Azerbaijan problems

[Loki]

I wasn't sure where to post this, but since the video is dedicated to Hungarians, I might as well post it here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLI99q6Qbyo

It seems Azerbaijanis got a pretty raw deal, and Armenia is hell-bent on claiming Nagorno-Karabakh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh) too ... and prepared to go to war over it. They make no secret about it.

Despite the ceasefire, fatalities due to armed conflicts between Armenian and Azerbaijani soldiers continued.[66] On January 25, 2005 PACE adopted Resolution 1416, which condemns the use of ethnic cleansing against the Azerbaijani population, and supporting the occupation of Azerbaijani territory.[67][68] On 15–17 May 2007 the 34th session of the Council of Ministers of Foreign Affairs of the Organization of Islamic Conference adopted resolution № 7/34-P, considering the occupation of Azerbaijani territory as the aggression of Armenia against Azerbaijan and recognizing the actions against Azerbaijani civilians as a crime against humanity, and condemns the destruction of archaeological, cultural and religious monuments in the occupied territories.[69]

At the 11th session of the summit of the Organization of the Islamic Conference held on March 13–14, 2008 in Dakar, resolution № 10/11-P (IS) was adopted. According to the resolution, OIC member states condemned the occupation of Azerbaijani lands by Armenian forces and Armenian aggression against Azerbaijan, alleged ethnic cleansing against the Azeri population, and charged Armenia with the "destruction of cultural monuments in the occupied Azerbaijani territories."[70] On March 14 of the same year the UN General Assembly adopted Resolution № 62/243 which "demands the immediate, complete and unconditional withdrawal of all Armenian forces from all occupied territories of the Republic of Azerbaijan".[71] As of August 2008, the United States, France, and Russia (the co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group) are mediating efforts to negotiate a full settlement of the conflict, proposing a "a referendum or a plebiscite, at a time to be determined later," to determine the final status of the area, return for some territories under Karabakh's control, and security guarantees.[72] Ilham Aliyev and Serzh Sarkisian traveled to Moscow for talks with Dmitry Medvedev on 2 November 2008. The talks ended in the three Presidents signing a declaration confirming their commitment to continue talks.[73] The two presidents have met again since then, most recently in Saint Petersburg.[74]

[Methmatician]

To be fair, Armenians lost half their territory to Turkey.

[Loki]

To be fair, Armenians lost half their territory to Turkey.

Yes, that is true. And if Armenia still had those lands, Turkey wouldn't have been plagued with the Kurdish problem today.

[Hayalet]

To be fair, Armenians lost half their territory to Turkey.
No, they had lost all their territory to the Byzantines, which Turks conquered and have kept ever since.

[Methmatician]

No, they had lost all their territory to the Byzantines, which Turks conquered and have kept ever since.

Turkey, not Turks. That lost territory now belongs to the country known as 'Turkey'.

[Hayalet]

Turkey, not Turks. That lost territory now belongs to the country known as 'Turkey'.
I'm not following you. Let me just say modern Turkey has no territory that hasn't been under Turkish rule for at least five centuries.

[Musso]

I'm not following you. Let me just say modern Turkey has no territory that hasn't been under Turkish rule for at least five centuries.

Yes but the Turkey founded by Ataturk was in many ways different from the Ottoman Empire that existed before. Turkish revolutionaries under Ataturk took over a good portion of Armenian lands that were allotted to the future Armenian state in the Treaty of Sevres. The revolutionaries also tried to take over Eastern Armenia, but failed, due to successful defence on part of the Armenians.

[Hayalet]

The revolutionaries also tried to take over Eastern Armenia, but failed, due to successful defence on part of the Armenians.
When? How? Turks never lost a battle against Armenians in the war of 1920.

[Loki]

I updated the link to the video in the original post. Worth watching ...

[Onur]

Yes but the Turkey founded by Ataturk was in many ways different from the Ottoman Empire that existed before.
The new Turkish republic is different from Ottoman empire but it`s a continuation of it, a reformed and modernized one. The Turkish republic of 1923 never denied the Ottoman heritage and the founders of new republic proved that by accepting the payback of the debt remained from Ottoman era. If they would prefer to deny Ottoman heritage, they could have simply declared that the new Turkish republic is a totally different state and they refuse to have any responsibility of what happened in Ottoman era and refuse to pay their debt all together. They could have said that in 1923 BUT they didn't do that.


Turkish revolutionaries under Ataturk took over a good portion of Armenian lands that were allotted to the future Armenian state in the Treaty of Sevres.
There was no such thing as "Armenian lands" back in 1923. Armenians was just one of the minority group inside the Ottoman empire just like Greeks, Bulgarians, Gypsies, Jews and others.

Let alone 1923, there was no such thing as "Armenian lands" even in 11th century when the Seljuk empire conquered that territory. The Seljuks took over that territory from the Roman empire. It was the land of Rum, the eastern Romans. Armenian people was a minority inside the Roman empire again, just like they were inside the Seljuk and Ottoman states. When Turks conquered Anatolia back in 11th century, there was no such a thing as "Armenian lands" here. If you have a problem with the destruction of your "Armenian lands", then you better yell at today`s Greeks who claims eastern Roman/Byzantine heritage today. You should blame them about the destruction of your Armenian state, not the Turks.

Also, Treaty of Sevres always remained on paper but never implemented. So it was null and invalid since the beginning. Tough, your words didn't surprise me because you speak about "nonexistent things" just like most Armenian blabbers.

[Musso]

When? How? Turks never lost a battle against Armenians in the war of 1920.
and these battles?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_sardarapat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bash_Abaran

These two battles effectively stopped further Turkish aggression into Eastern Armenia.


The new Turkish republic is different from Ottoman empire but it`s a continuation of it, a reformed and modernized one. The Turkish republic of 1923 never denied the Ottoman heritage and the founders of new republic proved that by accepting the payback of the debt remained from Ottoman era. If they would prefer to deny Ottoman heritage, they could have simply declared that the new Turkish republic is a totally different state and they refuse to have any responsibility of what happened in Ottoman era and refuse to pay their debt all together. They could have said that in 1923 BUT they didn't do that.


There was no such thing as "Armenian lands" back in 1923. Armenians was just one of the minority group inside the Ottoman empire just like Greeks, Bulgarians, Gypsies, Jews and others.

Yeah but the government/ideology of the Turkish Republic was radically different from that of Ottomans.

Armenians lived in Ottoman Empire for centuries. But that doesn't take away from the fact, that good portion of Armenian ancestral land is in Eastern Turkey, the land where Armenians arose, and lived far before arrival of Turks.


Let alone 1923, there was no such thing as "Armenian lands" even in 11th century when the Seljuk empire conquered that territory. The Seljuks took over that territory from the Roman empire. It was the land of Rum, the eastern Romans. Armenian people was a minority inside the Roman empire again, just like they were inside the Seljuk and Ottoman states. When Turks conquered Anatolia back in 11th century, there was no such a thing as "Armenian lands" here. If you have a problem with the destruction of your "Armenian lands", then you better yell at today`s Greeks who claims eastern Roman/Byzantine heritage today. You should blame them about the destruction of your Armenian state, not the Turks.

Also, Treaty of Sevres always remained on paper but never implemented. So it was null and invalid since the beginning. Tough, your words didn't surprise me because you speak about "nonexistent things" just like most Armenian blabbers.

You don't get it. There's the concept of ancestral lands. The lands where your ethnogenesis occurred and your culture developed. Then there's the concept of political land. These lands were under the rule of many different empires, including independent Armenian kingdoms. Rome controlled lands stretching to Jerusalem. Doesn't make Jerusalem their ancestral land.

