The Atlantic Facade Populations

[Anthropologique]

History, archaeology, cultures, genetics of Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Normandy, Aquitaine, Gascony, Spain and Portugal, primarily.

Recommended reading for starters: Cunliffe & Koch, eds. Celtic from the West, 2010

[Anthropologique]

Bump.

[Grace O'Malley]

Was Atlantic Facade coined by Barry Cunliffe? Is there any connection other than R1b? Hopefully someone can answer.

Is there any connection with the Celts? I'm not sure what it means to be Celtic anymore to be honest. As far as I'm aware there are no "Celtic" genetics.

[Anthropologique]

Was Atlantic Facade coined by Barry Cunliffe? Is there any connection other than R1b? Hopefully someone can answer.

Is there any connection with the Celts? I'm not sure what it means to be Celtic anymore to be honest. As far as I'm aware there are no "Celtic" genetics.

As far as I know, the term "Atlantic facade" did not originate with Cunliffe. The point is that the facade regions were interconnected, north to south, for many, many centuries by virtue of maritime trade (metals being a major component), leading to extensive social and cultural exchange, particularly during the Bronze Age and Iron Age, when Celticity dominated in Atlantic Europe.

BTW, Tartessian (SW Iberia Script) has been attested by a large number of renowned linguists and philologists as the earliest Celtic language. The claim is that Tartessian is at least 100 years older than Lepontic.

[Grace O'Malley]

So Celtic language and sea travel connected these populations? It should be interesting with genetics in the next few years.

The Milesians who populations Ireland in Irish mythology came from Spain. I'll have to look up some more information.

[Anthropologique]

So Celtic language and sea travel connected these populations? It should be interesting with genetics in the next few years.

The Milesians who populations Ireland in Irish mythology came from Spain. I'll have to look up some more information.

The University of Wales and University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee (google I-Celtic) have produced great - much of it ground breaking- work on Celticity. Many terrific Celtic scholars are around now-a-days, like Koch, Cunliffe, Wodtko, producing highly advanced papers regularly.

Today's Atlantic Celts are all related by a shared genetic substrta, among other things...Portugal, Spain, Ireland... to the Shetlands and Orkney. :) The Celtic cradle for we Atlantics is likely SW Spain and Portugal (or ancient Tartessia), not Central Europe (Hallstatt and La Te'ne culture).

[gold_fenix]

As far as I know, the term "Atlantic facade" did not originate with Cunliffe. The point is that the facade regions were interconnected, north to south, for many, many centuries by virtue of maritime trade (metals being a major component), leading to extensive social and cultural exchange, particularly during the Bronze Age and Iron Age, when Celticity dominated in Atlantic Europe.

BTW, Tartessian (SW Iberia Script) has been attested by a large number of renowned linguists and philologists as the earliest Celtic language. The claim is that Tartessian is at least 100 years older than Lepontic.

proto-celtic really, if we speak of celtic languaje the oldest texts are in Ireland and Spain (Asturias)

[Lábaru]

Was Atlantic Facade coined by Barry Cunliffe? Is there any connection other than R1b? Hopefully someone can answer.

Is there any connection with the Celts? I'm not sure what it means to be Celtic anymore to be honest. As far as I'm aware there are no "Celtic" genetics.

No, not only Celts. Before Indo European expansion there were people in Western Europe, people of whom we know little of their language or culture, Iberians for sure, maybe Silures--->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silures and Picts ect...

These people were "celtitized" in a greater or lesser degree.

[Anthropologique]

No, not only Celts. Before Indo European expansion there were people in Western Europe, people of whom we know little of their language or culture, Iberians for sure, maybe Silures--->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silures and Picts ect...

These people were "celtitized" in a greater or lesser degree.

No one really knows what the Silures looked like. The Ancients - at least the most famous Greek historians - never travelled to the British Isles and depended mainly on anecdotal accounts. Phenotypes of the oldest tribes in Europe have often been exaggerated.

[Anthropologique]

proto-celtic really, if we speak of celtic languaje the oldest texts are in Ireland of in Spain (Asturias)

Might want to read Koch (2009, 2010, 2011), Untermann (1996) and some others...

[Prince Carlo]

BTW, Tartessian (SW Iberia Script) has been attested by a large number of renowned linguists and philologists as the earliest Celtic language. The claim is that Tartessian is at least 100 years older than Lepontic.

The oldest written Celtic language. Do not forget that the oldest written indoeuropean language has been found in Turkey.

[Anthropologique]

The oldest written Celtic language. Do not forget that the oldest written indoeuropean language has been found in Turkey.

Well, Tartessian has been attested as the oldest WRITTEN Celtic language; only desperate, "academic territory protectors" (outliers) believe otherwise now :bored:...elaborate grave markings in SW Spain and Portugal have been well researched. This thread is srtictly about he Atlantic fringe, culture, language, etc.

[Prince Carlo]

Well, Tartessian has been attested as the oldest WRITTEN Celtic language; only desperate, "academic territory protectors" (outliers) believe otherwise now :bored:...elaborate grave markings in SW Spain and Portugal have been well researched. This thread is srtictly about he Atlantic fringe, culture, language, etc.


The Celtic cradle for we Atlantics is likely SW Spain and Portugal (or ancient Tartessia), not Central Europe (Hallstatt and La Te'ne culture).

Well using this logic IndoEuropeans originated in the Middleast. :rolleyes:

[MM81]

Anthropologique, you can't insert all of Iberia in the Atlantic Façade.
Portugal, and the part of Spain from A Corunha to the french border fit. The rest, no. You can't seriously assume that Catalunya and Andalucia fit the "Atlantic continuum/façade"... Both geographically and, especially, culturally.
http://www.google.it/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=0DtBFRN-TUnOGM&tbnid=6fy30RyIRucFQM:&ved=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmax510.com%2F2010%2F03%2F05%2Fspa gna-del-nord-seguendo-le-orme-dei-pellegrini-in-pdf%2F&ei=f4sLUeeaM6em4ATr_YHYCg&psig=AFQjCNHOR337sQ7j3nAMOsB54yp3B1p5zA&ust=1359797503887189

[somerled]

The University of Wales and University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee (google I-Celtic) have produced great - much of it ground breaking- work on Celticity. Many terrific Celtic scholars are around now-a-days, like Koch, Cunliffe, Wodtko, producing highly advanced papers regularly.

Today's Atlantic Celts are all related by a shared genetic substrta, among other things...Portugal, Spain, Ireland... to the Shetlands and Orkney. :) The Celtic cradle for we Atlantics is likely SW Spain and Portugal (or ancient Tartessia), not Central Europe (Hallstatt and La Te'ne culture).

This is at odds with autosomal genetic studies which show the British and Irish cluster with the North Sea facade including Sweden before any others. There is also a closer relationship to Central Europeans who occupy the ancient Hallstatt and La Tene homelands ahead of any Iberian connections. The genetic relationship along the Atlantic facade doesn't appear to be particularly unique and is just a reflection of geographical distance.

[Hesperión]

No one really knows what the Silures looked like. The Ancients - at least the most famous Greek historians - never travelled to the British Isles and depended mainly on anecdotal accounts. Phenotypes of the oldest tribes in Europe have often been exaggerated.Couldn't this Atlantic façade be the remnants of an ancient Western continuum, starting east with the Ligures (SE France, NW Italy), Iberians, Aquitanians, Silures, maybe Picts?

[spaniard69]

Anthropologique, you can't insert all of Iberia in the Atlantic Façade.
Portugal, and the part of Spain from A Corunha to the french border fit. The rest, no. You can't seriously assume that Catalunya and Andalucia fit the "Atlantic continuum/façade"... Both geographically and, especially, culturally.

Precisely West Andalucia and Algarve are culturally the Tartessian core. And yes geografically, it's Atlantic Façade

[somerled]

Couldn't this Atlantic façade be the remnants of an ancient Western continuum, starting east with the Ligures (SE France, NW Italy), Iberians, Aquitanians, Silures, maybe Picts?

Not regarding the Picts no. Ancient Pictish blood probably constitutes the majority of modern Scots blood and Scots genetically cluster in North West Europe. Tacitus, writing of the exploits of his father-in-law Gnaeus Julius Agricola who fought against the Caledonians (an early name for the Picts) in 83AD, has him describe them as so “The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin".

[MM81]

Precisely West Andalucia and Algarve are culturally the Tartessian core. And yes geografically, it's Atlantic Façade
Just a little piece. And what about andalus culture? It doesn't seem "atlantic" at all...
http://www.canellatour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/andalusia1.jpg

[spaniard69]

Just a little piece. And what about andalus culture? It doesn't seem "atlantic" at all...
http://www.canellatour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/andalusia1.jpg

Is it a joke? Ha,ha, that's a modern touristic map. Was Andalusia part of the Roman Empire? Is "andalus culture" roman? Those plains in the map, are roman vestiges?

The geographical Tartessos Empire:
http://jonkepa.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/mapas-imperiales-imperio-de-tartessos.jpg

[Jackson]

This is at odds with autosomal genetic studies which show the British and Irish cluster with the North Sea facade including Sweden before any others. There is also a closer relationship to Central Europeans who occupy the ancient Hallstatt and La Tene homelands ahead of any Iberian connections. The genetic relationship along the Atlantic facade doesn't appear to be particularly unique and is just a reflection of geographical distance.

I think he means the 'Western European' autosomal components and significant amounts of R1b. The autosomal component is a major one in both NW Europe and SW Europe, but yes in terms of overall genetics, NW Europeans are more similar to other NW Europeans than to SW Europeans. But still there is a shared history somewhere along the line, which i think is important to investigate anyway.

[MM81]

It's not a joke. I'm asking you if today in 2013, Andalucia can be considered a culturally atlantic region or not. Is it as atlantic as Porto or Asturias?
Celts matter not, they lived in today Balkans, too, but you obviously can't call a balkanite "celtic" or "atlantic". No es dificil...

[spaniard69]

It's not a joke. I'm asking you if today in 2013, Andalucia can be considered a culturally atlantic region or not. Is it as atlantic as Porto or Asturias?
Celts matter not, they lived in today Balkans, too, but you obviously can't call a balkanite "celtic" or "atlantic". No es dificil...

Well then you and me are not speaking about the same matter. I speak about Tartessos culture and you speak about 2013.

Andalucia can be considered culturally atlantic region? God knows.

[Grace O'Malley]

This is a really interesting discussion. I read up a little on Tartessian and there is dispute on whether it is a Celtic language. I think the consensus is there is still too little known about it and many disagree with Koch.

It is fascinating anyway. I hope to learn more about it.

Here is a blog where it is discussed.

http://vasco-caucasian.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/is-really-tartessian-celtic-language.html

[Lábaru]

It's not a joke. I'm asking you if today in 2013, Andalucia can be considered a culturally atlantic region or not. Is it as atlantic as Porto or Asturias?
Celts matter not, they lived in today Balkans, too, but you obviously can't call a balkanite "celtic" or "atlantic". No es dificil...

Yes, Andalucia is an Atlantic region, and Catalonia too, which does not mean that there are also influences from the Mediterranean.


Well then you and me are not speaking about the same matter. I speak about Tartessos culture and you speak about 2013.


In 2013 we are all Americans, with mcdonalds and iphones.

[evon]

What about us Western Norwegians, we are also Atlantic and carry R1b:)

[MM81]

We could be all americanized (we write in english among intelligible romance speakers, indeed) but we've got centuries of civilization behind us and a lot of history that defined who we are. Catalunya's history has always been linked to the Mediterranean. Barcelona is one of the most important mediterranean cities (and, more recently, also Valencia).
The Crown of Aragòn ruled the western and central med sea for centuries (they even had territories in Greece).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Corona_d'Aragona.jpg
So it's hard to define "atlantic" a catalan, imho.

[gold_fenix]

What about us Western Norwegians, we are also Atlantic and carry R1b:)

of course

[evon]

The Atlantic for many seems like a desert on the borders to rich cities, but from history we know it was more like a wild highway linking us all together:)

[Pallantides]

Martin Andresen, East Norwegian football player and coach
http://kristiansandbk.org/Bilder%20spillere/martin%20andresen.jpg
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00823/Martin_Andresen_823323p.jpg
http://static.vg.no/leonora/bildarkiv/1120975811.23035.gif
http://fotball.adressa.no/multimedia/archive/00060/2_60158d.jpg
http://gfx.nrk.no/2hsJPHW91Psb0bVb-1GndAQnjoDDzfpyXDbo_1jTO3Tw
http://static.vg.no/leonora/bildarkiv/1094552949.00702.jpg
http://fotball.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00032/martin_andresen_32667a.jpg

[Anthropologique]

This is at odds with autosomal genetic studies which show the British and Irish cluster with the North Sea facade including Sweden before any others. There is also a closer relationship to Central Europeans who occupy the ancient Hallstatt and La Tene homelands ahead of any Iberian connections. The genetic relationship along the Atlantic facade doesn't appear to be particularly unique and is just a reflection of geographical distance.

No one is talking about clustering. The reason NW Euros cluster with other northern population groups has to do principally with the Germanic and Norse invasions, which left a much more substantial footprint, vis-a-vis the southern Atlantic facade.

