfortunately it`s in Turkish only, no English subs;

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/h1YI3Hnk8u0?list=PL8DB84ED4BD383538" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[ariel]

hakham grshom qiprischi

http://imageshack.us/a/img254/7809/hakham20gershom20qipris.jpg


look levantine too me

[Anglojew]

Are you trying to deny the reading of world`s leading historians and linguists?

Yes. It's a Hebrew script document. Those letters are Hebrew too. I'm not sure why you're trying to bring another script into the picture? Every letter there represents an EXACT Hebrew letter with the only problematic one, Mem, simply being the cursive form of the letter.

I'm not sure Turkish linguists are "world leaders" anyway.

[Anglojew]

Arab sources back then are mostly demonizing Khazars. Having red hair is seen overtime among societies as an "evil" trait.




In my prior post, I stated Khazars would have been by autosomal components:

50% N. Euro
50% E. Asian

Mohammed had red hair which is why all the religious Muslims dye their beard's red and look weird;

29588

[Vesuvian Sky]

im karaite egyptian, but i know some of these people personally.they not khazars but levantines with some low asian admixtures probablly from the golden horde invasion to crimea.they have cohanim and levi people,this proved even some israelite origin as well.

Cool. But did they have their DNA analyzed? Did it mostly come back as Levantine? Is that what you're saying?

[ariel]

Are you trying to deny the reading of world`s leading historians and linguists?



Here is a documentary about Turkic Karaims in Europe and Turkey. Unfortunately it`s in Turkish only, no English subs;

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/h1YI3Hnk8u0?list=PL8DB84ED4BD383538" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

i know what they claim as i said genetic test proved levantin descend

[ariel]

Cool. But did they have their DNA analyzed? Did it mostly come back as Levantine? Is that what you're saying?

i know their leader in israel he told me about the genetic test,these people mostly levantines...

[Pecheneg]

I meant 80% combined. They were true Turkics we'rent they?

What does "true-Turkic" even mean? There are over 200 million Turkic people in the world and majority of them are predominantly caucasoids.

It's like saying Jews must be genetically 100% "southwest_asian" (associated with Semitic populations) to be "tr00 Jews". Bullshit.


Here you go, "southwest_asian" admixture in Ashkenazi jews;
Ashkenazi_D = 13.2% Southwest_Asian




How much?
Almost 10%, but this isn't my point. I'm trying to say that "Atlantic_Baltic" component is not only limited to some European populations.





That's how most people think of them.
Then they are wrong, even Mongols of east asia are not 100% Mongoloids, but about 80%.

[Onur]

hakham grshom qiprischi

http://imageshack.us/a/img254/7809/hakham20gershom20qipris.jpg

look levantine too me
Post his pictures to taxonomy section.

To me, he looks like a typical Turk with Alpine features, not Levantine at all.



I'm not sure Turkish linguists are "world leaders" anyway.
Omeljan Pritsak is not a Turk. He was an Harvard prof., the head of the Ukrainian steppe history research institution.

[Anglojew]

What does "true-Turkic" even mean? There are over 200 million Turkic people in the world and majority of them are predominantly caucasoids.

It's like saying Jews must be genetically 100% "southwest_asian" (associated with Semitic populations) to be "tr00 Jews". Bullshit.


Here you go, "southwest_asian" admixture in Ashkenazi jews;
Ashkenazi_D = 13.2% Southwest_Asian



Almost 10%, but this isn't my point. I'm trying to say that "Atlantic_Baltic" component is not only limited to some European populations.




Then they are wrong, even Mongols of east asia are not 100% Mongoloids, but about 80%.

Funny that Crimean Karaites and Turks are both Turkish-speaking but not really ethnic Turkics.

[ariel]

Post his pictures to taxonomy section.

To me, he looks like a typical Turk with Alpine features, not Levantine at all.



Omeljan Pritsak is not a Turk. He was an Harvand prof.

he look levantine to me....many syriac people look like that

[Anglojew]

he look levantine to me....many syriac people look like that

I think some Karaites were Levantines and some Turkic eg I think it was the religious stream of Judaism some Turkic people (Khazars?) converted to. I think it's the Crimean Karaites who were Turkic.

[ariel]

I think some Karaites were Levantines and some Turkic eg I think it was the religious stream of Judaism some Turkic people (Khazars?) converted to. I think it's the Crimean Karaites who were Turkic.

the egyptian karaites are true israelites,about the karaylar(crimean karaites) they are mostly levantines with some low east asian admixture,probablly from the golden horde period.

