Isn't humiliating for romance speakers use English in PM?

[Foxy]

I was messaging with a Portuguese user and I noticed that we both used English, although he probably would understand me if I wrote in Italian and vice versa. I stopped for a while from writing and though "WTF!"
Shouldn't we try to use a romance language AT LEAST when we write to each others? Is it a too stupid idea?

[Rudel]

Je préfèrerais que chacun me parle en sa langue plutôt qu'en anglais (du moment que c'est une langue romane).

Il est vrai qu'il est assez humiliant d'être forcés à parler le patois infâme de la perfide Albion.

[Han Cholo]

Je préfèrerais que chacun me parle en sa langue plutôt qu'en anglais (du moment que c'est une langue romane).

Il est vrai qu'il est assez humiliant d'être forcés à parler le patois infâme de la perfide Albion.

Para mí, personalmente es bastante dificil entender francés. Pude entender el contexto de tu mensaje porque eran unas cuantas oraciones, pero estoy seguro que si te hubiera escuchado hablar me sonaría bastante extranjero.

Con el italiano "standar" me pasa lo contrario. Es más fácil entenderlo cuando hablan que cuando lo escriben.

[hobosmurf]

Isn't it much more efficient to have a single lingua franca?

[Gaston]

Humiliating? Well, most romance-speakers of Europe could be humiliated by the fact they've lost forever their pre-roman languages.
And also, there are huge differences between modern Romance languages so you can't actually understand 100% of another romance language unless you studied it enough. French has one of the most non-romance influence in its vocabulary so it's probably hard to understand it (unless English is spoken too, ironically).

I don't understand all Spanish because of the consonant changing (among others) like facere > hacer.



There was until recently a Romance-based lingua franca in the Mediterranean by the way, called Lingua Franca or Sabir.

[Han Cholo]

With languages like Romanian or Moldovan is even harder. While their pronounciation is more "standard latin" it is hard to get the context (as it has weird morphological features such as preserving declensions.)

[Rudel]

Isn't it much more efficient to have a single lingua franca?
Oui, le français. :cool:


Para mí, personalmente es bastante dificil entender francés. Pude entender el contexto de tu mensaje porque eran unas cuantas oraciones, pero estoy seguro que si te hubiera escuchado hablar me sonaría bastante extranjero.
De toda maneras todo el mundo está escribiendo aquí. En este contexto, pienso que la comprensión no es insuperable.

[Methusalem]

With languages like Romanian or Moldovan is even harder. While their pronounciation is more "standard latin" it is hard to get the context (as it has weird morphological features such as preserving declensions.)

Do you understand French, Portugese and Italian?

[Han Cholo]

Do you understand French, Portugese and Italian?

Understand to some extent. I can write Portuguese also, not the others.

[Virtuous]

E allora perche non impariamo il Latino, propio come nei tempi Romani...OH KE LINGVA MAGNA.

[Smaug]

Caso seja espanhol ou italiano, pode usar sua língua nativa, agora se for francês ou romeno, por favor, use inglês. Grato, grazie, gracias.

[Empecinado]

Jo no tinc cap problema en entendre qualsevol llengua romanç (excepte el romanés), a més vaig estudiar francés molts anys a l'escola i enca que se m'ha oblidat en gran part puc entendre-lo perfectament. Aixina que parleu-me en la vostra llengua si parleu una llengua llatina, molt millor que fer-lo en anglés.

[Smaug]

Let's all use English as our lingua franca and that's it.

[Agron]

I was messaging with a Portuguese user and I noticed that we both used English, although he probably would understand me if I wrote in Italian and vice versa. I stopped for a while from writing and though "WTF!"
Shouldn't we try to use a romance language AT LEAST when we write to each others? Is it a too stupid idea?
I have some Portuguese and Italian friends, and when they try to speak to each other in their languages they don't understand each other.. I speak french, but I can't understand Portuguese, Italian a little bit, but I wouldn't be able to have a conversation with someone who only speaks italian.

[Also]

We should use Classic Latin as our lingua franca, like in the good old times.

[Smaug]

We should use Classic Latin as our lingua franca, like in the good old times.

Fuck Latin, every Western European should speak their original Celtic language.

[Neanderthal]

No, I love Indo-European languages.

[Armand_Duval]

¿Humillante?...¿Porque ha de serlo?.

Si lo consideras humillante no entres a un foro donde el ingles se usa como lengua comun, asi de sencillo.:picard1:

[Rudel]

por favor, use inglês

Let's all use English as our lingua franca and that's it.
Easier to say when you're from an English colony to begin with.


I have some Portuguese and Italian friends, and when they try to speak to each other in their languages they don't understand each other.. I speak french, but I can't understand Portuguese, Italian a little bit, but I wouldn't be able to have a conversation with someone who only speaks italian.
I used to date a Russian who couldn't speak anything else than Russian and Italian. And I don't speak Russian or Italian. Everything went well.

[Lucifer]

qu'est-ce qui sépare deux obsédés sexuels de trois salopes ? une porte de cockpit

:D

[The Alchemist]

No, romance languages are ugly (even if they're my mothertongue), if everyone spoke german would be much cooler...it's the most beautiful language ever.

[Smaug]

Let's all speak Welsh.

[YeshAtid]

No, romance languages are ugly (even if they're my mothertongue), if everyone spoke german would be much cooler...it's the most beautiful language ever.
How are they ugly?

[dralos]

Je préfèrerais que chacun me parle en sa langue plutôt qu'en anglais (du moment que c'est une langue romane).

Il est vrai qu'il est assez humiliant d'être forcés à parler le patois infâme de la perfide Albion.
edhe une jam dakord me ty

[Peyrol]

Je préfèrerais que chacun me parle en sa langue plutôt qu'en anglais (du moment que c'est une langue romane).

Il est vrai qu'il est assez humiliant d'être forcés à parler le patois infâme de la perfide Albion.

So, ok, let's try with a romance language: Orobich Lombard:


Me sö d'acörch a baià sö en le prope lenghë, a lè ö nos derëch...men-e-mà, me so cert c'ha neghü a l'è bù da capì töch ch'èl che skrif.


...ok? Understood? :p

[Peyrol]

I have some Portuguese and Italian friends, and when they try to speak to each other in their languages they don't understand each other.. I speak french, but I can't understand Portuguese, Italian a little bit, but I wouldn't be able to have a conversation with someone who only speaks italian.

Brazilian portuguese is 10000000 times easier than european portuguese.

[Neanderthal]

So, ok, let's try with a romance language: Orobich Lombard:


Me sö d'acörch a baià sö en le prope lenghë, a lè ö nos derëch...men-e-mà, me so cert c'ha neghü a l'è bù da capì töch ch'èl che skrif.


...ok? Understood? :p

Estoy de acuerdo ? en lo de la propia lengua(?) a los ? más o menos, ? es cierto ????? didn't understand the rest. How did I do?

[Smaug]

Brazilian portuguese is 10000000 times easier than european portuguese.

It's the same language, only slangs are different.

[The Alchemist]

How are they ugly?

I don't like the sound. Spanish is ok, but i don't like the others.

[Peyrol]

Estoy de acuerdo ? en lo de la propia lengua(?) a los ? más o menos, ? es cierto ????? didn't understand the rest. How did I do?

Let's try a plurilanguage traslation of the same sentence:

Ostlombard: Me sö d'acörch a baià sö en le prope lenghë, a lè ö nos derëch...men-e-mà, me so cert c'ha neghü a l'è bù da capì töch ch'èl che skrif.

(Standard) Italian: io sono d'accordo a parlare nelle proprie lingue, è un nostro diritto...però (or also comunque, nonostante, quindi, etc), (io) sono sicuro che nessuno è in grado di capire tutto quel che scrivo

Castillian: Estoy de acuerdo que cada uno habla su idioma, es nuestro derecho...pero estoy seguro que nadie es capaz de entender todo lo que escribo.

[Geminus]

You could use Latin, like in the good old times.

O tempora o mores...

[YeshAtid]

I don't like the sound. Spanish is ok, but i don't like the others.

You're largely correct. Semitic languages sound better imo.

[The Alchemist]

Latin and german are the coolest ones, imo. But latin is too difficult, german is much more useful nowadays.

[Rudel]

So, ok, let's try with a romance language: Orobich Lombard:
Me sö d'acörch a baià sö en le prope lenghë, a lè ö nos derëch...men-e-mà, me so cert c'ha neghü a l'è bù da capì töch ch'èl che skrif.
...ok? Understood? :p

"I agree to chat in our respective tongues, as it's our right. This being said, I'm sure nobody is able to understand all that's written."
Did I guess right ?

Lei convencion d'escritura dins la lengua lombarda son un pau dificile.

[The Alchemist]

You're largely correct. Semitic languages sound better imo.

Russian, greek, romanian and arab are much more pleasant than the latin ones, imo.

[Corvus]

Latin and german are the coolest ones, imo. But latin is too difficult, german is much more useful nowadays.

German is the best language ever invented, it has a well structured grammer, a nice stock of words and it is really noble and at the same time practical. Also the sound is fluid and really pleasing for the ear.
I am really grateful that I am able to speak this wonderful language.

[The Alchemist]

German is the best language ever invented, it has a well structured grammer, a nice stock of words and it is really noble and at the same time practical. Also the sound is fluid and really pleasing for the ear.
I am really grateful that I am able to speak this wonderful language.

Referring to pronounciation, the german ones is undoubtly the most gorgeous ever....so strong and clear, impossible to resist it. To me is always a pleasure to hear it, unlike french.

[YeshAtid]

Russian, greek, romanian and arab are much more pleasant than the latin ones, imo.

Romanian is a latin based language

[The Alchemist]

Romanian is a latin based language

But has a rather slavic pronounciation, dunno why i like it. Also modern greek.

[Peyrol]

"I agree to chat in our respective tongues, as it's our right. This being said, I'm sure nobody is able to understand all that's written."
Did I guess right ?

Lei convencion d'escritura dins la lengua lombarda son un pau dificile.

Pare di si, ma per riprodurre alcuni suoni, seguo le direttive di Piazza Pontida...nel lombardo orobico alcuni suoni possono solamente essere riprodotti con le ''lettere germaniche''.
Ma essendo mia madre originaria delle valadas bergamasche, non è un problema.
A Bergamo e nei dipartimenti limitrofi tutti parlano lombardo orobico, anche i maghrebini ed i negri :lol:

Il lombardo insubrico (milanese, comasch, ecc. ecc) è molto più morbido e comprensibile come linguaggio:

(i recently heard some people saying that insubric lombard and catalan sounds similar...lol, that's false :lol:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDxU8MuKal8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX_T3RVhCv8

[Rudel]

Russian, greek, romanian and arab are much more pleasant than the latin ones, imo.
Romanian is a Latin language. And that's the one that pretty much nobody can understand.

Everybody hates Arab, Russian sounds dumb to most Romance speakers and Greek... Well, I actually love Greek.

German has merits, but I don't really think highly of it.

Anyway, it wasn't a thread to determine "who's the best" or to say "Romance language are shit, stop speaking them and speak our retarded languages instead".

It's a thread for Romance speakers, in a Romance section. Not happy ? Bugger off.

[YeshAtid]

But has a rather slavic pronounciation, dunno why i like it. Also modern greek.

I guess there is some overlap with neighbouring countries

[Empecinado]

This is IMO one of the best sounding languages, Aragonese. I think it's pretty difficult to understand even for Romance speakers:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoOkNMK5-Kc

[Han Cholo]

No, romance languages are ugly (even if they're my mothertongue), if everyone spoke german would be much cooler...it's the most beautiful language ever.

Ainstaindaschscrenfuche, das die reinkirtfreuegauen du fickensteinenberger?

No gracias. Si a esas vamos, podemos ladrar entonces.

[Agron]

Easier to say when you're from an English colony to begin with.


I used to date a Russian who couldn't speak anything else than Russian and Italian. And I don't speak Russian or Italian. Everything went well.

Well maybe you're very talented :D I think I wouldn't be able to be deep in conversation with someone who don't speak a language that I also speak.

A friends cousin migrated from Portugal to Switzerland lately, and we were not really able to have good conversations, because he didn't speak neither french nor german, only portuguese, of course we could communicate together, but not really more, if you understand what I mean.

