The spanish and the basque

[whathappen]

Background
My surname is a Welsh name, and my father is Welsh/Scottish/English, but when I was younger, people would often tell me that I took more to my mother's side than my father's. My younger brother however is very much like my father. I think my younger brother has a slightly different eye-area shape, and has my father's light (in thickness), gently curving brown hair.

I am also fair bit taller than him and he is full-grown now.

So I was wondering about my mother's side of the family and what impact they have had, problem is is that I know hardly anything about them at all. While my father's side has astronomers in NZ, professors in France, and well-to-do individuals in wales and England, on my mother's side they weren't fond of their father, who lived in a poorer area of Melbourne, Australia, and committed suicide while they were younger, and the mother has long-since passed away from lung cancer, unfortunately.

So all I know is that my mother's side are from Spain. But when most people here that I am presumably half Spanish, they are shocked because I don't look like some Mexican gangster or something, even though everybody knows that the Spanish conquistadors where white skin black hair somewhat like the Romans. Well I don't know how true that is anymore, I have search this website and google for the difference between Spaniards in general, and the Basque in particular, and I have a question:

Question

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/europe_eta_ceasefire/img/3.jpg

Is that guy what the Spanish look like? Because I look quite a bit like that, but maybe with a bit of a different head shape. But let's just say that I was him. Should I assume to be basque in particular, or just Spanish, or can you not tell?

I have seen pictures of Spanish basketball players with weird, more boney faces and really thick hair that looks nothing like me. Or if you know any good visual references besides the pictures on wikipedia that weren't much help, then that's fine too.

I just want to understand if there is any phenotypical differences between Southern or mid Spanish and Basques.

[Radojica]

s that guy what the Spanish look like? Because I look quite a bit like that, but maybe with a bit of a different head shape. But let's just say that I was him. Should I assume to be basque in particular, or just Spanish, or can you not tell?

I have seen pictures of Spanish basketball players with weird, more boney faces and really thick hair that looks nothing like me. Or if you know any good visual references besides the pictures on wikipedia that weren't much help, then that's fine too.

I just want to understand if there is any phenotypical differences between Southern or mid Spanish and Basques.

I am just talking with a friend of mine who is Spanish and she said that guy is a Basque most probably.

[Sol Invictus]

I am Basque.. Check out my phenotype..

[SilverFish]

I think the guy is joking...I can tell from his tone.

[Æmeric]

The Basque apparently have no Moorish admixture:
http://i43.tinypic.com/20p7j8l.jpg

They do not have any E (or its subclades) Y chromosomes, unique among the various ethnic groups of the Iberian peninsula.

[Óttar]

I am Basque.. Check out my phenotype..
But you are mixed, no?

[whathappen]

Thankyou everyone who posted. Until I can learn more about my mothers-side family or get a dna test, I think I will consider myself part-Basque in particular rather than part-Spanish in general.

[Matritensis]

He could be Basque or from anywhere in the rest of Spain,but not the most typical type.

[Matritensis]

The "pure" (not that you can find those types in abundance anymore) Basque face is very long,and resembles often an inverted triangle.The nose is quite prominent and the ears too.

[Grey]

I go to school with a Basque who says one of their most recognizable features is that they have a cleft in the tip of their nose. I'm not sure if this is true; anyone else know?

[Freomæg]

I got myself into an internet 'wild goose chase' trying to learn more about the Basque. I find the story of the Basque fascinating. I've also learned that I share some Basque traits myself (large ears and thick eyebrows) - though I have no Basque ancestry of note.

Can anyone tell me who inhabited the rest of Spain (non-Basque country) before the Romans, and what language they spoke? Are the Basque merely the indigenous Spanish who didn't adopt Latin language and culture, or is there more to it than that?

[Amapola]

....

[Amapola]

I got myself into an internet 'wild goose chase' trying to learn more about the Basque. I find the story of the Basque fascinating. I've also learned that I share some Basque traits myself (large ears and thick eyebrows) - though I have no Basque ancestry of note.

