Wo had a mightier empire: Bulgarians or Serbs?

[ioan assen]

All are welcomed to vote.
I say Bulgarians, because:
1) as a territory Bulgarian empire was bigger than Dushan serbian empire: think Krum, Simeon, Samuel, Ioan Assen II etc.
2) culturally the Bulgarian schools influenced Serbia, Russia, Romania while the same cant be said about Serbian culture.

[poiuytrewq0987]

We did, obviously. It's not even comparable.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c152/Liudovik/2-29.jpg

http://anamnesis.info/resources/karta_ekzarhiq_arhivi.jpg

vs

http://static.newworldencyclopedia.org/thumb/d/dd/Dusanova_Srbija200.jpg/180px-Dusanova_Srbija200.jpg

http://content.espressoeducation.com/espresso/modules/www/geography/maps_flags/maps/new2/former_yugoslavia_2.jpg

[Wulfhere]

Who had the mightier empire: Luxembourg or Liechtenstein?

[Hurrem sultana]

non

[Onur]

I think the Serbian state cannot be considered as an empire at all.

The medieval Serbian state was just a vassal country of Byzantines and after that, it was only independent for few decades `till they have been subjugated again by the Ottoman empire.



I say Bulgarians, because:
1) as a territory Bulgarian empire was bigger than Dushan serbian empire: think Krum, Simeon, Samuel, Ioan Assen II etc.
Well, the ones who created and ruled the empire was not Bulgarians but they were Bulgars and later Cumans. They had different culture and they were speaking different language than the present day Bulgars. Their names such as Ioan, Samuel, Simeon was their baptism names but in fact, their original names was mostly different.

It`s questionable whether today`s Bulgaria truly represents the heritage of Bulgar and Cuman monarchies or not.

[American_Hispanist]

neither.

[ioan assen]

I think the Serbian state cannot be considered as an empire at all.
It was for some time. It ruled shortly over Bulgarian populated Macedonia and Greek populated parts.


The medieval Serbian state was just a vassal country of Byzantines and after that, it was only independent for few decades `till they have been subjugated again by the Ottoman empire.
:picard2:omg. Sorry but Turks are delusional - you probably think you only had an empire, eventhough its the most despised one?



Well, the ones who created and ruled the empire was not Bulgarians but they were Bulgars and later Cumans.
Or you try your best to link to yourself the empire of those who had it. neither Bulgars nor Cumans have alot to do with presentday Turks. Even if Bulgars spoke Turkic, claiming you are linked with them would equal Bulgarians to claim Vistula Veneti as Bulgarians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti :picard2:

They had different culture and they were speaking different language than the present day Bulgars.
That could be the truth for the early Bulgars (though there are countless teories on their origin, including slavic - turkic one is just one of the theories), but intermerrages with slavs are not rare - on the contrary: as early as 9th century we can see the Bulgarian ethnogenesis is on fast pace, judging by the name of Omurtag son: Zvinica http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvinitsa.


Their names such as Ioan, Samuel, Simeon was their baptism names but in fact, their original names was mostly different.
Ioan Assen II was anything other than Bulgarian???????????:picard2::picard2:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_II_of_Bulgaria
uou uou
Samuel wasnt Bulgarian???????????????? Who "baptized him" if he was born christian? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_of_Bulgaria
Simeon was born christian. Who baptize him???????????:picard2: He was to become a high rank church clerik, he studied in Constantinopole :eek:


It`s questionable whether today`s Bulgaria truly represents the heritage of Bulgar and Cuman monarchies or not.
First and second and third states/empires were called Bulgaria. Cumania was situated in Romania.:picard2: The only people questioning this is the gelous Turks.

[Vojnik]

Bulgarians easily. It's not even comparable.

[Archduke]

RKQFoINKCBg

[Vulcho]

Bulgaria obviously. But what's the point of opening a thread about it? It's petty, and only shows we have fallen more, as today our two countries are more or less equal.

[east]

I think the Serbian state cannot be considered as.....monarchies or not.

I am not angry to you anymore, Onur. Last weeks your writings about Bulgaria make me fun. :D

[Crn Volk]

I voted Serbs just to piss off Thraex :thumb001:

[kvarc]

well if we take works of the Oxford byzantologist Serbia during the Dusan rule, was the most powerful state in Europe....although I think he was exegerating, Serbia ceartanly left much more evidences of material culture than Bulgaria, MAcedonia is filled with Serbian monument, and almost non Bulgarian, only few adapted Greek churches, Dusan`s law and Saint Save`s Nomokanon became the basses for church and civic law across the east Europe inculding the Bulgaria, Serb build a first Clock in Moscow, Serbian bulders build most of monastaries in Romanian, north Greek is filed with Serbian Architecture, even the oldest remaining building in the most famous Bulgarian monastry, Rila, was bulild by a Serb....most of the time Bulgarian empire was union of the tribes, supervised by a Turkic waring elite, while Dusan`s state was a much more modern state governed by law and order, so it`s not fer to compared them, one is a product of early middle ages, and the other of high middle ages

[CrystalMaiden]

Bulgaria hands down.

[Archduke]

the most famous Bulgarian monastry, Rila, was bulild by a Serb....

After i saw this, your post became useless. :bored:

[bimo]

even the oldest remaining building in the most famous Bulgarian monastry, Rila, was bulild by a Serb

:loco:

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rila_Monastery
It is traditionally thought that the monastery was founded by the hermit St. Ivan of Rila, whose name it bears, during the rule of Tsar Peter I (927-968). The hermit actually lived in a cave without any material possessions not far from the monastery's location, while the complex was built by his students, who came to the mountains to receive their education.

[safinator]

Fuck i voted the wrong option.

[ioan assen]

well if we take works of the Oxford byzantologist Serbia during the Dusan rule, was the most powerful state in Europe....although I think he was exegerating, Serbia ceartanly left much more evidences of material culture than Bulgaria, MAcedonia is filled with Serbian monument, and almost non Bulgarian, only few adapted Greek churches, Dusan`s law and Saint Save`s Nomokanon became the basses for church and civic law across the east Europe inculding the Bulgaria, Serb build a first Clock in Moscow, Serbian bulders build most of monastaries in Romanian, north Greek is filed with Serbian Architecture, even the oldest remaining building in the most famous Bulgarian monastry, Rila, was bulild by a Serb....most of the time Bulgarian empire was union of the tribes, supervised by a Turkic waring elite, while Dusan`s state was a much more modern state governed by law and order, so it`s not fer to compared them, one is a product of early middle ages, and the other of high middle ages
Too bad Bulgarian empire wasnt "product of early middle ages".
:picard1: Have you heard about Ioan Assen II who happened to live in 13th century :bored:Only this blows your theory in pieces. By the way his empire was mightier than Dushans and it was taken through dimplomacy, not war. :rolleyes:
The greatest treasures of Macedonia: Ohrids religious buildings were build by Boris. The so called "serbian monasteries" were renovations of the Bulgarian older ones. As for the law: at the time Krum was issuing the first recorded Bulgarian laws, there was no records on the Serboi or their state :bored:, cause its either didnt exist or no one bothered to record its presence. I wont add you write in alphabeth devised by Bulgarian and the Serbian literature in the beginning was a copy of the Bulgarian one.:picard1:

[Pontios]

Serbs of course. They are powerful people overall in history.

[ioan assen]

Serbs of course. They are powerful people overall in history.:confused: so Serboi were the main Greek rival for Balkan dominance in middle ages? They also help you against the Arabs :picard2: I thought so:bored:

[morski]

Serbian empire - 1346–1371
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Servia1350AD.png

First Bulgarian Empire - 681–1018

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Culture_of_the_First_Bulgarian_Empire.png

Second Bulgarian Empire - 1185–1422

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Campaigns_of_Ivan_Assen_II.png

/thread

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Bulgarian Empire during her zenith was able to mobilize more than 80,000 infantry and heavy cavalry. What was the Serbian Empire capable of mobilizing? Their greatest mobilization was a mere 20,000 against the invading Ottomans. We killed more than 20,000 Arabs during their siege of Constantinople in 717. I think it's fair to say the Serbian Empire was never mighty nor was the part-Bulgar Dusan mighty if they were capable of only mobilizing 20,000 troops at their zenith. The Holy Roman Empire, for comparison, mobilized more than 250,000 troops to support the Crusades. Tsar Dushan the part-Bulgarian was only at an advantage when the Bulgarian Empire weakened they became capable of taking ethnic Bulgarian territories

[RussiaPrussia]

serbia because yugoslavia was mightier than any bulgarian country in history.