[Damião de Góis]

I have some Portuguese and Italian friends, and when they try to speak to each other in their languages they don't understand each other.. I speak french, but I can't understand Portuguese, Italian a little bit, but I wouldn't be able to have a conversation with someone who only speaks italian.

It's possible on written mode, but it's difficult on spoken mode because our language is kind of difficult. Not even spanish people understand us, or at least that's what they say.

[Agron]

It's possible on written mode, but it's difficult on spoken mode because our language is kind of difficult. Not even spanish people understand us, or at least that's what they say.

Well maybe, but when I read portuguese I don't have the feeling to understand much of the content..
But do you understand spanish? A lot of portuguese friends have told me that they don't understand spanish either.

[Damião de Góis]

Well maybe, but when I read portuguese I don't have the feeling to understand much of the content..
But do you understand spanish? A lot of portuguese friends have told me that they don't understand spanish either.

Sure, but some spanish accents are difficult like some Andalusian ones. As for written spanish sometimes i don't understand some loose words but i get most sentences.

[Agron]

Sure, but some spanish accents are difficult like some Andalusian ones. As for written spanish sometimes i don't understand some loose words but i get most sentences.

One thing I wanted to write also, it is not just written portuguese that I don't understand, but pretty much all latin languages except french.

[Ianus]

No problem if the other don't speaks Italian.

[Han Cholo]

Yo considero que el inglés es una lengua parcialmente romance también. El sesenta porciento de su vocabulario proviene del Latin (o Griego también.) Por lo tanto, si consideramos "razones ideológicas" viene siendo algo similar que hablar Francés o Rumano.

I consider that English is a language that is partially romance too. Sixty percent of its vocabulary comes from Latin (or Greek too). Therefore, if we consider "ideological reasons" it would be something similar to speak French or Rumanian.

Vieron que sencillo?

[Empecinado]

Sure, but some spanish accents are difficult like some Andalusian ones. As for written spanish sometimes i don't understand some loose words but i get most sentences.

Even for Spaniards to get some Andalusians accents we need to pay attention while listening.

[Han Cholo]

Even for Spaniards to get some Andalusians accents we need to pay attention while listening.

Los (algunos?) Chilenos son lo peor en este aspecto.

[Empecinado]

Los (algunos?) Chilenos son lo peor en este aspecto.

Sin duda, hablan como el ojete.

[B01AB20]

Con los que estoy familiarizado no tengo demasiados problemas; gallego, portugués, francés, italiano(standard :) ), pero con los minoritarios o raros que nunca antes he visto u oido... ya se pueden denominar 'romance' y tener el vocabulario 100% derivado del latín, pero parecen chino a primera vista.

Pero con poco 'entrenamiento' enseguida se aprende lo básico de otras lenguas romances, esa es la ventaja. Para aprender lo básico de ruso a alemán tienes que poner un esfuerzo 100 veces mayor.

[Neanderthal]

Que será más fácil de aprender para una persona de habla Española o Castellana; ¿Italiano, Portugués o Francés? En lo personal a mi el Francés me resulta un poco más complejo de entender que el Italiano y Portugués.

[Han Cholo]

Que será más fácil de aprender para una persona de habla Española o Castellana; ¿Italiano, Portugués o Francés? En lo personal a mi el Francés me resulta un poco más complejo de entender que el Italiano y Portugués.

Italiano yo creo. La escritura está rara, pero fonéticamente es más fácil de pronunciar. En el portugués es lo contrario, y a menudo que trates de hablarlo pronunciarás las palabras en español ya que inconscientemente te sonarán como barbaridades pronunciadas en portugués.

[Gaston]

Let's all speak Welsh.

Could be a good idea for Breton-speakers. Breton doesn't sound good to me, I can't stand it actually.

[Rudel]

Could be a good idea for Breton-speakers. Breton doesn't sound good to me, I can't stand it actually.
À côté du breton, le gallois est une torture.

[Gaston]

À côté du breton, le gallois est une torture.

Quelle langue celtique préfères-tu? Moi j'aime pas le breton, on dirait du baragouin parisien.

[Smaug]

Quelle langue celtique préfères-tu? Moi j'aime pas le breton, on dirait du baragouin parisien.

How can you dislike it? Celtic languages are beautiful. And your username is Welsh for "to play". :P

[Rudel]

Quelle langue celtique préfères-tu? Moi j'aime pas le breton, on dirait du baragouin parisien.
Je vais dire le breton, ne serait-ce que par patriotisme. Et puis même si je n'ai pas d'affinité particulière avec, c'est toujours plus articulé (la phonologie des dialectes bretons étant fortement calée sur le français) que le reste.


How can you dislike it? Celtic languages are beautiful. And your username is Welsh for "to play". :P
To us, Welsh just sounds like a throat disease. And Gaelic is so far away from the way it's written it competes in the same league as French.

[Smaug]

Je vais dire le breton, ne serait-ce que par patriotisme. Et puis même si je n'ai pas d'affinité particulière avec, c'est toujours plus articulé (la phonologie des dialectes bretons étant fortement calée sur le français) que le reste.


To us, Welsh just sounds like a throat disease. And Gaelic is so far away from the way it's written it competes in the same league as French.

Indeed, Gaelic lacks a proper phonetical convention.

[Gaston]

How can you dislike it? Celtic languages are beautiful. And your username is Welsh for "to play". :P

I like Welsh actually, that's why I said breton-speakers can learn from it. I also like Gaelic but reading and writing it is difficult.

As you can see, Rudel and I don't really share the same opinion despite having the same mother tongue. But I am sure most people in France would share his views rather than mine. Thus, Rudel is more representative of French people.

[Smaug]

I like Welsh actually, that's why I said breton-speakers can learn from it. I also like Gaelic but reading and writing it is difficult.

As you can see, Rudel and I don't really share the same opinion despite having the same mother tongue. But I am sure most people in France would share his views rather than mine. Thus, Rudel is more representative of French people.

Why? Aren't you fully French?

[Peyrol]

Que será más fácil de aprender para una persona de habla Española o Castellana; ¿Italiano, Portugués o Francés? En lo personal a mi el Francés me resulta un poco más complejo de entender que el Italiano y Portugués.

Prova il rumeno:


http://youtu.be/SKkHUIlTMHU

[Han Cholo]

Prova il rumeno:


http://youtu.be/SKkHUIlTMHU

Lenguaje bastante poderozo, en lo personal me gusta bastante, pero sigo sin entenderle una mierda. Puedo reconocer algunas palabras pero es casi imposible captar el concepto real.

Suena como un albanés mucho más latinizado. En realidad no le encuentro mucha influencia eslava ni en fonética ni léxico.

[Smaug]

Romanian is very hard to understand, maybe the least Latin Romance-language, together with French.

[Methusalem]

Ainstaindaschscrenfuche, das die reinkirtfreuegauen du fickensteinenberger?

No gracias. Si a esas vamos, podemos ladrar entonces.

wtf is this shit?xD Looks like german but makes zero sense.

[Peyrol]

Lenguaje bastante poderozo, en lo personal me gusta bastante, pero sigo sin entenderle una mierda. Puedo reconocer algunas palabras pero es casi imposible captar el concepto real.

Suena como un albanés mucho más latinizado. En realidad no le encuentro mucha influencia eslava ni en fonética ni léxico.

Questa è la seconda lingua più parlata in Italia (e nella mia medesima città), circa due milioni di immigrati rumeni.

Se lo visualizzi scritto pare molto, ma molto più semplice come linguaggio.

La Romania in Italia è famosa non per il suo linguaggio, ma per altre sue ''doti naturali'': :lol:


http://youtu.be/hEz5V4aIa0g

[Peyrol]

Romanian is very hard to understand, maybe the least Latin Romance-language, together with French.

Have you ever heard spoken fòrlan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language

That's an hard language...and is spoken here in the northeast (Friuli Venezia Giulia and formerly Istria)...listen for example from 1:45:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysTa7KdnW_o



^

do you understand something?

[Smaug]

Have you ever heard spoken fòrlan?

That's an hard language...and is spoken here in the northeast (Friuli Venezia Giulia and formerly Istria)...listen for example from 1:45:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysTa7KdnW_o

^

do you understand something?

Yes, I've already heard it in a video you posted, sounds Slavic-ish.

[Peyrol]

Yes, I've already heard it in a video you posted, sounds Slavic-ish.

Well, just see the geographical diffusion of the language and you can understand why:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Friuli-Venezia_Giulia_in_Italy.svg/611px-Friuli-Venezia_Giulia_in_Italy.svg.png


here former northeastern borders (before 1954):

http://digilander.libero.it/freetime1836/libri/Immagine1friuli.jpg




^

Furlan is member of the East Romance languages (specifically, a Rhaeto-Romance language), so structurally closer to romanian (and to the extinct dalmatian language and nearly-exticnt istriot) than to other romance languages.

[Han Cholo]

Yes, I've already heard it in a video you posted, sounds Slavic-ish.

Not really.

[Smaug]

Not really.

Yes really.

[Han Cholo]

Yes really.

What sounds slavic about it? I don't see any Slavic influence. It sounds far less Slavic than Romanian, and Romanian doesn't sound very Slavic to start with. If anything, South Slavic languages are more Latin influenced than the other way around. Most of the Yugo nations were Romance speaking before Slavization.

[Peyrol]

Anyway, one of the most difficult romance language ever existed is probabily ligurian.

This was the motherlanguage of Columbus...i can imagine the navigatore landing in Santo Domingo and imprecating in old ligurian :lol:

Listen from 1:00 (and also enjoy the pictures...this is Liguria)...it's very difficult to understand:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoVxtw5V3GQ


Lyrics:


Umbre de muri muri de mainé
dunde ne vegnì duve l'è ch'ané
da 'n scitu duve a l'ûn-a a se mustra nûa
e a neutte a n'à puntou u cutellu ä gua
e a muntä l'àse gh'é restou Diu
u Diàu l'é in çë e u s'è gh'è faetu u nìu
ne sciurtìmmu da u mä pe sciugà e osse da u Dria
e a funtan-a di cumbi 'nta cä de pria
E 'nt'a cä de pria chi ghe saià
int'à cä du Dria che u nu l'è mainà
gente de Lûgan facce da mandillä
qui che du luassu preferiscian l'ä
figge de famiggia udù de bun
che ti peu ammiàle senza u gundun

E a 'ste panse veue cose ghe daià
cose da beive, cose da mangiä
frittûa de pigneu giancu de Purtufin
çervelle de bae 'nt'u meximu vin
lasagne da fiddià ai quattru tucchi
paciûgu in aegruduse de lévre de cuppi

E 'nt'a barca du vin ghe naveghiemu 'nsc'i scheuggi
emigranti du rìe cu'i cioi 'nt'i euggi
finché u matin crescià da puéilu rechéugge
frè di ganeuffeni e dè figge
bacan d'a corda marsa d'aegua e de sä
che a ne liga e a ne porta 'nte 'na creuza de mä

[Smaug]

What sounds slavic about it? I don't see any Slavic influence. It sounds far less Slavic than Romanian, and Romanian doesn't sound very Slavic to start with. If anything, South Slavic languages are more Latin influenced than the other way around. Most of the Yugo nations were Romance speaking before Slavization.

Less Slavic than Romanian indeed.

[肃杀]

How can you dislike it? Celtic languages are beautiful. And your username is Welsh for "to play". :P

This man is right. They are beautiful, and in my opinion, Welsh is the most beautiful out of them all. :)

[Comte Arnau]

I opened a thread about Easy Romance time ago. If something similar was taught in schools, there would certainly be a lot of intercomprehension among Romance speakers of all nations, at least at a standard written level.

Besides, pan-Romance vocabulary is quite consistent, and almost as frequent as that of the Slavic languages, certainly much larger than that of the Germanic ones. What I mean is that creating a unified Romance language is easier than creating a unified Germanic one.

[Smaug]

This man is right. They are beautiful, and in my opinion, Welsh is the most beautiful out of them all. :)

Diolch iawn fy ffrif. I agree, and it is also easier when compared to Gaelic.

[Peyrol]

I opened a thread about Easy Romance time ago. If something similar was taught in schools, there would certainly be a lot of intercomprehension among Romance speakers of all nations, at least at a standard written level.