[Hayalet]

and these battles?
Overly romanticized, considering the Ottoman army was in Baku when the Great War ended. Besides, I said:


When? How? Turks never lost a battle against Armenians in the war of 1920.

[RussiaPrussia]

whats up with this turkic huangarian philia?? Werent huangarians a turkish colony back in the day? One speaks uralic the other turkic, there is no connection.

[Musso]

Overly romanticized, considering the Ottoman army was in Baku when the Great War ended. Besides, I said:

Overly romanticized? Those battles stopped the Turkish invasion of Eastern Armenia. So it was pretty significant. At least for us.

[Hayalet]

Overly romanticized? Those battles stopped the Turkish invasion of Eastern Armenia. So it was pretty significant. At least for us.
No, they don't have any significance. Red arrows in this map show Ottoman troop movements few months after those battles:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/The_Battle_of_Baku_1918.png

Regardless, the modern Armenian-Turkish border wasn't drawn then, but in the war of 1920.

[Musso]

No, they don't have any significance. Red arrows in this map show Ottoman troop movements few months after those battles:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/The_Battle_of_Baku_1918.png

Regardless, the modern Armenian-Turkish border wasn't drawn then, but in the war of 1920.

and as you see, Turkish movements circumvent a good portion of the Eastern Armenian territory. If Turks had won those battles, they would have absorbed Eastern Armenia as well and made more direct approaches towards Persia and Baku from the Eastern Armenian heartland.

[Loki]

and as you see, Turkish movements circumvent a good portion of the Eastern Armenian territory. If Turks had won those battles, they would have absorbed Eastern Armenia as well and made more direct approaches towards Persia and Baku from the Eastern Armenian heartland.

What do you think of Armenian reluctance to accept international consensus that Nagorno-Karabakh is Azerbaijani land?

[Musso]

What do you think of Armenian reluctance to accept international consensus that Nagorno-Karabakh is Azerbaijani land?

International consensus is that the Karabakh problem should be solved within the OSCE Minsk Group format, which emphasizes the concepts of 'territorial integrity' and 'right of people's self determination. The international community is not saying for Armenia to return Karabakh, they are saying (at least the relevant ones) that the problem should be solved within this group. The declaration of independence by Karabakh was in line with existing Soviet Law at the time and represented the implementation of self determination due to the circumstances, a right that is enshrined in the UN ideals as well. You should remember that many of these borders were devised by Stalin and other such Soviet leaders wanting to divide and conquer the South Caucasus. For this reason, when Soviet Union broke apart there were so many conflicts.

[Hayalet]

and as you see, Turkish movements circumvent a good portion of the Eastern Armenian territory. If Turks had won those battles, they would have absorbed Eastern Armenia as well and made more direct approaches towards Persia and Baku from the Eastern Armenian heartland.
This map shows the region after those battles took place. And are we looking at the same thing? Because it looks to me like "Eastern" Armenia was basically overrun and Turks even bypassed Yerevan (эривань).

[Onur]

International consensus is that the Karabakh problem should be solved within the OSCE Minsk Group format, which emphasizes the concepts of 'territorial integrity' and 'right of people's self determination.
WTF are you blabbering. What "people" and self-determination you talking about?

You killed 10.000s of Azerbaijanis in Karabakh region in 1990s and forcefully expelled out one million more of them. Currently, there is not even single Azerbaijani living in Karabakh today. So, what "self-determination" you talking about?

[Partizan]

To be fair, Armenians lost half their territory to Turkey.


Yes, that is true. And if Armenia still had those lands, Turkey wouldn't have been plagued with the Kurdish problem today.

Armenian territory? I would not say so:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Prorportions_des_populations_musulmanes_grecques_e t_armeniennes_en_AsieMineure_d%27apres_la_statisti que_du_livreJaune.png

Armenians were not majority there for centuries. Actually, even state of Armenia is a product of Russian imperialism by settling Armenians to Azerbaijani Turkic land lately.

Also Loki, I see no difference between Kurds and Armenians about separatist aims.


Yes but the Turkey founded by Ataturk was in many ways different from the Ottoman Empire that existed before. Turkish revolutionaries under Ataturk took over a good portion of Armenian lands that were allotted to the future Armenian state in the Treaty of Sevres. The revolutionaries also tried to take over Eastern Armenia, but failed, due to successful defence on part of the Armenians.

1.Treaty of Sevres is irrelevant to demographics. Overwhelmingly Turkish areas such as Aegean coast, West-Central Anatolia, Southern Anatolia, Northern Iraq, Northern Syria(those were also overwhelmingly Turkish until 1950's-1960's) et cetera were divided between Armenia, Greece, Britain, France and Italy. If you want to play "history" card for İzmir and Erzurum, than I ask, what Britain has to do with Iraq or France has to do with Southern Anatolia? Were Konya and Antalya historical Italian cities with predominantly Italian population? Thankfully Atatürk defeated the "imperialism which wants to destroy us and capitalism which wants to swallow us" and invalidated imperialist plans about wiping Turkish nation from the map.
2.Actually we couldn't re-conquer historical Western Azerbaijan because, this area was seized by our the then ally Soviet Union when we were in doors of Gümrü.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alexandropol


Armenians lived in Ottoman Empire for centuries. But that doesn't take away from the fact, that good portion of Armenian ancestral land is in Eastern Turkey, the land where Armenians arose, and lived far before arrival of Turks.

Do you think Turks arrived Anatolia and South Caucasus just in 1071? :rolleyes:

About Kimmerians (http://www.szabir.com/blog/scythian-sarmat-ancestors-of-balkarians-and-karachais/)

About Kipchaks/Bun-Turks (http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/jg/pdf/jg2007c.pdf) and also here (http://kavtaradze.wetpaint.com/page/Georgian+Chronicles+and+the+raison+d'%C3%AAtre+of+ the+Iberian+Kingdom)


whats up with this turkic huangarian philia?? Werent huangarians a turkish colony back in the day? One speaks uralic the other turkic, there is no connection.

:picard1:

Huns, Cumans and several Oghur tribes are also elements of Hungarian ethnogenesis. Hungary was called as "Tourkia" in Byzantine sources for a period.

Plus, Ural-Altaic language theory still has supporters in academic circles.

[RussiaPrussia]

Plus, Ural-Altaic language theory still has supporters in academic circles.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GOlxR_kKfXM/UHLdwt-k7YI/AAAAAAAAAKo/dqV-xm43f3M/s1600/Genetic+Map+of+Europe.png

then call me brother, russians are almost the same in ethnic compensation to estonians and finns.

:rolleyes:

[Partizan]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GOlxR_kKfXM/UHLdwt-k7YI/AAAAAAAAAKo/dqV-xm43f3M/s1600/Genetic+Map+of+Europe.png

then call me brother, russians are almost the same in ethnic compensation to estonians and finns.

:rolleyes:

Actually I always thought proto-Turkic people and modern Slavs had similarities but unfortunately blood is not the importance. Feelings and national identity et cetera are rather important, we are currently against each other if we are even long lost brothers or something. For example if I would end up with zero Central Asian admixture from 23andme, I would still view myself Turkic.

[Loki]

WTF are you blabbering. What "people" and self-determination you talking about?

You killed 10.000s of Azerbaijanis in Karabakh region in 1990s and forcefully expelled out one million more of them. Currently, there is not even single Azerbaijani living in Karabakh today. So, what "self-determination" you talking about?