[poiuytrewq0987]

serbia because yugoslavia was mightier than any bulgarian country in history.

That's pure comic. Bulgaria mobilized more than a million men in WW1. Serbia only had an army of 230,000. In WW2 we mobilized more than 450,000 men whereas Yugoslavia at the same time only had 300,000 capable soldiers with military equipment from the Balkan wars. Our equipment during WW2 was modern and up to date. During the Cold War Yugoslavia arguably had more soldiers but they weren't as well equipped. For example Communist Yugoslavia had only 500 modern battle tanks whereas Bulgaria had 3,000 tanks. If we had went to war with Yugoslavia we would have won purely with troop quality and equipment superiority. Additionally we had a nuclear power plant meaning we could have built nuclear bombs to level Yugoslavia overnight. What did Yugoslavia have? A peashooter in Slovenia built in 1981. :lol:

[Hayalet]

Neither comes to my mind when I think of the word, 'empire', to be honest. They seem pretty much limited to a single realm (the Balkans).

[Hoca]

The Turks obviously.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Neither comes to my mind when I think of the word, 'empire', to be honest. They seem pretty much limited to a single realm (the Balkans).

How ignorant. Our empire literally stretched from the south of Greece to the northern borders of modern-day Russia.

http://www.balkanmedia.bg/images/2012/10/Volzhka-Ba-lgariya11.jpg

http://archive.worldhistoria.com/uploads/20061009_072446_05-Starata_Veli.jpg

http://www.spge-bg.com/_data2/pages/projects/itcomel_uk/images/istoriq/simeon.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Turks obviously.

Is that you sucking on a doner in your avatar?

http://theapricity.com/forum/200x138ximage.php,qu=7047,adateline=1358983403.pag espeed.ic.ChSL7b5zqn.jpg

[Methmatician]

Yugoslavia wasn't an empire. And despite Croatian nationalist belief Yugoslavia was not a Serbian country.

[Hoca]

Is that you sucking on a doner in your avatar?

http://theapricity.com/forum/200x138ximage.php,qu=7047,adateline=1358983403.pag espeed.ic.ChSL7b5zqn.jpg
No, but about your avatar. Is it not time to remove the Tatar girl? I'm asking since you are so anti-Turkic.

[poiuytrewq0987]

No, but about your avatar. Is it not time to remove the Tatar girl? I'm asking since you are so anti-Turkic.

Only in your pan-turko delusions she is a turko. She is half Volga Bulgarian and half Russian. Go away ugly turko.

http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/01/2/2/2/9074533666104884.jpg

[Crn Volk]

Only in your pan-turko delusions she is a turko. She is half Volga Bulgarian and half Russian. Go away ugly turko.

http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/01/2/2/2/9074533666104884.jpg

Volga Bulgaria is known as Tatarstan these days and the people identify as Tatars.

[Hoca]

Only in your pan-turko delusions she is a turko. She is half Volga Bulgarian and half Russian. Go away ugly turko.

http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/01/2/2/2/9074533666104884.jpg

No, she is not half Bulgarian you freak, she is half Tatar. And obviously she is not famous for her Russians looks but exotic Tatar ancestry.


Volga Bulgaria is known as Tatarstan these days and the people identify as Tatars.
Don't waste your time with this Volga ******.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Volga Bulgaria is known as Tatarstan these days and the people identify as Tatars.

My sig and census results say otherwise, fyromian boy. How are your Exarchist grandparents doing by the way?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/VolgaBulgars2002.JPG

[poiuytrewq0987]

No, she is not half Bulgarian you freak, she is half Tatar. And obviously she is not famous for her Russians looks but exotic Tatar ancestry.


Don't waste your time with this Volga ******.

No, you're the one who is a freak with your sick pan-turko obsession.

[Hayalet]

How ignorant. Our empire literally stretched from the south of Greece to the northern borders of modern-day Russia.

http://www.balkanmedia.bg/images/2012/10/Volzhka-Ba-lgariya11.jpg

http://archive.worldhistoria.com/uploads/20061009_072446_05-Starata_Veli.jpg
Those are Bulgar states, not Bulgarian. You are not Bulgars.


Bulgars: Ancient Turkic people originating in the region north and east of the Black Sea. In 650 AD they split into two groups. The western group moved to Bulgaria, where they became assimilated into the Slavic population and adopted Christianity. The other group moved to the Volga region and set up a Bulgar state, eventually converting to Islam.
The history of Bulgarians start when certain South Slavs received their ethnonym from the Turkic Bulgars.

[alb0zfinest]

Bulgarians, no question.

[Hoca]

No, you're the one who is a freak with your sick pan-turko obsession.

Since when is saying Tatars are Turkic people an obsession? It is generally accepted. You are really a Volga dummy, aren't you?

[poiuytrewq0987]

Those are Bulgar states, not Bulgarian. You are not Bulgars.

We are Bulgars, dummy.



The history of Bulgarians start when certain South Slavs received their ethnonym from the Turkic Bulgars.

Bulgars are Bulgars. What language they spoke means absolutely nothing because we are ethnic Bulgars.

Have a nice day.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Since when is saying Tatars are Turkic people an obsession? It is generally accepted. You are really a Volga dummy, aren't you?

No, Volga Tatars/Bulgarians are not Turkics because we are Bulgars. End of story.

[RussiaPrussia]

funny how people accusing volga bulgarians as tatarians but its more proven fact that tatarians are half russians. Real tatarians were asians before they mixed a lot with russians.

[Vulcho]

Pro Bulgarian: Larger territory, longer lasting/more stable, cultural influence on all Orthodox Slavs

Pro Serbian: More recent (so there are more traces left), cultural influence on early Ottoman Bulgaria.

Ultimately, both states days of glory were mostly due to a power vacuum. This is true especially for Dushan's Serbia and Ivan Asen's Bulgaria, but less correct about Simeon's Bulgaria.

ps: I'm not going to vote unless the Serbs reach the number of Bulgarian votes :D

[Hoca]

funny how people accusing volga bulgarians as tatarians but its more proven fact that tatarians are half russians. Real tatarians were asians before they mixed a lot with russians.

Tatars took Russian women as their price. Doesn't make Tatar Russians. Every book will say they are a Turkic tribe.

[Onur]

First Bulgarian Empire - 681–1018

...
It was a Bulgar Turkic empire, not related with today`s slavic Bulgarians


Second Bulgarian Empire - 1185–1422

...
Cuman Turkic and Vlach empire, not related with today`s Bulgaria again.

/thread


Btw, even if you are related with them, it wouldn't matter at all because your present day official doctrine claims that you are Indo-Eu people from Afghan, Pashtun mountains and mixed with local Thracians. You totally deny your connections with the medieval Bulgar/Cuman empires. Ofc some of you claim that medieval Bulgars and Cumans was Aryans from Afghanistan mountains too but this is nothing but laughable.


No, but about your avatar. Is it not time to remove the Tatar girl? I'm asking since you are so anti-Turkic.
Take a loot at his signature too. A Tatar girl on his avatar and a Turkic damga "IYI" in his signature.

He constantly talks about medieval Bulgar and Cuman empires too but yet he says that he hates Turks, go figure :picard2:



funny how people accusing volga bulgarians as tatarians but its more proven fact that tatarians are half russians. Real tatarians were asians before they mixed a lot with russians.
You present day Russians are Tatars as much as they are Russians.

[Vulcho]

Neither comes to my mind when I think of the word, 'empire', to be honest. They seem pretty much limited to a single realm (the Balkans).

The meaning of the term "empire" has shifted through time. In the middle ages it meant a state, whose head is of equal rank to the Roman Emperor. Bulgaria and Serbia both became "empires" after forcing an increasingly weak Byzantium to recognize them as such.