[Onur]

he look levantine to me....many syriac people look like that
Are you kiddin me? I am gonna post his pictures to taxonomy section and go ahead tell that he looks like a Syriac and wait for the opinions of other people here :)



I think some Karaites were Levantines and some Turkic eg I think it was the religious stream of Judaism some Turkic people (Khazars?) converted to. I think it's the Crimean Karaites who were Turkic.
Ofc Crimean Karaites are Turks. They even have 900 year old Turkic written gravestones in their homeland and old Turkic features in their language.

The question is how much of the European Ashkenazi jews are also Khazarian Turkic and Slavic jews.

[Pecheneg]

Khazars were ruling elite from C. Asian.

They would have ruled over all the various people in this region. Some of whom were Muslim, Christian, and Jews from Persia originally.

I don't think that they were small-ruling class. I agree that Khazar Empire was multi-ethnic and multi-religious throughout its entire existence, but pontic-caspian steppe was already dominated by Turkic Tribes long before Khazars formed an empire, so we shouldn't underestimate the Turkic population of Khazar Empire.

486 AD
http://i49.tinypic.com/2ld7t3t.jpg




565 AD
http://i46.tinypic.com/23qx98w.jpg




600 AD
http://i47.tinypic.com/vifes0.jpg




700 AD
http://i46.tinypic.com/nl6ixe.jpg








Arab sources back then are mostly demonizing Khazars. Having red hair is seen overtime among societies as an "evil" trait.
Was "white complexion & Blue eyes" part of this demonization too?





In my prior post, I stated Khazars would have been by autosomal components:

50% N. Euro
50% E. Asian

Well, i respect your opinion, but i disagree.







Funny that Crimean Karaites and Turks are both Turkish-speaking but not really ethnic Turkics.

They are both certainly more "Turkic" than European Jews are "Semitic".

[Vesuvian Sky]

I don't think that they were small-ruling class. I agree that Khazar Empire was multi-ethnic and multi-religious throughout its entire existence, but pontic-caspian steppe was already dominated by Turkic Tribes long before Khazars formed an empire, so we shouldn't underestimate the Turkic population of Khazar Empire.

The point more though is there were already people present in this area of various extraction. Truthfully, aDNA autosomal components of Khazars is needed here particularly for the ruling class, otherwise its just coffee cup guesses at this point.



Was "white complexion & Blue eyes" part of this demonization too?

Could be. Point here as well is that Arabs were no fans of Khazars given the context in which they're writing about them. Age of Khazar empire is as I'm sure you're aware, contemporary to early Islamic expansion and Khazars actually halted this early expansion. So Arabs writing about Khazars I take with a grain of salt.

Also, Russian archaeologists reconstructed the entire body of a Khazar noble woman. I'm trying to track the video down and needless to say she doesn't match this particular description by Arabs.






Well, i respect your opinion, but i disagree.

ok cool fair enough, and I know there are different schools of thought here, but are you of the opinion that Turanid or early Turkic groups were say 80% N. European autosomally speaking and the rest various E. Asian types.

[ariel]

CRIMEAN KARAITES GENETIC TEST

Molecular Biology of the Karaite Community- questions and first results


V. Kefeli (USA), V. Mireyev ( Ukraine), Libor Walko ( Check Republic)

International Institute of Crimean Karaites



The communities of Crimean and Lithuanian karaites have the hermetic structure leaded by hazzans and ruled by Hahams during more than 6 centuries. Both Communities have common religion, language and customs. Both communities were surrounded by populations of non – karaite religion ( in Crimea – Muslims and in Trakai- Catholics ). Still karaites of both communities preserved their properties in the stable , unchangeable way. Modern genetic investigations of DNA ( K. Brook , 2006, USA)showed data on the study on Eastern Karaite men’s Y-DNA. These data will be discussed

Biological investigation of the West European Karaite Community is the continuing process, containing the antropo-morphic investigations, anthropological studies and blood groups research. Last decade brings new results on Genetics of man Y chromosome , which was studies in USA and Israeli laboratories,

