Is West Asian a European component?

[orangepulp]

I was having a discussion on one thread regarding the West Asian component and according to Alfieb the West Asian/Caucasus component is considered as a European component due to its high frequency in Southern Europe.

The West Asian component originates from the Near East and just because Southern Europeans have notable amount of West Asian genes it shouldn't be considered as European. According to Alfieb Anatolia and the Caucasus are European.


"West Asian" is Anatolian and Caucasian. Anatolia may have been the origin of all Indo-European peoples. Caucasia is still considered to be Europe.

Either way, it was politically and culturally part of Europe until you Turkmen showed up.

Which is all that matters, since the division between Eurasia is purely artificial.


Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia are all in (at least part) Europe and compete in UEFA.


If such were the case then Armenians, Turks, Assyrians, Kurds, Georgians and even Persians would be considered as Europeans.

So my question is, do you think the West Asian component is European?

[Vesuvian Sky]

From what I've been able to tell and given the findings of the aDNA Cardial Ware and LBK studies showing the Y-DNA of the males being 'G', it seems the Caucus compenent that Europeans (particularly southerners) have is derived from the wave of agro advance which appears to have begun in East Anatoila/Southern Caucuses/Mesopotamia.

Doug McDonald ascribes just about all of my Middle-Eastern to S. Caucuses.

So to answer your question its the disctincly Neolithic component to Europeans which is ultimately Near/Middle Eastern derived.

[alfieb]

I said that it's Eurasian, not simply European, nor Asian.

Greeks are 30% West Asian. Armenians are 50% West Asian. Georgians are 75% West Asian. Georgia and Armenia are neither fully Asian nor fully European.

[Sikeliot]

It's neither "European" nor "non-European" to me.

It doesn't matter to me so much where it originated but that it is an integral part of many peoples' genes, both within Europe and outside of it.

[orangepulp]

I said that it's Eurasian, not simply European, nor Asian.

Now this is just like changing the names because you may not like the way West Asian sounds. If it were a Eurasian component it would have been called Eurasian. We might as well make the Southwest Asian component Eurasian too since it is also present in Southern Europe.


Greeks are 30% West Asian. Armenians are 50% West Asian. Georgians are 75% West Asian. Georgia and Armenia are neither fully Asian nor fully European.
And the same goes with Greeks and Italians, genetically they are neither fully Asian or European. If the West Asian component were to be considered European, Europe would stretch all the way to Iran and the Levant.

[Sikeliot]

And the same goes with Greeks and Italians, genetically they are neither fully Asian or European. If the West Asian component were to be considered European, Europe would stretch all the way to Iran and the Levant.

As I said before, "European" is a social construct. We have decided collectively to draw the line for European or not, in such a way that anyone in Europe is "European" on a PCA plot (including the buffer groups like Sicilians and Greeks).. but if historically, those groups did not become part of Europe, we'd draw the line somewhere else and re-evaluate what "European" genetically means.

[orangepulp]

Mr. Pan-Asianist...You are a liar!!!
(or you don't know what you reading)

As Dienekes put it...

"No need to repeat that these prices ​​are aspects of relations between the Greeks and other populations and not necessarily mean that the Greeks are a mixture of Basque, Sardinians, West Asiats, etc. [B]Just demonstrate that there are eg greater common roots with the peoples of Asia Minor than with the Basques or with Sardinians and other Mediterranean peoples than with those of the Baltic."

http://greekgenetics.blogspot.gr/

It doesn't mean that we are SW & West Asiats and thus half "non-Europeans", it means that we just have a common origin. We the Greeks are partly Neolithic and we have came from the Near East at least 9,000-10,000 years ago, but right now we are completely Europeanized, we are not "Asiats" any more, we are Europeans. According to the way you see genetics soon you will come out with statements such as: "Half of Europe is not European".

What am I lying about that West Asian component is not European!! That means Turks, Armenians, Kurds, etc.. are all European!

Besides, it says Greeks have common roots with people of Asia Minor which basically means you have Near Eastern genes.

Also...

Here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGR2ZWRoQ0VaWTc0dlV1cHh4ZUNJR UE&pli=1#gid=24

we read that Greeks are 22,9 of West_Asian origin but instead of that you posted an other percentage which increase West_Asian origin to 37,7, so we all understand what you doing here.



Where is the link? How many Greeks took place to this research?

Globe 13 is the latest run by Dienekes, I posted the link and I am posting it again:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...E&pli=1#gid=24

19 Greeks participated.


So according to you all Europeans are non-Europeans as they came ALL OF THEM outside Europe.

No, I didn't say this. I said that certain Southern Euros such as Greeks and Italians have significant amount of non-European originated components thus makes them not completely European in the genetic sense.

[RussiaPrussia]

west asia is asia. Thats why the byzantine eagle had a double head

[Su]

West Asian admixture is NON-European BUT MIDDLE EASTERN admixture :wink

[Sikeliot]

What's weird for my results is I have more Southwest Asian than I should, but less West Asian.

[orangepulp]

What's weird for my results is I have more Southwest Asian than I should, but less West Asian.

Show us your results.

[Hellenas]

What am I lying about that West Asian component is not European!! That means Turks, Armenians, Kurds, etc.. are all European!

Besides, it says Greeks have common roots with people of Asia Minor which basically means you have Near Eastern genes.

Again...

It doesn't mean that we are SW & West Asiats and thus half "non-Europeans", it means that we just have a common origin. We the Greeks are partly Neolithic and we have came from the Near East at least 9,000-10,000 years ago, but right now we are completely Europeanized(became whiter, got lighter eyes and hairs-dark brown, the hairs turned straighter, ther facial characteristics refined etc), we are not "Asiats" any more, we are Europeans. According to the way you see genetics soon you will come out with statements such as: "Half of Europe is not European".


Globe 13 is the latest run by Dienekes, I posted the link and I am posting it again:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...E&pli=1#gid=24

19 Greeks participated.

Your link don't work. 19 GREEKS??? And you think this represent the Greeks?


No, I didn't say this. I said that certain Southern Euros such as Greeks and Italians have significant amount of non-European originated components thus makes them not completely European in the genetic sense.

This gene goes back 10,000 years ago, it has completely Europeanized, go educate your self. All Europeans have non-European origin but they shall remain Europeans forever, including Greeks as well.

[Sikeliot]

Show us your results.

I can't find them but I posted them somewhere. I got like 11% of each West and Southwest Asian.

[orangepulp]

Again...

It doesn't mean that we are SW & West Asiats and thus half "non-Europeans", it means that we just have a common origin. We the Greeks are partly Neolithic and we have came from the Near East at least 9,000-10,000 years ago, but right now we are completely Europeanized(became whiter, we got lighter eyes and hairs-dark brown, our hairs turned straighter, our facial characteristics refined etc), we are not "Asiats" any more, we are Europeans. According to the way you see genetics soon you will come out with statements such as: "Half of Europe is not European".



Your link don't work. 19 GREEKS??? And you think this represent the Greeks?



This gene goes back 10,000 years ago, it has completely Europeanized, go educate your self. All Europeans have non-European origin but they shall remain Europeans forever, including Greeks as well.


Here is the link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGR2ZWRoQ0VaWTc0dlV1cHh4ZUNJR UE&pli=1#gid=24

Whys shouldn't those 19 Greeks represent Greece?? There is no way a countries whole population can be tested.


I never said you are not Europeans for the hundredth time. I just said Greeks carry non European DNA and it is significant (38%). Its almost 1/3 of your ancestry.I don't care when you got this West Asian admixture point is it is present in your genes.

And please stop exaggerating your skin tone, I have seen plenty of swarthy Greeks.

[wvwvw]

And the same goes with Greeks and Italians, genetically they are neither fully Asian or European. If the West Asian component were to be considered European, Europe would stretch all the way to Iran and the Levant.

What am I lying about that West Asian component is not European!! That means Turks, Armenians, Kurds, etc.. are all European!

There are no European and non-European components :picard2: It is the combination and % of components that counts! ;)

It is the negligable % of the Northern European component in the populations you mentioned that makes them different. Not to mention their other admix that is not found in Southeast Europe. (high % Gedrosia, South-Asian, Sub-Saharan etc)

West Asian+Mediterranean+Northern European= European

West Asian+very low Med+very low NE+very high Gedrosia, Subsaharan or other admix=Not European

[orangepulp]

There are no European and non-European components :picard2: It is the combination and % of components that counts! ;)

It is the negligable % of the Northern European component in the populations you mentioned that makes them different. Not to mention their other admix that is not found in Southeast Europe. (high % Gedrosia, South-Asian, Sub-Saharan etc)

Due to the frequency of the % of a component in a population a component is named. West Asian component is called West Asian because it peaks in West Asians.

Certain % of Gedrosia is present.

[Sikeliot]

Either way to me it matters where we draw the line of "Europe" and not.. and we've drawn it, in the anthroforum community AND in real life when we think of Europe, at Sicily and Greece. Thus they are EUROPEAN, and Turks/Armenians/etc are not despite some shared genes.

[orangepulp]

West Asian+Mediterranean+Northern European= European

West Asian+very low Med+very low NE+very high Gedrosia, Subsaharan or other admix=Not European

We're not talking about dominant components or mixture of certain components resulting to European or not. We are talking about a component and that is the West Asia component.It is frequent in West Asians making it a ME component.

[Hess]

To the people who voted "no",

Does this mean that Greeks, the intellectual founders of western civilization, are Non-Europeans?