[Crn Volk]

My sig and census results say otherwise, fyromian boy. How are your Exarchist grandparents doing by the way?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/VolgaBulgars2002.JPG

Read here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan

Tatars 53%
Russians 39.7%
Bulgars 0%

Official languages Tatar and Russian.

http://www.bikers-stuffwholesale.com/catalog/PM212FckOffEndOfStory.jpg

[Hoca]

Take a loot at his signature too. A Tatar girl on his avatar and a Turkic damga "IYI" in his signature.


Why did they spray iyi on the banners?




Btw, even if you are related with them, it wouldn't matter at all because your present day official doctrine claims that you are Indo-Eu people from Afghan, Pashtun mountains and mixed with local Thracians. You totally deny your connections with the medieval Bulgar/Cuman empires.


LOL, let them be Pashtun and Afghan if that makes them happier. I wouldn't want Turkic history to be associated with modern-day Bulgaria.

"Volga Bulgaria, or Volga–Kama Bolghar, was a historic Islamic Bulgar state that existed between the seventh and thirteenth centuries around the confluence of the Volga and Kama rivers, in what is now European Russia. The population was mostly Bulgars, who had conquered Finno-Ugrics and Turkic speakers of the region. The population was pagan earlier[clarification needed], but Islam was adopted as the state religion in the early tenth century."

[Scholarios]

both were mighty. the number of times the Bulgarians challenged the Byzantines probably puts them a bit higher up. no offense to Serb friends.

[Vulcho]

It was a Bulgar Turkic empire, not related with today`s slavic Bulgarians
...
Cuman Turkic and Vlach empire, not related with today`s Bulgaria again.


So the Tatars can get away with marrying Slavic women and staying Tatar, but the Bulgars can't? :(

[Onur]

Why did they spray iyi on the banners?
I have no idea what it says in there but their so-called nationalist parties are frequently using these Turkic damgas found on the archeological remains from the medieval Bulgar state.

I have no idea but maybe they are also claiming that these damgas supposedly from Pashtun or Hindu, lol :)



LOL, let them be Pashtun and Afghan if that makes them happier. I wouldn't want Turkic history to be associated with modern-day Bulgaria.
Ofc mate. I already said this here several times. The last thing i would ever desire is these present day Bulgarians to be associated with Turkic history. I would never want that.

What pissing me off is that they are trying to falsify Bulgar and Cuman Turkic history with their Aryan Pashtun claims. Otherwise, i don't care wtf they wanna be, Afghan, Pashtun or Pamir whatever they wish for.

[Crn Volk]

Why did they spray iyi on the banners?



LOL, let them be Pashtun and Afghan if that makes them happier. I wouldn't want Turkic history to be associated with modern-day Bulgaria.

"Volga Bulgaria, or Volga–Kama Bolghar, was a historic Islamic Bulgar state that existed between the seventh and thirteenth centuries around the confluence of the Volga and Kama rivers, in what is now European Russia. The population was mostly Bulgars, who had conquered Finno-Ugrics and Turkic speakers of the region. The population was pagan earlier[clarification needed], but Islam was adopted as the state religion in the early tenth century."

Did someone say Pastuns?

http://uwf.edu/atcdev/afghanistan/people/data/loya_jirga.jpg

[RussiaPrussia]

Tatars took Russian women as their price. Doesn't make Tatar Russians. Every book will say they are a Turkic tribe.


what for BS when Ivan the terrible conquered kazan he killed half of tatarian male population

[Crn Volk]

I have no idea what it says in there but their so-called nationalist parties are frequently using these Turkic damgas found on the archeological remains from the medieval Bulgar state.

I have no idea but maybe they are also claiming that these damgas supposedly from Pashtun or Hindu, lol :)



Ofc mate. I already said this here several times. The last thing i would ever desire is these present day Bulgarians to be associated with Turkic history. I would never want that.

What pissing me off is that they are trying to falsify Bulgar and Cuman Turkic history with their Aryan Pashtun claims.

Bulgars are great falsifiers of history.

[Hoca]

Can Bulgarians explain to me why they spray IYI on banners?


what for BS when Ivan the terrible conquered kazan he killed half of tatarian male population

Do you take pride in that? So what if you killed all the men in a village. We conquered whole Russia and burned down Moscow couple of times.

edit: Pictures bellow me are bullshit. Most tatars don't look like that.

[RussiaPrussia]

You present day Russians are Tatars as much as they are Russians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Tuhaj_Bej.jpg

tatarians before ivan the terrible

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Akhmetov_Rinat_Leonidovich.jpg

tatarians after ivan the terrible

[Hayalet]

So the Tatars can get away with marrying Slavic women and staying Tatar, but the Bulgars can't? :(
Everybody knows mother tongue is one of the primary criteria for ethnic identity in the Old World. Original Bulgars spoke Oghur Turkic, modern Tatars speak North Kypchak Turkic and modern Bulgarians speak South Slavic.

[Crn Volk]

Can Bulgarians explain to me why they spray IYI on banners?


http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110823053756/gleeusers/images/c/c9/Mj-thriller-popcorn-o.gif

[Onur]

Can Bulgarians explain to me why they spray IYI on banners?

Because Turkic damgas and runic writings in all over old Bulgar cities. This is the replica of a Turkic animal calendar found in Bulgaria;

http://img.geocaching.com/track/large/8ed0509a-ab4d-47a2-bc72-e7ac442146dd.jpg


This is what it`s written on the calendar (runic to latin in red), with illustrations;
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/25Bulgars/TurkicCalendar.gif

You can read it easily, it`s quite same as Turkish, tavşan, pars, it, teke (koyun). According to Bulgarians, this language is Pashtun Afghan Aryan language :D

[Hoca]

I guess they are "it"

I did some research. On wikipedia they say they are Slavic. lol.

[Onur]

I guess they are "it"
Yes, it oğlu it!

[Vulcho]

Everybody knows mother tongue is one of the primary criteria for ethnic identity in the Old World. Original Bulgars spoke Oghur Turkic, modern Tatars speak North Kypchak Turkic and modern Bulgarians speak South Slavic.

Well, that's true, but still we are the only ethnic group who can claim the heritage of the Bulgars. It's not like the Slavs rose in rebellion and kicked their rulers out.

[Hoca]

Because Turkic damgas and runic writings in all over old Bulgar cities. This is the replica of a Turkic animal calendar found in Bulgaria;

http://img.geocaching.com/track/large/8ed0509a-ab4d-47a2-bc72-e7ac442146dd.jpg


This is what it`s written on the calendar (runic to latin in red), with illustrations;
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/25Bulgars/TurkicCalendar.gif

You can read it easily, it`s quite same as Turkish, tavşan, pars, it, teke (koyun). According to Bulgarians, this language is Pashtun Afghan Aryan language :DBy the way do you know Chinese have similar calendar? The chinese say they took this calendar from the Turks.

[Hoca]

Well, that's true, but still we are the only ethnic group who can claim the heritage of the Bulgars. It's not like the Slavs rose in rebellion and kicked their rulers out.

You can't claim something you don't understand. You first have to accept the real history behind bulgars, which language they spoke, where they come from, the religion they had, after that you can claim it. Current Bulgaria doesn't acknowledge Turkic history.

[Onur]

Well, that's true, but still we are the only ethnic group who can claim the heritage of the Bulgars.
No, the only group who can claim this heritage are the Bulgarian Turks including Gagauzs. They can even read these Bulgar and Cuman archaeological findings while you thracian-afghan-slavic mulattoes cannot.

If you don't believe me, go outside and ask the first Bulgarian Turk or Gagauz you see in the street to read the pliska calendar.

[Crn Volk]

You can't claim something you don't understand. You first have to accept the real history behind bulgars, which language they spoke, where they come from, the religion they had, after that you can claim it. Current Bulgaria doesn't acknowledge Turkic history.

