Ancient Whites in China

[Cosmic Nordic Supremacy]

This thread is for articles on ancient Whites in China. It is a part of a series of threads about ancient Whites outside of the (once) white fortress Evrópa.

Evidence of ancient White civilizations is found in every continent; and reported at times by mainstream media (like in the article below)—but increasingly medias chose to ignore, and even distort, or hide, information about the racial-component of the findings. As history by some institutions or groups is being written in a racial-nihilistic, or even ethnomasochistic, way it's important we archive these reports, so please copy and paste in your post the whole, or most, of the text in question.

Please participate. :phone:

[27th November 2008]
OTTAWA – Researchers say they have located the world's oldest stash of marijuana, in a tomb in a remote part of China.

The cache of cannabis is about 2,700 years old and was clearly ``cultivated for psychoactive purposes," rather than as fibre for clothing or as food, says a research paper in the Journal of Experimental Botany.

The 789 grams of dried cannabis was buried alongside a light-haired, blue-eyed Caucasian man, likely a shaman of the Gushi culture, near Turpan in northwestern China.

The extremely dry conditions and alkaline soil acted as preservatives, allowing a team of scientists to carefully analyze the stash, which still looked green though it had lost its distinctive odour.


"To our knowledge, these investigations provide the oldest documentation of cannabis as a pharmacologically active agent," says the newly published paper, whose lead author was American neurologist Dr. Ethan B. Russo.

Remnants of cannabis have been found in ancient Egypt and other sites, and the substance has been referred to by authors such as the Greek historian Herodotus. But the tomb stash is the oldest so far that could be thoroughly tested for its properties.


The 18 researchers, most of them based in China, subjected the cannabis to a battery of tests, including carbon dating and genetic analysis. Scientists also tried to germinate 100 of the seeds found in the cache, without success.

The marijuana was found to have a relatively high content of THC, the main active ingredient in cannabis, but the sample was too old to determine a precise percentage.

Researchers also could not determine whether the cannabis was smoked or ingested, as there were no pipes or other clues in the tomb of the shaman, who was about 45 years old.
The large cache was contained in a leather basket and in a wooden bowl, and was likely meant to be used by the shaman in the afterlife.

"This materially is unequivocally cannabis, and no material has previously had this degree of analysis possible," Russo said in an interview from Missoula, Mont.

"It was common practice in burials to provide materials needed for the afterlife. No hemp or seeds were provided for fabric or food. Rather, cannabis as medicine or for visionary purposes was supplied."

The tomb also contained bridles, archery equipment and a harp, confirming the man's high social standing.

Russo is a full-time consultant with GW Pharmaceuticals, which makes Sativex, a cannabis-based medicine approved in Canada for pain linked to multiple sclerosis and cancer.

The company operates a cannabis-testing laboratory at a secret location in southern England to monitor crop quality for producing Sativex, and allowed Russo use of the facility for tests on 11 grams of the tomb cannabis.

Researchers needed about 10 months to cut red tape barring the transfer of the cannabis to England from China, Russo said.
The inter-disciplinary study was published this week by the British-based botany journal, which uses independent reviewers to ensure the accuracy and objectivity of all submitted papers.
The substance has been found in two of the 500 Gushi tombs excavated so far in northwestern China, indicating that cannabis was either restricted for use by a few individuals or was administered as a medicine to others through shamans, Russo said.

"It certainly does indicate that cannabis has been used by man for a variety of purposes for thousands of years."
Russo, who had a neurology practice for 20 years, has previously published studies examining the history of cannabis.
"I hope we can avoid some of the political liabilities of the issue," he said, referring to his latest paper.

The region of China where the tomb is located, Xinjiang, is considered an original source of many cannabis strains worldwide.

Dean Beeby

THE CANADIAN PRESS
[SOURCE: http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/article/544684]

Uighur farmers cultivating the land at the base of the Huoyan Shan (‘Flaming Mountains’) in the Gobi Desert near Turpan, Xinjiang-Uighur Autonomous Region, China some 20 years ago uncovered a vast ancient cemetery (54 000 m2) that seemingly corresponds to the nearby Aidinghu, Alagou, and Subeixi excavations (Ma and Wang, 1994; Chen and Hiebert, 1995; Davis-Kimball, 1998; Kamberi, 1998; An, 2008) (see Supplementary Fig. S1 at JXB online) attributed to the Ghttp://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/math/umacr.gifshhttp://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/math/imacr.gif culture (later rendered Jüshi, or Cheshi) (Academia Turfanica, 2006). The first written reports concerning this clan, drafted about 2000 years BP (before present) in the Chinese historical record, Hou Hanshu, described nomadic light-haired blue-eyed Caucasians speaking an Indo-European language (probably a form of Tocharian, an extinct Indo-European tongue related to Celtic, Italic, and Anatolic (Ma and Sun, 1994). The Ghttp://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/math/umacr.gifshhttp://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/math/imacr.gif tended horses and grazing animals, farmed the land and were accomplished archers (Mallory and Mair, 2000).
[SOURCE: http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/59/15/4171]

Other threads on ancient whites around the globe:
Ancient Whites in South-America (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=683)

[Cosmic Nordic Supremacy]

Damn, what is this, the Phora? This thread is titled "Ancient Whites in China", is it not?
Morover it says:`This thread is for articles on ancient Whites in China. It is a part of a series of threads about ancient Whites outside of the (once) white fortress Evrópa.´
Please split the "Modern Whites in China" discussion into its own thread (or delete).

Meanwhile here is material from a racialist calling himself Aistulf:


_________________________________________________
A truly a must see documentary. A great spiritual motivation to any Indo-Europid on this planet. As a result, it's probably one of the most bone chilling and amazing documentaries I've ever seen. It brought up several emotions for me: fascination, excitement, sadness and anger; for the last things in particularly due to their fate...



http://i3.tinypic.com/21nqkco.gif

http://i4.tinypic.com/21nqo7c.jpg
Xinjiang: scenery & environment

http://i2.tinypic.com/21nqk3q.jpg
modern-day Xinjiang


The Tocharians [Tokharians] were a fully Indo-Europid people that lived in parts of modern-day "China", primarily in the west of modern-day Xinjiang 新疆 [‘New Frontier’] of which only since a decade or two became more known of. That being said, primarily because of the Chinese government allowing a bit more than what was the case in the past, regardless of their attitude to the whole ‘mummy people’ as a whole.

The Tocharians remained fully Europid during their ‘stay’, far longer than expected or than anyone could've dreamt - even with rather fair features in complexion - for thousands of years. This shocked many of the multiculturalist archeologists and anthropologists, but they couldn't deny it.

Aside that they were also responsible for founding and spreading the Indo-European religions Hinduism and Buddhism, of which in the latter case most Tocharians belonged to spiritually and theologically. Not only that, perhaps just a mere detail, but most amazingly perhaps is that they brought both the horse and the wheel to China; which both didn't exist there prior to their arrival. Those horses, by the way, ironically used against many other peoples in the world - mostly Europids - as the Mongols grew united and started their expansion in approximately the year 1100 after Christ.



http://i6.tinypic.com/21nqi4j.jpg
Takla Makan desert region, nowadays the Tarim Basin

http://i2.tinypic.com/21nqneu.jpg
Tocharian mummy in excellent shape, but... for how long under the current conditions?


It has only been until approximately a decade or so they've dug up mummies and other findings in extremely good conditions in the Takla Makan desert and Tarim Basin region. Though, a lot of the mummies found in Xinjiang that were ever found were either decapitated, desecrated completely along with the grave or completely destroyed; in which the central government of the People's Republic of China reportedly often even participated in with. So were many (wall)paintings, most of the time defaced as they were found in the many caves; particularly the eyes were ‘gouged’ out on the painted rock.



http://i4.tinypic.com/21nql45.jpg

http://i4.tinypic.com/21nqmo9.jpg
Defaced paintings, found on cave walls, depicting Tocharians...


The surrounding populations couldn't stand the fact that people would ever find traces of Europids in that part of the world; an Europid wall painting, let alone a mummy with a Europid head and face.



Watch the documentary at Google Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1362674044731979808)! _________________________________________________

[Aemma]

Most excellent thread and most excellent vid! I immensely enjoyed it. Thanks!

Cheers!...Aemma

[Beorn]

The Taklamakan Mummies (Tocharian mummies)

In the late 1980's, perfectly preserved 3000-year-old mummies began appearing in a remote Taklamakan desert. They had long reddish-blond hair, European features and didn't appear to be the ancestors of modern-day Chinese people. Archaeologists now think they may have been the citizens of an ancient civilization that existed at the crossroads between China and Europe.
Victor Mair, a specialist in the ancient corpses and co-author of “Mummies of the Tarim Basin”, said:"Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Krygyzs, the peoples of Central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. The modern and ancient DNA tell the same story.”