[Anthropologique]

It's not a joke. I'm asking you if today in 2013, Andalucia can be considered a culturally atlantic region or not. Is it as atlantic as Porto or Asturias?
Celts matter not, they lived in today Balkans, too, but you obviously can't call a balkanite "celtic" or "atlantic". No es dificil...

"Celtic" now-a-days concerns culture, not race - since the genetics have not yet been fully worked through. The point is that the majority of Spain is Atlantic in many ways, and practically all of Portugal and Western France. Historically, the largest fraction of the Iberian Peninsula has always been Atlantic. And, yes, Tartessian, a Celtic language according to a majority of experts, was spoken in parts of Andalusia.

[Anthropologique]

This is a really interesting discussion. I read up a little on Tartessian and there is dispute on whether it is a Celtic language. I think the consensus is there is still too little known about it and many disagree with Koch.

It is fascinating anyway. I hope to learn more about it.

Here is a blog where it is discussed.

http://vasco-caucasian.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/is-really-tartessian-celtic-language.html

A lot has been published since the reference you posted, and its author is not a professional linguist of philologist. Read, for instance, Guy Youkum's paper, Aspect in Old Irish: the Case of 'ro-' (2011). He's one of the world's most respected philologists and places Tartessian fully in the Celtic category. The critics are mostly outliers now.

[Anthropologique]

What about us Western Norwegians, we are also Atlantic and carry R1b:)

Yes, absolutely. Remember, I just listed the "primary regions."

[Anthropologique]

Martin Andresen, East Norwegian football player and coach
http://kristiansandbk.org/Bilder%20spillere/martin%20andresen.jpg
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00823/Martin_Andresen_823323p.jpg
http://static.vg.no/leonora/bildarkiv/1120975811.23035.gif
http://fotball.adressa.no/multimedia/archive/00060/2_60158d.jpg
http://gfx.nrk.no/2hsJPHW91Psb0bVb-1GndAQnjoDDzfpyXDbo_1jTO3Tw
http://static.vg.no/leonora/bildarkiv/1094552949.00702.jpg
http://fotball.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00032/martin_andresen_32667a.jpg

Could be Irish, Scottish, English, Welsh, French, Spanish, Portuguese...

[Grace O'Malley]

A lot has been published since the reference you posted, and its author is not a professional linguist of philologist. Read, for instance, Guy Youkum's paper, Aspect in Old Irish: the Case of 'ro-' (2011). He's one of the world's most respected philologists and places Tartessian fully in the Celtic category. The critics are mostly outliers now.

Thanks Anthropologique. I'll look this up. I think I need to go to bed. I had to edit this because I just called you Tartessian lol.

[Anthropologique]

Thanks Tartessian. I'll look this up.

p.s. don't be confused by all the codswallop being cast about on Wikipedia. There are some nervous Celtic academics over on the "Tartessian Language" thread that, because of the increasing evidence, fear some of their life's work now has little validity. Science marches on...

[Anthropologique]

Thanks Anthropologique. I'll look this up. I think I need to go to bed. I had to edit this because I just called you Tartessian lol.

No problem, Alice. Knowledge and truth are what counts. :thumb001:

[Anthropologique]

Not regarding the Picts no. Ancient Pictish blood probably constitutes the majority of modern Scots blood and Scots genetically cluster in North West Europe. Tacitus, writing of the exploits of his father-in-law Gnaeus Julius Agricola who fought against the Caledonians (an early name for the Picts) in 83AD, has him describe them as so “The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin".

The Ancients were not the best at describing population types. They mostly used anecdotal accounts, which tended to be more wrong than right

Also, a lot of chestnut hair (generally a red / brown / blond blend) is found along the Atlantic facade, which could have been mistaken for true red at the time.

[Anthropologique]

Just a little piece. And what about andalus culture? It doesn't seem "atlantic" at all...
http://www.canellatour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/andalusia1.jpg

Err, a tourist collector item?

[Lábaru]

Just a little piece. And what about andalus culture? It doesn't seem "atlantic" at all...
http://www.canellatour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/andalusia1.jpg

:picard1:You're being ridiculous. Try not to dirty the thread please. Andalusia and Catalonia have obvious Mediterranean and Atlantic influences, like the rest of Iberia.

[Anthropologique]

:picard1:You're being ridiculous. Try not to dirty the thread please. Andalusia and Catalonia have obvious Mediterranean and Atlantic influences, like the rest of Iberia.

Let the flapdoodle flinging begin... Any trade in tourist maps of Andalusia? :D

[somerled]

No one is talking about clustering. The reason NW Euros cluster with other northern population groups has to do principally with the Germanic and Norse invasions, which left a much more substantial footprint, vis-a-vis the southern Atlantic facade.

Fair enough, I see now that you are pinpointing an ancient substratum that exists in differing degrees throughout Western Europe.
I'm not so sure that Germanic and Norse invasions were the principle catalyst for change though. The ancient Britons and ancient Germanics appear to have been of similar stock, the product of Hunter gatherer populations that perhaps dispersed from Doggerland.

[Allenson]

No one is talking about clustering. The reason NW Euros cluster with other northern population groups has to do principally with the Germanic and Norse invasions, which left a much more substantial footprint, vis-a-vis the southern Atlantic facade.

Certinaly the northwesterners, particularly the British and Irish, lie somewhere inbetween the Scandinavians and the Atlantish folks to their south/southwest (Bretons, Iberians, etc.) along the Atlantic continuum from Gibraltar to Norway.

http://www.york.ac.uk/archaeology/middens/images/images_resources/europereal.jpg

[somerled]

The Ancients were not the best at describing population types. They mostly used anecdotal accounts, which tended to be more wrong than right

Also, a lot of chestnut hair (generally a red / brown / blond blend) is found along the Atlantic facade, which could have been mistaken for true red at the time.

In principle I don't see how the ancients would be any less capable of observation than us moderns and Gnaeus Julius Agricola would have had direct contact with thousands of Picts. Take into account modern genetic evidence and he appears to be right on the nose.

[Albion]

Well, Tartessian has been attested as the oldest WRITTEN Celtic language; only desperate, "academic territory protectors" (outliers) believe otherwise now :bored:...elaborate grave markings in SW Spain and Portugal have been well researched. This thread is srtictly about he Atlantic fringe, culture, language, etc.

I thought that honour went to Lepontic? :confused:


No one is talking about clustering. The reason NW Euros cluster with other northern population groups has to do principally with the Germanic and Norse invasions, which left a much more substantial footprint, vis-a-vis the southern Atlantic facade.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4161/r1bsubstructurev2.png

[somerled]

Certinaly the northwesterners, particularly the British and Irish, lie somewhere inbetween the Scandinavians and the Atlantish folks to their south/southwest (Bretons, Iberians, etc.) along the Atlantic continuum from Gibraltar to Norway.

http://www.york.ac.uk/archaeology/middens/images/images_resources/europereal.jpg

It's not that one dimensional though. The British and Irish show closer genetic distances to Austrians than to Iberians so the continuum running from Central Europe through to the North West is just as important. Populations are largely related to each other as a reflection of their geographical distances but the British Isles as a whole pulls more to the Germanic areas than would otherwise be expected.

[Anthropologique]

I thought that honour went to Lepontic? :confused:



http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4161/r1bsubstructurev2.png

Tartessian has been attested as at least 100 years older.

[somerled]

Well, Tartessian has been attested as the oldest WRITTEN Celtic language; only desperate, "academic territory protectors" (outliers) believe otherwise now :bored:...elaborate grave markings in SW Spain and Portugal have been well researched. This thread is srtictly about he Atlantic fringe, culture, language, etc.

Sorry Anthropologique, it appears I've somewhat hijacked this thread, I'll refrain from this. :picard1:

[Anthropologique]

It's not that one dimensional though. The British and Irish show closer genetic distances to Austrians than to Iberians so the continuum running from Central Europe through to the North West is just as important. Populations are largely related to each other as a reflection of their geographical distances but the British Isles as a whole pulls more to the Germanic areas than would otherwise be expected.

At foundation, the NW and SW population groups are genetically closer to one another, compared to the SW / SE Europeans metrics. That is to say, for instance SW runs much nearer to, say, England than to Greece.

[Anthropologique]

Sorry Anthropologique, it appears I've somewhat hijacked this thread, I'll refrain from this. :picard1:

No issues, my friend... :)

[Allenson]

It's not that one dimensional though. The British and Irish show closer genetic distances to Austrians than to Iberians so the continuum running from Central Europe through to the North West is just as important. Populations are largely related to each other as a reflection of their geographical distances but the British Isles as a whole pulls more to the Germanic areas than would otherwise be expected.

Oh, I agree that these things are multi-dimensional. I was just pointing out one axis. I would say that there's an important continuum up and down the Euopean Atlantic from Portugal to Norway and yes, another running NW--SE from the Isles, across the Channel to the Low Countries, Rhine valley (major genetic artery) and into central/SE Europe.

[Pallantides]

Heidi Ruud Ellingsen from Narvik, Northern Norway
http://www.sandvika-storband.no/Heidi%20Ruud%20Ellingsen.jpg
http://bilde.seher.no/@nettnorsk-gifter+seg+i+siste+sesong+av+%ABhjem%BB.jpg?o=4646 199&w=690&h=400&ee=1357194640
http://www.musikk-kultur.no/nyesider/bilder/ruud.jpg
http://i.blogg.no/400x641/http://evalinia.blogg.no/images/_jl29550_1218563624.jpg
http://bilde.seher.no/pia+tjelta-+de+er+s%E5+fantastisk+flinke+gutter.jpg?o=2898836&w=312&h=416&ee=1232552426

[Anthropologique]

Heidi Ruud Ellingsen from Narvik, Northern Norway
http://www.sandvika-storband.no/Heidi%20Ruud%20Ellingsen.jpg
http://bilde.seher.no/@nettnorsk-gifter+seg+i+siste+sesong+av+%ABhjem%BB.jpg?o=4646 199&w=690&h=400&ee=1357194640
http://www.musikk-kultur.no/nyesider/bilder/ruud.jpg
http://i.blogg.no/400x641/http://evalinia.blogg.no/images/_jl29550_1218563624.jpg
http://bilde.seher.no/pia+tjelta-+de+er+s%E5+fantastisk+flinke+gutter.jpg?o=2898836&w=312&h=416&ee=1232552426

WOW!! She actually resembles a Breton cousin of mine. :)

[somerled]

At foundation, the NW and SW population groups are genetically closer to one another, compared to the SW / SE Europeans metrics. That is to say, for instance SW runs much nearer to, say, England than to Greece.

Yes we can agree on this. The Iberians are basically more Western Europeans than Southern Europeans.

[Damião de Góis]

I'm not sure if this is pan-euro or just atlantic... or if he looks strictly portuguese?

http://www.ionline.pt/adjuntos/102/imagenes/000/155/0000155902.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_u0F-r4RaRg4/SK1KwdCeeqI/AAAAAAAAFag/wXSWQizDBPs/s400/FL+vencedor+absoluto+2.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CSNM_Ezm2Wg/TMht3RFe6jI/AAAAAAAAAOU/ARUsfCUW3w4/s1600/franciscolobato.jpg

[Hesperión]

Tacitus, writing of the exploits of his father-in-law Gnaeus Julius Agricola who fought against the Caledonians (an early name for the Picts) in 83AD, has him describe them as so “The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin".Funnily enough red hair is nothing common in Germany, even less so in Austria.

Incidentally, red hair is fairly common here in the Mediterranean eastern Spain. And it's nothing rare to see a parent with dark hair (probably Atlantid, though many would say Mediterranid since they are Spaniards) and a red haired child.

It appears to me as if Tacitus is largely overrated on these forums.

[Hesperión]

He must be a very exotic Norwegian.

I've never seen a Scandinavian looking similar to him.

Martin Andresen, East Norwegian football player and coach
http://kristiansandbk.org/Bilder%20spillere/martin%20andresen.jpg
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00823/Martin_Andresen_823323p.jpg
http://static.vg.no/leonora/bildarkiv/1120975811.23035.gif
http://fotball.adressa.no/multimedia/archive/00060/2_60158d.jpg
http://gfx.nrk.no/2hsJPHW91Psb0bVb-1GndAQnjoDDzfpyXDbo_1jTO3Tw
http://static.vg.no/leonora/bildarkiv/1094552949.00702.jpg
http://fotball.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00032/martin_andresen_32667a.jpg

[Albion]

Funnily enough red hair is nothing common in Germany, even less so in Austria.

Incidentally, red hair is fairly common here in the Mediterranean eastern Spain. And it's nothing rare to see a parent with dark hair (probably Atlantid, though many would say Mediterranid since they are Spaniards) and a red haired child.

It appears to me as if Tacitus is largely overrated on these forums.

It's farily common in the Low Countries and Scandinavia though. Germany and Austria aren't pure Germanics. Neither are the English, but Germanics here mixed with Celts that probably had a higher proportion of red heads than they did.

[MM81]

Err, a tourist collector item?

And so? It's the first pic I catched on the web. It doesn't matter what it is, it has the region's border, that's what I needed. I'm a pragmatic genoese, you know... we don't care of many bullshits like other people do :D

[Pallantides]

I've never seen a Scandinavian looking similar to him.

