Classify "Dark" Calabrian girl.

[Scholarios]

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/599590_365465646840857_427580801_n.jpg

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/393883_2518984505512_1218955018_n.jpg

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253163_10100161688696493_3540026_n.jpg

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/32025_394764541438_5906731_n.jpg

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/41_528154382363_5193_n.jpg

100% known Calabrian ancestry with surname occurring in Rhegia Calabria 83 times. Where does she pass? Is she a typical Calabrian? Ancestry from where beyond Calabria?

No posts saying she is "suntanned" will be taken seriously.

[Sikeliot]

She looks Indian or Bengali. Very atypical.

In reality she is probably some sort of Berberid/Med/Alpine mixture and very tanned but she looks Bengali.

[Scholarios]

She looks Indian or Bengali. Very atypical.

In reality she is probably some sort of Berberid/Med/Alpine mixture and very tanned but she looks Bengali.

This is the type of Calabrian girl I am talking about when I spoke in the other thread. I think she's not common but I wouldn't call her rare. This kind of look though is rare in Greece, at least among native population. But I have seen it in Southern Italians sometimes, at least among the diaspora.

Berber seems the obvious source, but then again I am not sure how common this look is among modern Tunisians. The Turkish girl yesterday could pass for High-caste Indian, but see I do not see anything Indian about her. She looks more African to me.

[Musso]

what's going on with her nose?

[Sikeliot]

If I didn't know better I'd be classifying her as Veddid and thinking South India or Bangladesh. I'm not even kidding. She looks like she is from the Indian subcontinent. I can think of three Indian girls I know just like her.

[Scholarios]

If I didn't know better I'd be classifying her as Veddid and thinking South India or Bangladesh. I'm not even kidding. She looks like she is from the Indian subcontinent. I can think of three Indian girls I know just like her.

Her surname occurs 23 times in Reggio, 17 in Campo Calabro, 16 in Villa San Giovanni. She's of two Calabrian origin parents settled among Diaspora Calabrians. Interesting about the Bengali. Not even North India you think?

[Sikeliot]

She could be anywhere in the Indian subcontinent but I would have classified her as Veddid.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Just because her surname is Calabrian, doesn't insinuate that she isn't mixed. Her mother could be South Asian. I'm not exaggerating when I say that this phenotype is extremely rare in Italians.

[Sikeliot]

She could pass as Gypsy too.

[Scholarios]

Just because her surname is Calabrian, doesn't insinuate that she isn't mixed. Her mother could be South Asian. I'm not exaggerating when I say that this phenotype is extremely rare in Italians.

Let's just say I am 100% sure that her mother is not South Asian. She is 100% South Italian.

She's not that rare, but not common either.

[EagleAtHeart]

Yeah, she's an Italian gypsy.

[asingh]

Apart from her skin-tone, I hardly see anything Indian in here. Not even Weddoid, the nasal flange is different, and the eyes have a different shape, though hinting at Mongoloid. But again, she might have ancestry up the lines, from SA. But SA is huge.

[Scholarios]

what's going on with her nose?

her nose isn't that different than arturo gatti

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Arturo_Gatti_24_November_2002.jpg

Just her coloring is darker I think...

[EagleAtHeart]

Let's just say I am 100% sure that her mother is not South Asian. She is 100% South Italian.

She's not that rare, but not common either.

You're lying.

The Facebook account is from someone in South America. You can see a mestizo with her.

But even still, she doesn't look mestizo, definitely some australoid

[Scholarios]

You're lying.

The Facebook account is from someone in South America. You can see a mestizo with her.

But even still, she doesn't look mestizo, definitely some australoid

No need to call me a liar. You didn't find out any secret information. she's traveling in South America, but she is North American. Both parents South Italian... Even you said she's not Mestizo looking. Let's just say I know personally her parents and their ancestry. Both South Italian, one dark, one light, but neither as dark as her. She is not "South American" but I assume she fits in there in some places.

[Scholarios]

Apart from her skin-tone, I hardly see anything Indian in here. Not even Weddoid, the nasal flange is different, and the eyes have a different shape, though hinting at Mongoloid. But again, she might have ancestry up the lines, from SA. But SA is huge.


I agree. She doesn't look Indian except in the most vaguest definition, perhaps a clue to Gyspy ancestry.

[EagleAtHeart]

her nose isn't that different than arturo gatti

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Arturo_Gatti_24_November_2002.jpg

Just her coloring is darker I think...

