Are Ashkenazi Jews Greek/Southern Italian or does their mix make them come out that way?

[7eleven]

It seems that in every DNA test Ashkenazim are almost identical to Southern Italians and Greek Islanders. Do they really come from them or is it just that Ashkenazim are a big mix of many groups which makes them come out that way?

I am half Ashkenazi half NW European and I asked Dr. McDonald to give me a 4 way mix and this is what he said

"English=0.539 Tuscan=0.260 Bedouin=0.175 Turkish=0.026

fit perfectly ... but the specific Jewish test is pretty clear. To explain without
Jewish ... or the some exotic combo like the above ... would require
some sort of Greek or some non-Cypriot Mediterranean island."

Though I have seen Italians also come up as Jewish on his analysis.

[Sikeliot]

Non-Cypriot Med island means Sicilian and Maltese.

All of them are basically the equivalent of Neolithic Middle Easterners with some minor Northern European and Indo-European admixture. I am not sure if it's coincidental or due to direct descent.

[Aquafina]

I honestly don't know, but I don't think we are descended from them. I think we have the same mix as them. :)

[alfieb]

Sicilians have Western European, Eastern European, Levantine and Maghrebi ancestry.

Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, being wanderers, have similar ancestry.

So it's not that Sicilians are Jews, or that Jews are Sicilians. Indeed, the Spanish Inquisition led to most of Sicily's Jews being deported, save for the few who converted to Catholicism. It's that we're more similar to each-other than we are to others who don't share our diverse heritage.

[Prince Carlo]

Ashkenazim don't cluster with mainland South Italians at all.

[kabeiros]

Neolithic origin, Phoenician colonization of Sicily, Greece(a few islands and Thebes) and Greco-Roman colonization of the Levant would already make eastern meds similar to each other a long time ago.

Furthermore, Jews have additional European influence which brings them even closer to us than we were in the past. Anyway, people with this genes have been proven to be ''ubermenschen'' throughout history :D

[Žołnir]

I watched Slovene documentary bout Jews in Slovene lands and they explained Ashkenazi steems from Ashkenaz which roughly means German lands. Anyways altho Wiki is often dubious source it dose provide similar answer;



The region of Ashkenaz was centred on the Rhineland and the Palatinate (notably Worms and Speyer), in what is now the westernmost part of Germany. Its geographic extent did not coincide with the German Christian principalities of the time and included northern France. How the name of Ashkenaz came to be associated in the rabbinic literature with the Rhineland is a subject of speculation.


In the 10th century, a distinctive Jewish culture formed in Central Europe which came to be called Ashkenazi, deriving its name from Ashkenaz. Though the region is no longer referred to by that name, the Jews who follow the traditions that originated in that culture are referred to as Ashkenazi Jews. Ashkenazi culture later spread into Eastern Europe and migrated to all parts of the world with the movement of Jews.

[Kassam]

It seems that in every DNA test Ashkenazim are almost identical to Southern Italians and Greek Islanders. Do they really come from them or is it just that Ashkenazim are a big mix of many groups which makes them come out that way?
This.

[Luchon20102012]

Ashkenazi jews don´t cluster at all with southern italian.

[Anglojew]

Combination of a confidence due to Levantine/Euro mix and also Phoenician/Roman admixure in Jews and Jewish admixture in Italians/Greeks.

After the Judean-Goth hybridization happened to create Ashkenazi Jews they travelled first to Gothic controlled Italy from where they then migrated to the Rhineland.

[Sikeliot]

Ashkenazi jews don´t cluster at all with southern italian.

This is not true.

[YeshAtid]

Combination of a confidence due to Levantine/Euro mix and also Phoenician/Roman admixure in Jews and Jewish admixture in Italians/Greeks.

After the Judean-Goth hybridization happened to create Ashkenazi Jews they travelled first to Gothic controlled Italy from where they then migrated to the Rhineland.

How much admixture approximately?

[Maleficent]

Their mix makes them come out that way. Plain and simple.

[YeshAtid]

They probably descended from converts during the Roman era.

[Maleficent]

They probably descended from converts during the Roman era.