The discoveries in the 1980s of the undisturbed 4,000-year-old ”Beauty of Loulan” and the younger 3,000-year-old body of the ”Charchan Man” are legendary in world archaeological circles for the fine state of their preservation and for the wealth of knowledge they bring to modern research. In the second millennium BC, the oldest mummies, like the Loulan Beauty, were the earliest settlers in the Tarim Basin.

Mummies of "Tomb 2"

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy10.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy10.jpg)

The first Tocharian Nordic mummy found in 1989: a White female with long blond hair, finely preserved by the arid desert atmosphere of the Taklamakan desert. Based on her partially dismembered limbs and gouged out eyes, archaeologists believe she was a sacrificial victim.

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy13.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy13.jpg)

This mummified boy, approximately one-year-old, was found in the same grave. He, too, is believed to have been a sacrificial victim who was buried alive.

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy07.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy07.jpg)

A Tocharian female mummy with long flaxen blond hair, perfectly preserved in ponytails. Items of weaved material, identical to Celtic cloth, definitively proved the Indo-European origins of the Tocharians, who not only built the fantastic Silk Road cities which today lie deserted, but who are also credited with bringing Buddhism, horses, the saddle, and iron working to China. This mummy was approximately 40-years old, was found in the main chamber of the same tomb. Her tall stature, high nose, and red hair indicate that she was of European descent.
http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/goldilocks1.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/goldilocks1.jpg)

Mummies from the Wupu cemetery

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy04.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy04.jpg)

This mummy of an 18 to 20 year old woman is on display at a museum in Khumul. Her features, particularly her overbite, indicate Caucasian heritage.

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy02.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy02.jpg)

A Tocharian man with red-blond hair; his clear European features still visible after nearly 3,500 years in his desert grave in Taklamakan. This mummified man was approximately 40 years old at the time of his death.

"Cherchen Man" and Family (China)

A family of immaculately preserved, 3,000-year-old caucasian mummies were found in East Turkistan, in 1978. Though it was commonly believed that the first contact between East Turkistan and the West occurred relatively late in world history — around the middle of the second century B.C. — carbon dating has shown that the Cherchen man and his family died 900 years earlier. They were preserved naturally by the salty and dry Chinese landscape.

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/cherchen_lg.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/cherchen_lg.jpg)



http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/yingpan_man.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/yingpan_man.jpg)

Meanwhile, Yingpan Man, a nearly perfectly preserved 2,000-year-old Caucasoid mummy, discovered in 1995 in the region that bears his name, has been seen as the best preserved of all the undisturbed mummies that have so far been found.
Yingpan Man not only had a gold foil death mask -- a Greek tradition -- covering his blonde bearded face, but also wore elaborate golden embroidered red and maroon garments with seemingly Western European designs.

His nearly 2.00 meter (six-foot, six-inch) long body is the tallest of all the mummies found so far and the clothes and artifacts discovered in the surrounding tombs suggest the highest level of Caucasoid civilization in the ancient Tarim Basin region.

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/loubeaut1.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/loubeaut1.jpg) http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/loubeaut2.jpg (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/loubeaut2.jpg)

One of the most famous Tocharian mummies found, the so-called "Beauty of Loulan"; and right, her face as reconstructed by an artist.
“Beauty of Loulan” The oldest mummies found in the Tarim Basin come from Loulan located at the east end of the egg shaped Taklamakan Desert. Dressed only in shades of brown, she was alive as early as 2000 B.C. during the era of Abraham and the patriarchs. She died when she was about 40. Next to her head there is a basket which contains grains of wheat.

Source (http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummies.htm)

[Osweo]

I would like to see the proof that these are the 'Tocharians' they're advertised as, rather than Sogdians. There were several Europid groups in the area, not just Tocharians.

[Aemma]

I would like to see the proof that these are the 'Tocharians' they're advertised as, rather than Sogdians. There were several Europid groups in the area, not just Tocharians.

Well now dear Oswiu you know what you must do, eh? Start a thread on the Sogdians and these other Europid groups of which you speak. ;)

Cheers!...Aemma

[Psychonaut]

I would like to see the proof that these are the 'Tocharians' they're advertised as, rather than Sogdians. There were several Europid groups in the area, not just Tocharians.

Yes, and since the genetic profiles of both groups would probably be very similar we may never truly know.

[Osweo]

Yes, and since the genetic profiles of both groups would probably be very similar we may never truly know.

I'd trust more old fashioned methods like those of proper attention to historical documents on the region, stating who was where and when, local folklore and ethnonyms and clan-names, all backed up with the real data of place-names.

The Sogdians (probably the Yuechi) seem to have been not too far from Tajiks in language, and thus Scytho-Iranian types, whereas the Tocharians form a family of their own in IndoEuropean, occasionally cited for western traits, such as being kentum rather than satem. There may be some genetic peculiarities reflecting this uniqueness, who knows.

[Cosmic Nordic Supremacy]

Blonds in the Far East and American Northwest
By Prof. Phillip Bonner


The idea that Caucasians inhabited both China and the North American continent thousands of years ago has never been acceptable to the anthropological establishment. But the discovery of blond mummies in China has caused a re-evaluation of this thesis, and whole new patterns of migration between the continents are now considered distinct possibilities.


In April 1994 the science magazine Discover published an epoch-making article called “The Mummies of Xinjiang.” Later advertisements for the magazine were to read “What are 4,000-year-old blond mummies doing in China?”

The article contains pictures of blond and red-haired mummies up to 4,000 years old from the Chinese province of Xinjiang.

The world-famous geneticist Luca Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford University, author of History and Geography of Human Genes, speculated that these were a few stray Europeans who somehow wandered thousands of miles east into China.

In the popular press there were a number of articles expressing astonishment that blond people had somehow wandered so far east so early.

Actually, some scholars who had taken the trouble to learn Chinese, Mongolian, Sogdian and other Oriental languages, as well as explorers and archeologists who had done research in Central Asia and China, had long ago figured out that white people from Europe played a major role in China since the beginning of civilization.

In 1939, Oxford University Press put out a book called Early Empires of Central Asia by William McGovern which goes into great detail about the role of white people in China and Central Asia. He quotes repeatedly from Chinese, Turkish and other historical records.

The blond mummies of Xinjiang are only the tip of the iceberg. There are skeletons, mummies, face masks, paintings, sculptures and vast historical records proving that white people have played a major role in Chinese history from the beginning.

Around 4,000 B.C. the horse was first domesticated by blond Indo-Europeans living in and around what is now Ukraine. They left the valleys and started a new way of life, that of the steppe nomad. These people had vast herds of cattle, goats, sheep and horses. They invented wagons and carts around 3,000 B.C. This nomadic group made the world’s first mobile homes, later called kibitkas, a huge wagon with far-apart wheels that carried a home constructed of wood and felt. These were pulled by up to 20 oxen.

From the riverbanks of Ukraine and Russia, this wandering tribe now spread out over the virtually uninhabited steppes, or grassland prairies. Their herds of animals provided them with meat, milk, clothing and felt. Their wagons provided them with mobility. They quickly spread in every direction through the steppes. Of note is a band of steppe between 50 and 600 miles wide and 6,000 miles long which stretches all the way from Central Europe to Manchuria, near the Pacific Ocean. Blond people speaking Indo-European languages quickly occupied this vast area.

Every several hundred years or so the steppe belt was hit with a drought. Animals and people started dying of hunger and thirst. This caused massive migrations out of the steppes. The first recorded time this occurred was around 2,000 B.C., when vast numbers of nomads poured out of the steppes and invaded Europe, Egypt, the Middle East, India and northwestern China.

Nordics just east of the Ural Mountains had invented the chariot just a hundred years earlier. This gave them a huge advantage in warfare. The similarities between chariots from the Caucusus Moun tains and China are astonishing. Chariots were associated with the ruling class in China as in Egypt, the Middle East, India and elsewhere.

In Gansu province, China, there has been found painted pottery, almost identical to pottery artifacts found in Tripolye, Ukraine and other places in between these locales. Pottery from Anau, Turk menistan, Susa, Iran and Trialeti, Romania are almost identical to pottery from the Honan and Gansu provinces of China.

Many words in ancient Chinese were borrowed from Indo-European, including words for chariot, horse, warrior, prince, spear, axe and ruler/emperor. Even the Chinese character for king comes from the west. In modern Chinese it is “wang,” but scholars tell us that the ancient Chinese pronounced it “gwang.” If we add the character for “white” to the character for “king” we get a character that is the symbol for “emperor.” If we add the character for “man” to the character for “white,” we have a character which means “duke.” In other words, a white man is a duke, and a white king is an emperor. The common people were called “the black-haired people.”

Chinese history is an endless repetition of the same pattern. In vad ers from the steppes conquer China, become Sinicized, intermarry with Chi nese, and become weak. Then they are conquered by a new wave of invasions from the steppes.