[Damião de Góis]

On that run, West Asian is highest on Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Pakistanis, and surrounding populations, so i wouldn't call it European. For that it would have to be highest somewhere in Europe

[wvwvw]

On that run, West Asian is highest on Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Pakistanis, and surrounding populations, so i wouldn't call it European. For that it would have to be highest somewhere in Europe

Wrong. West Asian peaks in Georgians i.e Northern Caucassians who incidentily look European.

Iranians, Pakistanis and Iranians have other components in high % that are not found in Europe. Pakistanis for example score 60% South Asian.

Georgians score some 60% West Asian, but they lack other components such as the Mediterannean and Northern European or they have them in negligable
percent.

[wvwvw]

Saudi Arabians have significant % of the Mediterranean component but that doesn't make them European because they have other admix which is not found in Europe.

[alfieb]

I consider Georgians to be European.

Stalin sure wasn't Asian.

[orangepulp]

Wrong. West Asian peaks in Georgians i.e Northern Caucassians who incidentily look European.

Iranians, Pakistanis and Iranians have other components in high % that are not found in Europe. Pakistanis for example score 60% South Asian.

Georgians score some 60% West Asian, but they lack other components such as the Mediterannean and Northern European or they have them in negligable
percent.

North Caucasians lack Med and Southwest Asian that are Southern components.They do score some Northern European and that's why they can be European in appearance. Anyway basing on looks alone is not a way to judge a persons race. I can show you many Euro looking Syrians and Persians, it doesn't make them European.

You must consider Southwest Asian and Gedrosia as European too since they are also present among Europeans.

[orangepulp]

Saudi Arabians have significant % of the Mediterranean component but that doesn't make them European because they have other admix which is not found in Europe.

Actually Saudis South West Asian component is found in Europe.

[Damião de Góis]

Wrong. West Asian peaks in Georgians i.e Northern Caucassians who incidentily look European.

Iranians, Pakistanis and Iranians have other components in high % that are not found in Europe. Pakistanis for example score 60% South Asian.

Georgians score some 60% West Asian, but they lack other components such as the Mediterannean and Northern European or they have them in negligable
percent.

Wrong? Georgians just happen to have the highest value, but only marginally. I'm not sure if i would consider that a peak. The Kalash or Brahui from Pakistan for example have 4% less.

As for georgians looking european i wouldn't know, never been there and i'm not familiar with georgians or azeris, armenians, etc. Also they score around 25-27% Mediterranean by the way, so i don't think it's negligable.

[Hellenas]

Whys shouldn't those 19 Greeks represent Greece?? There is no way a countries whole population can be tested.

Do you read what you write? 19 Greeks represent the total population of Greece?


I never said you are not Europeans for the hundredth time. I just said Greeks carry non European DNA and it is significant (38%). Its almost 1/3 of your ancestry.I don't care when you got this West Asian admixture point is it is present in your genes.

It's the same thing non-European and "non-European DNA", as I told you it has completely Euroreanized. Also an amount of Greeks have a haplogroup which came from north African haplogroup E, does this makes them 'Africans'?


And please stop exaggerating your skin tone, I have seen plenty of swarthy Greeks.

Yes, me too, even my self, during summer(and not only) we are often suntanned.

Aris Poulianos(Anthropologist)

"The 90% of the persons we studied have WHITE SKIN COLOR. Rarely someone meets dark skin color and even more rarely very dark skin color. Very light skin color is met more often than dark skin color."

"The origin of the Greeks", page 69, year 2001.

[orangepulp]

Do you read what you write? 19 Greeks represent the total population of Greece?

Well then how many people must be tested?! None of the reference samples are that much. Even Turks that are in the project are around 25.


It's the same thing non-European and "non-European DNA", as I told you it has completely Euroreanized. Also an amount of Greeks have a haplogroup which came from north African haplogroup E, does this makes them 'Africans'?
Some of your DNA components are not European, not all of your DNA.

I told you that haplogroups are small percentage of our ancestry, significant is autosmal DNA.

Also if a populations haplogroup is African in origin it means they come from that line of people long time ago but it doesn't mean they are African because haplogroups are not that significant.

[Annihilus]

It is a non European (Asian) caucasoid component.

[Hess]

According to the first graph, W/SW Asian admixture seems to predominate (at or over 50%) among some Greeks.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4263/admixturegreekd12.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TShZrL1hQLI/AAAAAAAADKM/f2VuiF4Fm0E/s1600/ADMIXTURE_10.png

[wvwvw]

Wrong? Georgians just happen to have the highest value, but only marginally. I'm not sure if i would consider that a peak. The Kalash or Brahui from Pakistan for example have 4% less.

As for georgians looking european i wouldn't know, never been there and i'm not familiar with georgians or azeris, armenians, etc. Also they score around 25-27% Mediterranean by the way, so i don't think it's negligable.

Georgians score 0 Med and negligible amount of Northern European:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEYl E&type=view&gid=0&f=true&colid0=1&filterstr0=Georgians&sortcolid=1&sortasc=false&rowsperpage=250

Pathans score 44% Gedrosia and only 1.1 Atlantic Med.

Comparing Georgians to Pakistanis is like comparing the French to North Africans who both share the Mediterranean component.

[Energia]

Saying West Asian component is non Euro therefore labelling any Greek, Italian or wichever European who has it as foreigner, is like saying a Turk who's born on the European side of Istanbul isn't a real Turkish...

Europe doesn't end on Gibraltar and Istanbul, these are mere geographical conventional terms, in reality you see clines and clines...
otherwise tell me why I should consider West Asian alien but haplogroup N European?while it's much more spread in Siberia than Europe?

How about call it South East Europe component instead of West Asian?:rolleyes:

[Damião de Góis]

Georgians score 0 Med and negligible amount of Northern European:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEYl E&type=view&gid=0&f=true&colid0=1&filterstr0=Georgians&sortcolid=1&sortasc=false&rowsperpage=250

Pathans score 44% Gedrosia and only 1.1 Atlantic Med.

Comparing Georgians to Pakistanis is like comparing the French to North Africans who both share the Mediterranean component.

You missed the part of my first post where i said "On that run". And on that run Georgians have around 30% mediterranean. We are talking about different runs, so it makes the discussion useless. K12b doesn't even have components called "Mediterranean" or "West Asian".

Comparing Georgians with some Pakistani populations makes total sense in this context, since both have 55-60% West Asian, "on that run". And we are discussing where this component is high, aren't we?

[Pallantides]

CGDIZoXXdg8

[wvwvw]

Do you have the spreadsheet of "that run" to check it out myself?

[Damião de Góis]

Do you have the spreadsheet of "that run" to check it out myself?

It's a few pages back, posted by orangepulp.

[Azalea]

Is the West Asian component South/Central Asian because the populations there have a high % of it too, more so than Europeans?

No.

The West Asian component peaks in West Asia and is therefore West Asian.

[Aquafina]

According to the first graph, W/SW Asian admixture seems to predominate (at or over 50%) among some Greeks.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4263/admixturegreekd12.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TShZrL1hQLI/AAAAAAAADKM/f2VuiF4Fm0E/s1600/ADMIXTURE_10.png

Holy shit. Greeks have over 50%?

[Azalea]

How about call it South East Europe component instead of West Asian?:rolleyes:

West Asia is not a part of South East Europe and the populations with the highest % of West Asian admix live in the Northern parts of West Asia, which is definitely not Southeast Europe. It would make no sence what so ever to call this component South East European. If anything, it would make more sence to call it the 'South/Central Asian' component as South/Central Asians have a higher % of it than certain South European countries.

Does that make sence to you?

[Prince Carlo]

Asian and European are only geographical terms. I only know that the West Asian component is the closest one to the Northern European one and peaks among rather depigmented people like Georgians and Abkhazians.

[Jackson]

Not at it's root, but it has a significant presence in Europe. I suppose if you had to list major European components and minor European components, you could include West Asian as a minor European component.

[safinator]

Considering it's found in Europe from Neolithic times....

[Scholarios]

Asian is just a word. If we say "West Asian" is not European, we are saying people from Barcelona, Athens, and Marseilles may not be fully European.

[Energia]

West Asia is not a part of South East Europe and the populations with the highest % of West Asian admix live in the Northern parts of West Asia, which is definitely not Southeast Europe. It would make no sence what so ever to call this component South East European. If anything, it would make more sence to call it the 'South/Central Asian' component as South/Central Asians have a higher % of it than certain South European countries.

Does that make sence to you?
If you wanna call it West Asian then how about haplogroup N?
it's more widespread in Siberia than Europe, we should call it North Asian right?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG

[Azalea]

Haplogroup N is as common in Northeast Sibera as Northeast Europe. Calling it North EuroAsian would be more logical. But in essence, it's a North Asian haplogroup yes.

However, you can not really compare these to. It's like comparing apples and pears. Haplogroup N already has a name: N. It doesn't need to be renamed as haplogroups are not named after regions, while autosomal components are. There is for example a Baltic component, North European, South Asian etc. These are all named after the regions they peak in. So why would West Asian need to be named differently? To cover up the insecurities of certain Euro nations?

[Azalea]

Asian is just a word. If we say "West Asian" is not European, we are saying people from Barcelona, Athens, and Marseilles may not be fully European.

It's all a matter of definition. If having West Asian DNA makes someone less European, then perhaps you should change the definition of European instead of changing the West Asian component. It's extremely eurocentric and egoist to name a part of DNA shared by half of the people in the world to European or something European-related because of the 'damage' it has to the pride of certain European nations/peoples. I mean, the Northern European/Baltic component is also very common in the Caucasus, Central Asia, North Asia and to a lesser extent: West Asia. But does that make those people partial European? Don't think so. Do those people ask to change the name of those components? Nope. So why can't Europeans just accept that a part of their DNA is simply more common outside of Europe?

