Is the EU on too broad a scale?

[alfieb]

I have no problem with international organizations. That being said, Sarkozy's original plan for a Mediterranean Union (that unfortunately was watered-down) is probably more appealing in the long run than the actual EU.

Whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Muslim, the Mediterranean countries all have thousands of years of cultural ties, similar cuisines, climate, music, what have you.

I would probably feel more at home in Israel or Albania than I would in Sweden or Lithuania, and ultimately, integration will require a level of affinity and kinship with the fellow member-states that we don't have today.

An Anglophone Union, A Germanic Union, a Mediterranean Union, and the CIS for the Slavs who don't feel comfortable with the MU.

Four separate organizations for culturally distinct peoples. That's the correct way, in my view, to go forward, rather than a geographically-based union.

Your thoughts?

[RussiaPrussia]

this is a very narrow minded view from american. Southern europe is behind to the north but it doesnt mean its culturally arabian. Obviously the geographics of europe are enough to define the borders, there is no cultural connection to arab countries.

[Graham]

Like has been said, a union only works with similar, compatible, corruption-free, co-operative & comparable nations.

[SkyBurn]

The EU is an example of globalisation at work.

[alfieb]

this is a very narrow minded view from american. Southern europe is behind to the north but it doesnt mean its culturally arabian. Obviously the geographics of europe are enough to define the borders, there is no cultural connection to arab countries.

I'm an American who is also European. Italian citizen. Lived in Sicily. Lived in mainland Italy. Most Americans don't even hold a passport. So, the "outsider" branding applies less, or I'd like to think.

And "Arab" is a bullshit, loaded term to use because the "true" Arabs are from the Arabian Peninsula, whereas the Mediterranean "Arabs" are from the Maghreb and the Levant and certainly have more connections to, say, Cyprus or Malta than Iceland or Latvia do.

Would I ever visit Saudi Arabia or Oman? Of course not. Would I go to Lebanon or Tunisia? Sure. And chances are, it wouldn't feel all that foreign to me, as half of my family is from the more "Arab"-influenced part of Sicily, where couscous is more common than typical "Italian" pasta is.

[Libertas]

So Alfieb wants one of the most unstable areas on Planet Earth, North Africa (since the disastrous "Arab Spring" that was an Islamist triumph) to be united with Southern Europe.

What a joke.

Still he'd be very happy about the North Africans currently thronging Spanish And Italian streets.

[alfieb]

Uh, we already have ferries running on the daily basis that bring people from Tunisia to Sicily and back. Malta also has ferries to Tunisia. Tunisians are one of the most active immigrant groups to Sicily, and we are fine with this.

Tunisian and Sicilian interaction goes back several thousand years to when the Carthaginians colonized Sicily. Back then, we'd never heard of Scotland (well, Pictavia or whatever it was called at the time), and probably wouldn't care about them even if we had.

Obviously, integration with backwards, tyrannical regimes would be only limited. If someone wants a stronger union, they would have to reform their society and their government, much as the Eastern Europeans are being forced to do in order to join the EU.

[Graham]

What's so good about making larger countries? Apart from becoming more centralised & the supposed free market it creates.

[alfieb]

What's so good about making larger countries? Apart from becoming more centralised & the supposed free market it creates.

Nothing. I support smaller countries.

Free Scotland. Free Sicily. Free Kurdistan. Free the Basques. Free Flanders. Free Corsica.

I don't want the EU to become a country, nor would I want the Mediterranean Union to become a country, but if integration must happen, surely it is better to be integrated with people you are similar with than people you are not.

I share nothing in common with a pale, vodka-drinking atheist from the Baltic Sea who eats herring and listens to death metal.

As much as Turks are villainized on forums such as this one, I would gladly be stranded on a deserted island with a bunch of Turks over Icelandic people or Belarusians.

[Libertas]

So you prefer people who treat women like second-class citizens and are against alcohol and pork?

[alfieb]

To radical feminists, homosexuals, and neo-pagans? Yes.

They're not saying that I can't eat pork. They're saying that they don't want to because it's not halal, and I respect their choice.

A Semitic language is already one of the official languages of the EU. There are Muslim countries in Europe. It is ignorant to imply that countries that have nothing in common but geography should join together, but neighboring countries that share thousands of years of interaction should not.

[Libertas]

Sicily can join the Maghreb if it wants.