Can anyone tell me who inhabited the rest of Spain (non-Basque country) before the Romans, and what language they spoke?

http://mx.kalipedia.com/kalipediamedia/penrelcul/media/200707/18/relycult/20070718klpprcryc_7.Ees.SCO.png
Iberians ---> yellow. They spoke a non-indoeuropean language like the Basques.
Celts---> Green. Celtic languages.
Vasconi/Basques (not Basques but I use the word so that you can understand me)---> orange

There is an hypothesis (basque-Iberian theory) that the basque and Iberian languages are related.


Are the Basque merely the indigenous Spanish who didn't adopt Latin language and culture, or is there more to it than that?
According to the Ibero.basque theory, which -for me- is the most sensible: it is believed that the basques, were before the arrival of the Celts in the peninsula, but not as "basques", but Iberians just like the Tartessians and other people who dwelled on the banks of the Mediterranean, except that those Iberians went up into the interior of the peninsula, which was colder and wooded then. Going the Celts inland and occupying the interior and the Atlantic coastline, those iberians who survived, stayed isolated and hid in the mountains.

[Kadu]

http://mx.kalipedia.com/kalipediamedia/penrelcul/media/200707/18/relycult/20070718klpprcryc_7.Ees.SCO.png



A better map




http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/Populi150dpi.jpg


Abstract
Represented geographic information:

1. Basic geography

· Coastal boundaries

· Main hidrography

2. Major ethno-geographic groups, represented by delimited territories and name identity

· Primary geographic-delimited ethnic groups (e.g. VASCONES).

· Greater social formations of mixed ethnic origin and shared socio-political and cultural environment (e.g. TURDETANOS)

· Territories of majority of specific ethnic-linguistic groups (e.g. CELTICOS).

3. Secondary ethnic and gentilician communities with toponymic, territorial and political identity, excluding smaller later oppida-centered civitates. (e.g. TITOS).

4. Pre-Roman urban centers:

· Native towns with recognized urban status in the beginning of Roman domination through specific coin emissions, identified by location and language of emission.

· Phoenician, Greek and Punic (Carthaginian) colonial foundations, still surviving in the end of the 2d Punic War. Only major places are identified. Towns of doubtful status and "factories" are not represented.

· Other selected urban centers, referred by historical sources, identified by name.

5. Colonial territories

· Coastal area of the "Circle of the Straight", economic and cultural commonwealth centred in Gadir/Gades.

· Geopolitical areas of colonization, territorial domination and political-military influence of Carthage, before the end of the 2d Punic War.

6. Greater surviving dominant linguistic groups and linguistic complexes.

· Native Iberian languages, non-indo-european and of doubtful origin: Proto-Basque, Eastern Iberian, Southern Iberian and Tartessic (Southwestern Iberian). This last one was residual by 200 B.C., replaced by celtian in most of its original territory.

· Pre-celt indo-european (Lusitanian group). Other primitive indo-european languages were, by then, probably only toponymic.

· Colonial languages: Libio-phoenician. African-punic dialects brought by colonialist populations settled by Carthage.

· Celtian and Celtiberian evolutions. The whole "celt" spectrum is present in Iberia, from early "urn-field" to late "La Tène". Gaulish migrations continued until mid I B.C. Central iberia (Celtiberia) was a diffusion center of later celt movements to the North West and, specially, to the Tartessic-Turdetan South.

7. Romanization

· Military frontier in 194 B.C. (after the Carthaginian defeat in Iberia) and 156 B.C. (before the Lusitanian/Celtiberian Wars)

· Roman Provinces after the 2nd territorial reorganization of August (before 7 B.C.).


Source: http://arkeotavira.com/Mapas/Iberia/Populi.htm

[Amapola]

Thanks, much more detailed, I just posted the first map I saw just to give him an overall picture of it. :)

[Comte Arnau]

The two maps are good. What Alana's shows is the linguistic situation only some years before the Roman conquest. What I don't get is why it includes the Greek colonies but not the Phoenician-Carthaginian ones.