Besides, pan-Romance vocabulary is quite consistent, and almost as frequent as that of the Slavic languages, certainly much larger than that of the Germanic ones. What I mean is that creating a unified Romance language is easier than creating a unified Germanic one.

It would be sufficient the revival of vulgar latin (and not the pompous vatican latin), the real ancestors of our languages.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtVwnMWl9M

[Scandalf]

Humiliating? Well, most romance-speakers of Europe could be humiliated by the fact they've lost forever their pre-roman languages.
And also, there are huge differences between modern Romance languages so you can't actually understand 100% of another romance language unless you studied it enough. French has one of the most non-romance influence in its vocabulary so it's probably hard to understand it (unless English is spoken too, ironically).

I don't understand all Spanish because of the consonant changing (among others) like facere > hacer.



There was until recently a Romance-based lingua franca in the Mediterranean by the way, called Lingua Franca or Sabir.

One thing I'm noticing now is that French looks very similar to Friulano. Wierd!

[Comte Arnau]

It would be sufficient the revival of vulgar latin (and not the pompous vatican latin), the real ancestors of our languages.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtVwnMWl9M

The problem with Vulgar Latin is that most words are not documented but reconstructed, as the video says. However, it's true that most reconstructed forms are almost obvious.

I agree, the vowels should be the ones of Vulgar Latin. Even the distinction between lax and tense I and U are not necessary. So basically, the vowels should be those of modern Standard Italian or Western Catalan: A, È, É, I, Ò, Ó, U.

As for consonants, it's even easier. R should preferably be trilled. V should preferaby be distinguished from B. H should be written but mute. And in my opinion, C+E/I should be pronounced TS, an intermediate option between French/Portuguese/Catalan "s", Spanish "z", and Italian/Romanian "ch". :)

[MissProvocateur]

Nah, I speak Spanish, but I rather use English since it is a simple and practical language. Don't get me wrong, rimance languages are beautiful, just not the most practical.

[Comte Arnau]

Nah, I speak Spanish, but I rather use English since it is a simple and practical language. Don't get me wrong, rimance languages are beautiful, just not the most practical.

English isn't simple, you've just been taught and exposed to the language in a way that you find it so now.

French was very practical for the elites only two centuries ago. It's just a matter of habits.

[MissProvocateur]

English isn't simple, you've just been taught and exposed to the language in a way that you find it so now.

French was very practical for the elites only two centuries ago. It's just a matter of habits.

I suppose. Both of my grandparents speak french fluently, along with spanish, italian and/or german, yet they find English a horrendous and difficult language. Times change. I think this forum revolves around the English language, thus people spwak English even if they are both capable of speaking to each other in their mother tounge.

[Comte Arnau]

I suppose. Both of my grandparents speak french fluently, along with spanish, italian and/or german, yet they find English a horrendous and difficult language. Times change. I think this forum revolves around the English language, thus people spwak English even if they are both capable of speaking to each other in their mother tounge.

Exactly. We are not objective about that, we've grown up listening to English in a way or another. But our grandparents usually consider it an ugly language. To my grandpa, all English speakers sounded like Donald duck and you had to use an umbrella in front of them to protect you from spit. Times change indeeed.

However, even I have English in a much better consideration and I find it just logical that it is the main language in the forum, I'd say the OP was also referring to real life situations. Whenever I'm abroad with a Romance-language speaker, I never use English, unless I see they really feel comfortable in it.

[Rudel]

It would be sufficient the revival of vulgar latin (and not the pompous vatican latin), the real ancestors of our languages.
Researches around vulgar Latin are purely academical, a full and accurate language can't be made out of it.

Plus Classical Latin is good. That's the only alternative language I'd consider.

http://www.ac-grenoble.fr/lycee/diois/Latin/spip.php?article6445


One thing I'm noticing now is that French looks very similar to Friulano. Wierd!
Wut.


And in my opinion, C+E/I should be pronounced TS, an intermediate option between French/Portuguese/Catalan "s", Spanish "z", and Italian/Romanian "ch". :)
I hate affricates so much I purportedly avoid them while speaking foreign languages. That's what Peyrol would call "pronouncing your "z" like "ss".


Exactly. We are not objective about that, we've grown up listening to English in a way or another. But our grandparents usually consider it an ugly language.
I speak English fluently and still think it's shit. :p

[Comte Arnau]

Researches around vulgar Latin are purely academical, a full and accurate language can't be made out of it.

It is far easier to reconstruct any words for Vulgar Latin than it is for Proto-Germanic, let alone Indo-European.


Plus Classical Latin is good. That's the only alternative language I'd consider.

Classical Latin is great and the language I'd use for Europe if it was in my hands. But it is way apart from the modern Romance languages. However, Vulgar Latin would be easily understood by Latin Europeans. In fact, it shouldn't be called "Vulgar Latin", but "Proto-Romance".


I hate affricates so much I purportedly avoid them while speaking foreign languages.

As I said, it could be pronounced as a simple S. :)


That's what Peyrol would call "pronouncing your "z" like "ss".

?

[Peyrol]

I



?

I think Rudel is referring to the (we) piemonteses, who (unlike other italians) don't pronunce the ''zz'' sound but tend to pronunce an ''s'' or a ''ss''...example: ''ti ringrazio molto'' will be ''ti ringrassio molto'' etc etc.
Another typical peculiarity is the pronunciation of the ''e'' with a sound that can sound strange...something like ''ië'' (this goes for all the volcals, except for ''a''and ''i'')...in my mom's village, East Lombardy, when i was a teen people always made fool of me because of this...so, ''cioccolato fondente'' will be pronunced as ''(s)cioccolato fondiënte''...also the pronunciation of the ''s'' is like a whizz.

[Comte Arnau]

Oh, I see now. Interesting.

[Peyrol]

Oh, I see now. Interesting.

This is (was?) a peculiarity of turines dialect (almost died, less than 400,000 speakers) but also of langhèe piemonteis.

Hear for example this 1947 song in turines (lyrics on screen):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPkYG8rVWCg

Here an old song in southern piemontese (Coni), performed by Lou Dalfin (lou dalfin's singer is an occitan native speaker from the Valadas) where you can hear the peciliarity too:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FrOjifhVFQ

[Wolf]

What's the problem? Over the half of the English vocabulary is of Latin and Romance origin. So, you already have quite a lot of Romance words while speaking English.



German has merits, but I don't really think highly of it.

No real surprise.



Ainstaindaschscrenfuche, das die reinkirtfreuegauen du fickensteinenberger?

:crazy:



English isn't simple, you've just been taught and exposed to the language in a way that you find it so now.

At least the English grammar is really simple compared to other Indo-European languages.

[Comte Arnau]

At least the English grammar is really simple compared to other Indo-European languages.

It is true that some grammar aspects in modern English are more simple than in other European languages, but that does not make English a 'simple language', as people usually say. English is not Esperanto. There are features in the English grammar that are difficult indeed, and the common use of phrasal verbs is almost a nightmare. Not to mention the complicated phonology and the apparently arbitrary spelling.

[Rudel]

It's still extremely easy coming from French, by far the easiest language to learn. Much more than Spanish, for example.

[Peyrol]

English is heavy latinized, despite some claims on the Anthrophoras and even on this board by some people.
That's why we italics made a lot of ''italianismi'' in english.

[Gaston]

At least the English grammar is really simple compared to other Indo-European languages.

A recent study on weirdness (complexity) showed Hindi to be the least weird of all languages they analysed (http://idibon.com/the-weirdest-languages/).

[Incal]

I was messaging with a Portuguese user and I noticed that we both used English, although he probably would understand me if I wrote in Italian and vice versa. I stopped for a while from writing and though "WTF!"
Shouldn't we try to use a romance language AT LEAST when we write to each others? Is it a too stupid idea?

For experience I know that lusophones can understand us but we can't understand them that good. Also, we can understand Italian better than Italians can understand Spanish. Personally, I don't have any problem communicating in this forum in any of the 3 main romance variants: Spanish, Portuguese and Italian. I don't know about the rest though.

[ficuscarica]

Using English or another Germanic language is never humiliating:
http://www.microworld.org/sites/files/hdi_13.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

English is heavy latinized, despite some claims on the Anthrophoras and even on this board by some people.
That's why we italics made a lot of ''italianismi'' in english.

But that's a tricky thing. The fact that a Latin/Romance word exists in English does not mean they're goint to use it just as frequently. In fact, they tend to see them as more formal words used for writing, preferring those weird phrasal verbs in their everyday speech. :)


A recent study on weirdness (complexity) showed Hindi to be the least weird of all languages they analysed (http://idibon.com/the-weirdest-languages/).

What shows that coherency and difficulty are not that related. Basque might be coherent from an objective point of view but it's difficult as fuck.

[Geminus]

Wow, German is the 10th weirdest language. I think contributing factors are the relatively random assignment of genders to words and the (at least theoretically) free placement of words in sentences.
But what else is so weird in German? :D

[Incal]

But what else is so weird in German? :D

Having to switch the order of the verbs just because you put "because" or "that" in front. Verbs that split, etc...

[Comte Arnau]

and the (at least theoretically) free placement of words in sentences.


I don't see German as a language where placement of words is that free. Verbs usually have to be in the second position, for instance.

[Rudel]

A recent study on weirdness (complexity) showed Hindi to be the least weird of all languages they analysed (http://idibon.com/the-weirdest-languages/).
Hungarian is among the least weird languages.

http://static4.fjcdn.com/comments/Somebody+call+the+sWAT+team+someone+just+broke+the +law+_ee96a5b72089d1478b85c02ec7d1451b.jpg

[Peyrol]

Even for Spaniards to get some Andalusians accents we need to pay attention while listening.

Andalusian is still part of the castillian continuum...or not?

To me sound not so much different from ''standard'' castillian.

[Leo Iscariot]

So then what, we should speak to one another in our respective Romance language?

[Peyrol]

So then what, we should speak to one another in our respective Romance language?

There were only two ''panromance'' languages in history: one it's obviously (vulgar) latin, and the other one was the mediterranean lingua franca, the Sabir...from wikipedia:


The Mediterranean Lingua Franca, or Sabir, was a pidgin language used as a lingua franca in the Mediterranean Basin from the 11th to the 19th century

Based mostly on Northern Italian languages and Occitano-Romance languages in the eastern Mediterranean at first, it later came to have more Spanish and Portuguese elements, especially on the Barbary coast (today referred to as the Maghreb). Sabir also borrowed from Berber, Turkish, French, Greek and Arabic. This mixed language was used widely for commerce and diplomacy and was also current among slaves of the bagnio, Barbary pirates and European renegades in pre-colonial Algiers. Historically the first to use it were the Genoese and Venetian trading colonies in the eastern Mediterranean after the year 1000.

As the use of Lingua Franca spread in the Mediterranean, dialectal fragmentation emerged, the main difference being more use of Italian and Provençal vocabulary in the Middle East, while Ibero-Romance lexical material dominated in the Maghreb. After France became the dominant power in the latter area in the 19th century, Algerian Lingua Franca was heavily gallicised (to the extent that locals are reported having believed that they spoke French when conversing in Lingua Franca with the Frenchmen, who in turn thought they were speaking Arabic), and this version of the language was spoken into the nineteen hundreds, witness Schuchardt. Holm's suggestion that it was this variety of Lingua Franca which through relexification developed into Algerian French seems somewhat far-fetched – as can be seen from Lanly's study, Algerian French was indeed a dialect of French, although Lingua Franca certainly had had an influence on it. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that Lingua Franca did have an impact on Algerian French. Lingua Franca also seems to have had an impact on other languages. Eritrean Pidgin Italian, for instance, displayed some remarkable similarities with it, in particular the use of Italian participles as past or perfective markers. It seems reasonable to assume that these similarities have been transmitted through Italian foreigner talk stereotypes.[3]

Hugo Schuchardt was the first scholar to investigate the Lingua franca systematically. According to the monogenetic theory of the origin of pidgins he pioneered, Lingua Franca was known by Mediterranean sailors including the Portuguese. When Portuguese started exploring the seas of Africa, America, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a Portuguese-influenced version of Lingua Franca with the local languages. When English or French ships came to compete with the Portuguese, the crews tried to learn this "broken Portuguese". Through a process of relexification, the Lingua Franca and Portuguese lexicon was substituted by the languages of the peoples in contact.