It's interesting that Armenians are going on about happenings in 1918 in Turkey, yet they did the same in the 1990's to the Azerbaijanis! Talk about hypocrisy.

[Hoca]

Yes, that is true. And if Armenia still had those lands, Turkey wouldn't have been plagued with the Kurdish problem today.
We don't have Kurdish problem. We have PKK problem that particular countries support

[Partizan]

It's interesting that Armenians are going on about happenings in 1918 in Turkey, yet they did the same in the 1990's to the Azerbaijanis! Talk about hypocrisy.

1990's is really recent. Actually one of my favorite Turkish intellectuals, Hüseyin Adıgüzel, has a point. He says, Turkish historians who wrote books for 1915 events are trapped by Armenians since Armenians do not want before and after of the era to be talked. If Turkish historians wouldn't be that stuck into only disproving 1915, if they would dig history more, they would find Armenians' fifth column activities for Russians back to late 18.th century, Armenian massacres against Turks back to 19.th century and events such as Baku Massacre in 1918.

To me, the Armenian whining for 1915 is not only historical revisionism and lying, it is also hiding the darker parts of Armenian history by being drama queens.

[Musso]

WTF are you blabbering. What "people" and self-determination you talking about?

You killed 10.000s of Azerbaijanis in Karabakh region in 1990s and forcefully expelled out one million more of them. Currently, there is not even single Azerbaijani living in Karabakh today. So, what "self-determination" you talking about?

Maybe Azerbaijan should have refrained from bombing the capital of its "territory" with Grad missiles, where schools and residential buildings were being hit and many civilians being killed as a result, and this started from the beginning. Please cite the source that 10,000s of Azeri civilians were killed by Armenian forces. And self-determination, based on Soviet Law, in implementing our right of self-determination based on legal Soviet law, in return we got grad missiles being fired into the territory. The only other option at that point was war.

IN response to Partizan...you don't really understand what I was saying. The Armenian Highlands has always been the ancestral lands of the Armenians. This is not disputed. Those lands have been under the rule of many different empires and so forth. You should really research what it means for a land to be an 'ancestral land' of a given people. It means, the land where the ethnogenesis of that people occurred and the land where the people's history/culture has developed. If you look at historical maps dating back to Roman Empire, the Armenian Highlands is labelled as Armenia and in history this is not a disputed fact.

[Onur]

It's interesting that Armenians are going on about happenings in 1918 in Turkey, yet they did the same in the 1990's to the Azerbaijanis! Talk about hypocrisy.
I believe what happened to Azerbaijanis in Karabakh was even more worse because Armenians continued to live in Turkey after the events in 1915. There are 35.000 local Armenians who never leaved Turkey during and after WW-1 and 80.000 more illegal Armenians in Turkey today.

Azerbaijanis was a big majority in Karabakh before 1991 but today there is not even single Azerbaijani in there. In fact, there are no Turks in Armenia because it`s impossible for a Turk to live in Armenia. If i go there today and openly declare my Turkish identity in Yerevan, it`s quite possible that i would be killed.

On the other hand, 35.000 Armenians continues to live in Turkey without any problem and we also nurture the 80.000 more illegal Armenian immigrants.



Please cite the source that 10,000s of Azeri civilians were killed by Armenian forces.
Are you seriously gonna deny murders and forceful expulsion of Azerbaijanis during the Karabakh conflict in 1990s?

I would say fuck you if this is your intention.

[Chuck Norris]

I believe what happened to Azerbaijanis in Karabakh was even more worse because Armenians continued to live in Turkey after the events in 1915. There are 35.000 local Armenians who never leaved Turkey during and after WW-1 and 80.000 more illegal Armenians in Turkey today.

Azerbaijanis was a big majority in Karabakh before 1991 but today there is not even single Azerbaijani in there. In fact, there are no Turks in Armenia because it`s impossible for a Turk to live in Armenia. If i go there today and openly declare my Turkish identity in Yerevan, it`s quite possible that i would be killed.

On the other hand, 35.000 Armenians continues to live in Turkey without any problem and we also nurture the 80.000 more illegal Armenian immigrants.



Are you seriously gonna deny murders and forceful expulsion of Azerbaijanis during the Karabakh conflict in 1990s?

I would say fuck you if this is your intention.

Yeah, he or she is as it never happend. Get a life dude. Typical delusional hypocrite. Typical Turk.

[Chuck Norris]

1990's is really recent. Actually one of my favorite Turkish intellectuals, Hüseyin Adıgüzel, has a point. He says, Turkish historians who wrote books for 1915 events are trapped by Armenians since Armenians do not want before and after of the era to be talked. If Turkish historians wouldn't be that stuck into only disproving 1915, if they would dig history more, they would find Armenians' fifth column activities for Russians back to late 18.th century, Armenian massacres against Turks back to 19.th century and events such as Baku Massacre in 1918.

To me, the Armenian whining for 1915 is not only historical revisionism and lying, it is also hiding the darker parts of Armenian history by being drama queens.

Drama queens? Get a life man. You are here on this forum seven days a week spreading lies man. Get a life. It has been established what happened. Please go to library and sign up for a library card then go research the topic. Ask the library "Ermani Genocide" ...oh wait I forgot in Turkey you can't talk about the Armenian Genocide because you go to jail. You can't even make fun of Turks...oh my ...what a "secular democracy"? Please, it is so easy to highlight how even the Turkish government violates the rights of Turks. Get a life move on. It is so easy. Your a moving target with a arrow on your back. Turks have no credibility.

[Armenian Bishop]

Maybe Azerbaijan should have refrained from bombing the capital of its "territory" with Grad missiles, where schools and residential buildings were being hit and many civilians being killed as a result, and this started from the beginning. Please cite the source that 10,000s of Azeri civilians were killed by Armenian forces. And self-determination, based on Soviet Law, in implementing our right of self-determination based on legal Soviet law, in return we got grad missiles being fired into the territory. The only other option at that point was war.

Yes, Azerbaijani military units pounded Stepanakert, the capital of Artzakh (also known as Karabakh), with grad missiles and aircraft bomber missions, for several years, from 1988 until 1992. Grad Missiles from Khojaly to the North of Stepanakert, from Shusha to the West of Stepanakert, and from Agdam to the East of Stepanakert were all directed at the Armenian Capitol of Artzakh (Karabakh). When Armenian military units captured all 3 of these attack bases (Khojaly, Shusha, and Agdam), they found that the Azeri-Turkish military units used Armenian Churches as ammunition depots for their grad missiles.

I'm old enough to remember it in the newspaper articles of the time, and I remember reading about it. When Armenians liberated Shusha, they found piles and piles of grad missiles in their church -- an Armenian priest blest the church in a moving service. After the blessing, the church was re-opened, and is again a holy place for Armenians in the vicinity of Shusha. The use of a church, as an ammunition depot, so that it can be blown to bits, is a loathing and hateful gesture against the Armenian Christians who sought to liberate those churches from the destructive hands of the Azeri-Turks.

Fortunately, Armenians were able to capture those grad missiles and grad missile launchers. And, they captured the numerous Azeri Tanks, as well. Many captured Azeri Tanks had the red & white Turkish star and crescent engraved on them, because Turkey was providing military equipment to Azerbaijan, during the Karabakh War. Anyway, by 1992, those captured grad missiles and tanks were pounding Azeri military units, and put them to flight.

[Scholarios]

I didn't want to comment, as I feared that my bias would make me spew bullshit or be rude. But it seems some Turkish posters here have covered that base quite completely.