Even today frescoes of white people can be found in Ulan Bator, the capital of Mongolia. They have blue eyes and are said to be “arhats” or followers of Buddha.

The Mongols who conquered China and much of Eurasia in the 1200s were led by men who sometimes had red hair and blue or gray eyes. Marco Polo, who met Genghis Khan’s grandson Kublai Khan in person, describes him as being “white and ruddy.”

From 1644 to 1911, China was ruled by a Eurasian people called the Manchus. There were only one million Manchus. They spoke a language related to Turkish and Mongolian. They usually had white skins. Their features were a mixture of white and mongoloid. Boris Yeltsin, Lenin, Kemal Ataturk and the WWII Japanese Prime Minister Tojo are examples of this Eurasian type. The Manchus took Chinese wives and concubines. Large numbers of Chinese slaves and farmers immigrated to Manchuria. Today there are hardly any Manchus left, even in Manchuria. Under the Manchus the Chinese Empire reached its greatest territorial expansion, and included Man churia, Mongolia, Tibet, Xijiang as well as Taiwan and parts of Kazakhstan, Siberia, Korea, Burma and Vietnam at various times.

There are traces of the Caucasian race among the elite all over northeast Asia. The famous Japanese writer Yukio Mishima, who committed hara-kiri in a right-wing protest, relates in his autobiography that when he was a child he had blond hair. “My hair was blondish for a long time, but they kept putting olive oil on it until it finally turned black.”

Chinese metallurgy was derived from the Andronovo Indo-Europeans of the Minusinsk area of Siberia and from the copper experts of the White Indo-European Yueh-Chih of the Qichia culture of Gansu and Qinghai provinces.

Casual observers have long commented that American Indians appear to occupy an intermediate position between the white race and the Mongoloid race. Some tribes could pass for Chinese. Others seem to resemble Caucasoid peoples in Western Asia.

The general rule is that all American Indians have blood type O. However, there are two exceptions which point to the former presence of Caucasians. One is the blond and red-haired mummies from Peru, some of whom are A, B or AB. The other is among speakers of Na-Dene languages, who originated in the American northwest and western Canada.

Na-Dene speakers often are type A, which is very common in western Europe.

Amazingly, evidence has recently surfaced of Caucasoids having lived in the same vicinity, in Washington, Idaho, Montana and Nevada, around 7,000-2,500 B.C.

The magazine Archaeology, in its January/February 1997 edition, featured an article on Kennewick Man, a Caucasian who lived along the Columbia River in Washington State about 8,400 years ago. Anthropologist James Chatters told the New York Times, “I’ve got a white guy with a stone point in him . . . That’s pretty exciting, I thought I had a pioneer.” But then Catherine J. Mac Millan, professor emeritus of physical anthropology at Central Washington University, looked at the bones. “He’s a Caucasian,” she said, “but this type of arrowhead went out of use over 4,000 years ago.” It was dated to what is called the Cascade Phase, 7,000-2,500 B.C.

Some of the bones were sent to R. Ervin Taylor Jr. of the University of California, Riverside, for radiocarbon dating. The amazing result of the tests was that the bones dated to around 6,400 B.C.

Then, the federal government stepped in. Because of the age of the bones they were declared to be American Indian remains. Federal law prohibits desecration of American Indian remains, so the Corps of Engineers declared that the bones must be turned over to local Indian tribes for reburial. Scientists were ordered to stop all tests. Kennewick Man is now locked up under armed guard at the old Hanford, Washington nuclear waste depository. No one is allowed to study the bones or even look at them.

It’s ironic that Hanford, Washington, was chosen, as it once housed what was rumored to be the largest atomic bomb factory in the world. Perhaps Kennewick Man has explosive potential as well. On October 16, 1996 eight scientists filed suit against the Army Corps of Engineers in Federal District Court in Portland, Oregon, where the corps’ North Pacific division is headquartered, seeking access to the skeleton and to bar its reburial. Among those suing were Dennis J. Stanford, chairman of the Smithsonian’s anthropology department. He has seen the remains and knows them to be Caucasian.

A 1994 study by D. Gentry Steele and Joseph F. Powell, physical anthropologists at Texas A & M University, compared European, East Asian and American Indian skeletons. They concluded that American skeletons dated before 6,500 B.C. were somewhat like European skeletons, and more recent American Indians were somewhat like East Asians.

The federal government has prohibited scientists, reporters and even state legislators from having access to two other ancient Caucasians, one from Pyramid Lake and the other from Spirit Cave in Nevada. Scientists wanted to do DNA tests on 10,000-year-old reddish human hairs dug up in Montana, but, instead, the hair was turned over to local Indians for reburial. Another priceless treasure recovered in Buhl, Idaho was recently secretly buried by Indians, closing off forever any chance for scientists to study it. It was one of the best preserved skeletons on earth from around 6,000 B.C. In a letter published in the March/April 1997 edition of Archaeology, George A. Agogino, distinguished research professor emeritus at Eastern New Mexico University, wrote, “In the instance of another set of remains, from Buhl, Idaho; here was a rare paleoindian, very ancient American skeleton, of which only roughly a dozen are known, that the local Indian group secretly buried under state law . . .

“Had I murdered Jimmy Hoffa, one good way of disposal of the remains, after having them reduced to a skeleton, would be to tell some Indian group that the remains were definitely Indian and should be disposed of by them under the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA).”

Spirit Cave Man was found in 1940 by two Nevada state archaeologists. State Museum Curator Donald R. Tuohy writes, “This find represents the adaptation to desert oases which led to agriculture in several places on earth just after this time and may be significant in understanding the emergence of civilization.

“Complex textiles in Spirit Cave demonstrate a degree of sophistication in material technology that rivaled any on the planet at the time, and the preservation of these textiles exceeds any of comparable age.

“This is a world class discovery of significance to the understanding of humanity’s origins on a planetary scale.”

Carbon dating puts the Spirit Cave mummy at 9,415 years old. Dr. Douglas Owsley of the Smithsonian Institution examined both Kennewick Man and the Spirit Cave mummy and determined that both were Caucasians.

According to the legends of the Paiute Indians, when they arrived in the Spirit Cave area, it was inhabited by white giants with red hair. The Paiute “outsmarted” them by luring them into a cave and then setting fire to brush stacked around the entrance, burning or suffocating them to death. Nonetheless, the Paiute insist that the Spirit Cave mummy is one of their ancestors, and they want him buried without any more scientific tests whatsoever. Scientists are eager to do DNA tests to determine to what people the mummy is really related.

The hair on the Spirit Cave mummy is reddish brown. All of these ancient Americans resemble the modern white inhabitants of the American Northwest more than they do American Indians.

Amazingly, the latest research among the most advanced linguists in the world also points to unexpected connections between some languages spoken by white people and others spoken by American Indians. Merritt Ruhlen, of Stanford University, in a recent book called On the Origin of Languages, describes a new language super-family called Dene-Caucasian. “Dene” is the Navajo word for “Navajo.” This super language family includes Basque, the Athabaskan languages of Canada, Chechen and other Caucasus Mountains languages, a Siberian language called Ket, Tibetan, Chinese, the Alaskan language Tlingit, and Navajo.

The Dene-Caucasian people moved east from Spain all the way to Idaho around 8,000-6,000 B.C. Their ancestors could have been the people who painted bison in the caves of France and Spain around 30,000 B.C. In most areas they were replaced by later invaders. But isolated pockets of Dene-Caucasian re mained in northern Spain, the northern Caucusus, Siberia, China, and North America.

One of the earliest proofs of the existence of Caucasians in the Far East is in China, northeast of Beijing. In 1906 Japanese archaeologist Ryuzo Torii dug up a clay head at Niu Ho Liang. The head has Caucasian features, and is pink, with blue stones for eyes.The Japanese date it at 5,000 B.C. Everyone else dates it to around 3,500 B.C. Artifacts of similar cultures have been found all across far northern China, Mongolia, southern Siberia and northern Xinjing. It is speculated that these people spoke Altaic languages, the ancestors of Turkic, Mongolian, Manchu, and to some extent Korean, Japanese and Ainu.

Over 100 years ago an Englishman, A.H. Savage Landor, visited the lands of the Ainu in northern Japan and islands farther north now belonging to Russia. He wrote a book called Alone With the Hairy Ainu. He says that on the island of Shikotan, “one or two of the children had very fair hair.” Along the northeast coast of Yezo I came across several Ainu adults who had reddish hair and beard; and in the Kurile Islands, at Shikotan, several of the children had light auburn hair hanging in large loose curls and rather flaxy in texture . . .” Further, “Red hair, or hair with red shades in it, is common among the Ainu of the northeast coast of Yezo [now called Hokkaido], and also among the Kurilsky Ainu of Shikotan [Kurile Islands]. I saw some Ainu who, contrary to the rule, had red hair.”

Soviet anthropologist Levin also reported reddish hair and blue eyes among the Ainu and some natives of nearby parts of Siberia.