Arturo Gatti (RIP) was clearly part gypsy


Mother:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/gatti2.jpg

[EagleAtHeart]

No need to call me a liar. You didn't find out any secret information. she's traveling in South America, but she is North American. Both parents South Italian... Even you said she's not Mestizo looking. Let's just say I know personally her parents and their ancestry. Both South Italian, one dark, one light, but neither as dark as her. She is not "South American" but I assume she fits in there in some places.

The account has a Spanish name too, but regardless that girl is South Asian.

[Scholarios]

The account has a Spanish name too, but .

??? if the account has a spanish name, it's obviously a south american person's account. (She herself is from Midwest United States) But her surname and mother's surname is listed here and in several other places in Calabria.



http://www.italyworldclub.com/calabria/reggiocalabria/santalessio.htm

[RussiaPrussia]

gypsy with a bit of nordid influence

[RMuller]

She probably is adopted like Snooki.

[Prince Carlo]

This woman is clearly not 100% native

[bimo]

Let's just say I am 100% sure that her mother is not South Asian. She is 100% South Italian.

She's not that rare, but not common either.

sorry but i never seen such italians neither from south or north , and sure she is not pure italian

[Scholarios]

She's pure Italian. Of course she may have gypsy ancestry etc. but that doesn't mean she's not Italian.

[Prince Carlo]

She's pure Italian. Of course she may have gypsy ancestry etc. but that doesn't mean she's not Italian.

:picard1::picard2:

[Corvus]

Impossible she is Italian, I have never seen Italians looking like her.
In school we had a guy from Calabria named Giovanni and he was always teased
because he was so dark, but nothing compared to her

[Scholarios]

I don't know what to say guys. I'm not being dishonest here. Her surname is Calabrian. Her dad looks like a little Joe Pesci. Mom is non-distinct. Genetics is weird sometimes.

We had another Calabrian guy in school who looked like her. But very rough hair. A smart ass I remember. Anyways, this is where myths about Hannibal's " black soldiers" raping Italians during the Punic Wars comes from. That's bullshit of course, this girl is rare I guess, but she exists.

You know that if we do a search we can find other Italians who look like her I'm sure. Not many, but some do. Calabria is an isolated place way down there. Some Arabs got caught, forced to convert to Catholicism, then intermarry with the same 1900 people for 450 years and you can get this look. Throw in a gypsy ancestor and even better...

[Mortimer]

she Looks italian to me except in the last Picture where she Looks Bengali but that is from Close up and distorts her Features. also she is darkest in the last Picture. in the first Picture for example not that much. i guess her Skin tone to be inbetween olive and light Brown and she does look sort of southern italian. if we dont look at last Picture. in the last Picture she really Looks Bengali of some kind

[Corvus]

Look at these Southern Italians. They tan enormously, but still look kind of different:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/431114_2794281537374_1235647087_n.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/551316_3336724230318_104280216_n.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NEiMZ8KgC-0/Tp30aavQhvI/AAAAAAAADSE/F0e9pdOEIOg/s1600/Verduci+-+studenti+17+ottobre+2011.JPG

http://www.savutoweb.it/www/images/stories/Politica/andrea_bruni.jpg

[bimo]

^^^ i can tan better ;) :D

[MM81]

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/393883_2518984505512_1218955018_n.jpg

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253163_10100161688696493_3540026_n.jpg

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/41_528154382363_5193_n.jpg

100% known Calabrian ancestry with surname occurring in Rhegia Calabria 83 times. Where does she pass? Is she a typical Calabrian? Ancestry from where beyond Calabria?

No posts saying she is "suntanned" will be taken seriously.
This girl is as italian as Giancarlo Esposito...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Giancarlo_Esposito_2012_cropped.jpg/220px-Giancarlo_Esposito_2012_cropped.jpg
:picard1::picard1:
Why are new worlders always so obsessed with this "she's irish, italian, french etc." limerick that leads us nowhere, since a plenty of new worlders are obviously mixed with the whole known globe?
I don't want to sound mean, guys, but I've seen more unlikely italians, irish, french, serbians, etc. etc. on this site, than in all my life... :rolleyes: And I'm born and raised in Italy, and I've travelled through the whole damned Europe...

[Sikeliot]

I still think she looks Bengali.

Most of the darkest/most exotic Calabrese have almost Armenoid features and look kind of Armenian if anything.. this girl looks Australoid influenced.

A dark Calabrese would be like this:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/2045_3917733389033_1752289538_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/480109_436565883081152_924491317_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/18064_1246375479584_1799501_n.jpg

[Mortimer]

I still think she looks Bengali.

Most of the darkest/most exotic Calabrese have almost Armenoid features and look kind of Armenian if anything.. this girl looks Australoid influenced.