And then they turn around and criticise Macedonians for claiming our ancient past, while at the same time claiming Thracian roots and Turkic Bulgar roots....:picard2:

[Hoca]

And then they turn around and criticise Macedonians for claiming our ancient past, while at the same time claiming Thracian roots and Turkic Bulgar roots....:picard2:

Macedonia has the right to exist. You claim history as it is, while Bulgarians cut and paste history until it can't be called history anymore but a fairytale.

[Vulcho]

You can't claim something you don't understand. You first have to accept the real history behind bulgars, which language they spoke, where they come from, the religion they had, after that you can claim it. Current Bulgaria doesn't acknowledge Turkic history.

I don't care whether the Bulgars were Turkic or not. I even voted Turkic in the poll about their origins. The language they spoke is irrelevant and doesn't change who we are today.

[Vulcho]

And then they turn around and criticise Macedonians for claiming our ancient past, while at the same time claiming Thracian roots and Turkic Bulgar roots....:picard2:

We have something you ancient wannabes can only dream about: continuity.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It is hilarious to read the responses of pan-turkos freaks like osmanliur the bulgar pomak turned turko, Altaifoo the carrot kebab boyfriend or the fyromian ex-Exarchist self-hating Bulgar. :rotfl:

I know our history is great and our people legendary. It's only natural for you jealous turko-fyromians to want to appropriate our history as yours. :picard2:

[Lemon Kush]

Summary of this thread: Bulgarians vote for their empire. Serbs vote for their empire. No one else gives a shit.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Guapo, kvarc, Midori, Partizan, Pontios, rashka, RussiaPrussia, safinator, Sokol, Sorab, Twistedmind

The people who voted for Serbs in the poll are fyromians, pan-turko freaks, a crazy greek and servians. Hilarious. :lol:

At least you people are united when it comes to Bulgar history. :rotfl: Can't believe how jealous you fyromian-turko-greeko-servos are. :rotfl:

[Guapo]

Macedonia has the right to exist.

Indeed, fuck bulgaria.


You claim history as it is, while Bulgarians cut and paste history until it can't be called history anymore but a fairytale.

True, like albanians


The people who voted for Serbs in the poll are fyromians, pan-turko freaks, a crazy greek and servians. Hilarious. :lol:

At least you people are united when it comes to Bulgar history. :rotfl: Can't believe how jealous you fyromian-turko-greeko-servos are. :rotfl:

Sucked morski's cock lately?

[Crn Volk]

The people who voted for Serbs in the poll are fyromians, pan-turko freaks, a crazy greek and servians. Hilarious. :lol:

At least you people are united when it comes to Bulgar history. :rotfl: Can't believe how jealous you fyromian-turko-greeko-servos are. :rotfl:

And those voting for Bulgars?


alb0zfinest, Albion, Archduke, bimo, Deimos, dp93, Duskfall, east, El Gre, ioan assen, Karl, Lithium, morski, Rastko, shaliza, The.Mask, Thraex, Vojnik


Shiptars, Tatars and neo-greeks....

Pamir Bulgar or?;

http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p14327.jpg

[Guapo]

And those voting for Bulgars?




Shiptars, Tatars and neo-greeks....

Pamir Bulgar or?;

http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p14327.jpg

bulgarians and alibabians are the same scum

[Crn Volk]

bulgarians and alibabians are the same scum

I can't believe modern Bulgars want to associate with Pashtuns and Afghans...anything apart from the truth I guess - Turkics

[Guapo]

I can't believe modern Bulgars want to associate with Pashtuns and Afghans...anything apart from the truth I guess - Turkics

They allied with Turks during WW1, what do you expect. Blood is thicker than water.

[Crn Volk]

They allied with Turks during WW1, what do you expect. Blood is thicker than water.

And the Magyars;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/Bulgari-ungartsi-kladovo.jpg/800px-Bulgari-ungartsi-kladovo.jpg

Pan-Turkism indeed....

[American_Hispanist]

Bulgarians vs Serbs? Serbs. Bulgarians are wannabes while Serbs are at least original.

[morski]

Bulgarians vs Serbs? Serbs. Bulgarians are wannabes while Serbs are at least original.

Get your head out of your ass. There was Bulgarian state before there was a Serbioan one. Their culture is Slavo-Byzantine, which was developped in the First Bulgarian Empire.

@ the Turks. We don't care what you think, we don't like you and you are not welcome here. Keep your focus on Analtolia, thank you very much.

[bimo]

Summary of this thread: Bulgarians vote for their empire. Serbs vote for their empire. No one else gives a shit.

not really karl albion the.mask el.gre aren't bulgarians and they are also neutral , instead for serbia voted only serbs and turks+fyromians anti-bulgarians haters :thumb001:

[archangel]

didnt know that serbs and bulgarians had an empire:)

[Onur]

@ the Turks. We don't care what you think, we don't like you and you are not welcome here. Keep your focus on Analtolia, thank you very much.
In fact, we don't care whom you wanna be either. I just want stupid Bulgarians to stop falsifying Turkic history due to their "butthurtism" of Ottoman era.

I mean, if today`s Bulgarians would claim as such, i would absolutely have no problem with them;

We came from Pamir mountains, we are Afghans and we mixed with Thracians and Slavs in Balkans. Turkic Bulgars and Cumans came here too and enslaved us inside their state/empires. Our glorious Byzantine missioners baptized us and then we were able to get away from Turkic states of Bulgars and Cumans.


But no, currently they are claiming Afghan ancestry not only for themselves, but also for Bulgar/Cuman medieval states, Volga Bulgars and other Turkic peoples too. They are falsifying medieval history and associating themselves with Bulgars and Cumans, saying that they were supposedly Pashtun Afghans too.

I know you need some glorious stories from the past to create your own national romanticism but we will never allow you to do this by hijacking Bulgar and Cuman Turkic history.

[poiuytrewq0987]

In fact, we don't care whom you wanna be either. I just want stupid Bulgarians to stop falsifying Turkic history due to their "butthurtism" of Ottoman era.

I mean, if today`s Bulgarians would claim as such, i would absolutely have no problem with them;

We came from Pamir mountains, we are Afghans and we mixed with Thracians and Slavs in Balkans. Turkic Bulgars and Cumans came here too and enslaved us inside their state/empires. Our glorious Byzantine missioners baptized us and then we were able to get away from Turkic states of Bulgars and Cumans.


But no, currently they are claiming Afghan ancestry not only for themselves, but also for Bulgar/Cuman medieval states, Volga Bulgars and other Turkic peoples too. They are falsifying medieval history and associating themselves with Bulgars and Cumans, saying that they were supposedly Pashtun Afghans too.

I know you need some glorious stories from the past to create your own national romanticism but we will never allow you to do this by hijacking Bulgar and Cuman Turkic history.

Congratulations, you have just proved how much of an idiot/troll you are.

[Hoca]

Haha, that Thraex volga dummy, put another gif picture of that Tatar girl.

[poiuytrewq0987]

didnt know that serbs and bulgarians had an empire:)

Turkish education. :laugh:

[bimo]

In fact, we don't care whom you wanna be either. I just want stupid Bulgarians to stop falsifying Turkic history due to their "butthurtism" of Ottoman era.

I mean, if today`s Bulgarians would claim as such, i would absolutely have no problem with them;



the most butthurt are you turks , the iranic theory for proto-bulgarian exist and not only according to bulgarians , live with that

average people in bulgaria don't care if proto-bulgarians were turkic or iranic , yes there are some who are pro-iranic but they are not the majority , bulgarians just know they are related to proto-bulgarians

are you turks who all the time cry because you are obsessed with turkic peoples , and don't think you are 100% turan , you are mixed too

[poiuytrewq0987]

the most butthurt are you turks , the iranic theory for proto-bulgarian exist and not only according to bulgarians , live with that

average people in bulgaria don't care if proto-bulgarians were turkic or iranic , yes there are some who are pro-iranic but they are not the majority , bulgarians just know they are related to proto-bulgarians

are you turks who all the time cry because you are obsessed with turkic peoples , and don't think you are 100% turan , you are mixed too

Not just related to proto-Bulgarians, we are proto-Bulgarians. Onur and his butt buddies can't get over it and will do everything to steal our people and history just to further their pathetic pan-turko agenda.