C'mon guys, where the hell do you want the Armenians to go? Just wipe 'em all out. Some unconscious but all pervasive racism is evident in this thread.

I'm looking at you Onur;


If you have a problem with the destruction of your "Armenian lands", then you better yell at today`s Greeks who claims eastern Roman/Byzantine heritage today. You should blame them about the destruction of your Armenian state, not the Turks.

That's the most half-ass pass the blame remark here, you should get a Gold Medal in scapegoating.

[Anulik]

I can't believe the amount of crap here. Everything in the world to them is Azeri or Turkish. Pathetic, biased, hateful, denial, and disgusting.

[Chuck Norris]

I didn't want to comment, as I feared that my bias would make me spew bullshit or be rude. But it seems some Turkish posters here have covered that base quite completely.

C'mon guys, where the hell do you want the Armenians to go? Just wipe 'em all out. Some unconscious but all pervasive racism is evident in this thread.

I'm looking at you Onur;



That's the most half-ass pass the blame remark here, you should get a Gold Medal in scapegoating.

What credibility? Azerbaijan is being lead by a dictator that rewards axe-murderers with apartments and money for killing Armenians in cold-blood. How can you even take anything these people "debate" seriously? It is all bullshit Turkish antics. Just make fun of them and move on or just be rude. It ends the debate quickly. Best philosophy.

[Loki]

How can you even take anything these people "debate" seriously? It is all bullshit Turkish antics. Just make fun of them and move on or just be rude. It ends the debate quickly. Best philosophy.

Typical. You guys don't want to debate and get rude when someone dares to challenge your oh-so-holy ideas.

Talk and debate goes on whether you participate or not.

[Scholarios]

Typical. You guys don't want to debate and get rude when someone dares to challenge your oh-so-holy ideas.

Talk and debate goes on whether you participate or not.

You forget that some people here are actually missing basic facts with which to debate, and are not open to hearing ones that disagree with their already formed notions.

Bullying Armenians is a national past-time with some people and it's just tiresome to treat Azerbaijan like some kind of underdog when they obviously are sandwiching the Armenians.

I don't knowwho you mean by you guys. I hope it isn't me...

[Onur]

I'm looking at you Onur;

That's the most half-ass pass the blame remark here, you should get a Gold Medal in scapegoating.
I have just indicated an historical fact there. When the very first Turkish state arouse here in 11th century, there was no such a state as "Armenia". The ancient Armenian state has been destroyed by the Romans and Armenians was just a minority group inside the eastern Roman empire. We conquered the land of Rum/Romans, not the land of Armenians.

So, if Armenians have a problem with the destruction of their state, then they should blame the eastern Romans. Who adopts the heritage of eastern Romans aka Byzantines today? It`s the modern Greeks.

[Loki]

You forget that some people here are actually missing basic facts with which to debate, and are not open to hearing ones that disagree with their already formed notions.

Bullying Armenians is a national past-time with some people and it's just tiresome to treat Azerbaijan like some kind of underdog when they obviously are sandwiching the Armenians.

I don't knowwho you mean by you guys. I hope it isn't me...

LOL no I wasn't talking about you.

Thing is ... Armenians don't want to move on. They will never stop going on about 1918-ish time. There was even another World War after that. Many more people were killed, expelled, etc. Yet modern German, Polish and Russian people get on just fine. Even the vast majority of Jews don't blame modern Germans for the holocaust.

As for Armenians ... I'm sorry but I've noticed they carry this deep bitterness and hatred, and would never be friendly with a Turk, not even on an individual basis. That is what causes me to emphasize the imbalance in attitude.

[gregorius]

LOL no I wasn't talking about you.

Thing is ... Armenians don't want to move on. They will never stop going on about 1918-ish time. There was even another World War after that. Many more people were killed, expelled, etc. Yet modern German, Polish and Russian people get on just fine. Even the vast majority of Jews don't blame modern Germans for the holocaust.

As for Armenians ... I'm sorry but I've noticed they carry this deep bitterness and hatred, and would never be friendly with a Turk, not even on an individual basis. That is what causes me to emphasize the imbalance in attitude.

Nice words but not true , On individual basis I've got turkish friends.
The Jewish genocide is acknowledged while Armenian is not.

[Loki]

Nice words but not true , On individual basis I've got turkish friends.


Well I'm glad to be proven wrong on this point in your case!

[Musso]

I have just indicated an historical fact there. When the very first Turkish state arouse here in 11th century, there was no such a state as "Armenia". The ancient Armenian state has been destroyed by the Romans and Armenians was just a minority group inside the eastern Roman empire. We conquered the land of Rum/Romans, not the land of Armenians.

So, if Armenians have a problem with the destruction of their state, then they should blame the eastern Romans. Who adopts the heritage of eastern Romans aka Byzantines today? It`s the modern Greeks.

Armenian history has been turbulent, in that many empires have waged war in the Armenian Highlands, and Armenian dynasties have as a result risen and fallen. Of course, us being under control of several empires over time, including our own, doesn't take away from the fact that Armenian Highlands has always been historically Armenian lands. The political status doesn't matter, it matters that these are historic Armenian lands where Armenians have lived ever since their ethnogenesis. This is not really controversial as it's a historic fact.

[Onur]

Armenian history has been turbulent, in that many empires have waged war in the Armenian Highlands, and Armenian dynasties have as a result risen and fallen. Of course, us being under control of several empires over time, including our own, doesn't take away from the fact that Armenian Highlands has always been historically Armenian lands. The political status doesn't matter, it matters that these are historic Armenian lands where Armenians have lived ever since their ethnogenesis. This is not really controversial as it's a historic fact.
And you would still live in your ancestral lands today if you wouldn't ally with Russians and French to backstab your own country (Ottoman empire) and massacre the Kurds and Turkish people of eastern Anatolia by using Russian weapons and by wearing the French&Russian soldier uniforms.

Turks fully controlled your so-called "ancestral lands" since 11th century and you Armenians continued to live and prosper `till 1915. You had your own community, your own religious institutions, your own society with so many rich individuals and also politicians who were participating to the governance of the empire. Even our foreign minister was an ethnic Armenian during WW-1 days and Armenians was fully controlling Ottoman empire`s central bank too.

You lived in your "ancestral lands" in peace for about 900 years and by fully preserving your own identity, customs and language. If your people wouldn't backstab us by allying with our enemies back in those days, you would surely continue to live in there today BUT you didn't and eventually the Armenians of eastern Anatolia has been rightfully expelled out from there.

You Armenians fell into the trap of Moscow politics and became the paws of Kremlin against Turkey and sadly you are still fulfilling that role of being the peons today. Your people`s expulsion from eastern Anatolia was a justified reaction of the Turks who owns these lands for 1000 years. You guys better accept these facts and move on with your lives in your new Russian-made homeland of Caucasus.

[Musso]

And you would still live in your ancestral lands today if you wouldn't ally with Russians and French to backstab your own country (Ottoman empire) and massacre the Kurds and Turkish people of eastern Anatolia by using Russian weapons and by wearing the French&Russian soldier uniforms.

Turks fully controlled your so-called "ancestral lands" since 11th century and you Armenians continued to live and prosper `till 1915. You had your own community, your own religious institutions, your own society with so many rich individuals and also politicians who were participating to the governance of the empire. Even our foreign minister was an ethnic Armenian during WW-1 days and Armenians was fully controlling Ottoman empire`s central bank too.