If you really believe that, then they should re-colonize Italy, not Palestine.:rolleyes:

But nonetheless, your belief is unfounded so you can feel better about your own mix.:p

[Sikeliot]

If you really believe that, then they should re-colonize Italy, not Palestine.:rolleyes:

But nonetheless, your belief is unfounded so you can feel better about your own mix.:p


I think the reason Ashkenazis and Sicilians are genetically similar is due to some degree of intermarriage but more because of this;

Phoenicians in Sicily would have been similar to the original Israelites.
Both groups have Greek ancestry that they received after.
And Norman influence in Sicily is similar to the ancestry around the Rhine, where Ashkenazis became "Ashkenazi".

[YeshAtid]

If you really believe that, then they should re-colonize Italy, not Palestine.:rolleyes:

But nonetheless, your belief is unfounded so you can feel better about your own mix.:p

I'm fine with my mix. I get to live in both Israel (my homeland) and Italy. Maseltov, habibi!

[Maleficent]

I think the reason Ashkenazis and Sicilians are genetically similar is due to some degree of intermarriage but more because of this;

Phoenicians in Sicily would have been similar to the original Israelites.
Both groups have Greek ancestry that they received after.
And Norman influence in Sicily is similar to the ancestry around the Rhine, where Ashkenazis became "Ashkenazi".
There's also the fact that Jews mixed a quite a bit with Italians in Italy after being kicked out of Palestine and before finally settling in Germany, the 'homeland' of European Jewry.

[YeshAtid]

There's also the fact that Jews mixed a quite a bit with Italians in Italy after being kicked out of Palestine and before finally settling in Germany, the 'homeland' of European Jewry.
Does the fact you recognise the exile mean you recognize Israel's legitimacy ?

[Smeagol]

I'm fine with my mix. I get to live in both Israel (my homeland) and Italy. Maseltov, habibi!

True, you're probably more Israelite than most Palestinians.

[YeshAtid]

True, you're probably more Israelite than most Palestinians.

Southern Italians are predominantly Levantine, plus my AJ makes me pretty native to Israel. Please refrain from using the term "Palestinians", it insults the true Judean inhabitants of the land. Btw, you should claim Israeli citizenship as well. C'mon most American Jews do!

[Longbowman]

Considering Jewish haplogroups and genetic mixtures I might suggest their being 55-60% European, 35-40% Levantine and other MENA, and <5% North Asian and African.

AJs and SJs, that is, SJs leaning towards the 60% European mark and AJs at the 55%.

[Sikeliot]

There's also the fact that Jews mixed a quite a bit with Italians in Italy after being kicked out of Palestine and before finally settling in Germany, the 'homeland' of European Jewry.

Yes, that too.

[Longbowman]

The idea is a group of mainly Jewish men married a group of mainly Italian women and this group formed the genetic core of contemporary European Jews. Factor in later (predominantly Eastern European) admixture for AJs and Iberian for SJs and you have it.

[YeshAtid]

The idea is a group of mainly Jewish men married a group of mainly Italian women and this group formed the genetic core of contemporary European Jews. Factor in later (predominantly Eastern European) admixture for AJs and Iberian for SJs and you have it.

That's probably true, but then you also have the fact that a lot of Jews before the exile were converts from the Med basin, plus the influx of Levantine slaves into Italy.

[YeshAtid]

Both the anti-zionists and some Zionists, usually Revisionists have got it wrong. The Palestinians aren't entirely native, but they're simultaneously not as alien to the region as some Zionists make them out to be. A sizable amount are purely native, but a lot have Arabid and JB mixture.

[Longbowman]

Both the anti-zionists and some Zionists, usually Revisionists have got it wrong. The Palestinians aren't entirely native, but they're simultaneously not as alien to the region as some Zionists make them out to be. A sizable amount are purely native, but a lot have Arabid and JB mixture.

JB?

[YeshAtid]

JB?

Sub saharan ancestry- it's a latin derivative of some sort. Some Palestinians look mulatto.

[Sikeliot]

JB?

"Jungle bunny", an insulting term for black people.