[Hoca]

the most butthurt are you turks , the iranic theory for proto-bulgarian exist and not only according to bulgarians , live with that

average people in bulgaria don't care if proto-bulgarians were turkic or iranic , yes there are some who are pro-iranic but they are not the majority , bulgarians just know they are related to proto-bulgarians

are you turks who all the time cry because you are obsessed with turkic peoples , and don't think you are 100% turan , you are mixed too

Over what are we butthurt? Turks had their Ottoman empire ruling over you. You are the ones who are butthurt and can't stand history because you had no empire, no history, so you make lousy theories. We don't have to believe in theories, we have the truth on our side. The evidence of Turkic civilization is all there. People already posted artifacts of Turkic civilization. They were first, you slav were later. Turkish Bulgarians who are 1 milion strong should get their own country in the Balkans.

[bimo]

Not just related to proto-Bulgarians, we are proto-Bulgarians. Onur and his butt buddies can't get over it and will do everything to steal our people and history just to further their pathetic pan-turko agenda.

of course , my point is proto-bulgarian together with slav and thracians are the modern bulgarians ancestor

[bimo]

Over what are we butthurt? Turks had their Ottoman empire ruling over you. You are the ones who are butthurt and can't stand history because you had no empire, no history, so you make lousy theories. We don't have to believe in theories, we have the truth on our side. The evidence of Turkic civilization is all there. People already posted artifacts of Turkic civilization. They were first, you slav were later. Turkish Bulgarians who are 1 milion strong should get their own country in the Balkans.

http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/~nikola1/Bul/SIMEON2.jpg

the rest of your post is just blablabla

anyway i don't have problem with turks , but see how you are angry , that's just how you are butthurt

[poiuytrewq0987]

of course , my point is proto-bulgarian together with slav and thracians are the modern bulgarians ancestor

Yes. We are Bulgars #1, but we speak Slavic today, and have primarily extra Thracian influence in the Balkans and Finno-Ugric influence in Volga-Kama.

[morski]

Over what are we butthurt? Turks had their Ottoman empire ruling over you. You are the ones who are butthurt and can't stand history because you had no empire, no history, so you make lousy theories. We don't have to believe in theories, we have the truth on our side. The evidence of Turkic civilization is all there. People already posted artifacts of Turkic civilization. They were first, you slav were later. Turkish Bulgarians who are 1 milion strong should get their own country in the Balkans.

Dream on!:loco:

[Hoca]

Good job with rewriting history that Bulgars weren't Turkic. It is funny how our former subjects trying to simulate Turkic empire builders. All you can do is simulate :D

[Archduke]

Some questions for Onur and other Turks

1. Why our second capital was called Preslav? The name has Slavic origin, but according to you the FBE was not Bulgarian. Explain.
2. Why the name of the son of Omurtag was Zvinica? Thats Slavic again.
3. Why Bulgars established so many cities with the name Beligrad. Today's capital of Serbia is established from Bulgars. What does Beligrad means in Turkish?
4. Why there are ruins of Bulgar frotresses when according to you Bulgars were nomadic people?

Four simple questions. I'm waiting.

[RussiaPrussia]

The people who voted for Serbs in the poll are fyromians, pan-turko freaks, a crazy greek and servians. Hilarious. :lol:

At least you people are united when it comes to Bulgar history. :rotfl: Can't believe how jealous you fyromian-turko-greeko-servos are. :rotfl:

why me? i told you if you consider former yugoslavia it is stronger than bulgaria. Serbia alone bulgaria is stronger, this is objective opinion. I am half german and russian so i should be the one who has here the most balanced view.

[Archduke]

Turkish Bulgarians who are 1 milion strong should get their own country in the Balkans.

Wishful thinking. :rolleyes:

Bulgarian Turks are on decline and they are around half of the number you said.

[bimo]

Good job with rewriting history that Bulgars weren't Turkic. It is funny how our former subjects trying to simulate Turkic empire builders.

again lol
i see that turkish members here can't read other post

TURKIC OR IRANIC , NO MATTER WHO THEY WERE , PROTO-BULGARIANS ARE PART OF MODERN BULGARIANS NOT TURKISH

[alfieb]

Bulgarians.

Without Basil II, the East Roman Empire may have ended in 11th century.

Serbian Empire had it easy. East Roman Empire was in full decline in 14th century.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Over what are we butthurt? Turks had their Ottoman empire ruling over you. You are the ones who are butthurt and can't stand history because you had no empire, no history, so you make lousy theories. We don't have to believe in theories, we have the truth on our side. The evidence of Turkic civilization is all there. People already posted artifacts of Turkic civilization. They were first, you slav were later. Turkish Bulgarians who are 1 milion strong should get their own country in the Balkans.

All ethnic turkos have already returned to Turkey. The remaining 600,000 Bulgarian Turks are Turkicized Bulgars like Oktay Enimehmedev and they are fully assimilated into Bulgarian culture and life. They don't want to join some crappy third world turko country otherwise they would have left for the promised land already.

[bimo]

why me? i told you if you consider former yugoslavia it is stronger than bulgaria. Serbia alone bulgaria is stronger, this is objective opinion. I am half german and russian so i should be the one who has here the most balanced view.

many russian are pro-serbian :coffee:

[poiuytrewq0987]

why me? i told you if you consider former yugoslavia it is stronger than bulgaria. Serbia alone bulgaria is stronger, this is objective opinion. I am half german and russian so i should be the one who has here the most balanced view.

Croats will never fight alongside Serbs in a major war. We saw that in WW2 when Croats mass defected from the Yugoslav army to establish the NDH.

[RussiaPrussia]

many russian are pro-serbian :coffee:

we support any slavic orthodox primarily

[Midori]

Wishful thinking. :rolleyes:

Bulgarian Turks are on decline and they are around half of the number you said.

I somehow doubt that. Muslims are known for having a high birth rate and 10 kids per family.

[morski]

why me? i told you if you consider former yugoslavia it is stronger than bulgaria. Serbia alone bulgaria is stronger, this is objective opinion. I am half german and russian so i should be the one who has here the most balanced view.

Yugoslavia is totally irrelevant to the OP, thread is about medieval empires.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I somehow doubt that. Muslims are known for having a high birth rate and 10 kids per family.

Bulgarian Turks are not Albanians. :thumb001:

[Hoca]

Actually Ethnic Bulgarians are getting Turkified again by Turkish soap series. I expect 1 million Turkish Bulgarians going to be 1.5 million at the end of this decade. The mosques are there. Turkey is there. Everything is in place :D If you are Turk you can claim Turkic history, otherwise not.

[bimo]

we support any slavic orthodox primarily

yes that's true for many russian

but russian who are very pro-serbs consider bulgarians the black sheep of slavic family

[bimo]

Actually Ethnic Bulgarians are getting Turkified again by Turkish soap series. I expect 1 million Turkish Bulgarians going to be 1.5 million at the end of this decade. The mosques are there. Turkey is there. Everything is in place :D If you are Turk you can claim Turkic history, otherwise not.

the only people you can turkified in bulgaria are gipsy , there are many gipsy wannabe turks , i suggest you turkish to turkified all gipsy in bulgaria and go back together with gypos to anatolia if this is that mostly of the turks think

[Archduke]

Actually Ethnic Bulgarians are getting Turkified again by Turkish soap series. I expect 1 million Turkish Bulgarians going to be 1.5 million at the end of this decade. The mosques are there. Turkey is there. The army is there :D

It's the other way around.

Bulgarian Turks change their Turkish names because they want to be Bulgarians. :cool: My aunt is lawyer and she says that there are at least 5 Turkish families per years who return their changed names from 89'.


I somehow doubt that. Muslims are known for having a high birth rate and 10 kids per family.

Bulgarian Turks are not really Muslim.

[RussiaPrussia]

yes that's true for many russian

but russian who are very pro-serbs consider bulgarians the black sheep of slavic family

well they supported hitler but i am half german so my view is balancing it out

[RussiaPrussia]

Yugoslavia is totally irrelevant to the OP, thread is about medieval empires.

but the question was

Wo had a mightier empire: Bulgarians or Serbs?

didnt asked in what kind of form since both were in Byzantium and ottoman empire both were Independence since, except for Serbia which was in Yugoslavia and serbs were the majority there making them kind of the successor state.