A dark Calabrese would be like this:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/2045_3917733389033_1752289538_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/480109_436565883081152_924491317_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/18064_1246375479584_1799501_n.jpg

she doesnt look australoid to me at all
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/393883_2518984505512_1218955018_n.jpg

she Looks what she is, southern italian. the last Picture distorts her Features because she is smiling and it from very Close taken

[MM81]

she doesnt look australoid to me at all
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/393883_2518984505512_1218955018_n.jpg

she Looks what she is, southern italian. the last Picture distorts her Features because she is smiling and it from very Close taken
Like Caesar would say... Tu quoque IM, fili mi! :D
She's clearly mixed. She has clear and evident exotic features.
Girls like her are not uncommon, yes... in the recent extraeuropean immigrant communities of Italy.
I have no agenda, neither am I a racist. But reality is reality... And she's what many new worlders are, she's like many other americans, with clear multiple ancestry. Most of her ancestors were probably from Calabria, so she identifies more with Calabria than with other corners of the world. But her admixture speaks for itself.

[Boiorix]

There is something negroid in that girl.

[Scholarios]

Sorry guys. She's Italian, she's not black or Bengali. I'm sure she'd be surprised to hear it. She did learn Spanish and travel in Latin America though.

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/41_528154337453_6486_n.jpg?dl=1
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/2486_618895716003_8357_n.jpg?dl=1

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/281315_10101052762652143_94748177_n.jpg?dl=1

http://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=720272241633&id=14228893&set=t.14228893&__user=730662473

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/32025_394786166438_5069042_n.jpg?dl=1

[Corvus]

We should better leave this poor girl alone.
She is extremly exotic looking for an Italian and
I kind of feel pity for her.

If she would identiy as an Indian or Pakistani there would be nothing wrong
but as an Italian she will always face credibility problems

[Scholarios]

Like Caesar would say... Tu quoque IM, fili mi! :D
She's clearly mixed. She has clear and evident exotic features.
Girls like her are not uncommon, yes... in the recent extraeuropean immigrant communities of Italy.
I have no agenda, neither am I a racist. But reality is reality... And she's what many new worlders are, she's like many other americans, with clear multiple ancestry. Most of her ancestors were probably from Calabria, so she identifies more with Calabria than with other corners of the world. But her admixture speaks for itself.

You'll have to take my word for it that she's not mixed and also have no agenda I can confidently say you are wrong about this with all due respect.

I guess only Greeks and Normans left any genetic trace in South Italy? Anyway, she looks Italian, just some features came out stronger than others.

[MM81]

I guess only Greeks and Normans left any genetic trace in South Italy? Anyway, she looks Italian, just some features came out stronger than others.
I don't deny you know her, and, as I wrote before, I don't want to be mean, and I apologize in that case. But she doesn't look like exotic calabrians.
I still think she has some amerindian, or asian ancestor. Her features are just partially caucasoid, as exotic calabrians could show armenoid, or in a fewer cases berberid features.

[MM81]

We should better leave this poor girl alone.
She is extremly exotic looking for an Italian and
I kind of feel pity for her.

If she would identiy as an Indian or Pakistani there would be nothing wrong
but as an Italian she will always face credibility problems
Well to be honest, we have a lot of immigrants from India, Pakistan etc. who look like her, and nobody mocks them or treat them bad, except a few shitheads of course, that you could find anywhere in the world. We are a tolerant society, she shouldn't be afraid of anything...

[Corvus]

Well to be honest, we have a lot of immigrants from India, Pakistan etc. who look like her, and nobody mocks them or treat them bad, except a few shitheads of course, that you could find anywhere in the world. We are a tolerant society, she shouldn't be afraid of anything...

Good to hear. Seems Italy is a tolerant country. I heard other stories but ok you will know it better. Apart from that, she lives in the US and not in Italy if I recall it correctly.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

This can only be settled through an autosomal DNA test.

[Sikeliot]

I can accept that she may just be a realllly atypical Calabrese, but honestly of the usual "dark" Calabrese they look quite close to Armenians, not to this girl.

[Anthropologique]

Indian white mix. Not native to Italy.

[Gospodine]

She looks more like a biracial/triracial New Worlder rather than a South Asian.

[Anthropologique]

I've seen mulatto/ mestizo types running around Flanders and Brittany saying they are Flemish, Breton, French... These are people who, by plain sight, are not genetically indigenous to Europe, yet they insist they're native.:picard1:

[Slycooper]

That is not an Italian.

[Sikeliot]

Maybe she was adopted by a Calabrese family.

[Anthropologique]

I can accept that she may just be a realllly atypical Calabrese, but honestly of the usual "dark" Calabrese they look quite close to Armenians, not to this girl.