This theory is one way of explaining the similarities between most of the European-based pidgins and creole languages, like Tok Pisin, Papiamento, Sranan Tongo, Krio, and Chinese Pidgin English. These languages use forms similar to sabir for "to know" and piquenho for "children".

Lingua Franca left traces in today's Algerian slang and Polari.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca



example of written Sabir: ''Se ti saber, ti responder... Se non saber, tazir, tazir!''


^

was indeed a very interesting language.

[Leo Iscariot]

There were only two ''panromance'' languages in history: one it's obviously (vulgar) latin, and the other one was the mediterranean lingua franca, the Sabir...from wikipedia:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca



example of written Sabir: ''Se ti saber, ti responder... Se non saber, tazir, tazir!''


^

was indeed a very interesting language.

Interesting, I never knew such a thing existed.

[Peyrol]

Interesting, I never knew such a thing existed.

Yep, it's a shame that disappeared...it would have worked great as panromance lingua franca.

[Leo Iscariot]

Yep, it's a shame that disappeared...it would have worked great as panromance lingua franca.

I'm sure if the need arose it could be brought back, assuming there's enough records about it to reconstruct it.

[Comte Arnau]

Here it's a forum for everyone to read, but IRL I don't allow speakers of other Romance languages to use English with me. No Barbarian among Neo-Romans. :cool:

[SKYNET]

Buna ziua oameni buni, prietenii mei dragi! Ce faci? Hai sa vorbim despre Latin! :D :D :D
Noroc!

[Empecinado]

Andalusian is still part of the castillian continuum...or not?

To me sound not so much different from ''standard'' castillian.

"Andalusian" is not a local culture neither an accent, it's a 40 years old administrative division that includes different local cultures and accents, relatively distinct from each other. These cultures and to some extent accents are basically a continuum of the neighbooring Castilian regions, for example Jaen is undoubtely South Castilla and they have the same accent than them, as well Almeria it's a continuum from Murcia (Castilla) and have the same accent than them too, and curiously they have some Catalan and Aragonese influences in the surnames, words they use and folklore. They are closer to these Castillian regions than they are to each other.

It's a common mistake to lump all "Andalusians" as the same local culture, when reallity is that they have differences in accent, mindset, folklore...

[Kataxu]

"Andalusian" is not a local culture neither an accent, it's a 40 years old administrative division that includes different local cultures and accents, relatively distinct from each other. These cultures and to some extent accents are basically a continuum of the neighbooring Castilian regions, for example Jaen is undoubtely South Castilla and they have the same accent than them, as well Almeria it's a continuum from Murcia (Castilla) and have the same accent than them too, and curiously they have some Catalan and Aragonese influences in the surnames, words they use and folklore. They are closer to these Castillian regions than they are to each other.

It's a common mistake to lump all "Andalusians" as the same local culture, when reallity is that they have differences in accent, mindset, folklore...

Então, a cultura monolítica andaluza é uma mentira completa? Tem vídeos para olhar a diferença?

[Kataxu]

Eu não me sinto ofendido de falar Inglês, é algo muito necesario no día de hoje. Mas eu sempre prefiro falar em uma lingua romance. É muito engraçado olhar e ler o espanhol ou italiano.

[Empecinado]

Então, a cultura monolítica andaluza é uma mentira completa? Tem vídeos para olhar a diferença?

Es una completa mentira, no existe esa estereotípica cultura andaluza . A nivel de música

Verdiales:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhGTVXK7Uvw

Jota:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql7RUbrSAP4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-H_Hfu7x8I

Sevillana:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=PL76BBA3BB3C97F5C2&v=L7fi2oIGL0M

Chirigotas:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vISdEhnGHk

Saetas:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfpGi51Drag

[Peyrol]

Então, a cultura monolítica andaluza é uma mentira completa? Tem vídeos para olhar a diferença?

La cultura andalusa è come la ''cultura italiana monolitica'' dalla Lombardia alla Sicilia: un' invenzione, non esiste storicamente ne è mai esistita.

[Empecinado]

Andalucía, después de la conquista castellana fue despoblándose de moros y el espacio que dejaban fue siendo ocupado por cristianos procedentes de los reinos cercanos, que a su vez eran descendientes de los cristianos que repoblaron sus tierras. Así es como funcionó la Reconquista, en un principio oleadas de cristanos del sur huyendo del Islam emigraron al norte, y cuando los reinos cristianos comenzaron a extenderse hacia el sur, la población cristiana (incluyendo los descendientes de aquellos cristianos del sur de España) fue ocupando las tierras recién conquistadas.

Andalucía oriental, que es una zona de campiña (countryside) como la Toscana italiana, fue repartida además de a los que participaron en su conquista, a la nobleza y a las órdenes militares. Esto creó concentraciones de tierras en unas pocas manos (latifundismo) y fue repoblada por cristianos en su mayor parte procedentes de Extremadura y de Castilla. Las zonas montañosas de Cádiz, que fueron frontera con el emirato de Granada, fueron repobladas por gallegos. La provincia de Cádiz antes se llamaba Banda Gallega (frontera gallega) por esta razón.

Andalucía occidental en cambio es una zona más montañosa y agreste, y no latifundista. Fue repoblada por gente procedente de Castilla y de Murcia en su mayor parte (algunos de ellos valencianoparlantes, incluso el idioma valenciano se habló en el Andarax almeriense hasta el siglo XVII), algunas zonas como Sierra Morena estaban despobladas y a finales del siglo XVIII se trató de acabar con la despoblación crónica fundando colonias de alemanes, suizos, nor-italianos y holandeses católicos.

Conocer los movimientos sucedidos principalmente en la Reconquista a mi modo de ver es fundamental para comprender cosas como la homogeneidad de fenotipos en España, el por qué los andaluces genéticamente están mucho más al norte de lo que les correspondería por su posición geográfica, las diferentes mentalidades, el folklore, el acento y las lenguas, etc.

[curiousman]

example of written Sabir: ''Se ti saber, ti responder... Se non saber, tazir, tazir!''



Funny, it sounds like a proposition of Wittgenstein :D

[Incal]

Eu não me sinto ofendido de falar Inglês, é algo muito necesario no día de hoje. Mas eu sempre prefiro falar em uma lingua romance. É muito engraçado olhar e ler o espanhol ou italiano.

Pienso lo mismo.

[Kataxu]

Pienso lo mismo.

Simplesmente é um mal necessário. Eu penso que de qualquer forma não é tão ruim, mais da metade do inglês é latin.

[Comte Arnau]

Então, a cultura monolítica andaluza é uma mentira completa? Tem vídeos para olhar a diferença?

Cada província andalusa és ben bé un món. Com a mínim, caldria fer una clara distinció entre l'Andalusia occidental o baixa i l'Andalusia oriental o alta.

[Rudel]

Interesting, I never knew such a thing existed.

It's only logical that it would, though. I remember seeing my dad, staunchly monolingual in French, trying to communicate which Dominicans by hispanizing his French (or putting in it what he thought was Spanish or Spanish-ish). It was fucking hilarious, but that's how imagine it happening (the birth of the lingua franca) in real life.

[Comte Arnau]

It's only logical that it would, though. I remember seeing my dad, staunchly monolingual in French, trying to communicate which Dominicans by hispanizing his French (or putting in it what he thought was Spanish or Spanish-ish). It was fucking hilarious, but that's how imagine it happening (the birth of the lingua franca) in real life.

Per què li parles en anglès i no en francès? Complexe!! :laugh:

[Rudel]

Per què li parles en anglès i no en francès? Complexe!! :laugh:

La force de l'habitude :picard1:

[Leo Iscariot]

It's only logical that it would, though. I remember seeing my dad, staunchly monolingual in French, trying to communicate which Dominicans by hispanizing his French (or putting in it what he thought was Spanish or Spanish-ish). It was fucking hilarious, but that's how imagine it happening (the birth of the lingua franca) in real life.

I wonder if it would be feasible for it to be brought back, or for a new one to be invented?

[Ars Moriendi]

Let's all use English as our lingua franca and that's it.

Fuck English.

[Rudel]

I wonder if it would be feasible for it to be brought back, or for a new one to be invented?
Constructed languages fail and pidgins don't really happen much anymore, due to modern ways of communication spreading standards and keeping them as such.


Fuck English.
Et « Merde ! » pour le roi d'Angleterre, qui nous a déclaré la guerre...

[Leo Iscariot]

Constructed languages fail and pidgins don't really happen much anymore, due to modern ways of communication spreading standards and keeping them as such.


Et « Merde ! » pour le roi d'Angleterre, qui nous a déclaré la guerre...
To be fair, languages like Esperanto, and Interlingua have done fairly well for being conlangs. Even the Living Latin movement has a decent following. In fact, perhaps Interlingua would be a viable choice since most of it's vocabulary is derived from Romance languages.

Or hell, this one seems like a good choice as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_Franca_Nova


Btw, I realize I'm answering 5 months later. I just clicked here for the hell of it and saw that I never actually answered you back. :lol:

[curupira]

I don't think so. I come from a place where linguistic change took place only a few centuries ago and therefore I do not feel any attachment to a "linguistic identity". It does not make sense in Latin Euro countries either IMO. In truth, Latin is not even native to Italy, but it was brought there by IE speakers only God knows exactly when and how. Latin languages nowadays are Vulgar variations of that language. English is an IE language too. And it was also imposed on Britain by Anglo-Saxon conquerors. That's how the world works. I think having fewer languages in the modern world makes communication easier. And English is a language easier to master than Latin languages, which have too many accents, more complex verbal conjugations, etc.


I was messaging with a Portuguese user and I noticed that we both used English, although he probably would understand me if I wrote in Italian and vice versa. I stopped for a while from writing and though "WTF!"
Shouldn't we try to use a romance language AT LEAST when we write to each others? Is it a too stupid idea?

[B01AB20]

A reasonable possibility is that in a world more automatized every day the automatic translators will be really good and useful one near day, then there will be no need of a lingua franca, only the need for a good automatic translator.

[aimar]

A bit, but what are we going to do? I don't really understand written Italian, I wish I did, but I don't.
We should all be more like the french, they seem to resist this english invasion more than others.
If I were to message a Spaniard, I would write in Portuguese yes, but for other romance speakers I prefer to communicate in English.

[Merida]

I don't think it's 'humillianting'. Depending on which Romance languages you're using and the degree of mutual intelligibility between the two, sometimes you can have deeper and more complex conversations in English (if both speakers have a decent grasp of it).

[Rudel]

To be fair, languages like Esperanto, and Interlingua have done fairly well for being conlangs. Even the Living Latin movement has a decent following.
You know those are nerdy niches, therefore irrelevant.

[Han Cholo]

It's impossible for me to keep a conversation with an Italian or Romanian without using English. I'd add French as well, but I've learned how to transform most of their words properly (thus not a natural intelligibility.) I'm not able to write it though.

[Peyrol]

A sa me baie sö en lömbarth, lömbarth de Bèrghem?

L'è mia tàn dificel, a la pöde devenì la ''lenga franca'' por töda la latinitate e pör tòch e fiòl, pötele ed öms ch'al baian öna lenga romantza :lol:

[B01AB20]

I bet Visigoths and Franks spoke each other in latin in the V century because their native germanic languages were not intelligible, and because visigoths and franks spoke latin, of course.

[Leo Iscariot]

You know those are nerdy niches, therefore irrelevant.

That is true. I'm not trying to dilute myself to think that there weld be millions of speakers or anything though, just saying that there are examples/options out there.

[Peyrol]

I don't think so. I come from a place where linguistic change took place only a few centuries ago and therefore I do not feel any attachment to a "linguistic identity". It does not make sense in Latin Euro countries either IMO. In truth, Latin is not even native to Italy, but it was brought there by IE speakers only God knows exactly when and how. Latin languages nowadays are Vulgar variations of that language. English is an IE language too. And it was also imposed on Britain by Anglo-Saxon conquerors. That's how the world works. I think having fewer languages in the modern world makes communication easier. And English is a language easier to master than Latin languages, which have too many accents, more complex verbal conjugations, etc.

Not true at all; at least 35% of classical and vulgar latin vocabulary come from etruscan language, and they were native of the Italian peninsula.

[Longbowman]

It's ok, guys. You lost. It's over. Shhh. Shhh. Let the comforting wave of English rush over you like the gentle tide, cleansing you of your national pride.