[Smeagol]

Southern Italians are predominantly Levantine, plus my AJ makes me pretty native to Israel.

Predominantly old Levantine which is basically just European and the type of the Phoenicians, Pelasgians, and Etruscans.


Please refrain from using the term "Palestinians", it insults the true Judean inhabitants of the land.

True.


Btw, you should claim Israeli citizenship as well. C'mon most American Jews do!

I don't think I have enough Jewish ancestry, and anyway, I don't see the point.

[YeshAtid]

Predominantly old Levantine which is basically just European and the type of the Phoenicians, Pelasgians, and Etruscans.



True.



I don't think I have enough Jewish ancestry, and anyway, I don't see the point.
Indeed, ancient Levantines were indistinguishable from Italians and Greeks.
You have enough; you probably have more than me. If you're more than 1/8th, they'll let you in. Dual citizenship is very useful.

[Smeagol]

<5% North Asian and African.

Ashkenazi Jews are 1.5% African, but it's superior Aethiopid ubermensch, and not JB (Like the Palestinian Arabs have). Also 3% Northeast Asian according to ButlerKing, and I trust him on that because he seems like an expert on this kind of thing.


AJs and SJs, that is, SJs leaning towards the 60% European mark and AJs at the 55%.

Other way around.

[Longbowman]

The European Jews are an incredibly mixed population. Bear in mind many/most nations, such as the British, or French, or whatever, will have one very dominant YDNA haplogroup or even subclade (R1b in Western Europe for example) but amongst AJs the most common YDNA haplogroup, J (and really to compare J to R1b you should divide it into J1 and J2 in which case no haplogroup scores much over 25%) which is the YDNA of around 45% of Ashkenazi Jews: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Y-DNA_of_Ashkenazi_Jews. Even if they were this mixed whilst still in the Levant - bear in mind the Philistines or 'Sea Peoples' were a European people - they are still hugely mixed.

Let's look at the haplogroups themselves (for AJs only because a) SJs are incredibly similar genetically and b) there aren't really any good studies done on them because there are about four pure ones) from the Behar 2004 study. Even if we assume J to be entirely Levantine even though it's common in Southern Italy, and E1b1b to be half-Levantine half-European even though it's extremely common in Europe, R1b and I together are 20-25% amongst AJs (plus harder-to-place less-common clades like G and Q being presence).

Adding the minimum 25-30% 'European' YDNA to the 85-90% 'European' mtDNA as is widely accepted by current understanding we get to 110-120 for a rough estimate, halved to 55-60 (like I said) and let's assume 90% of the rest is Levantine.

[Sikeliot]

Do southern Italians and Jews have the same subclades of E1b and J2?

I know in Sicily, eastern Sicilians have more J2b, and western Sicilians more J2a.

[Smeagol]

You have enough; you probably have more than me.

Aren't you 1/4?

[YeshAtid]

Aren't you 1/4?

Officially, but my grandmother looked very northern European so it's probably less. My armenoid derives from my Italian side.

[Longbowman]

Ashkenazi Jews are 1.5% African, but it's superior Aethiopid ubermensch, and not JB (Like the Palestinian Arabs have). Also 3% Northeast Asian according to ButlerKing, and I trust him on that because he seems like an expert on this kind of thing.



Other way around.

Naturally :rolleyes: I agree about the NE Asian for AJs. They are an Eastern European population and were at the time Eastern Europe was subjected to Mongol invasions. Ukrainians are ~2.5% North Asian.

Nah, SJs are more European. Not the ones that live in Turkey, the ones that live in Spain, the Netherlands and Britain - Spanish Jews, not Mizrachis. Back in the good ol' days of anthropology books being all the rage they were noted for being fairer, lighter-eyed and haired than other Jews, too - bear in mind they had a lot more (mainly Iberian) admixture than other Jews during the late Middle Ages.

[Smeagol]

Officially, but my grandmother looked very northern European so it's probably less. My armenoid derives from my Italian side.

I'm probably between 1/8, and 1/4.

[Longbowman]

Do southern Italians and Jews have the same subclades of E1b and J2?

