Clustering european folk tales

[evon]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-b2eCZTcWy34/URLFIWBfHnI/AAAAAAAAIh0/JBi2UNQx6gE/s1600/F2.large.jpg


Population structure and cultural geography of a folktale in Europe

Robert M. Ross et al.

Despite a burgeoning science of cultural evolution, relatively little work has focused on the population structure of human cultural variation. By contrast, studies in human population genetics use a suite of tools to quantify and analyse spatial and temporal patterns of genetic variation within and between populations. Human genetic diversity can be explained largely as a result of migration and drift giving rise to gradual genetic clines, together with some discontinuities arising from geographical and cultural barriers to gene flow. Here, we adapt theory and methods from population genetics to quantify the influence of geography and ethnolinguistic boundaries on the distribution of 700 variants of a folktale in 31 European ethnolinguistic populations. We find that geographical distance and ethnolinguistic affiliation exert significant independent effects on folktale diversity and that variation between populations supports a clustering concordant with European geography. This pattern of geographical clines and clusters parallels the pattern of human genetic diversity in Europe, although the effects of geographical distance and ethnolinguistic boundaries are stronger for folktales than genes. Our findings highlight the importance of geography and population boundaries in models of human cultural variation and point to key similarities and differences between evolutionary processes operating on human genes and culture.
http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2013/02/clustering-folk-tales.html


Iknew Norwegian and Swedish was similar, but i did not expect Danish to be so different..

[Comte Arnau]

That's cool.

A pity Catalan wasn't included. I'd have loved to see our position, as some of the folk mythology in our fairy tales share things in common with the Basques via the Pyrenees.

[Austo]

THats interesting. German and Latvian so close together.

[evon]

THats interesting. German and Latvian so close together.

My guess it has to do with regional similarities, and Germans have lived further east then they do today in the past so...

[Didriksson]

I'm trying to understand what I see.

Does it mean that Latvians are closer to Danes and Germans than Estonians? and Estonians are closer to Russians than Latvians?

*I wonder where are Lithuanians...

[Didriksson]

THats interesting. German and Latvian so close together.

As a Latvian I get it, but I don't get why Estonians are so far away...

[evon]

I'm trying to understand what I see.

Does it mean that Latvians are closer to Danes and Germans than Estonians? and Estonians are closer to Russians than Latvians?

*I wonder where are Lithuanians...


As a Latvian I get it, but I don't get why Estonians are so far away...

I dont know them so i cant say much, i only know Norwegian ones and some Swedish..

[Twistedmind]

Estonian clustering with Slavic ones. Karl gonna be happy :D
Anyway, it is not surprise Slavic are clustered, since all of them are indeed verry similar, motives, plots, characters. :)

[Didriksson]

Yup... I'm confused.

[Hurrem sultana]

Estonian clustering with Slavic ones. Karl gonna be happy :D
Anyway, it is not surprise Slavic are clustered, since all of them are indeed verry similar, motives, plots, characters. :)

I am expecting Karl any minute here to deny this :D

[Jackson]

Interesting.

[Hweinlant]

Similarity between Estonian and Russian folktales is likely because lot of Russian folktales are infact Finnic folktales from NW Russia. Forexample Pushkin's "Russian Fairytales" is just a collection of old Izhronian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhorians) (lived where St. Petersburg is now) folk tales. Also note that Estonians, Russians and "Finno-Ugric in Russia" form one node, this further confirms my point.

[Twistedmind]

Similarity between Estonian and Russian folktales is likely because lot of Russian folktales are infact Finnic folktales from NW Russia. Forexample Pushkin's "Russian Fairytales" is just a collection of old Izhronian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhorians) (lived where St. Petersburg is now) folk tales. Also note that Estonians, Russians and "Finno-Ugric in Russia" form one node, this further confirms my point.

And other Slavs, including Southern (which are in fact basis fo Pushkin's work) also as wellEtonian folk tales from from Izhora? :bored:

[Hweinlant]

And other Slavs, including Southern (which are in fact basis fo Pushkin's work) also as wellEtonian folk tales from from Izhora? :bored:

I'm not saying all Russian folk tales are from Finnics but helluvalot are. Even the Bylinas were mostly collected from the (formerly) Finnic part of Russia. You know like, tale of Sadko. Funny how pan-slavissist forged identity based on old Finnic fairy tales. Fraudulent bunch.

[Twistedmind]

I'm not saying all Russian folk tales are from Finnics but helluvalot are.
Quite countrary. Most of Russian folkore originated in places which have nothing to do with Finnic population. Pushkin used motives from South Slavic poetry, and even wrote about it. It is well known fact.



Even the Bylinas were mostly collected from the (formerly) Finnic part of Russia.
Not they are not. Like fairytales Bylini resemble Serbian Epic poetry.
Only connection is that Ilya Muromets is considered to be born in Muromsk, but it is nothing. :D



You know like, tale of Sadko. Funny how pan-slavissist forged identity based on old Finnic fairy tales. Fraudulent bunch.

Funny is that you are speaking nonsenses.

[inactive_member]

Sharing folklore is not uncommon among people living close to one another, but in the case of Russians it’s Ugrofinns who likely being influenced by influential Russians. As pointed above Russians and other Slavs living south and west have a lot of things in common in their folklore. Some folklore elements probably originated well before Slavs arrived to the north or to the Balkans. The similarities between Slavic folklore are obvious to those who are familiar with them.

PS What about Lithuanians? The group of people that has preserved much are not worthy to be included?

[Hweinlant]

Pushkin used motives from South Slavic poetry, and even wrote about it. It is well known fact.


Pushkin's nanny (and later-on house keeper) was Arina Rodionova, and old Izhorian peasant woman from village of Tsarskoye Selo. Place is today known as town of Pushkin, it's just outside of St. Petersburg. She told lot of old, local, folk tales to Pushkin, who then wrote them as poems. All the local population at Tsarskoye Selo (also knows as Izhora hills) was Finnic back then, as was pretty much everyone else at Ingria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingria). Only the nobility, like Pushkin, spoke Russian (or often French) as native language. Thats the setup where Pushkin spent his childhood and younger years. Arina, the nanny, followed him pretty much all of her life.



Not they are not. Like fairytales Bylini resemble Serbian Epic poetry.
Only connection is that Ilya Muromets is considered to be born in Muromsk, but it is nothing. :D


Lol, sure. Serbian folktales tell about kantele/gusli/Kanklės-playing Novgorodian merchants :eek:

You do realise that Izhorians fex. were actual Novgorodians, as were most of the North Russia's regions where the Bylinas were collected ?

[Twistedmind]

Pushkin's nanny (and later-on house keeper) was Arina Rodionova, and old Izhorian peasant woman from village of Tsarskoye Selo.
There was no Izhorian peasnt women in Carsko selo. It was Imperial palace genius. ;)



Place is today known as town of Pushkin, it's just outside of St. Petersburg. She told lot of old, local, folk tales to Pushkin, who then wrote them as poems. All the local population at Tsarskoye Selo (also knows as Izhora hills) was Finnic back then, as was pretty much everyone else at Ingria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingria). Only the nobility, like Pushkin, spoke Russian (or often French) as native language. Thats the setup where Pushkin spent his childhood and younger years. Arina, the nanny, followed him pretty much all of her life.

Another fact you maybe never know, Puskin was from Moscow and spent childhood there. :picard1:



Lol, sure. Serbian folktales tell about kantele/gusli/Kanklės-playing Novgorodian merchants :eek:
:picard1:
Pushkin called his fairytales Songs of Western Slavs (he meant Southern). I am not here to fill any hole in yours education, but if you want to discuss about Pushkins literature, at least learn basic facts from his life.




You do realise that Izhorians fex. were actual Novgorodians, as were most of the North Russia's regions where the Bylinas were collected ?

Byliyny are collected in Southern and Central Russia. Could you learn that simple fact. And, no Novgorod was founded by Ilymen Slavs. Chud' and Merya lived close to them, not some "Izhorians".