But really, I converse via PM in Romance dialects and it doesn't bother me. Get over yourselves.

Anyhow, now for some master race media:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxtIRArhVD4

^This is permeating your homes. Your children will grow up formed by the lowest class of our cultural sphere.

[curupira]

Latin is still a classical IE language, and a rather conservative one at that. It is definitely not native to the Italian peninsula but it was rather imposed there, even if it does show up some Etruscan vocabulary.


Not true at all; at least 35% of classical and vulgar latin vocabulary come from etruscan language, and they were native of the Italian peninsula.

[Empecinado]

Para mí el inglés es como para mis antepasados el árabe, un idioma de bárbaros útil de conocer por motivos de comunicación y comercio, pero que de ninguna manera hay que adaptar en detrimento del idioma propio porque el inglés es una parte más de la globalización que amenaza nuestras culturas.

¿Qué sentido tendrá viajar a otros país si de aquí a unas décadas todo el mundo estará habitado por la misma gente y con el mismo pensamiento descerebrado en cualquier rincón del mundo? Sin diferencias idiomáticas, culturales, antropológicas, religiosas, etc., de ningún tipo que puedan distinguir un territorio de otro ni un pueblo de otro. Yo si viajo quiero ver un lugar distinto habitado por gente distinta con ideas distintas y con una filosofía distinta, de lo contrario el viaje no me aporta nada. El día que el mundo sea igualado (globalizado), viajar dejará de tener ningún sentido salvo para ver paisajes o arte, totalmente desprovisto de contenido propiamente humano.

[Rudel]

Get over yourselves.
Non.

[Longbowman]

Non.

u wot mate

stop speaking your foreign jibber jabber I don't speak pig latin

[Leo Iscariot]

The more I read on Interlingua, the more interesting I find it to be.


Patre nostre, qui es in le celos, que tu nomine sia sanctificate; que tu regno veni; que tu voluntate sia facite como in le celo, etiam super le terra. Da nos hodie nostre pan quotidian, e pardona a nos nostre debitas como etiam nos los pardona a nostre debitores. E non induce nos in tentation,sed libera nos del mal. Amen.

It definitely has potential if it ever gets taken seriously. It's already the among the most widely used and known auxiliary languages out there, and seems to be very organic in form. :strokebeard:

[B01AB20]

The more I read on Interlingua, the more interesting I find it to be.



It definitely has potential if it ever gets taken seriously. It's already the among the most widely used and known auxiliary languages out there, and seems to be very organic in form. :strokebeard:

is that 'interlingua'?

well, first time I read something in interlingua and I can understand everything easily, but I guess german and slavic speakers will not be very fond of it.

[Leo Iscariot]

is that 'interlingua'?

well, first time I read something in interlingua and I can understand everything easily, but I guess german and slavic speakers will not be very fond of it.

Yeah.

Perhaps, but I think it would work perfectly as a pan-Latin auxiliary language if it were ever given a serious effort.

[Comte Arnau]

The more I read on Interlingua, the more interesting I find it to be.

Patre nostre, qui es in le celos, que tu nomine sia sanctificate; que tu regno veni; que tu voluntate sia facite como in le celo, etiam super le terra. Da nos hodie nostre pan quotidian, e pardona a nos nostre debitas como etiam nos los pardona a nostre debitores. E non induce nos in tentation,sed libera nos del mal. Amen.

It definitely has potential if it ever gets taken seriously. It's already the among the most widely used and known auxiliary languages out there, and seems to be very organic in form. :strokebeard:

Nice, but it looks a bit 'lame' for a Romance speaker in some parts. "Le celos"? Why only one article, as in English? I guess that it's because its aim is international, but if it tried to be a Pan-Romance, it should agree in gender and number. I'd rather fix it into something like this:

Patre nostro, qui es in los cèlos, que tuo nomine sia sanctificato; que tuo regno venia; que tua voluntate sia facta como in lo cèlo eccosì supra la tèrra. Da-nos hodie nostro pan quotidian, e perdona a nos nostras debitas como nos las perdonamus a nostros debitores. E non induce-nos in temptacion, sed libera-nos de lo mal. Amen.

[Leo Iscariot]

Nice, but it looks a bit 'lame' for a Romance speaker in some parts. "Le celos"? Why only one article, as in English? I guess that it's because its aim is international, but if it tried to be a Pan-Romance, it should agree in gender and number. I'd rather fix it into something like this:

Patre nostro, qui es in los cèlos, que tuo nomine sia sanctificato; que tuo regno venia; que tua voluntate sia facta como in lo cèlo eccosì supra la tèrra. Da-nos hodie nostro pan quotidian, e perdona a nos nostras debitas como nos las perdonamus a nostros debitores. E non induce-nos in temptacion, sed libera-nos de lo mal. Amen.

TBF it's wasn't created to be a pan-Romantic language, just an international auxiliary language. Lingua Franca Nova (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_Franca_Nova) on the otherhand might be truer to that since it's based entirely on Romance languages, though it's not as well known.

I still think that it would be a viable alternative regardless, though.

[Comte Arnau]

TBF it's wasn't created to be a pan-Romantic language, just an international auxiliary language. Lingua Franca Nova (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_Franca_Nova) on the otherhand might be truer to that since it's based entirely on Romance languages, though it's not as well known.

I still think that it would be a viable alternative regardless, though.

Hmm, I don't think so. Yes, the vocabulary is based on the 6 main Romance languages, but the purpose is also to be an IAL and it says that the grammar is reduced to that of creoles. One glance at the sample texts and I'd say it's even more divergent than Interlingua.

For instance:
Alisia comensa deveni multe noiada, sentante a lado de se sore sur la colineta, con no cosa per ocupa se: a un o du veses, el ia regardeta en la libro cual se sore leje, ma lo conteni no pitures o conversas, “e cual es la valua de un libro,” Alisia pensa, “sin pitures o conversas?

The chopping of the -R infinitives in devenir(e) or ocupa(re) looks very creole. Apparently gender and number don't agree either. The choice of vocabulary (noiada, pitures, valua) looks a bit random too. I can understand all of it, but I'm not that sure if West Iberians would understand noiada, for instance.

[Leo Iscariot]

Hmm, I don't think so. Yes, the vocabulary is based on the 6 main Romance languages, but the purpose is also to be an IAL and it says that the grammar is reduced to that of creoles. One glance at the sample texts and I'd say it's even more divergent than Interlingua.

For instance:
Alisia comensa deveni multe noiada, sentante a lado de se sore sur la colineta, con no cosa per ocupa se: a un o du veses, el ia regardeta en la libro cual se sore leje, ma lo conteni no pitures o conversas, “e cual es la valua de un libro,” Alisia pensa, “sin pitures o conversas?

The chopping of the -R infinitives in devenir(e) or ocupa(re) looks very creole. Apparently gender and number don't agree either. The choice of vocabulary (noiada, pitures, valua) looks a bit random too. I can understand all of it, but I'm not that sure if West Iberians would understand noiada, for instance.

Hmm, I see. I guess this is one of those "you take what you can get" situations. Since there's really no alternative, I honestly think Interlingua would serve well for a pan-Romantic purpose.

[Scipio Africanus]

Latin is still a classical IE language, and a rather conservative one at that. It is definitely not native to the Italian peninsula but it was rather imposed there, even if it does show up some Etruscan vocabulary.

Latin is an Italic language and was born in Italy.

[curupira]

An Italic Indo European language. Just as Spanish is "Iberian" when as a matter of fact it just a Latin derived dialect. Latin as the other Italic Indo European languages comes from elsewhere, it was brought by IE speakers.


Latin is an Italic language and was born in Italy.

[Graus]

More humiliating than speaking romance languages in the first place?

[Peyrol]

An Italic Indo European language. Just as Spanish is "Iberian" when as a matter of fact it just a Latin derived dialect. Latin as the other Italic Indo European languages comes from elsewhere, it was brought by IE speakers.

Following this theories, then all the world languages except african ones aren't ''indigenous'' because of the mankind migrations out of the continent, lol.

[Peyrol]

More humiliating than speaking romance languages in the first place?

Since english vocabulary is at least 50-55% romance, we are in the middle i presume...

[curupira]

Not really. IE languages expanded quite fast and not too long ago. The Basque language, f.e, is more indigenous of Western Europe, since no relationship has been proven with any other living language and it was already there before IE languages arrived. The Japonic languages (to which Japanese belongs to) have found no immediate relative in mainland Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japonic_languages). Etc.


Following this theories, then all the world languages except african ones aren't ''indigenous'' because of the mankind migrations out of the continent, lol.

[Graus]

Since english vocabulary is at least 50-55% romance, we are in the middle i presume...

Last time I checked, it was still a west Germanic language tho a heavily bastardised one of course

[Zmey Gorynych]

I speak french, I understand almost everything italian, a get most of spanish, portuguese is a bitch.


Para mí el inglés es como para mis antepasados el árabe, un idioma de bárbaros útil de conocer por motivos de comunicación y comercio, pero que de ninguna manera hay que adaptar en detrimento del idioma propio porque el inglés es una parte más de la globalización que amenaza nuestras culturas.

For me english is like arab for my ancestors, a barbarian language useful for communication and commerce, but in no case a language to be used at the expense of your own language because english is another part of globalization which threatens our culture.

I didn't use a translator. I'm actually suprised how well I can undertand written spanish, the spoken language must be hard.

[Peyrol]

Last time I checked, it was still a west Germanic language tho a heavily bastardised one of course

Thanks the french for this.

(derivation of the english language)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Origins_of_English_PieChart_2D.svg


Anyway, for a romance speaker, it's the easiest of the germanic language

[Peyrol]

I speak french, I understand almost everything italian, a get most of spanish, portuguese is a bitch.



For me english is like arab for my ancestors, a barbarian language useful for communication and commerce, but in no case a language to be used at the expense of your own language because english is another part of globalization which threatens our culture.

I didn't use a translator. I'm actually suprised how well I can undertand written spanish, the spoken language must be hard.

You're moldovan, right?

So as romanian speaker you wouldn't have many difficulties for other romance languages...at least, for the written versions.

Here romanian and moldovan immigrants learn italian very, very fastly. And they ended to speak a more polite and correct language than many native italian speakers.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Comunicarea in limba engleza e o necesitate. Trebuie sa recunoastem utilitatea englezei iar umilinta e un termen mult prea dur, unii ar spune - melodramatic.

I didn't use diacritics. Anyone gets what I wrote ?

[Empecinado]

I speak french, I understand almost everything italian, a get most of spanish, portuguese is a bitch.



For me english is like arab for my ancestors, a barbarian language useful for communication and commerce, but in no case a language to be used at the expense of your own language because english is another part of globalization which threatens our culture.

I didn't use a translator. I'm actually suprised how well I can undertand written spanish, the spoken language must be hard.

Lol, yes you translated well!

The spoken language is hard to get because we talk like strafing the words, but unlike English the pronunciation rules are easy and the written matches with the spoken so only need to get used to the spoken way. Foreigners, no matter where they came from, learn it fastly and does not take them so much time to master it.

[Mens-Sarda]

The more I read on Interlingua, the more interesting I find it to be.

Patre nostre, qui es in le celos, que tu nomine sia sanctificate; que tu regno veni; que tu voluntate sia facite como in le celo, etiam super le terra. Da nos hodie nostre pan quotidian, e pardona a nos nostre debitas como etiam nos los pardona a nostre debitores. E non induce nos in tentation,sed libera nos del mal. Amen.

It definitely has potential if it ever gets taken seriously. It's already the among the most widely used and known auxiliary languages out there, and seems to be very organic in form. :strokebeard:




Nice, but it looks a bit 'lame' for a Romance speaker in some parts. "Le celos"? Why only one article, as in English? I guess that it's because its aim is international, but if it tried to be a Pan-Romance, it should agree in gender and number. I'd rather fix it into something like this:

Patre nostro, qui es in los cèlos, que tuo nomine sia sanctificato; que tuo regno venia; que tua voluntate sia facta como in lo cèlo eccosì supra la tèrra. Da-nos hodie nostro pan quotidian, e perdona a nos nostras debitas como nos las perdonamus a nostros debitores. E non induce-nos in temptacion, sed libera-nos de lo mal. Amen.