You know, we are all people before we are Europeans, West Asians, Middle Easterns etc. I think people should understand that first. Europeans are not different human species that came from a different planet..the same goes for West Asians or whatever people where in the world. People used to move, mix and what more. We are human and we all share DNA.

[Annihilus]

Asian and European are only geographical terms. I only know that the West Asian component is the closest one to the Northern European one and peaks among rather depigmented people like Georgians and Abkhazians.

People like to split components as west and east while the reality is more north and south.

[Energia]

Haplogroup N is as common in Northeast Sibera as Northeast Europe.
But most of Europe has no N at all while as regards Asia it is present in the whole China and as southward as Vietnam, if one looks at that map he cannot avoiding to call it an Asian haplogroup.


Calling it North EuroAsian would be more logical. But in essence, it's a North Asian haplogroup yes.
Indeed.


However, you can not really compare these to. It's like comparing apples and pears. Haplogroup N already has a name: N. It doesn't need to be renamed as haplogroups are not named after regions, while autosomal components are. There is for example a Baltic component, North European, South Asian etc. These are all named after the regions they peak in. So why would West Asian need to be named differently? To cover up the insecurities of certain Euro nations?
Wich are these autosomal strings they have decided to label as "West Asian" then?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Since this has seemed to turn into a moan and groan session regarding the 'controversial' West Asian component....

My biggest problem with the 'West Asian' component is that never before in the history of mankind has anyone like a geographer or anthropologist referred to the Caucuses or even Middle East as 'West Asia'.:picard2:

I remember the first time I was telling someone about the 'West Asian' component who never had their DNA analyzed and they confirmed my notion of what I always felt most would feel the term is alluding to who have a sense of Geography: he thought I was referring to territory in present day western Kazakhstan.

[Queen B]

What is European to begin with?

[Vesuvian Sky]

What is European to begin with?

Apparently only Mesolithic-Pitted Ware culture aDNA.

Anything prior to that like the Aurignacian culture is irrelevenat.:rolleyes::picard2:

[Hellenas]

Besides, it says Greeks have common roots with people of Asia Minor which basically means you have Near Eastern genes.


It doesn't says that.

"No need to repeat that these prices ​​are aspects of relations between the Greeks and other populations and not necessarily mean that the Greeks are a mixture of Basque, Sardinians, West Asiats, etc. Just demonstrate that there are eg greater common roots with the peoples of Asia Minor than with the Basques or with Sardinians and other Mediterranean peoples than with those of the Baltic."

http://greekgenetics.blogspot.gr/

It says that we are not a mixture of West Asiats and that we just have, partly, common roots(=same place origin) with the peoples of Asia Minor.

[Hellenas]

Point is West Asian is not European.


Why is Med component native European?

http://www.yourchildlearns.com/online-atlas/continent/images/mediterranean.gif

Out European

Turks.................Mediterranean.....26,7%
Sephardic Jews....Mediterranean....40,2%
Ashkenazy Jews...Mediterranean....37,5%
Egyptians............Mediterranean....24,3%
Algerian..............Mediterranean....37,6%
Morroccans.........Mediterranean....39,3%
Morocco Jews......Mediterranean....40,8%

Into Europe

North Italian........Mediterranean....46,6%
French................Mediterranean....40,5%
Mixed Germanic....Mediterranean....33,4%
German...............Mediterranean....29,7%
Austrian..............Mediterranean....30,6%
Polish.................Mediterranean.....20,1%
Irish...................Mediterranean.....33,7%
British.................Mediterranean....34,8%
English................Mediterranean.....35,8%
British isles..........Mediterranean.....34,8%
Dutch.................Mediterranean.....33,3%
Swedish..............Mediterranean.....26,1%
Norwegian...........Mediterranean.....28,9%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGR2ZWRoQ0VaWTc0dlV1cHh4ZUNJR UE&pli=1#gid=24

Mediterranean genes extends from Turkey, Israel and north Africa up to Skandinavia, so it seems, according to your logic, that central and north Europe is full of Turkic, Israelitic & African, non-European, Mediterranean blood.

[Vojnik]

West Asia is in green.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2q0le8z.png

West Asian can be seen as a reference population with a number of different races associated with it. Could the reason Europeans score west Asian be the result of ancient tribes from Anatolia who migrated to Europe? Wasn't Anatolia (west asia) once inhabited by racially Europid people before the arrival of Turkic and Semitic tribes?

[Qemist]

West Asia is in green.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2q0le8z.png


Nice map but it has some obvious problems. Why would ethno-geographic boundaries exactly follow modern political boundaries? For example, I would call West Turkestan part of central Asia ("inner" Asia if you prefer).


West Asian can be seen as a reference population with a number of different races associated with it. Could the reason Europeans score west Asian be the result of ancient tribes from Anatolia who migrated to Europe? Wasn't Anatolia (west asia) once inhabited by racially Europid people before the arrival of Turkic and Semitic tribes?

I dunno but it wasn't it generally regarded as being Greek for over a thousand years?

[MfA_]

Genetic wise Caucasus/West Asian component is the closest or equal distant to north european than atlantic/med

Globe13/K13 fst
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=3

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Xal68HraeTs/UJBfD1d2CoI/AAAAAAAAAzU/yvTVW2WNvLQ/s1600/1_2.png

k12b fst
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=1

[Infinte]

No absolutely not, if we were to consider turks, iranians, georgians as european and white, we should also start considering assyrians, arabs and pakistanis european.

Even though, armenians seem to be very well integrated, and an interesting society.

[Jackson]

Genetic wise Caucasus/West Asian component is the closest or equal distant to north european than atlantic/med

Globe13/K13 fst
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=3

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Xal68HraeTs/UJBfD1d2CoI/AAAAAAAAAzU/yvTVW2WNvLQ/s1600/1_2.png

k12b fst
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=1

I remember this being shown before, that North European is pretty close to West Asian. Interesting stuff.

[Roy]

What are the specific markers labeled as ''West Asian''?

[MfA_]

What are the specific markers labeled as ''West Asian''?

Globe13; Caucasus+Gedrosia
K12b; Caucasus

[safinator]

Yes, it's closest to North Euro component and haves an old historical diffusion into Europe.

[Tropico]

How would one know if his/her West Asian is recent or
Neolithic?

[Ibericus]

No, it's not european. Otherwise some middle-eastern would be almost fully european genetically, and plots don't show that.

[Jackson]

Maybe we should ask if North European is a West Asian component?

[Roy]

Globe13; Caucasus+Gedrosia
K12b; Caucasus

Even without delving into used methodology ... What is Gedrosia?

[Ivan Kramskoï]

No no no and no

[Gaston]

No. But like what makes Europeans European (North European component), it's similarily East Asian admixed.

[Black Wolf]

I don't think it is as it most likely originated in West Asia or the Caucasus and probably mainly spread to Europe during the Neolithic and also at later periods in time.

[Vesuvian Sky]

West Asian as strictly a very recent Bronze age component to Europe = Dienekes wet dream/ultimate fantasy land.

[Black Wolf]

West Asian as a very recent Bronze age component to Europe = Dienekes wet dream/ultimate fantasy land.

Indeed I think it is likely that some of it spread to Europe during the Bronze Age especially into the Mediterranean region. Some could have also spread during the Neolithic as well though. Polako seems to think that it was probably the main component of the LBK Neolithic farmers of Central Europe.

[orangepulp]

Maybe Greeks West Asian could be more recent compared to other Southern Europeans because I noticed that Greeks can be very matchy with Turks and Armenians when using 23andmes compare genes tool.

[Vesuvian Sky]

...the main component of the LBK Neolithic farmers of Central Europe.

waaaaay more the reality. Also, I'd expect it in Cardial Ware and Starcevo Koros Cris culture. Its already been found in Oetzi and I bet it was waaay more among populations contemporary to him further south.

I doubt Bronze age dispersals have anything to do with 'West Asian' genes though. Its been said that Dienekes is more concerned w/ 'politics' (to sum it up generally) and that is probably tr00 regarding this matter.

edit: Bronze age dispersals for its primary or initial founding in Europe I find dubious. Just to be perfectly clear. Greek expansion during the historical era probably spread it further however. But Greeks would theoretically have initially received this component during the Starcevo-Koros Kris archaeological horizon.

[Black Wolf]

waaaaay more the reality. Also, I'd expect it in Cardial Ware and Starcevo Koros Cris culture. Its already been found in Oetzi and I bet it was waaay more among populations contemporary to him further south.

I doubt Bronze age dispersals have anything to do with 'West Asian' genes though. Its been said that Dienekes is more concerned w/ 'politics' (to sum it up generally) and that is probably tr00 regarding this matter.

edit: Bronze age dispersals for its primary on initial founding in Europe. Just to be perfectly clear. Greek expansion during the historical era probably spread it further however. But Greeks would theoretically have initially recieved this component during the Starcevo-Koros Kris archaeological horizon.

To be honest I think the Cardial Ware Neolithic groups would be more Mediterranean when it comes to these autosomal components. Of course I could be wrong though. I am in line with thinking that the maritime Neolithic groups of Europe such as Cardial Ware were more Mediterranean genetically while the inland riverine groups like the LBK were more West Asian.

[Vesuvian Sky]

To be honest I think the Cardial Ware Neolithic groups would be more Mediterranean when it comes to these autosomal components. Of course I could be wrong though. I am in line with thinking that the maritime Neolithic groups of Europe such as Cardial Ware were more Mediterranean genetically while the inland riverine groups like the LBK were more West Asian.