I know in Sicily, eastern Sicilians have more J2b, and western Sicilians more J2a.

Jews have J2a*, J2a1b, J*, and J1, according to Wikipedia (mainly).

The e1b1b lines seem quite Euro, mainly E1b1b1a with some E1b1b1c.

[Stormer99]

Sub saharan ancestry- it's a latin derivative of some sort. Some Palestinians look mulatto.

The ones who look mulatto shouldn't be called that. The only people who should are the people who's ancestors were there since the beginning.

[Smeagol]

Naturally :rolleyes: I agree about the NE Asian for AJs. They are an Eastern European population and were at the time Eastern Europe was subjected to Mongol invasions. Ukrainians are ~2.5% North Asian.

It's not from Mongols, it's from Uralics.


Nah, SJs are more European. Not the ones that live in Turkey, the ones that live in Spain, the Netherlands and Britain - Spanish Jews, not Mizrachis. Back in the good ol' days of anthropology books being all the rage they were noted for being fairer, lighter-eyed and haired than other Jews, too - bear in mind they had a lot more (mainly Iberian) admixture than other Jews during the late Middle Ages.

No, Sephardis are darker, and cluster south of Ashkenazis on PCA plots. I don't know what anthropologists you're talking about, but Coon said Ashkenazis were lighter.

[Smeagol]

The ones who look mulatto shouldn't be called that. The only people who should are the people who's ancestors were there since the beginning.

Palestinian Arabs are basically octoroons, and they don't have superior Aethiopid Caucasoid ubermensch blood, they have JB from the Arab slave trade.

[YeshAtid]

I'm probably between 1/8, and 1/4.
Cool, mischlinge are evidently superior to everybody else, no? Is your surname Jewish sounding ?

The ones who look mulatto shouldn't be called that. The only people who should are the people who's ancestors were there since the beginning.

Beginning? Palestinians are a mix of West African, Arabid, Maggrebian, Balkanite, Sudanese, French( Crusaders ), Levantine

[Stormer99]

Palestinian Arabs are basically octoroons, and they don't have superior Aethiopid Caucasoid ubermensch blood, they have JB from the Arab slave trade.

The octoroons are not native to the land and should not be called Levantines. They are Egyptians that migrated to Gaza. The only ones who should count as being from there are the people that were there from the beginning. Fairy's dad is not an octoroon. Do you use him in your generalizations?

[Stormer99]

Cool, mischlinge are evidently superior to everybody else, no? Is your surname Jewish sounding ?


Beginning? Palestinians are a mix of West African, Arabid, Maggrebian, Balkanite, Sudanese, French( Crusaders ), Levantine



The ones that have West African and Sudanese are not the ones who were there from the beginning. They are migrants that came from Egypt into Gaza.

[Longbowman]

It's not from Mongols, it's from Uralics.



No, Sephardis are darker, and cluster south of Ashkenazis on PCA plots. I don't know what anthropologists you're talking about, but Coon said Ashkenazis were lighter.

Yeah I'm 1/8 Judaeo-Spanish and they don't look any darker. I can't speak for the ones in the Levant but the ones here are a lot fairer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_and_Portuguese_Jews

^My family. You can read why it would be beneficial for them to look fair. Ultimately those with 'limpieza de sangre' decided they could tell a Marrano 'by his teeth' implying they stopped looking different from the host population.

[Smeagol]

Cool, mischlinge are evidently superior to everybody else, no? Is your surname Jewish sounding ?

No it isn't, but I'm not going to mention what it is on an internet forum.


Beginning? Palestinians are a mix of West African, Arabid, Maggrebian, Balkanite, Sudanese, French( Crusaders ), Levantine

Not French, or Balkanite though.

[YeshAtid]

I'm probably between 1/8, and 1/4.



The ones that have West African and Sudanese are not the ones who were there from the beginning. They are migrants that came from Egypt into Gaza.

Agreed, but they're still Palestinians. You're dehumanizing them essentially.

[Stormer99]

Agreed, but they're still Palestinians. You're dehumanizing them essentially.

No I am not. People who came from places like the Sudan or Egypt shouldn't be called Levantines just because their ancestors moved there. Levantine means native to the Levant.