It's interesting, quite easy to understand, a simplified Latin, but looks written by English speakers, as you said, only one article also for plural?

same text in northern Sardinian (Logudoresu), quite close to Latin (thanks to the isolation of Sardinia)

Babbu nostru, qui ses in sos chelos, qui sìet santificadu su nomene tou; qui bènzat su rennu tou; qui sìet fatta sa voluntade tua, comente in su chelu e gai supra 'e sa terra. Da-nos hoe su pane nostru de ogni die, e perdona-nos sos dèpidos nostros, comente nois los perdonamus a sos depidòres nostros. e no nos fettas a ruere in tentazione, ma libera-nos dae su male. Amen

p.s.

interesting things:

- northern Sardinian language retains classical Latin pronounces like the C -> K : coelus -> kelus -> chelu/kelu, plural - chelos (pronounce "kelos")

- another interesting thing, in negative-imperative phrases we use the subjunctive present like in Spanish, and not like in Italian which uses the infinitive, the phrase "non induce-nos" we translate with : no nos fettas a ruere (don't make us fall) subjunctive present, 2nd singular person (fettas) + ruere (infinitive), using infinitives we often use the "a" + verb like in Latin : "a ruere" -> "ad ruere" (to fall)

other examples of the differences between Italian and Sardinian negative-imperatives

non correre (don't run) -> no curras (subjunctive present, 2nd singular person)
non andarci (don't go there) -> no bi andes
non temere (don't fear) -> no timas

while the imperatives are more or less identical to Latin

(Latin) curre - (Sardinian) curre - (Italian) corri - (English) run
(Latin) currite - (Sardinian) curride - (Italian) correte - (English) run (plural)
(Latin) vade - (Sardinian) bae - (Italian) vai - (English) go
(Latin) vadite - (Sardinian) bazi - (Italian) andate - (English) go (plural)
(Latin) face - (Sardinian) faghe - (Italian) fai - (English) do it
(Latin) facite - (Sardinian) faghide - (Italian) fate - (English) do it (plural)

:wavey001:

[Empecinado]

Comunicarea in limba engleza e o necesitate. Trebuie sa recunoastem utilitatea englezei iar umilinta e un termen mult prea dur, unii ar spune - melodramatic.

I didn't use diacritics. Anyone gets what I wrote ?

Only the first phrase.

[Geminus]

Thanks the french for this.

(derivation of the english language)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Origins_of_English_PieChart_2D.svg


Anyway, for a romance speaker, it's the easiest of the germanic language

I wonder about the origin of this pie chart. Less than a third Germanic words in English? Anyway I would like to see something for German, unfortunately I didn't find anything.

As I had Latin in school and German as my mother-tongue I also find English very easy to use. Learning Latin also has the nice side effect that I can get the gist of texts of many of the Romance languages.
(Or at least of the posts in this thread)

[Mens-Sarda]

Comunicarea in limba engleza e o necesitate. Trebuie sa recunoastem utilitatea englezei iar umilinta e un termen mult prea dur, unii ar spune - melodramatic.

I didn't use diacritics. Anyone gets what I wrote ?

I can understand the first phrase, and some words in the remaining text

same phrase in Sardinian :

Comunicare in limba inglesa est una netzessidade. ...................

termen mult prea dur = termine meda piùs tostu - In Italian "termine molto più duro"

[Volscian]

Comunicarea in limba engleza e o necesitate. Trebuie sa recunoastem utilitatea englezei iar umilinta e un termen mult prea dur, unii ar spune - melodramatic.

I didn't use diacritics. Anyone gets what I wrote ?

I don't understand only Trebuie sa recunoastem

[SKYNET]

* You have to recognize

[Han Cholo]

Comunicarea in limba engleza e o necesitate. Trebuie sa recunoastem utilitatea englezei iar umilinta e un termen mult prea dur, unii ar spune - melodramatic.

I didn't use diacritics. Anyone gets what I wrote ?

Comunicarse en la lengua inglesa es una nececidad. También se reconoce la utilidad inglesa para iluminar terminos que sean muy duros, unos que suenen melodramáticos?


Es un gran problema entender el contexto en Rumano. Ni siquiera intentando. Qué demonios es "umilinta"?

[Longbowman]

Comunicarse en la lengua inglesa es una nececidad. También se reconoce la utilidad inglesa para iluminar terminos que sean muy duros, unos que suenen melodramáticos?


Es un gran problema entender el contexto en Rumano. Ni siquiera intentando. Qué demonios es "umilinta"?

Verguenza o humillacion tal vez?

[LightHouse89]

I dont think so. After all it is America and white americans who now rule the earth :cool:

[Leo Iscariot]

Comunicarea in limba engleza e o necesitate.
"Communication in the English language is a necessity."


Trebuie sa recunoastem utilitatea englezei iar umilinta
The only words I recognize here are "recognize" and "English".


e un termen mult prea dur, unii ar spune - melodramatic.[/I]
The only words I recognize here are "hard" and "melodramatic".

[Lusos]

Worry not.
The goal Is for us to speak Esperanto soon.

(Haven't you read the news ?)

[B01AB20]

Worry not.
The goal Is for us to speak Esperanto soon.

(Haven't you read the news ?)

(no, I haven't.)

[Comte Arnau]

Trebuie sa recunoastem utilitatea englezei iar umilinta e un termen mult prea dur, unii ar spune - melodramatic.

I didn't use diacritics. Anyone gets what I wrote ?

The reason why we don't get that second sentence so much is because of the two Slavic terms (in red) and that weird "iar". Besides, it's not that easy to see that EXPONERE has become 'spune' with the meaning of 'to say'.

[Peyrol]

I wonder about the origin of this pie chart. Less than a third Germanic words in English? Anyway I would like to see something for German, unfortunately I didn't find anything.

As I had Latin in school and German as my mother-tongue I also find English very easy to use. Learning Latin also has the nice side effect that I can get the gist of texts of many of the Romance languages.
(Or at least of the posts in this thread)

As a german native speaker and with a knowlege of latin, you would virtually understand almost all the bases of the languages of central, southern and western europe.

[Mens-Sarda]

The reason why we don't get that second sentence so much is because of the two Slavic terms (in red) and that weird "iar". Besides, it's not that easy to see that EXPONERE has become 'spune' with the meaning of 'to say'.

prea could be from Latin "plus", in southern Sardinian they use to say "prus", the L hast turned to R; while in northern Sardinian we use to say "piùs"

un termen mult prea dur = un termine molto più duro (in Italian)

[LightHouse89]

the only language that will be spoken in 300 years will be american english.

[Musso]

Spanish should be the common language spoken...

[Comte Arnau]

prea could be from Latin "plus", in southern Sardinian they use to say "prus", the L hast turned to R; while in northern Sardinian we use to say "piùs"

un termen mult prea dur = un termine molto più duro (in Italian)

It'd be a weird evolution in Romanian. They keep initial PL- (plin, plange...) so it would probably give 'plus' all the same.

If anything, I'd make it derive from Latin PRAE.

[Ars Moriendi]

Spanish should be the common language spoken...

I agree there. Spanish is the second/third language of the world.

I'm sure Lusophones, Italophones and maybe even Romanians could play ball with that.
Problem is the French might not be willing to do the same.

[Musso]

I agree there. Spanish is the second/third language of the world.

I'm sure Lusophones, Italophones and maybe even Romanians could play ball with that.
Problem is the French might not be willing to do the same.

Actually they speak more Spanish than English in the world. But again the thing is...a Chinese person or Arab person will learn English and for that reason a German person will learn English. It is very hard to change the international language of the world. But Spanish is pretty much a common language for the Americas

[Mens-Sarda]

the only language that will be spoken in 300 years will be american english.

sure :laugh:

let's see the evolution of future Americans

http://hapkh.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/bush_monkey3.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NuXgrx7s1qo/UWleF49a_JI/AAAAAAAAIxI/3nncvG_BakI/s1600/el_planeta_de_los_simios_1968_4.jpg

[LightHouse89]

sure :laugh:

let's see the evolution of future Americans

http://hapkh.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/bush_monkey3.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NuXgrx7s1qo/UWleF49a_JI/AAAAAAAAIxI/3nncvG_BakI/s1600/el_planeta_de_los_simios_1968_4.jpg

so. we will still rule over you.

[Mens-Sarda]

It'd be a weird evolution in Romanian. They keep initial PL- (plin, plange...) so it would probably give 'plus' all the same.

If anything, I'd make it derive from Latin PRAE.


found the solution

http://it.bab.la/dizionario/romeno-italiano/prea

I would have never guessed

[Leo Iscariot]

the only language that will be spoken in 300 years will be american english.

As long as it's a Southern accent. I hate all other accents here, and I say this as a Wisconsinite with a noticeable Midwestern twang.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Comunicarse en la lengua inglesa es una nececidad. También se reconoce la utilidad inglesa para iluminar terminos que sean muy duros, unos que suenen melodramáticos?


Es un gran problema entender el contexto en Rumano. Ni siquiera intentando. Qué demonios es "umilinta"?

You got the first sentence but not the second. The second is: We must acknowledge the utility of the english language and the term (word) humiliation is too harsh, some might say - melodramatic. "Umilinta" means humiliation.

Da, romana e ceva mai greu de inteles pentru vorbitorii de limbi latine vestice - cuvinte de origina slava, substratumul dacic, sintaxa, articularea, etc. N-am prea inteles a doua propozitie dar cred ca e: "Nu sunt sigur ca am inteles". La cea de a treia propozitie ti-am raspuns in prima parte a postarii.

How about this one. Again no diacritics, this one should be even more difficult.


The reason why we don't get that second sentence so much is because of the two Slavic terms (in red) and that weird "iar". Besides, it's not that easy to see that EXPONERE has become 'spune' with the meaning of 'to say'.
"Iar" in this context means but, it can have other meanings like again and also. You're right the two words in red are slavic, "trebuie" means "we must" and "prea" in conjunction with "mult" means "too".

[Han Cholo]

You got the first sentence but not the second. The second is: We must acknowledge the utility of the english language and the term (word) humiliation is too harsh, some might say - melodramatic. "Umilinta" means humiliation.

Da, romana e ceva mai greu de inteles pentru vorbitorii de limbi latine vestice - cuvinte de origina slava, substratumul dacic, sintaxa, articularea, etc. N-am prea inteles a doua propozitie dar cred ca e: "Nu sunt sigur ca am inteles". La cea de a treia propozitie ti-am raspuns in prima parte a postarii.

How about this one. Again no diacritics, this one should be even more difficult.


"Iar" in this context means but, it can have other meanings like again and also. You're right the two words in red are slavic, "trebuie" means "we must" and "prea" in conjuction with "mult" means "too much".

Only isolated word (just like the first one.) I can get like 60% of the words but is hard to truly order them to make sense in my own tongue.

"Yes, romanian is the one that goes further away from the repertory of Latin tongues - contains slavic origins, dacian substratum, sintaxis, articulations, etc... " And I can't make any sense of the rest.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Only isolated word (just like the first one.) I can get like 60% of the words but is hard to truly order them to make sense in my own tongue.
It seems that italian and spanish are the only two mutually intelligibile romance languages, and the easiest for all the others to understand.

[Han Cholo]

It seems that italian and spanish are the only two mutually intelligibile romance languages, and the easiest for all the others to understand.

I can't understand Italian. I only can understand Portuguese (but I actually know how to speak this one) and French. I'd add other Iberian languages and Catalan/Occitan as well.

[Zmey Gorynych]

I can't understand Italian. I only can understand Portuguese (but I actually know how to speak this one) and French. I'd add other Iberian languages and Catalan/Occitan as well.
Really ? I would've thought italian is the easiest for everyone. You understand french without ever learning it !?

[Han Cholo]

Really ? I would've thought italian is the easiest for everyone. You understand french without ever learning it !?

I can somehow understand Italian when it's spoken clearly and without slangs. Written looks like an agglutination of bizarre double consonants and ch's and i's.

On the other hand, I can decently understand French when it's written, but as you know the phonetics are horse shit. As opposed to Romanian (where I can understand lots of words, but almost 0 context) in French I can understand 100% the context and sentences, and deduce the words I don't know from the context itself.