I have, but it's definitely not the most common look though.



Geir Moen
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/kunnskap/2002/10/09/5U71P0ER.jpg
http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2009/08/18/1250546499191_640.jpg

Magnus Hovdal Moan
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00863/Magnus_Moan_863710i.jpg
http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2010/galleries/olympichotties/magnus-moan-1.jpg
http://sport.adressa.no/multimedia/archive/00176/Moan_Ski_176744o.jpg

Both are East Norwegians.

[Hesperión]

It's farily common in the Low Countries and Scandinavia though.In the Low Countries, yes. But much of it were a western people later invaded by Germanic peoples.

I have some doubts about the incidence of red hair in Scandinavia, especially in Sweden. It's probably more common in Norway than in Sweden though. Considering that the Germanics arrived from the east, it should give a clue.


Germany and Austria aren't pure Germanics. Neither are the English, but Germanics here mixed with Celts that probably had a higher proportion of red heads than they did.Thus if we went by what Tacitus wrote, we'd be assuming that red hair is a Germanic characteristic, and therefore Germans and Austrians would be little to nothing Germanic.

Either that, or Tacitus was drinking wine from Hispania without watering it down (which the Romans always did with the wine from Hispania) at the time of writing.

[Hesperión]

Magnus Hovdal Moan
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00863/Magnus_Moan_863710i.jpgBloody Hell! He's the spitting image of a friend of mine!

What's the story with these guys? I mean, where do they originate? or how and when did they end up in Norway?

[evon]

Bloody Hell! He's the spitting image of a friend of mine!

What's the story with these guys? I mean, where do they originate? or how and when did they end up in Norway?

Norway has had allot of immigration from Netherlands, which was also a migration destination for more southern peoples prior to the Dutch exodus to Norway, but could also be via the other immigrating peoples from; Germany, UK, Denmark ect...or it could be a native look? A childhood friend of mine is much darker and he has only known Norwegian ancestry:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6007/63664546.jpg

Same with these brothers whom are from near where my own family come from:

http://bilde.seher.no/ylvis+tar+den+helt+ut.jpg?o=2501739&w=638&h=480&ee=

Just goes to show our variation:)

[Pallantides]

One stormy night in the year 1685, a Spanish ship became stranded on the southern shores of Norway, the ship was beyond repair so the survivors decided to make it further inland and look for aid, after walking for days they came upon a small isolated village, there day discovered the most beautiful women they had ever laid eyes upon, so during the night they ambushed the village and killed off all the men, after the carnage was over and all the local men were dead, the Spaniards claimed the women as their own wives and settled down into the roles of the vanquished local men.

[gold_fenix]

vestiges of ancient British Isles population in Norway or native people of Skandinavia before indoeuropean and neolithic invasion

[Pallantides]

I prefer my story, it's more dramatic and exotic that way.

[evon]

I prefer my story, it's more dramatic and exotic that way.

I prefer aliens, we must have some UFO's!

[Graham]

Could she pass in Spain or Portugal?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/webimage/1.3803928.1316773102!image/3401107800.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/3401107800.jpghttp://i.ytimg.com/vi/7R3FAz5s-U8/0.jpghttp://content9.flixster.com/photo/12/85/98/12859879_ori.jpg

[Lábaru]

I prefer my story, it's more dramatic and exotic that way.

xD In Spain there are the same absurd legends about blond Vikings with beached ships, giving rise to Nordic-looking people.

[Bridie]

One stormy night in the year 1685, a Spanish ship became stranded on the southern shores of Norway, the ship was beyond repair so the survivors decided to make it further inland and look for aid, after walking for days they came upon a small isolated village, there day discovered the most beautiful women they had ever laid eyes upon, so during the night they ambushed the village and killed off all the men, after the carnage was over and all the local men were dead, the Spaniards claimed the women as their own wives and settled down into the roles of the vanquished local men.

Now, I think you have what the Irish call "the gift of the gab" sunshine!! :D

[Damião de Góis]

Could she pass in Spain or Portugal?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/webimage/1.3803928.1316773102!image/3401107800.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/3401107800.jpghttp://i.ytimg.com/vi/7R3FAz5s-U8/0.jpghttp://content9.flixster.com/photo/12/85/98/12859879_ori.jpg

Yes, especially on pics 1 and 2. If she was brown eyed she would almost be typical looking. Blue eyes would make her be less common, but still passable. At least here.

Although in general, women here have more wider jaws than your example:

http://imgs.cmjornal.xl.pt/imgs/share/2011-01-18133035_CA967162-B341-4FEB-88DD-FECB0766BF67$$738d42d9-134c-4fbe-a85a-da00e83fdc20$$3b4fcf05-00e1-4618-ba61-03e38e74858d$$img_carrouselTopHomepage$$pt$$1.jpg

[Hesperión]

One stormy night in the year 1685, a Spanish ship became stranded on the southern shores of Norway, the ship was beyond repair so the survivors decided to make it further inland and look for aid, after walking for days they came upon a small isolated village, there day discovered the most beautiful women they had ever laid eyes upon, so during the night they ambushed the village and killed off all the men, after the carnage was over and all the local men were dead, the Spaniards claimed the women as their own wives and settled down into the roles of the vanquished local men.Recent research shows that when the women saw the Spaniards, they killed their husbands and kidnapped the poor Spanish sailors.

[gold_fenix]

Recent research shows that when the women saw the Spaniards, they killed their husbands and kidnapped the poor Spanish sailors.

and this is the true origin of amazonas and valkyrias hahaha

[Hussar]

excuse me guys....according to the last genetic reports and discoveries, isn't the atlantic component (K-12 for example), PRE-celtic ?

[Damião de Góis]

excuse me guys....according to the last genetic reports and discoveries, isn't the atlantic component (K-12 for example), PRE-celtic ?

Probably, but that's impossible to know. If Celts were tested they probably wouldn't be 100% "atlantic" either, and celts from diferent parts of Europe would get different results.

[Bridie]

excuse me guys....according to the last genetic reports and discoveries, isn't the atlantic component (K-12 for example), PRE-celtic ?

Sorry for my ignorance, but I know next to nothing about recent genetic studies... how is it possible to determine that whatever this identified "atlantic component" is, is pre-Celtic or Celtic since the Celts would have mixed to indistinction with pre-Celtic peoples over time?

[Albion]

One stormy night in the year 1685, a Spanish ship became stranded on the southern shores of Norway, the ship was beyond repair so the survivors decided to make it further inland and look for aid, after walking for days they came upon a small isolated village, there day discovered the most beautiful women they had ever laid eyes upon, so during the night they ambushed the village and killed off all the men, after the carnage was over and all the local men were dead, the Spaniards claimed the women as their own wives and settled down into the roles of the vanquished local men.

You've been reading theories about the Black Irish and Spanish Armada I see. :D

[Ibericus]

excuse me guys....according to the last genetic reports and discoveries, isn't the atlantic component (K-12 for example), PRE-celtic ?
Celts are not a component by itself, but a mix of different components, mix of neolithic and palaelithic, just like every other european..

[Anthropologique]

In the Low Countries, yes. But much of it were a western people later invaded by Germanic peoples.

I have some doubts about the incidence of red hair in Scandinavia, especially in Sweden. It's probably more common in Norway than in Sweden though. Considering that the Germanics arrived from the east, it should give a clue.

Thus if we went by what Tacitus wrote, we'd be assuming that red hair is a Germanic characteristic, and therefore Germans and Austrians would be little to nothing Germanic.

Either that, or Tacitus was drinking wine from Hispania without watering it down (which the Romans always did with the wine from Hispania) at the time of writing.

I still go back to mistaking the many chestnut (blond, brown, red mix) types found in the Atlantic facade for "pure" red. Ancient scholars used mainly anecdotal accounts. The "red" category encompasses all reds, including auburn shades. Therefore, when you read that Scotland has ~ 15% red hair, a good deal of it is actually auburn... Ireland runs ~13-14%, Wales ~11%, Brittany ~ 9%, Spain ~ 6% and Portugal ~ 5%.

[Jackson]

I think we probably put too much emphasis a lot of the time on the looks and genetics of Germanic vs Celtic etc...Celtic in Central Europe doesn't mean the same as Celtic in northern, western or south-western Europe. It's more a case of what genetics the people that became Celtic or Germanic speaking carried.

It's not impossible that people of the same/similar genetic stock could end up speaking different languages, or that they were part of some pre-Celtic, pre-Germanic stock that was later divided by linguistic and cultural divisions. Just guess you have to take into account those possibilities.

But in any case the story of the population of the Isles is primarily one from France, the Rhine area and Scandinavia. It seems this link along the Atlantic is primarily due to this ancient connection vie western and central Europe, and also in a lesser degree to movement up and down the Atlantic.

I personally don't think you can associate one ethnic stock with Celtic peoples. But then the question always arises - Who was Celt and who was Celticised? I must admit the whole Tartessian/Celtic from the West idea holds some weight with this - Although i need to read up on this more. :)

[Anthropologique]

I think we probably put too much emphasis a lot of the time on the looks and genetics of Germanic vs Celtic etc...Celtic in Central Europe doesn't mean the same as Celtic in northern, western or south-western Europe. It's more a case of what genetics the people that became Celtic or Germanic speaking carried.

It's not impossible that people of the same/similar genetic stock could end up speaking different languages, or that they were part of some pre-Celtic, pre-Germanic stock that was later divided by linguistic and cultural divisions. Just guess you have to take into account those possibilities.

But in any case the story of the population of the Isles is primarily one from France, the Rhine area and Scandinavia. It seems this link along the Atlantic is primarily due to this ancient connection vie western and central Europe, and also in a lesser degree to movement up and down the Atlantic.

I personally don't think you can associate one ethnic stock with Celtic peoples. But then the question always arises - Who was Celt and who was Celticised? I must admit the whole Tartessian/Celtic from the West idea holds some weight with this - Although i need to read up on this more. :)

Celtic is primarily a cultural category, not racial. Celtic tribes were likely diverse Western European types. The "Celts were mainly red-haired" notion is mythical...essentially bunkum. We are far away from establishing factually correct Celtic genetics / phenotypes, if there is even such a thing.

[Anthropologique]

One stormy night in the year 1685, a Spanish ship became stranded on the southern shores of Norway, the ship was beyond repair so the survivors decided to make it further inland and look for aid, after walking for days they came upon a small isolated village, there day discovered the most beautiful women they had ever laid eyes upon, so during the night they ambushed the village and killed off all the men, after the carnage was over and all the local men were dead, the Spaniards claimed the women as their own wives and settled down into the roles of the vanquished local men.

LOL! Nice one!

[Hesperión]

I still go back to mistaking the many chestnut (blond, brown, red mix) types found in the Atlantic facade for "pure" red. Ancient scholars used mainly anecdotal accounts. The "red" category encompasses all reds, including auburn shades. Therefore, when you read that Scotland has ~ 15% red hair, a good deal of it is actually auburn... Ireland runs ~13-14%, Wales ~11%, Brittany ~ 9%, Spain ~ 6% and Portugal ~ 5%.Interestingly enough, the word for blonde in Castilian is rubio, which derives from Latin rubeus, which means red or reddish.

The same in Catalan, the word is ros, which derives from Latin russus, which in turn means red.

The word blondo/a exists in Castilian (and in Catalan) but it's largely unknown and unused, and it derives from French blonde.

[Corvus]

It's not that one dimensional though. The British and Irish show closer genetic distances to Austrians than to Iberians so the continuum running from Central Europe through to the North West is just as important. Populations are largely related to each other as a reflection of their geographical distances but the British Isles as a whole pulls more to the Germanic areas than would otherwise be expected.

True, Celtic component in Austrians and Central Europeans in general is clearly underrated

Source: http://www.americeltic.net/continentalcelts.html

Celtic Genetics
Celts share a very high percentage of their genes with other European and West Asian groups, right across Europe from the British isles. There are very few differences in most European peoples. Recent genetic studies show that most Austrians and Hungarians share genetic links going back tens of thousands of years. The genetic maps drawn up between 2002 and 2005, in summaries of dozens of studies, show that the Austrians, Croatians, Hungarians, Germans and Ukranians were so similar to one another that there was no need to indicate more than one of them in the pie charts with the maps. They show amazing similarities to most of northern Europe, peoples of the British isles, and yet some peoples of central and west Asia as well. The first major differences seen in genetic compositions are in the extreme northwestern islands of Britain, the countries of Italy, Greece, and Romania who have links to north Africa, and as an increase in Asian genetic variants beginning in Kyrgyzstan and moving eastward and southward.

Summary
So who are the descendants of the Continental European Celts and that have retained the most Celtic cultural traditions? They are the Germans, the Dutch, the Swiss, the Austrians, the Scandinavian countries, southwestern France and Brittany, northern Italy, Croatia, Hungary, most of Spain, especially Galicia, Asturias and Leon. That's all of Central Europe and most of Northern Europe, and part of Western Europe, in addition to Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, and the Isle of Man. Julius Caesar would be amazed. With the exception of France and Roman Catholicism, over 2,000 years, Europe has pretty much gone right back to the way it was when Julius Caesar first decided that conquering Gaul and destroying the Celtic culture in Iberia and Gaul was the way to become emperor of Rome. The Celts have prevailed after all.

