Classify Katerina Roza Botsaris

[Trun]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RmRRVvTtKqo/T46Dxpt9mII/AAAAAAAAAtg/VTRfIxCCO0A/s1600/462px-KaterinaRosaBotzaris.jpg

[Incal]

Cute. Who was she?

[Trun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katerina_Botsaris

She wasn't ethnic Greek however. Her father, Markos Botsaris, was from Voden.

[Panopticon]

Probably something along pred. North-Pontid or Atlanto-Ponto-Nordid. Noble features.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katerina_Botsaris

She wasn't ethnic Greek however. Her father, Markos Botsaris, was from Voden.

Correction: her father, Markos Botsaris, a Souliote and an Albanian, was from the Epirus region.

[Turkophagos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katerina_Botsaris

She wasn't ethnic Greek however. Her father, Markos Botsaris, was from Voden.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg/300px-Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

[Vojnik]

Her father was a hellinized Albanian neo-Greek freedom fighter. Their descendents would of lost their Albanian (Arvanite) identity by now.

Katherine Elizabeth Fleming:

“The Soultioes, who are of Albanian origin but usually are grouped separately, also had ancestors who served as exemplars for the community of Souli” (The Muslim Bonaparte: diplomacy and orientalism in Ali Pasha's Greece: 62).

[Scholarios]

Like most Epirote Greeks and Tosk Albanians, she appears some kind of Alpine.

[Trun]

According to Konstantin Irechek, Markos Botsaris may have been from Voden, and later moved to Epiros.

Either from Voden or Souli, he wasn't Greek but Albanian (or Bulgarian according to Irechek and other historians).

[Scholarios]

According to Konstantin Irechek, Markos Botsaris may have been from Voden, and later moved to Epiros.

Either from Voden or Souli, he wasn't Greek but Albanian (or Bulgarian according to Irechek and other historians).

We can make a new thread on origin of Souliotes for sure, as it is interesting. But Botsaris is in top 5 Greek heroes of Liberation- He's like Gotse Delcev for you guys or George Washington for Americans.

His people settled in Messenia and few in Arcadia in Greece after Epirus (or Edessa) failed to get liberated from Turks.

[Linet]

To me she look like typical Greek :rose:....twitch i hope the pain you have at you behinds to stop :sick: and you become again a happy person :joy

[Vojnik]

To me she look like typical Greek :rose:....twitch i hope the pain you have at you behinds to stop :sick: and you become again a happy person :joy

But she wasn't 'Greek'.

[Linet]

The opinion of someone who doesnt even know basic history or even his own....doesnt count darling :coffee:

[Vojnik]

The opinion of someone who doesnt even know basic history or even his own....doesnt count darling :coffee:

I know it hurts, but it's the truth. Markos Botsaris, the father of Roza, was an Albanian by ethnicity, which makes his daughter one too. If you deny this, then you don't know YOUR own history.

Did you know that Marco Bocari wrote the first Greek-Albanian dictionary?

[Scholarios]

I know it hurts, but it's the truth. Markos Botsaris, the father of Roza, was an Albanian by ethnicity, which makes his daughter one too. If you deny this, then you don't know YOUR own history.

Did you know that Marco Bocari wrote the first Greek-Albanian dictionary?

There was yet no Albanian nation, but the language his mother spoke with him in the crib was Archaic Albanian. The Souliotes were billingual and the toponyms and surnames of them are Greek, Albanian, and sometimes Slavic.

For instance, I'm thinking about creating a secret society called Philiki Etaireia (like Botsari was a member) and all members must swear to liberate Hellas from Islam and the Turks. Any Albanian or Bulgarians want to join my secret society? C'mon, one of our founding members was an Albanian from Voden!

[Absinthe]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RmRRVvTtKqo/T46Dxpt9mII/AAAAAAAAAtg/VTRfIxCCO0A/s1600/462px-KaterinaRosaBotzaris.jpg

On an irrelevant sidenote, Linet is right in that she looks typical Greek.

Compare with classic Greek actress Tzeni Karezi:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/GreekStylez83/RENA/Karezi11.jpg

[Queen B]

I know it hurts, but it's the truth. Markos Botsaris, the father of Roza, was an Albanian by ethnicity, which makes his daughter one too. If you deny this, then you don't know YOUR own history.

Did you know that Marco Bocari wrote the first Greek-Albanian dictionary?
No, the one that doesn't know shit, is you Vojnik.

First of all, Roza's mother was Hrisoula Hristaki, so , you can only debate about part of her Ethnicity.

Markos Botsaris, was a Souliotis. Vlachs and Chams called Souliotes as ''Graikous'', so their so-called ''compatriots'', didn't considered them Albanians in the first place.Now, according to Historians, Souli was populated from Greek and Albanian speaking people. The Albanian speaking people are said to come from Himara and Argirokastro, where this specific dialect of Albanian was speaked.(Himara and Argirokastro are full of Ethnic Greeks).

[Vojnik]

No, the one that doesn't know shit, is you Vojnik.

First of all, Roza's mother was Hrisoula Hristaki, so , you can only debate about part of her Ethnicity.

Markos Botsaris, was a Souliotis. Vlachs and Chams called Souliotes as ''Graikous'', so their so-called ''compatriots'', didn't considered them Albanians in the first place.Now, according to Historians, Souli was populated from Greek and Albanian speaking people. The Albanian speaking people are said to come from Himara and Argirokastro, where this specific dialect of Albanian was speaked.(Himara and Argirokastro are full of Ethnic Greeks).



"A Turkish force of four thousand men was surprised one summer night in 1823 by Marco Botsaris, one of the ablest champions of Greek independence, and three hundred and fifty Suliots, a warrior tribe of Albanian descent" (The companion guide to mainland Greece, Brian De Jongh :1983).

[rashka]

The Botsaris clan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Botsaris)came from the village of Dragani (today Ambelia), near Paramythia.

Does Dragani mean anything to anyone?