[bimo]

well they supported hitler but i am half german so my view balancing out

who supporting hitler? bulgarians ?
except very few dumb nazi teenagers no one in bulgaria is pro-hitler :picard2:

that's bulgaria was with hitler in ww2 does not mean bulgarians are pro hitler

[morski]

but the question was

Wo had a mightier empire: Bulgarians or Serbs?

didnt asked in what kind of form since both were in Byzantium and ottoman empire both were Independence since, except for Serbia which was in Yugoslavia and serbs were the majority there making them kind of the successor state.

Yugoslavia was never an empire. First it was a kingdom, then a federation of socialist republics.

[bimo]

@russiaprussia well you are right on that if we take ex-yugoslavia and bulgaria on communist era , yugoslavia was stronger , i don't have problem to admit that
but this is recent history , here we talk for general history

[RussiaPrussia]

Yugoslavia was never an empire. First it was a kingdom, then a federation of socioalist republics.

jet this republic was probably stronger than bulgaria. Now you come up with definition instead comparing real power. Also it would mean this thread is pointless to begin with if its about empires.

[morski]

jet this republic was probably stronger than bulgaria. Now you come up with definition instead comparing real power.

The question in the OP is clearly intended towards the medieval states recognized as empires by the Byzantines, everything else is off topic. Cut the bullshit about Yugoslavia now.


All are welcomed to vote.
I say Bulgarians, because:
1) as a territory Bulgarian empire was bigger than Dushan serbian empire: think Krum, Simeon, Samuel, Ioan Assen II etc.
2) culturally the Bulgarian schools influenced Serbia, Russia, Romania while the same cant be said about Serbian culture.

[Scholarios]

how the hell do you even argue about who had a "mightier" empire?

what is included as criteria for such an honor?

[Hayalet]

Some questions for Onur and other Turks

1. Why our second capital was called Preslav? The name has Slavic origin, but according to you the FBE was not Bulgarian. Explain.
2. Why the name of the son of Omurtag was Zvinica? Thats Slavic again.
3. Why Bulgars established so many cities with the name Beligrad. Today's capital of Serbia is established from Bulgars? What does Beligrad means in Turkish?
4. Why there are ruins of Bulgar frotresses when according to you Bulgars were nomadic people?

Four simple questions. I'm waiting.
To be honest, I am not overly interested in these so-called empires. Cultural assimilation is a gradual process and these states had a lifespan of a few centuries. For me, the important part is that Turkic Bulgars came to present day Bulgaria from the Pontic steppe and mixed with Slavs. When exactly did the assimilation start and end? Can the so-called FBE be defined as Bulgarian? I honestly don't know or care.


TURKIC OR IRANIC , NO MATTER WHO THEY WERE , PROTO-BULGARIANS ARE PART OF MODERN BULGARIANS NOT TURKISH
My intentions may have been misunderstood. I only limit the connection between old Bulgars and modern Bulgarians to the ethnonym, because I don't want to come across as an aggressive Turkish nationalist, teasing Bulgarians about Turkic origins. If you want to associate Bulgarians with Turkic Bulgars yourselves, be my guest. However, I won't allow distortions of history out of stupid insecurities.

[bimo]

for all turks here who want to steal bulgarian history

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire
The First Bulgarian Empire (modern Bulgarian: Първo българско царство, Parvo Balgarsko Tsarstvo) was a medieval Bulgarian state founded in the north-eastern Balkans in c. 680 by the Bulgars, which subdued or drove out the Byzantines and made their allies the South Slavic settlers. At the height of its power it spread between Budapest and the Black Sea and from the Dnieper River in modern Ukraine to the Adriatic Sea

proto-bulgarians were allied with the slav , and they contributed to form modern bulgarians people , not turkish

[Hoca]

My intentions may have been misunderstood. I only limit the connection between old Bulgars and modern Bulgarians to the ethnonym, because I don't want to come across as an aggressive Turkish nationalist, teasing Bulgarians about Turkic origins. If you want to associate Bulgarians with Turkic Bulgars yourselves, be my guest. However, I won't allow distortions of history out of stupid insecurities.
These are my thoughts and intentions too.

Fortunately these cut and paste made-up history exclusively lives forth on wikipedia.

IMHO, Turkey should be more active in the academic scene, if you don't write your history others will steal your history.

[Hoca]

the only people you can turkified in bulgaria are gipsy , there are many gipsy wannabe turks , i suggest you turkish to turkified all gipsy in bulgaria and go back together with gypos to anatolia if this is that mostly of the turks think

Gypsy is basically whole of Bulgaria's population excluding Bulgarian Turks.

[bimo]

Fortunately these cut and paste made-up history exclusively lives forth on wikipedia.



i can post also other sourche if you want, not only from wikipedia
but wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia , and the data in wikipedia are official , not like the fantasy theories from some unknown fanatic historic who some users post here to dimostrate something

[Archduke]

Gypsy is basically whole of Bulgaria's population excluding Bulgarian Turks.

Aww, we have demographic professor here. :rolleyes:

[bimo]

Gypsy is basically whole of Bulgaria's population excluding Bulgarian Turks.

lol , get a life , loser

[poiuytrewq0987]

Volga Bulgars don't see themselves as Turkics but Bulgarians same as us. Pan-turkos obsess that becasue some ancient Bulgars spoke a Turkic language thus it must mean they are Turkic, lol while completely ignoring their ethnic consciousness. That's pretty fucking pathetic. Volga Tatars/Bulgars don't want to be associated with nasty Osamlis and they don't even consider themselves related with you Turks... so fucking get over it!!!

Volga Bulgarian ethnic revival is underway and you pan-turkos can't stop it.

То е завладяно през 1556 година от руските войски на Иван Грозни. Населението на страната е наричано в Русия "казански татари", въпреки че самото то предпочита названията "мишари" или "булгари."

През XIX век и волжките българи преживяват своебразно Възраждане, а след болшевишката революция от 1917 г. официално обявяват страната си за "Българска трудова комуна". Сталин се разправя жестоко с тях. От 1928 г. българският език е забранен в училищата, а в графа националност в паспортите "болгар" е заменено с "татар", "чуваш", "мордвин" и др. Над 50 хиляди са разстреляни, други са разселени в съседни републики.

Днес част от жителите на Татарстан отново се връщат към древните си корени и предпочитат да се наричат българи.

http://paper.standartnews.com/bg/article.php?article=283177

[bimo]

It was a Bulgar Turkic empire, not related with today`s slavic Bulgarians


Cuman Turkic and Vlach empire, not related with today`s Bulgaria again.

/thread




typical propaganda from a guy with many complex

onur is the time for you to admit that because of your hate toward bulgarians you find all the possible (false) theories to put bulgarians in bad light

[poiuytrewq0987]

typical propaganda from a guy with many complex

onur is the time for you to admit that because of your hate toward bulgarians you find all the possible (false) theories to put bulgarians in bad light

It's a Turkish national pastime for them to claim and steal people that don't even identify as Turkish and have zero Turkish ethnic consciousness all because they speak a version of the language even though the Turkish locust hordes were very mixed and were not homogeneous.

[ioan assen]

Gypsy is basically whole of Bulgaria's population excluding Bulgarian Turks.
strangely, thats exacly what I thought about the Turks when I was in Turkey :): Gypsy is basically whole of Turkey's population excluding Bulgarian Turks.

[ioan assen]

how the hell do you even argue about who had a "mightier" empire?

what is included as criteria for such an honor?
Mightier=stronger. More influence, bigger teritory, bigger cultural influence etc. In all criteria Bulgarian empire wins as far as I know.

[Hoca]

strangely, thats exacly what I thought about the Turks when I was in Turkey :): Gypsy is basically whole of Turkey's population excluding Bulgarian Turks.

LOL, that probably why Bulgarians claim European looking Turks while Bulgarians themselves look like Gypsy piece for piece. I have seen how true Bulgarians look.