There was a tribe related to the Manchus called the Oroch, who lived in the vicinity of what is now Vladivostock, a Russian city on the Pacific Ocean near the North Korean and Chinese borders. The Chinese called these people Ch’ih Mao Tze, which means Red Hair People.

Strange as it may seem, the people of Mongolia were once non-Mongoloid. McGovern writes, “Thus, for example, in southern Siberia, in the region now inhabited by the Buriat Mongols, all of whom are now typically Mongoloid in appearance, archaeological work has brought to light a number of skeletons dating from an early period. All of these skeletons were markedly long-headed, in striking contrast with the modern Mon gol skulls, the great majority of which are round-headed. It is therefore, definitely established that in the very heart of Mongolian domain the characteristically round-headed race of the present day was preceded by a race of a very different type.

“So far archaeology has thrown little light on the problem of the coloration of this early long-headed race; but the Chinese records would lead us to believe that this early population had ‘red hair, green eyes, and white faces,’ and we have every reason to believe that this description is not greatly inaccurate. In this connection, however, it must be borne in mind that this long-headed and presumably blond type is known to have inhabited not Mongolia proper, but southern Siberia immediately north of Mongolia. It is quite possible, in fact probable, that this early, blond, long-headed type spread into northern Mon golia, and it is not at all impossible that in very early prehistoric times this type was predominant all over the Mongolian Plateau.”

Speaking of another people of the Chinese borderlands, McGovern states, “It so happens, however, that the Chinese have a tradition that the ancient Kirghis were decidedly blond in appearance, or, as the Chinese say, were tall with white skin, red hair and green eyes.”

Writing of the area where the blond mummies were found, he remarks, “To the west of Lake Lopnur was the ‘country of thirty-six principalities,’ or of the numerous city states. As we know al ready, the inhabitants of this region were practically all Indo-Europeans, the Wusun (which is Chinese for ‘descendants of the Crow’), and the Yueji (Moon People), and from the Turanian Huns in that they practiced agriculture and lived in walled towns and villages . . .

“To the north of Kashgaria lay the Tien Shan or Celestial mountains and beyond this Zungaria or the Ili Basin, still occupied by the Wusun.” According to Chinese legends, the first emperors, called “sons of heaven” originally came from the Tien Shan, or Mountains of Heaven, “which were surrounded by red-haired Indo-Europeans.”

He continues, “From the statement in Han Shu, 96a, 18b, that ‘From Dayuan westwards all the inhabitants have deep set eyes and are hairy,’ it is obvious that all the inhabitants of Turkestan at this period were predominantly Caucasoid in race.”

“Of far greater interest than either of the two above mentioned legends are the stories told concerning the intimate relationships existing between the ‘Northern Barbarians’ and the ancestors of the Chinese Emperors of the House of Jou (two periods—1122-770 and 770-256 B.C.) The Jou dynasty is generally regarded as the most glorious of all the Chinese ruling houses. Not only did the monarchs of this house rule over China for a far longer period than the members of any other dynasty, but it was during this period that the Five Classics were compiled. Also at this time the great sages, such as Confucius, Mencius and Laodse (Lao-tse) lived and wrote their works.” Portraits of Confucius usually show him as having Caucasian features.

“Considering this fact, it is rather surprising to find that the House of Jou owed its early fame to its connection with the wild barbarians of the north and west. When the ancestors of the Jou dynasty first definitely emerge upon the horizon of history, we find them to be feudal lords of a small community in the extreme northwest portion of China. In this region they were surrounded on all sides by various tribes of Northern Barbarians (who are called on this occasion Rung and Di).

“It will be remembered that the Yueji were nomads speaking an Indo-European language and living in Northwestern China [the present province of Gansu] and Northeastern Kashgaria.”

We find Mencius speaking of Wen Wang, the real founder of the Jou dynasty, as ‘a western barbarian.’ ”

A Hunnish general who took the Chinese capital Loyang in 311 A.D. was a hairy albino named Liu Yao, and Shi Huang Di, the emperor who built the Great Wall of China, was of western barbarian origin.

He writes: “. . . the second emperor of the Wei dynasty (386-535 A.D.), of Sienbi origin, had a long, yellow beard.”

The Chinese chronicles specifically state that the emperors came from a land “where the women’s skins were white.”

In his book Central Asia: Turk menia Before the Achaemenids, Vadim Masson tells us that there was a culture called the Tien Shan Culture. He explains that this is a variant of the Andronovo Culture, which was composed of white Indo-Europeans. It occupied a large area of Kazakhstan and parts of Siberia.

Jessica Rawson writes in a 1980 book called Ancient China, Art and Archae ology, about the incredible similarity between chariots in China and the Caucas. We now know that the chariots from both places came from the Ural Mountains area. From page 49: “Chariot burials: communications with western Asia: There is one further type of site excavated at Anyang and other parts of north China that provides important evidence for the late Shang period, the chariot burial. The chariot itself and two bronze items associated with it, a ‘jingle’ and a particular knife or dagger raise the question of outside influence. Although contacts between China and western Asia were rare in the early period, the introduction of the chariot suggests that the issue cannot be ignored.

“Chariots were apparently not known in China before the beginning of the Anyang phase of the Shang dynasty, circa 1300 B.C. The chariots of that date, which were evidently buried in connection with royal funerals, bear some resemblance to those found in burials in the Caucasus. They are similar in three distinctive respects: both types have a low, open-fronted box in which to ride, wheels with a large number of spokes, and felloes, or wheel rims, made of two bent pieces of wood. Even the burial of the chariot is a shared practice.”

The September 1996 issue of Antiquity had an interesting article about white people who lived just north of Beijing (Peking) in ancient times.

Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen of UC Berkeley studied the scholarly literature in Chinese, Turkish, Russian, German and English and reports to us about Caucasians in China: “Europoids in East Asia”:

“As the account of the massacre of the Hsiung-nu Chieh in Chao in 349 A.D. shows, the great majority of that people were Europoids. When Jan Min made himself lord of Chao in northern Honan, which until then had been ruled by the Chieh, he ordered the extermination of all Chieh. In and around Yeh more than 200,000 were slain. The Chieh soldiers were recognized by their high noses and full beards.

“Uchida Gimpu and I, independently of each other, adduced this characterization of the Chieh as proof of the existence of a Europoid group among the Hsiung-nu in the fourth century.” At any rate, by the middle of the fourth century there were Europoids among the Hsiung-nu.

“ ‘Liu Yuan, the Hsiung-nu conqueror of Lo-yang [the capital of China] in 311, was 184 centimeters tall; there were red strains in his long beard. An anecdote in the Shih-shuo hsin-yu, compiled by Liu Yi-ch’ing in the first half of the fifth century, shows that the Hsien-pei, who are supposed to have spoken a Mongolian language, were racially not Mongoloid. When in 324 Emperor Ming, whose mother, nee Hsun, came from the Hsien-pei kingdom of Yen, heard about the rebellion of Wang Tun, he rode into the camp of the rebels to find out their strength. He rode in full gallop through the camp. His puzzled enemies thought he was a Hsien-pei because of his yellow beard.

“The T’ang period falls outside the framework of the present studies. I mention only in passing the Europoid ‘Tokharians,’ depicted with their red hair and green eyes on the wall paintings in northern Hsin-chiang . . . The barbarian horsemen from Yu-chou in a poem by Li Po, probably Turks, had green eyes. Even later the Chinese know of Mongol Huang t’ou Shih-wei, ‘Shih-wei with the yellow heads,’ and Genghis Khan and his descendants had blond or reddish hair and deep-blue eyes.

“Yen Shih-ku’s often quoted descriptions of the Wu-sun, neighbors and hereditary enemies of the Hsiung-nu, seems to prove that at one time the Wu-sun were preponderantly Europoid: ‘Of all the barbarians of the western lands the Wu-sun look the most peculiar. Those barbarians who have cerulean eyes and red beards and look like Mi monkeys are their descendants.’

“Already at a time when only a small number of skulls from the territory held by the Wu-sun were known, they were recognized as Europoid . . . As late as the third century some Wu-sun were almost purely Europoid.

“The paleoanthropological work in Hsin-chiang has barely begun. It is, therefore, all the more remarkable that some of the skulls collected by the Sino-Swedish Expedition in 1928 and 1934 and studied by C.H. Hjortsjo and A. Walander point to Europoids of the northern type in the ancient population. Around the beginning of our era, Europoids of the Nordic type lived, thus both in the Semirech’e [Kazakhstan-China border region near the Tien Shan] and Hsin-chiang.”