Leave the rest of us out of it.
Thanks.

[alfieb]

We were already part of the Maghreb 1,000 years ago.

And I'm not advocating joining them. I'm advocating localization over globalization. Mediterranean countries have Mediterranean interests at heart. Slavic countries have Slavic interests at heart. Baltic countries have Baltic interests at heart.

Greece doesn't give two shits about Denmark's concerns.

[Libertas]

Why should Greece give a shit for Morocco or Egypt except to keep out floods of migrants?

[alfieb]

If Morocco and Egypt are able to improve their own living conditions, there won't be Egyptian or Moroccan emigrants looking to get into Greece (which, considering the situation in Greece today.....)

Greece wanted their independence, and as a result Europe forced them to take on German and Danish nobles to rule them. Eventually, Greece finally had enough of the Northern European foreigners and became a Republic. They lived with Turkish and Italian rulers for far, far longer, because Italians and Turks weren't as foreign.

[Rouxinol]

Unions in Europe do not work. Europe as it is today has been made on strife between different European peoples. My country exists today because it has fought its neighbors of Leon and Castile back in the 11th century (and then the Moorish rule in the south). Examples such as this abound throughout Europe and many regions do want to separate from bigger "united nations" because they don't feel like they belong in any sort of union (e.g. Flanders, Scotland, Catalonia, Basque Country, etc.). Anyway, sooner or later the European Union will collapse so no need to worry. Thank God.

[Libertas]

Study more non-Sicilian South European history to see how South Europeans and North Africans were enemies for centuries.

[alfieb]

Study more non-Sicilian South European history to see how South Europeans and North Africans were enemies for centuries.

Study Spanish history to see how South Europeans and North Africans coexisted peacefully for centuries.

Until Catholics decided to start killing anyone who didn't agree with them.

The Roman Empire even had North African emperors of Libyan origin. How is that possible? Italians and Libyans are supposed to hate each other!

[RussiaPrussia]

I'm an American who is also European. Italian citizen. Lived in Sicily. Lived in mainland Italy. Most Americans don't even hold a passport. So, the "outsider" branding applies less, or I'd like to think.

And "Arab" is a bullshit, loaded term to use because the "true" Arabs are from the Arabian Peninsula, whereas the Mediterranean "Arabs" are from the Maghreb and the Levant and certainly have more connections to, say, Cyprus or Malta than Iceland or Latvia do.

Would I ever visit Saudi Arabia or Oman? Of course not. Would I go to Lebanon or Tunisia? Sure. And chances are, it wouldn't feel all that foreign to me, as half of my family is from the more "Arab"-influenced part of Sicily, where couscous is more common than typical "Italian" pasta is.

so if they are not arabs why they are speaking arabian?? Of course the middle Mediterranean used to be not so much different to europe as every country had its own language like berbian, eygptian etc and so where the religion and maybe had the same ethnicity like other roman countries. But the north africans mixed more and more. And when arabs invaded them they concerted to sunni islam and spoke arabian language instead their traditional.

Now compare that to european countries who have all their own language for every nation as well their own national church. Even the catholics are very different in each country. While the arabs have all sunni islam and speak arabian which is unlike european languages of afro asiatic background.

The most european islamic country outside of europe is probably iran. Persians are obviously whiter than their arabian counterparts, they speak an own persian language which is more similar to ours as its part of the indo eurasian language family. And they have their own unique shia islam which is heavily influenced by their national identity instead that of riads or mekkas.

[alfieb]

If Maltese are not English, why do they speak English?
If Irish are not English, why do they speak English?
If Corsicans are not French, why do they speak French?

Politics.

North Africans and Levantines are Arabized, but they are not Arabs. Genuine Arabs look like Bin Laden, not Meriam George.

[RussiaPrussia]

If Maltese are not English, why do they speak English?
If Irish are not English, why do they speak English?
If Corsicans are not French, why do they speak French?

Politics.

North Africans and Levantines are Arabized, but they are not Arabs. Genuine Arabs look like Bin Laden, not Meriam George.

these are weak countries. I spoke about core countries and like i said every country in europe has its own language but arabs didnt like to be that much different.

[alfieb]

Funny, I used to understand German very well but I've never heard anyone speaking Austrian.

A "weak" country that ruled over much of Europe, and never had a language of their own. They speak the same German that is spoken in Bavaria.

[Lithium]

I wish my country was independent enough to be able to stay away from such globalisation processes like the EU. I am up for unions based on shared history and culture (some kind of a Slavic union)

[Lemon Kush]

I wish my country was independent enough to be able to stay away from such globalisation processes like the EU. I am up for unions based on shared history and culture (some kind of a Slavic union)

I think it's in the interest of countries like Bulgaria to remain in the EU.

[Libertas]

Study Spanish history to see how South Europeans and North Africans coexisted peacefully for centuries.

Until Catholics decided to start killing anyone who didn't agree with them.

The Roman Empire even had North African emperors of Libyan origin. How is that possible? Italians and Libyans are supposed to hate each other!

I think you'll find that it was the Muslim Arabs who attacked Christians first, in the Middle East and North Africa starting in the mid-7th century.:picard1:

Septimius Severus was a Roman citizen as much as any Italian.

In any case provincials from Spain, Gaul and the East had hijacked the Roman Empire as Emperors, Senators and frontier legions from Trajan onwards.

[alfieb]

The Romans took the lands from the native Iberians. The Goths took the lands from the Romans. The Muslims took the land from the Goths. The Catholics took the lands from the Muslims.

But the Goths, the Romans, and the Muslims didn't force the native people to convert or die. That was my own co-religionists.

Roman citizenship aside, Septimus Severus was born in Libya, and the son of a Carthaginian. Saint Paul the Apostle was also a Roman citizen as much as any Italian, but he was clearly a Jew.

[Libertas]

Muslims didn't force Christians and Jews to convert but that was partly because these tolerated groups had to pay a special tax as non-Muslims.

[alfieb]

Which is far better than torture, burning at the stake, etc.

I'm hardly a Muslim-apologist myself, but hatred of neighboring peoples is extremely counter-productive.

[B01AB20]

in Spain 'the arabs', mostly moroccans and argelians, are simply the most disliked immigrants according to surveis, followed by local and foreign gypsies.

and these countries and societies are regarded as almost socially inhuman for our standards, but many many people from north africa would like to emigrate, not to saudi arabia with theirs faith brothers, but to europe, above all to france, but hey, if they could get out of morocco even for going to Russia it would be right.

great idea man, and I thought the simpleness of Zapatero was unmatched in the world... stay in america with your 'ideas', it will be much better for us.

[alfieb]

The same Spain that refuses to give Ceuta and Melilla back, while whining about Gibraltar? Those hypocrites?

Sometimes, the problem isn't all the immigrants. Sometimes, you need to look within your own character to find the solution.

[Virtuous]

The EU is evil, lets blame incompetence of governments and excessive loaning on EU's bureaucrats and currency!

[Virtuous]

Wait...

*reads crap that has been said before I posted*

ooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay....

*slowly exits thread*

[B01AB20]

The same Spain that refuses to give Ceuta and Melilla back, while whining about Gibraltar? Those hypocrites?

Sometimes, the problem isn't all the immigrants. Sometimes, you need to look within your own character to find the solution.

Ah infelice....

The people most interested in keeping ceuta and melilla under spanish sovereignity are the muslim, moroccan origen citzens of these cities, and the spanish goverment, ok.

http://www.laregion.es/imagenes/galeria/Visita%20de%20los%20Reyes%20a%20Ceuta%20y%20Melill a%20(11).jpg

But most of spaniards would give these cities to morocco or whoever wanted them, with the only condition that muslims would not come to mainland Spain.
Seriously, the antagonism, hostility and antiphaty between both shores of mediterranean sea is greater than the sea itself, and if you don't know that basic reality you really don't know much about south-europe.

[alfieb]

Because Spain is a racist country that has still not abandoned colonialism.

But that is neither here nor there. Sarkozy's original dream of a Mediterranean Union is the subject.

[B01AB20]

Because Spain is a racist country that has still not abandoned colonialism.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: you're american, no doubt.

maybe you're right... but if Spain is a racist colonialist country, dou you really think that France and Italy or Portugal are less racist or chauvinist than us?

and what do you think of the greek golden dawn? they must be super friendly to muslims right?

But in what world do you live? :picard1:

For your information Spain is the humble and friendly boy of the southern group, the rest are far 'worst'.


But that is neither here nor there. Sarkozy's original dream of a Mediterranean Union is the subject.

Sarkozy's original dream was Sarkozy himself, good riddance.

[Damião de Góis]

But most of spaniards would give these cities to morocco or whoever wanted them

Give Ceuta back to us. You didn't even bothered to change the flag after all these centuries...

http://0.tqn.com/d/gospain/1/0/j/H/-/-/ceuta_flag.jpg

[Incal]

The same Spain that refuses to give Ceuta and Melilla back, while whining about Gibraltar? Those hypocrites?

Back to whom?

[Lemon Kush]

I think being in the EU can benefit poorer countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, and the Baltic countries, because now many Bulgarians can find work in other EU countries where the oppurtunities for them are better than in Bulgaria. Now they won't need Visa/Passport/Residence Permit to stay there. Lot's of Bulgarians I know now work abroad in other EU countries like Spain, Italy,Germany, UK, The Netherlands and France where the employment oppurtunities and salaries are better and higher. So now they can support their families much better. Also it can benefit the countries they immigrate to because they are less likely to claim benefits like welfare and unemployment than the country's Nationals. Just my opinion though.

[ioan assen]

Europe has always been understood by the Europeans as a whole, even in medival times. There were no connection to Arab states, but antagonism and differenciation. Their culture is rooted in other, non European ideas. Thats why Spain has always been more connected to Germany or Sweden than say Marocco. And the main reason for that European identity: like it or not is christianity, even after the Great Schism and calvinism. Thats why Russia was undoubtedly among the great European powers. Thats why Western Europe sent crusaders to the Balkans, thats why the Balkanians were helping Frenchmen against Turks. We are not religious anymore, but the societies from Russia to France and from Finland to Bulgaria are based on common christian main core ideas, Roman law and ancient Greek ideas of democracy and many more uniting factors. None of this is shared with Asia (maybe minus Armenia and Georgia if we assume they are Asian) or Africa. If Egypt survived as coptic there would have been cultural connection to Europe...

[legolasbozo]

Europe has always been understood by the Europeans as a whole, even in medival times. There were no connection to Arab states, but antagonism and differenciation. Their culture is rooted in other, non European ideas. Thats why Spain has always been more connected to Germany or Sweden than say Marocco. And the main reason for that European identity: like it or not is christianity, even after the Great Schism and calvinism. Thats why Russia was undoubtedly among the great European powers. Thats why Western Europe sent crusaders to the Balkans, thats why the Balkanians were helping Frenchmen against Turks. We are not religious anymore, but the societies from Russia to France and from Finland to Bulgaria are based on common christian main core ideas, Roman law and ancient Greek ideas of democracy and many more uniting factors. None of this is shared with Asia (maybe minus Armenia and Georgia if we assume they are Asian) or Africa. If Egypt survived as coptic there would have been cultural connection to Europe...

Sorry mate i wish your words would be come true. But europe was a bit mess till 500 years ago. You were cutting each others throat off, plague was killing one third of your population.We, turks were uniting you guys. Actually sometime you were killing each other for your own benefits. You were stand together against us. And today, too many people hate us just because too many turks went europe for work. Thank god our economy is booming and europe lost it's attraction. Do you think when bulgarian go to europe for business opportunities local people embrace you like " my dear euoropean brother, give me a hug" they gonna unite and show their hatret towards unemployement balkan and polish peoples. Micro nationalism, That' the way it is. You are still can't see the truth, there are more shares you guys with each other, with turkey. İ m not saying let it your european dream go, but don't try to ignore east.Turkey was a bridge from asia to europe, and for 500 years everything was in europe, but tomorrow belongs to asia. But european delusion makes you blind.

[Libertas]

Which is far better than torture, burning at the stake, etc.

I'm hardly a Muslim-apologist myself, but hatred of neighboring peoples is extremely counter-productive.

It's better just to give in to them, I suppose.

Anything for peace and quiet.:picard1:
Most North African Muslims (apart from Egyptian protesters who will be hammered down) want a Muslim Mediterranean Union, not a secular one.

Where's your sense of reality?

The Roman Empire is long dead, you know, and it saw your island of Sicily as a source of grain, nothing more.
Read more and dream less, please.:rolleyes:

[RussiaPrussia]

Sarkozy's original dream was Sarkozy himself, good riddance.

obviously there was huge euphoria during the arab spring, now we know better. Arabs gonna be more arabian and not more democratic.