You lived in your "ancestral lands" in peace for about 900 years and by fully preserving your own identity, customs and language. If your people wouldn't backstab us by allying with our enemies back in those days, you would surely continue to live in there today BUT you didn't and eventually the Armenians of eastern Anatolia has been rightfully expelled out from there.

You Armenians fell into the trap of Moscow politics and became the paws of Kremlin against Turkey and sadly you are still fulfilling that role of being the peons today. Your people`s expulsion from eastern Anatolia was a justified reaction of the Turks who owns these lands for 1000 years. You guys better accept these facts and move on with your lives in your new Russian-made homeland of Caucasus.

Ah yes, and now you delve into Turkish wet dreams about the events in the early 1900s. Tell me, if Armenians did all these things, why isn't there one armenian left in Western Armenia? There have been numerous invasions/wars in that area throughout time, and we have still survived all of them, but after the early 1900s in a few years, they just all, (magically?), disappeared?

Are you also telling me that a whole nation was cleanly deported from their ancestral lands? And if so, were Armenian women, elderly, and children, so dangerous that it justified using Turkish military resources during a crucial time of WW1 to deport every single one of them? Seems kind of inefficient and illogical to me.

Armenians actually supported the Young Turk revolution, because we thought there would be so positive change, following the massacres that had been already taking place in the late 1800s under Hamid.

[Hoca]

If we converted all Armenians by force, they wouldn't have whined that much today.

[Onur]

There have been numerous invasions/wars in that area throughout time, and we have still survived all of them, but after the early 1900s in a few years, they just all, (magically?), disappeared?
I told you what happened back in 1915. All the Armenians of eastern Anatolia has been deported, forcefully relocated to the other parts of the Ottoman empire, like today`s Syria, Iraq and Caucasus.


Are you also telling me that a whole nation was cleanly deported from their ancestral lands?
No, i didn't say such thing. You claimed that you took over Karabakh without any Azerbaijani casualties and even asked me to provide proofs for the dead Azerbaijanis but i am not an arrogant prick like you to claim similar thing for the events of 1915.

About 900.000 Armenians has been relocated and ofc some of them has been killed by local Kurdish gangs and some of them died by starving or because of contagious diseases. But it was during the WW-1. For example, around 350.000 Turkish civilians died in eastern Anatolia back then, because of the actions of Armenian gangs, hunger and diseases. The Turkish people in some of the cities like Erzurum and Van has been ethnically cleansed and the cities has been razed to the ground by the Armenian squads of Russian army. Should we file a genocide claim for this too?

[Musso]

I told you what happened back in 1915. All the Armenians of eastern Anatolia has been deported, forcefully relocated to the other parts of the Ottoman empire, like today`s Syria, Iraq and Caucasus.

No, i didn't say such thing. You claimed that you took over Karabakh without any Azerbaijani casualties and even asked me to provide proofs for the dead Azerbaijanis but i am not an arrogant prick like you to claim similar thing for the events of 1915.

About 900.000 Armenians has been relocated and ofc some of them has been killed by local Kurdish gangs and some of them died by starving or because of contagious diseases. But it was during the WW-1. For example, around 350.000 Turkish civilians died in eastern Anatolia back then, because of the actions of Armenian gangs, hunger and diseases. The Turkish people in some of the cities like Erzurum and Van has been ethnically cleansed and the cities has been razed to the ground by the Armenian squads of Russian army. Should we file a genocide claim for this too?

But you still didn't answer my question. What threat did women, children, and elderly pose that justified to march them through the deserts with no food or water? Did the Turkish army have nothing better to do but deport/massacre these innocent civilians? If they had dis-armed/arrested certain male groups, but left the families alone, it would be a whole different story. But that was not what happened. But a wide-scale genocidal cleansing of all Armenians from their ancestral lands. Let's use some logic here.

Let's cut to the chase. The issue here is if the label 'genocide' is applicable to what happened to the Armenians, because even Turks accept atrocities that occurred against Armenians, it's just they deny it amounted to genocide. So the debate here is a legal one, because 'genocide' is a legal term. In fact, when Turkey-Armenia were negotiating normalizing relations, they referred to a Transnational Justice Council to conclude if what happened was actually genocide. The result:


This memorandum was drafted by independent legal counsel based on a request made to the International Center for Transitional Justice ("ICTJ"), on the basis of the Memorandum of Understanding ("MoU") entered into by The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission ("TARC") on July 12, 2002 and presentations by members of TARC on September 10, 2002.


... Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians, politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe them.

In addition there is affirmation from International Genocide scholars that specialize in the legality of Genocide.

There's also a very interesting assessment made by an English Judge that is Secretary General of the UN justice council specialising in this issues. He wrote a very interesting assessment that I recommend you read. Some excerpts:


In short, I consider that the evidence is compelling that the Ottoman State is responsible, on the legal principles set out at paragraph 27 above, for what would now be described
as genocide. Those running that state in 1915 must have known what was apparent to unbiased foreign observers, and their racist intention may be inferred not just from their reported statements but from their knowledge of racial and religious pogroms in 1894 - 6 and 1909; their deliberate fanning of racial superiority theories in the Turkification pro- gramme; the deportation orders and their foresight of the consequences; their failure to protect the deportees or to punish their attackers, some of whom were state agents. They instigated, or at very least acquiesced in, the killing of a significant part of the Armenian race – probably about half of those who were alive in Eastern Turkey at the beginning of
1915. Put another way – perhaps the way in which a fair minded and informed FCO should have advised ministers to answer the question, if these same events occurred today, in a country with a history similar to Turkey’s in 1915, there can be no doubt that prosecutions for genocide would be warranted and indeed required by the Genocide Convention.



“ In 1915 the Turkish government, then in league with Germany, faced an allied attack in the Dardanelles and a prospective incursion by Russian forces on its eastern front. These circumstances do not, however, justify its orders to deport some 2 million Armenians from Eastern Turkey and its infliction upon them of conditions which were calculated to, and did in fact, bring about the destruction of a significant part of that group. HMG condemned this action at the time as “a crime against humanity” and promised that its perpetrators would be punished. But it was not until 1948 that international law recognised the crime of genocide. HMG has welcomed the recent establishment of diplomatic relations between Armenia and Turkey and the protocol under which they have agreed to examine objectively these events, and hopes that the Turkish government will abolish section 301 of its Penal Code which would otherwise impede such examination. HMG makes clear that should the same events occur today, in any country with a similar history to that of Turkey in 1915, there can be no doubt that the Genocide Convention would be engaged and would require prosecutions for that crime as well as for crimes against humanity.”


If the Turks were correct in their assessment that Genocide didn't happen, then there wouldn't be such a wide consensus in the legal sphere regarding the fact of Genocide. There would, at least, be more debate among Genocide scholars and legal councils.

[Albion]

What do you think of Armenian reluctance to accept international consensus that Nagorno-Karabakh is Azerbaijani land?

Nobody cares about soviet boundaries that cut through ethnic groups. It is ethnically Armenian so Azerbaijan can cry about it all they want but the Armenians will not leave without a fight.

[Musso]

Nobody cares about soviet boundaries that cut through ethnic groups. It is ethnically Armenian so Azerbaijan can cry about it all they want but the Armenians will not leave without a fight.

Stalin made those borders to divide and conquer the region. Similar to people crying and saying that Hitler's desired border of some country should be kept. Both murders and madmen.

[Loki]

Nobody cares about soviet boundaries that cut through ethnic groups. It is ethnically Armenian so Azerbaijan can cry about it all they want but the Armenians will not leave without a fight.