[Hussar]

In that case i'm the perfect case to study, in the context of genetic results vs looks since i've posted both on this forum. Let's recall how you classified me as:



And this is my k12b (any run would do, but you mentioned specifically this one):

Atlantic_Med 44.7%
North European 24%
Caucasus 13.6%
Northwest African 8.7%
Gedrosia 6.2
East African 1.8%
Southwest Asian 0.7%
South Asian 0.3%
East Asian 0%
Siberian 0%
Southeast Asian 0%
Sub Saharan 0%

Now, if Northwest African is affecting my phenotype then another thing must be counterbalancing it, unless you think north africans are Atlantic-CM with no Med.
Since Atlantic-Med and North European don't count because they are too old, then i would say that my non existent Southwest Asian and my not so high Caucasus are responsible.


Interesting.

In the same test, i share similar numbers, at least in the first 2 greater components.


Atlantic_med : 42.54

north european : 23.75


But my "caucasus" is significantly greater, while north-westen african almost absent

[Damião de Góis]

Interesting.

In the same test, i share similar numbers, at least in the first 2 greater components.


Atlantic_med : 42.54

north european : 23.75


But my "caucasus" is significantly greater, while north-westen african almost absent

Yes, that is the reason why north italians and iberians don't cluster far from each other. The numbers are similar, not just for the two of us.

[Anthropologique]

SSA and most North African input is 8000-10000 years old and traceable to the last polar retraction and, especially and logically, to the formation of the Sahara desert. That’s where and when they came from.

It has nothing or very very little to do with slaves and moorish military invasions.

Old Joe ostensibly has no knowledge of substantial recent Germanic input (Visigoths, Suevi, Vandals, Asding Vandals) or the Viking settlements in coastal Galicia and N. Portugal... Wonder if late 300 AD to 700 AD is recent enough for him? In the case of the Vikings, approximately 900 AD to 1100 AD. Foolish...:picard1:

[Catrau]

Really? http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/exploring-history-archaeology-new.html



It just seems a bit too coincidental.

Yes I mean it.

I give you another variable: do you know how it is distibuted the population in Portugal?

Did you know that this region of the country accounts for as much as 4% of the total population? So even if those maternal lineages had 50% importance, in the overal population that wouldn't mean nothing. Maybe there are more true Africans living in the outskirts of Lisbon right now.

[Lábaru]

At the request of op, I'll clean the off topic post, please continue with the legitimate topic.

[Pallantides]

'North European Mesolithic' component from the MDLP project, which is the two La Braña samples:
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p515/aphetor/mdlpmesolithic.jpg

Braña1 80.9%
Braña 2 80%
Saami 76.4%

[Graham]

'North European Mesolithic' component from the MDLP project, which is the two La Braña samples:


Think I'll make a comparative table, of Apricity members on that. Like with the Eurogenes one.

[Anthropologique]

Dear Moderator: Please delete Mr. Capelli's comments as the large majority do not pertain to the principle subject matter being discussed. Not only that, he's posting distorted information, again.:picard1:

[Anthropologique]

At the request of op, I'll clean the off topic post, please continue with the legitimate topic.

Thank you. Enough lies and distortion. This is not a platform for people with racial issues.

[Pallantides]

Trygve Nygaard, football player from Haugesund in Rogaland, Western Norway
http://fotball.adressa.no/multimedia/spillere/Nygaard_2_b.jpg
http://gfx.nrk.no/G13CEkufC_MrEAGnMrbdIQOvDzyQxMVerD_VqMszxSlg.jpg
http://karmsundavis.no/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/trygve_nygaard.jpg
http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2007/11/05/1194270141822_800.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TMmCA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Kij8q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ekZFg.jpg

[Anthropologique]

Trygve Nygaard, football player from Haugesund in Rogaland, Western Norway
http://fotball.adressa.no/multimedia/spillere/Nygaard_2_b.jpg
http://gfx.nrk.no/G13CEkufC_MrEAGnMrbdIQOvDzyQxMVerD_VqMszxSlg.jpg
http://karmsundavis.no/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/trygve_nygaard.jpg
http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2007/11/05/1194270141822_800.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TMmCA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Kij8q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ekZFg.jpg

All very good examples of AF people you have posted. :thumb001:

[Anthropologique]

Musique de Bretagne...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgWcNwzucaM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Fejzo7KWc

[Lábaru]

Atlanto/Cromag I guess that he can pass in the entire Atlantic coast.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EzSXDcMhxvY/SwGD4a76erI/AAAAAAAACwM/S5UKSumPwu0/s1600/0910_BAS_FERNANDO+SAN+EMETERIO_1.jpg

[Anthropologique]

Musica de Gallaecia (Galiza, N. Portugal, W. Asturias). Cantabrian Celtic is similar. Carlos Nunez, Aires de Pontevedra.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6jXMBNh_7g

[Anthropologique]

Atlanto/Cromag I guess that he can pass in the entire Atlantic coast.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EzSXDcMhxvY/SwGD4a76erI/AAAAAAAACwM/S5UKSumPwu0/s1600/0910_BAS_FERNANDO+SAN+EMETERIO_1.jpg

Without question...

[Anthropologique]

Welsh stick dancing. Ancient Celtic, also known as "Morris Dancing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctYuGYwTqZg

[le penalty]

http://youtu.be/3CwJiM9WJ0M
Music about brittany :D

[Anthropologique]

http://youtu.be/3CwJiM9WJ0M
Music about brittany :D

Doesn't count!!! :)

[Catrau]

Gaita de Foles Portuguesa
Portuguese Bagpipe

5QMRFIGu2ps

[Anthropologique]

Ode to Gallaeica - Luar na Lubre Celtic folk band (Galiza). Geographically, Gallaecia is the largest extant Celtic land today, followed by Scotland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K-pKLCRxbo

[Anthropologique]

Bump...

[Anthropologique]

Terrific Celtic folk rock band from Portugal - Dazkarieh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk4HK6f3ibk

[Anthropologique]

Musique "folk" Celtique de Bretagne

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTCL28bK6sU

[Catrau]

From my hometown:

Quinta do Bill

VPiW_K62Mzg

[Catrau]

Cornalusa

mZcGmT5DKQw

[Anthropologique]

I think he means the 'Western European' autosomal components and significant amounts of R1b. The autosomal component is a major one in both NW Europe and SW Europe, but yes in terms of overall genetics, NW Europeans are more similar to other NW Europeans than to SW Europeans. But still there is a shared history somewhere along the line, which i think is important to investigate anyway.

As regards Tartessian as Celtic, you may wish to reference Koch, Tartessian (2010) and Tartessian 2 (2011). Also, Cunliff's more recent publications and Cunliff and Koch, Celtic from the West... (2010), as a start.

[Jackson]

As regards Tartessian as Celtic, you may wish to reference Koch, Tartessian (2010) and Tartessian 2 (2011). Also, Cunliff's more recent publications and Cunliff and Koch, Celtic from the West... (2010), as a start.

Thanks, i will make a note to pick them up when i have the chance.

[Pallantides]

I have as high a West European score as many Brits and Irish, but I'm not very "Atlantic facaded" so I assume the higher Med component and maybe lack of East European is important as well.

67.9% West European (Irish average 67.9%, British average 65.4%)
13.9% East European (Irish average 2.5%, British average 2.6%)
12.9% Mediterranean (Irish average 20.8%, British average 22.8%)

[Anthropologique]

Scottish dancing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1CMN-PTYWw

[Anthropologique]

Carlos Nunez - Gallaecian Celtic music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ntfP5mvYtU

[Catrau]

Welsh stick dancing. Ancient Celtic, also known as "Morris Dancing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctYuGYwTqZg

That's funny because I hadn't seen those Welsh before. That’s an incredible connection…
Here is our multi millennial stick dance by the Miranda Plateau Pauliteiros (Pau=Stick),they even dress the same way. That's remarkable because this region of Portugal was the most remote one, they were blocked from outside by the mountains, they even have the second official language of Portugal, the Mirandese. It's a Leonese family language. They are all extint except the Mirandese. This shows how much they were isolated for centuries.. and here is the same dance in Wales... blow me down!!

DoQuYePHF0c

I absolutely love this.

[Anthropologique]

That's funny because I hadn't seen those Welsh before. That’s an incredible connection…
Here is our multi millennial stick dance by the Miranda Plateau Pauliteiros (Pau=Stick),they even dress the same way. That's remarkable because this region of Portugal was the most remote one, they were blocked from outside by the mountains, they even have the second official language of Portugal, the Mirandese. It's a Leonese family language. They are all extint except the Mirandese. This shows how much they were isolated for centuries.. and here is the same dance in Wales... blow me down!!

DoQuYePHF0c

I absolutely love this.

Yep, was waiting for someone to mention the Pauliteiros (as).:)

[Damião de Góis]

I have as high a West European score as many Brits and Irish, but I'm not very "Atlantic facaded" so I assume the higher Med component and maybe lack of East European is important as well.

67.9% West European (Irish average 67.9%, British average 65.4%)
13.9% East European (Irish average 2.5%, British average 2.6%)
12.9% Mediterranean (Irish average 20.8%, British average 22.8%)

If the base of comparison are British and Irish then i'm not "Atlantic facaded" either.

[Catrau]

Yep, was waiting for someone to mention the Pauliteiros (as).:)

I've been looking at some videos of the Morris dancers. The one that you've posted, although the music isn't the same at all, the cloths and hats are very similar. But other groups are quite different. It seems that the Pauliteiros are more normalized. Many little details including the colors have some kind of meaning. A curious and not yet regulated curiosity was the appearance of feminine groups lately. Yes the tradition is stronger than ever.

There is also the so called "spear dance", especially in the Balkans but they usually use real spears, it's a much longer dance and seem to be physically very demanding, they have to reduce rhythm once in a while and just walk.

I kind of prefer the Pauliteiros, I'm used to that typically Portuguese drum and bagpipes sound, the choreography is completely different from all the others but that's just personal thing.

Girls:
FBswP1RQSe4

[Graham]

I have as high a West European score as many Brits and Irish, but I'm not very "Atlantic facaded" so I assume the higher Med component and maybe lack of East European is important as well.

67.9% West European (Irish average 67.9%, British average 65.4%)
13.9% East European (Irish average 2.5%, British average 2.6%)
12.9% Mediterranean (Irish average 20.8%, British average 22.8%)

I added up peoples Atlantic + West Med Scores on Eurogenes EUtest. You're high up. :)

48.14% Ibericus
47.04% Atlantic Islander
45.59% Alex Delarge
41.77% Jackson Paternal Grandmother
38.24% Graham
37.27% Jackson Paternal Grandfather
37.20% Jackson Dad
36.74% Jackson Maternal Aunt
36.71% Pallantides
35.22% Jackson
34.99% Jackson Mum
31.32% Sicilianu101
30.35% Noricum
28.80% Jockman
27.60% Vojnik
27.07% FairyPrincess
27.04% Mark
17.64% Annihilus
11.62% Orangepulp

[Ibericus]

I added up peoples Atlantic + West Med Scores on Eurogenes EUtest. You're high up. :)

47.04% Atlantic Islander
45.59% Alex Delarge
41.77% Jackson Paternal Grandmother
38.24% Graham
32.27% Jackson Paternal Grandfather
37.20% Jackson Dad
36.74% Jackson Maternal Aunt
36.71% Pallantides
35.22% Jackson
34.99% Jackson Mum
31.32% Sicilianu101
30.35% Noricum
28.80% Jockman
27.60% Vojnik
27.07% FairyPrincess
27.04% Mark
17.64% Annihilus
11.62% Orangepulp

i win :), i score 48.14 % :

West-Med : 22.50%
Atlantic : 25.64%

[Graham]

i win :), i score 48.14 % :

West-Med : 22.50%
Atlantic : 25.64%

Of course. Let me edit my post. :P

Can you post your results here, so I can add you in the table? :)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70027

[Albion]

I added up peoples Atlantic + West Med Scores on Eurogenes EUtest. You're high up. :)

47.04% Atlantic Islander
45.59% Alex Delarge
41.77% Jackson Paternal Grandmother
38.24% Graham
32.27% Jackson Paternal Grandfather
37.20% Jackson Dad
36.74% Jackson Maternal Aunt
36.71% Pallantides
35.22% Jackson
34.99% Jackson Mum
31.32% Sicilianu101
30.35% Noricum
28.80% Jockman
27.60% Vojnik
27.07% FairyPrincess
27.04% Mark
17.64% Annihilus
11.62% Orangepulp

I wonder what I'll score.

[Catrau]

In the 1980's there was this new trend in the Portuguese pop music that also influenced a kind of local pop new wave and the main trend was this Atlantic ancestry. It wasn't seen that way but, IMO, that's what it was in fact. By then it only assumed a root related trend.

One of the personalities of that mainstream that we still love today was Júlio Pereira. He did immense research on Portuguese roots and pop music, resurrected instruments, made huge use of the Cavaquinho (made famous as Ukulele in Hawaii) and often mixed it with those days synthesizers and modern instruments but all the basis was purely pop/traditional.