[YeshAtid]

No it isn't, but I'm not going to mention what it is on an internet forum.



Not French, or Balkanite though.
That's fine.
Bosnians settled in Palestine, as did French crusaders and those from the Mandate era.

[Smeagol]

The octoroons are not native to the land and should not be called Levantines. They are Egyptians that migrated to Gaza. The only ones who should count as being from there are the people that were there from the beginning. Fairy's dad is not an octoroon. Do you use him in your generalizations?

Basically all Palestinian Arabs are octoroons with bantu slave untermensch ancestry.

[Smeagol]

No I am not. People who came from places like the Sudan or Egypt shouldn't be called Levantines just because their ancestors moved there. Levantine means native to the Levant.

Semites aren't native to the Levant. Also stop being so rayciss.

[YeshAtid]

No I am not. People who came from places like the Sudan or Egypt shouldn't be called Levantines just because their ancestors moved there. Levantine means native to the Levant.

It's implied, but I agree with you. Many Palestinians are quite uppity however.

[Stormer99]

Basically all Palestinian Arabs are octoroons with bantu slave untermensch ancestry.

People in the Middle East genetically vary within the same country. You are intellectually lazy and ignore individual genetic results such as those of Fairy's father. Are you prepared to call your supposed friend a "jigaboo"?

[Stormer99]

It's implied, but I agree with you. Many Palestinians are quite uppity however.

If you are genetically within the range of Lebanese, Syrian, Druze, or Samaritan, you are Levantine. If not, you are not Levantine and thus not native to the Levant. It's an objective measure. Anything else is subjective and based on social construct.

[YeshAtid]

If you are genetically within the range of Lebanese, Syrian, Druze, or Samaritan, you are Levantine. If not, you are not Levantine and thus not native to the Levant. It's an objective measure. Anything else is subjective and based on social construct.

Therefore, FQ can't be native. Based on all the figures I'm probably more native than her.

[Smeagol]

People in the Middle East genetically vary within the same country. You are intellectually lazy and ignore individual genetic results such as those of Fairy's father.

Most are octoroons.


Are you prepared to call your supposed friend a "jigaboo"?

Friend? I don't even know anyone on this forum in real life. Maybe you're friends are all people on internet forums, but mine aren't.

[Stormer99]

Semites aren't native to the Levant. Also stop being so rayciss.

Semites ARE native to the Levant. The only ones not native are the ones mixed with too much African like the Egyptian and Sudanese migrant offspring.

[Stormer99]

Most are octoroons.



Friend? I don't even know anyone on this forum in real life. Maybe you're friends are all people on internet forums, but mine aren't.


You said all, not most. You see Fairy? Rhett is NOT your friend and he admitted it here to all of us.

[Smeagol]

Semites ARE native to the Levant.

No. Even the original Afroasiatics came from Arabia.


The only ones not native are the ones mixed with too much African like the Egyptian and Sudanese migrant offspring.

Egyptians aren't Semites. :picard1:

[Smeagol]

You said all, not most. You see Fairy? Rhett is NOT your friend and he admitted it here to all of us.

Wow, you take these forums way too seriously...

[Stormer99]

No. Even the original Afroasiatics came from Arabia.



Egyptians aren't Semites. :picard1:

I know they aren't Semites. I said they were not native to the land and that many of the people there are fakers pretending to be indigenous. There are North Semites and South Semites. The Semites are the most native to the land, not the heavily black mixed people masquerading as natives.

[Stormer99]

Wow, you take these forums way too seriously...

Just telling her who her real friends are...

[YeshAtid]

Whether anyone likes it or not the Ashkenazim are the true natives of Israel. They cluster with the purest Levantines ( Cypriots), as do Sicilians.

[Smeagol]

Whether anyone likes it or not the Ashkenazim are the true natives of Israel. They cluster with the purest Levantines ( Cypriots), as do Sicilians.

North of Cypriots.

[Stormer99]

Samaritans are a better example of Levantines than Cypriots who are heavily mixed with Greek.