Both really, that is west asian and east med based on what we know of the Cardial Ware's dispersal pattern:



The earliest Impressed Ware sites, dating to 6400-6200 BC, are in Epirus and Corfu. Settlements then appear in Albania and Dalmatia on the eastern Adriatic coast dating to between 6100 and 5900 BC. The earliest date in Italy comes from Coppa Nevigata on the Adriatic coast of southern Italy, perhaps as early as 6000 cal B.C. Also during Su Carroppu civilization in Sardinia, already in its early stages (low strata into Su Coloru cave, c. 6000 BC) early examples of cardial pottery appear. Northward and westward all secure radiocarbon dates are identical to those for Iberia c. 5500 cal B.C., which indicates a rapid spread of Cardial and related cultures: 2,000 km from the gulf of Genoa to the estuary of the Mondego in probably no more than 100–200 years. This suggests a seafaring expansion by planting colonies along the coast.

Older Neolithic cultures existed already at this time in eastern Greece and Crete, apparently having arrived from the Levant, but they appear distinct from the Cardial or Impressed Ware culture. The ceramic tradition in the central Balkans also remained distinct from that along the Adriatic coastline in both style and manufacturing techniques for almost 1,000 years from the 6th millennium BC. Early Neolithic impressed pottery is found in the Levant, and certain parts of Anatolia, including Mezraa-Teleilat, and in North Africa at Tunus-Redeyef, Tunisia. So the first Cardial settlers in the Adriatic may have come directly from the Levant. Of course it might equally well have come directly from North Africa, and impressed-pottery also appears in Egypt. Along the East Mediterranean coast Impressed Ware has been found in North Syria, Palestine and Lebanon.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Cardial_map.png

Also the Med component seems to be a very broad category that can be broken up into an east and west Med component. the east med was probably rather archaeic to its region but so was the west med. biased thinking IMO insists that the La Brana remains med component is due to admixture with farmer but I'm not a firm believer that geography does not play a role in genetic components. that's why after all the Med component is more separable from the SW Asian component on Globe 13 plot, even more so compared to how the N. Euro and W. Asian component seperate on same plot.

According to some geneticists logic, occupation = genetic makeup or correlates with such. However I'd rather expect then to see hunter and gatherers be just one component as well as later Neolithics like Oetzi. But this is just not the case. Even the Northern Hunter gatherers from the Mesolithic had other components to them likely based on geographic proximity to such groups and what not.

[Black Wolf]

Both really, that is west asian and east med based on what we know of the Cardial Ware's dispersal pattern:




Also the Med component seems to be a very broad category that can be broken up into an east and west Med component. the east med was probably rather archaeic to its region but so was the west med. biased thinking IMO insists that the La Brana remains med component is due to admixture with farmer but I'm not a firm believer that geography does not play a role in genetic components. that's why after all the Med component is more separable from the SW Asian component on Globe 13 plot, even more so compared to how the N. Euro and W. Asian component seperate on same plot.

According to some geneticists logic, occupation = genetic makeup or correlates with such. However I'd rather expect then to see hunter and gatherers be just one component as well as later Neolithics like Oetzi. But this is just not the case. Even the Northern Hunter gatherers from the Mesolithic had other components to them likely based on geographic proximity to such groups and what not.

And in reality right now we just do not know exactly how ''Mesolithic'' and how ''Neolithic'' modern Europeans are. We need more ancient autosomal DNA tested first and more research done.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So-called "west asia" is simply europe. It's only recently that mongol, turk, levant, and african dna flooded in. And it's still mainly european DNA.

No one can say for sure where this genetic component comes from but I don't think anatolia is a bad guess, but ancient anatolia, which was much different.

[orangepulp]

So-called "west asia" is simply europe. It's only recently that mongol, turk, levant, and african dna flooded in. And it's still mainly european DNA.

No one can say for sure where this genetic component comes from but I don't think anatolia is a bad guess, but ancient anatolia, which was much different.

What about the African that southern Europeans score and the Asian that some North Euros have? Who brought those over?

If you think West Asian is mostly a European component its abundant all over from Central Asia all the way to The Levant and Anatolia which means the populations that live there are mostly European by your logic.

[Gaston]

So-called "west asia" is simply europe. It's only recently that mongol, turk, levant, and african dna flooded in. And it's still mainly european DNA.

No one can say for sure where this genetic component comes from but I don't think anatolia is a bad guess, but ancient anatolia, which was much different.

Aren't you tired of repeating the same shit again and again? Where are your references? Just because you claim this doesn't mean it's true.

I am sorry to tell you this but as a European (mutt), you probably have around 10% ancient Mong admix.

[tamilgangster]

West asian is a seperate component of its own, its not european

[Pure ja]

Aren't you tired of repeating the same shit again and again? Where are your references? Just because you claim this doesn't mean it's true.

I am sorry to tell you this but as a European (mutt), you probably have around 10% ancient Mong admix.

Pre-mong, which isn't the same.
In general, europeans have more neanderthal than mong, to put things into perspective.

[Übermensch]

Of course is european.

[Damião de Góis]

Of course is european.

People who have lots of it usually say that.

[Harkonnen]

Yes it is European.


Pre-mong, which isn't the same.
In general, europeans have more neanderthal than mong, to put things into perspective.

To put things into perspective East Eurasians have more neanderthal than West Eurasians.

[Pure ja]

To put things into perspective East Eurasians have more neanderthal than West Eurasians.

Perhaps, but that was not the issue here :)

The issue was slapping a mong sign to anything and everything.

[Gaita]

People who have lots of it usually say that.

Lol....good point.

[Gaita]

If West Asian is a European component, than so is N. African and SSA, and any other asian component for that matter, period.

[orangepulp]

If West Asian is a European component, than so is N. African and SSA, and any other asian component for that matter, period.

West Asian is not a European component but you still can't compare N. Africa, SSA and East Asian components and put them on the same level with West Asian.

[GrebluBro]

West Asian is not a European component but you still can't compare N. Africa, SSA and East Asian components and put the on the same level with West Asian.

If West Asian is not European component, you guys better redraw Europe map by removing Italy, Greece and many more neighbors..they all got 20+ % West Asian component.

23andme results intentionally redefine West Asian component according to the need to make sure all southern/sothern-east Europeans score verr high Euro percent.

[orangepulp]

If West Asian is not European component, you guys better redraw Europe map by removing Italy, Greece and many more neighbors..they all got 20+ % West Asian component.

Greece is 50% West Asian so are South Italians:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndFpQT1FJV1BKYW9TMkFWQXRjQWdqb Xc&usp=drive_web#gid=5

Reality is they are not 100% European. If West Asian is a European component then Turks, Armenians, Georgians, Persians would all be European.

[GrebluBro]

Greece is 50% West Asian so are South Italians:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndFpQT1FJV1BKYW9TMkFWQXRjQWdqb Xc&usp=drive_web#gid=5

Reality is they are not 100% European. If West Asian is a European component then Turks, Armenians, Georgians, Persians would all be European.


50% is for small minority of Greeks/Italians and person can't look European if WA genes exceeds certain limit like 35% (assume).

Striking out Greeks and Italians is a shameful act since they are kind of founding fathers of Europe..

West Asian component exceeds 50% on average in Turks, Armenians, Georgians, Persians, so majority wont look Euro..
Some minorities of aforementioned groups could look Euro if WA component is not much..

[Prince Carlo]

Greece is 50% West Asian so are South Italians:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndFpQT1FJV1BKYW9TMkFWQXRjQWdqb Xc&usp=drive_web#gid=5

Reality is they are not 100% European. If West Asian is a European component then Turks, Armenians, Georgians, Persians would all be European.

xD

Georgians and Iranians score 90% west asian, South Italians score 50% and Germanic/Slavic core groups score 20%. The gap is obvious.

[Styrian Mujo]

West asian admixture originates in west asia therefore it is non "European", the elevated concetration of west Asian admixture in SE Europe is mostly due to immigration from the eastern mediterranean within the last 2000/3000 years but also due to the neolithic expansion of farmers.

[orangepulp]

50% is for small minority of Greeks/Italians and person can't look European if WA genes exceeds certain limit like 35% (assume).

Striking out Greeks and Italians is a shameful act since they are kind of founding fathers of Europe..

If West Asian component exceeds 50% on average in Turks, Armenians, Georgians, Persians, so majority wont look Euro..
Some minorities of aforementioned groups could look Euro if WA component is not much..
Shameful act!! This is the reality, go look at the spreadsheet I posted.

West Asian added together is the Caucasus, Southwest Asian and Gedrosia components. Caucasus component is the highest none European component Greeks have with 37.4%.

Greeks do have West Asian ancestry hence why there is phenotypical overlap between Greeks and other West Asians.

[orangepulp]

xD

Georgians and Iranians score 90% west asian, South Italians score 50% and Germanic/Slavic core groups score 20%. The gap is obvious.

50% is a significant percentage.

[GrebluBro]

Shameful act!! This is the reality, go look at the spreadsheet I posted.

West Asian added together is the Caucasus, Southwest Asian and Gedrosia components. Caucasus component is the highest none European component Greeks have with 37.4%.

Greeks do have West Asian ancestry hence why there is phenotypical overlap between Greeks and other West Asians.

I didn't see your spreadsheet but I am pretty sure which one you are referring.

I meant shameful act in the sense that even if Greeks/Italians are genetically quite different , they will remain Europeans because they are the founding fathers of Europe..