For all of Southern Italy, she's quite atypical. There has to be recent admixture.

[Sikeliot]

I agree. There is nothing in the genetic composition of Calabria to account for that appearance. Anatolian/Caucasus and South Euro Med genes will not come out looking like that under any circumstance.

[Gospodine]

In any case, I see South Asians on a daily basis and she really doesn't resemble them in anyway aside from pigmentation. But there she has a much more even complexion, compared to most Indians, which suggest she tans easily.

I would have mistaken her for a Peruvian.

[Sikeliot]

I don't honestly believe she is fully Italian. Even the most exotic Sicilian looks more Caucasoid than she does.

[Ibericus]

She looks Latin-American, like Mestiza

[evon]

She could pass as Gypsy too.

Was going to say, she must have some Roma ancestry, or atleast a form of South asian connection...

[Sikeliot]

Was going to say, she must have some Roma ancestry, or atleast a form of South asian connection...

I personally believe so. I don't think she is an ethnic Italian. It'd be unreasonable to believe so given the genetic composition of southern Italy.

[Anthropologique]

Yes, she could be Roma, or part Roma.

[Aquafina]

She's Italian?

Atypical by far.

[kabeiros]

You'll have to take my word for it that she's not mixed and also have no agenda I can confidently say you are wrong about this with all due respect.

I guess only Greeks and Normans left any genetic trace in South Italy? Anyway, she looks Italian, just some features came out stronger than others.
Why did you pick the most weird looking girl and post her as a southern Italian example? What is the purpose of all this? :confused:

[Roy]

She can't be Roma. Polish Gypsies are one of the darkest in Europe but she doesn't resemble them. She looks Colombian/Venezuelan to be honest.

[Scholarios]

kabeiros: I feel the exact opposite, why does everyone post the same Sicilians who look like Messenians and talk about continuity with people they want to be connected with and how population movements happened to everyone else except their ancestors. It's kind of ironic. And she's not that weird looking.

This Is an anthropology forum right? I mean, I know there are several viewpoints here, but it's not strictly a Nazi-forum, right ?

[Aquafina]

I feel the exact opposite, why does everyone post the same Sicilians who look like Messenians and talk about continuity with people they want to be connected with and how population movements happened to everyone else except their ancestors. It's kind of ironic. And she's not that weird looking.

This Is an anthropology forum right? I mean, I know there are several viewpoints here, but it's not strictly a Nazi-forum, right ?

Not Nazi. I'm a Jew. :p Post an exotic Italian if you wish to! Just understand that she isn't typical for them.

[Sikeliot]

I am just saying even for exotic south Italians she is VERY atypical.

[Sikeliot]

The typical "exotic" south Italian is an Armenoid type generally like Leon Panetta or in some cases Berberid influence. This girl honestly doesn't even look full Caucasoid let alone European.

[Slycooper]

This girl looks indian.

[evon]

She can't be Roma. Polish Gypsies are one of the darkest in Europe but she doesn't resemble them. She looks Colombian/Venezuelan to be honest.

You must not have seen many Roma then :P

Here are some "dark" Roma from around Europe:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Romani_people_Lviv_Ukraine.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3176/2764547071_c38b500e1f_b.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zrPI8N_U6Rw/TCu5aaou41I/AAAAAAAAA8U/SjvI6Wm_RFE/s1600/RomaFamily_WaitingEviction.jpg
http://www.fondaciadonboskobg.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/DSC03982.jpg



This girl looks indian.

I agree..

[Scholarios]

Not Nazi. I'm a Jew. :p Post an exotic Italian if you wish to! Just understand that she isn't typical for them.

I'm sure you aren't a nazi Aqua, I was just curious about some of the comments that questioned my motives behind posting the photos. to be honest, i feel kind of bad about it . i didn't expect the response.

[Aquafina]

I'm sure you aren't a nazi Aqua, I was just curious about some of the comments that questioned my motives behind posting the photos. to be honest, i feel kind of bad about it . i didn't expect the response.