It's not Soviet boundaries, Azerbaijan is a sovereign state - and that region is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. I foresee more conflict in the future in that area, that's for sure. The Azeris are beefing up their military. Things are tense. Armenia is illegally occupying the region and surrounds. I don't think the Azeris are going to tolerate it forever.

[Hayalet]

But you still didn't answer my question. What threat did women, children, and elderly pose that justified to march them through the deserts with no food or water? Did the Turkish army have nothing better to do but deport/massacre these innocent civilians? If they had dis-armed/arrested certain male groups, but left the families alone, it would be a whole different story. But that was not what happened. But a wide-scale genocidal cleansing of all Armenians from their ancestral lands. Let's use some logic here.
A peaceful village can probably supply a battalion. Something similar happened in the 1990s, the Turkish government depopulated some 3,000 villages in the east. Of course, no one is going to call that ethnic cleansing as Kurds living in those places were often settled in the west, which is the last thing ordinary Turks want. The chief difference with what happened in 1915 was logistical conditions.

[Musso]

It's not Soviet boundaries, Azerbaijan is a sovereign state - and that region is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. I foresee more conflict in the future in that area, that's for sure. The Azeris are beefing up their military. Things are tense. Armenia is illegally occupying the region and surrounds. I don't think the Azeris are going to tolerate it forever.

Never has that region been part of the modern day Azerbaijan, because legal cessation of Karabakh occurred within the framework of the Soviet Union. Azerbaijan applied to the UN with borders encompassing Karabakh, even though that region was not under their control and that they had declared themselves a successor state to the first republic of Azerbaijan which did not legally hold that region. The international community says that the Karabakh issue should be solved within OSCE Minsk format. They are not saying, give back Karabakh and so forth.


The Azerbaijani Republic, adopting the declaration on restoration of its national independence, proclaimed itself the successor of the Azerbaijani Republic of 1918-1920. In 1918-1920 Nagorno Karabakh did not make part of the Azerbaijani Republic, which was confirmed by the League of Nations. Moreover, the official Baku declared also the illegality of the establishment of the Soviet rule, under which Nagorno Karabakh was transferred to Azerbaijan as well as rejected the Soviet legal and political heritage. Thus, Azerbaijan, in fact, recognized illegal the 70-year forced retention of Nagorno Karabakh within its administrative control.

[Musso]

A peaceful village can probably supply a battalion. Something similar happened in the 1990s, the Turkish government depopulated some 3,000 villages in the east. Of course, no one is going to call that ethnic cleansing as Kurds living in those places were often settled in the west, which is the last thing ordinary Turks want. The chief difference with what happened in 1915 was logistical conditions.

If the capable men are disarmed and detained, how will that happen? Your logic doesn't make sense and doesn't justify the fact of brutally cleansing a whole nation from its ancestral lands, including women, children, and elderly. Legal scholars have looked at these actions by the Turkish authorities and have overwhelmingly labelled it as a genocidal cleansing.

[Hoca]

delete

[Albion]

It's not Soviet boundaries, Azerbaijan is a sovereign state - and that region is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. I foresee more conflict in the future in that area, that's for sure. The Azeris are beefing up their military. Things are tense. Armenia is illegally occupying the region and surrounds. I don't think the Azeris are going to tolerate it forever.

Yes, borders drawn by the Soviet Union of which it formed a part of. Azeris have nothing to tolerate, it's not rightfully their land, they just received control of it.

[Loki]

Azeris have nothing to tolerate, it's not rightfully their land, they just received control of it.

This is not true.

[Loki]

Never has that region been part of the modern day Azerbaijan, because legal cessation of Karabakh occurred within the framework of the Soviet Union. Azerbaijan applied to the UN with borders encompassing Karabakh, even though that region was not under their control and that they had declared themselves a successor state to the first republic of Azerbaijan which did not legally hold that region. The international community says that the Karabakh issue should be solved within OSCE Minsk format. They are not saying, give back Karabakh and so forth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh

Most of the region is governed by the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, a de facto independent but unrecognized state established on the basis of the former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast within the Azerbaijan SSR of the Soviet Union. The territory is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan

The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, which emerged in Nagorno-Karabakh, continues to be not diplomatically recognized by any nation and the region is still considered a de jure part of Azerbaijan, despite being de facto independent since the end of the war.

Map of Azerbaijan:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Azerbaijan_economic_regions.png/400px-Azerbaijan_economic_regions.png

[Albion]

This is not true.

It is.


The Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (Russian: Нагорно-Карабахская автономная область, НКАО; Azerbaijani: Дағлыг Гарабағ Мухтар Вилајәти, ДГМВ; Armenian: Լեռնային Ղարաբաղի Ինքնավար Մարզ, ԼՂԻՄ) was an autonomous oblast within the borders of the Azerbaijan SSR, mostly inhabited by ethnic Armenians. According to Robert Service, in 1921 Joseph Stalin, then acting Commissar of Nationalities for the Soviet Union, included Nakhchivan and Karabakh under Azerbaijani control to try and placate Turkey to join the Soviet Union. Had Turkey not been an issue, Stalin would likely have left Karabakh under Armenian control. As a result, the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was established with the Azerbaijan SSR on July 7, 1923. According to Karl R. DeRouen it was created as an enclave so that a narrow strip of land would separate it from Armenia proper. According to Audrey L. Altstadt the oblast's borders were drawn to include Armenian villages and to exclude as much as possible Azerbaijani villages. The resulting district ensured an Armenian majority.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Nagorno_Karabakh_Ethnic_Map_1989.png

[Loki]

^^ Have you not heard what happened prior to that period?

[Albion]

^^ Have you not heard what happened prior to that period?

What are you referring to? The collapse of the Russian Empire and their short lived independence?

[Hayalet]

If the capable men are disarmed and detained, how will that happen?
There was an imminent threat of invasion; the Russian army was at the gates, along with tens of thousands of Armenian volunteers.

[Musso]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh

Most of the region is governed by the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, a de facto independent but unrecognized state established on the basis of the former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast within the Azerbaijan SSR of the Soviet Union. The territory is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan

The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, which emerged in Nagorno-Karabakh, continues to be not diplomatically recognized by any nation and the region is still considered a de jure part of Azerbaijan, despite being de facto independent since the end of the war.

Map of Azerbaijan:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Azerbaijan_economic_regions.png/400px-Azerbaijan_economic_regions.png

You didn't address my points. You didn't address the fact that Azerbaijan's declaration of independence in the 90s was based on the first republic's borders which didn't contain Karabakh. You also don't mention that when Azerbaijan went to be recognized as independent state by UN, etc. Karabakh was not under their control and Karabakh had implemented cessation based on legal Soviet Law and adhering to UN principles.


There was an imminent threat of invasion; the Russian army was at the gates, along with tens of thousands of Armenian volunteers.

So if there's an imminent threat of invasion, you tell your army to cleanse all the Armenian women, children, and elderly out of Eastern Anatolia into the Syrian Desert? And funnel a lot of military sources in doing this? The logic just doesn't follow.

[Hoca]

Musso, we all know how Armenians acted in Karabakh, so don't pretend we don't know how Armenians are. The deportation of Armenians was thanks to your leadership who terrorized muslims. If you didn't conduct massacres on Muslims, you would be still living there. Turkey did this as last option, if we wanted to kill you we could have done that much earlier. The truth is that Armenians started massacres to ethnic cleanse the area but you failed.