37.4% or any percent is obvious among Greeks and pretty much no one will decline that Greeks/Italians got West Asian genes.

We may consider limit in the percent of West-Asian gene as criteria to consider who is European..
we can't abruptly say whoever with visisble West Asian is not European,
1/3 of Europeans won't be EUropean if we do so.

[Insuperable]

Shameful act!! This is the reality, go look at the spreadsheet I posted.

West Asian added together is the Caucasus, Southwest Asian and Gedrosia components. Caucasus component is the highest none European component Greeks have with 37.4%.

Greeks do have West Asian ancestry hence why there is phenotypical overlap between Greeks and other West Asians.

Why do you think that Caucasus is non-European one when it is neither non-European nor European?

[orangepulp]

I didn't see your spreadsheet but I am pretty sure which one you are referring.

I meant shameful act in the sense that even if Greeks/Italians are genetically quite different , they will remain Europeans because they are the founding fathers of Europe..


37.4% or any percent is obvious among Greeks and pretty much no one will decline that Greeks/Italians got West Asian genes.

We may consider limit in the percent of West-Asian gene as criteria to consider who is European..
we can't abruptly say whoever with visisble West Asian is not European,
1/3 of Europeans won't be EUropean if we do so.
Spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndFpQT1FJV1BKYW9TMkFWQXRjQWdqb Xc&usp=drive_web#gid=5

I didn't deny Greeks European identity. I was talking in the genetic sense that Greeks are 50% none Europeans according to Dodecad K12b. The objective of this thread was not to put Greeks on the spot light but to prove West Asian is not a European component. Some people were classifying West Asian as European due to its abundance in Southern Europe. Just because West Asian is significant in Southern European populations it doesn't make it a European component.

[Gaston]

Well, you guys aren't up-to-date: there was a huge revolution 3 days ago in Eurasian population genetics. According to the last paper on ancient genomes from Europe, West Asian is definitely non-European. It's also lacking in North Africa (Egypt excluded) and East Africa, which means it came very recently in the Near East (and Europe) after the Neolithic expansions. The West Asian component is often close to the North European because it has non-West Eurasian admixture in it too (Ancient North Eurasian) and maybe some other minor stuff too.

Finally, there is no component specific to Europe today, except maybe some Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers who also were purely West Eurasian (Lochsbour). The rest is non-West Eurasian (ANE like the Mal'ta boy, Ancient North Eurasian which also contributed to West Asians and Native Americans) and Early Europan Farmers (who were a West Eurasian/Basal Eurasian hybrid, like Neolithic Stuttgart).
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YbYK8NzQNAY/UrihRsR5eSI/AAAAAAAAJbo/TYynaV4cO4Y/s1600/model.png

[GrebluBro]

Spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndFpQT1FJV1BKYW9TMkFWQXRjQWdqb Xc&usp=drive_web#gid=5

I didn't deny Greeks European identity. I was talking in the genetic sense that Greeks are 50% none Europeans according to Dodecad K12b. The objective of this thread was not to put Greeks on the spot light but to prove West Asian is not a European component. Some people were classifying West Asian as European due to its abundance in Southern Europe. Just because West Asian is significant in Southern European populations it doesn't make it a European component.

I have mastered that sheet already,
it says North-western Indians are about 25% European :lol: :crazy::bullet puke:wavey001::zzz:clap:

:jump0000::bump2:


=> disregard that sheet

[orangepulp]

Why do you think that Caucasus is non-European one when it is neither non-European nor European?

Because Caucasus ( sometimes referred to as West Asian) populations are not genetically close to Europeans if you check the PCA plots:


http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6199/genomeorangepulpfull201.png

http://imageshack.com/a/img819/2953/toga.png

[Unpopular]

In Southern Italy the West Asian component is very strong, almost as like in Greece.

[Unpopular]

West Asian is not an European component, for me.
Else why we call it that ("West Asian") ?

[Insuperable]

Because Caucasus ( sometimes referred to as West Asian)

As usual more non-sense from you. Caucasus is not the same as West Asian when it comes to components at least on Dodecad. Both are close to European ones, but two of them are not the same. Caucasus is a completely artificial component. It is a mix of "Southern" and West Asian if I am not mistaken. You posted K12b Dodeacd spreadsheet without posting K7b one because K12b and K7b calculators are interchangable in a sense that what you get on K7b will help you to interprete your K12b results.

For example
Oetzi has ~20% Caucasus on K12b and ~0% West Asian on K7b. Since the
Caucasus component is West Asian + Southern, this means that his
"Caucasus" admixture is due to the "Southern" and not to the "West
Asian" part meaning that Greeks would be less than 50% "non-European" judging by your spreadsheet, but probably not that much less.

[gregorius]

As usual more non-sense from you. Caucasus is not the same as West Asian when it comes to components at least on Dodecad. Both are close to European ones, but two of them are not the same. Caucasus is a completely artificial component. It is a mix of "Southern" and West Asian if I am not mistaken. You posted K12b Dodeacd spreadsheet without posting K7b one because K12b and K7b calculators are interchangable in a sense that what you get on K7b will help you to interprete your K12b results.

For example
Oetzi has ~20% Caucasus on K12b and ~0% West Asian on K7b. Since the
Caucasus component is West Asian + Southern, this means that his
"Caucasus" admixture is due to the "Southern" and not to the "West
Asian" part meaning that Greeks would be less than 50% "non-European".

Western Asian component is caucasus+gedrosia if im not mistaken.

[Gaston]

People, you should forget all these old components: ancient DNA made them obsolete just before Christmas.

[gregorius]

anyway If someone is into a movie I can recommend you this one :laugh:. Just saw it and it was awesome.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA10RDU9quU

[orangepulp]

As usual more non-sense from you. Caucasus is not the same as West Asian when it comes to components at least on Dodecad. Both are close to European ones, but two of them are not the same. Caucasus is a completely artificial component. It is a mix of "Southern" and West Asian if I am not mistaken. You posted K12b Dodeacd spreadsheet without posting K7b one because K12b and K7b calculators are interchangable in a sense that what you get on K7b will help you to interprete your K12b results.

For example
Oetzi has ~20% Caucasus on K12b and ~0% West Asian on K7b. Since the
Caucasus component is West Asian + Southern, this means that his
"Caucasus" admixture is due to the "Southern" and not to the "West
Asian" part meaning that Greeks would be less than 50% "non-European".
It is the same sometimes they name the component West Asia sometimes they name it Caucasus. You will never see Caucasus and West Asia used as a term the same time on a calculator. Caucasus/ West Asian peaks in Georgians and Georgians are one of the closest to the pure form of West Asians. They have less admixture than Armenians and Turks for instance. Check Eurogenes K13 spreadsheet the West Asian component in Georgians:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQQ2tPX0gzVEs2YmM/edit?pli=1

[orangepulp]

Western Asian component is caucasus+gedrosia if im not mistaken.
Depends on the calculator. On k12b Gedrosia itself is already a component which means the Caucasus component here does not contain Gedrosia.

These are my k12b results, by the way:

Caucasus: 51.2%
Gedrosia: 17%
Atlantic_Med: 10.5%
Southwest_Asian: 9.2%
North_European: 6.3%
Siberian: 2.9%
East_Asian: 2.9%
Northwest_African: 0%
Southeast_Asian: 0%
South_Asian: 0%
East_African: 0%
Sub_Saharan: 0%

[gregorius]

Depends on the calculator. On k12b Gedrosia itself is already a component which means the Caucasus component here does not contain Gedrosia.

These are my k12b results, by the way:

Caucasus: 51.2%
Gedrosia: 17%
Atlantic_Med: 10.5%
Southwest_Asian: 9.2%
North_European: 6.3%
Siberian: 2.9%
East_Asian: 2.9%
Northwest_African: 0%
Southeast_Asian: 0%
South_Asian: 0%
East_African: 0%
Sub_Saharan: 0%

If you add your caucasus and gedrosia you;; have your west asian component.

[Insuperable]

It is the same sometimes they name the component West Asia sometimes they name it Caucasus. You will never see Caucasus and West Asia used as a term the same time on a calculator. Caucasus/ West Asian peaks in Georgians and Georgians are one of the closest to the pure form of West Asians. They have less admixture than Armenians and Turks for instance. Check Eurogenes K13 spreadsheet the West Asian component in Georgians:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQQ2tPX0gzVEs2YmM/edit?pli=1

I have explained to you that they are not the same even if they are not used in the same calc simultaneously nor how could they because I explained it very nicely using Oetzi example.

Edit: Eurogenes is a different thing since Caucasus on Eurogenes is not the same as Caucasus on Dodeacad.

[VAARON]

no , asia is not in europe

[orangepulp]

If you add your caucasus and gedrosia you;; have your west asian component.


Caucasus+ Gedrosia+ Southwest Asian. In total I am 77.4% West Asian with k12b

I think the Caucasus in this calculator may contain some East med.

[orangepulp]

I have explained to you that they are not the same even if they are not used in the same calc simultaneously nor how could they because I explained it very nicely using Oetzi example.

So what is Southern in k7b is the question then. It could be equal to East Med since it also significant in West Asian populations. Again may contain no Euro.

[orangepulp]

People, you should forget all these old components: ancient DNA made them obsolete just before Christmas.

Can you link me the site?

[Damião de Góis]

West Asia on V3 should be the right component to look at:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

[Gaston]

Can you link me the site?

Of course, here is the link (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552) of the paper. (check the supplements).
You can also read the about the study in Dienekes' blog, Eurogenes blog and For what they were we are blog.