Why do you discuss about things which you dont know. There is one thing to be proud on your people, and other to be ignorant.

[inactive_member]

Hweinlant

If you want to find similarities between Slavic and Finno-Ugrians your best selection will be Archangel or some Ural regions. There will be some elements from Finno-Ugrian folklore but on the whole they will not make any difference. Pushkin’s tales are very important to the folklore but they constitute a tiny fraction to all folklore.
Novgorodians lived further south of Izhora. The closest Finno-Ugrian tribes were Chud’ and Merja along upper shores of Volga which was within the reach of Novgorods.
Novgorodians were lmen Slavs who played a key role in the history of all eastern Slavs. There is plenty written and said about this tribe. You entitled to your opinion but it’s so inaccurate. :picard1:

[Hweinlant]

There was no Izhorian peasnt women in Carsko selo. It was Imperial palace genius. ;)


Oh geez. It's a village where the palace is. What do you think the word -selo means ?



Another fact you maybe never know, Puskin was from Moscow and spent childhood there. :picard1:


He was born in Moscov allright.



Pushkin called his fairytales Songs of Western Slavs (he meant Southern). I am not here to fill any hole in yours education, but if you want to discuss about Pushkins literature, at least learn basic facts from his life.


That is one series of his poems, and even more, it's not even part of his "Fairy tales"-series.

I suggest you learn the basics.



Byliyny are collected in Southern and Central Russia. Could you learn that simple fact. And, no Novgorod was founded by Ilymen Slavs. Chud' and Merya lived close to them, not some "Izhorians".


Man, how uninformed you are. Most of the Bylinas were collected from places like Archangelsk and even more from Olonets (Karelia). Olonets districts is still today majority ethnic Karelian.

Izhorians surely were Novgorodians par excellance, as they lived in of the the five districts of the city, "Votian fifth" (Votskaya pyatina in Russian). Votes were another Novgorod Finnic ethnicity.

At the same time when Russians were collecting their Bylinas at Eastern Karelia, Finns were collecting our Runos at Western Karelia. I know thing or two about this topic.

[Twistedmind]

Oh geez. It's a village where the palace is. What do you think the word -selo means ?

Thank you for teaching me about my language (in russian village is деревня dervnya, not село). But take a look at your village:

http://************/b57v8yc
Look at Wikipedia, buy encyclopedia, whatever. Carskye selo, despite name, was Imperial palace, and there was no any kind Izhorian peasant there.




He was born in Moscov allright.

And lived there most of his life.





That is one series of his poems, and even more, it's not even part of his "Fairy tales"-series.

:picard1:
This is about folktales. Not about Puškin. :picard1: Anyway, when it was written does not have particualr significance.




I suggest you learn the basics.

:rolleyes:





Man, how uninformed you are. Most of the Bylinas were collected from places like Archangelsk and even more from Olonets (Karelia). Olonets districts is still today majority ethnic Karelian.

:rotfl

Nope. They were gatherd from Cossacks. There is no Cossaks in Archangelsk.Stop making fool of yourself.




Izhorians surely were Novgorodians par excellance, as they lived in of the the five districts of the city, "Votian fifth" (Votskaya pyatina in Russian). Votes were another Novgorod Finnic ethnicity.

For God's sake buy atlas and see where is Novgorod. Or read some book. Novgorod was founded by Slavs.



At the same time when Russians were collecting their Bylinas at Eastern Karelia, Finns were collecting our Runos at Western Karelia. I know thing or two about this topic.
In Karelia only thing collected is Kalavela. Which is completly different thing.

[inactive_member]

Fellow Slavs, when you find strikingly similar folklore elements in your traditional cultures you ought to know those came to us from a Finno-Ugrian tribe Izhora . :D

[Hweinlant]

Novgorodians were lmen Slavs who played a key role in the history of all eastern Slavs. There is plenty written and said about this tribe. You entitled to your opinion but it’s so inaccurate.

I suggest you read some actual, modern academic Russian book about the topic of Novgorod. There never was any Ilmen Slavs, that is fairy tale if anything. Earliest Slavic inhabitants in the NW Russia (and also co-founders of Novgorod) were Slovenes (aka Veneds, aka Wends). Thats why Finns and Estonians still today call Russia: Venemaa and Venäjä.

Earliest known Finnic scripture is one of the Novgorod birch bark letters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_bark_letter_no._292

Novgorodcity btw was very multiethnic in nature and one of the largest cities & trading hubs of Northern Europe at the time (bigger than London in 1200-1300s). Even Hanseatic league had it's own Kontor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontor) there.

Novgorodland was areally about as big as Lithuania back then, which means really big. Large areas were strictly Finnic, even some part of modern day eastern Finland was part of Novgorod back then.

[Hweinlant]

Look at Wikipedia, buy encyclopedia, whatever. Carskye selo, despite name, was Imperial palace, and there was no any kind Izhorian peasant there.


Tsarskoye selo = Tsar's village. Original name of settlement was Saaren kylä (Island village), which was turned into Sarskoye selo (Сарское Село) in Russian and later on as Tsarskoye selo when the palace(s) were built there.

All of the peasents there were either Izhorians or Ingrian Finns. It is part of Ingria afterall.



This is about folktales. Not about Puškin. :picard1: Anyway, when it was written does not have particualr significance.


Nice to see you can admit your mistakes, even if in sneaky way.



Nope. They were gatherd from Cossacks. There is no Cossaks in Archangelsk.Stop making fool of yourself.


Most of the Bylinas were collected in the Northen Russia, and especially from the Olonets.

It's not that hard to look for the sources, easiest way is to type Bylina + Olonets in to google. Have fun.



For God's sake buy atlas and see where is Novgorod. Or read some book. Novgorod was founded by Slavs.


FGS learn some history.



In Karelia only thing collected is Kalavela. Which is completly different thing.

...and most of the Bylinas that pan-slavissist take so great pride of :rolleyes:

[inactive_member]

I suggest you read some actual, modern academic Russian book about the topic of Novgorod. There never was any Ilmen Slavs that is fairy tale if anything. Earliest Slavic inhabitants in the NW Russia (and also co-founders of Novgorod) were Slovenes (aka Veneds, aka Wends). Thats why Finns and Estonians still today call Russia: Venemaa and Venäjä.


Your argument about Novgorodians being called Venedi is a made-up BS. Maybe Finns called Novgorodians including all other Slavs as such but Slavs themselves used different names for different Slavic tribes.

The earliest written chronicle called the Tale of Bygone ( http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tale_of_Bygone_Years) written in 12 th century accurately accounted for all Slavic tribes lived in the west, south and east including Ilmen Slavs. Ilmen Slavs were called in the chronicle Il'menskie Slovene which is an old term.

Why would the author of the 12th century accurately accounting for the names of all Slavic tribes living in the Balkans, west and east yet making a mistake for Ilmen Slavs? The answer is simple: the author was was right! You probably use the term to refer to all Slavs including Ilmen Slavs.

Ilmen Slavs is the English term applied to them in English literature. Also, the very name of the city 'Novgorod' literately translates to as “The new city” . And practise what you preach -read academic sources that mention thousands of birch-barks un-earthed near Novgorod dating to 10-13 the century. The Novgorodian dialect is extinct which beared similarities to the dialect of Polabian Slavs living in western Baltic shore. That’s the latest theory according to the leading linguist expert from the Russian academy of sciences whose name is Anrei Zaliznyak. Enlighten yourself seeing the earliest scripts http://gramoty.ru/

Obviously Slavs settled the area around Novgorod much earlier starting at least from 6th century. There is plenty of archaeological evidence in Starya Ladoga and other places around Novgorod: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staraya_Ladoga

Nobody doubts the existence of the local Finno-Ugrian tribes in the area. Finnp-Ugrians played an important role in the economy of the region. Novgorodian Slavs were giving local hunters and collectors cliki-claki beads in exchange for furs and other goods the nature had to offer which were in demand on the markets of Kiev, Constantinopole, northern Europe and Volga settlements. Novgorod located on Volhkov River was a trading post connecting north to south having some rich and very powerful Boyars living in the city who later ruled the principiality of Novgorod. After the conquest of Novgorod, a couple of hundred years later St-Petersburg took the role of the most important city in the north.