No reason to feel bad :)

[Scholarios]

I don't honestly believe she is fully Italian. Even the most exotic Sicilian looks more Caucasoid than she does.

see, Sikeliot, people who looked like this raided and colonized parts of Southern Italy from 8th Century to 18th Century (Barbary Pirates)

http://www.thenational.ae/deployedfiles/Assets/Richmedia/Image/SaxoPress/AD20130113891717-The_Tunisian_ca.jpg

http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20121129/reportint20121129160929720.jpg

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/files/images/tunisians136037936pk.jpg


So to find someone who might have some characteristics like that, however small, is not out of the question. They are not even close to the dominant type but people saying she is clearly not italian,or something absurd like she is "american indian" i just scratch my head.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Aghlabids_Dynasty_800_-_909_(AD)_-_Arabic.svg/667px-Aghlabids_Dynasty_800_-_909_(AD)_-_Arabic.svg.png

[Anthropologique]

see, Sikeliot, people who looked like this raided and colonized parts of Southern Italy from 8th Century to 18th Century (Barbary Pirates)

http://www.thenational.ae/deployedfiles/Assets/Richmedia/Image/SaxoPress/AD20130113891717-The_Tunisian_ca.jpg

http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20121129/reportint20121129160929720.jpg

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/files/images/tunisians136037936pk.jpg


So to find someone who might have some characteristics like that, however small, is not out of the question. They are not even close to the dominant type but people saying she is clearly not italian,or something absurd like she is "american indian" i just scratch my head.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Aghlabids_Dynasty_800_-_909_(AD)_-_Arabic.svg/667px-Aghlabids_Dynasty_800_-_909_(AD)_-_Arabic.svg.png

Let's put it in fundamental terms: She is not genetically autochthonous to Southern Italy / the whole of Italy. Someone with Armenoid features, although not a mainstream type, would be part of the S. Italy elements that constitute its genome. The exemplar is not Armenoid, however.

She just looks Indian or Roma to me. An Italian citizen but not native.

[Mortimer]

only a genetic test could settle this. to me she Looks italian

[Scholarios]

Let's put it in fundamental terms: She is not genetically autochthonous to Southern Italy / the whole of Italy. Someone with Armenoid features, although not a mainstream type, would be part of the S. Italy elements that constitute its genome. The exemplar is not Armenoid, however.

She just looks Indian or Roma to me. An Italian citizen but not native.

well at least i can understand you and basically agree with your point. i disagree that someone with gyspy ancestry or whatever wouldnt be a "native". in particular, this is always my problem with understanding ethnicity with fellow southern europeans. Now, if someone has some "non-european" ancestry and looks like the culturally agreed definition of european, it's ok. if someone has said ancestry but has some combination of features that makes them look "woggy" or "untermensch" (to quote some of the nuanced remarks of some of the finest members of this forum,) then they are clearly not European (even if said ancestry is technically less than others who look more european).

I didnt really expect it to cause some disagreement or people calling me a liar. I'm usually a critic of all of the afro-nordic-centric theorists, anti-european provokers on here, but it's just annoying to be called a liar when it's obviously partially based on such faulty logic as some of the stuff said here. (her looks come from her being some mestizo rather than the obvious answer her looks come from the fact that her ancestors were a short boat-ride from berber stronghold for hundreds of years) Some people in Southern Italy (and other parts of Europe) have this phenotype. There is a clear link between this phenotype and population movements in the historical era. If people wanna boo hiss those movements and play up their favorite peoples in history, that's fine. They can continue to do google-searches for "ideal type" Europeans or whatever.

[Prince Carlo]

Where have you found that map? Moors only controlled Taranto for few years on mainland Italy.

[Ira di Dio]

Eight pages for a rubbish troll thread. Mission accomplished, OP. :thumb001:

[Scholarios]

Eight pages for a rubbish troll thread. Mission accomplished, OP. :thumb001:

Find one other " troll thread" I have started and then we can say it's " troll"

You contributed your remarks to this " rubbish thread"

So thanks for playing along.

[Scholarios]

Where have you found that map? Moors only controlled Taranto for few years on mainland Italy.


It's from Arabic language wikipedia entry for Aghlabids.

[Prince Carlo]

It's from Arabic language wikipedia entry for Aghlabids.

Then it's wrong. Aghlabids only occupied Sicily for about 100 years. They have never conquered neither Sardinia nor parts of mainland Italy.

[Corvus]

Lets stick to the facts. Southern Italy is much more Normanic influenced than most people are aware of. There are a huge number of Keltic nordic individuals.
I just ask myself why are those people never depicted on this side, and always these kind of exotic individuals instead :confused:

[Scholarios]

Then it's wrong. Aghlabids only occupied Sicily for about 100 years. They have never conquered neither Sardinia nor parts of mainland Italy.

You know how wikipedia format is. The article is about Aghlabids, but the map is just about Moors, of course.

[Libertas]

Lets stick to the facts. Southern Italy is much more Normanic influenced than most people are aware of. There are a huge number of Keltic nordic individuals. I just ask myself why are those people never depicted on this side, and always these kind of exotic individuals instead :confused:

Post even one example please.