[Insuperable]

So what is Southern in k7b is the question then. It could be equal to East Med since it also significant in West Asian populations. Again may contain none Euro.

Southern itself can be expresses only in terms of k12 components and vice versa. They are nothing by itself. Southern expressed in terms of k12b is a mix of AtlanticMed, SWA and minor Northwest African. But judging by Oetzi example it doesn't have to mean that someone has specific mixes. Id say that judging by K12b and K7b Greeks turn out to be 35-40% non-European and not 50%.

And see my edited post btw.

[Black Wolf]

Of course, here is the link (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552) of the paper. (check the supplements).
You can also read the about the study in Dienekes' blog, Eurogenes blog and For what they were we are blog.

It would be amazing if Polako could create a new calculator for these components from this new study but I don't know if that will ever happen or not.

[Gaston]

It would be amazing if Polako could create a new calculator for these components from this new study but I don't know if that will ever happen or not.

Yeah, I agree with you. He needs the data though, which is going to take some time to get I guess. I'm sure it'll happen one day, and I'm personally most curious about how much of the new ancestry called "Basal Eurasian" I would get.

[Black Wolf]

Yeah, I agree with you. He needs the data though, which is going to take some time to get I guess. I'm sure it'll happen one day, and I'm personally most curious about how much of the new ancestry called "Basal Eurasian" I would get.

I am quite curious about the ''Basal Eurasian'' ancestry as well. Seems like it could be Proto-Mediterranean or something.

[Unpopular]

xD

Georgians and Iranians score 90% west asian, South Italians score 50% and Germanic/Slavic core groups score 20%. The gap is obvious.

South Italians are 50% West Asian?
It's a lot for an "European" country. ;)

[Sikeliot]

South Italians are 50% West Asian?
It's a lot for an "European" country. ;)

Yes, but so do Greek islands, Malta etc.

[Prince Carlo]

South Italians are 50% West Asian?
It's a lot for an "European" country. ;)

A campanian would still score 50% European on EUtest V2. Mainland Greeks score 60%. West Asians score 10-20%.

A half mailand Greek half Polish person would cluster with Serbs.
A half Campania half Polish person would cluster with Romanians.

[Pure ja]

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/12/ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three.html

[So what could be the cause of this relatively recent Siberian gene flow into Northeastern Europe? The best bet is the Uralic expansion and, for the Chuvash and Mordovians, perhaps also the Turkic expansion. Based on latest linguistic research, the pre-proto-Uralics appear to have expanded at some point from Siberia into the Volga-Ural region, in far eastern Europe. During the Bronze Age the Uralics proper then expanded from the Volga-Ural both back to the east and also west, as far as the Baltic (see here (http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2012/10/on-the-homeland-of-the-uralic-language-family/)).]

I see problems with that.

Based on K=9 ADMIXTURE analysis results (with Mal'ta components)
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2810/hhx4.png
estonians have very little light yellow and orange. So, either those components arrived to karelians and finns and saamis (I am assuming that other baltic finnics have more of light yellow when compared to estonians and livonians, based on maris and chuvash) after the arrival of finnic languages, or the switch to finnic languages had to be almost without immigration (at least not from the Karelian direction). On the other hand, there is the spread of N1c, which also had to precede the spread of the light yellow component.

One problem I see is that while saami is supposed to be the least changed of the (baltic-)finnic languages, livonian and seto and estonian are supposed to be the most changed among baltic-finnic languages - and they were supposed to split first from the "proto-baltic-finnic". If one dates the arrival of finnic languages to the Baltic Sea coast at the bronze age (3000 years ago), then that means that higher density sedentary half-agricultural people in Estonia and Livonia for some reason took over a language which mostly left behind stone-age vocabulary - with just a tricle of migrants.

I don't see how proto-saamis could bring finnic language to Estonia or Livonia - not in metal ages and maybe never. There are other issues as well - toponyms, folk tales, etc. - which in my non-professional opinion are in conflict with a late arrival of finnic languages to the Baltics.

The suggestion that this relatively new "siberian" admix came from the southern steppes instead (via mordvins) has another problem since that direction was supposed to be blocked by balts or baltoslavs already during the bronze age. The more north-easterly route would face the same problem as that of Karelian route - it would have had to be through "proto-saamis" whose population density was way lower and lifestyle more archaic than that of estonians, setos and livonians (and adsele finnics in eastern latvia).

And the largest problem I see is the use of a linguistic tree-model approach, instead of a network-model. Based on the tree-model approach, they a priori exclude the 'unknown' language in the contemporary baltic-finnic area prior to the "arrival of the finnic languages". With a network model, it could be tried and tested as part of the uralic languages, one which later took over something from the more eastern uralic languages.

One early wave of siberian-like genetic influence arrived to Karelia around 7000-8000 years ago.

[Aila]

One early wave of siberian-like genetic influence arrived to Karelia around 7000-8000 years ago.


You are talking about the aUZ = Mesolithic Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov here I assume -what else.

Language aside, but I don't see why later contacts similar to the aBOO = Bronze Age Bol'shoy Oleni Ostrov would not have brought some genetic influence as well, especially to the ancestors of Karelians and Kargopol Russians.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1003296
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/7082/dersfig1.png

Ancient waterways:
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff455/Ailapics/waterways.png

[Pure ja]

Aila, those influences that came from the north-east (from the samoyed- sürja-komi direction) were from peoples who fed on reindeer and smaller game. There was no reindeer in Estonia since epipaleolithic. Also, I haven't seen any genetical evidence (besides N1c) that any of those mesolithic or neolithic or metal age "asian" influences arrived to Estonia. At least not yet. There is very little orange / dark yellow of the "han" component among estonians. There is also very little light yellow.

And why didn't those influences from north-east spread further west to Estonia and Latvia and Lithuania?
Because the Baltic shore peoples were sedentary and had higher population density when compared to north-east.

And if we consider the south-eastern route through Mordovia, than that route would have had to come from Sarapol through Moscow towards Pskov and Tartu. Moscow area was at the border of finnic and baltic tribes. Anything west to Moscow was supposed to be baltic already by the start of the bronze age. So whatever came to Estonia and Latvia could not have come via south-west of Moscow, but it also couldn't have come much further north-eastern route because there you do not have as advanced agriculture any more. I don't see how one can postulate the spread of finnic to Estonia and Latvia without explaining how it outcompeted baltic dialects and the supposedly unknown prior language. One could argue that the south-estonian dialect could be the result of such a wave from south-east, but that does not explain why that bronze age wave stopped at the very geographic border of Allerod shorelines in Estonia 13000 years ago.

[Pure ja]

Aila, those influences that came from the north-east (from the samoyed- sürja-komi direction) were from peoples who fed on reindeer and smaller game. There was no reindeer in Estonia since epipaleolithic. Also, I haven't seen any genetical evidence (besides N1c) that any of those mesolithic or neolithic or metal age "asian" influences arrived to Estonia. At least not yet. There is very little orange / dark yellow of the "han" component among estonians. There is also very little light yellow.

And why didn't those influences from north-east spread further west to Estonia and Latvia and Lithuania?
Because the Baltic shore peoples were sedentary and had higher population density when compared to north-east.

And if we consider the south-eastern route through Mordovia, than that route would have had to come from Sarapol through Moscow towards Pskov and Tartu. Moscow area was at the border of finnic and baltic tribes. Anything west to Moscow was supposed to be baltic already by the start of the bronze age. So whatever came to Estonia and Latvia could not have come via south-west of Moscow, but it also couldn't have come much further north-eastern route because there you do not have as advanced agriculture any more. I don't see how one can postulate the spread of finnic to Estonia and Latvia without explaining how it outcompeted baltic dialects and the supposedly unknown prior language. One could argue that the south-estonian dialect could be the result of such a wave from south-east, but that does not explain why that bronze age wave stopped at the very geographic border of Allerod shorelines in Estonia 13000 years ago.

Perhaps I should also add that the samoyed languages seem more influenced by finno-ugric than finno-ugric by samoyed. If that is true, then tundra peoples were more influenced by forest zone peoples than vice versa. So that makes it less likely that samoyed could initiate a change and a spread of finno-ugric, at least outside of the saami area.

[Argang]

The Kargopol Russians and Mordovians have more recent (recent meaning 1300-2100 years) eastern admixture compared to Finns, and presumably Estonians who weren't tested, but don't really show the orange Han component in the K9 Mal'ta study either, so whoever they mixed with didn't carry it.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2u9lohf.jpg


those components arrived to karelians and finns and saamis (I am assuming that other baltic finnics have more of light yellow when compared to estonians and livonians, based on maris and chuvash) after the arrival of finnic languages


The siberian component is very likely older than Finnic languages in the Baltic region. In the bronze age it might even have extended further than the uralic speakers ever did, as the bronze age Danish sample on the global PCA below shows as much eastern affinity as the most eastern Finns. The northern Baltic area probably just wasn't so densely populated in the Bronze Age that a language switch would have been impossible. I don't think bronze age remains from Finland or Estonia would look much different to the Danish sample on a PCA. Someone would need to do tests on Finns and Estonians to see whether their siberian has a different date, if Finnish is not more recent the lower level of Estonians most likely is explained by greater mixing with balto-slavs over time.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2hp0my0.jpg

[Atlantic Islander]

Voted no.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

It's a Middle Eastern component that mostly likely arose in Mesopotamia, archaeological and genetic evidence indicates that the Caucasus was populated by migrants during the Uruk period during the 5th to 4th Millennium BCE. It is most certainly not a European component, and just because it's found in large quantities in Southern European groups doesn't imply that it is a European component. The only indigenous European components are North_European and Baltic, and other related ancestral components. I couldn't care less how long it's been in Europe.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Wrong. West Asian peaks in Georgians i.e Northern Caucassians who incidentily look European.