. Polish Karaite and Crimean Karaite belong to G2 haplogroup, which was not typical to Ashkenazi Jews, but derived from Middle Eastern ancestry. Other Karaite DNA J1and J2 subgroups of J haplogroup are close to Syrian Arabs DNA. Some of karaite DNA belong to haplogroup Q, which has central Asian connection. These preliminary DNA investigations showed the heterogeneity of Karaite genome and reflects the steps of Karaite history- Middle East, Holy step, Crimean Mountains , Trakai ( Lithuanian ) community..Libor Valko ( Praha, 2007) thinks “ that this research explicitly supports Avraham Firkovich's theory and desagree with Szapszals unreasonable Khazar theory which was denied by majority of scholars. Hyyek remarks are as follows:


Hyyak reports in IICK Internet_-(in Russian )
Mogu zametit', chto musulman u nas – karaimov defenitivno ne bylo, eto bylo strogo zapresheno, dazhe kontakty s nimi byli ne ochen' nalazheny.
Krome togo, Haplpgroup Q w sochetanii s R1a (kaspiyskiy region) - sut' khazarskoe, no ne qumaqskoe nasledie.
Taty kak narod, osobenno taty-muslim na protyagenii mnodih tysjacheletiy ne sushestvuyut, oni vymerli, libo assimilirovalis' s narodom, zhivshim kogda-to v moey rodine (Alanii; alany tozhe ischesli - w kulturnom smysle).
Krome togo, poslednie issledovania (ot Szyszman do A. Roth) podtverzhdayut, chto qaraylar v Qrymu kavkazsko-kaspiyskooy geneologii.
Ya davno izuchayu anthropologicheskiy aspekt istorii Hazarlar


To the contradiction Avraham Firkovich claimed that Karaims are descendants of ancient Israeli tribes from 1st Exile and Jews from greek settlement.
They could be influed by non-jewish tribes in Babylonia etc.
Main centrum of this ancient G2 haplogroup is in Northeast part of Turkey and Georgia.
Haplogroups J1 a J2 are typicaly jewish haplogroups - these haplogroups are utilised for identification of Kohens(tribe Levi).
"Turkic"/central asian y-DNA haplogroups L(M20), R1a, Q(M242) occur in this group (easteuropean Karaims) only rarely.

[Pecheneg]

ok cool fair enough, and I know there are different schools of thought here, but are you of the opinion that Turanid or early Turkic groups were say 80% N. European autosomally speaking and the rest various E. Asian types.

I think early Turkic speaking peoples (or proto-Turks) were Eurasians from the beginning, then Turkic tribes began their expansion and intermixed with different peoples they encountered, thus genetic/racial uniformity between different Turkic tribes/peoples began to disappear.

That's why there wasn't a racial uniformity between different Turkic tribes/peoples even in medieval times. But of course this is just my personal opinion.

[Philo]

Mohammed had red hair which is why all the religious Muslims dye their beard's red and look weird;

29588

LOL. HAHA.

[Philo]

What does "true-Turkic" even mean? There are over 200 million Turkic people in the world and majority of them are predominantly caucasoids.

It's like saying Jews must be genetically 100% "southwest_asian" (associated with Semitic populations) to be "tr00 Jews". Bullshit.


Here you go, "southwest_asian" admixture in Ashkenazi jews;
Ashkenazi_D = 13.2% Southwest_Asian

I meant people from central asia. That's where the turkic tribes origianted, before they expanded into the other side of the caspian sea, no? There's even a region caleld turkestan.
It's not the same with Ashkenazi Jews and other Jews because we are Semitic for the last 3215 years. The earliest mention of the name "Israel" is from 1203 BCE. See merneptah stele:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele


Almost 10%, but this isn't my point. I'm trying to say that "Atlantic_Baltic" component is not only limited to some European populations.
Of course it is'nt. Levantines have it too at differing quantities. But 10% is not that much IMO.


Then they are wrong, even Mongols of east asia are not 100% Mongoloids, but about 80%.
Good to know.