[ioan assen]

I somehow doubt that. Muslims are known for having a high birth rate and 10 kids per family.
:rolleyes: statistics show a decline in Bulgarian turks. Most Bulgarian Turks are educated people who have as many kids as the Bulgarians: 1, max 2.

[ioan assen]

LOL, that probably why Bulgarians claim European looking Turks while Bulgarians themselves look like Gypsy piece for piece. I have seen how true Bulgarians look.

:confused: And I have seen how real Turks looks. They are deffinately darker and gipsier looking than the Bulgarians. Thats the reality. Especially those around Alanya, but also the Istanbulians. The situation in asia is :eek: so I wonder how a Turk could have the nerve to talk about gypsies...

[ioan assen]

LOL, that probably why Bulgarians claim European looking Turks while Bulgarians themselves look like Gypsy piece for piece. I have seen how true Bulgarians look.
I dont know who is claiming who, but the reality is that both Bulgarians and Turks are dark mediteranean people, where the light ones are not found often. However Turks are darker and there are more lighter Bulgarians than Turks.

[ioan assen]

As a whole, the Turks here give the Bulgarian Turks and the Turks in Turkey very bad representation. The Turkish forum members act like brats, invading our threads in attempt to push their panturkic agenda. Sorry, but no one is interested. As I said, you have ZERO links to the Bulgars, even if they were Turkic tribe. You speak West Oghuz Turkic while Bulgars supposedly spoke Oghur Turkic. Its like me claiming Vistula Veneti as pure Bulgarians! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti

[Lemon Kush]

To all the people here saying that both of the great Bulgarian empires were ruled by "Bulgars" and that they have nothing to do with the present Bulgarians, then you are completely wrong. Those people are our ancient ancestors and descendants. The Bulgars were called Proto-Bulgarians for a reason. Of course later they mixed with the local Balkan and Slavic population. But those Proto-Bulgarians or Bulgars are a significant part of who Bulgarians are today and our history.Many Bulgarians today have names of Bulgar origin such as Omurtag, Kubrat, Tervel.

[Onur]

Those people are our ancient ancestors and descendants. The Bulgars were called Proto-Bulgarians for a reason.
This term "proto-Bulgar" is very problematic too.

The term "proto" sounds like something from antiquity, 3000-5000 years ago but this wasn't the case at all because Bulgars was there in medieval era.

Also Bulgars was Turks, speaking Oghur Turkic. They cant possibly be the "proto" of the present day Pamirian, Afghan, Thracian, slavic speaking Bulgarians. In order to be the "proto" of the Bulgarians, they would have spoken slavic language too but this wasn't the case.

Bulgars are Bulgars, not the "proto" of today`s mixed bag slavic Bulgarians. If you look for a proto, you better go to Pamir mountains and search in there but leave Turkic speaking Bulgars to the Gagauz and to other Bulgarian Turks.

[Archduke]

Also Bulgars was Turks, speaking Oghur Turkic. They cant possibly be the "proto" of the present day Pamirian, Afghan, Thracian, slavic speaking Bulgarians. In order to be the "proto" of the Bulgarians, they would have spoken slavic language too but this wasn't the case.


1. Why our second capital was called Preslav? The name has Slavic origin, but according to you the FBE was not Bulgarian. Explain.
2. Why the name of the son of Omurtag was Zvinica? Thats Slavic again.
3. Why Bulgars established so many cities with the name Beligrad. Today's capital of Serbia is established from Bulgars. What does Beligrad means in Turkish?
4. Why there are ruins of Bulgar frotresses when according to you Bulgars were nomadic people?

Four simple questions. I'm waiting.

It seems that Onur is ignoring the facts which crush his dreams.

[Lemon Kush]

Some questions for Onur and other Turks

1. Why our second capital was called Preslav? The name has Slavic origin, but according to you the FBE was not Bulgarian. Explain.
2. Why the name of the son of Omurtag was Zvinica? Thats Slavic again.
3. Why Bulgars established so many cities with the name Beligrad. Today's capital of Serbia is established from Bulgars. What does Beligrad means in Turkish?
4. Why there are ruins of Bulgar frotresses when according to you Bulgars were nomadic people?

Four simple questions. I'm waiting.

The Bulgars had adopted a Slavic language long before the establishment of Preslav, Beligrad. That is the reason. As well as Omurtag naming his son Zvinica. Bulgars started using Slavic names and speaking a Slavic language since 750 A.D. :thumb001:

[morski]

This term "proto-Bulgar" is very problematic too.

The term "proto" sounds like something from antiquity, 3000-5000 years ago but this wasn't the case at all because Bulgars was there in medieval era.

Also Bulgars was Turks, speaking Oghur Turkic. They cant possibly be the "proto" of the present day Pamirian, Afghan, Thracian, slavic speaking Bulgarians. In order to be the "proto" of the Bulgarians, they would have spoken slavic language too but this wasn't the case.

Bulgars are Bulgars, not the "proto" of today`s mixed bag slavic Bulgarians. If you look for a proto, you better go to Pamir mountains and search in there but leave Turkic speaking Bulgars to the Gagauz and to other Bulgarian Turks.

The Gagauz do not speak Oghur Turkic. The Bulgats were themselves a mixed bag. They absorbed a number of different ethnic groups while residing in the Pontic steppes, including Slavs and Slavicised Iranic tribes and the whole Bulgar conglomerate probably already used Slavic as a lingua franca at the time they conquered the Balkans. This is evident from the non conflicting biritualism of the burials associated with the Bulgars, the most of the time peaceful incorporation into the Bulgar state of tribe after tribe of Balkan Slavs in its territotial expansion, the Slavic names of some of the pre-Christian rulers, the names of the capitals of the state, the totally non problematic adoption of Old Bulgarian as the ecclesiastic and official state language as well as the dubious Oghur influence in this language.

[bimo]

according to onur mongols are turkish too since they speak an uralo-altaic language

[Onur]

The Gagauz do not speak Oghur Turkic. The Bulgats were themselves a mixed bag. They absorbed a number of different ethnic groups while residing in the Pontic steppes, including Slavs and Slavicised Iranic tribes and the whole Bulgar conglomerate probably already used Slavic as a lingua franca at the time they conquered the Balkans. This is evident from the non conflicting biritualism of the burials associated with the Bulgars, the most of the time peaceful incorporation into the Bulgar state of tribe after tribe of Balkan Slavs in its territotial expansion, the Slavic names of some of the pre-Christian rulers, the names of the capitals of the state, the totally non problematic adoption of Old Bulgarian as the ecclesiastic and official state language as well as the dubious Oghur influence in this language.
I told you i don't care how much they have been mixed with other peoples. We have a problem because your official state doctrine claims that they were originally Aryan Pashtuns from Afghanistan. You claim this since 1990s.

dubious Oghur influence?! Are you fcking idiot? We (Turks) can read pliska calendar from 8-9th century ffs. Can you do that Mr. Pashtun-Thracian?

[bimo]

I have seen how true Bulgarians look.

ooo really? post some example...

[morski]

I told you i don't care how much they have been mixed with other peoples. We have a problem because your official state doctrine claims that they were originally Aryan Pashtuns from Afghanistan. You claim this since 1990s.

dubious Oghur influence? Are you fcking idiot? We (Turks) can read pliska calendar from 8-9th century ffs. Can you do that Mr. Pashtun-Thracian?

That's not true and even if it was I don't see how it is any of your business, nor why would it affect you in any way.

I seriously doubt you personally can read very well even in your native language.:rolleyes:

In any case the origin of the Bulgars is irrelevant to the OP.

Both Bulgarian Empires lasted longer, were territorially bigger, militarily stronger and their cultural impact and legacy - greater than those of the short-lived empire of Dusan.

[bimo]

I told you i don't care how much they have been mixed with other peoples. We have a problem because your official state doctrine claims that they were originally Aryan Pashtuns from Afghanistan. You claim this since 1990s.

dubious Oghur influence? Are you fcking idiot? We (Turks) can read pliska calendar from 8-9th century ffs. Can you do that Mr. Pashtun-Thracian?

you have a problem ?
you turks don't have nothing to do with proto-bulgarians , if they were turkic or iranic this don't change nothing , who they were is bulgarian affair not your

[Archduke]

We have a problem because your official state doctrine claims that they were originally Aryan Pashtuns from Afghanistan. You claim this since 1990s.