[Stefan]

The Iberian people(including the basque) interest me so much. Not only because I am partially Spanish, but there is just not that much knowledge on them. There are also a whole bunch of myths that seem to be associated with them. An example is those that believed in Ancient times as well as some today that they were the descendants of "Atlanteans" and such. No this is probably far from the truth, but it is still interesting none the less. I've also read some basque folk stories on the internet, and they seem to be so rich in culture. Are there any archeological sites of the Iberians? I've heard of some Celtiberian sites, but nothing on the non-celtic influenced ones. I would love to see how similar their architecture and style was to those of other areas of Europe. I think the closest relatives to them would be the pre-celtic peoples of the British Isles of whom are believed to built Stonehenge.


Edit: Also, how much of Iberia could be considered descendants of Romans? I'm going to assume that it isn't much right?

[Comte Arnau]

The Iberian people(including the basque) interest me so much. Not only because I am partially Spanish, but there is just not that much knowledge on them. There are also a whole bunch of myths that seem to be associated with them. An example is those that believed in Ancient times as well as some today that they were the descendants of "Atlanteans" and such. No this is probably far from the truth, but it is still interesting none the less. I've also read some basque folk stories on the internet, and they seem to be so rich in culture. Are there any archeological sites of the Iberians? I've heard of some Celtiberian sites, but nothing on the non-celtic influenced ones. I would love to see how similar their architecture and style was to those of other areas of Europe. I think the closest relatives to them would be the pre-celtic peoples of the British Isles of whom are believed to built Stonehenge.

By Iberians you mean modern Iberians (that is, inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula) or the Iberian peoples, those inhabiting the eastern area before the Romans?

Btw, the South-West of the Peninsula was inhabited by the intriguing Tartessians, which has been indeed postulated as one of the many possible locations for the mythical Atlantis.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Tartessos.png/800px-Tartessos.png



Edit: Also, how much of Iberia could be considered descendants of Romans? I'm going to assume that it isn't much right?

Right. The bulk is formed by Romanized locals, as in most non-Italian areas of the Roman Empire.

[Stefan]

Those who inhabited the eastern area before the Romans. The western half was most Celtiberian right? Either way, I mean the people before the Romans.

[Comte Arnau]

Those who inhabited the eastern area before the Romans. The western half was most Celtiberian right? Either way, I mean the people before the Romans.

Yes, the western part was basically Celtic. Celtiberians, properly speaking, where those Celts neighboring Iberians, influenced by them, for instance, in the writing system.

Well, there is information about the Iberians, but the language hasn't been deciphered yet. We know their writing systems, and have some lexical and structural clues, which make us infer that either it was related to Proto-Basque or the influence between both was huge.

As for one of the most famous sculptural pieces of Iberian art, an example is the great Lady of Elx, from the 4th century BC, so admired by people like Picasso.

http://galeon.hispavista.com/hobby-chus/img/dama%20de%20elche%20original.jpg

http://cms7.blogia.com/blogs/p/pe/pep/pepe-cerda/upload/20060529150003-dama-de-elche.jpg

What it's thought to have been coloured like:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pquY1JTqTN0/SlAaY8IwFNI/AAAAAAAAAqI/OpYrYntWtCk/s400/194+2+La+Dama+de+Elche-Mus+Arqu+Nacional,+Madrid.jpg

[Stefan]

That reminds me. In the Basque religion(before they were Christianized, if that is even a word), their main Goddess is named Mari, right? Is there any findings of art of her? She is a very intriguing entity described as very beautiful.

That sculpture actually reminds me of the ruins in the movie Pan's Labyrinth, as well as the clothing worn by the girl's(forgot her name) "parents" toward the end. Did the director, Guillermo del Toro, take a lot of the fantasy aspects of the movie from ancient Iberians and their culture?

[Comte Arnau]

That reminds me. In the Basque religion(before they were Christianized, if that is even a word), their main Goddess is named Mari, right? Is there any findings of art of her? She is a very intriguing entity described as very beautiful.