[Libertas]

Lets stick to the facts. Southern Italy is much more Normanic influenced than most people are aware of. There are a huge number of Keltic nordic individuals.
I just ask myself why are those people never depicted on this side, and always these kind of exotic individuals instead :confused:

Genetically, South Italians have very little NW European mixture and even less NE European.

[Prince Carlo]

You know how wikipedia format is. The article is about Aghlabids, but the map is just about Moors, of course.

I don't speak Arabic but I am pretty much sure that Moors never occupied neither mainland Italy nor Sardinia, only exception being Taranto and for a very brief period.

[Corvus]

Post even one example please.

I will refrain from doing it. But just go through the youth teams of football clubs like Lecce, Bari, Palermo, Catania, Siracusa and you will find dozens of Keltic Nordic individuals.

[Libertas]

I will refrain from doing it. But just go through the youth teams of football teams like Lecce, Bari, Palermo, Catania, Siracusa and you will find dozens of Keltic Nordic individuals.

No,you won't.

If you mean people who look like the photos of Keltic Iron Age Nordics as depicted in Coon's photographs then you are way off base.

[Scholarios]

Lets stick to the facts. Southern Italy is much more Normanic influenced than most people are aware of. There are a huge number of Keltic nordic individuals.
I just ask myself why are those people never depicted on this side, and always these kind of exotic individuals instead :confused:

I tried to make a thread of Norman influenced Sicilians but between Sikeliot and I we could find only a handful. Most of the photo threads for Southerners about Greek influence.

I disagree about their being many threads about this kind of individual. I know because I did searches to find some and most threads on forums about Calabrians and Sicilians talk mostly about their Greek ancestry. Check forum biodiversity, anthroscape, and even here.

Troll threads about Italians of Meds usually focusing on photos of people who aren't even dark except by Scandinavian standards. This girl has a look that always interested me and I didn't mean to offend Italians. I didn't think they'd be so sensitive about it, but some things they said were quite rude and just plain stupid.

But please, I'd be interested to see a photo thread for Norman-Lombard influence in the South. It's one of my favorite periods of history, to boot. I just think it's a little difficult to find photos of individuals who ate clearly Norman in the South.

[Ira di Dio]

Genetically, South Italians have very little NW European mixture and even less NE European.
I didn't know the gene of the keltic nordidness had been discovered. Libertas the whining kid never cease to amaze us.

[Prince Carlo]

Genetically, South Italians have very little NW European mixture and even less NE European.

Actually mainland South Italians have about half of the Atlantic_Baltic admix of Finns and Lithuanians.

[Corvus]

I tried to make a thread of Norman influenced Sicilians but between Sikeliot and I we could find only a handful. Most of the photo threads for Southerners about Greek influence.

I disagree about their being many threads about this kind of individual. I know because I did searches to find some and most threads on forums about Calabrians and Sicilians talk mostly about their Greek ancestry. Check forum biodiversity, anthroscape, and even here.

Troll threads about Italians of Meds usually focusing on photos of people who aren't even dark except by Scandinavian standards. This girl has a look that always interested me and I didn't mean to offend Italians. I didn't think they'd be so sensitive about it, but some things they said were quite rude and just plain stupid.

But please, I'd be interested to see a photo thread for Norman-Lombard influence in the South. It's one of my favorite periods of history, to boot. I just think it's a little difficult to find photos of individuals who ate clearly Norman in the South.

Fair point but I am sure there are dozens of individuals belonging to this type.
I will do the endeavour to open a thread about it soon and so all doubts will be cleared.
Tutto somato Italy is a nordic country and I will try my best to straighten the distorted picture.

[Libertas]

Actually mainland South Italian have about half of the Atlantic_Baltic admix of Finns and Lithuanians.

I suggest you look at DNA Tribes figures.

South Italians/Sicilians have only 11.1 pc of NW European and just 0.2pc of Baltic-Urals.

Finns have 24.3 pc of NW European and 70.1 pc of Baltic-Urals.

Also Finns don't have masses of East Mediterranean and assorted North African.

[Ira di Dio]

I suggest you look at DNA Tribes figures.
There goes Libertas credibility. As if he ever had one :picard2:

[Prince Carlo]

I suggest you look at DNA Tribes figures.

South Italians/Sicilians have only 11.1 pc of NW European and just 0.2pc of Baltic-Urals.

Finns have 24.3 pc of NW European and 70.1 pc of Baltic-Urals.

Also Finns don't have masses of East Mediterranean and assorted North African.

There are no South Italians on Dodecad/Eurogenes. All those guys are Sicilian Americans. Mainland South Italians plot halfway between Tuscans and Sicilians. See De Gaetano et all 2012.

BTW on the Dodecad Globe10 run Tuscans score 50% Atlantic_Baltic, Sicilians score 38% and Finns score 87%.