Writing about the Mongols, Harold Lamb says of Genghis Khan (p. 37): “His ancestors, it is true, had been Borjigun, Blue-eyed Men, legendary heroes of the steppes.” Genghis Khan had red hair and gray eyes. Ogadai had gray eyes. Subotai, who conquered Cathay (China) had a long, reddish beard. Marco Polo described Kublai Khan as being very ruddy. The Arab writer Rashid ed Din wrote that people were surprised Kublai Khan had dark hair and eyes, because most of Genghis Khan’s descendants had reddish hair and blue eyes.

Professor Eberhard, an expert on ethnic groups in China, has this to say: “In 1980 Chinese archaeologists found in a tomb in the eastern part of Sinkiang province a female with red-blond hair. The tomb was dated from approximately 3,200 years before our time . . . Indo-Europeans . . . according to investigations of several sinologists, even reached the heart of north China sometime around 2000 B.C. or somewhat later . . . Archeological findings from the time of the Shang dynasty (1600-1050 B.C.) give us a different picture. Excavations of royal tombs at An-yang, a site that perhaps was the last capital of the Shang or at least the burial place of their leaders, have brought out many skeletons, some of which seem to belong to non-Mongol races. Although the excavations were done around 1935, the anthropological results are still not fully published, perhaps because the findings were somewhat embarrassing, just as Europeans would feel embarrassed if remnants of a black race were found in the midst of Europe (and there is a possibility that people with dark skin once inhabited parts of Europe). There are also rumors concerning excavations in Korea during the time of Japanese rule, namely that remains of non-Mongol people were discovered there, who were related to races found in Siberia.”

Until recently, Chinese archeologists had a bad habit of throwing away skeletons and looking only for artifacts.


BIBLIOGRAPHY

Archaeology Mar-Apr 1995; Anthony, David W. and Vinogradov, Nikolai B. “Birth of the Chariot: Excavations east of the Ural Mountains reveal traces of the first two-wheeled high-performance vehicles.”

Archaeology, Sept./Oct., 1996, “Oldest North American Mummy,” by Lara J. Asher. This reddish hair was carbon dated at 7420 B.C. It was stored at the Nevada State Museum in Carson City until it was confiscated by the federal government.

Feddersen, Martin, Chinesisches Kunst gewerbe, Berlin, Klinkhardt & Bierman Verlag, 1939; Ridley, Michael, Treasures of China, N.Y., Arco Publishing Co., 1973; and Childe, V. Gordon, The Aryans: A Study of Indo-European Origins, N.Y., Barnes & Noble, 1993.

Karlgren, Bernhard, Analytic Dictionary of Chinese and Sino-Japanese, N.Y., Dover, 1991.

Eberhard, Wolfram, China’s Minorities: Yesterday and Today, Belmont, Calif., Wadsworth Publishing Co., 1982; Eberhard, Wolfram, A History of China, Berkeley, Univ. of Calif. Press, 1977; and Ssu-ma, Ch’ien, Shih Chi Hsuan, Hong Kong, 1976.

Jisl, Lumir, Mongolei, Kunst und Tradition, Praha, Artia, 1960.

Bellonci, Maria, The Travels of Marco Polo, N.Y., Facts on File Publications, 1984.

Matson, R.G. and Coupland, G. The Pre-History of the Northwest Coast, Academic Press, Toronto, Canada.

Mishima, Yukio, Confessions of a Mask, N.Y., New Directions Publishing Co., 1958.

Jettmar, Karl, Art of the Steppes, N.Y., Crown Publishers, 1967; and Chung, Kwang-chih, The Archaeology of Ancient China, London, Yale University Press, 1986.

Cavalli-Sforza, L.L. and Cavalli-Sforza, Francesco, The Great Human Diasporas: The History of Diversity and Evolution, Sidney, Addison-Westley Co., 1995.

The Courier, 1-16-97, Finley, Tim, “Feds Blocking Research: Kennewick Man Was Not Alone.”

Mao, P’ei-ch’i, Sui Yueh, Ho Shan, Taipei, 1978.

Akademia Nauk SSSR, Institute Etnografi; edited by Levin, M.G. and Potapov, L.P., The Peoples of Siberia, Chicago, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1964.

Czaplicka, M.A., Aboriginal Siberia, A Study in Social Anthropology, Oxford, at the Clarendon Press, 1969.

Sekai Zenshi, Tokyo, Kodansha, 1994; 1953 Encyclopedia Britannica, “Confucius.”

Maenchen-Helfen, Otto J., The World of the Huns, Studies in Their History and Culture, Berkeley, University of Calif. Press, 1973.

Polo, Marco, The Book of Ser Marco Polo, Vol. I, translated and edited, with notes, by Colonel Sir Henry Yule, London, John Murray, 1929; also Michel’s Joinville; D’Ohsson, II; Erdmann.

Eberhard, China’s Minorities . . . , op. cit.
http://web.archive.org/web/20071221184342/http://barnesreview.org/html/august1997lead.html

[Cato]

Misleading, as it implies that ancient whites existed in China proper, which isn't true (not unless Qin Shihuang was a white emperor). It's better to say "Ancient whites in Central Asia."

[Osweo]

Misleading, as it implies that ancient whites existed in China proper, which isn't true (not unless Qin Shihuang was a white emperor). It's better to say "Ancient whites in Central Asia."

If discussion is only on the mummies in Uygurstan, then you are correct.

But the last post quotes things from places far more to the east. It's the first time I've read some of the points in English, but Gumilev was writing about this in the seventies, and quoting Russian translators of Chinese sources from the late Nineteenth Century.

I believe there IS grounds to suppose very ancient contacts with the Middle Kingdom. That the very dynasties should have come from the western nomads is unsurprising, as this has happened many times in the historical period.

I'm actually wondering if the author of the quoted material has read Gumilev's work on the Huns, as he seems to be repeating the same points raised (albeit in a necessarily journalistic manner).

Especially curious is THIS sort of thing;

Many words in ancient Chinese were borrowed from Indo-European, including words for chariot, horse, warrior, prince, spear, axe and ruler/emperor. Even the Chinese character for king comes from the west. In modern Chinese it is “wang,” but scholars tell us that the ancient Chinese pronounced it “gwang.” If we add the character for “white” to the character for “king” we get a character that is the symbol for “emperor.” If we add the character for “man” to the character for “white,” we have a character which means “duke.” In other words, a white man is a duke, and a white king is an emperor. The common people were called “the black-haired people.”

[Cato]

If discussion is only on the mummies in Uygurstan, then you are correct.

But the last post quotes things from places far more to the east. It's the first time I've read some of the points in English, but Gumilev was writing about this in the seventies, and quoting Russian translators of Chinese sources from the late Nineteenth Century.

I believe there IS grounds to suppose very ancient contacts with the Middle Kingdom. That the very dynasties should have come from the western nomads is unsurprising, as this has happened many times in the historical period.

I'm actually wondering if the author of the quoted material has read Gumilev's work on the Huns, as he seems to be repeating the same points raised (albeit in a necessarily journalistic manner).

Especially curious is THIS sort of thing;

Huang Di was a mythical figure from Chinese pre-history, the so-called Yellow Emperor who is the ancestor of the Huaxia (Han) people.

As is typical of Chinese this symbol has a various bit of meaning:

http://z.about.com/d/chineseculture/1/0/R/u/M/s_hwang.gif

Hwang, huang.

It can mean white, but also something like pure or blessed, if I remember correctly. It might also have something to do with white jade, since Chinese used to compare certain august people to having appearances as clear as [white] jade; Guan Yun Chang is an example, when he's described in the Three Kingdoms story as having an appearance as clear as jade or somesuch (he's a tall man with a clear complexion, often prone to redness in the face because of his righteous anger).

Huang is also a common familial name in China, past and present, and none of those who have it are white.

I can't find one of Di, but but Di doesn't mean man. The Chinese term in modern Madarin for man/person is Ren (Meiguoren, American man/person; Zhongguoren, Chinese man/person, etc.). I can see where some wanknut would combine Huang and Di and say OMG white lord of ancient China *fapfapfapfapfap* But...

Di means something like ruler or lord. The term for the indigenous Chinese supreme being was Shang Di, ruler of above or somesuch. Huang Di, the Yellow Emperor, was one of the prototypical models of the later Chinese sovereigns like Qin Shihuang Di (who applied legendary titles to himself to be above the other kings he defeated). Again with Guan Yun Chang, one of his other titles is Guan Di, or Lord Guan in English.

[Osweo]

Huang Di was a mythical figure from Chinese pre-history, the so-called Yellow Emperor
Was he really said to have come from the Tien Shan over in Uygurstan?

who is the ancestor of the Huaxia (Han) people.
Interesting term;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaxia

As is typical of Chinese this symbol has a various bit of meaning:

http://z.about.com/d/chineseculture/1/0/R/u/M/s_hwang.gif

Hwang, huang.

It can mean white, but also something like pure or blessed, if I remember correctly.
In Welsh and Irish too.