I've just opened my brother's history book for the 8th grade. They just started to learn about Bulgars. It says that they came from Western Kazakhstan and were Turkic people. Are you happy now?

I don't know how a Turk from Turkey knows more about the state doctorine of my country. :lol:

[Onur]

I seriously doubt you personally can read very well even in your native language.:rolleyes:

http://i.data.bg/06/09/17/71634_orig.jpg
http://img.geocaching.com/track/large/8ed0509a-ab4d-47a2-bc72-e7ac442146dd.jpg
http://little.freakheadz.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/Calendar.gif


If you don't believe me, then ask the Bulgarian wannabe forumer east or print out this picture and ask the first Bulgarian Turk you see in the street. The red colored words in the last picture are transliteration from Turkic Runic to Latin script.

Or use google translate for the words "Tavşan, it, teke, pars, domuz (doks)".

I didn't know that you are that stupid.

[bimo]

I've just opened my brother's history book for the 8th grade. They just started to learn about Bulgars. It says that they came from Western Kazakhstan and were Turkic people. Are you happy now?

I don't know how a Turk from Turkey knows more about the state doctorine of my country. :lol:

no he is not happy , he want to listed " bulgars were turkish" not only turkic :D

[Archduke]

no he is not happy , he want to listed " bulgars were turkish" not only turkic :D

Onur thinks that he is direct descendant of the Bulgars. :laugh:

[morski]

http://little.freakheadz.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/Calendar.gif




These are not the original transliterations, but I put this to you again - the origin of the Bulgars is irrelevant. Had they been Martian the result would have been the same, the Bulgarians evolved as a Slavic speaking, majority Christian, Slavo-Byzantine in culture people and both the First and Second Bulgarian Empires are in continuity with our modern state and nation. Now leave the thread if you please.

[morski]

dubious Oghur influence?! Are you fcking idiot? We (Turks) can read pliska calendar from 8-9th century ffs. Can you do that Mr. Pashtun-Thracian?

You certainly can't read English very well and the problems with comprehending the meaning of what I wrote there is evident.

Yes, there is little if any Oghur influence in Old Bulgarian/OCS.

[Archduke]

If you don't believe me, then ask the Bulgarian wannabe forumer east or print out this picture and ask the first Bulgarian Turk you see in the street. The red colored words in the last picture are transliteration from Turkic Runic to Latin script.

Or use google translate for the words "Tavşan, it, teke, pars, domuz (doks)

The Pliska calendar is not Turkic. It's Thracian.

The people from Thrace and the Eagean regions had their own scripts in ancient times. Today these scripts are famous as Linear A and Linear B. The Pliska calendar is based on these scripts.

Comapre the runes from the calendar with Linear A and Linear B

http://sparotok.blog.bg/photos/83734/original/RUNI%20Linear(1).jpg

http://sparotok.blog.bg/photos/83734/original/Pliska%20rozetka(4).jpg

Evidence that the runes from Pliska have a common origin with the ancient Aegean writing systems is that if on the basis of similarities with linear scripts introduce sound values ​​of the runes from Pliska, we have Bulgarian Slavic words !

http://sparotok.blog.bg/photos/83734/original/PLISKA%20CHETENE.JPG

ЛЕПИ- лепъ-хубав, подходящ;
САА- сая, сянка [1]
ЛОНО- лоно, основа;
ПЕКЕ – пек, жега;
БУРА- буря;
ЕТИ, ЯТИ – хващам, вярвам, започвам;
ВОПИ – вопъл, въпити-викам;



I didn't know that you are that stupid.

Don't dare to insult in our section, turk.

[Lemon Kush]

The Bulgars were NOT Slavic in orgin. Practically none of the human skulls and skeletons that are found in Bulgaria or Macedonia have any Slavic features whatsoever. They were Scytho-Samartian (ancient Iranic people) with Turkic speaking elite. They may have absorbed some Turkic (Mongoloid) elements due to being in close proximity to them. Bulgarian shares many similarities with Iranian languages as well as culture and DNA.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Bulgars were NOT Slavic in orgin. Practically none of the human skulls and skeletons that are found in Bulgaria or Macedonia have any Slavic features whatsoever. They were Scytho-Samartian (ancient Iranic people) with Turkic speaking elite. They may have absorbed some Turkic (Mongoloid) elements due to being in close proximity to them. Bulgarian shares many similarities with Iranian languages as well as culture and DNA.

Slavic is just a language group, not a genetic group.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Game over for Onur's pan-turko fantasies.


The Pliska calendar is not Turkic. It's Thracian.

The people from Thrace and the Eagean regions had their own scripts in ancient times. Today these scripts are famous as Linear A and Linear B. The Pliska calendar is based on these scripts.

Comapre the runes from the calendar with Linear A and Linear B

http://sparotok.blog.bg/photos/83734/original/RUNI%20Linear(1).jpg

http://sparotok.blog.bg/photos/83734/original/Pliska%20rozetka(4).jpg

Evidence that the runes from Pliska have a common origin with the ancient Aegean writing systems is that if on the basis of similarities with linear scripts introduce sound values ​​of the runes from Pliska, we have Bulgarian Slavic words !

http://sparotok.blog.bg/photos/83734/original/PLISKA%20CHETENE.JPG

ЛЕПИ- лепъ-хубав, подходящ;
САА- сая, сянка [1]
ЛОНО- лоно, основа;
ПЕКЕ – пек, жега;
БУРА- буря;
ЕТИ, ЯТИ – хващам, вярвам, започвам;
ВОПИ – вопъл, въпити-викам;




Don't dare to insult in our section, turk.

[Onur]

These are not the original transliterations
Yes they are the original words written in runic;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_calendar

Here is the transliteration of the Turkic one from early medieval archeological remains in central Asia. Compare the words with the one found in Pliska;

http://www.sahidenmi.com/wp-content/uploads/TAKV%C4%B0M.bmp



The Pliska calendar is not Turkic. It's Thracian.
Omg, new falsification attempt by Bulgarians. I didn't know this one!!!

If it`s Thracians, then explain to me how on earth all the Turks in central Asia as well as Chinese was also using the same?

Your pathetic scholars also claims that runic was Thracian too? This script used by Hungarians as well as Turks. Now you also need to explain how Hungarians and all the Turks in Eurasia adopted runic from Thracians.

Also explain if Germanics, Scandinavian peoples learned runic script from Thracians too!!!


Fcking pathetic Bulgarian scholars, they are a disgrace for the world academics.

[morski]

The Bulgars were NOT Slavic in orgin. Practically none of the human skulls and skeletons that are found in Bulgaria or Macedonia have any Slavic features whatsoever. They were Scytho-Samartian (ancient Iranic people) with Turkic speaking elite. They may have absorbed some Turkic (Mongoloid) elements due to being in close proximity to them. Bulgarian shares many similarities with Iranian languages as well as culture and DNA.

Slavic is a linguistic term, no such thing as Slavic physical features.

[morski]

Yes they are the original words written in runic;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_calendar

Here is the transliteration of the Turkic one from early medieval archeological remains in central Asia. Compare the words with the one found in Pliska;

http://www.sahidenmi.com/wp-content/uploads/TAKV%C4%B0M.bmp




Good. You made your point, it is irrelevant to this thread, however, so now be so kind to either post on topic or leave.

[Garbo]

Who had a mightier empire Bulgars or Serbs

https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/13/1/30/WCBMMcspr0-VGRcSBijRYg2.png

[Archduke]

If it`s Thracians, then explain to me how on earth all the Turks in central Asia as well as Chinese was also using the same?

You explain me how it is identical to Linear A and Linear B. Mycenaean Greeks are Turkic now too?


Your pathetic scholars also claims that runic was Thracian too?


Fcking pathetic Bulgarian scholars, they are a disgrace for the world academics.

:lol:

That's sign for weakness. You are out of arguments.

[Archduke]

Thread closed. It provoked hatred between members.

Onur, if you still want to argue about the Pliska calendar, just make new thread.