In Armenia there is not one Muslim or Mosque, while in Turkey there are still Christians and Churches? Who ethnic cleansed who?

[gregorius]

Musso, we all know how Armenians acted in Karabakh, so don't pretend we don't know how Armenians are. The deportation of Armenians was thanks to your leadership who terrorized muslims. If you didn't conduct massacres on Muslims, you would be still living there. Turkey did this as last option, if we wanted to kill you we could have done that much earlier. The truth is that Armenians started massacres to ethnic cleanse the area but you failed.

In Armenia there is not one Muslim or Mosque, while in Turkey there are still Christians and Churches? Who ethnic cleansed who?

There are there are azeris from Iran who come quite often,

[Onur]

I foresee more conflict in the future in that area, that's for sure. The Azeris are beefing up their military. Things are tense. Armenia is illegally occupying the region and surrounds. I don't think the Azeris are going to tolerate it forever.
Yes, they wont tolerate anymore. A war between Azerbaijan and Armenia is inevitable and it will probably happen in few years of time. If Russia gets involved into the future conflict, then Turkey will involve too and probably the whole world afterwards.



But you still didn't answer my question. What threat did women, children, and elderly pose that justified to march them through the deserts with no food or water? Did the Turkish army have nothing better to do but deport/massacre these innocent civilians? If they had dis-armed/arrested certain male groups, but left the families alone, it would be a whole different story. But that was not what happened. But a wide-scale genocidal cleansing of all Armenians from their ancestral lands.
You either don't know or ignore what happened back then.

Armenians of eastern Anatolia has been organized to form gangs and legionnaire squads by the Russians and French and they started massive uprising in there. They killed 10.000s of Turkish+Kurdish civilians and indirectly caused the death of 325.000 more civilians due to hunger and diseases. They razed the cities of Van and Erzurum to the ground and proclaimed the so-called Armenian kingdom in there with the support of Russian empire.

But the most important issue here was their timing. Lets see what was going on in April 1915 and where was the whole Turkish army while Armenians was backstabbing us;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign

As you can see, Armenians started their biggest uprising when 750.000 of our soldiers in western Anatolia, and while we lost 251,000 of our young soldiers in Gallipoli. So, while we lost 251.000 soldiers in the west, Armenians massacred 10.000s in the east and proclaimed their Armenian kingdom. And young Turk government finally decided to expel out the Armenians after a month.

Armenian deportation was a necessity because there was no way for us to live together anymore after all that horrible events. We lived together for 900 years and the actions of Armenians in WW-1 hit the final nail in the coffin. Turkey did what she had to do and i am sure if similar thing happens in anywhere in the world, they decide to do the same thing.

Lets assume another Hitler came out and attacks Russia. I know there are so many Armenians in Russia. What would happen if these Armenians would ally with the enemies of Russia and attack Russian cities, destroy two of those and kill 10.000s of Russians. Answer me, what would be the Moscow`s response then?


If the Turks were correct in their assessment that Genocide didn't happen, then there wouldn't be such a wide consensus in the legal sphere regarding the fact of Genocide. There would, at least, be more debate among Genocide scholars and legal councils.
We all know what happens if a scholar starts to question the so-called "Armenian genocide". Your ASALA terrorists threatens them and their families and sets up bombs in their houses.

[Hoca]

Yes, they wont tolerate anymore. A war between Azerbaijan and Armenia is inevitable and it will probably happen in few years of time. If Russia gets involved into the future conflict, then Turkey will involve too and probably the whole world afterwards.

No it won't start world war. Azerbaijan and Turkey are negotiating with Russia. Solving Karabakh issue, Russia is key element as experts say. When Russia steps aside, the issue will be solved in couple of weeks. So the biggest battle is not on the battlefield but in politics.

Karabakh itself is not worth anything. No oil, or other natural resources. Armenia occupies it out of greed and Azerbaijan wants it back out of revenge for the massacres committed on its people. As Turkish influence grows in Caucausus, this issue will solve itself. It is a waiting game.

[Armenian Bishop]

I updated the link to the video in the original post. Worth watching ...


http://iwpr.net/report-news/axe-murderer-pardon-hardens-azeri-armenian-attitudes

It's of interest that the video, in the Opening Post, was addressed to Hungary, perhaps with gratitude for the release of Safarov, an Azeri officer who used an ax to murder Margaryan, a sleeping Armenian military officer, during a NATO training mission in Hungary. He received a congratulatory homecoming from the president of Azerbaijan, in Baku, with cheering crowds whom surrounded the axe murderer with affection. Safarov was rewarded for axing a man to death, in his sleep, with a promotion, compensatory pay for his prison time, and a free apartment residence in Baku.

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2013/10/16/sassounian-justice-dept-records-reveal-azerbaijan-pays-millions-to-us-firms/

The Opening Post video is thick baloney, composed of Azeri spin doctor propaganda. The video would excuse Azerbaijan's military aggression against Armenia, and Iran, as well as Karabakh (aka Artzakh), because it claims that both Northern Iran, and present day Armenia, are lands stolen from Azerbaijan. In fact, Armenians are arguably among the most indigenous people of a large area of Eastern Turkey, Northern Iran, and the South Caucasus, in The Armenian Highlands. Tragically, Armenians and their civilization, in Western Armenia (a large area of present day Eastern Turkey) was obliterated, and most of the civilian population there was annihilated during the Armenian Genocide (1915 - 1923).

[roro4721]

No, they had lost all their territory to the Byzantines, which Turks conquered and have kept ever since.

yeah lol Ararat is Turkish, PLEASEEEEE.

Update: Danishmend (a Turk) has disliked my post. I guess Ararat is Turkish after all.

[roro4721]

Also, the first Republic of Armenia at one point controlled some of Karabkah and Kars. While Van, Mus, and Erzurum were given to them by the Treaty of Sèvres, but never implemented.

[Armenian Bishop]

LOL no I wasn't talking about you.

Thing is ... Armenians don't want to move on. They will never stop going on about 1918-ish time. There was even another World War after that. Many more people were killed, expelled, etc. Yet modern German, Polish and Russian people get on just fine. Even the vast majority of Jews don't blame modern Germans for the holocaust.

As for Armenians ... I'm sorry but I've noticed they carry this deep bitterness and hatred, and would never be friendly with a Turk, not even on an individual basis. That is what causes me to emphasize the imbalance in attitude.

That statement is false and seems malicious. "As for Armenians..." As for myself, I find that most Turks are pleasant, and easy to befriend. My issues with them arise, because to many of them either stonewall with genocide denial behavior, or show blind ignorance about some historical and political matters, which relate to Turks and Christians, as well as Turks and Christian Armenians. I've enjoyed friendship with quite a number of Turkic folks. These are some Turks whom I came to know rather well, as friends:

(1) My former Real Estate Broker, Orhan Tolu, is Turkish.

(2) My former employer, Emma Malazgirt, who provided a human resources agency for teachers.

(3) My neighbor (across the street), Najihm Agi, and his family. A Tatar Turk.

(4) My chess friend, Barry Atak, one of my more cherished chess friends.

(5) A nameless old Turkish gentleman, for friendly coffee house conversation.

(*) And, still others!



Nice words but not true , On individual basis I've got turkish friends.
The Jewish genocide is acknowledged while Armenian is not.

It's not only Gregorious, and myself, whom have Turkish friends, but other Armenians, as well. And, he's right, The Jewish Holocaust has been officially acknowledged by present day Germany, whereas, The Armenian Genocide has been confronted by genocide denialism from Turkish and Azeri special interest groups, as well as from Turkey itself.