Dumb ass, North Caucasians have Northern European admixture. That's why they look more European than Georgians do, who hardly have any. Also, Georgia is at a higher latitude than the countries just south of it are. So the climate is much more temperate, hence why they're lighter.


Iranians, Pakistanis and Iranians have other components in high % that are not found in Europe. Pakistanis for example score 60% South Asian.

On the contrary, Gedrosia is found in Europe. Yet incidentally, the WHG component isn't. Which further vindicates their Near Eastern Neolithic origin.


Georgians score some 60% West Asian, but they lack other components such as the Mediterannean and Northern European or they have them in negligable
percent.

So what, just because Georgians lack those other two components doesn't mean they're European. West Asian is not a European component, get over it.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Do you read what you write? 19 Greeks represent the total population of Greece?

You don't need extraordinarily large sample sizes to represent an entire population 20-30, is sufficient to make inferences about the entire population.


It's the same thing non-European and "non-European DNA", as I told you it has completely Euroreanized. Also an amount of Greeks have a haplogroup which came from north African haplogroup E, does this makes them 'Africans'?

Europeanized? Give me a fucking break, it still originated in the Middle East. Their paternal haplogroups would still ultimately be East African in origin, so cry me a river.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Saying West Asian component is non Euro therefore labelling any Greek, Italian or wichever European who has it as foreigner, is like saying a Turk who's born on the European side of Istanbul isn't a real Turkish...

False analogy. It isn't anything at all like declaring that a Turk is Non-European because of the geographical location he was born in, is part of Europe. That Turk is still genetically Non-European, and some Southern Europeans despite being in Europe for a long time are still partially genetically Non-European.


Europe doesn't end on Gibraltar and Istanbul, these are mere geographical conventional terms, in reality you see clines and clines...
otherwise tell me why I should consider West Asian alien but haplogroup N European?while it's much more spread in Siberia than Europe?

Haplogroups are very, very tenuous portion of your entire ancestry, and it has absolutely no effect on phenotype. Autosomal DNA however, does. Also genes mirror geography for the most part, so there is in fact a genetic cline that starts and ends in Europe. Those populations don't include Turks.


How about call it South East Europe component instead of West Asian?:rolleyes:

How about you learn to accept the facts about your Non-European ancestry?

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Asian is just a word. If we say "West Asian" is not European, we are saying people from Barcelona, Athens, and Marseilles may not be fully European.

Do you have a problem with that, if so, allow me to give you a late Christmas present.

http://img0.etsystatic.com/001/0/5847492/il_fullxfull.389576256_5kl1.jpg?ref=l2

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Yes, it's closest to North Euro component and haves an old historical diffusion into Europe.

It's closest North European, because North European branched off from West Asian, which is further substantiated by the interrelationships between the components.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

West Asian as strictly a very recent Bronze age component to Europe = Dienekes wet dream/ultimate fantasy land.

Considering the fact, that we don't have WHG related ancestry. I wouldn't snidely dismiss as being "Dienekes' wet dream/ultimate fantasy land." Regardless how long it's been present in Europe, what we know for sure is that it did not emerge in Europe.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

So-called "west asia" is simply europe. It's only recently that mongol, turk, levant, and african dna flooded in. And it's still mainly european DNA.

No one can say for sure where this genetic component comes from but I don't think anatolia is a bad guess, but ancient anatolia, which was much different.

It's not part of Europe, you fucking idiot. Europeans are a Middle Eastern daughter population, therefore is most certainly is Middle Eastern DNA that YOU are carrying not the other way around, all genetic and archaeological evidence supports this. Also, the East Eurasian and Sub-Saharan African in most parts of the Middle East are negligible at best.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

xD

Georgians and Iranians score 90% west asian, South Italians score 50% and Germanic/Slavic core groups score 20%. The gap is obvious.

Iranians don't score anywhere close to 90%. More like 48.4%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2

[ZephyrousMandaru]

West asian admixture originates in west asia therefore it is non "European", the elevated concetration of west Asian admixture in SE Europe is mostly due to immigration from the eastern mediterranean within the last 2000/3000 years but also due to the neolithic expansion of farmers.

You've reversed those two, it's actually most due to Neolithic migrations from the Fertile Crescent followed by more recent historical migrations.

[Stormer99]

Pure European is a social construct in a lot of cases. This is why it's stupid to define people like Vince Vaughn as mixed.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

People, you should forget all these old components: ancient DNA made them obsolete just before Christmas.

According to who?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Near east today is not near east of yesteryear. I would not assume its origin is in the near east, most of anatolia was depopulated several times.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

As usual more non-sense from you. Caucasus is not the same as West Asian when it comes to components at least on Dodecad. Both are close to European ones, but two of them are not the same. Caucasus is a completely artificial component. It is a mix of "Southern" and West Asian if I am not mistaken. You posted K12b Dodeacd spreadsheet without posting K7b one because K12b and K7b calculators are interchangable in a sense that what you get on K7b will help you to interprete your K12b results.

For example
Oetzi has ~20% Caucasus on K12b and ~0% West Asian on K7b. Since the
Caucasus component is West Asian + Southern, this means that his
"Caucasus" admixture is due to the "Southern" and not to the "West
Asian" part meaning that Greeks would be less than 50% "non-European" judging by your spreadsheet, but probably not that much less.

Look everyone, another moron who doesn't understand the ancestral clusters in ADMIXTURE calculators. West Asian is a composite component of Gedrosia+Caucasus. Otzi is 20% Caucasus, because Otzi was an early Neolithic farmer genius. The early agriculturalists were rich in the Mediterranean component, which also originated in the Middle East. The Caucasus component is a result of a later expansion of farmers. "Southern" is a conglomeration of two components, Southwest Asian and Mediterranean, it is not Caucasus or Gedrosia.

So yes, Greeks are still partly Non-European.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Near east today is not near east of yesteryear. I would not assume its origin is in the near east, most of anatolia was depopulated several times.

Near Easterners are still much more genetically diverse than European even today, genetic diversity can only be attained through an accumulation of mutations over time. It doesn't matter if the Near East today is not the same as yesterday, no human population today is the same as the one that it's descended from. Near Easterners, particularly the ethnic minorities are the best proxies we currently have determining the origin of early European genetic history.

Do you honestly think the Europeans of today, are the same as the ones from the Mesolithic? If so, maybe you need to take a closer look at the Europeans who have been tested with the EEF/WHG/ANE calculator. EEF is the component that's representative of the earliest European farmers, who were a mixture of Near Easterners and WHG.

[Scholarios]

Do you have a problem with that, if so, allow me to give you a late Christmas present.

http://img0.etsystatic.com/001/0/5847492/il_fullxfull.389576256_5kl1.jpg?ref=l2

What about anything I have ever said would cause you think I have a problem with that?


And Real Christmas is next week...

[Hellenas]

Europeanized? Give me a fucking break, it still originated in the Middle East. Their paternal haplogroups would still ultimately be East African in origin, so cry me a river.

We can have African roots, Middle Eastern, West Asian so what? Aren't all Europeans outsiders? We have Europeanized, having white natural skin colour, Euro-Mediterranean Hellenic facial features, Alpine and admixed mith Dinaric, mostly dark brown straight and wavy hairs, mostly brown and light mixed eyes, mostly straight & Alpine noses etc, etc, etc. Aren't we Europeans according to you? Take care, we have nothing to do with your Asian kind. We say we are Europeans and we are Europeans. Period.

Greeks Cluster Genetically with other Europeans
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/92/greeks-cluster-genetically-europeans

[ButlerKing]

Saying West Asian component is non Euro therefore labelling any Greek, Italian or wichever European who has it as foreigner, is like saying a Turk who's born on the European side of Istanbul isn't a real Turkish...

Europe doesn't end on Gibraltar and Istanbul, these are mere geographical conventional terms, in reality you see clines and clines...
otherwise tell me why I should consider West Asian alien but haplogroup N European?while it's much more spread in Siberia than Europe?

How about call it South East Europe component instead of West Asian?:rolleyes:

Because what matters is autosomal DNA.

Haplogroup N while present in Scandinavia at 30- 65% makes up only 2 - 15% of their genes. Haplogroup N by the they arrived in the Urals were more european looking than siberian

[Vesuvian Sky]

Considering the fact, that we don't have WHG related ancestry.

Who or what do you mean by 'we'?



I wouldn't snidely dismiss as being "Dienekes' wet dream/ultimate fantasy land."

Again, dismissive or 'snide' of what? Its entrance into Europe strictly during the Bronze Age? Are you sure you understood what I meant?


Regardless how long it's been present in Europe, what we know for sure is that it did not emerge in Europe.

No kidding...

[ButlerKing]

Spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndFpQT1FJV1BKYW9TMkFWQXRjQWdqb Xc&usp=drive_web#gid=5

I didn't deny Greeks European identity. I was talking in the genetic sense that Greeks are 50% none Europeans according to Dodecad K12b. The objective of this thread was not to put Greeks on the spot light but to prove West Asian is not a European component. Some people were classifying West Asian as European due to its abundance in Southern Europe. Just because West Asian is significant in Southern European populations it doesn't make it a European component.

Only some greeks have 50% non-european, most have 37% and some have less than 30%.

Greeks cluster closer to Europeans which is the same for Italian this is different to Turks of Turkey and Middle easterners who cluster to West Asian.