They are both certainly more "Turkic" than European Jews are "Semitic".
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DAzxt1IBh-o/TOQZDxljkqI/AAAAAAAAAd0/MYqgtUfgNHM/s1600/epic+fail+8.jpg

[bronze1000]

Khazar
http://www.4freeimagehost.com/uploads/PUSH3eec065a7830.jpg
http://media.salon.com/2012/09/wolfowitz_rect.jpg

[Hoca]

^he reminds me of Mehmet Oz, who is a Turkish American but found out he has Jewish ancestry after a DNA test.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Mehmet_Oz_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_2012.jpg/200px-Mehmet_Oz_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_2012.jpg

http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/ld/treatment_action_awards_131210/dr._mehmet_oz_3140778.jpg

[bronze1000]

^he reminds me of Mehmet Oz, who is a Turkish American but found out he has Jewish ancestry after a DNA test.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Mehmet_Oz_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_2012.jpg/200px-Mehmet_Oz_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_2012.jpg

http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/ld/treatment_action_awards_131210/dr._mehmet_oz_3140778.jpg

Would be interesting to see a proper side profile. Imo, he looks more European.

http://www.4freeimagehost.com/uploads/PUSH6897a8b04aaf.jpg

[Philo]

^he reminds me of Mehmet Oz, who is a Turkish American but found out he has Jewish ancestry after a DNA test.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Mehmet_Oz_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_2012.jpg/200px-Mehmet_Oz_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_2012.jpg

http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/ld/treatment_action_awards_131210/dr._mehmet_oz_3140778.jpg

Are you sure ? this is what I found out on a quick google search:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGTUfFb73uA
It only says he has the same Y-DNA like another Jew. Which is not surprising at all. Because many Jews have J2 AND J1C3. Do you have a link which states he has specifically jewish ancestry?

[Anglojew]

Post his pictures to taxonomy section.

To me, he looks like a typical Turk with Alpine features, not Levantine at all.



Omeljan Pritsak is not a Turk. He was an Harvard prof., the head of the Ukrainian steppe history research institution.

He looks typically Jewish.

Totally wrong for a Turk.

[Onur]

He looks typically Jewish.

Totally wrong for a Turk.
typical jewish looks like a middle-easterner, not like him;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?72682-Classify-Hakham-bashi-of-Crimean-Turkic-jews-Gershom-Qiprischi

[YeshAtid]

I certainly see Turanid looks among Jews of East Slavic extraction. I'm not sure about other, western ones who look more like Central Europeans.

...

[YeshAtid]

I'll say this. If immigrants ever overwhelm Sicily, I'd gladly welcome Ashkenazis to replenish the gene pool since you guys are very similar.

Well to be fair they would technically be returning their place of origin, no?

[Multicolor]

Does anyone think that Khazars no longer exists, just because this country no longer exists? amateur

[Multicolor]

Isn't it as if the biblical Ashkenaz founded Scythia? Of course, who reads the best book; better read the books that exist today - not tomorrow.

[Radomir]

Ukrainians, which claims "Kozak"/Cossacks ancestry are
https://youtu.be/lkXjmI_bxiw

[Multicolor]

As - Kenazi

Bulgars, in turn, have preserved their traditional appellation of Ases, under which they were known in the Middle Asia as a dynastic tribe of the As-Tochar-Suvar (Gr. Sabaroi) confederation

Etymology of < Kang + Ar = Kang People, Kangaras < Kang + Ar + As = As People of Kang, Kang = area of Tashkent, and “ancestor”

124 BC: Asi or Aasiani (Ases, Azes, Yazig), Tocharian, Sabir (Sabaroi) tribes break into Sogdiana (Chinese “K'ang-chu” = Kangar) and Baktria (Chinese “Ta-hsia”). In next five years two Parthian emperor die in wars. Later they also conquer Sakauraka tribe

40 BC: Pompey (Gaeus Pompeius Magnus, 106 - 48 BC), Roman general, had to march against Alans/Ases, crossing the Caspian gates. Nomadic pastoralists Alans lived in Asia and Europe around Caspian Sea and documented to have their hinterlands N of Derbent

T ashken t

Ashina

B ashki rs

Mas'udi (ca. 930): Oguz coalition (with Karluks and Kimaks) defeated Bechens and their allies (Chepni, Bashgird and Navkarda) in battle near Aral Sea, and drove Bechens from their native land and compelled them to search for a new home


948 AD: First three Besenyo communities had contacts with Oguzes, Khazars, Alans, and Crimea;

964 AD : Besenyos seriously threaten Khaz aria

Confederation of Kangars/Besenyo-Bosniaks may be seen as alliance of independent Kangar/Croat state and Besenyo-Bosniak state.

Kangar = People from original T ashken t

Kangar = 3 Pecheneg tribe

Kangar-Besenyo became Bosn yas yaks = Asi or Aasiani (Ases, Azes, Yazig)

As - chena


Simple.