Your argument about non-existing Ilmen Slavs calling them Venedi is ridiculous. Latvians call Russians and Belarusians Krievu and Baltkrievu respectively after another large Slavic tribe Krivichi that lived in Pskov (between Novgorod and Estonia) down south to Smolensk an Polotsk. Balts were living in the region for a long time. In addition, there are no written sources in Slavic langauges to the best of my knowledge in which those Ilmen Slavs were called Venedi. They were called Ilmen Slavs and later Novgorodians.

[Twistedmind]

Tsarskoye selo = Tsar's village. Original name of settlement was Saaren kylä (Island village), which was turned into Sarskoye selo (Сарское Село) in Russian and later on as Tsarskoye selo when the palace(s) were built there.

You could runt untill tomorrow, but it is Palace not village.



Nice to see you can admit your mistakes, even if in sneaky way.

Lol.




Most of the Bylinas were collected in the Northen Russia, and especially from the Olonets.

Exactly none. Center of Russian civilisation are towns of Golden ring. Google about it. :bored:



It's not that hard to look for the sources, easiest way is to type Bylina + Olonets in to google. Have fun.

:picard1:
Olonec verry Finnic sounding :D But like I said to you, first collections of them were agthered among Cossaks.



FGS learn some history.

Why should I? I spent 6 years learning it on University :bored:



...and most of the Bylinas that pan-slavissist take so great pride of :rolleyes::bored:
You mean one song from Olonec :D Do you know how many Bylinas there are?

[inactive_member]

The history lesson is of course off-topic.

Hweinlant Slavs from other countries living far away from Russia suggesting to you they are finding many similarities between Russian and their traditional cultures.

[Twistedmind]

The history lesson is of course off-topic.

Hweinlant Slavs from other countries living far away from Russia suggesting to you they are finding many similarities between Russian and their traditional cultures.

Small Estonian peope influence 300,000,000 population spread over few thousands kilometers. :D I guess similarities between Macedonian and Russian legends are fruit of Estonian influence. :D

[Hurrem sultana]

Where is Karl? cant believe he still has not said anything :D

[inactive_member]

Small Estonian peope influence 300,000,000 population spread over few thousands kilometers. :D I guess similarities between Macedonian and Russian legends are fruit of Estonian influence. :D

Such was the cultural might of Izhora people! :D

They had an influence on the traditional culture of Macedonian Slavs that migrated to the Balkans more than 1,000 years ago.

[Permafrost]

Oh geez. It's a village where the palace is.
Izhorians surely were Novgorodians par excellance, as they lived in of the the five districts of the city, "Votian fifth" (Votskaya pyatina in Russian). Votes were another Novgorod Finnic ethnicity.

Eh? Vodskaya pyatina a city district? Since when? I though it was an administrative division of Novgorodian lands made by the Muscowites in XV century :/

I'm sure Finnic people played a great role in Novgorodian culture, furthermore the "Chuds" are one of the three founding ethnicities of the Rus' lands if I'm not mistaken (the other two being Varangian Rus and Slavs), however to claim that Novgorodians were mostly Finnic is an exaggeration.

[Lisa]

Exactly none. Center of Russian civilisation are towns of Golden ring. Google about it.
Golden Ring - it's just a tourist route.


But like I said to you, first collections of them were agthered among Cossaks.
Nonsense.


You mean one song from Olonec :D Do you know how many Bylinas there are?
There are about 400 Russian bylinas - of which 317 from Olonets province.

[Twistedmind]

Golden Ring - it's just a tourist route.
And place where Russian national identity was born.



Nonsense.


There were Cossacks who were gathering them. What is point?



There are about 400 Russian bylinas - of which 317 from Olonets province.


Чтобы дать понятие о количестве былин, отметим статистику их, приведённую в «Истории Русской Словесности» Галахова. Одних былин киевского цикла собрано: в Московской губернии — 3, в Нижегородской — 6, в Саратовской — 10, в Симбирской — 22, в Сибири — 29, в Архангельской — 34, в Олонецкой — до 300. Всех вместе около 400, не считая былин новгородского цикла и позднейших (московских и других). Все известные нам былины по месту своего происхождении делятся на: киевские, новгородские и общерусские (более поздние).

Хронологически на первом месте, по Оресту Миллеру, следуют былины, рассказывающие о богатырях сватах (см. статью Богатыри). Потом идут те, которые называют киевскими и новгородскими: по-видимому, они возникли до XIV века. Затем идут былины вполне исторические, относящиеся к московскому периоду Русского государства. И, наконец, былины, относящиеся к событиям последних времён.

Последние два разряда былин не представляют особенного интереса и не требуют обширных объяснений. Поэтому ими, до сих пор, вообще мало занимались. Но огромное значение имеют былины так называемого новгородского и, в особенности, киевского цикла. Хотя нельзя смотреть на эти былины как на рассказы о событиях, действительно имевших когда-то место в таком виде, в каком они представляются в песнях: элемент чудесного вполне противоречит этому. Если же былины не представляются достоверной историей лиц, действительно живших когда-то на Русской земле, то их содержание надо непременно объяснять иначе.
They spoke about happenings in Kiyev. :bored:


Что касается места, где возникли былины, то мнения разделяются:самая распространённая теория предполагает, что былины — южнорусского происхождения, что их первоначальная основа южнорусская. Только со временем, вследствие массового переселения народа из Южной Руси на Русский Север, перенесены туда былины, а затем на первоначальной своей родине они были забыты, вследствие влияния других обстоятельств, вызвавших казацкие думы.
Против этой теории выступил Халанский, осуждая вместе с тем и теорию первоначального общерусского эпоса. Он говорит: «Общерусский древний эпос — такая же фикция, как и древний общерусский язык. У каждого племени был свой эпос — новгородский, словенский, киевский, полянский, ростовский (ср. указания Тверской летописи), черниговский (сказания в Никоновской летописи)». Все знали о Владимире, как о реформаторе всей древнерусской жизни, и все пели о нём, причём происходил обмен поэтическим материалом между отдельными племенами. В XIV и XV веках Москва стала собирательницей русского эпоса, который в это же время всё более и более сосредоточивался в киевский цикл, так как киевские былины произвели на остальные ассимилирующее влияние, вследствие песенной традиции, религиозных отношений и т. п.; таким образом в конце XVI века закончено было объединение былин в киевский круг (хотя, впрочем, не все былины к нему примкнули: к таким принадлежит весь новгородский цикл и некоторые отдельные былины, например о Суровце Суздальце и о Сауле Леванидовиче). Потом из Московского царства распространились былины во все стороны России путём обыкновенной передачи, а не эмиграции на север, которой не было. Таковы в общих чертах взгляды Халанского на этот предмет. Майков говорит, что деятельность дружины, выраженная в подвигах её представителей-богатырей, и есть предмет былин. Как дружина примыкала к князю, так и действия богатырей всегда стоят в связи с одним главным лицом. По мнению этого же автора, былины пели скоморохи и гудошники, приигрывая на звончатых яровчатых гуслях или гудке, слушали же их в основном бояре, дружина.

[inactive_member]

Find a poem, fairy-tale or poetry written by Pushkin and let's see how much of Finno-Ugrian we can find.


I will start with the famous 'U Lukomor'ya'.


У лукоморья дуб зеленый;
Златая цепь на дубе том:
И днем и ночью кот ученый
Все ходит по цепи кругом;
Идет направо — песнь заводит,
Налево — сказку говорит.