It might also have something to do with white jade, since Chinese used to compare certain august people to having appearances as clear as [white] jade; Guan Yun Chang is an example, when he's described in the Three Kingdoms story as having an appearance as clear as jade or somesuch (he's a tall man with a clear complexion, often prone to redness in the face because of his righteous anger).

Huang is also a common familial name in China, past and present, and none of those who have it are white.
HANG ON a minute!!!
You're barking up entirely the wrong tree!

The article talks about Wang (king), but doesn't say the name of the 'white' ideogram/phoneme!

Huang is yellow - a different word entirely! As in the great river Huang He. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_(surname)

I can see where some wanknut would combine Huang and Di and say OMG white lord of ancient China *fapfapfapfapfap* But...
This is not what the author does. He doesn't specify the term he has in mind, though. Slightly off putting, in fact. :ohwell:

Di means something like ruler or lord. The term for the indigenous Chinese supreme being was Shang Di, ruler of above or somesuch. Huang Di, the Yellow Emperor, was one of the prototypical models of the later Chinese sovereigns like Qin Shihuang Di (who applied legendary titles to himself to be above the other kings he defeated). Again with Guan Yun Chang, one of his other titles is Guan Di, or Lord Guan in English.
I recall from Gumilev that all emperors had Di appended to their ceremonial (in life) title.

Wiki says;

The first emperor of Qin (Qin Shi Huang) combined the two characters huang (皇 "august, magnificent") and di (帝 "God, Royal Ancestor") from the mythological tradition and the Xia and Shang dynasties to form the new, grander title "Huangdi".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nobility#Wang_.28King.29_and_Huangdi_.28Em peror.29 :shrug:


I was more intrigued by the word 'duke' which was claimed to be 'white + man'. I was already familiar with the way in which the Chinese call(ed?) themselves 'the Black Haired Ones', and to see this contrasted with 'white' in this way was interesting.

Ah, it seems to be 'Gong' for 'Duke';
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_(title)
but there's no attempt at an etymology. :cry2

Chinese linguistic history is a difficult subject, with a lot of politics involved. :(

I wish I could find the relevant part in my Russian books, but they're all still in zip files, or in a box a hundred miles away. :( I do recall tentative attempts to link the word 'fairy' with its European counterparts...

[Óttar]

More proof that Whitey hit the hanafs.

http://emigratetonewzealand.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/charas.jpg

[SwordoftheVistula]

The article talks about Wang (king)

I believe that's his personal commentary


*fapfapfapfapfap*

[Debaser11]

Is the OP a reader of Arthur Kemp? Just wondering in light of this post and the other one I saw on ancient whites in Peru.

[Psychonaut]

Osweo and Pallamedes, I don't know what's going on here, but it looks like you guys are getting your characters mixed up. Both wáng 王 and huáng 黄 are Chinese terms for ruler; the latter is the word for emperor, the former for king. Both are sometimes transliterated as wang. However, neither character has the word for white, bái 白 as a component. Going through the (http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E7%8E%8B&submitButton1=Etymology) etymologies (http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E9%BB%84&submitButton1=Etymology) of the characters (http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E7%99%BD&submitButton1=Etymology) shows us that at no point was bái a component of wáng or huáng.

P.S. Yes, huáng does mean yellow (not white) and di means "emperor" or "supreme ruler", making Yellow Emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_emperor) a literal translation of huángdi.

[Osweo]

Osweo and Pallamedes, I don't know what's going on here, but it looks like you guys are getting your characters mixed up. Both wáng 王 and huáng 黄 are Chinese terms for ruler; the latter is the word for emperor, the former for king. Both are sometimes transliterated as wang. However, neither character has the word for white, bái 白 as a component. Going through the (http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E7%8E%8B&submitButton1=Etymology) etymologies (http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E9%BB%84&submitButton1=Etymology) of the characters (http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E7%99%BD&submitButton1=Etymology) shows us that at no point was bái a component of wáng or huáng.

Aye, Psy, but can you make anything of the following claim;

If we add the character for “man” to the character for “white,” we have a character which means “duke.”

I suppose we'd be dealing with the most archaic terms, though. Or maybe this 'Prof. Phillip Bonner' feller made it up? :p

[Psychonaut]

Aye, Psy, but can you make anything of the following claim;

Let's see...

The only character I can find that combines both the "man" and "white" radicals is bó 伯, which means (http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/charsearch.php?searchChinese=1&zi=%E4%BC%AF): older brother; father's elder brother; senior male 'sire'; feudal rank 'count'. However, assuming that this denotes a white nobility lets us know that this supposed authority has no fucking clue what he's talking about. Most Chinese characters with multiple individual radicals (component characters) are not the sum of the individual meanings of the two radicals. More often than not, one radical will give a hint to the meaning and another to the pronunciation. When we look at this word's etymology (http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E4%BC%AF&submitButton1=Etymology), we see that this is the case. The 亻radical signifies that this character is some kind of person, but the 白 radical which, on its own, means "white," in this case is hinting at the character's pronunciation.

[Cato]

P.S. Yes, huáng does mean yellow (not white) and di means "emperor" or "supreme ruler", making Yellow Emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_emperor) a literal translation of huángdi.

I thought that I got this wrong, Bai is white, isn't it? :)

[Psychonaut]

I thought that I got this wrong, Bai is white, isn't it? :)

Yup. :nod:

That's why we're báirén and they're huángrén.

[Cato]

Yup. :nod:

That's why we're báirén and they're huángrén.

Gotcha.

[Cato]

The idea of ancient white overlords in China is something that I've seen black power cretins claiming, too, although it's far rarer. I think, if I remember the basis of the yarn, it's that Dravidians (who're black Africans too FYI) had some super-culture in the Times Before History (Harappa) that spread civilization to the Chinese. The Chinese, being racist of course, destroyed this evidence of the influence of peaceful black overlords on their ancient forefathers- just as the racist Greeks and Romans did after they stole black Egyptian culture. :rofl:

I can't even remember where I saw this (I think it was when I was Googling the Black Athena fable for shits & giggles one night, and I came across this), but I thought it was hilarious.

[lei.talk]

Originally Posted by Oswiu http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/jagohan/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=327790#post327790)...Gumilev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Gumilev) was writing about this in the seventies, and quoting Russian translators of Chinese sources from the late Nineteenth Century.

I believe there IS grounds to suppose very ancient contacts with the Middle Kingdom. That the very dynasties should have come from the western nomads is unsurprising, as this has happened many times in the historical period.

I'm actually wondering if the author of the quoted material has read Gumilev's work on the Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns)...




Originally Posted by Anti (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16240)-Nordicist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#Origins_of_Nordicism) http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/kiddo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=226761#post226761)
:clap2: "all your civilizational founders are belong to us (http://www.white-history.com/hwr6a.htm)" :clap2:
*

[Pallantides]

There is no Caucasoid/West Eurasian influnce in the Chinese, but plenty in the Uyghurs.


Uyghur
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8875/uygur10.png

Chinese
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7950/chinese10.png

Miaozu
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2706/miaozu10.png

[Cato]

I've talked to Chinese about this sort of thing before and the reaction is usually a sort of mild amusement (amongst those who know anything about China's history). Most of them aren't even aware that there're some whites who engage in this sort of pseudohistorical nonsense.

[Osweo]

That the very dynasties should have come from the western nomads is unsurprising, as this has happened many times in the historical period.
Originally Posted by Anti (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16240)-Nordicist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#Origins_of_Nordicism) http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/kiddo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=226761#post226761)
:clap2: "all your civilizational founders are belong to us (http://www.white-history.com/hwr6a.htm)" :clap2:
I see no cause for nordicist triumphalism here.

Nomads rode in and took over China whenever it was in crisis. The nomads were then absorbed, distorted, crippled and expelled/exterminated in national reawakenings.

To suggest that civilisation appeared there SOLELY due to western influences does not necessarily flow from these circumstances at all.

If anything, the West is experiencing the same as China did in its weak stages now. The Barbarians are swarming in. Where the nordicist would see the regular barbarian irruptions as an indication of the BASIS of Chinese civilisation being foreign, I just see a parallel to our own nasty phase. Happily, though, we see that China recovers each time... :chin:
To take the theoretical nordicist's position is to invite a similar appraisal of OUR civilisation. Was OUR statehood founded by Pakistanis? By this logic, a historian a few centuries by now might say this same!

*********************************

As for no genetic impact - where would we expect to find it? In the proletarian citizens of the People's Republic? Or in the old aristocrats who were murdered or expelled (several times down the millennia)?

**********************************

For the ultimate origins of statehood in China... well, I doubt we have the necessary data. What I've read seems to indicate a greater involvement of the 'Rong' - a now extinct people, probably of Tibetan stock... But the ultimate credit must go to the agricultural pioneers. ANd these DO seem to have been the preserve of the 'Black Haired Ones' themselves.

Emperors, Khans and Party Chairmen come and go, but the basis for any of it is still the organisation of the farmers and grass roots administrators who hold back the huge rivers and make the harvest possible.