[Smeagol]

I know they aren't Semites. I said they were not native to the land and that many of the people there are fakers pretending to be indigenous. There are North Semites and South Semites. The Semites are the most native to the land, not the heavily black mixed people masquerading as natives.

Where do you think Semites came from? The South. Arabia.

[YeshAtid]

North of Cypriots.

They're nonetheless quite pure, whereas Palestinians are...

[Smeagol]

Samaritans are a better example of Levantines than Cypriots who are heavily mixed with Greek.

The base of the population is Arabid. Phoenicians were a good example of a mostly native Levantine Mediterranid people.

[Smeagol]

They're nonetheless quite pure, whereas Palestinians are...

A mix of Israelites, Arabs, and JB.

[Stormer99]

Where do you think Semites came from? The South. Arabia.

Arabians are Southern Semites. Northern Semites were always there. The Semites did not just originate in one place. They evolved throughout the Middle East.

[Smeagol]

Arabians are Southern Semites. Northern Semites were always there. The Semites did not just originate in one place. They evolved throughout the Middle East.

:rotfl: Are you joking or something. :D

[YeshAtid]

The base of the population is Arabid. Phoenicians were a good example of a mostly native Levantine Mediterranid people.

and Sicilians and Marionites are significantly Phoenician
http://www.dailyactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/stanley-tucci.jpg

[YeshAtid]

A mix of Israelites, Arabs, and JB.

Though mainly Arabs and blacks.

[Sikeliot]

and Sicilians and Marionites are significantly Phoenician
http://www.dailyactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/stanley-tucci.jpg

He's Calabrese.

[YeshAtid]

He's Calabrese.

My bad- still Phoenician influenced. Sicilians are synonymous with Southerners

[Stormer99]

:rotfl: Are you joking or something. :D

No. The Semites were always there. The people mixed with Egyptian and Sudanese migrants are recent comes that were never there before the 1800s.

[Smeagol]

No. The Semites were always there.

Did they come from Space?

[Stormer99]

Did they come from Space?

They originated all over the Middle East except for North Africa and Iran.

[Smeagol]

They originated all over the Middle East except for North Africa and Iran.

How can you expect people to take you seriously when you write things like this?

[Stormer99]

How can you expect people to take you seriously when you write things like this?

Because I know the things I say are correct.

[Smeagol]

Because I know the things I say are correct.

Do you realize that the Afroasiatic Urheimat is almost certainly Arabia?

[Maleficent]

Does the fact you recognise the exile mean you recognize Israel's legitimacy ?

It wasn't my people who exiled you.:rolleyes:

So no, I feel no 'guilt' in the matter.:coffee:

[Stormer99]

Do you realize that the Afroasiatic Urheimat is almost certainly Arabia?

The Samaritans have a high Southwest Asian component and they did not originate in Arabia.

[Smeagol]

The Samaritans have a high Southwest Asian component and they did not originate in Arabia.

Obviously they did partially. This explains why the speak an Afroasiatic language, and the base of their population is Arabid.

[YeshAtid]

It wasn't my people who exiled you.:rolleyes:

So no, I feel no 'guilt' in the matter.:coffee:

Yet Palestinians stole our land and ruined our temples. G-D gave Israel to the Jewish people, therefore it's ours. If a Palestinian converts, he's entitled to Y'Israel. Gone are the days where we're treated like filth, you mess with us you'll pay habibi.

[Stormer99]

Obviously they did partially. This explains why the speak an Afroasiatic language, and the base of their population is Arabid.

Their language is native to the Levant and it shares something in common because of the Semitic language structure. It is similar to Aramaic which is also native to the Levant.

[Smeagol]

Their language is native to the Levant and it shares something in common because of the Semitic language structure. It is similar to Aramaic which is also native to the Levant.

Afroasiatics originated in the south and spread north to the Levant. The Samaritans are heavily Arabid influenced.

[Maleficent]

Yet Palestinians stole our land and ruined our temples.They've done no such thing.:blah:

I disregard the rest.:)

[YeshAtid]

They've done no such thing.:blah:

I disregard the rest.:)

Who occupied the Holy Land pre 48?