Interesting that: The province of Souli (Greek: Επαρχία Σουλίου) was one of the provinces of Thesprotia. It had the same territory as the present municipality. It was abolished in 2006.


I think the girl's phenotype would be a mediterranid type with some alpinoid influences.

[Trun]

Souliotes (Greek: Σουλιώτες, also spelled Souliots or Suliots) were a warlike community from the area of Souli, in Greece, who became famous across Greece for their resistance against the local Ottoman Pashalik of Yanina ruled by the Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha. After their defeat in 1803, the Souliotes were forced to move to the rest of Greece, and many of them played a prominent role in the Greek War of Independence starting in 1821, under leaders such as Markos Botsaris and Kitsos Tzavelas.

The Souliotes originally spoke their own sub-branch of the Cham Albanian dialect and eventually became bilingual in Greek and Albanian. After their assimilation, a language shift to Greek occurred, while the Souliotic dialect became extinct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souliotes

[Trun]

First of all, Roza's mother was Hrisoula Hristaki, so , you can only debate about part of her Ethnicity.

Source that her mother was ethnic Greek? According to Irechek's works, Markos's wife spoke only Bulgarian and Albanian.


To me she look like typical Greek


Linet is right in that she looks typical Greek.

So? This doesn't make her ethnic Greek alone.

[Queen B]

Kolokotronis answer to Lord Hamilton

''Εμείς Καπετάν ’μιλτον,
ποτε συμβιβασμόν δεν εκάμαμεν με τους Τούρκους.
’λλους έκοψε, άλλους εσκλάβωσε με το σπαθί και άλλα
καθώς εμείς εζούσαμε ελέυθεροι εις τα βουνά.

Το Γένος ποτέ δεν υποτάχτηκε στον Σουλτάνο.
Είχε πάντα το βασιλιά του,το στρατό του, τα κάστρα του.

Βασιλιάς του, ο Μαρμαρωμένος Βασιλιάς,
στρατός του οι Aρματολοί και οι Κλέφτες,
κάστρα του η Μάνη και το Σούλι...''

Translation

We , Captain Amilton, were never compromised with the turks.
Others were chopped, others were enslaved by the sword
as we were living free up in the mountains.

The Nation was never subjugated to the Sultan.
It has always had its King, its Army and its Castles.

King, the Marbled King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_XI_Palaiologos)
Army, the Armatoloi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armatoloi) and Kleftes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klepht)
Castles, Mani and Souli.


Since you play with book references, though, have a look at them as well.
''"Their contributions in that conflict, although less well known, can be compared to those of the Souliotes on land and the Hyd- riotes and Spetsiotes at sea. These people, like the Cheimarriotes, were known to be Albanian-speaking or bilingual, yet they identified them selves wholly with the Greek national cause'' Here (http://books.google.gr/books?ei=0jL_T6uKCOei4gTfp9DUBg&hl=el&id=4OBoAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22Their+contribution+in+that+conflict%2C+altho ugh+less+well+known%2C+can+be+compared+to+those+of +the+Souliotes+on+land%22&q=%22Their+contributions+in+that+conflict%2C+altho ugh+less+well+known%2C+can+be+compared+to+those+of +the+Souliotes+on+land+and+the+Hyd-+riotes+and+Spetsiotes+at+sea.+These+people%2C+lik e+the+Cheimarriotes%2C+were+known+to+be+Albanian-speaking+or+bilingual%2C+yet+they+identified+them+ selves+wholly+with+the+Greek+national+cause%22#sea rch_anchor)
' a common language was not sufficient to cement an alliance between Muslim Albanians and Albanian-speaking Greeks, such as the Souliotes, ..."''
Or here (http://www.google.gr/books?hl=en&lr=&id=A0mWfovlJ9cC&oi=fnd&pg=PR13&dq=jelavich+balkans+in+transition&ots=jxAaU2-gSP&sig=pulSHf51syK_wsWRNPyG5h5TXpc&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Souliotes&f=false)
You can also read some books of Lambros Koutsonikas, a souliotis warrior himself.

At the end, Botsaris himself said when first going to Ionian islands:
A Greek can't feel free if a British flag is waving ;)

[Trun]

There is a difference between feeling loyal to a nation, and being part of that nation.

Even his birth name isn't Greek (Marko Bocari).

Albanian-speaking Greeks...Greeks have never adopted foreign language or identity.

[Scholarios]

The Botsaris clan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Botsaris)came from the village of Dragani (today Ambelia), near Paramythia.

Does Dragani mean anything to anyone?


Interesting that: The province of Souli (Greek: Επαρχία Σουλίου) was one of the provinces of Thesprotia. It had the same territory as the present municipality. It was abolished in 2006.


I think the girl's phenotype would be a mediterranid type with some alpinoid influences.

I think Dragani is Slavic toponym. It was resettled by Greeks in Middle Ages who kept the toponyms, then by Vlachs followed by Arvanites in late Middle Ages when part of the population is Albanized.


The southward movement of the tribes was on a very large scale. It was also rapid, because towns and cities were bypassed (Dyrrachium, for instance, being captured only c. 1368) . It had two main effects It took possession of Epirus Nova, the area inland of the coastal strip from Dyrrachium to Valona; and it sent streams of migrants into most parts of the Greek peninsula and some of the Aegean islands. To the settled peoples they were a terror. “Deus misit hanc pestem," wrote the author of the Gesta Dei per Francos 2.293. They came, like a plague of locusts, in huge numbers ("in tanta quantitate numerosa") and in 1325 they ravaged and destroyed everything in Thessaly outside the fortified centres ("ornnia quae erant extra castra"). When they wanted to leave Thessaly and go elsewhere, many others appeared with their wives and children ("multicum uxoribus et filiis") and their combined forces proceeded to wreck other parts of Thessaly. John Cantacuzenus 1.495 described their raids on the west side of the peninsula in 1335: "The Albanoi who inhabit the area of Balagrita [Berat] and Kanina [inland of Valona], being adaptable to change and by nature revolutionary, ravaged and plundered … and oppressed the towns there with their brigandage and open raids"