Here's a little presentation for Júlio Pereira, he is still a big one on the traditional/pop scene:
9IIiNAW7Rng

Maybe one of his most well-known hits "Celtíbera" I would always preferred the real bagpipe instead of it's synthetized sound but in those days it was trendy..

U6Z8nMnwhLM

A newer one, more introspective.
Mi97EHFFCKg

[Graham]

I wonder what I'll score.

If you're more West Coast British/Irish You'll score higher than Jackson & I.

My results are very Germanic, with North Central European.

I'll add you in the wee group, when you have the results. :)

[Catrau]

Hugely popular on the 1980's were Sétima Legião.
Their music never stop interesting the following generations, it became kind of timeless. They made the same kind of research as Julio Pereira but they got a much broader audience. They made extensive use of Bagpipes and adapted popular rhythms for electric guitar, bass and keyboards. In the end the secret is about harmonize old and new.

rfXMsx4HiBE

[Anthropologique]

Hugely popular on the 1980's were Sétima Legião.
Their music never stop interesting the following generations, it became kind of timeless. They made the same kind of research as Julio Pereira but they got a much broader audience. They made extensive use of Bagpipes and adapted popular rhythms for electric guitar, bass and keyboards. In the end the secret is about harmonize old and new.

rfXMsx4HiBE

Very nice music.

[Jackson]

I added up peoples Atlantic + West Med Scores on Eurogenes EUtest. You're high up. :)

48.14% Ibericus
47.04% Atlantic Islander
45.59% Alex Delarge
41.77% Jackson Paternal Grandmother
38.24% Graham
32.27% Jackson Paternal Grandfather
37.20% Jackson Dad
36.74% Jackson Maternal Aunt
36.71% Pallantides
35.22% Jackson
34.99% Jackson Mum
31.32% Sicilianu101
30.35% Noricum
28.80% Jockman
27.60% Vojnik
27.07% FairyPrincess
27.04% Mark
17.64% Annihilus
11.62% Orangepulp

Is that meant to be 37.27?

[Jackson]

If you're more West Coast British/Irish You'll score higher than Jackson & I.

My results are very Germanic, with North Central European.

I'll add you in the wee group, when you have the results. :)

This should be quite correct actually. My Grandmother is a bit south-west of the average on almost all tests and she has the highest out of northern European members here. :)

[Graham]

Is that meant to be 37.27?

Haha Aye, yes.

[archangel]

before the indo european invasion ,there were some pre invasion people such as picts etc...i would like to know what language they spoke in that time

[Albion]

before the indo european invasion ,there were some pre invasion people such as picts etc...i would like to know what language they spoke in that time

Vasconic if you believe the theory, related to Basque.



A related thread, (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28811&page=18) just to balance this one out a bit.

[Jackson]

Vasconic if you believe the theory, related to Basque.



A related thread, (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28811&page=18) just to balance this one out a bit.

The impression I get from reading threads on another forum, by people who know a lot more about it than I, is that there are a couple of place-names that aren't clearly P or Q Celtic - So while the official line is that they were a Brythonic speaking peoples, it seems this other line of thought is worth looking at.

[Catrau]

Vasconic if you believe the theory, related to Basque.



A related thread, (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28811&page=18) just to balance this one out a bit.

:)
It looks like we don't see those "adult" discussions here anymore, it shifted to: "Does size matters??"

[Anthropologique]

:)
It looks like we don't see those "adult" discussions here anymore, it shifted to: "Does size matters??"

You can blame that mainly on jejune, racially insecure charlatans, with a severely twisted perspective on racial realities. I'm sure we all know who they are...

[Atlantic Islander]

i win :), i score 48.14 % :

West-Med : 22.50%
Atlantic : 25.64%

A 0.55% difference. :P

[Albion]

The impression I get from reading threads on another forum, by people who know a lot more about it than I, is that there are a couple of place-names that aren't clearly P or Q Celtic - So while the official line is that they were a Brythonic speaking peoples, it seems this other line of thought is worth looking at.

I like Vasconic as a theory, but a few river names isn't too much to go on. Apparently Celtic and Germanic have some sort of non-IE influence, although people seem to be labeling these increasingly as their own developments now.


:)
It looks like we don't see those "adult" discussions here anymore, it shifted to: "Does size matters??"

Yes, they're rarer than they once were.

[Hesperión]

I like Vasconic as a theoryI don't understand the insistance in calling it "Vasconic". If something, it would be related to Aquitanian. Basque is a split off of Aquitanian.

[Albion]

I don't understand the insistance in calling it "Vasconic". If something, it would be related to Aquitanian. Basque is a split off of Aquitanian.

Theo Venneman, the guy that invented the theory came up with the name.

[Anthropologique]

Musique Gascon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy3uF3yKJO4

[Grace O'Malley]

Musique Gascon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy3uF3yKJO4

That is so like Irish music even the dancing is the same. I'll have to try and find examples.

[Grace O'Malley]

This is not exactly what I mean but I'll keep looking

Vj13osgy2M0
crvlEONFO9Q

Here's Davy Spillane playing on the uilleann pipes
Mwxga8udIio

Here is Kate Bush singing in Irish Mna Na H'Eireann in English Women of Ireland

VpMGWOAAKs4

[Catrau]

The closest we have to that Ceili Dance in our folk is called Fandango and it's origin is Galicia but evolved here in a slightly different way.

In red and green cloths are the “Campinos”, they're a kind of cowboys in this folk region, in brown the landlord (shoul have been using a wide brim hat instead of the less formal cap) and in grey cloths is the taskmaster. It's a male dance, women watch. This dance was a show of gallantry and seduction for the women. Nowadays, this folk is typical of a region some 50-70 km north of Lisbon.

There aren't violins or bag pipes, the music is rather played with some popular instruments made out of wooden sticks, jugs, triangles etc but the core is the concertina (we also called it that way where I live) also known as acordeão (slightly diffrent).

Here's a video (small intro in PT):


9omT1Ox4zJs

[Anthropologique]

Finally, a thread with consistently intelligent contributions and discussion. Long live the Atlantic facade peoples and cultures, and may Atlantic Celticity forever flourish. :thumb001:

[Catrau]

Here's another fandango "contribution".
The lady in the intro says more or less what I've written in the previous post and adds that it's only a sober feet dance without the jumps that were considered inappropriate back in the XIXth century. This shows a bit of our usual very low profile manners quite contradictory with the Mediterranean sort of attitude especially emphasized to an almost ridiculus record by the Hollydesque view of the southern Europe, especially of southern Italians.

This region of Portugal is called Ribatejo and it's capital is the city of Santarém, known until mid VIIth century as Scalabis. It's in the lower part of Central Portugal, arround the fertile banks of the last 70-80 km of the Tagus river.

RpqcZHi8Si4

[Kazuma]

Finally, a thread with consistently intelligent contributions and discussion. Long live the Atlantic facade peoples and cultures, and may Atlantic Celticity forever flourish. :thumb001:

:thumb001::thumb001:

[Grace O'Malley]

Sinéad O'Connor singing a traditional Irish song called She Moved Through The Fair
F1YxHZPcMaQ

Brian Boru's March by The Chieftains
You can imagine Brian and his army on his way to fight the Vikings at the Battle of Clontarf
9h2Qmx2zp4E

[Grace O'Malley]

I thought this was a fitting contribution.

It's not traditional but it's a tribute to the legendary Irish hero called Cuchulainn (The Hound of Cullen).

The video though is mostly of Spanish scenes, Galicia in particular.
1TezgCpPuys

[Lábaru]

Poor quality, but a thread about the Atlantic facade is nothing without un puñao de tios con palus de la tierruca.
bkF52cdVjKk

[Grace O'Malley]

The music definitely has a familiarity to my ears. I would feel at home listening to a lot of this music.

[Grace O'Malley]

Dúlamán sung in Irish by Altan

9KzOyCwvQ9o

[johngaunt]

Don't understand a word of this, but its inspiring.

Nid wy'n gofyn bywyd moethus,
Aur y byd na'i berlau mân:
Gofyn wyf am galon hapus,
Calon onest, calon lân.
Calon lân yn llawn daioni,
Tecach yw na'r lili dlos:
Dim ond calon lân all ganu
Canu'r dydd a chanu'r nos.

I2HfF9AeHFU

[Graham]

Can't beat some Julie Fowlis.

Fb8AVVlAltk

[Anthropologique]

Poor quality, but a thread about the Atlantic facade is nothing without un puñao de tios con palus de la tierruca.
bkF52cdVjKk

Wonderful!!

[Anthropologique]

Don't understand a word of this, but its inspiring.

Nid wy'n gofyn bywyd moethus,
Aur y byd na'i berlau mân:
Gofyn wyf am galon hapus,
Calon onest, calon lân.
Calon lân yn llawn daioni,
Tecach yw na'r lili dlos:
Dim ond calon lân all ganu
Canu'r dydd a chanu'r nos.

I2HfF9AeHFU

Lovely!! :)

[Damião de Góis]

Since people are posting songs, i really like this one by a galician musician. The singer is portuguese and that's why the spanish sounds off, but good in my opinion:

k_wt4XlP3pU

[Catrau]

Maybe the most popular of all Portuguese popular games, it's called "Jogo da Malha" roughly translated as Disc Game. It can have two other names depending on the region "Jogo do Fito" being Fito translated as goal or aim, it is also the name of the wooden cylinder that the disc is aimed at. In some places it is also called "Chinquilho" I have no idea where that word comes from or what it means. Where I live it can be named the 3 ways depending on the village tradition. In the village where I lived most of my life we call it "Jogo do Fito" maybe the less used.

The game is about throwing a 600 g and 10,5 com metal disc to a wooden cylinder of 20 cm height and 5 cm in diameter placed at a distance between 13 and 17 m.
It is played by two teams. There are two cylinders place at those 13-17 m away and team members are placed on both ends. A wooden platform can be used to place the cylinder.

Of course the aim is to throw the disc (malha) and hit the cylinder. Wins the team that reaches first the limit of 30 points. Each hit scores 3 points and after each set of throwing, the disc closer to the cylinder scores 1 point.

It is widely played in Brazil too, although they have other variants. The only variant that I'm aware of in Portugal is one played with small discs some 5-6 cm in diameter but with a sharp edge. The cylinder is much smaller too and is always placed over a wooden platform. Distances between the two aims are smaller too. The sharp edge discs stick to the wooden platform on the fall.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Malha1_zps73fe311e.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Malha2_zps2ef96c03.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Malha3_zps09d2fdc8.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/malha4_zps1a5ab805.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/malha5_zps5d49c314.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Malha7_zps2a6bcedf.jpg

We know that this game was played in France and Italy in remote times and it's documented to be played in Portugal in a document dated 1490.

Do you have something alike where you live you "cold northerners"?? :):D

[Anthropologique]

Dúlamán sung in Irish by Altan

9KzOyCwvQ9o

Most pleasant. Thank you. :)

[Anthropologique]

Maybe the most popular of all Portuguese popular games, it's called "Jogo da Malha" roughly translated as Disc Game. It can have two other names depending on the region "Jogo do Fito" being Fito translated as goal or aim, it is also the name of the wooden cylinder that the disc is aimed at. In some places it is also called "Chinquilho" I have no idea where that word comes from or what it means. Where I live it can be named the 3 ways depending on the village tradition. In the village where I lived most of my life we call it "Jogo do Fito" maybe the less used.

The game is about throwing a 600 g and 10,5 com metal disc to a wooden cylinder of 20 cm height and 5 cm in diameter placed at a distance between 13 and 17 m.
It is played by two teams. There are two cylinders place at those 13-17 m away and team members are placed on both ends. A wooden platform can be used to place the cylinder.

Of course the aim is to throw the disc (malha) and hit the cylinder. Wins the team that reaches first the limit of 30 points. Each hit scores 3 points and after each set of throwing, the disc closer to the cylinder scores 1 point.

It is widely played in Brazil too, although they have other variants. The only variant that I'm aware of in Portugal is one played with small discs some 5-6 cm in diameter but with a sharp edge. The cylinder is much smaller too and is always placed over a wooden platform. Distances between the two aims are smaller too. The sharp edge discs stick to the wooden platform on the fall.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Malha1_zps73fe311e.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Malha2_zps2ef96c03.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Malha3_zps09d2fdc8.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/malha4_zps1a5ab805.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/malha5_zps5d49c314.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Malha7_zps2a6bcedf.jpg

We know that this game was played in France and Italy in remote times and it's documented to be played in Portugal in a document dated 1490.

Do you have something alike where you live you "cold northerners"?? :):D

Nice contribution... excellent. :)

[Anthropologique]

Traditional Basque song. Sung in both French and Spanish Basque lands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY9vyeNNvTc

[Anthropologique]

Basque phenotypes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1NnzLP5QMk

[Catrau]

Basque phenotypes.




IMO, Basques look Iberian, and hardcore Portuguese mostly look like this too but you experts may corroborate my statement. This comes from what my eyes let me see and my in loco experience.

[Anthropologique]

IMO, Basques look Iberian, and hardcore Portuguese mostly look like this too but you experts may corroborate my statement. This comes from what my eyes let me see and my in loco experience.