[Cato]

For the ultimate origins of statehood in China... well, I doubt we have the necessary data. .

Jesus man...

The Chinese were keeping written historical records about 2,000 years before Alfred during the Zhou Dynasty (founded c. 1,000bce). They know their own indigenous history quite well, or do westerners with a racialist agenda know it better than they do? Put yourself in the shoes of a Chinaman in the know, such as Sima Chien. Chinese states, by their own native records, emerged in the wake of poltitical collapse the Zhou Dynasty. These states began to war amongst each other when the power of the kings of Zhou began to wane, hence the term Warring States Era (a period of prolonged civil war several centuries long), when the [feudal] states arose... The era of the feudal states ended when one feudal lord, Ying Zheng, the future Qin Shih Huang Di (First Emperor, aka one of the most influentuial men in world history) arose to crush his rivals and unify the Chinese nation for the first time in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian

Europe still exists in a feudal mindset. It awaits its own Second Emperor (Augustus was the first) to obliterate dissension and unify the continent. The ancient Chinese put their tribal problems behind them 30 centuries ago; north and south means little to them since all are part of the Sinic nation.

When will Europe do the same? You people here, and on forums like SF and SK, love to yell to each other about north and south being better or worse. Germanic vs. Romance. Hahaha. Chinamen in their coolie hats did centuries ago what you louts are still yammering about (i.e. unified their homeland and became a force to be reckoned with in the world). Northern Chinese used to have a term for the southern Chinese that translates into English as something like "barbarian in the south." Now there's little difference between Chinese in the north and south as far as they're concerned since the once "racially pure" pre-Han from about the Yangtze river area absorbed and assimilated the other peoples in their feudal and imperial wars.

Racialism lol.

[Osweo]

Jesus man...

The Chinese were keeping written historical records about 2,000 years before Alfred during the Zhou Dynasty (founded c. 1,000bce). They know their own indigenous history quite well, or do westerners with a racialist agenda know it better than they do? Put yourself in the shoes of a Chinaman in the know, such as Sima Chien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian

1,000 BC? The records we have today are little older than Herodotus's work. Books ABOUT ancient times aren't necessarily ancient themselves!

I'm not a 'Westerner with a racialist agenda', I'm a russophone reader of Eurasianist histories that are very sympathetic to the Chinese, in fact.

As such, I know your Sima Chien better as Сыма Цянь, indeed. He's from around Hannibal's day - nothing too impressive in age.

The development of statehood in China takes us beyond the historical period.

If Chinese try to tell you that this is all nicely recorded and known about, they're fobbing you off with patriotic feel-good nonsense.

[lei.talk]

Originally Posted by Thulean Imperial Inquisitor http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/jagohan/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2938#post2938) [. . .]

Originally Posted by B(.)(.)bzRAmazin http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/jagohan/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=331313#post331313) You're a fucking moron, you know that right?
..to present some evidence
that might substantiate your glib characterisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)?

[Cato]

1,000 BC? The records we have today are little older than Herodotus's work. Books ABOUT ancient times aren't necessarily ancient themselves!

I'm not a 'Westerner with a racialist agenda', I'm a russophone reader of Eurasianist histories that are very sympathetic to the Chinese, in fact.

As such, I know your Sima Chien better as Сыма Цянь, indeed. He's from around Hannibal's day - nothing too impressive in age.

The development of statehood in China takes us beyond the historical period.

If Chinese try to tell you that this is all nicely recorded and known about, they're fobbing you off with patriotic feel-good nonsense.

As an example of the ancientness of some of the Chinese writings, not of a historical quality, but they were writing down stuff at least at the beginning of the Zhou period (and probably earlier).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Songs_(Chinese)

The Book of Songs (Traditional Chinese: 詩經; Simplified Chinese: 诗经; pinyin: Shī Jīng; Wade-Giles: Shih Ching), translated variously as the Classic of Poetry, the Book of Odes, and often known simply as its original name The Odes, is the earliest existing collection of Chinese poems and songs. It comprises 305 poems and songs, some possibly from as early as 1000 BC. It forms part of the Five Classics.

Written records in China predate Sima Chien (2nd century bce); he's just considered to be more authoritative than latter historians like Chen Shou (3rd century ce). Basically, he did what Livy did when he wrote his history of Rome (compiled archaic and legendary events into an ordered format). He was a scribe and a scholar, and like all of his kind, he was familiar with the old writings in China (those of the Confucians, the Moist school, and whatnot).

Historiography isn't really what the Chinese are well-known for anyways. Rather, I'd say it's their philosophy, which supposedly begins with the founders of the Zhou Dynasty like King When, Duke Wu, and Zhou Gong Dan. These worthies supposedly invented the hexagram system that became the basis for the Book of Change. The early Zhou rulers also popularized the concept of the Mandate of Heaven, divine right, to explain the overthrow of the Shang monarchy.

[Psychonaut]

As an example of the ancientness of some of the Chinese writings, not of a historical quality, but they were writing down stuff at least at the beginning of the Zhou period (and probably earlier).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Songs_(Chinese)

Yup. It's still no where near as old as the development of Cuniform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform), but writings in the Oracle Bone Script (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone_script) go back well past 1000 BC.e

[Cato]

Yup. It's still no where near as old as the development of Cuniform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform), but writings in the Oracle Bone Script (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone_script) go back well past 1000 BC.e

I didn't even think of the inscriptions on the oracle bones. Those things are from the Shang period, I believe, which began around c. 1,600bce.

[Psychonaut]

I didn't even think of the inscriptions on the oracle bones. Those things are from the Shang period, I believe, which began around c. 1,600bce.

Ja. They're also most likely the source of the Yì Jīng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yijing).

[Cato]

Ja. They're also most likely the source of the Yì Jīng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yijing).

The divination and hexagram book, I believe. King Wen was supposed to have initiated the rites that became the basis for the I Ching.

[Psychonaut]

The divination and hexagram book, I believe. King Wen was supposed to have initiated the rites that became the basis for the I Ching.

Much of it probably predates him specifically, since the roots go back into the Shāng Dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_dynasty) (which directly preceded King Wén's Zhōu Dynasty).

[Osweo]

As an example of the ancientness of some of the Chinese writings, not of a historical quality, but they were writing down stuff at least at the beginning of the Zhou period (and probably earlier).
Sure, but even this is late in the day when it comes to the first steps to statehood by the Yellow River.
********

1000 BC
(2nd century bce);
(3rd century ce).
You kids crack me up... :p

well past 1000 BC.e
Psy's doing a neither/nor, too! :D

I see nothing 'common' in a 'Common Era'. The sole purpose of this terminology is to remove the word 'Christ' from public life and scholarship. Puerile in the extreme! Stop pandering to this craziness! 2010 years ago, there was nothing going on to date anything from but the floruit of a man who founded the most widespread religion on Earth. I don't see him as a god or saviour, but I accept that our dating system is based on him and see no point in coming up with another to confuse everyone. :thumb001:

[Cato]

Much of it probably predates him specifically, since the roots go back into the Shāng Dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_dynasty) (which directly preceded King Wén's Zhōu Dynasty).

But iirc, divination with turtle shells largely faded out during the Zhou period, but I seem to recall Confucius mentioning it still being practiced by some in the Warring States era. The I Ching was commentated upon extensively during this period, and the Confucians thought that the correct performance of even these ancient rites, especially by the rulers, was proper for an orderly society.

What the Shang did as a means of oracular ritual, the later periods continued to support as a ceremonial fashion.

[Cato]

Sure, but even this is late in the day when it comes to the first steps to statehood by the Yellow River.
********

You kids crack me up... :p

Psy's doing a neither/nor, too! :D

I see nothing 'common' in a 'Common Era'. The sole purpose of this terminology is to remove the word 'Christ' from public life and scholarship. Puerile in the extreme! Stop pandering to this craziness! 2010 years ago, there was nothing going on to date anything from but the floruit of a man who founded the most widespread religion on Earth. I don't see him as a god or saviour, but I accept that our dating system is based on him and see no point in coming up with another to confuse everyone. :thumb001:

I copied the part from Wikipedia and didn't change it, 1,000bc is what the Wiki author wrote, not I.

Given that the focus of my life isn't Christological, I prefer the bce/ce distinction.

Our I could say it's 2765 auc, or year 5771 for the Jews. :eek:

[Psychonaut]

But iirc, divination with turtle shells largely faded out during the Zhou period, but I seem to recall Confucius mentioning it still being practiced by some in the Warring States era. The I Ching was commentated upon extensively during this period, and the Confucians thought that the correct performance of even these ancient rites, especially by the rulers, was proper for an orderly society.

What the Shang did as a means of oracular ritual, the later periods continued to support as a ceremonial fashion.

The standardization of the Yì Jīng may indeed have reached its zenith in the Zhōu, but the methodologies from which this standard form was culled certainly originated in the Shāng or earlier.