I've heard several things regarding her. Some would say she was an earth goddess, a sort of Gaia. Others, a lamia, nature fairy/witch. She doesn't have a unique depiction, as far as I know. But her face is appreciated in a rock formation at the most important of her cave-dwellings, in the Amboto.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Cueva_de_Mari_cara_1.JPG/450px-Cueva_de_Mari_cara_1.JPG


That sculpture actually reminds me of the ruins in the movie Pan's Labyrinth, as well as the clothing worn by the girl's(forgot her name) "parents" toward the end. Did the director, Guillermo del Toro, take a lot of the fantasy aspects of the movie from ancient Iberians and their culture?

Really? Hmm, interesting association, I don't know if he did. What many have associated it with is actually princess Leia. :D

http://gedmaheux.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/leia.pnghttp://matronit.galeon.com/elche_dama3.jpg

More seriously, it is said that the influence of that complicated hairstyle and headware may have persisted through time and might be related with modern Spanish mantillas and quite certainly with the Valencian falleres' hairstyle.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/368/mantilla4forobnxp3.jpg

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6218/crisip6.jpg

[Mesrine]

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/368/mantilla4forobnxp3.jpg

I'm usually not fond of tradición, but I can make an exception. :love:

[Damião de Góis]

Btw, the South-West of the Peninsula was inhabited by the intriguing Tartessians, which has been indeed postulated as one of the many possible locations for the mythical Atlantis.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Tartessos.png/800px-Tartessos.png


Yes, they were here too in my region together with the celts. So instead of being a lusitan or an iberian i am really more of a celto-tartessian. :P

[Comte Arnau]

Yes, they were here too in my region together with the celts. So instead of being a lusitan or an iberian i am really more of a celto-tartessian. :P

If the legend is true and Tartessos was the real Atlantis, you might be a descendant of Atlanteans. That would explain your Atlantic look. :D

[Damião de Góis]

If the legend is true and Tartessos was the real Atlantis, you might be a descendant of Atlanteans. That would explain your Atlantic look. :D

Apparently archeologists are yet to find their city Tartessos. According to portuguese wikipedia they were most likely wiped out by the carthaginians and their civilization was destroyed, that would explain why people can't find Tartessos.

[Mesrine]

I've also learned that I share some Basque traits myself (large ears and thick eyebrows) - though I have no Basque ancestry of note.

I also have these features, but it's more Western European than typically Basque. Perhaps a signature of our recent metal age Anatolian origin? :D

[Comte Arnau]

Apparently archeologists are yet to find their city Tartessos. According to portuguese wikipedia they were most likely wiped out by the carthaginians and their civilization was destroyed, that would explain why people can't find Tartessos.

Well, it could also be due to other reasons, since the area is quite a wetland at some parts. Think of Doñana.

Yep, the precise location isn't known yet, but it's quite certain that it was somewhere between the mouths of the Guadalquivir and the Guadiana.

[Stefan]

Wow I could talk about this for days. The pre-roman peoples of Iberia are so mysterious and interesting.

Anyway, here is the ending. To anybody who hasn't seen the movie, do not watch it. Watch the whole movie instead, it is pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWqgdmBUP5c

If you stop at 8:01 and look at the "mother" you will see what I mean. It isn't only that though. The whole concept of the "Faun" and all of the myths seem to be both Celtic, and some of the architecture looked reminiscent of the Iberian architecture I've seen in these pictures.

[Damião de Góis]

Well, it could also be due to other reasons, since the area is quite a wetland at some parts. Think of Doñana.

Yep, the precise location isn't known yet, but it's quite certain that it was somewhere between the mouths of the Guadalquivir and the Guadiana.

It depends on where you are thinking. The Tartessian region was bigger than the land between the Guadalquivir and Guadiana, in fact it stretched almost as far as Setúbal. So we could be talking about anywhere within that region. The map posted earlier doesn't match any other map i've seen of the Tartessian area.

http://www.arkeotavira.com/Mapas/Iberia/Populi150dpi.jpg