Going by personal experience and foundational phenotype comparatives, I would say the two rank as reasonably close to one another in appearance. However, many Basques do manifest some "rather sharp" facial structures.

Spaniards (and Basques) and Portuguese are neither northern or southern, rather, they are intermediary between the two and clearly Western Euro - akin to any number of French ethnicities.

[Anthropologique]

Musique de Bretagne - en la langue Brezoneg.

Having trouble uploading specific videos. Just Google Breton music in Breizh You Tube.

[B01AB20]

The GOD people of atlantic facade should worship, if not for it atalantic facade would be like greenland.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWiQCMCiI6k2IWdyRO8id0Bz_ZCikHY RGiF5jSGPAKUz5-LLcV


The Gulf Stream, together with its northern extension towards Europe, the North Atlantic Drift, is a powerful, warm, and swift Atlantic ocean current that originates at the tip of Florida, and follows the eastern coastlines of the United States and Newfoundland before crossing the Atlantic Ocean. The process of western intensification causes the Gulf Stream to be a northward accelerating current off the east coast of North America. At about 40°0′N 30°0′W, it splits in two, with the northern stream crossing to Northern Europe and the southern stream recirculating off West Africa. The Gulf Stream influences the climate of the east coast of North America from Florida to Newfoundland, and the west coast of Europe. Although there has been recent debate, there is consensus that the climate of Western Europe and Northern Europe is warmer than it would otherwise be due to the North Atlantic drift, one of the branches from the tail of the Gulf Stream

[Anthropologique]

Musique de Bretagne en Brezoneg

http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=QUadPgvMOpA&list=PLF64CA2F23BC1313A

[Lábaru]

The music definitely has a familiarity to my ears. I would feel at home listening to a lot of this music.

Thanks Alice, look at this video of Cantabrian lands with a beautiful "sailor song" in Spanish.

AytBLRPvPXQ

or maybe this one, with a more "Celtic" music, L'arca de Sueños.
bpfLKIV-i7g

[Anthropologique]

Gens de Bretagne:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkXBXboUjJU

[Gaijin]

Here's a Band from Madeira Island.

Gaitúlia playing at the Festival "Raizes do Atlântico". Funchal, Madeira
8ioFymnIoMk
LV2y87n1VSA

Gaitúlia playing at "Mercado Quinhentista" event. Machico, Madeira.
C8JrVqBJHjs

[Anthropologique]

Bump...

[Atlantic Islander]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWiQCMCiI6k2IWdyRO8id0Bz_ZCikHY RGiF5jSGPAKUz5-LLcV

The Gulf Stream, together with its northern extension towards Europe, the North Atlantic Drift, is a powerful, warm, and swift Atlantic ocean current that originates at the tip of Florida, and follows the eastern coastlines of the United States and Newfoundland before crossing the Atlantic Ocean. The process of western intensification causes the Gulf Stream to be a northward accelerating current off the east coast of North America. At about 40°0′N 30°0′W, it splits in two, with the northern stream crossing to Northern Europe and the southern stream recirculating off West Africa. The Gulf Stream influences the climate of the east coast of North America from Florida to Newfoundland, and the west coast of Europe. Although there has been recent debate, there is consensus that the climate of Western Europe and Northern Europe is warmer than it would otherwise be due to the North Atlantic drift, one of the branches from the tail of the Gulf Stream

This is why the Azores are so lush and green.

[Lusos]

hMqJZyeBpFs

[Lusos]

exJapum01Wo

mwGb9VNmBXY

[Catrau]

1pE0S9AYijk

D-JRPwabObw

[Atlantic Islander]

That's funny because I hadn't seen those Welsh before. That’s an incredible connection…
Here is our multi millennial stick dance by the Miranda Plateau Pauliteiros (Pau=Stick),they even dress the same way. That's remarkable because this region of Portugal was the most remote one, they were blocked from outside by the mountains, they even have the second official language of Portugal, the Mirandese. It's a Leonese family language. They are all extint except the Mirandese. This shows how much they were isolated for centuries.. and here is the same dance in Wales... blow me down!!

DoQuYePHF0c

I absolutely love this.

gz_AnwgAE-M

I think their higher than average levels of Y-DNA T is interesting.

[Lusos]

gz_AnwgAE-M

I think their higher than average levels of Y-DNA] T is interesting.

More interesting even, if we take into account that this clade entered Africa from Eurasia.

[Anthropologique]

BUMP...

[HispaniaSagrada]

Interestingly enough, the word for blonde in Castilian is rubio, which derives from Latin rubeus, which means red or reddish.

The same in Catalan, the word is ros, which derives from Latin russus, which in turn means red.

The word blondo/a exists in Castilian (and in Catalan) but it's largely unknown and unused, and it derives from French blonde.

Funny. In Portuguese ruço (ros) means blonde (or very light brown hair) but louro or loiro means blonde.

For redheads the word is ruivo (rubio).

[Albion]

So we've established that colour blindness is prevalent in Romance countries. :p

[HispaniaSagrada]

Welsh stick dancing. Ancient Celtic, also known as "Morris Dancing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctYuGYwTqZg


Portugal


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoQuYePHF0c


Spain


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mge1j9SqNHo


These are "Danca de Espadas"

[HispaniaSagrada]

I have to post this one also because it's really cool (to me anyway)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvO1Ys94WIU

[Catrau]

The Atlantic Arc Comission, a EU Institution of an historical and cultural communion for a balanced and sustainable development.
http://arcatlantique.org/index.php?act=,,,,,,,en

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/images_zps71006cdd.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/carte_136_zps47165503.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/29-10-12arc_atlantique_zpsee58f004.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Arc_2_zpsa26b4b6e.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Logo-MAIA_reference_zpsd4fd777f.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/485px-Atlantic-Europe_zps17a84172.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Europe

[Albion]

The Atlantic Arc Comission, a EU Institution of an historical and cultural communion for a balanced and sustainable development.
http://arcatlantique.org/index.php?act=,,,,,,,en

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/images_zps71006cdd.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/carte_136_zps47165503.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/29-10-12arc_atlantique_zpsee58f004.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Arc_2_zpsa26b4b6e.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Logo-MAIA_reference_zpsd4fd777f.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/485px-Atlantic-Europe_zps17a84172.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Europe

Ugh, this idea fills me with dread. The last thing we want is for peripheral areas of Western Europe to link up to other such peripheral areas economically. We need to bring the western areas of the British Isles into the NW core of Europe. The sea lanes aren't important for trade any more, these regions have nothing to offer each other apart from cultural exchange and romantic thinking.

[Catrau]

Ugh, this idea fills me with dread. The last thing we want is for peripheral areas of Western Europe to link up to other such peripheral areas economically. We need to bring the western areas of the British Isles into the NW core of Europe. The sea lanes aren't important for trade any more, these regions have nothing to offer each other apart from cultural exchange and romantic thinking.

In my opinion you are only partially correct.
This has been created for a better management of the resources this region has to offer and they are more or less the same. About 90% of world economy travels by sea, it's easy to understand that, only urgent merchandise travels by plane. In Europe due to the finest highway network in the world many merchandises travel by truck but it is much more expensive due to petrol and toll prices. And it is precisely here that we should make better use of our sea ports, opening new business opportunities something that in the current days must be optimized to the best possible extent. There are plenty of good sea port infrastructures, and yet we almost don't use them for interchange among this region. There are many millions living here. There is also a common fauna, flora and climate that need common efforts for a sustainable future, we have some skillfully managed ecosystems and I'm sure you also have. Those experiences must be shared and improved by common expertise to take the most of it in a socio-economic level. I've been in some conferences about this issue and they are always Atlantic Arc driven, it's a strong driving force already there's no romanticism about it. The Riversthrust effort to blow small dams in the creeks in the English Southwest is making trout and salmons go back to areas where they were missing for a hundred years and creating an all knew economy for fisherman and local hostels and restaurants, the amount of money it already started to drive is impressive and we are importing that experience here.
I'm not in the photo, I took it. This is a Conference organized by a local Natural Reserve of Paul do Boquilobo in the neighbor town of Torres Novas, there I met for the first time my Welsh friend Adrian Dowding.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=251580208230655&set=a.251580168230659.65663.151469084908435&type=3&theater
http://wrt.org.uk/team/adriandowding.html

You are right about romantic thinking but that is in a different dimension... the cultural and historic one but, you know, dreams are a driving force of life, they don't pay taxes and you won't go to jail because you dream. As a famous Portuguese football player said when he was the Portuguese National team manager in 1986 when he needed a win in Germany to go to the world cup: "let me dream!" and they did it, a 1-0 victory in Stuttgart and a Necker Stadium brought to silence. Dreams are a powerful driving force too.


http://youtu.be/FJ41PqG_1A0

[HispaniaSagrada]

As a famous Portuguese football player said when he was the Portuguese National team manager in 1986 when he needed a win in Germany to go to the world cup: "let me dream!" and they did it, a 1-0 victory in Stuttgart and a Necker Stadium brought to silence. Dreams are a powerful driving force too.

Then *maybe* you will like this:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL791D829EADC67E41

[Catrau]

Before I loose 50 min loking at a guy pic and listening to a radio broadcast like speech, don't you want to tell me what is this about. Is it some kind of indoctrination?:tongue

[HispaniaSagrada]

You'd have to listen to at least a couple or a few of his lectures to get the full picture. Basically he believes that the Bible is not literal but describes, through the characters, the several states people go through in their lives. When he talks about these parts it can be boring but he's fun to listen to when he explains the practical side of things.

He says that reality is just a dream, that everyone is God manifested but don't realize it. Because this is true (so he says) you have the power to have or be whatever you want but that you should anticipate the consequences. It's about using your imagination to make your desires come true. He believes literally that if you live with the feeling that you have already achieved your end and you are persistent in that belief regardless of how your surroundings might contradict your beliefs, your beliefs will solidify into reality.

I'm not necessarily a proponent of it but you did say something about dreaming.

[MelinusMargos]

Post your proof or your doubts about the existence or not of the so-called Atlantic Façade.
I'm tired of this thing in every thread, this is the thread about it.

[Damião de Góis]

Post your proof or your doubts about the existence or not of the so-called Atlantic Façade.
I'm tired of this thing in every thread, this is the thread about it.

I can post about our coast if you like, about fishing, beaches, etc.

[Lábaru]

Post your proof or your doubts about the existence or not of the so-called Atlantic Façade.
I'm tired of this thing in every thread, this is the thread about it.

We are busy right now, here in the prestigious West Atlantic facade, maybe later.

[Damião de Góis]

Ok, here is where we fish:

http://www.peprobe.com/peprobe-library/pe_explains/5116/ezz_navy.png

An old fishing boat:

http://ipt.olhares.com/data/big/460/4605806.jpg

[Anthropologique]

"Proof" of the Atlantic Facade lies in the huge amount of research conducted by archaeologists, anthropologists, social and economic historians, linguists on and on. It's existed for thousands and thousands of years.

Untermann (1987), Cunliffe (2005, 2011), Koch (2009, 2010, 2011), Karl (2010), Guerra (2011) ... I could continue for hours.

[Atlantic Islander]

OSPAR commission. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?93698-Protecting-and-conserving-the-North-East-Atlantic-and-it-s-resources)

http://www.ospar.org/welcome.asp?menu=0

[Cristiano viejo]

Interesting thread
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89676-Classify-the-coach-of-the-football-team-of-Wales-Welsh-Chris-Coleman

classify that Welsh, please.

[Anthropologique]

Some important Atlantic Facade studies:

John Henderson: Atlantic Facade Iron Age: Settlement and Identity in the First Millennium B.C. (2007).

Carrera and Morais: The Western Roman Atlantic facade: A Study of the Economy and Trade in the Mar Exterior from the Republic to the Principate (2010).

[Graham]

Some important Atlantic Facade studies:

John Henderson: Atlantic Facade Iron Age: Settlement and Identity in the First Millennium B.C. (2007).

Carrera and Morais: The Western Roman Atlantic facade: A Study of the Economy and Trade in the Mar Exterior from the Republic to the Principate (2010).

If you have the time. This website would interest you.
http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes.html

[Anthropologique]

If you have the time. This website would interest you.
http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes.html

Yes, I have most of their material. Thanks.

The University of Wisconsin offers one of the very best Celtic studies programs in the world. Much like the University of Wales.

[Anthropologique]

@Hevo

Why are you giving me thumbs down for posting academic references on the Atlantic facade? Seriously, you don't believe in the scholarship of these experts who have traced this community ("an extensive Atlantic province") back to the Bronze Age, founded on metal trading and extensive maritime socio-cultural networks, from S. Portugal to Scotland? Why?

[Anthropologique]

Another important Atlantic Facade reference:

Published by Arizona State University Anthropological ---

Gonzalez, Clark, Alvarez-Fernandez: Mesolithic of the Atlantic Facade: Proceedings of the Santander Symposium (2004).

[Anthropologique]

One more ---

I suggest the nay sayers do some serious research before drawing any conclusions. The evidence for the Atlantic facade continuum is overwhelming. Even today there exists Atlantic facade organizations such as the Atlantic Arc and any number of others that stress the socio-cultural connections between the major regions of the facade.