Там чудеса: там леший бродит,
Русалка на ветвях сидит;
Там на неведомых дорожках
Следы невиданных зверей;
Избушка там на курьих ножках
Стоит без окон, без дверей;
Там лес и дол видений полны;
Там о заре прихлынут волны
На брег песчаный и пустой,
И тридцать витязей прекрасных
Чредой из вод выходят ясных,
И с ними дядька их морской;
Там королевич мимоходом
Пленяет грозного царя;
Там в облаках перед народом
Через леса, через моря
Колдун несет богатыря;
В темнице там царевна тужит,
А бурый волк ей верно служит;
Там ступа с Бабою Ягой
Идет, бредет сама собой;
Там царь Кащей над златом чахнет;
Там русский дух... там Русью пахнет!
И там я был, и мед я пил;
У моря видел дуб зеленый;
Под ним сидел, и кот ученый
Свои мне сказки говорил.
Одну я помню: сказку эту
Поведаю теперь я свету...

Rusalka is present in Russian, Belarusian, Ukranian and folklore of southern Slavs. Maybe among other Slavic cultures.
Vityaz is in Russian, Ukranian and other southern Slavic folklore afaik
Baba Yaga is in all Slavic folklore. She is famous.
Oak is the important tree among all eastern Slavs and Poles.
Wolf is common in Russian and Belarusian folklore and southern Slavs afaik
The drink Med was popular among many Slavs.
Leshiy is common pagan deity to many Slavic cultures

Huts on chicken legs – Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Polish, Slovak folklore. Saami also built huts on chicken legs but it was a comon practice for people living near swamps and rivers to build such huts.

What's Finno-Ugrian in above tale poetry? Perhaps 'koldun' or 'bogatyr''? Both are common among other Slavic cultures.

[inactive_member]

In the last week I read on this discussion board about Slavs : Ukranians are Slavicised Turks, Belarusians are Slavicised Balts, Russian language is made up of 50% of Turkisms, traditional Russian folklore in which other Slavs find similarities is in fact Finnic. There were no Ilmen Slavs...It goes from one extreme exaggeration to another.

[Twistedmind]

In the last week I read on this discussion board about Slavs : Ukranians are Slavicised Turks, Belarusians are Slavicised Balts, Russian language is made up of 50% of Turkisms, traditional Russian folklore in which other Slavs is in fact Finnic etc. It goes from one extreme exaggeration to another.

Wait to see claims about Southern and Western Slavs. :D

[Lisa]

And place where Russian national identity was born.
Russian national identity includes Novgorod, Pskov, Smolensk, Tver, Tula, Ryazan, Arkhangelsk, Polotsk, Briansk etc.



They spoke about happenings in Kiyev. :bored:
Probably Because Kiev was capital of country.Unknown origin bylinas - but only in Northern and some central Russian used them. No other Slavic have bylinas - and even anything similar.

[inactive_member]

Russian national identity includes Novgorod, Pskov, Smolensk, Tver, Tula, Ryazan, Arkhangelsk, Polotsk, Briansk etc.

:picard1:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%BA

[Twistedmind]

Russian national identity includes Novgorod, Pskov, Smolensk, Tver, Tula, Ryazan, Arkhangelsk, Polotsk, Briansk etc.
Except Novgord, that cities are much younger and less importnant than Suzdal' Tver, Moscow, Ryazan'




Probably Because Kiev was capital of country.Unknown origin bylinas - but only in Northern and some central Russian used them. No other Slavic have bylinas - and even anything similar.
:picard1:
Serbian epic poetry? Few thousands of similar songs. :D

[Lisa]

.. Ukranians are Slavicised Turks, Belarusians are Slavicised Balts, Russian language is made up of 50% of Turkisms ..

Where did you read that crap? Belarusians does not are Slavicised Balts (probably only a small substrate on north part). Russian has only two hundred words of Turkic origin..

[Dombra]

Where would the Hungarians fit? Slavic side?

[Lisa]

:picard1:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%BA
Polotsk was originally a Russian city(Krivichis). In 13th century was occupied Lithuanians..


Except Novgord, that cities are much younger and less importnant than Suzdal' Tver, Moscow, Ryazan'

Seriously? Please stop talking nonsense - you do not know Russian history..

[inactive_member]

Where did you read that crap?

On this forum.

[Twistedmind]

Seriously? Please stop talking nonsense - you do not know Russian history..

Acctually I do unlike you. When Arkhangelsk is founded? Tula started its history as fortress of Ryazan.

[Lisa]

On this forum.


So what? По поводу 50% туркизмов ссылку дайте пожалуста..

[inactive_member]

Polotsk was originally a Russian city(Krivichis). In 13th century was occupied Lithuanians...

:picard1: There was no Russia in 13th century. The historical figures Rogvolod, Rogneda and Efrosinya Polotskaya are uknown to average Russians. They are very much known in Belarus. So, Polotsk is not part of your national identity. Polotsk was always settled by ancestors of Belarusians.

I am losing my patience with this member. :(

[inactive_member]

so what? По поводу 50% туркизмов ссылку дайте пожалуста..

Use search facility.

[Veneda]

По поводу 50% туркизмов ссылку дайте пожалуста..

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1318976&postcount=67

[Lisa]

:picard1: There was no Russia in 13th century. The historical figures Rogvolod, Rogneda and Efrosinya Polotskaya are uknown to average Russians. They are very much known in Belarus. So, Polotsk is not part of your national identity. Polotsk was always settled by ancestors of Belarusians.

I am losing my patience with this member. :(

People from Vitebsk / Polotsk region very close to Russian culture and anthropological type. Read Russian Chronicles - Polotsk part of ancient Russian continuum. Since the first years of Rus.


Use search facility.
Не понимаю - зачем вы написали , что якобы все здесь пишут , что "беларусы это балты, украинцы турки, 50% туркизмов.."- это то чего я например и не видела...Похоже у вас какой то комплекс.

[Lisa]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1318976&postcount=67

Thank Veneda. This is not serious and not even worth quoting ...

[inactive_member]

People from Vitebsk / Polotsk region very close to Russian culture and anthropological type. Read Russian Chronicles - Polotsk part of ancient Russian continuum. Since the first years of Rus..
People in rural areas of Smolensk and Briansk identified themselves as Litvins/Belarusians till early 20th century. Krivichi was used synonymously with Belarusians not long ago and it still is used as such among some circles . We had a journal called Krivich in early 20th century. The cultural link was broken after Moscow principality annexed Smolensk and Briansk from Polish-Lithuanian union. That’s how Smolensk an Briansk regions joined of what it would be your country later. Do you see now why people of Belarus an western Russia are anthropologically and culturally very similar? They were always the same people till they were separated. Today, Smolensk and Briansk are in Russia. Nobody is claiming it.

You were conquered by Varyags who had non-Slavic names: Rurik, Oleg and all their descendents till Ivan the Terrible. Belarusians were conquered by Lithuanians whose descendents adopted Slavic culture and language. You consider Rurik as your ruler, Belarusians and Lithuanians consider Lithuanian rulers as theirs. The situation is common all across Europe.

Rus' was always a loose union of many ethnicities in which about 22 different langauges spoken. It had its centre in Kyiv which is outside of Russia and Belarus today.

You are not in a position to discuss the subject which is off-topic anyway. So, spare me of your comments.

[Dacul]

Really interesting article!
However,in romanian folk tales I noticed lots of fairies ,emperors,heroes that are looking chivalaric-like and so on.

[morski]

Such was the cultural might of Izhora people! :D

They had an influence on the traditional culture of Macedonian Slavs that migrated to the Balkans more than 1,000 years ago.

:picard2:

[inactive_member]

:picard2:

Macedonian Slavs should be read as Slavs that live in Macedonia. Is the term incorrectly applied?

[Onur]

Find a poem, fairy-tale or poetry written by Pushkin and let's see how much of Finno-Ugrian we can find.

What's Finno-Ugrian in above tale poetry? Perhaps 'koldun' or 'bogatyr''? Both are common among other Slavic cultures.
Russians probably heard the term "bogatyr" from the Tatars of Golden Horde or from Cumans for the first time. This is a Turkic term, a rank and a title for heroic soldiers in the army, it`s bahadir.

I cant figure it out what is koldun atm but this word also sounds Turkic to my ears.