[Libertas]

There goes Libertas credibility. As if he ever had one :picard2:

They work from larger samples than most other sites quoted on here and you never had any credibility because you are wholly negative.:p

[Scholarios]

Names, please. You have been playing the victim all along and still you have been the only one throwing up insults at now.

Negroid, troll, liar etc. I don't really give a shit to go back and take names. That's not the point. The point is the absolute " butthurt" as is often said here that caused 95% of the posters to not even bother with classification but just immediate accusations.

I was first person to jump on the Arab black guy posting about Black Athena and EV-13 in Italians being from blacks. See, from my perspective some of these posters in this thread are more like him than I am as far as the way they act. I've always been against that crap. Don't put that on me. If you think this is just bullshit and a troll thread then stop replying.

[MM81]

see, Sikeliot, people who looked like this raided and colonized parts of Southern Italy from 8th Century to 18th Century (Barbary Pirates)

They didn't colonize actually, as Joseph already stated. An arabic state was established in Sicily only, as the saracenes (arabic pirates) kept control of Taranto (a city in southern Apulia) for a few years before a coalition of Franks and Longobards expelled them.
They used it as a "base" for their raids, that involved the whole basin of the Mediterranean (but they were thieves, not colonists. They didn't mix or settled in large amounts: they just attacked the coastal towns and robbed the more they could). Arabic presence in the (deep) south left almost no trace, except maybe 1 southerner over 100,000 appearing with armenid or (slight) berberid traits, in very specifical areas of Sicily or Calabria. But it's debatable if these features are "medieval" or older: they could be a resurgence of the REAL colonizers of the South, the (ancient) greeks (the greek area in the past was wider than it is now, it included chunks of Anatolia and the Black Sea).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Location_greek_ancient.png
(the greek world around 550 b.c.)

[Scholarios]

I don't want to continue a flame war, except to say that Arab/Berber presence was mostly raiding for booty, but happened frequently enough to have an effect. In addition Arabs did occupy and some cities were held long enough to be not totally insignificant.The odd individual and some Moorish surnames in Calabria are testament to that. Armenoids could be from a variety of sources, and I don't know if that's necessarily brought by
Muslims.

I do agree though that Greek Colonists seem to be the core of modern population of these areas.

[Prince Carlo]

I don't want to continue a flame war, except to say that Arab/Berber presence was mostly raiding for booty, but happened frequently enough to have an effect. In addition Arabs did occupy and some cities were held long enough to be not totally insignificant.The odd individual and some Moorish surnames in Calabria are testament to that. Armenoids could be from a variety of sources, and I don't know if that's necessarily brought by
Muslims.

I do agree though that Greek Colonists seem to be the core of modern population of these areas.

Following this logic we should be Northern Europeans considering that we have been under Germanic-French rule for almost 1500 years.

[Scholarios]

Following this logic we should be Northern Europeans considering that we have been under Germanic-French rule for almost 1500 years.

The logic doesn't follow because I didn't draw that dot. I didn't say Italians are Berbers or Arabs*. Just that they had influence, they were after all more numerous than Normans at the very least.

* there were also Iberians among them, if it makes any difference.

[Prince Carlo]

The logic doesn't follow because I didn't draw that dot. I didn't say Italians are Berbers or Arabs. Just that they had influence, they were after all more numerous than Normans at the very least.

You don't make any sense at all. If few moorish raids had left visible genetic traces, then centuries of Norman-Lombard-Frankish-Swabian-French-Aragonese-Austrian rule would have turned us in Swiss at the very least.

[kabeiros]

Scholarios, this kind of threads where someone picks a weird looking individual in order to make a nation look heavily mixed, have been used against Greeks about 1000000000 times. I had enough of them...

[Anthropologique]

well at least i can understand you and basically agree with your point. i disagree that someone with gyspy ancestry or whatever wouldnt be a "native". in particular, this is always my problem with understanding ethnicity with fellow southern europeans. Now, if someone has some "non-european" ancestry and looks like the culturally agreed definition of european, it's ok. if someone has said ancestry but has some combination of features that makes them look "woggy" or "untermensch" (to quote some of the nuanced remarks of some of the finest members of this forum,) then they are clearly not European (even if said ancestry is technically less than others who look more european).


I didnt really expect it to cause some disagreement or people calling me a liar. I'm usually a critic of all of the afro-nordic-centric theorists, anti-european provokers on here, but it's just annoying to be called a liar when it's obviously partially based on such faulty logic as some of the stuff said here. (her looks come from her being some mestizo rather than the obvious answer her looks come from the fact that her ancestors were a short boat-ride from berber stronghold for hundreds of years) Some people in Southern Italy (and other parts of Europe) have this phenotype. There is a clear link between this phenotype and population movements in the historical era. If people wanna boo hiss those movements and play up their favorite peoples in history, that's fine. They can continue to do google-searches for "ideal type" Europeans or whatever.