At first the Albanians came mainly from north of the river Shkumbi. Later, in 1308, Albania was a fairly wide, large region irrigated by four rivers, Ersentha (Arzen), Mathia (Mati), Scumpino (Shkumbi), and Epasa (?Apsus, now Semeni) in the anonymous Descriptio Europae Orientalis (ed. Gorka). By 1335 they were in possession also of the area between Berat and the Gulf of Valona, which contains the rich plain of Malakaster. A generation later they held most of northern Epirus and an important group or tribe among them, the Mazarakii, was settled on the western side of the upper Kalarnas. The centre of Greek resistance was loannina, which controlled its own plateau and shielded Zagori against attack by the Albanians (but not against attack by the Vlachs). As the Albanians overran Acarnania and Aetolia but for many decades were unable to capture Arta, it follows that they advanced and probably settled in south-western Epirus and crossed the Gulf of Arta at its outlet at Preveza, an Albanian word meaning a crossing (26). The main stream flowed on and reached Naupactus in 1378.

NGL Hammond, The Ethnogenesis of the Albanians.

[Queen B]

Source that her mother was ethnic Greek? According to Irechek's works, Markos's wife spoke only Bulgarian and Albanian.
:picard1:
Because every Albanian and Bulgarian is called Hrusoula Hristaki :picard1: daughter of Captain Hristakis and granddaughter of Spiros Kalogeros :picard1:

[Trun]

:picard1:
Because every Albanian and Bulgarian is called Hrusoula Hristaki :picard1: daughter of Captain Hristakis and granddaughter of Spiros Kalogeros :picard1:

This doesn't make her an ethnic Greek still. Many elites in the Greek army weren't ethnic Greeks. Having Greek name =/= being ethnic Greek.

Why she isn't mentioned in any English-language source?

[Scholarios]

There is a difference between feeling loyal to a nation, and being part of that nation.

Even his birth name isn't Greek (Marko Bocari).

Albanian-speaking Greeks...Greeks have never adopted foreign language or identity.

Greeks in Italy forgot their language, and after 10th Century Greeks in Macedonian cities like Kilkes became Bulgarified.

[wvwvw]

Souliotes were of Greek descent and very patriotic

They were descendants of Epirote Greeks who migrated to the mountains in ancient times in order to flee from Roman forces. They never *EVER* had an Albanian conscience...Geez, I wonder why.

Athanasios Psallidas, a secretary of Ali Pasha, stated that Souli (also known as Kakosouli) contained Greek fighters who fought against the Albanians for many years.

Aside from contemporary accounts, the Souliotes were known as Greeks even by their enemies. Beli Pasha, son of Ali Pasha, sent letters to his father from April to December 1803 calling the Souliotes "Romans", "Romioi" and "Romegans", that is, ethnic Greeks. Ahmed Moufit, great-grandson of Ali Pasha's sister (Siachnisa), attempted to convert the Souliotes into Orthodox Albanians in his chronicles. He wrote angrily about how the Souliotes invited Ali Pasha's attack in 1789 because they called themselves Christian Greeks

[Linet]

There is a difference between feeling loyal to a nation, and being part of that nation.

Even his birth name isn't Greek (Marko Bocari).

Albanian-speaking Greeks...Greeks have never adopted foreign language or identity.

Did you even see what Dandelion posted :chin:?
He said WE, and then he talked about his ancestors past....if you are loyal, you say THEY and then you say how great they are....

[Panopticon]

Souliote has an Albanian etymology and they spoke Albanian. There is no question that they were not simply Albanian-speaking Greeks albeit they identified with the latter.


Kolokotronis answer to Lord Hamilton

''Εμείς Καπετάν ’μιλτον,
ποτε συμβιβασμόν δεν εκάμαμεν με τους Τούρκους.
’λλους έκοψε, άλλους εσκλάβωσε με το σπαθί και άλλα
καθώς εμείς εζούσαμε ελέυθεροι εις τα βουνά.

Το Γένος ποτέ δεν υποτάχτηκε στον Σουλτάνο.
Είχε πάντα το βασιλιά του,το στρατό του, τα κάστρα του.

Βασιλιάς του, ο Μαρμαρωμένος Βασιλιάς,
στρατός του οι Aρματολοί και οι Κλέφτες,
κάστρα του η Μάνη και το Σούλι...''

Translation

We , Captain Amilton, were never compromised with the turks.
Others were chopped, others were enslaved by the sword
as we were living free up in the mountains.

The Nation was never subjugated to the Sultan.
It has always had its King, its Army and its Castles.

King, the Marbled King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_XI_Palaiologos)
Army, the Armatoloi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armatoloi) and Kleftes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klepht)
Castles, Mani and Souli.


Since you play with book references, though, have a look at them as well.
''"Their contributions in that conflict, although less well known, can be compared to those of the Souliotes on land and the Hyd- riotes and Spetsiotes at sea. These people, like the Cheimarriotes, were known to be Albanian-speaking or bilingual, yet they identified them selves wholly with the Greek national cause'' Here (http://books.google.gr/books?ei=0jL_T6uKCOei4gTfp9DUBg&hl=el&id=4OBoAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22Their+contribution+in+that+conflict%2C+altho ugh+less+well+known%2C+can+be+compared+to+those+of +the+Souliotes+on+land%22&q=%22Their+contributions+in+that+conflict%2C+altho ugh+less+well+known%2C+can+be+compared+to+those+of +the+Souliotes+on+land+and+the+Hyd-+riotes+and+Spetsiotes+at+sea.+These+people%2C+lik e+the+Cheimarriotes%2C+were+known+to+be+Albanian-speaking+or+bilingual%2C+yet+they+identified+them+ selves+wholly+with+the+Greek+national+cause%22#sea rch_anchor)
' a common language was not sufficient to cement an alliance between Muslim Albanians and Albanian-speaking Greeks, such as the Souliotes, ..."''
Or here (http://www.google.gr/books?hl=en&lr=&id=A0mWfovlJ9cC&oi=fnd&pg=PR13&dq=jelavich+balkans+in+transition&ots=jxAaU2-gSP&sig=pulSHf51syK_wsWRNPyG5h5TXpc&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Souliotes&f=false)
You can also read some books of Lambros Koutsonikas, a souliotis warrior himself.