[Prince Carlo]

I don't even know if the East Med and the Gedrosia/Caucasus components can be considered middle eastern, considering that North Euros score 10-20% of that.

[Drawing-slim]

Fuck this genetic bullcrap. If you look white or whiter or less white, it is that what the fuck you're. Deal with it.
So far Chechens and people from that region look whiter then half of Europe today so call it whatever you like.

[ButlerKing]

Fuck this genetic bullcrap. If you look white or whiter or less white, it is that what the fuck you're. Deal with it.
So far Chechens and people from that region look whiter then half of Europe today so call it whatever you like.

What about dravidian albinos?

http://www.turdfergusonblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Albino-Family-03-634x443-e1331693375157.jpg

[Drawing-slim]

What about dravidian albinos?

http://www.turdfergusonblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Albino-Family-03-634x443-e1331693375157.jpg
The guy look Northern European, while the lady does not.

[ButlerKing]

The guy look Northern European, while the lady does not.


The lady looks more european than any west asian person I met ( with the acception of west asian that look north european )

[Drawing-slim]

The lady looks more european than any west asian person I met ( with the acception of west asian that look north european )

Not till she removes that Indian thing from her forehead. Which I was about to say on my post:D

[Iron Sheik]

It doesn't matter if it's not european. Europe did not exist as it did today. "west-asian" is a west-eurasian caucasoid component for sure. Modern day europeans have east-eurasian ancestry via the north-european component and the siberian mal'ta connection. So west-asian is the least of your worries. You can see europe's genetical mixture via the EFF-WHG-ANE calculators.

Europeans are west-eurasians with some east-eurasian ancestry, via mal'ta like people, who were a pre-historic siberian population that also are linked to native-americans. So you all can stop with these fantasies about a genetically isolated and pure super-european people, they never existed. As much as you'd love to deny it, you're related to west-asians, because you have the same genetic base. On top of that you share ancestry with a non-caucasoid population like native-americans.


http://bga101.blogspot.com/
http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2013/11/ancient-dna-from-upper-paleolithic-lake.html

so you and hitler were fucked from the start. It's a petty and pathetic endeavour to pretend that europeans are some pure-blooded master race. I'm sorry... but all genetic studies prove that europeans are not. This is why your race-puritan ideologies will never work. The more sciences unravels genetic facts, the more dumb and misguided you seem.

[Gaston]

^ Both West Asian and North European components are equally East Eurasian admixed (or shifted if you prefer).

[Insuperable]

It doesn't matter if it's not european. Europe did not exist as it did today. "west-asian" is a west-eurasian caucasoid component for sure. Modern day europeans have east-eurasian ancestry via the north-european component and the siberian mal'ta connection. So west-asian is the least of your worries. You can see europe's genetical mixture via the EFF-WHG-ANE calculators.

Europeans are west-eurasians with some east-eurasian ancestry, via mal'ta like people, who were a pre-historic siberian population that also are linked to native-americans. So you all can stop with these fantasies about a genetically isolated and pure super-european people, they never existed. As much as you'd love to deny it, you're related to west-asians, because you have the same genetic base. On top of that you share ancestry with a non-caucasoid population like native-americans.


http://bga101.blogspot.com/
http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2013/11/ancient-dna-from-upper-paleolithic-lake.html

so you and hitler were fucked from the start. It's a petty and pathetic endeavour to pretend that europeans are some pure-blooded master race. I'm sorry... but all genetic studies prove that europeans are not. This is why your race-puritan ideologies will never work. The more sciences unravels genetic facts, the more dumb and misguided you seem.

Little do people care about 24 000 year old mal'ta boy and East Eurasian link there of. What matters is modern time.

[Pure ja]

It doesn't matter if it's not european. Europe did not exist as it did today. "west-asian" is a west-eurasian caucasoid component for sure. Modern day europeans have east-eurasian ancestry via the north-european component and the siberian mal'ta connection. So west-asian is the least of your worries. You can see europe's genetical mixture via the EFF-WHG-ANE calculators.

Europeans are west-eurasians with some east-eurasian ancestry, via mal'ta like people, who were a pre-historic siberian population that also are linked to native-americans. So you all can stop with these fantasies about a genetically isolated and pure super-european people, they never existed. As much as you'd love to deny it, you're related to west-asians, because you have the same genetic base. On top of that you share ancestry with a non-caucasoid population like native-americans.


http://bga101.blogspot.com/
http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2013/11/ancient-dna-from-upper-paleolithic-lake.html

so you and hitler were fucked from the start. It's a petty and pathetic endeavour to pretend that europeans are some pure-blooded master race. I'm sorry... but all genetic studies prove that europeans are not. This is why your race-puritan ideologies will never work. The more sciences unravels genetic facts, the more dumb and misguided you seem.

It is mostly about who was here first (wherever here is).
Or who has inherited more from those who were here first.
Because that is what is useful in contemporary politics.

[CommonSense]

It's not European, but it's a part of the DNA of all the peoples living in Europe whether we like it or not. The further north you go, the less Mediterranean and West Asian people score.

[Urbanuss]

Absolutely no.

[Urbanuss]

If WA its european because its "caucasoid" so NA is european too.

[strike978]

Aren't modern day Europeans basically near eastern Finnic hybrids???

I believe Europeans all plot in between those two population??

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

[Figaro]

Aren't modern day Europeans basically near eastern Finnic hybrids???

I believe Europeans all plot in between those two population??

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

No...Uralic speakers did not arrive into Europe until the Iron Age...maybe some initial smaller movements during the LBA. the narrative that Finno-Ugric represents an ancient-most linguistic group in Europe is a genetic old wives’ tale.

[Petalpusher]

Depends if you see Yamnaya as indigenous

Yamnaya I0443 / 3300-2700 BC
North_Atlantic 25.99 Pct
Baltic 38.52 Pct
West_Med -
West_Asian 28.05 Pct
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 3.43 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 4.01 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

It's like some models with formed IEs in G25, they just forget to tell you there s plenty of "farmer" type of dna embedded in it, in the form of CHG/Iran_N (which is even more basal than actual farmers). Here it manifests in West Asian mostly, because that's a more modern component.

[Roy]

I'd say it isn't.

[Didac]

West Asian/east med/west med are all European components

[Urbanuss]

West Asian/east med/west med are all European components

So you must include East Asian and North African (NA is caucasoid) as "European".

[Gallop]

Everything that Europeans obtain for Europeans during the formation of Europe and in important historical events and that Europeans have integrated for Europeans is so, if in other continents they do not agree we do not care, Europe is decided by Europeans, whether there are differences of opinion among Europeans is not relevant either, since no European territory has the exclusivity of Europe as a continent.

[Permafrost]

West Asian is what gives Europeans a sallow complexion, big round eyes and a lot of body hair.

It's literally worse than the bubbonic plague.

[Didac]

So you must include East Asian and North African (NA is caucasoid) as "European".

North Africans have large amounts of west and east med. their non Caucasoid component is ssa. North Africans aren’t a component on their own but comprised of multiple components. Secondly tf do u mean East Asian

[Didac]

West Asian is what gives Europeans a sallow complexion, big round eyes and a lot of body hair.

It's literally worse than the bubbonic plague.



Your very mistaken, people with the highest west Asian in the world where it peaks like baloch, South Caucasus Georgia iran etc mostly have small eyes not big bulging eyes

[kingmob]

The large almond type eyes (with/without bags underneath) is a Mediterranean trait.

[Roy]

North Africans have large amounts of west and east med. their non Caucasoid component is ssa. North Africans aren’t a component on their own but comprised of multiple components. Secondly tf do u mean East Asian

They also constitute their own component though through a long lasting isolation. Taforalt people were extremely distinct for instance.

[Didac]

They also constitute their own component though through a long lasting isolation. Taforalt people were extremely distinct for instance.


How can they constitute their own component when they’re comprised of three very clear components

[Petalpusher]

How can they constitute their own component when they’re comprised of three very clear components

You can make up a new component with anything, especially based on moderns. In the case Taforalt, it's mostly West Eurasian + 1/3 SSA. You can call that "Taforalt" because it was particularly found there at a certain time. People today who have that specific combination in the right proportions will score it too. Many others components are like that with Oceanian or East Asian. They just tend to fool people into thinking they are not made of what they are actually made of, until you look at them with the prism of more ancient and distinct populations. Chiefly the big 4, Caucasoid, SSA, Oceanian, East Asian (eventually Amerindian).

[Didac]

You can make up a new component with anything, especially based on moderns. In the case Taforalt, it's mostly West Eurasian + 1/3 SSA. You can call that "Taforalt" because it was particularly found there at a certain time. People today who have that specific combination in the right proportions will score it too. Many others components are like that with Oceanian or East Asian. They just tend to fool people into thinking they are not made of what they are actually made of, until you look at them with the prism of more ancient and distinct populations. Chiefly the big 4, Caucasoid, SSA, Oceanian, East Asian (eventually Amerindian).


As you just said you can make a component out of anything then it’s not accurate is it because if someone scores North African they’re Essentially scoring it bc they have east and west med or ssa. It’s not accurate to make components out of modern ethnicities

[Polischuk]

Non European, the ethbicities which have significant amount of it r boarder european. Whg/ehg genetics are the base

[Mont]

According to some analysis I did on ancient samples provided by David Reich on his website, it seems that the so called "Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers" and the prehistoric Iranians cluster together in a component that I call West Asian.

That component is not present in an homogenous form in Europe, but perhaps some do have. So my answer is a maybe.