[Dacul]

This thread = Karl's and turks nightmare.
As you can see,turks are actually denationalized greeks+caucasian people.
And russians are closer to estonians,than estonians are to finns or to baltic nations,or to scandinavian nations.
:rofl:

[Onur]

This thread = Karl's and turks nightmare.
As you can see,turks are actually denationalized greeks+caucasian people.
And russians are closer to estonians,than estonians are to finns or to baltic nations,or to scandinavian nations.
:rofl:
Dacul, when Turks had their our own folktale books and legendary myths in Eurasia, Russians didn't even exist on earth.

The similarity between Greek&Armenian folktales with Turks can only be explained by single reason. It`s because they were our subject peoples for 500-800 years. They lived in our cultural sphere as minority groups.

[Twistedmind]

Dacul, when Turks had their our own folktale books and legendary myths in Eurasia, Russians didn't even exist on earth.

:picard1:
Buy calculator.
You mean stories about Ashina clan written in Sogadian language.
:D

[Chuck Norris]

Dacul, when Turks had their our own folktale books and legendary myths in Eurasia, Russians didn't even exist on earth.

The similarity between Greek&Armenian folktales with Turks can only be explained by single reason. It`s because they were our subject peoples for 500-800 years. They lived in our cultural sphere as minority groups.

pV7GAFFRKB0

Wow, doesn't Onur feel stupid.

[inactive_member]

Russians probably heard the term "bogatyr" from the Tatars of Golden Horde or from Cumans for the first time. This is a Turkic term, a rank and a title for heroic soldiers in the army, it`s bahadir.
Many words used in present days Slavic languages have common IE origins. There are similar words found in Sanskrit which is 3,500 years old. No European nation existed during that time.

According to the dictionary of etymology the word Bogatyr' is derived from ancient Turkic word "baɣatur". It's likely to come in Russian through Bulgarian language which had a significant influence on Russian language after eastern Slavs were baptised.

There is a dictionary on Turkism in Russian language. The first one was published in 1976. There is an update edition. In total there are probably about 1750-2000 Turkisms.


I cant figure it out what is koldun atm but this word also sounds Turkic to my ears.
Linguists have already published different dictionaries.

Regardless of the origins of the word 'Bogatyr' every nation has strong and brave people.

[inactive_member]

Dacul, when Turks had their our own folktale books and legendary myths in Eurasia, Russians didn't even exist on earth

The folklore of any European nation is much older than the nation itself. Europeans have elements in their folklore dating back to the time when there was EI group of people. Slavs and Balts have many similar elements in their folklore dating back to the time when there was proto-Balto-Slavic group etc.

[Hweinlant]

Your argument about Novgorodians being called Venedi is a made-up BS. Maybe Finns called Novgorodians including all other Slavs as such but Slavs themselves used different names for different Slavic tribes.


What time period you are referring here ? Novgorod was very multiethnic, like was the early Proto-Rus' from the Lake Ladoga.



The earliest written chronicle called the Tale of Bygone ( http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tale_of_Bygone_Years) written in 12 th century accurately accounted for all Slavic tribes lived in the west, south and east including Ilmen Slavs. Ilmen Slavs were called in the chronicle Il'menskie Slovene which is an old term.


Ilmen Slavs is nothing but corrupted reading of the chronicle, like you yourself wrote: Slovenes they were.



Why would the author of the 12th century accurately accounting for the names of all Slavic tribes living in the Balkans, west and east yet making a mistake for Ilmen Slavs?


He didnt. The later readers and translators of the chronicle are the ones who fucked up. Also keep in mind that Tale of Bygone Years was written in Kiev, not at Novgorod, so the geography and other relations provided are from Kiovan pov, not Novgorodian. Novgorod's First Chronicle doesnt even start until the Kievan state was allready in the zenith (1016 ad).



The Novgorodian dialect is extinct which beared similarities to the dialect of Polabian Slavs living in western Baltic shore.


Thats very likely where the these Wends aka SloVENEs came from. Also, they likely came via the Baltic Maritime route to Ladoga and thense south to Ilmajärvi (Illmen). They were not "areally" extension of the (east) Slavonic speaking groups living south of them.

Archeology doesnt yet really confirm that but there are other disciplines hinting into that direction. There fex. are much more really old, archaic Slavonic loanwords found in northern Finnic (Finnish, Karelian, Vepsian) than in southern Finnic (Estonian, Livonian, Votian). Even more so, those loanwords point rather to archaic Western Slavonic than Eastern Slavonic origin.



Obviously Slavs settled the area around Novgorod much earlier starting at least from 6th century. There is plenty of archaeological evidence in Starya Ladoga and other places around Novgorod.


There indeed were SloVENEs living midst the Finnic (Veps, Chud') and Norse in the market town of Aldeigjuborg. Some Kirivichi perhaps were there aswell. It was pretty much the same ingredients that later formed the Novgorod itself.

6th century is too old, there were no Slavic speakers north of Dnepr and the Slavic expansion towards Central Europe/Balkans was just starting.

Staraya Ladoga/Aldeigjuborg was originally Vepsian-Norse settlement, and it didnt even exist in 6th century. It was founded around 750 AD. Around the same time there was large scale migration from Western Finland to west and north coast of Ladoga (Aldeigjuborg is at southeast of Ladoga). Burials of these guys are characterised as "Warrior-Merchants". Scandinavians came there aswell (even bringing their wives and kids).

Vepsians were the locals and they had long established trading connections with the Volga Bulgaria. Rise of the lucrative business between the "Ladogan Rus'" and Volga Bulgaria could well be the reason why the trade-orientated Wends came along. If I'd have to speculate I'd say they came from Wolin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin), as it was part of the Viking age Baltic Sea trading network, which the Aldeigjuborg was also part of.



Nobody doubts the existence of the local Finno-Ugrian tribes in the area.


Novgorod city (Holmgarðr) itself grew up from 3 local villages or settlements and their marketplace. Original Konets (buroughs, "end's")) of the town are those 3 old villages.

-Nerevskiy konets (Nereva's end, inhabited by Meryans and Chud')
-Lyudin konets ("Peoples end'", mixed neighbourhood)
-Slovenskiy konets ("Slovenes end, here lived the Slovenes'")

Then city obviously grow, more ends were added etc. Main street connecting Nerev's end and Luydin's end was (and still is) called Chudintseva Street, thats "Street of the Chuds'". Slovene's end is located on the other side of the Volkhov-river, called the market-side (other side of river was/is called the Sofia-side). Slovene tongue became their lingua franca as it was de facto language of the trade. As you pointed out that this language is now dead (thanks to Muscovites and their Kievan based language), even tho' some of it's peculiarities are preserved in modern North Russian dialects.



Novgorod located on Volhkov River was a trading post connecting north to south having some rich and very powerful Boyars living in the city who later ruled the principiality of Novgorod.


There never was principality of Novgorod. Novgorod was feudal republic, local veche elected the Knyazes and booted them out if they so wished.

Calling Novgorod a trading outpost is hilarious.



After the conquest of Novgorod, a couple of hundred years later St-Petersburg took the role of the most important city in the north.


Inbetween, for few centuries, the most important city in the north was Kargopol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargopol), near Archangel.



Your argument about non-existing Ilmen Slavs calling them Venedi is ridiculous. Latvians call Russians and Belarusians Krievu and Baltkrievu respectively after another large Slavic tribe Krivichi that lived in Pskov (between Novgorod and Estonia) down south to Smolensk an Polotsk.

There never was such group of people as Illmen Slavs. Besides "Latvians call Russians and Belarusians Krievu and Baltkrievu respectively after another large Slavic tribe Krivichi " is exactly the reason why we call Russians Venäläiset because of our eastern neighbours, the Slovene-Wends.

[inactive_member]

What time period you are referring here ? Novgorod was very multiethnic, like was the early Proto-Rus' from the Lake Ladoga.

Any period of time from the settlement to the time Novgorodian republic was defeated by Moscow principality. It was settled mainly by Slavs.