Bailey & Spikins, eds. Mesolithic Europe (2010).

[Albion]

One more ---

I suggest the nay sayers do some serious research before drawing any conclusions. The evidence for the Atlantic facade continuum is overwhelming. Even today there exists Atlantic facade organizations such as the Atlantic Arc and any number of others that stress the socio-cultural connections between the major regions of the facade.

Bailey & Spikins, eds. Mesolithic Europe (2010).

Atlantic arc is unheard of in Britain.

[Jackson]

Atlantic arc is unheard of in Britain.

Indeed, we have a 'Celtic Fringe' of course.

[Smaug]

Indeed, we have a 'Celtic Fringe' of course.

Or 'Celt Belt'.

[Jackson]

Or 'Celt Belt'.

That's better actually haha. I think i will use that instead. :thumb001:

[Graham]

Celtic Fringe is the main usage.

[Albion]

Atlantic Arc is an actual organization (if an unimportant one)

[Anthropologique]

RAMDOM GROUP PHOTOS OF ATLANTIC FACADE (AF) PORTUGUESE - The AF includes all Portugal, actually.

[Anthropologique]

The Atlantic Arc Commission:

http://arcatlantique.org

[Albion]

The Atlantic Arc Commission:

http://arcatlantique.org

Has anyone figured out what it does yet? Yes, it exists, but what do? It seems of little importance in any case, no one in the UK has ever heard of it.

[Graham]

What it is the Web link, Business? We do have links with the fishing industry & renewables cooperation. Like with the Norwegians.

[Damião de Góis]

It's unknown here too. I would imagine it to be some sort of trade organization but since it's non-governmental then i don't know what it does.

[Anthropologique]

Has anyone figured out what it does yet? Yes, it exists, but what do? It seems of little importance in any case, no one in the UK has ever heard of it.

The Atlantic Arc promotes Atlantic facade business interests, Atlantic culture and tourism and represents Atlantic fringe regions in Brussels, among other things.

Here is a listing of recent events sponsored by the "Arc.":

http://arcatlantique.org/index.php?act=1,5,2

[Bellbeaking]

So Celtic language and sea travel connected these populations? It should be interesting with genetics in the next few years.

The Milesians who populations Ireland in Irish mythology came from Spain. I'll have to look up some more information.



The University of Wales and University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee (google I-Celtic) have produced great - much of it ground breaking- work on Celticity. Many terrific Celtic scholars are around now-a-days, like Koch, Cunliffe, Wodtko, producing highly advanced papers regularly.

Today's Atlantic Celts are all related by a shared genetic substrta, among other things...Portugal, Spain, Ireland... to the Shetlands and Orkney. :) The Celtic cradle for we Atlantics is likely SW Spain and Portugal (or ancient Tartessia), not Central Europe (Hallstatt and La Te'ne culture).


Just.........................LOL

man this was one stupid theorum. Imaging thinking R1b Came from the south, Grace o'malley knew it was BS from the very beggining

[Dacul]

R1B-L21 came exactly from the South.
R1B-P312, which is larger branch, formed 4800 yrs ago.
Oldest R1B-L21 is found in Ireland, from 4000 yrs ago.
So , guess what, these R1B-P312 were exactly proto-Italo-Keltic speakers that migrated from somewhere South to Europe.
R1B-L21 formed even later, 2200 BC, 4200 years ago from this moment.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/

Nobody could ever prove that 4800 years the proto-Celto-Italic language was not existing.
The theory that Proto-Italo-Celtic speakers brought R1B-P312 in Europe makes a lot more sense than the "Bell Beaker theory" :) .

The earliest written evidence of already Celtic language from Britain and Ireland is from 800 BC, more than 2800 years ago.
Is quite logical that Proto-Celto-Italic did not split into Latin and Celtic languages in a few years, but in a longer period of time.


The Hallstatt Celts were other Celtic speakers, from the land of Germany and Austria.
So 4500 yrs ago, the Proto-Celto-Italic speakers came to Europe.

The BellBeaker theory - BellBeakers were a culture, not speaking common languages, there are findings related to this culture in Iberia also.
There are findings related to BellBeakers in North Africa also.
Now, Brits and Irish and North Africa, lol, really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

The Bell Beakers were also in Sicily and Sardinia :) .

[Grace O'Malley]

R1B-L21 came exactly from the South.
R1B-P312, which is larger branch, formed 4800 yrs ago.
Oldest R1B-L21 is found in Ireland, from 4000 yrs ago.
So , guess what, these R1B-P312 were exactly proto-Italo-Keltic speakers that migrated from somewhere South to Europe.
R1B-L21 formed even later, 2200 BC, 4200 years ago from this moment.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/

Nobody could ever prove that 4800 years the proto-Celto-Italic language was not existing.
The theory that Proto-Italo-Celtic speakers brought R1B-P312 in Europe makes a lot more sense than the "Bell Beaker theory" :) .

The earliest written evidence of already Celtic language from Britain and Ireland is from 800 BC, more than 2800 years ago.
Is quite logical that Proto-Celto-Italic did not split into Latin and Celtic languages in a few years, but in a longer period of time.


The Hallstatt Celts were other Celtic speakers, from the land of Germany and Austria.
So 4500 yrs ago, the Proto-Celto-Italic speakers came to Europe.

The BellBeaker theory - BellBeakers were a culture, not speaking common languages, there are findings related to this culture in Iberia also.
There are findings related to BellBeakers in North Africa also.
Now, Brits and Irish and North Africa, lol, really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

The Bell Beakers were also in Sicily and Sardinia :) .

Someone's bumping up all these old threads. :)

L21 did not come from the south. They are discussing these sort of things on Eurogenes right now and also Anthrogenica. L21 was dominant in Dutch and British Bell Beakers who were very northern autosomally. So it's obvious it did not take a southern route in Europe. Celtic and Italic split a long time ago and the R1b dominant in Italic areas is U152 and in the Insular Celtic areas is L21. DF27 and U152 are brother clades. L21 if more like a second uncle. :) Here is a good tree to illustrate.

https://images.gr-assets.com/photos/1460663756p8/1421409.jpg


The BellBeaker theory - BellBeakers were a culture, not speaking common languages, there are findings related to this culture in Iberia also.
There are findings related to BellBeakers in North Africa also.
Now, Brits and Irish and North Africa, lol, really?

That's because they aren't related. The problem is that two separate groups have been called Bell Beaker because there was some confusion in the past because of the pottery. The earlier Bell Beakers have no Steppe dna and no R1b (these were the earlier ones in Iberia and North Africa). They also have different physiology. The later ones are the Rhenish Bell Beakers who carry the Steppe component, and spread R1b. These are the ones that spread R1b and the Steppe component in the Bronze age. Completely different and unrelated people.

[Bellbeaking]

Someone's bumping up all these old threads. :)

L21 did not come from the south. They are discussing these sort of things on Eurogenes right now and also Anthrogenica. L21 was dominant in Dutch and British Bell Beakers who were very northern autosomally. So it's obvious it did not take a southern route in Europe. Celtic and Italic split a long time ago and the R1b dominant in Italic areas is U152 and in the Insular Celtic areas is L21. DF27 and U152 are brother clades. L21 if more like a second uncle. :) Here is a good tree to illustrate.

https://images.gr-assets1460663756p8/1421409.jpg



That's because they aren't related. The problem is that two separate groups have been called Bell Beaker because there was some confusion in the past because of the pottery. The earlier Bell Beakers have no Steppe dna and no R1b (these were the earlier ones in Iberia and North Africa). They also have different physiology. The later ones are the Rhenish Bell Beakers who carry the Steppe component, and spread R1b. These are the ones that spread R1b and the Steppe component in the Bronze age. Completely different and unrelated people.

why they haven't been given a new or better name I don't know. Eurogenes thinks they are a cored ware off shoot http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/dutch-beakers-like-no-other-beakers.html

[Dacul]

First, this discussion is on the ethno cultural section of the forum.
Genetics had few to none importance in determining someone ethnicity.
Second is extremely clear that Ireland and Britain are Celtic ethnicity nations.
As for the fairy tales with the Vikings that changed the ethnicity of the British or of the Irish those are just Fairy tells.
In fact is exactly reversed, British and Irish Celts gave lots of ethno-cultural influences in Norway and Denmark.
Also, Normans were no Viking ethnics but Old French Ethnics.
English is no longer a Germanic language since Normans came in England.
English has some Germanic traits but the sonority is exactly Celto-Romance.
This is why a native German or Scandinavian speaker has problems at pronouncing some English words.
The theories that genetics are determining ethnicity are present only at Scandos.
These theories are fairy tales - even if a SW Norwegian would look very close to an Irish they are quite different as ethnicity.
The French and English refinement and liking for beauty is well known in all the world.That is a Celtic ethno-cultural trait.
So from an ethno-cultural point of view Iberians,Brits,Irish,French are people that are close.
Exactly Atlantic Celtic ethnicities.

[Dacul]

A very obvious cultural difference between Irish and Brits on one side and Scandos on the other side:
Irish and Brits are very communicative and extroverted and joyfull people.
Scandos are introverted, are not communicating a lot and are somehow pessimistic.
:)
Do not think Iberians are so communicative as Irish and Brits.

[Grace O'Malley]

First, this discussion is on the ethno cultural section of the forum.
Genetics had few to none importance in determining someone ethnicity.
Second is extremely clear that Ireland and Britain are Celtic ethnicity nations.
As for the fairy tales with the Vikings that changed the ethnicity of the British or of the Irish those are just Fairy tells.
In fact is exactly reversed, British and Irish Celts gave lots of ethno-cultural influences in Norway and Denmark.
Also, Normans were no Viking ethnics but Old French Ethnics.
English is no longer a Germanic language since Normans came in England.
English has some Germanic traits but the sonority is exactly Celto-Romance.
This is why a native German or Scandinavian speaker has problems at pronouncing some English words.
The theories that genetics are determining ethnicity are present only at Scandos.
These theories are fairy tales - even if a SW Norwegian would look very close to an Irish they are quite different as ethnicity.
The French and English refinement and liking for beauty is well known in all the world.That is a Celtic ethno-cultural trait.
So from an ethno-cultural point of view Iberians,Brits,Irish,French are people that are close.
Exactly Atlantic Celtic ethnicities.

There's definitely some Scandinavian admixture in all the British Isles. The problem is defining Celtic and Germanic which is becoming very murky as far as genetics. We'll have to wait and see re Rhenish Bell Beaker being an off-shoot of Corded Ware but my feeling is that Davidski is most likely correct.

I'm not sure why you are saying it's fairy tales. It's fairly obvious looking at genetics and history. You are mixing up culture with genetics.

What I think personally and this has been my observation looking at this subject for quite a few years is that many people have preconceived ideas and are unable to set these aside.

Re your post Ireland is a Celtic nation as far as language and culture but there is no pan-Celtic culture as some people think. What people think of as Celtic these days is actually mostly Insular Celtic and unique to the people of Ireland and Britain. Regarding genetics what would you define as "Celtic" genetically? Irish, Welsh, Scots are most similar genetically to populations like the people labelled "Germanic" i.e. the English, Dutch, Scandinavians that they are even to the French. My take on this is the same as the Celtic League in that language is what defines a Celt. There is nothing else because you won't be able to say who is and isn't Celtic by looking at genetics.

Davidski has a Celtic vs Germanic plot but that really using British specific drift to separate a bit more the Insular Celts but it is not really measuring Celts unless Irish, Scots and Welsh are the only Celts.

This is the plot but it is really measuring drift. Have a look where Hallstatt is on this plot?

https://i.imgur.com/bE6rBBI.png

They've discussed this question on Anthrogenica in great detail and done all sorts of models. There are loads of threads on the topic. Everyone agrees that genetically you cannot pick apart the Insular Celts vs the Germanics. I remember years ago even when I knew very little about genetics noticing where Irish plotted. Things have not changed.

This is Ancestry latest plot.

https://www.ancestrycdn.com/dna/static/images/ethnicity/help/PCA.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

why they haven't been given a new or better name I don't know. Eurogenes thinks they are a cored ware off shoot http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/dutch-beakers-like-no-other-beakers.html

Because this is all relatively new i.e. the last 5 years. Although some people have noted the differences even years ago. They know a lot more now and have genetics to back up what a lot of people have said over they years. I'm sure they will give them different names once all this stuff filters through.

[Dacul]

Well current nations or areas that declare themselves to be Celtic and are linked to this thread:
Irish,Scots, Welsh,Cornish people from Britain and Ireland.
No idea about most English people.
I suppose most English declare themselves with Celtic ancestry, but not Celtic.
Gallicia people from NW Spain.
Brettons from Britanny,France.
These would be all the Celtic-Atlantic nations.

The Alpine Celts are different from Atlantic Celts.

Atlatntic Celts are also different from France Celts.

I made a mistake previously - think Spaniards do not consider themselves as a Celtic nation, neither people from Portugal.