At the end, Botsaris himself said when first going to Ionian islands:
A Greek can't feel free if a British flag is waving ;)

I don't want to get into the 'x je y' game, but your citation underlines what many others point out about the Greek national identity. Souliotes were Albanians although they felt Greek for cultural and religious reasons. The feeling was mutual from the Greek side.

On the one hand, if ancestry and language determines ethnicity, the Souliotes were Albanians. On the other hand, if self-identification determines ethnicity, the Souliotes are Greeks. Or one could say Albanian by blood and tongue though Greek in thought. I have no qualms about accepting the latter. However, I think the facts should be considered; and the fact that the Souliotes were by no means pure Greeks should be accepted. Give some credit where it's due.

[Linet]

Souliotes were of Greek descent and very patriotic

They were descendants of Epirote Greeks who migrated to the mountains in ancient times in order to flee from Roman forces. They never *EVER* had an Albanian conscience...Geez, I wonder why.

Athanasios Psallidas, a secretary of Ali Pasha, stated that Souli (also known as Kakosouli) contained Greek fighters who fought against the Albanians for many years.

Aside from contemporary accounts, the Souliotes were known as Greeks even by their enemies. Beli Pasha, son of Ali Pasha, sent letters to his father from April to December 1803 calling the Souliotes "Romans", "Romioi" and "Romegans", that is, ethnic Greeks. Ahmed Moufit, great-grandson of Ali Pasha's sister (Siachnisa), attempted to convert the Souliotes into Orthodox Albanians in his chronicles. He wrote angrily about how the Souliotes invited Ali Pasha's attack in 1789 because they called themselves Christian Greeks

Perfect answer :thumb001:
...but please allow me to add... that Ali Pasha wanted to convert them to "Albanian" Orthodox because he was of Albanian origin himself and he considered that he succeded that, he would get their loyalty....
Unless for that, they rebelled and they died as Greeks that they were....


I don't want to get into the 'x je y' game, but your citation underlines what many others point out about the Greek national identity. Souliotes were Albanians although they felt Greek for cultural and religious reasons. The feeling was mutual from the Greek side.

On the one hand, if ancestry and language determines ethnicity, the Souliotes were Albanians. On the other hand, if self-identification determines ethnicity, the Souliotes are Greeks. Or one could say Albanian by blood and tongue though Greek in thought. I have no qualms about accepting the latter. However, I think the facts should be considered; and the fact that the Souliotes were by no means pure Greeks should be accepted. Give some credit where it's due.

My dear fellow :) , they were Greeks thats why they felt Greeks and even your fellow Albanians considered them Greeks.... i really dont understand how 200 years later you know better than all of those people that really lived back then...
What i can understand is that this reformation of history, is what the Albanian state profit dictates in order to be able to have claims....and show off crazy maps with Eperos in them...but since Souliotes were Greeks, the plan is not really working...

[Queen B]

Even his birth name isn't Greek (Marko Bocari).

Markos is a very common used name in Christians, because of him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_the_Evangelist)
So, we are not debation the name. Now to the surname
Botsa is from Venetian Bozza (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boca), a water can.
Botsa is still used in Ionian islands to describe the bottle.

My grandmother says "" Dos mou mia mpotsa giatso nero''
Give me a cold bottle of water.
(giatso -> Cold, still used only in Ionian :lol: )

[Trun]

Greeks in Italy forgot their language, and after 10th Century Greeks in Macedonian cities like Kilkes became Bulgarified.

Greeks in Kilkes in 10th century Bulgarified? Especially 10th century (after Simeon the Great) was the hardest period for Medieval Bulgaria, nobody would Bulgarify themselves then.

[Scholarios]

Greeks in Kilkes in 10th century Bulgarified? Especially 10th century (after Simeon the Great) was the hardest period for Medieval Bulgaria, nobody would Bulgarify themselves then.

Bulgarians got trounced by Byzantines for sure,but on the other hand, there must be some movement of populations. Galliciano is a Greek speaking settlementin Italy formed of refugees from near Kilkes. I guess i doesn't mean Kilkes itself was part of the same population movement. But I think this is the period of linguistic change for this part of Macedonia.

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr267/vertken/galliciano.gif

[Trun]

Bulgarians got trounced by Byzantines for sure,but on the other hand, there must be some movement of populations. Galliciano is a Greek speaking settlementin Italy formed of refugees from near Kilkes. I guess i doesn't mean Kilkes itself was part of the same population movement. But I think this is the period of linguistic change for this part of Macedonia.

I don't know, but Kilkis (Kukus/Кукуш) was a town with almost entirely Bulgarian population before the population exchanges after WW1.

So either all Greeks there adopted Bulgarian identity (highly unlikely) or they all moved (more possible).

By the way, the Czech writer Prokop Hoholousek described Kitsos Botsaris (Krustio Bochar - the father of Markos) as a refugee in Souli from Bulgaria, and stated that the count of Myrdites (Albanian Catholic tribe) referred to him as "The Bulgarian I know" when speaking to Fotos Tsavelas.

I don't know from where he found sources for such thing.

[Queen B]

This doesn't make her an ethnic Greek still. Many elites in the Greek army weren't ethnic Greeks. Having Greek name =/= being ethnic Greek.
Why she isn't mentioned in any English-language source?
Oh~Yeah right, while the ''non-Greek'' name of Markos Botsaris (as you said) doesn't make him Greek, right? :picard1:
What do you expect about her, other than mentioning her name? She is not a historical figure .

[Panopticon]

My dear fellow :) , they were Greeks thats why they felt Greeks and even your fellow Albanians considered them Greeks.... i really dont understand how 200 years later you know better than all of those people that really lived back then...
What i can understand is that this reformation of history, is what the Albanian state profit dictates in order to be able to have claims....and show off crazy maps with Eperos in them...but since Souliotes were Greeks, the plan is not really working...