[Han Cholo]

I must also add that I can understand some romanian songs with very general words, like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4mdYPaFD1c

I understand 80% of it. I think I would even be able to write it down (with lots of mistakes, but still).


"Structura programata pentru regenerare, fibre musculare cand a mente maximale, blablabla mare de cupare"

[Peyrol]

I can't understand Italian. I only can understand Portuguese (but I actually know how to speak this one) and French. I'd add other Iberian languages and Catalan/Occitan as well.

It depends what kind of occitan...

this is occitan that is ( or that was once) spoken in central France


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGg3ut9fhIc


This is, on the other hand, occitan spoken in my region


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA50NfttvEY


i guess that for you the second song sound less harsher than the first

[Peyrol]

...and if some romance speaker would give a try to aragonese language...

...here it is...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoOkNMK5-Kc

[Han Cholo]

...and if some romance speaker would give a try to aragonese language...

...here it is...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoOkNMK5-Kc

This has a noticeable Castillian accent, which extenuates the similarity. I'd say 70% words are exactly the same.

[Mens-Sarda]

I think that for Spaniards it's easier to understand Sardinian language than to understand Italian, plurals in "os, es, as, is" like in Latin and Spanish, verbal conjugations very similar to Latin, etc.etc.

Creo qui pro sos Hispagnolos est piùs fàtzile a cumprendere sa limba Sarda qui no a cumprendere s'Italianu, plurales in "os, es, as, is" comente in Latinu e in Hispagnolu, coniugatziones verbales meda similes a su Latinu, etc.etc.





p.s.
Only northern Sardinian (Logudoresu), because the southern language (Campidanesu) even for us is really hard to understand, it has a different vocabulary, different way to conjugate verbs, a lot of nasal pronounces (like French), several ways to pronounce vowels (like Portuguese), very very accented double consonants, all these things are completely missing in Logudoresu, it's a quite easy language, no nasal pronounces, only one way to pronounce vowels, and there aren't very accented double consonants

Solu su Sardu settentrionale (Logudoresu), ca sa limba meridionale (Campidanesu) pro a nois puru est meda diffitzile a la cumprendere, hat unu diversu vocabolariu, diversas maneras de coniugare sos verbos, unu muntone de pronuntzias nasales (comente in Frantzesu), paritzas maneras de pronuntziare sas vocales (comente in Portughesu), doppias cunsonantes meda meda accentadas; totu custas cosas mancan cumpletamente in Logudoresu, est una limba abbastantzia fatzile, nemancu una pronuntzia nasale, una manera e bia de pronuntziare sas vocales, e no bi sun doppias cunsonantes meda accentadas

[Arianiti]

I was messaging with a Portuguese user and I noticed that we both used English, although he probably would understand me if I wrote in Italian and vice versa. I stopped for a while from writing and though "WTF!"
Shouldn't we try to use a romance language AT LEAST when we write to each others? Is it a too stupid idea?

Myself I find it very inappropriate and humiliating to speak with another Albanian in any other language beside Albanian when it is not necessary to use other languages.

I can not even address him/her in another language.

[Han Cholo]

Myself I find it very inappropriate and humiliating to speak with another Albanian in any other language beside Albanian when it is not necessary to use other languages.

I can not even address him/her in another language.

That's not the question. If for example, Macedonia spoke a different language in the same sub-branch of Albanian (as French is to Spanish) could you communicate in the single language? As an isolate you don't have to worry too much about this.

[Han Cholo]

I think that for Spaniards it's easier to understand Sardinian language than to understand Italian, plurals in "os, es, as, is" like in Latin and Spanish, verbal conjugations very similar to Latin, etc.etc.

Creo qui pro sos Hispagnolos est piùs fàtzile a cumprendere sa limba Sarda qui no a cumprendere s'Italianu, plurales in "os, es, as, is" comente in Latinu e in Hispagnolu, coniugatziones verbales meda similes a su Latinu, etc.etc.





p.s.
Only northern Sardinian (Logudoresu), because the southern language (Campidanesu) even for us is really hard to understand, it has a different vocabulary, different way to conjugate verbs, a lot of nasal pronounces (like French), several ways to pronounce vowels (like Portuguese), very very accented double consonants, all these things are completely missing in Logudoresu, it's a quite easy language, no nasal pronounces, only one way to pronounce vowels, and there aren't very accented double consonants

Solu su Sardu settentrionale (Logudoresu), ca sa limba meridionale (Campidanesu) pro a nois puru est meda diffitzile a la cumprendere, hat unu diversu vocabolariu, diversas maneras de coniugare sos verbos, unu muntone de pronuntzias nasales (comente in Frantzesu), paritzas maneras de pronuntziare sas vocales (comente in Portughesu), doppias cunsonantes meda meda accentadas; totu custas cosas mancan cumpletamente in Logudoresu, est una limba abbastantzia fatzile, nemancu una pronuntzia nasale, una manera e bia de pronuntziare sas vocales, e no bi sun doppias cunsonantes meda accentadas

I can understand almost everything although I can get a bit lost. I had thought Sardinian was an independent branch of Romance?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png/800px-Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png

From what I can see in this map, it surprises me it's that similar, considering it's not even in the general branch "Continental Romance" of which all others stem.

[Peyrol]

I can understand almost everything although I can get a bit lost. I had thought Sardinian was an independent branch of Romance?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png/800px-Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png

From what I can see in this map, it surprises me it's that similar, considering it's not even in the general branch "Continental Romance" of which all others stem.

That map is wrong...''italian dialects''...wtf? And only occitan and french under gallo-romance languages....where is catalan? Lombard? Venetic? Ligurian? Piemontese?


Catalan isn't ''ibero-romance'', it hasn't absolutely nothing of ''iberian''

here the true catalan pronunciation sung by a native speaker:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ObgdAPe2SQ







that's a more correct map

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Romance-lg-classification-en.png

[Arianiti]

That's not the question. If for example, Macedonia spoke a different language in the same sub-branch of Albanian (as French is to Spanish) could you communicate in the single language? As an isolate you don't have to worry too much about this.

We have different dialects too but we speak Albanian, but I understand your point, and I can not say much about differences of Romance languages. We have a very good dedication to this issue by one of our most famous Albanian authors and historical figures, Father Gjergj Fishta. In Albanian it is a very good poem but my translation in English is quite poor. but still I will post it here.

May the curse fall on the Albanian Son
Who, this Language of God
A legacy left by our Ancestors,
Does not pass it on as a legacy to his offspring.

May the mouths be shut forever
Of those who despise this Language of God
and when not necessary speak in foreign languages
and neglect their own.

[Han Cholo]

We have different dialects too but we speak Albanian, but I understand your point, and I can not say much about differences of Romance languages. We have a very good dedication to this issue by one of our most famous Albanian authors and historical figures, Father Gjergj Fishta. In Albanian it is a very good poem but my translation in English is quite poor. but still I will post it here.

May the curse fall on the Albanian Son
Who, this Language of God
A legacy left by our Ancestors,
Does not pass it on as a legacy to his offspring.

May the mouths be shut forever
Of those who despise this Language of God
and when not necessary speak in foreign languages
and neglect their own.


I think Albanian is relatively close to Romance though. Of course I can't understand Albanians but I recognize a few similar words. Cielo = Qielli for Sky, etc... Flama = Flamur for Flame/Fire, etc.

[Arianiti]

I think Albanian is relatively close to Romance though. Of course I can't understand Albanians but I recognize a few similar words. Cielo = Qielli for Sky, etc... Flama = Flamur for Flame/Fire, etc.

Yes there are some common words but we can not understand Romance languages without studying them first.

[Ulla]

Latin is still a classical IE language, and a rather conservative one at that. It is definitely not native to the Italian peninsula but it was rather imposed there, even if it does show up some Etruscan vocabulary.

When the proto-Latins settled in Italy, Latin ethnos and Latin language weren't still formed. In Old Latin texts (Archaic or Early Latin) is more similar to other old Italics languages. At the beginning Latins even didn't use their own Latin alphabet yet.

[Ulla]

Comunicarea in limba engleza e o necesitate. Trebuie sa recunoastem utilitatea englezei iar umilinta e un termen mult prea dur, unii ar spune - melodramatic.

I didn't use diacritics. Anyone gets what I wrote ?

In Sardinian the term "language" is limba, if I remember well.

Yes, I understand almost you wrote.

[Mens-Sarda]

I can understand almost everything although I can get a bit lost. I had thought Sardinian was an independent branch of Romance?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png/800px-Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png

From what I can see in this map, it surprises me it's that similar, considering it's not even in the general branch "Continental Romance" of which all others stem.


yes it's an independent branch, Insular Romance; the northern language shares similarities with Spanish and Italian, while the southern language instead shares similarities with Catalan and also with Sicilian (infinitive verbs in "ari, eri, iri"), but they are clearly separate from Italian, Spanish and Catalan. During the 300 years of Spanish government the language acquired various words and verbs of Castillan and Catalan origin, but the northern language remained quite similar to the language spoken before the conquest, while the southern language evolved rapidly in a different direction and nowadays the two dialects (Logudoresu and Campidanesu) are almost two different languages, with a certain similarity, like Spanish and Portuguese for example, but with also great differences.


let's see how much can you understand without translation :icon_cheesygrin:

Sa limba faeddada e iscritta in Sardigna primu de sa conquista Aragonesa fit abbastantzia simile in tota s'isula comente podimus bidere dae sos documentos antigos, cunfrontendela cun sa limba faeddada in die de hoe, bidimus qui su Logudoresu est cussu qui s'est distaccadu piùs pagu dae sa limba originale, mentre qui su Campidanesu hat sighidu ater'una direzione evolutiva. Totu custas differentzias poden essere istadas causadas dae diversos substratos linguisticos a nord e a sud de sa Sardigna, e puru dae su fattu qui sa limba Latina in Sardigna est arrivada in diversas undadas e dae diversas direziones. Su Latinu in sa zona meridionale de sa Sardigna est arrivadu dae su portu de Caralis, portu qui fit in cuntattu cun sas provincias meridionales de s'imperu (Sicilia, Nord Africa), mentre in sa zona settentrionale su Latinu est bènnidu dae sos portos de Olbia e de Turris, qui fin cullegados cun s'Italia centrale su primu, e cun sa Gallia Narbonensis e s'Hispania su segundu, pro custa rejone su Latinu intradu in Sardigna dae custos portos fit unu Latinu differente dae cussu intradu dae su portu de Caralis, e s'est evòlvidu in maneras differentes.
Cun sa fine de s'imperu sa Sardigna est restada isulada pro medas seculos, e sa limba Latina s'est evòlvida in manera unica e differente dae totu sos àteros logos, e s'est mantesa abbastantzia uniforme pro totu su medioevo, mentre da poi de sa conquista Aragonesa s'isula est istada divisa in duas provincias : Cabu de Supra e Cabu de Sutta, su primu guvernadu dae feudatarios de limba Castigliana, su segundu guvernadu dae feudatarios de limba Catalana, in custu periodu sos cuntattos intre sas duas provincias fin istados quasi annullados, ca sos Castiglianos odiaìan sos Catalanos e vice versa, e puru ca sos guvernadores timìan qui podìat iscoppiare una rebellione, pro custu no bidìan bene qui sos sudditos issòro andèren in giru; totu custas rejones han causadu s'isulamentu de sas duas provincias, qui in tres seculos han vìvidu a costazu a pare quasi chene si faeddare, e sa limba qui finzas a su 1420 fit abbastantzia uniforme s'est divisa in duas partes. Custu fattu de essere divisa in duos est diventadu puru un ostaculu pro s'insignamentu de sa limba in sas iscolas, ca no si resèssit a nos ponere de accordu, su problema est sempre su matessi, cale Sardu insignare in sas iscolas? Tando sos istudiosos pagados dae su guvernu regionale han inventadu una limba artificiale, unende Logudoresu e Campidanesu, limba però qui est odiada dae ambas partes, e bènit impittada solu pro documentos burocraticos in sos officios de sa Regione e in pagos àteros comunes. Sas duas partes invece dìan a quèrrere qui totas duas limbas sien insignadas in sas iscolas, ind'ogni zona sa limba sua, in manera de accuntentare a totu, però su guvernu regionale no intèndet rejones e sìghit ad andare pro contu sou.


p.s.
the translation later, if you have difficulties :biggrin:

[Zmey Gorynych]

let's see how much can you understand without translation :icon_cheesygrin:

Sa limba faeddada e iscritta in Sardigna primu de sa conquista Aragonese fit abbastantzia simile in tota s'isula comente podimus bidere dae sos documentos antigos, cunfrontendela cun sa limba faeddada in die de hoe, bidimus qui su Logudoresu est cussu qui s'est distaccadu piùs pagu dae sa limba originale, mentre qui su Campidanesu hat sighidu ater'una direzione evolutiva. Totu custas differentzias poden essere istadas causadas dae diversos substratos linguisticos a nord e a sud de sa Sardigna, e puru dae su fattu qui sa limba Latina in Sardigna est arrivada in diversas undadas e dae diversas direziones. Su Latinu in sa zona meridionale de sa Sardigna est arrivadu dae su portu de Caralis, portu qui fit in cuntattu cun sas provincias meridionales de s'imperu (Sicilia, Nord Africa), mentre in sa zona settentrionale su Latinu est bènnidu dae sos portos de Olbia e de Turris, qui fin cullegados cun s'Italia centrale su primu, e cun sa Gallia Narbonensis e s'Hispania su segundu, pro custa rejone su Latinu intradu in Sardigna dae custos portos fit unu Latinu differente dae cussu intradu dae su portu de Caralis, e s'est evòlvidu in maneras differentes.
Cun sa fine de s'imperu sa Sardigna est restada isulada pro medas seculos, e sa limba Latina s'est evòlvida in manera unica e differente dae totu sos àteros logos, e s'est mantesa abbastantzia uniforme pro totu su medioevo, mentre da poi de sa conquista Aragonese s'isula est istada divisa in duas provincias : Cabu de Supra e Cabu de Sutta, su primu guvernadu dae feudatarios de limba Castigliana, su segundu guvernadu dae feudatarios de limba Catalana, in custu periodu sos cuntattos intre sas duas provincias fin istados quasi annullados, ca sos Castiglianos odiaìan sos Catalanos e vice versa, e puru ca sos guvernadores timìan qui podìat iscoppiare una rebellione, pro custu no bidìan bene qui sos sudditos issòro andèren in giru; totu custas rejones han causadu s'isulamentu de sas duas provincias, qui in tres seculos han vìvidu a costazu a pare quasi chene si faeddare, e sa limba qui finzas a su 1420 fit abbastantzia uniforme s'est divisa in duas partes. Custu fattu de essere divisa in duos est diventadu puru un ostaculu pro s'insignamentu de sa limba in sas iscolas, ca no si resèssit a nos ponere de accordu, su problema est sempre su matessi, cale Sardu insignare in sas iscolas? Tando sos istudiosos pagados dae su guvernu regionale han inventadu una limba artificiale, unende Logudoresu e Campidanesu, limba però qui est odiada dae ambas partes, e bènit impittada solu pro documentos burocraticos in sos officios de sa Regione e in pagos àteros comunes. Sas duas partes invece dìan a quèrrere qui totas duas limbas sien insignadas in sas iscolas, ind'ogni zona sa limba sua, in manera de accuntentare a totu, però su guvernu regionale no intèndet rejones e sìghit ad andare pro contu sou.


p.s.
the translation later, if you have difficulties :biggrin:

Ok, that looks pretty difficult :D

First sentence is a mistery. Words like faeddada, bidimus, abbastantzia, hoe, cussu say nothing to me.

His (faeddada, I guess it's an adjective) language is inscribed in Sardinia before the Aragonian conquest with similar (abbastantzia, I guess noun) in the entire island as we can tell from its ancient documents, confronted with (faeddada) language in (die) of (hoe), we can see (bidimus meaning see?) that its Logudoresu has (cussu, adjective I presume) distanced itself the least from the original language, while its Campidanesu has taken an evolutionist direction.
All (custas ?) differences could've been caused by different linguistic substratums in north and south Sardinia, and it could be that its Latin language has arrived in different waves and from different directions. The latin in southern Sardinia has come through the port of Caralis, a port which was in contact with the southern provinces of the empire (Sicily, Northern Africa), (mentre ?) in its northern area Latin has come thorugh ports like Olbia and Turris, which (fin cullegados? maybe meaning "associated" ?) first of all with central Italy, and secondly Gallia Narbonensis and Hispania, for these reasons the latin which entered Sardinia through these ports was so different from that which entered through Caralis, and evolved in different ways.
As the edge of the empire Sardinia stayed isolated for many centuries and its latin has evolved in a unique way, different from all the other forms, and stayed (abbastantzia) uniform the entire Middle Ages, only after the aragonian conquest the island has been divided in two provinces: Upper and Lower Cape. The first was governed by (feudatarios ? speakers ?) of castillian language and the second by (feudatarios ?) of catalan language, during this period interactions between these two provinces have been almost non-existent because castillians hated catalans and vice versa, and because the gorvernors feared a rebellion, that's why they didn't see with good eyes these (issore anderen in giru ?), all these reasons have caused the isolation of these two provinces, which during three centuries lived in constant war, and its language which stayed the same until 1420 has been divided in two. This act of dividing has caused and obstacle in the teaching/learning of the language in schools, and they can't come to an agreement, and the problem is always the same, which sardinian is to be taught in schools. Some payed scholars have invented and artificial language, uniting Logudoresu and Campidanesu, a language which is hated by both sides and it's used only in official documents. Both sides say that they want both languages to be taught in schools in order to understand everything (both languages) but the regional government sees no reasons for it and insists on its own.

[Mens-Sarda]

Sa limba faeddada e iscritta in Sardigna primu de sa conquista Aragonesa fit abbastantzia simile in tota s'isula comente podimus bidere dae sos documentos antigos, cunfrontendela cun sa limba faeddada in die de hoe, bidimus qui su Logudoresu est cussu qui s'est distaccadu piùs pagu dae sa limba originale, mentre qui su Campidanesu hat sighidu ater'una direzione evolutiva. Totu custas differentzias poden essere istadas causadas dae diversos substratos linguisticos a nord e a sud de sa Sardigna, e puru dae su fattu qui sa limba Latina in Sardigna est arrivada in diversas undadas e dae diversas direziones. Su Latinu in sa zona meridionale de sa Sardigna est arrivadu dae su portu de Caralis, portu qui fit in cuntattu cun sas provincias meridionales de s'imperu (Sicilia, Nord Africa), mentre in sa zona settentrionale su Latinu est bènnidu dae sos portos de Olbia e de Turris, qui fin cullegados cun s'Italia centrale su primu, e cun sa Gallia Narbonensis e s'Hispania su segundu, pro custa rejone su Latinu intradu in Sardigna dae custos portos fit unu Latinu differente dae cussu intradu dae su portu de Caralis, e s'est evòlvidu in maneras differentes.
Cun sa fine de s'imperu sa Sardigna est restada isulada pro medas seculos, e sa limba Latina s'est evòlvida in manera unica e differente dae totu sos àteros logos, e s'est mantesa abbastantzia uniforme pro totu su medioevo, mentre da poi de sa conquista Aragonesa s'isula est istada divisa in duas provincias : Cabu de Supra e Cabu de Sutta, su primu guvernadu dae feudatarios de limba Castigliana, su segundu guvernadu dae feudatarios de limba Catalana, in custu periodu sos cuntattos intre sas duas provincias fin istados quasi annullados, ca sos Castiglianos odiaìan sos Catalanos e vice versa, e puru ca sos guvernadores timìan qui podìat iscoppiare una rebellione, pro custu no bidìan bene qui sos sudditos issòro andèren in giru; totu custas rejones han causadu s'isulamentu de sas duas provincias, qui in tres seculos han vìvidu a costazu a pare quasi chene si faeddare, e sa limba qui finzas a su 1420 fit abbastantzia uniforme s'est divisa in duas partes. Custu fattu de essere divisa in duos est diventadu puru un ostaculu pro s'insignamentu de sa limba in sas iscolas, ca no si resèssit a nos ponere de accordu, su problema est sempre su matessi, cale Sardu insignare in sas iscolas? Tando sos istudiosos pagados dae su guvernu regionale han inventadu una limba artificiale, unende Logudoresu e Campidanesu, limba però qui est odiada dae ambas partes, e bènit impittada solu pro documentos burocraticos in sos officios de sa Regione e in pagos àteros comunes. Sas duas partes invece dìan a quèrrere qui totas duas limbas sien insignadas in sas iscolas, ind'ogni zona sa limba sua, in manera de accuntentare a totu, però su guvernu regionale no intèndet rejones e sìghit ad andare pro contu sou.

here is a complete translation

The language spoken and written in Sardinia before the Aragonese conquest was enough similar in the whole island, as we can see from the ancient documents, comparing it with the language spoken nowadays, we see that Logudoresu is that which is less detached from the original language, while the Campidanesu followed another evolutive direction.
All these differences could be caused by different linguistic substratums in north and in south of Sardinia, and also from the fact that Latin language arrived in Sardinia in different waves and from different directions. Latin in the southern zone of Sardinia arrived from the port of Caralis, port that was in contact with the southern provinces of the empire (Sicily, north Africa), while in the northern zone Latin has come from the ports of Olbia and Turris, which were connected with central Italy the first, and with Gallia Narbonensis and Hispania the second, for this reason the Latin entered in Sardinia from these ports was a different Latin from that entered from the port of Caralis, and has evolved in different ways.
With the end of the empire, Sardinia remained isolated for several centuries, and Latin language has evolved in an unique and different manner compared with all other places, and remained enough uniform for the whole middle ages, while after the Aragonese conquest the island was divided in two provinces : Upper Cape and Lower Cape, the first governed by feudatories of Castillan language, the second governed by feudatories of Catalan language, in this period the contacts between the two provinces were almost null, because Castillans hated Catalans and vice versa, and also because the governors feared that a rebellion could explode, for this reason they didn't see well that their subjects would go around; all these reasons have caused the isolation of the two provinces, that in three centuries have lived side by side almost without speaking together, and the language that until 1420 was enough uniform has divided in two parts.
This fact of being divided in two has become also an obstacle for the language teaching at school, because we can't manage to find an agreement, the problem is always the same, what Sardinian is to be taught at school? Then the academics payed by regional government invented an artificial language, joining together Logudoresu and Campidanesu, a language that however is hated by both parts, and is only used in bureaucratic documents in the Regional offices or in few other municipalities. Both parts instead would want that both languages would be taught at school, in every zone its language, in order to satisfy everyone, but the regional government doesn't hear reasons, and continues to go on its way.

p.s.

about the words you didn't understand

faeddada = spoken, from the verb "faeddare" -> in vulgar Latin "favellare, fabellare", Spanish "hablar", Portuguese "fablar"
abbastantzia = enough
in die de hoe = nowadays - from Latin "dies" (day), hodie (today)
bidimus = we see -> Latin "videmus"
custu = this
custas, custos = these
mentre = while
fin cullegados = were connected
feudatarios = feudatories, land governors
qui sos sudditos issòro andèren in giru = that their subjects would go around - issòro from Latin ipsorum (their, theirs)




except some errors and difficulties of understanding you translated quite well

:wavey001:

[Zmey Gorynych]

except some errors and difficulties of understanding you translated quite well :wavey001:
I got the gist of it but I missed many details. Some sentences I messed up completely.

[LightHouse89]

As long as it's a Southern accent. I hate all other accents here, and I say this as a Wisconsinite with a noticeable Midwestern twang.

no yankee accent.

[Comte Arnau]

while after the Aragonese conquest the island was divided in two provinces : Upper Cape and Lower Cape, the first governed by feudatories of Castillan language, the second governed by feudatories of Catalan language, in this period the contacts between the two provinces were almost null, because Castillans hated Catalans and vice versa, and also because the governors feared that a rebellion could explode, for this reason they didn't see well that their subjects would go around; all these reasons have caused the isolation of the two provinces, that in three centuries have lived side by side almost without speaking together,

^ Even outside Iberia, Castilians and Catalans have always disliked each other. And so it will remain.

[Empecinado]

^ Even outside Iberia, Castilians and Catalans have always disliked each other. And so it will remain.

Only in your dreams.

[Comte Arnau]

Only in your dreams.

Sure, sure. Everybody else sees how love is in the air.

[Leo Iscariot]

no yankee accent.

Indeed.