[Token]

These populations are not similar at all, but there was a lot of cultural and most certainly also genetic exchange between the populations of Atlantic Europe. Cultural exchange and the close contact between Iberia and Britain after the Late Neolithic is undeniable, the genetic impact is questionable. Genetic evidence doesn't excludes the possibility of 'Milesians' coming to Ireland from Hispania and introducing Q-Celtic to the isles with negligible geneflow, by elite domination. Brits are overwhelmingly descended from the Beakers after all, who most certainly didn't spoke Celtic.

[Norb]

These populations are not similar at all, but there was a lot of cultural and most certainly also genetic exchange between the populations of Atlantic Europe. Cultural exchange and the close contact between Iberia and Britain after the Late Neolithic is undeniable, the genetic impact is questionable. Genetic evidence doesn't excludes the possibility of 'Milesians' coming to Ireland from Hispania and introducing Q-Celtic to the isles with negligible geneflow, by elite domination. Brits are overwhelmingly descended from the Beakers after all, who most certainly didn't spoke Celtic.

them Bell Beaker Brits! :mocking::mocking:

[Grace O'Malley]

These populations are not similar at all, but there was a lot of cultural and most certainly also genetic exchange between the populations of Atlantic Europe. Cultural exchange and the close contact between Iberia and Britain after the Late Neolithic is undeniable, the genetic impact is questionable. Genetic evidence doesn't excludes the possibility of 'Milesians' coming to Ireland from Hispania and introducing Q-Celtic to the isles with negligible geneflow, by elite domination. Brits are overwhelmingly descended from the Beakers after all, who most certainly didn't spoke Celtic.

I agree with most of your post Token but the Milesians is not credible and in Ireland it is acknowledged to be an invention by Medieval monks. Koch is mentioned in this thread and he has changed his views with the new genetic information and the latest I read he was of the opinion than Insular Celtic languages developed in-situ in Ireland and Britain. Here is a link to one of his lectures.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub5izFOdtDs

I know Koch gave a talk recently but I have no information on that as of yet.

I miss some of these old posters. There was some interesting discussions that people used to have here in the past.

[Token]

I agree with most of your post Token but the Milesians is not credible and in Ireland it is acknowledged to be an invention by Medieval monks. Koch is mentioned in this thread and he has changed his views with the new genetic information and the latest I read he was of the opinion than Insular Celtic languages developed in-situ in Ireland and Britain. Here is a link to one of his lectures.

I know Koch gave a talk recently but I have no information on that as of yet.

I miss some of these old posters. There was some interesting discussions that people used to have here in the past.
I watched Koch's recent talk and now he thinks that Celtic developed via contacts between Iberia and Britain during the late Beaker/Atlantic Bronze Age period. I think he is coming closer to the truth.

The Milesian legend does ring a bell to me, maybe Q-Celtic developed from this close contact between Iberia and Britain (it would need to be in a considerably later period though), or Q-Celtic originated in Western Iberia after all (in conform to the legend) and came to the British Isles later (as Edward Lhuyd hypothesized).

[Creoda]

why they haven't been given a new or better name I don't know. Eurogenes thinks they are a cored ware off shoot http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/dutch-beakers-like-no-other-beakers.html
I'm glad somebody else feels that way, calling these people Bell Beakers has never ceased to irritate me / 'trigger my autism'.

Hopefully one day we'll stop calling our ancestors Indo-Europeans as well.

[Grace O'Malley]

Well current nations or areas that declare themselves to be Celtic and are linked to this thread:
Irish,Scots, Welsh,Cornish people from Britain and Ireland.
No idea about most English people.
I suppose most English declare themselves with Celtic ancestry, but not Celtic.
Gallicia people from NW Spain.
Brettons from Britanny,France.
These would be all the Celtic-Atlantic nations.

The Alpine Celts are different from Atlantic Celts.

Atlatntic Celts are also different from France Celts.

I made a mistake previously - think Spaniards do not consider themselves as a Celtic nation, neither people from Portugal.

Well even the Celtic League is a bit pernickety about who and what they consider Celtic.

This is an interesting article about the topic.


In 1986 the Celtic league, the principal organisation of the Pan-Celtic movement, underwent a crisis on this matter (what is a Celtic nation). At the League’s annual gathering meeting in Edinburgh in October of 1986, on the single vote cast by the chairman of the session, the League accepted the principle that Galicians and Asturians of North-West Spain constituted Celtic communities. No Celtic language had been spoken in this area since the ninth century AD. This decision caused an immediate controversy for it implied that the language criterion was no longer valid. How then was a Celtic community to be defined? By race, religion, or some other outwardly identifiable form? The ensuing debate, known in the Pan Celtic movement as the “Galician Crisis”, caused the definition of a Celt to be thoroughly analyzed and assessed. The outcome of this was that the linguistic definition became firmly reinforced with the League’s 1987 annual general meeting.


https://www.transceltic.com/pan-celtic/celtic-identity-language-and-question-of-galicia

[Dacul]

Just found more info, seems Asturia, Cantabria and Northern Portugal are also claiming Celtic ethnicity.
Here is an ethnic map of Iberia from 200 BC:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

[Grace O'Malley]

Just found more info, seems Asturia, Cantabria and Northern Portugal are also claiming Celtic ethnicity.
Here is an ethnic map of Iberia from 200 BC:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitanians#/media/File%3AEthnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

That just goes to prove their is no "Celtic" genetics. As has been mentioned already in this thread there is no special connection that can be shown genetically with all these populations. What makes a population Celtic in your view?

[Token]

If Asturians and Galicians are Celts then so should be the Portuguese and all Spaniards. Going by genetic evidence, the Portuguese are merely transplanted Galicians and Southern Spaniards are indistinguishable from northerners. You either accept all or none of them.

[Vasconcelos]

Just found more info, seems Asturia, Cantabria and Northern Portugal are also claiming Celtic ethnicity.
Here is an ethnic map of Iberia from 200 BC:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitanians#/media/File%3AEthnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

I've never heard of people or regions in Portugal "claiming Celtic ethnicity" besides ignorant nutjobs. I'm pretty sure the same thing can be said for Asturias and Cantabria

[Kivan]

There is no "Atlantic facade". Irish and British are worlds apart of Iberians after all.

[Dacul]

That just goes to prove their is no "Celtic" genetics. As has been mentioned already in this thread there is no special connection that can be shown genetically with all these populations. What makes a population Celtic in your view?

Well in the first place, the languages and the cultural identity.
The Celtic languages that are still existing are these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages
So only Insular Celtic languages are still spoken.

About the Celtic ethnicities, that would be a very vast area of research.

Here it was about Atlantic Facade Europe populations, from an ethno-cultural point of view.These Atlantic Facade Europe populations, with the exception of English and Portuguesse, seems to consider themselves Celtic ethnicities.
While I have read things and communicated with English, British Celts and Irish people, I have not read things and talked with people from Spain regions of Gallicia,Asturia,Cantabria or Northern Portugal.

Already told what I have seen at British and Irish people : extroverted people, friendly and very communicative.
Also, they have a very joyful way of being / they are very optimistic.

[Dacul]

Do not ask me what the French people, except the Brittons, are considering themselves as ethnicity, because a part of France is also part of Atlantic Europe Facade.
Ask the French people, from that area, if you find any.

[Dacul]

I've never heard of people or regions in Portugal "claiming Celtic ethnicity" besides ignorant nutjobs. I'm pretty sure the same thing can be said for Asturias and Cantabria

My apologies mate, I just cited what I have found on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_nations#Other_territories
Did not want to offend you.

[Grace O'Malley]

Do not ask me what the French people, except the Brittons, are considering themselves as ethnicity, because a part of France is also part of Atlantic Europe Facade.
Ask the French people, from that area, if you find any.

It doesn't really matter what people call themselves IMO. I don't really think the Atlantic Facade is a thing other than on these forums. Well it used to be a thing but it has fallen away as people realised it was built on very whimsy matter. People have a lot of romantic notions about things that if you look deeper into them are not substantiated.

Even Insular Celts never stuck together. The Irish were Catholic and Scots were Presbyterian and Welsh Methodist or some other Protestant religion. Scots and Welsh didn't feel any Celtic camaraderie for the Irish during the past. Even when the Anglo-Saxons were invading the Irish were raiding the British coast. Scots, Welsh and Irish never came together as "Celts" to fight the English. It was the Scots that were planted in Northern Ireland for example at the expense of the Irish population. That's all water under the bridge now and history but there was never this Celtic brotherhood. Even looking at closely related populations like Britain and Ireland the Irish and Welsh are both closer genetically to the English than they are to each other.

[Cristiano viejo]

If Asturians and Galicians are Celts then so should be the Portuguese and all Spaniards. Going by genetic evidence, the Portuguese are merely transplanted Galicians and Southern Spaniards are indistinguishable from northerners. You either accept all or none of them.

Celtic music, folklore, traditions, buildings, archeological remains, cemeteries, tombs and cities and villages founded by Celts/Celtiberians can be found only in Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and Castilla y León.

[Cristiano viejo]

If Asturians and Galicians are Celts then so should be the Portuguese and all Spaniards. Going by genetic evidence, the Portuguese are merely transplanted Galicians and Southern Spaniards are indistinguishable from northerners. You either accept all or none of them.

Celtic music, folklore, dances, traditions, buildings, archeological remains, cemeteries, tombs and cities and villages founded by Celts/Celtiberians can be found only in Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and Castilla y León.

[Dacul]

There was even a documentary on BBC Scotland about the fact that Galicia from Spain has a Celtic Cultural identity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulvgVixij_I

[Vasconcelos]

Celtic music, folklore, dances, traditions, buildings, archeological remains, cemeteries, tombs and cities and villages founded by Celts/Celtiberians can be found only in Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and Castilla y León.

And Portugal, although music, dances and so on are highly debatable that have survived. What we have today probably resembles little to nothing what people did 2000 years ago - here or elsewhere. Ironically Galicia was the last place to be celticised in Iberia

[Bellbeaking]

I agree with most of your post Token but the Milesians is not credible and in Ireland it is acknowledged to be an invention by Medieval monks. Koch is mentioned in this thread and he has changed his views with the new genetic information and the latest I read he was of the opinion than Insular Celtic languages developed in-situ in Ireland and Britain. Here is a link to one of his lectures.

[vide=yoube;Ub5izFOdtDs]https://www.you.c/watch?v=Ub5izFOdtDs[/vio]

I know Koch gave a talk recently but I have no information on that as of yet.



In his recent talk he suggests something like a linguistic Atlantic Facade; perhaps you should thank the English and Scottish for forcing English upon you as its probably more fitting of our North European CWC/BBC genetic heritage ;)

[Grace O'Malley]

In his recent talk he suggests something like a linguistic Atlantic Facade; perhaps you should thank the English and Scottish for forcing English upon you as its probably more fitting of our North European CWC/BBC genetic heritage ;)

Gaelic Irish is unique to Ireland and I've always spoken English so no one forced it on me. Ireland has being majority English speaking for a few hundred years and longer in some parts. I think people should still speak Irish though just like other Europeans speak their own languages. Bell Beakers would have spoken languages closer to Celtic than English.

Here's a slide from Koch's talk with is a couple of years old now.

http://i64.tinypic.com/m8e4ud.jpg

[Dacul]

Lol Grace, just my humble opinion, do not get yourself upset, but you could try learn yer native Irish language, just for fun or curiosity or both :) .

[Imperator Biff]

In his recent talk he suggests something like a linguistic Atlantic Facade; perhaps you should thank the English and Scottish for forcing English upon you as its probably more fitting of our North European CWC/BBC genetic heritage ;)

Not sure how you came to this conclusion seeing as Irish are slightly more autosomally CWC/BBC shifted than either Scots or English? And let’s not forget English is a heavily latinised language so how on earth does that reflect “our North European CWC/BBC genetic heritage” more than Irish (which isn’t from Iberia fyi)? Regardless people need to stop conflating linguistics with genetics.

[Bellbeaking]

Not sure how you came to this conclusion seeing as Irish are slightly more autosomally CWC/BBC shifted than either Scots or English? And let’s not forget English is a heavily latinised language so how on earth does that reflect “our North European CWC/BBC genetic heritage” more than Irish (which isn’t from Iberia fyi)? Regardless people need to stop conflating linguistics with genetics.

It is still not confirmed that Celtic languages developed in-situ. Genetic evidence does not rule out some sort of central or iberian migration that installed an elite and a language, but did not change the genetics much.

[Dacul]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?197353-Italo-Celtic-Y-DNA-lineages-in-ancient-DNA

[Token]

Irish didn't developed in situ, this is a stupid idea and Koch already abandoned it long time ago.

[Imperator Biff]

Gaelic Irish is unique to Ireland and I've always spoken English so no one forced it on me. Ireland has being majority English speaking for a few hundred years and longer in some parts. I think people should still speak Irish though just like other Europeans speak their own languages. Bell Beakers would have spoken languages closer to Celtic than English.

Here's a slide from Koch's talk with is a couple of years old now.

http://i64.tinypic.com/m8e4ud.jpg

You should check out JP Mallory’s lecture at Queen’s college Belfast, it’s excellent.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Would Altantomeds count in this? Because as one I don’t feel I could say I have kinship with Irish for example

[Grace O'Malley]

You should check out JP Mallory’s lecture at Queen’s college Belfast, it’s excellent.

Thank you. I'll definitely do that. JP Mallory is a legend.