Ilmen Slavs is nothing but corrupted reading of the chronicle, like you yourself wrote: Slovenes they were.

It's not a corrupted term. The original copy is in the library of St-Petersburg afaik. In modern Russian Novgorodians are still called Ilmenskie Slovene. It's English who adopted the term Ilmen Slavs because the term Slovene is translated in nearly all Slavic languages to Slavs. Hence, Ilmen Slavs. Understand?



He didn’t. The later readers and translators of the chronicle are the ones who fucked up. Also keep in mind that Tale of Bygone Years was written in Kiev, not at Novgorod, so the geography and other relations provided are from Kiovan pov, not Novgorodian. Novgorod's First Chronicle doesn’t even start until the Kievan state was already in the zenith (1016 ad).

Kiev and Novgorod had close ties. The cities were the two centres during Nestor's times. I also explicitly stated the author accurately named all Slavic tribes living in the west, south in the Balkans and in the east as well as other non-Slavic tribes. It's very unlikely the author made a mistake calling Slavs living in Novgorod 'Ilmenskie Slovene'. It very likely you are creating your own theory to support your wet fantasies about Slavs.



Thats very likely where the these Wends aka SloVENEs came from. Also, they likely came via the Baltic Maritime route to Ladoga and thense south to Ilmajärvi (Illmen). They were not "areally" extension of the (east) Slavonic speaking groups living south of them.

The term Wends is not applied to Novgorodians in Slavic or English literature. You are confused.



There never was principality of Novgorod. Novgorod was feudal republic, local veche elected the Knyazes and booted them out if they so wished.

Calling Novgorod a trading outpost is hilarious.

Hilarious is someone who is overconfidently making inaccurate comments. Novgorod became a Republic in 1136. Before 1136 Novgorod was ruled by princes as opposed to a monarch or Veche.



Inbetween, for few centuries, the most important city in the north was Kargopol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargopol), near Archangel.
Yes, for a very short time which is irrelavant.



There never was such group of people as Illmen Slavs. Besides "Latvians call Russians and Belarusians Krievu and Baltkrievu respectively after another large Slavic tribe Krivichi " is exactly the reason why we call Russians Venäläiset because of our eastern neighbours, the Slovene-Wends.

Slavs living in Novgorod were called in early chronicles and later literature Ilmenskie Slovene. That's how these Slavs are known to us. They are called 'Ilmen Slavs' in English literature. Venedi or whatever term you used for Ilmen Slavs or all other Slavs does not bother me.

The term 'Sarmatae Venedi' was recorded by a Roman author referring to Slavs living on Vistula River. There are two other terms Slavs were known by in the past - Sclavenes and Antes. Slavs was not a small single group living in the north whom Finns encountered. It was rather a large group of people forming different tribes and unions. One of the Slavic tribes settling around Novgorod is known to us Ilmenskie Slovene (to be exact). Damn it. :D

An analogous example would be a Slavic term "Chuchna" (it's not intended to offend you) applied to all Finns. Finns have different names for different Finnic tribes in Finnic language. I will be insisting to call a particular Finnic tribe 'Chuchna' because all Finns known to Slavs living in the north as such. It'd seem odd to you.

PS. Please spare me of the nonsense about Finno-Ugrians establishing Novgorod city.

[Twistedmind]

What time period you are referring here ? Novgorod was very multiethnic, like was the early Proto-Rus' from the Lake Ladoga.
Not really.




Ilmen Slavs is nothing but corrupted reading of the chronicle, like you yourself wrote: Slovenes they were.

:picard1:
Why you discuss about language you dont understand for start? Аm sorry, but this comment borders with stupidity. All Slavs, same with Ilymen ones were called Slovene, you know why? Because it is name of Slavs in Old Church Slavonic.




По мнозѣхъ же временѣхъ сѣлѣ суть словени по Дунаеви, кде есть нынѣ Угорьская земля и Болгарьская. От тѣхъ словенъ разидошася по земьли и прозвашася имены своими, кде сѣдше на которомъ мѣстѣ. Яко пришедше сѣдоша на рѣцѣ именемъ Моравѣ, и прозвашася морава, а друзии чесѣ нарекошася. А се ти же словѣне: хорвати бѣлии, серпь и хорутане[19] Волохомъ бо нашедшим на словены на дунайскые, и сѣдшимъ в нихъ и насиляющимъ имъ. Словѣне же ови пришедше и сѣдоша на Вислѣ, и прозвашася ляховѣ, а от тѣхъ ляховъ прозвашася поляне, ляховѣ друзии — лютицѣ, инии мазовшане, а инии поморяне.


Такоже и тѣ же словѣне, пришедше, сѣдоша по Днепру и наркошася поляне, а друзии деревляне, зане сѣдоша в лѣсѣхъ, а друзии сѣдоша межи Припѣтью и Двиною и наркошася дреговичи, и инии сѣдоша на Двинѣ и нарекошася полочане, рѣчькы ради, яже втечеть въ Двину, именемь Полота,[22] от сея прозвашася полочанѣ. Словѣне же сѣдоша около озера Илмера, и прозвашася своимъ именемъ, и сдѣлаша городъ и нарекоша и́ Новъгородъ. А друзии же сѣдоша на Деснѣ, и по Семи, и по Сулѣ[24] и наркошася сѣверо. И тако разидеся словенескъ языкъ, тѣмьже и прозвася словеньская грамота.

[inactive_member]

Аm sorry, but this comment borders with stupidity.
And he doesn't realise it.

[Twistedmind]

And he doesn't realise it.

Well person commenting about manuscripts written in language he does not know, must be stupid. :D OCS called Slovensk jezik, and older name derived from Slovo is preserved in Serbian, Polish, Slovene, Czech and Slovak. Slavyane appeared in XIV century I think under influence of foreign (Greek) sources, simila what happened with change of name of Russia, from Rusiya to Rossiya.
That's guy who speak about Izhorian peasants living in Imperial palace, where young Puškin was comming from Moscow :D

[inactive_member]

Well person commenting about manuscripts written in language he does not know, must be stupid. :D OCS called Slovensk jezik, and older name derived from Slovo is preserved in Serbian, Polish, Slovene, Czech and Slovak. Slavyane appeared in XIV century I think under influence of foreign (Greek) sources, simila what happened with change of name of Russia, from Rusiya to Rossiya.
That's guy who speak about Izhorian peasants living in Imperial palace, where young Puškin was comming from Moscow :D

Russians, Belarusians, Bulgarians call Slavs 'Slavyani'.
Poles and Ukrainians call Slavs 'Slovyani'.
All other Slavs call Slavs Slovene as far as I know. I have not checked the dictionaries.

More importantly, Russians are still applying the name 'Il'menskie Slovene' to Novgorodians closely resembling the original name as indicated in the passage you cited.

I was thinking that Slovene -> Slavyane was due to 'akanie' & 'yakanie' reduction from 'o' to 'a' and 'e' to 'ya' which was common to our languages. It is not necessarily the reduction and you may well be right about Greek influence.

Some of the comments he makes keeps me wondering if he is doing it deliberately. :D

[Twistedmind]

Russians, Belarusians, Bulgarians call Slavs 'Slavyani'.
Poles and Ukrainians call Slavs 'Slovyani'.
All other Slavs call Slavs Slovene as far as I know. I have not checked the dictionaries.

More importantly, Russians are still applying the name 'Il'menskie Slovene' to Novgorodians closely resembling the original name as indicated in the passage you cited.

I was thinking that Slovene -> Slavyane was due to 'akanie' & 'yakanie' reduction from 'o' to 'a' and 'e' to 'ya' which was common to our languages. It is not necessarily the reduction and you may well be right about Greek influence.