Gypsies are foreign elements (i.e., non-Euro) to the Italian genome and, therefore, not native.

[Scholarios]

Scholarios, this kind of threads where someone picks a weird looking individual in order to make a nation look heavily mixed, have been used against Greeks about 1000000000 times. I had enough of them...

but kabeiros, you are assuming there is a political overtone to it, when there isn't. i think you know that about me.

south Italy, like Greece is mixed. not "heavily" mixed, but there is variation that like anywhere else is based on historical population movements, environment, etc. That's my only interest. not to make anyone look "heavily mixed" (however much mixture qualifies as heavy)

but I guess I felt that there was a section among the forum posters who were interested in anthropology and history outside of politics.

[Scholarios]

You don't make any sense at all. If few moorish raids had left visible genetic traces, then centuries of Norman-Lombard-Frankish-Swabian-French-Aragonese-Austrian rule would have turned us in Swiss at the very least.

Ok, I sort of get what I am dealing with here.

Ok, you are not Aragonese, Swabian, French, Austrian, Norman, etc.

You also are not Berber, Arab, Moor, Phoenician, Greek

You are Italian. Your country has been subject to population movements and historical circumstances that have had minor and major contributions to genes, but mostly to language, culture, music, etc. You can't have one without the other.

In short words, these population movements didn't turn you into Swiss (?) or Berbers. You remained Italians (with some Greeks and Arbereshe thrown in)

[Sikeliot]

But please, I'd be interested to see a photo thread for Norman-Lombard influence in the South. It's one of my favorite periods of history, to boot. I just think it's a little difficult to find photos of individuals who ate clearly Norman in the South.

I've found several and posted them in another thread but don't forget that southerners, especially Sicilians and Calabrese, have amongst the lowest Northern European genetic influence in all Europe, despite Norman rule.

[Sebastian1406]

Does not look like typical Italian at all.

[P-Chan]

this girl fits in India, she doesn't look Calabrian at all.

[Sikeliot]

I am going with the, adopted by Calabrese parents, idea.

[wvwvw]

There are no South Italians on Dodecad/Eurogenes. All those guys are Sicilian Americans. Mainland South Italians plot halfway between Tuscans and Sicilians. See De Gaetano et all 2012.

BTW on the Dodecad Globe10 run Tuscans score 50% Atlantic_Baltic, Sicilians score 38% and Finns score 87%.

Just for comparison, Lebanese score 12% Atlantic_Baltic and Palestinians & Assyrians 8%

[RMuller]

She looks Latin-American, like Mestiza


She doesn't look mestiza. She looks to be part Gypsy or South American triracial.

[annibale]

She isn't typical of Italians or even Southern Italians, but I wouldn't call it extremely rare, as in freak show rare, either. Calabria was a Eastern Roman Empire bastion even centuries after the fall of the western half. It wouldn't surprise me that some subjects of the eastern most part of the Eastern Roman Empire would have be moved there for whatever reason. If you read Plutarch and the other ancient authors you always here about Syrians in Germany with Marsius' armies or an Arab with March Anthony who had lived in Campania, its amazing how much movement of different peoples was happening back then as opposed to the relatively stagnant middle ages. Its a long shot but a native calabrian with a Indian/Persian phenotype randomly popping up in Southern Italy shouldn't necessarily scare anyone. I saw plenty of native italians that "exotic" in southern italy. To the untrained eye as in observors who are non-italian, we would mistake them for gypsies, but the Italians seem to know they are not gypsies somehow.

[evon]

Ok, i got logged off due to a lengthy phone call, so sorry about the long down time...either way the thread should be cleaned now, if it gets cluttered again with OT drama, i will shut it down for good, so behave please..

[sgillespie]

I am going with the, adopted by Calabrese parents, idea.
Never say never, but I would go with the adopted hypotesis, she looks way too much either veddid or in other pics kind of S.American indian, I think I never met someone like her. It's not her skin color, but her traits, she can't be from nowhere in Europe and i would dare from nowhere in the mediterranean

[Sikeliot]

Never say never, but I would go with the adoptive hypotesis, she looks way too much either veddid or in other pics kind of S.American indian, I think I never met someone like her. It's not her skin color, but her traits, she can't be from nowhere in Europe and i would dare from nowhere in the mediterranean

I agree. There is nothing in South Italian history, no population movement, that can explain her look.