I am speaking of their origins. It is quite clear that they were originally Albanian. The consensus of scholars agrees.

What you are speaking of is what they identified as.

Ethnicity is a weak concept, anyone can become anything if they want to. It is not an objective measure of anything.

It is quite a paranoid way of thinking that the Albanian state is behind this. Cynical too. If you were able to grasp anything you would have understood that there does not need to be a motive behind anything. These topics are not motivated by such gains. Not that you are in any position to know that.

And, ironically, you are the revisionist.


"To begin with, the Souliotes (celebrated by Byron and in Greek national history for their role in the liberation of Greece) were a "branch of the Tchamides, one of the three great divisions of the Tosks" (Finlay 1939:42)-in other words they initially spoke Albanian... the question of a national identity can hardly be applied here"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8520990/Culture-Civilization-And-Demarcation-at-the-Northwest-Borders-of-Greece

Does a geologist have to deal with flat earthers and do I have to deal with an ignorant idiot? The answer is: no. That is not meant to be insulting, I am just pointing out that there is nothing in it for me to discuss.

[Trun]

Oh~Yeah right, while the ''non-Greek'' name of Markos Botsaris (as you said) doesn't make him Greek, right? :picard1:
What do you expect about her, other than mentioning her name? She is not a historical figure .

As I said above. Greeks didn't adopt foreign identity. While Bulgarian and Christian Albanians often became Greeks in the past because Greece was the cultural center for Christians in the Ottoman Empire.

[Queen B]

As I said above. Greeks didn't adopt foreign identity. While Bulgarian and Christian Albanians often became Greeks in the past because Greece was the cultural center for Christians in the Ottoman Empire.
Find me the real ''non-Greek'' ancestry of them, then.:bored:

Because you can't be a Christakis or Kalogeros all of your life and NOT being Greek.
You could be a Delcev or Kovachev or Belushi or Frasheri one time or another in your life :rolleyes:

[Trun]

Because you can't be a Christakis or Kalogeros all of your life and NOT being Greek.

Were they?

[Queen B]

Were they?
Obviously.

[Žołnir]

Some minor similarities with my aunt.

[wvwvw]

They were ethnic Greek especially by blood. There was never a point in history where they identified as anything else than Greeks. The population of Souli was from all over the Epirus.

If you were a little more clever you would have seen that many Albanians from the clan of Tosks were Greek Orthodox. But none of them fought the liberty of Greece. None of them gave his life for the liberty of a Greek city as Mesologgi. None of them sacrifice the liberty and the safety of his family for the good of Greece and the Greeks! Only Souliotes! Why? Because they were GREEKS.

You make desperate efforts to make them Albanians and Bulgarians and this is meanness because you have proofs of their Greek but you deny them just because of your inferiority complex. And actually this is the essence of all this conversation.

[Scholarios]

As I said above. Greeks didn't adopt foreign identity. While Bulgarian and Christian Albanians often became Greeks in the past because Greece was the cultural center for Christians in the Ottoman Empire.

See, Twitch, this is something I just don't know if I agree with. In recent 100 years, it was often true, and the Romaio were powerful Hellenizers, I find it hard to believe that it never happened. I already mentioned the case of Kilkes, and how about Sofia in Bulgaria?

Albanians and Vlachs conquered Epirus and assimilated Greek Epirus- the places that Arvanites didn't conquer under their leaders are the places that remained Greek speaking. Zagora,Ionnina, Arta, etc.

Recent studies show even that Arbereshe in Italy have much less J2 YDNA than modern Albanians and Greeks.(3% vs. 17%) These Albanians fled to Italy before significant admixture to Greeks took place. That is, before Albanification of Greeks of Epirus.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TCs7IF2KuhI/AAAAAAAACfw/3ldKuf3iq9s/s1600/arbereshe.jpg

This, combined with the fact that Albs of the South seem to be identical to Greek Epirotes in physical anthropology makes me think that Greeks eventually took Albanian language.

*I should note that I think people like Labs are not generally related to Greeks- except ones that settled and assimilated to Greeks (like people in Greece with surname Liapis). I even think Himariotes are largely Hellenized Albanians- an example of the opposite taking place during ascendendancy of Rhomaio in Ottoman times. But in general, the opposite is true in Epirus.

[Archduke]

You make desperate efforts to make them Albanians and Bulgarians and this is meanness because you have proofs of their Greek but you deny them just because of your inferiority complex. And actually this is the essence of all this conversation.

:lol:

[safinator]

Recent studies show even that Arbereshe in Italy have much less J2 YDNA than modern Albanians and Greeks.(3% vs. 17%) These Albanians fled to Italy before significant admixture to Greeks took place. That is, before Albanification of Greeks of Epirus.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TCs7IF2KuhI/AAAAAAAACfw/3ldKuf3iq9s/s1600/arbereshe.jpg



Sorry to burst your bubble but Albanian and Greek J2 are entirely different.
Albanian clade is J2b(2) and Greek one is J2a.
You haven't missed what Dienekes wrote right?

[Linet]

And sorry to burst your bubble :bored: ...but at the time that Souli events happened....its people were considered Greeks by everyone...Greeks, Albanians and Turks...
Now in 2013, Albanians decided that it isnt so....without any proof but just their spammign the same things....when we have brought them proofs....
Continue spamming, because if you cared for a conversation, you would take in consideration all those things the Greek posters here gave you...

[Scholarios]

Sorry to burst your bubble but Albanian and Greek J2 are entirely different.
Albanian clade is J2b(2) and Greek one is J2a.

J2b is dominant in Albanians, but J2a is also present. I'd like to see a regional breakdown of J2 in Albania and Kosovo. My guess is J2b is dominant in North and Kosovo.