Some of the comments he makes keeps me wondering if he is doing it deliberately. :D
I know my friedn. :) No it is not akanye/okanye since it is like this:
OCS
Словѣне (Slověne), variant Словѣнѣ (Slověně) used by Eastern Slavic early writters. :)
CS (newer dialect, used today in Church Services in Serbia, Bulgaria, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus)

Славѧне (Славяне) ѧ represented nasal vowel (like Polish ę). :)


OCS словѣнє, Belarusian. славяне, Ukrainian. слов'яни, Bolgarian. славяни, Serbian. Словени, Croatian. Slaveni, Slovene. Slovani, Polish. Słowianie, Czech. Slované, Slovak. Slovania, Kashubian Słowiónie, Lower Sorbian Słowjenjo, Upper Serbian Słowjany

[Hayalet]

As you can see,turks are actually denationalized greeks+caucasian people.
Yeah, it turns out Turkish folk tales are more similar to Armenian or Greek ones than to Basque, Flemish, Icelandic or Swiss-German ones. What a surprise. :roll eyes

If other Turkic folk tales were analyzed, the Turkish certainly would have clustered with them. Especially between Oghuz Turks these things are near identical.

[Hweinlant]

Any period of time from the settlement to the time Novgorodian republic was defeated by Moscow principality. It was settled mainly by Slavs.


It certainly was not.



It's not a corrupted term. The original copy is in the library of St-Petersburg afaik. In modern Russian they are still called as Ilmenskie Slovene. It's the English that adopted the term Ilmen Slavs because the term Slovene is translated in nearly all Slavic languages to as Slav. Hence, Ilmen Slavs. Understand?


Yes, like I said. Corrupted translation of chronicle text. Tribal ethnonym Slovene(d) was trivialised into Slav. No such people as Illmen Slavs ever existed.



It's very unlikely the author made a mistake calling Slavs living in Novgorod as 'Ilmenskie Slovene'. It very likely you are creating your own theory to support your wet dreams about Slavs.


?



The term Wends is not applied to Novgorodians in Slavic or English literature. You are getting confused.


But it is in both Finnish and Estonian language. Thus Estonians call Russians in plural Vened , while Finns call them Venäläiset. Wends, from the self-appellation of Novgorodian Slovenes.



Hilarious is someone who is overconfidently making inaccurate comments. Novgorod became a Republic in 1136. Before 1136 Novgorod was ruled by princes as opposed to a monarch or Veche.


Yep, but you referring to Novgorod Republic.



Yes, for a very short time which is irrelavant.


How is it irrelevant ? For what?



Slavs living in Novgorod were called in early chronicles and later literature as Ilmenskie Slovene. That's how these Slavs are known to us. They are called 'Ilmen Slavs' in English literature too. Venedi or whatever term you used for Ilmen Slavs or all other Slavs does not bother me at all.


Because it didnt mean Slav in general, which is just a corrupted translation from the chronicle text. Slovene was their self-ethnonym. Why on earth would the chronicle writer wrote the long list of ethnonyms or exonyms such as Drevlyans, Severyans, Vyatichi etc and then use very general Slav for the Slovenes ? Makes no sense.



Slavs was not a small single group living in the north which Finns encountered. It was a large group of people made up of different tribes. One of the Slavic tribes settling around Novgorod is known to us Ilmenskie Slovene (to be exact). Damn it. :D


Exactly, and they came from Baltic sea, likely from location such as Wolin, and they were known as Wends by Finns and Scandinavians alike. Got it now ?



PS. You can spare me of the nonesense about Finno-Ugrians establishing Novgorod city.

So you refute the modern Russian archeology then ?

[Hweinlant]

That's guy who speak about Izhorian peasants living in Imperial palace, where young Puškin was comming from Moscow :D

You have serious dyslexia. There must have been hundreds of locals working at the Imperial site every single day. They also didnt come there from miles away but lived there in the vicinity.

[Hweinlant]

Not really.


Yes really. They were the original Rus'.

[Twistedmind]

You have serious dyslexia. There must have been hundreds of locals working at the Imperial site every single day. They also didnt come there from miles away but lived there in the vicinity.

:picard1:
You are just pathetic falsificator of history. Remember you tried to teach me about corruption of Manuscripts while:
1) You lack knowledge of OCS and Old East Slavic
2) You lack knowledge of Cyrillic paleography
3) You lack knowledge of history of Primary Chronicle

Now, lets remmeber about Imperial village, you claimed it to be village, not Imperial Palace, genius. Село (somewhat archaic in Russian, деревня is usual word) was in that name jut figure of speech. I dont think tere is need to quote your messages. :D

[Dombra]

Still going on about the old russians... -.-

[inactive_member]

But it is in both Finnish and Estonian language. Thus Estonians call Russians in plural Vened , while Finns call them Venäläiset. Wends, from the self-appellation of Novgorodian Slovenes.
Let’s try something else as you are unable to grasp some simple facts and arguments.

Slavs in the north called Finno-Ugrian people living in the region “Chukhno”. The term was mentioned in second Pskovian chronicle (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D1%83%D1%85%D0%BD%D0%B0) dated to 1,444. The same term is now often applied to all Finnic peoples. Can you imagine someone stating the real name of a well known Finnic tribe is 'Chuchno' because your neighbour Slavs having a long history applying the name to all Finns?:D



Because it didnt mean Slav in general, which is just a corrupted translation from the chronicle text. Slovene was their self-ethnonym. Why on earth would the chronicle writer wrote the long list of ethnonyms or exonyms such as Drevlyans, Severyans, Vyatichi etc and then use very general Slav for the Slovenes ? Makes no sense.

What do you mean corrupt translation? The name Slovene is written in the original chronicle held in the library.

The author called Novgorodians the general term Slovenes probably because Novgorodians identified themselves as such. The same way modern day people of Slovenia identifying themselves by the general term Slovenes. The same way females of Slovakia identifying themselves by the general term Slovenes (Slovenki). Does it make any sense now? :)

Once again, why would the author make a mistake if he accurately named all other tribes? The author lived in Kiev which had close ties to Novgorod at the time. The general term "Slovene" applied to people is not an unusual case as per examples above. On this basis, there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of the name applied to Novgorodians by the author.


So you refute the modern Russian archeology then ?

The Russian archeologists were right. Novgorod was settled by Slavs. The very name Novgorod mentioned in the chronicle is Slavic word. Or the name of the city is also lost in translation? :)

This is going to be fun. :D

[Twistedmind]

Yes really. They were the original Rus'.

Not genius. Original Rus were Varangians, and they came to Novgorod because Slavs called them there. Read chronicle.
Anyway, even Geneticists proved Swedish origin of Varangians. Subclade of Y-DNA of Rurikovichi is found in Gotland. Their distant patrilineal cousins.

[inactive_member]

In addition to my lost post. There are around 1000 birch-barks un-earthed in Novgorod and Pskov regions dating to the 11-14 the centuries. Nearly every single birch-bark is written in Slavic. The birch-barks were authored by people from all walks of life.
One would think something could have been found written in Finno-Ugrian or Scandinavian if the city was settled by those peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_bark_manuscript#Russian_texts

A large collection translated in modern language: www.gramoty.ru

:)

[Mans not hot]

Hweinlant used to troll Slavs from other forum with his bullshit, now he's doing the same thing to you. Why are you feeding him? Just ignore or trolling him till he'll fade away.

[lI]

This thread = Karl's and turks nightmare.
As you can see,turks are actually denationalized greeks+caucasian people.
And russians are closer to estonians,than estonians are to finns or to baltic nations,or to scandinavian nations.
:rofl:
You cannot claim that Estonians are closer to Russians than to the Baltic people because Lithuanians were not sampled in the study. Latvians clustering with Germans is not a representation of any an ancient node but only the fact that Latvia was occupied and ruled by German barons for many centuries - that's a recent history, the German crusaders first got there only in the 12th century.
It goes in line with linguistics very well, Latvians were culturally less conservative than Estonians in the past:

1526-1767 German loanword stems in Estonian
3000 German loanword stems in Latvian


Knowing Lithuanian folk very well, as well as knowing a bit about Estonian, Slavic & Germanic folk, I'd be willing to bet my ass that Lithuanian folk tales would cluster in between the former two.



These comments seemed noteworthy from the discussion in Dienekes' blog:
The groups that this methodology picked up like Latvians, Germans and Danes or Greeks, Turks and Armenians are chronologically shallow and do not go back further than the Middle Ages. The problem is that the way the folktales are compared picks up superficial similarities and misses deeper resemblances. Levi-Strauss analyzes this problem in his "Mythologiques" especially in volume three, "The Origin of Table Manners."
Couldnt the connection between Latvian and German fairy tales base on the Teutonic Order?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Teutonic_Order_1260.png

That would aswell explain the elevated level of U106 ("Germanic" R1b clade) in Latvians compared to its neighbours, like is claimed by this map:
http://www.disnorge.no/cms/system/files/offentlige_filer/Haplogroup-R1b-U106%2520Eupedia.gif

Nasty, nasty, I thought the concept of this type of order is... militaric MONKS?
Why do they spread DNA to wildling girls behind the wall? ;-)

[inactive_member]

I found a reference to Finnic people in Alexander Pushkin's poetry. :)

По мшистым, топким берегам
Чернели избы здесь и там,
Приют убогого чухонца;

— Александр Пушкин , «Медный всадник»

[Hweinlant]

Now, lets remmeber about Imperial village, you claimed it to be village, not Imperial Palace, genius. Село (somewhat archaic in Russian, деревня is usual word) was in that name jut figure of speech. I dont think tere is need to quote your messages. :D

You just cant stop humiliating yourself ?



In 1609–1702, on the place of Catherine Palace stood a Swedish estate Sarskaya Manor (Russian: Сарская мыза, Finnish: Saari mojs, Swedish: Sarishoff meaning "high place"). It was a small estate, which consisted of a wooden house, household annexes, and a modest garden divided by two perpendicular avenues into four squares. This estate originated from an earlier settlement, which was mentioned in church inventories of 1501 and marked on maps drawn for Boris Godunov as Saritsa (Russian: Сарица). This name later transformed to Sarskaya Manor, then to Saar Village, and finally became the Tsarskoye Selo (meaning "Tsar's Village" in Russian).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushkin,_Saint_Petersburg

[Hweinlant]

Not genius. Original Rus were Varangians, and they came to Novgorod because Slavs called them there. Read chronicle.
Anyway, even Geneticists proved Swedish origin of Varangians. Subclade of Y-DNA of Rurikovichi is found in Gotland. Their distant patrilineal cousins.

Rus' =/= Varangians. Varangians = Lifeguard regiment of Byzantine emperors aka Τάγμα των Βαραγγίων/Tagma ton Varangion. This term was then extended to all mercenaries who were active also in the Old Rus'. Mainly Nordic people, but also Slavs and Balts. Later on other people, such as English and French also served in the Varangian Guard. During the late days of the Varangian Guard it was infact mostly English enterprise.

Rurik's Y-dna (which is same as mine) has nothing to do with that, it's just that you dont have a clue about the critical academic studies of Primary Chronicle. Anyhow, PVL is just one of the many sources available today.

Rus' was a multinational tribal federation, sort of like early trade union for the guys trading furs/pelts and metals on the east European river routes, between Baltic sea <-> Volga Bulgaria.

This group originated at Lake Ladoga, long before the Novgorod was even a real city. Their HQ was Aldeigjuborg/Staraya Ladoga. From there they attacked the Turko-Slavic Khazarian market town, Kiev, and took it over.

I could write lot more about it, and about the processes that led to Rus' but I'm going to keep this simple.

Arabian geographer and historian, Al-Masudi (896-956) described the Rus' in his major work: The Meadows of Gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Meadows_of_Gold).



"The Rus consist of many peoples, who fall into different categories. Among them are a species called al-Lawdugana, and they are the most numerous. They have trading relations with the countries of al-Andalus, Rumiya, Constantinople, and the Hazars."


1) Rus' are multiethnic group 2) Largest group of Rus' is from Ladoga 3) They trade far and wide.

In same book the author also tells us what the word Rus' means and that it is indeed the Ladogans, who were the ones in contact with Bysant:



" The breadth of it [the Sound] is ten miles, and there lies a town of ar-Rum called al-Musannat ; it blocks the way for those ships of al-Kawdukana and other groups of ar-Rus who arrive upon that sea. Ar-RŸum call them Arusya, which means "the Reds". "


al-Kawdukana is just misspelled al-Lawdugana, as has been pointed out by Håkan Stang etc. Anyhow, the Rus of Ladoga are known as "The Reds" by the Bysantines (Greeks). Keep this in mind, I'll come that later.

Then we can have a look at the Primary Chronicle which you claim so deep knowledge of , as it tells us who were the Rus'.

Browse to the year 882 AD (6390 from the creation). Oleg is invading the Khazarian market-town Kiev:



Oleg went off on a military expedition, having taken along with him many warriors:
Varangians, Chud', Slovenians, Meryans, Ves' and Krivichi. He came to Smolensk with the Krivichi, took power in the town, and garrisoned it with his men. (...)

... And Oleg settled in Kiev, ruling it, and Oleg said: “This shall become Mother to the Russian towns.” Along with him were Varangians, and Slovenians, and others, called Rus


1) First the army takes over the Smolensk, here the Krivichi is left out the army and garrisoned. 2) Next step is Kiev, which is taken over. 3) Olegs army consisted of Varangians (foreign mercenaries), Slovenians (Slovene of Novgorod) and the OTHERS known as Rus'. I bolded the others for you, to ease up this a bit :rolleyes:

Pay especially close attention to the Ves', annalistic name for Vepsians. Because the "the Reds", Rus', that is, comes from their language: ruske, meaning red.

[lI]

Ar-RŸum call them Arusya, which means "the Reds".Anyhow, the Rus of Ladoga are known as "The Reds" by the Bysantines (Greeks). Keep this in mind, I'll come that later.

Pay especially close attention to the Ves', annalistic name for Vepsians. Because the "the Reds", Rus', that is, comes from their language: ruske, meaning red.
Is it actually an established fact that it comes from this Indo-European loanword in Vepsian or just your speculation?

In Lithuanian rausvas, rusvas means reddish (not a loaword of any sorts (http://etimologija.baltnexus.lt/?w=rausvas) - also, Old Church Slavic rusъ (*roudh-s-o-) `reddish, blond'; Russian rysyj `reddish blond' (http://dnghu.org/indoeuropean.html)).

[Twistedmind]

You just cant stop humiliating yourself ?

:bored:
Nah, I think you have cool hat. Do you want some cracker?

Link, person with whom you are trying to discuss is semiliterate troll. Just ignore him. ;)

[member]

Slavs have never called themselves Wends. Those were Germanic people who did. The Finnish word for Russians likely originates the old name form of Vyatichi tribe. Or Scandinavians brought this name and applied it to Slavs living in NW Russia. It has nothing to do with supposed migrations of Slavs living by the Baltic coast to Northwest Russia like some Finns love to claim.

[Midori]

Nvm

[Mans not hot]

Slavs have never called themselves Wends. Those were Germanic people who did. The Finnish word for Russians likely originates the old name form of Vyatichi tribe. Or Scandinavians brought this name and applied it to Slavs living in NW Russia. It has nothing to do with supposed migrations of Slavs living by the Baltic coast to Northwest Russia like some Finns love to claim.
:rolleyes:

[Twistedmind]

How come they lumped all Yugoslavs into one category? We're not all the same genetically.

This is about folklore, and from that point all Slavs cluster pretty close. Anyway, Eastern vs Western South Slavs gap is not that big.

[Midori]

This is about folklore,

Ohhh right. I didn't notice that, I thought it was about genetics. My bad :eusa_doh:

[Mans not hot]

Ohhh right. I didn't notice that, I thought it was about genetics. My bad :eusa_doh:
Remember, read the topic next time before you'll know what you're talking about, lol.

[Midori]

Remember, read the topic next time before you'll know what you're talking about, lol.

This new forum is messing with my brain.

[Mans not hot]

This new forum is messing with my brain.
Indeed... *facepalm*