It can be good to move on, but genocide denialism by the Turkish State is a continuation of the original crime, and serves to aid and abet the original perpetrators of genocide. It's like saying, "well those serial killers murdered a lot of women and children, in horrible ways, and plundered their homes, but let's just move on, because it was a long time ago, and life is short." In the meantime, grandchildren of the homicidal victims struggle to make a living, because of plundered family estates, while descendants of the murderers enjoy benefits from their ancestor's crime, without consequences.


Well I'm glad to be proven wrong on this point in your case!

Glad to know a good man who can acknowledge his errors.

[Loki]

Azerbaijan is a very old country - ancient civilization. :)

[Anatolian Eagle]

yeah lol Ararat is Turkish, PLEASEEEEE.

Update: Danishmend (a Turk) has disliked my post. I guess Ararat is Turkish after all.

Bravo. You're definitely right.

http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/74/64274-004-8C1919DD.gif

[Musso]

Ararat is in Turkey geographically, but the Mountain means much more to Armenians than to Turks or Kurds. The ethnogenesis of Armenians occurred in the areas around Ararat, and the areas near Ararat can be said to be the heart of our homeland. Mount Ararat is a very important symbol in Armenian culture and society without a doubt.

[roro4721]

Bravo. You're definitely right.

http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/74/64274-004-8C1919DD.gif

Yeah, because I didn't already know the symbol of my country is in Turkey. Thanks for your help Anatolian Eagle. Do you think I've never googled Ararat before? Did you fast or something today? You seem grumpy.
Also the man who invented the Armenian alphabet was born in Mus, but yeah sure, Eastern Anatolia is definitely Turkish.

[StonyArabia]

Ararat where Noah believed to have stepped on and repopulated the world with his family.

[roro4721]

Ararat where Noah believed to have stepped on and repopulated the world with his family.

It has so much significance to Armenian culture, if you read a book about Armenia, if you've met an Armenian, if you've even seen a picture of Armenia you'll notice Ararat. It has zero relevance in Turkish culture. It's literally where the Armenian race was born, but then Turks convince themselves they never stole any land from Armenia? PLEASEEE. They bring up Karbakh an event that took place almost a 100 whole years after the Genocide, and claim that Armenians are actually the land occupiers? Karabakh was majority Armenian, I assume this is something both sides agree on. Karabakh's history (unlike Ararat's) is complicated, around 500 plus Armenians were killed in the Shusha Massacre and the Armenian half of the city was ruined, this took place in 1920, way before the Karabakh war. During the 90s war there was the Khojaly Massacre which killed 202 according to the Human Rights Watch, the Baku and Sumgait pogroms against Armenians. The Armenian-Azeri Massacres from both sides which took place back in the early 1900s. So many more I can't name here.

I personally don't mind Azerbaijan at all, I know their propaganda is rampant so much so that a Turkish athlete with a yan at the end of his last name wasn't even allowed into Azerbaijan even though he WASN'T an Armenian. What I mind is Turkey encouraging anti-Armenian propaganda in Azerbaijan.

Also the Azeri and probably the Turkish one too (who knows) president claims that Yerevan is Azerbaijani and that the "Armenians were guests there." According to the Azerbaijani President Yerevan was gifted to Armenians by the Persians.

[gültekin]

I do not know and there is no ararat mararat in Turkey,
But my flag floats lovely over Mount Ağrı Peak forever
http://blog.anilsarkoglu.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMG_2361.jpg

[gültekin]

whats up with this turkic huangarian philia?? Werent huangarians a turkish colony back in the day? One speaks uralic the other turkic, there is no connection.


.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BjhAs9k_YGg/UJML5rAWqfI/AAAAAAAAAQQ/A1QqpQGJHVo/s1600/emo-okuz_11386_m.jpg

fórumban sok horkolás ökör van (Hun)
forumda çok horlayan öküz var (Tr)

There are many snoring ox in the forum (En)

[Musso]

I do not know and there is no ararat mararat in Turkey,
But my flag floats lovely over Mount Ağrı Peak forever
http://blog.anilsarkoglu.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMG_2361.jpg

Lol, you know that anybody who hikes to the top of Mount Ararat puts their flag on the top? Armenians, Greeks, Russians, and so forth.

Armenians and Greeks on top of Ararat:

http://www.ararat5137.org/Gallery/images/DSC00979.JPG

http://www.ararat5137.org/Gallery/images/DSC00977.JPG

http://www.ararat5137.org/Gallery/images/DSC00985.JPG

[gültekin]

Lol, you know that anybody who hikes to the top of Mount Ararat puts their flag on the top? Armenians, Greeks, Russians, and so forth.

Armenians and Greeks on top of Ararat:

http://www.ararat5137.org/Gallery/images/DSC00979.JPG

http://www.ararat5137.org/Gallery/images/DSC00977.JPG

http://www.ararat5137.org/Gallery/images/DSC00985.JPG
nice to see this "tourists" :cool: on Mount Ağrı

[Musso]

nice to see this "tourists" :cool: on Mount Ağrı

I'd say a Turk that has to come from Istanbul to Mount Ararat is more of a tourist than an Armenian who lives in Yerevan, sees Mount Ararat every day, and has lived much closer to the Mountain than that Turk.

[StonyArabia]

As long the Arab world does not get involved, it's a problem don't matter to us.

[Armenian Bishop]

Armenians defeated Azerbaijan in The Karabakh War (1988 - 1994), with a string of decisive military victories. With the fall of Khojaly, Shusha and Lachin, in 1992, the way was open for additional Armenian victories. Armenians put Azeri-Turkish military units to flight in an unending string of military victories, and captured Kelbajar, Agdam, Jebrael and Fizuli, in 1993. By 1994, the last year of the war, Azeri-Turkish military units were no better than cannon fodder, completely outclassed by Armenian military units, and essentially charging into a meat grinder at the Armenian battlefronts. Azerbaijan sued for peace, and a ceasefire was drawn up, in 1994.

For 2 decades, since 1994, Azerbaijan has repeatedly violated the ceasefire, even to the point of trying to infiltrate Armenian Lines, with sabotage units. Karabakh Armenians have remained disciplined and undaunted by all such attempts to find weaknesses in their defenses. Third Parties, like the USA, have failed to condemn Azerbaijan for ceasefire violations; consequently, Azerbaijan has been embolden to perpetrate multiple ceasefire violations, on an astronomical level. In addition, Ilham Aliyev, the president of Azerbaijan has frequently made bellicose military threats against Armenia, and Karabakh, and he's given authorization to fund the massive escalation of his military forces. The military budget of Azerbaijan is larger than the entire budget of Armenia.

Since the signing of the ceasefire agreement in 1994, the military tensions between the Armenians and Azeri-Turks have been escalated into the status of a Cold War. Quotations are from the Nagorno-Karabakh May 5th, 2014, foreign office statement, on 20th anniversary of ceasefire agreement:

http://www.tert.am/en/news/2014/05/12/cease-fire/

* "Since the beginning of 2014 more than seven thousand cases of ceasefire violations from Azerbaijani side have been registered. 20 years after the signing of the agreement that ended the military phase of the conflict, military and civilian losses still occur."

* "We are profoundly convinced that such actions are not caused by military necessity and are in fact deliberate acts of murder and unjustified terror."

* "Constant provocations on the Line of Contact and the ongoing threats of a new war by Azerbaijan only complicate the settlement process and distance the prospect of a final settlement of the Azerbaijani-Karabakh conflict."