[safinator]

J2b is dominant in Albanians, but J2a is also present. I'd like to see a regional breakdown of J2 in Albania and Kosovo. My guess is J2b is dominant in North and Kosovo.
J2a is quite uncommon in Albanians and what you think frankly isn't important to the discussion.
J2b is second only to E-V13 in Albania and third in Kosovo after R1b.

[wvwvw]

Sorry to burst your bubble but Albanian and Greek J2 are entirely different.
Albanian clade is J2b(2) and Greek one is J2a.
You haven't missed what Dienekes wrote right?

I took a look at what Dienekes wrote and I found some other interesting info that you probably missed: :)

Dienekes said...
"Anyhow, what this shows is that Albanians as a whole have in aboundance all the typical Mediterranean Neolithic lineages, except G: J2b, E1b1b1 and I."

Kinda puts a damper on their Illyrian pretensions.

Maju said...
"Kinda puts a damper on their Illyrian pretensions".

Why? If they were there in the Neolithic, they were also there in the Illyrian period, where they might have adopted the language.

Dienekes said...
"Why? If they were there in the Neolithic, they were also there in the Illyrian period, where they might have adopted the language."

First of all, we don't know where "they" were in the Neolithic, and we certainly don't know that the present-day Albanians were in present-day Albania during the Illyrian period.

Second, if their language turned out to be of Illyrian origin (doubtful), it would be a reasonable conclusion that they indeed ADOPTED the language, as the Illyrians were reckoned to be one of the northern nations, which doesn't harmonize very well with the predominantly Southern gene pool of present-day Albanians.

[King Claus]

slightly alpinized pontid

[Scholarios]

J2a is quite uncommon in Albanians and what you think frankly isn't important to the discussion.
J2b is second only to E-V13 in Albania and third in Kosovo after R1b.

What you think, especially without even one source isn't important to the discussion. the double standard that greeks should acknowledge the obvious contribution of albanians to greek culture and genetics while albanians pretend their history and people are untouched or pure is an annoyance, but again, typically balkanesque.

[safinator]

I took a look at what Dienekes wrote and I found some other interesting info that you probably missed: :)

Dienekes said...
"Anyhow, what this shows is that Albanians as a whole have in aboundance all the typical Mediterranean Neolithic lineages, except G: J2b, E1b1b1 and I."

Kinda puts a damper on their Illyrian pretensions.

Maju said...
"Kinda puts a damper on their Illyrian pretensions".

Why? If they were there in the Neolithic, they were also there in the Illyrian period, where they might have adopted the language.

Dienekes said...
"Why? If they were there in the Neolithic, they were also there in the Illyrian period, where they might have adopted the language."

First of all, we don't know where "they" were in the Neolithic, and we certainly don't know that the present-day Albanians were in present-day Albania during the Illyrian period.

Second, if their language turned out to be of Illyrian origin (doubtful), it would be a reasonable conclusion that they indeed ADOPTED the language, as the Illyrians were reckoned to be one of the northern nations, which doesn't harmonize very well with the predominantly Southern gene pool of present-day Albanians.
Yes we all know Dienekes and a random Internet guy are reliable sources.
I cited Dienekes before since he 's a buddy of yours, but it's not important go search every Y-DNA study and make a confrontation.
And E-V13 is a quite likely candidate for Illyrians, E-V13 in Greece can be easily explained ...

[Scholarios]

Yes we all know Dienekes and a random Internet guy are reliable sources.
I cited Dienekes before since he 's a buddy of yours, but it's not important go search every Y-DNA study and make a confrontation.
And E-V13 is a quite likely candidate for Illyrians, E-V13 in Greece can be easily explained ...

Anyways, Epirus is clearly not Albanian until 14th Century Migrations, however the YDna adds up. This is recorded. It could have been Greek, Slav, Vlach, Martian, doesnt matter.

Halstallt culture (Illyrians) were R1b, like their descendants in rest of Europe.

[7eleven]

Definitely Pontid.

[Anthropologique]

Pontid mostly. Not standard Greek looking.

[safinator]

Anyways, Epirus is clearly not Albanian until 14th Century Migrations, however the YDna adds up. This is recorded. It could have been Greek, Slav, Vlach, Martian, doesnt matter.

Halstallt culture (Illyrians) were R1b, like their descendants in rest of Europe.
Do you have any source for all of this?

[Scholarios]

Do you have any source for all of this?

Of course I do. And I don't believe you already do not know (and swore it's author as your sworn enemy). But for the sake of posterity, let's post it:


The penetration of the Greek mainland which we have described occurred during the hundred or more years after 1325. The opportunity arose through the decline and disruption of the Byzantine Empire and the wars which followed between the various small principalities of Greeks, Serbs, Catalans, Venetians and others. One of the pressures which set the Albanians and others in motion came from the expanding power of the Serbs which reached its peak under the rule of Stephen Dusan (1331-1355), who subjugated Epirus and Acarnania. A contributory factor seems to have been overpopulation among the Albanians (24) - always a prolific people and underpopulation in mainland Greece as a result of internal collapse and foreign intervention. The strongest single group of invaders was that of the Vlachs which pressed down into Thessaly and opened the way there for the Albanians. But the most numerous by far were the Albanian-speakers, and their main line of invasion and penetration was down the western side of northern and central Greece (25) (see Maps 11-13).

At first the Albanians came mainly from north of the river Shkumbi. Later, in 1308, Albania was a fairly wide, large region irrigated by four rivers, Ersentha (Arzen), Mathia (Mati), Scumpino (Shkumbi), and Epasa (?Apsus, now Semeni) in the anonymous Descriptio Europae Orientalis (ed. Gorka). By 1335 they were in possession also of the area between Berat and the Gulf of Valona, which contains the rich plain of Malakaster. A generation later they held most of northern Epirus and an important group or tribe among them, the Mazarakii, was settled on the western side of the upper Kalarnas. The centre of Greek resistance was loannina, which controlled its own plateau and shielded Zagori against attack by the Albanians (but not against attack by the Vlachs). As the Albanians overran Acarnania and Aetolia but for many decades were unable to capture Arta, it follows that they advanced and probably settled in south-western Epirus and crossed the Gulf of Arta at its outlet at Preveza, an Albanian word meaning a crossing (26). The main stream flowed on and reached Naupactus in 1378.

Once in possession of most of north-western Greece, the Albanians opened the way for other immigrants. Offshoots of Albanians and Vlachs entered Boeotia, Attica and Euboea, having probably come from summer pastures on Mt Parnassus and from southern Aetolia; and other groups of Albanians forced an entry or gained an invitation of entry into the Peloponnese, sometimes crossing over the western part of the Gulf of Corinth and sometimes coming to the Isthmus of Corinth. In many parts of the mainland co-existence of immigrants and Greeks was practised. But not in Epirus, which bore the main brunt. There the Greek pocket of resistance, which preserved the Greek language even when its ruler was Serb or Italian, was the plateau of loannina and its hinterland (primarily Zagori). A typical example of Greek withdrawal into the interior is afforded by the movement of a bishopric from Photice (by Paramythia) to Vela (in the upper Kalamas valley) and finally to Konitsa (in the upper Aous valley) (27). When 'Isaou', the Italian ruler of loannina, passed to the offensive in 1399, he had already won over the Mazarakii (Albanians) and the Malakasaei (perhaps Vlach-speakers) and he recruited Greeks evidently from Zagori, Papingo (above Konitsa), and "Druinoupolis with Argyrokastro and the great Zagoria" (probably the high country northeast of Argyrokastro, of which a part is still called Zagorie) (28) . He went then to ‘Mesopotamo', which I take to have been (like the modern Mesoyefira) below Konitsa at the confluence of the Aous and the Voidhomati; for he aimed to advance in the direction of Dibia, ie. via Korce and Ochrid (Epeirotica 2.237). His aim was to join hands with the Greeks who maintained their independence on the frontier of western Macedonia.


NGL Hammond- Ethnogenesis of Albanians.


http://www.forumilir.com/download.php?id=501&f=34&sid=85aa0d79890d30ae2c131f4eef431709

http://www.forumilir.com/download.php?id=502&f=34&sid=85aa0d79890d30ae2c131f4eef431709

http://www.forumilir.com/download.php?id=500&f=34&sid=85aa0d79890d30ae2c131f4eef431709

As far as R1b Illyrians, it's widely accepted theory of relation between Celts and Illyrians- the former being primarily R1b. There is enough R1b in Albanians, Serbs, and Greeks that it's not totally unlikely. (if Illyrians were homogenous and not just Ancient Greek term for"Northern Barbarians")

[Nadezhda89]

Pontid.

[Tyfani]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katerina_Botsaris

She wasn't ethnic Greek however. Her father, Markos Botsaris, was from Voden.


epic facepalm... Soon I will see somewhere claiming Kolokotronis was a Zulu...

By the way she looks a typical Greek woman of that times...

[Loki]

As far as R1b Illyrians, it's widely accepted theory of relation between Celts and Illyrians- the former being primarily R1b. There is enough R1b in Albanians, Serbs, and Greeks that it's not totally unlikely. (if Illyrians were homogenous and not just Ancient Greek term for"Northern Barbarians")

So you are suggesting that E-V13 is mostly related to Greek expansion? Which seems likely to me.

[Vojnik]

epic facepalm... Soon I will see somewhere claiming Kolokotronis was a Zulu...

By the way she looks a typical Greek woman of that times...

Kolokotronis wasn't 'Greek' either. Want evidence?

[Scholarios]

So you are suggesting that E-V13 is mostly related to Greek expansion? Which seems likely to me.

Yes, that is one possibility.And although I have come to see the pattern of Ydna distribution to be too complex to explain solely by historical migrations records, it isn't just people like Dienekes who think E-V13 is Greek migration evidence.


Results 19% of the Phokaian and 12% of the Smyrnian representatives were derived for haplogroup E-V13, characteristic of the Greek and Balkan mainland, while 4% of the Provencal, 4.6% of East Corsican and 1.6% of West Corsican samples were derived for E-V13. An admixture analysis estimated that 17% of the Y-chromosomes of Provence may be attributed to Greek colonization. Using the following putative Neolithic Anatolian lineages: J2a-DYS445 = 6, G2a-M406 and J2a1b1-M92, the data predict a 0% Neolithic contribution to Provence from Anatolia. Estimates of colonial Greek vs. indigenous Celto-Ligurian demography predict a maximum of a 10% Greek contribution, suggesting a Greek male elite-dominant input into the Iron Age Provence population. Conclusions Given the origin of viniculture in Provence is ascribed to Massalia, these results suggest that E-V13 may trace the demographic and socio-cultural impact of Greek colonization in Mediterranean Europe, a contribution that appears to be considerably larger than that of a Neolithic pioneer colonization.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

[Scholarios]

Kolokotronis wasn't 'Greek' either. Want evidence?

Kolokotronis' ethnic origin is ambiguous at best, though he was captain of a regiment of souliotes (also mavromichalis, a pure maniote led souliotes)


Markos Botsaris was a Souliote, so was his enemy Tzavellas. Andreas Vokos (Miaoulis) was an Arvanite (from Hydra, his family originating from Fiylla in Euvoia).Laskarina Pinotsi (Bouboulina) was also an Arvanite from Hydra.(her husband was a Greek though, who financed her expeditions against the Ottomans) Ioannis Kolletis was a indeed Vlach from Ioannina.

Odysseus Androutsos was not an Arvanite, neither was Theodoros Kolokotronis or Georgios Karaiskakis. Androutsos was born in Ithaka but his mother was from Preveza and his father from Livanates, Pthiotis and had further ancestry from Zakynthos, partly of noble Venetian roots.

Kolokotronis was from Arcadian parents, though he was born in Messenia. In addition he was a short stocky guy..(Alpine). Don't believe something about him being a "tall Albanian". British writers made confused mistakes by his association with other figures.


Don't believe everything Risto Stefov says. He's just the more cowardly Canadian version of Golden Dawn propagandists.

Also, they all swore to die and defend Hellas and Orthodox Church.. Like VMRO died to defend Greater Bulgaria.

[Tyfani]

the poster above me speaks the facts... I will not rewrite them...

[Vojnik]

Kolokotronis' ethnic origin is ambiguous at best, though he was captain of a regiment of souliotes (also mavromichalis, a pure maniote led souliotes)


Markos Botsaris was a Souliote, so was his enemy Tzavellas. Andreas Vokos (Miaoulis) was an Arvanite (from Hydra, his family originating from Fiylla in Euvoia).Laskarina Pinotsi (Bouboulina) was also an Arvanite from Hydra.(her husband was a Greek though, who financed her expeditions against the Ottomans) Ioannis Kolletis was a indeed Vlach from Ioannina.

Odysseus Androutsos was not an Arvanite, neither was Theodoros Kolokotronis or Georgios Karaiskakis. Androutsos was born in Ithaka but his mother was from Preveza and his father from Livanates, Pthiotis and had further ancestry from Zakynthos, partly of noble Venetian roots.

Kolokotronis was from Arcadian parents, though he was born in Messenia. In addition he was a short stocky guy..(Alpine). Don't believe something about him being a "tall Albanian". British writers made confused mistakes by his association with other figures.


Don't believe everything Risto Stefov says. He's just the more cowardly Canadian version of Golden Dawn propagandists.

Also, they all swore to die and defend Hellas and Orthodox Church.. Like VMRO died to defend Greater Bulgaria.


See what Rigas the Vlach defined a 'Greek' back in 1797, and then you will get a picture of who those 'Greeks' were during the Greek War of Independence.

Does it matter if Kolokotronis was short and stocky? not all Albanians have to be tall. Besides, apparently he was tall.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/greekpictures.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/greekpictures201.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/greekphoenixpic.jpg



I do not get my information from Stefov regarding the ethnicities of the modern Greek freedom fighters. Kolokotronis, along with many of his compatriots, were of Arvanite (Albanian) ancestry.


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/coloalbo.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/coloalbo110.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/coloalbo111.png

Read this too:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/albodance.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/albodance1.png

"A totally distinct race of men from the Greeks"

[Scholarios]

See what Rigas the Vlach defined a 'Greek' back in 1797, and then you will get a picture of who those 'Greeks' were during the Greek War of Independence.

Does it matter if Kolokotronis was short and stocky? not all Albanians have to be tall. Besides, apparently he was tall.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/greekpictures.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/greekpictures201.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/greekphoenixpic.jpg



I do not get my information from Stefov regarding the ethnicities of the modern Greek freedom fighters. Kolokotronis, along with many of his compatriots, were of Arvanite (Albanian) ancestry.


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/coloalbo.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/coloalbo110.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/coloalbo111.png

Read this too:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/albodance.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/albodance1.png

"A totally distinct race of men from the Greeks"

I've seen all the quotes before, but it doesn't contradict what I have said. No one doubts the Tsamiko or Fustanella came from Epirus- but British authors are ambiguous or mistaken about his Albanian origin. He was from Libovitsi originally, an area outside of the area of Arvanite settlement. He did lead a band of Souliotes (among others). This doesn't discount that he may have had Arvanite ancestry, but he himself was not.

Historical Arvanite or mixed villages.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0xfjf0AF2bE/TwDlCngbxyI/AAAAAAAAABo/s2UtQMSVcwE/s1600/arvanites.gif


He even writes about his father in his autobiography, that he was an Armatole,placed in charge by the Turks with expelling revolting Albanians in the Morea.

http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/85nxq8kpts1usmf0/images/125-4953e66820.jpg

http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/85nxq8kpts1usmf0/images/126-ae70df8d31.jpg



While Kolokotrones was fighting these Albanians, they cried out: Why dont you give us any quarter? To which he replied;

Why should we give you any quarter, Albanians? When you have laid waste to my country and done us so many ills and made us your slaves?

Your turn is now, ours is to come, replied the Albanians:

Kolokotrones father made towers of the heads of the Albanian rebels at Tripolitsa.

and he says


Albanians held my father in such disdain, they used the oath: " May I be saved from the sword of Kolokotrones!"

pg 86 English Translation Kolokotronis: Kleft and Warrior:

btw, all of that research is from Stefov. Don't bullshit anyone.

[Scholarios]

Another interesting point about the "Arvanite status" of Kolokotronis's followers;


The first Serbian presence in the Greek Revolution occurred during the revolt's outbreak in Wallachia (1821). The political and military leader of the revolution, Alexandros Ypsilantis, apart from Greeks and other ethnicities, had a number of Serbian fighters under his command, known collectively as “Arvanites”.[3] Some of the notable “Arvanites” were: Captains Milenko Stoikovic, Petar Dobrniak, Chatzi Prontan Gregorievic, Mlanten Milovanovic and Archimandrite Servos,[4] head of 300 Greeks and Serbians, who was killed in the battle. All the above were the leaders of mixed units of Greeks and Serbians .


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kZ0iGADoa8Y/UQdqFBAEY3I/AAAAAAAAATY/nGLgLQCKE4c/s512/serbs%2520as%2520arvanites.jpg

^ Trikoupis Spyridon, History of the Greek Revolution, 2nd edition, London, 1860 volume A', page 24 (in Greek): "Arvanites were called in the two hegemonies (Moldavia, Wallachia, early 19th c.) the mixed Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians, connected by the same dogma and living by mercenarism"
^ Many Serbs are referred in Greek sources with the ethnonym “Servos” (Σέρβος)
^ Protopsaltis G. E., Serbian and Montenegrin Philhellenes during the Greek Revolution, 1821 (Diplomatic arbitrations – Military area), p. 77. In: Cooperation between Greeks and Serbs ..., pp. 65-81. English abstract in pp. 270-272

Perhaps a new definition of the term Arvanites is needed in some instances. Bulgarians, Serbs, Hellenes all being identified as Albanians. Bizarre.