[Cato]

The standardization of the Yì Jīng may indeed have reached its zenith in the Zhōu, but the methodologies from which this standard form was culled certainly originated in the Shāng or earlier.

Getting into the realm of legend, and I think Fuxi was regarded by some as the founder of Chinese divination. :D

[Psychonaut]

Getting into the realm of legend, and I think Fuxi was regarded by some as the founder of Chinese divination. :D

Yeah, but that's as historically accurate as the Rúnatáls þáttr Óðins. ;)

[Osweo]

Given that the focus of my life isn't Christological, I prefer the bce/ce distinction.
Mine's far less so, but given that I live in a world with others less educated, I stick to traditional forms, out of convenience and respect. My Mother wun't know what the fuck I was on about if I said summat happened in '447 CE'. Sounds more like a chemical isotope than a year.

I'm not allergic to Christ, and see this removing his name while keeping the same system as little short of petty. Seems motivated by little other than a bad attitude to our traditions and culture. Was some Jewish Communist behind it!?

Our I could say it's 2765 auc, or year 5771 for the Jews. :eek:
We could say all sorts of bullshit, like the years of the Hajj, or the xxth year of the reign of Elizabeth II, or start again and call it 'Year 1', but and this is the important thing, most people wun't know what we were on about.

If BCE and CE are so commonly known in America now, i can only feel sorry for you. :( But do your parents' generation understand what 'CE' is?

[Electronic God-Man]

If BCE and CE are so commonly known in America now, i can only feel sorry for you. :( But do your parents' generation understand what 'CE' is?

BCE and CE are mandatory now in most American universities, and so it's what any person who's been through the system will use.

I would have rather just stayed with BC and AD, but you actually get penalized for using that system. They say it's "incorrect".

[Cato]

Yeah, but that's as historically accurate as the Rúnatáls þáttr Óðins. ;)

Well, it makes for a good yarn, with a bit of a moral story tossed into it as well. Odin hanging on the World-Tree for days and days in agony can just be turned into something more utilitarian, such as people must often suffer for a prolonged period of time in order to gain wisdom.

I really don't analyze tales of that sort too intellectually, so saying Odin learned the runes from suffering on the World-Tree is something that I take for granted as happening, like the death of Jesus on the cross (an event that I don't really see as happening in the commonly-accepted way, if at all).

Tales, yarns, myths, just serve to entertain and teach to me. So, Fuxi might as well be the founder of I Ching divination. :)

[Osweo]

you actually get penalized for using that system. They say it's "incorrect".

That's frightening. :(
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3571/ussrflag.png

I remember my TX ex being shocked at seeing 'BC' in an archaeological essay of mine from universtity, yes.... :rotfl: :(

AH.................... Wiki is ... reticent on naming names, putting a load of fluff in before it gets to the point;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era

Some Jewish academics were already using the CE and BCE abbreviations by the mid-19th century, such as in 1856, when Rabbi and historian, Morris Jacob Raphall used the abbreviation in his book, Post-Biblical History of The Jews.[62] As early as 1825, a different abbreviation, VE, had already been in use among Jews to denote years on the Western calendar.[63]

Although Jews have their own Hebrew calendar, they often find it necessary to use the Gregorian Calendar as well. The reasons for some using Common Era notation are described below:

“ Jews do not generally use the words "A.D." and "B.C." to refer to the years on the Gregorian calendar. "A.D." means "the year of our L-rd," and we do not believe Jesus is the L-rd. Instead, we use the abbreviations C.E. (Common or Christian Era) and B.C.E. (Before the Common Era). ”
—Tracey R Rich, Judaism 101

Common Era notation has also been in use for Hebrew lessons for "more than a century".[65]

I'll stick with the Jarrow man;

Numbering years in this manner became more widespread with its usage by Bede in England in 731. Bede also introduced the practice of dating years before the supposed year of birth[32] of Jesus, and the practice of not using a year zero.[33]

Kommunyagi;

Communist Eastern Germany used v. u. Z. (vor unserer Zeitrechnung, before our chronology) and u. Z. (unserer Zeitrechnung, of our chronology) instead of v. Chr. (vor Christus, before Christ) and n. Chr. (nach Christus/Christi Geburt, after Christ/the Nativity of Christ). The use of the terms still differs regionally and ideologically. In Hungary, similarly to the Bulgarian case, i. e. (időszámításunk előtt, before our era) and i. sz. (időszámításunk szerint, according to our era) are still widely used instead of traditional Kr. e. (Krisztus előtt, Before Christ) and Kr. u. (Krisztus után, After Christ), which were unofficially reinstituted after the Communist period.
**
In Poland generally the only used term is naszej ery/przed naszą erą (of our era/before our era). The terms przed Chrystusem/po Chrystusie (before Christ/after Christ) are possible but nearly never used in contemporary Poland.
Similarly in Russian. 'Do Nashei Ery' vs. Do Rozhdestva Khristova;

до нашей эры, до н. э.; альтернативная форма До Рождества Христова.
Название часто используются в религиозной форме «от Рождества Христова», сокращённая запись — «от Р. Х.».

Common Sense;

Astrobiologist Duncan Steel argues that if one is going to replace BC/AD with BCE/CE then one should reject all aspects of the dating system (including time of day, days of the week and months of the year) as they all have origins related to pagan, astrological, Jewish and Christian beliefs. Steel makes note of the consistency of the Quaker system (now rarely used), which removed all such references, and rejects religious arguments against BC/AD as selective.[22][23]

Anthropologist Carol Delaney argues that the substitution of BC/AD to BCE/CE is merely a euphemism that conceals the political implications without modifying the actual source of contention.[24][25] English language expert Kenneth G. Wilson speculated in his style guide that "if we do end by casting aside the A.D./B.C. convention, almost certainly some will argue that we ought to cast aside as well the conventional numbering system [that is, the method of numbering years] itself, given its Christian basis."[26]


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, the Spanish Wiki has more detail;
A Jewish epitaph in 1812 in Plymouth, DEVON! :eek:

La primera utilización de este recurso se encuentra en una tumba judía en Plymouth (Inglaterra):

Aquí está enterrado Su Excelencia Judah ben su excelencia Joseph, príncipe y honorado entre filántropos, que ejecutó buenos hechos, murió en su casa en la ciudad de Bath, el martes y fue sepultado aquí el sábado del 19 de sivan del año 5585. En memoria de Lyon Joseph Esq (comerciante de Falmouth, Cornwall) que murió en Bath en junio del Anno Mundi de 5585, EV 1812. Querido y respetado.

Esta inscripción utiliza el calendario hebreo (5585), pero termina con un año común, 1825. Seguramente EV (escrito en inglés como VE) significa ‘era vulgar’ y es posible que se haya utilizado en lugar de «a. C.» para evitar implicaciones cristianas.


OH FUCK.

It's starting HERE NOW;

AD and BC become CE/BCE

By Indira Das-Gupta Last updated at 00:00am on 19.02.02 :eek:

In what could be seen as their greatest victory to date, politically correct campaigners have succeeded in getting schools to scrap the Christian calendar.

Breaking with centuries of tradition, the terms "BC" and "AD" are to be replaced with a system known as the Common Era. The two dating schemes are identical and both use the birth of Christ as their starting points, but the secular version does not acknowledge this.

The Latin term Anno Domini, meaning in the year of our Lord, becomes Common Era, or CE, and Before Christ becomes Before the Common Era, or BCE.

The term "common" refers to the fact that the Christian calendar is the most frequently used around the world. The move has sparked outrage among Church leaders. The Rev Rod Thomas of Reform, the Church of England's evangelical network, said: "What they are attempting to do is educate children into believing there is a way of measuring our calendar that takes its dates from an event, the significance of which, they are trying to deny.

"The whole of the Western calendar has been based on BC and AD. To change that for no good reason is to do a disservice to our youngsters."

Colin Hart, from the Christian Institute, said: "This is ridiculous. Between three and four per cent of people in Britain are of a non-Christian faith. This is about white liberals imposing political correctness in schools to ensure children are cut off from the past, for fear of upsetting someone.

"Of course, it is perfectly acceptable to offend the vast majority."

Panels comprising teachers, councillors and religious representatives advise councils in England and Wales on religious education syllabuses.

But defending the change, a spokesman for the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority said: "It's not a question of one way is wrong and one is right, more a question of which is most commonly used.

"CE/BCE is becoming an industry standard among historians.

"Pupils have to be able to recognise these terms when they come across them."

Have any Britons encountered this, especially those with kids at school???

[Motörhead Remember Me]

This thread is for articles on ancient Whites in China.

I guess that ancient Whites never really existed in the form a Nordic supremacist may wish ...



The region of China where the tomb is located, Xinjiang, is considered an original source of many cannabis strains worldwide.

But thanks for this important piece of information:thumb001: