Sandra Laing

[Æmeric]

Sandra Laing was a girl born in South Africa in 1955 who was allegedly the daughter of two White parents but was Black. This is Sandra flanked by her parents:


http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2007/05/25/PH2007052501036.jpg

DNA testing did not exist at the time but blood tests could not exclude Abraham Laing as the father of Sandra. Investigations of Sannie Laing could not turn up any evidence of sexual relations with a Bantu male. The official explanation is that both senoir Laings were part Bantu or Khoisian which is why their daughter turned out the way she did. I don't see how the senior Laings could have had enough Negro DNA between them to create a child like Sandra, who looks to me to be at least 1/2 Bantu. But then again I'm not a geneticist. Sandra seems to have been born when her parents were middle aged. I think it is most likely Sandra was the illegitimate child of Abraham Laing by a Bantu woman or maybe the illegitimate child of another relative, maybe one of the two sons of Abraham & Sannie Laing, whom they tried to pass off as their own. Any ideas about this unusual case?

[Loki]

Who knows, without DNA testing it will all remain speculation. The mother could have liked the garden boy for all we know. :rolleyes:

[Loyalist]

Sub-Saharan genes have been known to randomly, and decisively, manifest themselves even generations after any knowledge of such ancestry has long since passed from memory. Personally, I believe this is a case of an undesirable ancestor in the lineage of one or both parents re-emerging. The latter is known as the "Mendelian inheritance", and would require that both parents possessed African ancestry, and in turn these genes activated one another. That seems unlikely, however, as Laing has siblings who appeared fully white, and the chances of two Afrikaner nationalists with Negro ancestors marrying one another are extremely remote.

There's something about the appearance of the mother in this picture that strikes me as Negroid:

http://i37.tinypic.com/fpazra.jpg

[Æmeric]

I had trouble trying to find a decent photo of Mrs. Laing, the one in the first post was the best I could find. I don't think she looks partially Negroid.


Sub-Saharan genes have been known to randomly, and decisively, manifest themselves even generations after any knowledge of such ancestry has long since passed from memory. Personally, I believe this is a case of an undesirable ancestor in the lineage of one or both parents re-emerging. The latter is known as the "Mendelian inheritance", and would require that both parents possessed African ancestry, and in turn these genes activated one another. That seems unlikely, however, as Laing has siblings who appeared fully white, and the chances of two Afrikaner nationalists with Negro ancestors marrying one another are extremely remote. I think the odds of this happening are about as likely as getting hit by a meteor or winning the jackpot in a lottery. The garden boy or the housemaid seem much more likely.

There is a film coming out on the subject next year called Skin (http://www.elysianfilms.com/skin.htm), staring Sam Neil & Alice Krige as the elder Laings.


http://www.elysianfilms.com/pics/skin-trio-pic-w230.jpg


I can just imagine some woman somewhere telling her shocked husband "Well of course it's your baby, didn't you ever hear of Sandra Laing?":rolleyes:.

[Vulpix]

I see it too!




There's something about the appearance of the mother in this picture that strikes me as Negroid:

http://i37.tinypic.com/fpazra.jpg

[Revenant]

The mother could have liked the garden boy for all we know. :rolleyes:

Yes I'd bet that was the case. There's no way that she's the fathers biological child.

[Vulpix]

"Sandra Laing: A Spiritual Journey - South Africa"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZyvxpsCjQ

The most likely explaination imo, is that someone cheated... Anyhow her little brother is a mulatto.

[Absinthe]

I'm with you on the cheating hypothesis, it seems highly unlikely that this vast...phenotypical difference :D is due to recessive genes. :p

[Alison]

There is a book I want for Christmas that documents the stories of great South Africans in history, and I heard the author speaking about the book on the radio the other day. It appears that there are more mixed race people in South Africa than was originally thought.

In fact, before Apartheid, there were many many mixed race marriages.

[Vulpix]

What a coincidence, there is a sob-story article in the Daily Mail today (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1093674/The-tragic-story-white-girl-born-black-tore-family-apart.html) about Sandra Laing.

Her brother MUST be mixed race as well.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/10/article-1093674-02C4737F000005DC-121_468x395.jpg

[Vulpix]

Taking into account the current social/political climate in South Africa, I'm very suspicious that it is an attempt at "romanticisation" of race mixing.

Do you happen to have any source of evidence for the supposedly high frequency of mixed race marriages before Apartheid?


There is a book I want for Christmas that documents the stories of great South Africans in history, and I heard the author speaking about the book on the radio the other day. It appears that there are more mixed race people in South Africa than was originally thought.

In fact, before Apartheid, there were many many mixed race marriages.

[Arundel]

Recently I had browsed and printed out architectural photos from the Library of Congress.
But I also came upon a section of photos of black people. I was totally amazed at how many of them looked perfectly white, fine features, fine hair, etc. Any one of them I would have believed perfectly white (not mulatto) if I had met them. Most of the photos were made in the late 1800's. It certainly made me wonder how many of them left their black roots and passed as white, without even their descendants ever knowing about it. Nature has a way of revising old genes. I have read that many times family characteristics skip a generation. I have found this to be true. I would wonder if one of those parents had hidden black genes in them. Until I saw those old photos in the Library of Congress, I was not aware that there were many totally white looking people, that were classified as black in their time.

[Alison]

I'll see what I can find out. I got that info from an interview I heard on the radio. However, it is common knowledge that there was much interracial marriage before Apartheid.


Taking into account the current social/political climate in South Africa, I'm very suspicious that it is an attempt at "romanticisation" of race mixing.

Do you happen to have any source of evidence for the supposedly high frequency of mixed race marriages before Apartheid?

[Loki]

However, it is common knowledge that there was much interracial marriage before Apartheid.

Hmmm I'm a South African and I know our history, and it's not "common knowledge" to me. Also, what does "much" mean? How much is much? And how many of those were incorporated into the Coloured community?

[Alison]

Still doing research, loki, but just think about the coloured community in the Cape. Huge!

[Alison]

BTW, I would like to expand this to interracial relationships and coloureds per capita of the population prior to 1960 or thereabouts.

Loki, give me more search clues. I need that book, damnit.

[Alison]

Oh. Sandra Laing was interviewed on the radio yesterday. I wonder if they have put it up as a podcast. I'll post it on this thread if it is.

[Loki]

Still doing research, loki, but just think about the coloured community in the Cape. Huge!

The nature of the source for your research is also important. If it's the usual "we-are-all-mongrels" crap, then I'm not interested in reading their findings. Not scientific, but rather politically motivated.

The Coloured community is huge, yes. It is made up of various different sources, most importantly Khoi (Hottentot) people (who were the original inhabitants of the Cape), Malays (from Dutch East India), and of course mixed marriages between the beforementioned and whites, as well as some blacks (there were historically no blacks in the Western Cape when the Dutch settled -- they were a lot further to the East).

So to wrap up, only a small percentage of the Coloured community are the reults of black-white miscegenation. But the fact that this community exists is proof that whites remained a separate entity from them. Mixed relations were outcasts, and were incorporated into that community.

[Vulpix]

Couldn't that be because they breed like proverbial rabbits? Just a thought...


Still doing research, loki, but just think about the coloured community in the Cape. Huge!

[Alison]

The nature of the source for your research is also important. If it's the usual "we-are-all-mongrels" crap, then I'm not interested in reading their findings. Not scientific, but rather politically motivated.

The Coloured community is huge, yes. It is made up of various different sources, most importantly Khoi (Hottentot) people (who were the original inhabitants of the Cape), Malays (from Dutch East India), and of course mixed marriages between the beforementioned and whites, as well as some blacks (there were historically no blacks in the Western Cape when the Dutch settled -- they were a lot further to the East).

So to wrap up, only a small percentage of the Coloured community are the reults of black-white miscegenation. But the fact that this community exists is proof that whites remained a separate entity from them. Mixed relations were outcasts, and were incorporated into that community.

Yes, which is why it is important to check every source.

I believe that Apartheid was almost effective in stopping the miscegenation. I do not believe it was 100% successful.

[Alison]

Couldn't that be because they breed like proverbial rabbits? Just a thought...

Yes, in a sense that common, uneducated people do. I know lots of coloureds who restrict themselves to 2 children. It's the drunken layabouts in every society that procreate at alarming rates.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I find it very hard to believe that those two parents could produce those children.

I want to see DNA evidence. It looks political.

[Loki]

I believe that Apartheid was almost effective in stopping the miscegenation. I do not believe it was 100% successful.

Indeed, very few things in life are 100%. There are families in SA with some mixed heritage from the 17th century -- but in most cases it was with Indian females (who were slaves from the Malabar coast in India). As I've said before, there were no black tribes living in the Western Cape area in colonial times. And during the Great Trek after the colonial time at the Cape, I can guarantee you that none of those pioneering Afrikaner families took black wives from the tribes they encountered. This is unheard of.

[Alison]

Indeed, very few things in life are 100%. There are families in SA with some mixed heritage from the 17th century -- but in most cases it was with Indian females (who were slaves from the Malabar coast in India). As I've said before, there were no black tribes living in the Western Cape area in colonial times. And during the Great Trek after the colonial time at the Cape, I can guarantee you that none of those pioneering Afrikaner families took black wives from the tribes they encountered. This is unheard of.

I'm not only speaking about Afrikaaners, Loki. I agree that there were no black tribes living in the Western Cape, but people migrate all the time.

Let me do more research. :)

[Alison]

I find it very hard to believe that those two parents could produce those children.

I want to see DNA evidence. It looks political.

It would have looked political if it was present day news. In those days, any child who was dark and failed the pencil test was, for the most part, ostracised, as was the family.

[Loyalist]

Bantus and other Negro tribes were nowhere near the land that Europeans originally settled in South Africa. The overwhelming majority of those who did engage in miscegenation, and this is almost exclusively with Indian slaves, were incorporated into the modern coloured populace. If a handful of mixed Afrikaners do exist today, any non-European ancestry would be so remote that it could not possibly be significant in any manner. One only needs to look at the complexion of white South Africans today to realize that these accusation of mixing are ludicrous. As is the case elsewhere, these "conclusions" are generally the products of pseudo-science, and associated figures working with an agenda to discredit white racial preservation. Afrikaners continue to strike me as among the best preserved, and most ethnically-homogeneous, of all Colonial peoples. Apartheid-era laws, such as the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act (1949) and the Immorality Act (1950), helped to perpetuate that fact into the 21st century.

[Alison]

Bantus and other Negro tribes were nowhere near the land that Europeans originally settled in South Africa. The overwhelming majority of those who did engage in miscegenation, and this is almost exclusively with Indian slaves, were incorporated into the modern coloured populace. If a handful of mixed Afrikaners do exist today, any non-European ancestry would be so remote that it could not possibly be significant in any manner. One only needs to look at the complexion of white South Africans today to realize that these accusation of mixing are ludicrous. As is the case elsewhere, these "conclusions" are generally the products of pseudo-science, and associated figures working with an agenda to discredit white racial preservation. Afrikaners continue to strike me as among the best preserved, and most ethnically-homogeneous, of all Colonial peoples. Apartheid-era laws, such as the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act (1949) and the Immorality Act (1950), helped to perpetuate that fact into the 21st century.

I tend to disagree, in part, as I have seen "white" people who definitely have African features. They tend to be from the lower end of society, often displaying such qualities that only blacks display. They are poorly educated and have no will to rise above their situation. They sicken and depress me, because they are being overtaken, and are letting the white race down.

Disclaimer: I am not picking on Afrikaaners here. Heavens alive, guys. I am speaking about whites in general!

[Vulpix]

Pencil test? :confused:


In those days, any child who was dark and failed the pencil test was, for the most part, ostracised, as was the family.


Are you talking about African physical or behavioral features? Or the so called "white trash" :confused:


I tend to disagree, in part, as I have seen "white" people who definitely have African features. They tend to be from the lower end of society, often displaying such qualities that only blacks display. They are poorly educated and have no will to rise above their situation. They sicken and depress me, because they are being overtaken, and are letting the white race down.

Disclaimer: I am not picking on Afrikaaners here. Heavens alive, guys. I am speaking about whites in general!

[Loki]

Disclaimer: I am not picking on Afrikaaners here. Heavens alive, guys. I am speaking about whites in general!

True. Afrikaners have traditionally only made up about 60% of SA's white population. English-speaking about 35%, and the remainder are Portuguese from the colonies of Mozambique and Angola, and Germans, Greeks etc ... the usual assortment of wogs who own fish & chips shops. :p

[Loki]

African physical or behavioral features? :confused:

I have also seen some people with darker-than-usual features, or ones who would acquire a very deep tan in the sun. In such cases non-European admixture is very possible.

[Loyalist]

I tend to disagree, in part, as I have seen "white" people who definitely have African features. They tend to be from the lower end of society, often displaying such qualities that only blacks display. They are poorly educated and have no will to rise above their situation. They sicken and depress me, because they are being overtaken, and are letting the white race down.

Disclaimer: I am not picking on Afrikaaners here. Heavens alive, guys. I am speaking about whites in general!

How can you be certain of the ancestral origins of the people in question? Portuguese, Spaniards, and Italians, all of whom are present in various numbers in South Africa and surrounding nations, often display the features you have specified. That relates to inter-mixture with Moors and slaves in their European homelands, not miscegenation in Africa, and corresponding phenotypes have consequently been imported to their Colonial destinations. I have yet to encounter a proper Afrikaner or Anglo-African who displays Negro attributes, mentally or physically. While I'll clarify that I'm not making any assertions, it seems you have some vested interest in calling into question the racial status of Afrikaners.

[Alison]

Yes. The pencil test was used to determine if a child was black or coloured. The pencil was inserted in the hair and if it stayed put, the person was deemed black.

Now, I am whiter than white but have luxurious hair. No pencil would find its way out of my head unless I shook my head vigorously.

[Alison]

Yes, true. My husband is from northern Italy and he burns bright pink in the sun and then goes white again. I often think that his father's family was from Switzerland as he is quite fair-skinned.

[Alison]

True. Afrikaners have traditionally only made up about 60% of SA's white population. English-speaking about 35%, and the remainder are Portuguese from the colonies of Mozambique and Angola, and Germans, Greeks etc ... the usual assortment of wogs who own fish & chips shops. :p

Yes. However, I have found that the sustainers of the economy are those wogs that run fish and chip shops and cafes. :) Afrikaaners have run the mines and the farms, and the English are the ones who have ingratiated themselves in the big business, just like the Jewish people.

Jirre, I sound like a race-traitor, but I am not really. Just realistic.

[Vulpix]

LOL, that's funny :D! Not a very smart test :rolleyes:...


Yes. The pencil test was used to determine if a child was black or coloured. The pencil was inserted in the hair and if it stayed put, the person was deemed black.

Now, I am whiter than white but have luxurious hair. No pencil would find its way out of my head unless I shook my head vigorously.

[Loki]

Jirre, I sound like a race-traitor, but I am not really. Just realistic.

Well, on Apricity you are welcome to express your views. Tell it like it is, or like you see it. It is good if we disagree sometimes, because we can learn from the debate. Without vigorous debate a forum becomes boring.

[Alison]

It is silly. :) My daughter has the curliest hair ever, but she is blond and blue eyed, with Scandanavian features. She is the ultimate that reflects what is perfect in a white person, but she would fail the pencil test. LOL.

[Vulpix]

I'd like to know exactly how this test was performed :p.


It is silly. :) My daughter has the curliest hair ever, but she is blond and blue eyed, with Scandanavian features. She is the ultimate that reflects what is perfect in a white person, but she would fail the pencil test. LOL.

[Alison]

Simple. Stick a pencil in the hair and if it fell out, you were white. Doh! Then again, colour of skin and other factors were taken into consideration.

I saw a doccie a few weeks ago where these people who were of mixed colour and had interracial marriages were seperated from their families, simply because they had one bloke who determined if some were white and some were black.

Many "white" people failed the pencil test, whilst many "blacks" escaped the system.

I would kill anyone who took my children away from me.

[Absinthe]

My hair's so bloody thin and sleek that even lice would not be able to hold on to it. :p I guess I'm "white" then, eh? :D

[Arrow Cross]

My hair's so bloody thin and sleek that even lice would not be able to hold on to it. :p I guess I'm "white" then, eh? :D
Ah yes, the not-so-comfortable side-effects of hair-dying.

[Absinthe]

Ah yes, the not-so-comfortable side-effects of hair-dying.

It was always like this, it only became a less dense but not thinner, due to hair dying:wink

[Treffie]

This reminds me of the case of GK Butterfield

A white man with black parents.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/G._K._Butterfield%2C_official_photo_portrait_color .jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Butterfield

[Æmeric]

Butterfield is not White. People in North Carolina know his family background. If he had relocated & lived quietly he might have passed. But there is also the question of his speech, mannerisms & personal behavior that could give him away or at least cause persons to scrutinize him more. I can recognized Negroes over the phone, no matter how well educated or articulate they are.

Speaking of lightskinned Negroes, I've noticed Suzanne Malveaux has gotten darker since Obama was elected. I wonder if she was lighting her skin & stopped after Obama was elected & it became supercool to be Negro?:rolleyes:



http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlDC/original/marriot1.jpg


I saw her on CNN yesterday & she was even darker then in the above photo.

[Æmeric]

I'm curious, do you do it as well? Do what?

[Rudy]

In August 2007, Malveaux was the moderator of the 31st annual convention of the National Association of Black Journalists[1] and has served on various panels at previous conventions of the NABJ, of which she is a member.[2]
Contents
Malveaux, whose first name is pronounced Sue-zahn [3], was born in Lansing, Michigan into a New Orleans-based family of African, Spanish, and French descent. Her father is of Louisiana French Creole descent [4].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Malveaux
I would have thought she was Med at first.

[TheGreatest]

In August 2007, Malveaux was the moderator of the 31st annual convention of the National Association of Black Journalists[1] and has served on various panels at previous conventions of the NABJ, of which she is a member.[2]
Contents
Malveaux, whose first name is pronounced Sue-zahn [3], was born in Lansing, Michigan into a New Orleans-based family of African, Spanish, and French descent. Her father is of Louisiana French Creole descent [4].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Malveaux
I would have thought she was Med at first.


That just goes to show the corruption of the word Mediterranean. Why do Americans accept such dark-skinned people as Mediterranean, especially French?
It's no different when Americans mistake Amerindians for being Hispanic... It's just wrong

[Rudy]

Why do Americans accept such dark-skinned people as Mediterranean, especially French?
Many tan Americans are Italians. Many of the French Americans do not have a tan.

Now that I go back and look at the haplogroup chart for Europe, I see that the Spanish and French are mostly R1B, so she must be mostly a mix of African and R1B, and not J.
http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/berthold_2008/YHaplo.gif

[TheGreatest]

Many tan Americans are Italians.

Well that's just the dubious racial reality. The Crying Cherokee had managed to convinced millions of Americans that he was Cherokee. The problem being this ''Cherokee'' was in fact 100% Sicilian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody

[Loki]

That just goes to show the corruption of the word Mediterranean. Why do Americans accept such dark-skinned people as Mediterranean, especially French?


Well, there is a vast difference between French and French Creole. The former is white European, the latter is mixed-race. :)

[TheGreatest]

Well, there is a vast difference between French and French Creole. The former is white European, the latter is mixed-race. :)


I was under the impression that Creole had meant a Frenchmen born in the New World, or maybe that was the original definition.
My friend in Louisiana identifies as a Creole American, and I can testify that he doesn't look black or speak in ebonics :p

[Loki]

I was under the impression that Creole had meant a Frenchmen born in the New World, or maybe that was the original definition.
My friend in Louisiana identifies as a Creole American, and I can testify that he doesn't look black or speak in ebonics :p

You're right, the term Creole is ambiguous and can mean different things. However, in this case the darkness of the family definitely has to do with non-European racial mixing.

[Rudy]

Well, there is a vast difference between French and French Creole.
Let off the hook by Loki's close reading.:D

According to this article, it is possible she could have some Native American also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Creole_people

[aja675]

BUMP

[aja675]

How would you classify her?

http://www.africansuccess.org/docs/image/sandralaingskin_article-thumb-300x425-6951.jpg

[Kazimiera]

Cape Coloured. Definitely some Khoisan in the mix there.

[aja675]

Would you say she's Bantuid-Sanid-Alpinid?

[Kazimiera]

Would you say she's Bantuid-Sanid-Alpinid?

I'm a crap classifier, but Sanid is the strongest. Her hair is not Khoisan, looks like it's a bit looser because of European input.

I'm not even sure about the Bantu, but if it's there, it's not strong enough to overpower the Sanid.

[aja675]

I'm a crap classifier, but Sanid is the strongest. Her hair is not Khoisan, looks like it's a bit looser because of European input.

I'm not even sure about the Bantu, but if it's there, it's not strong enough to overpower the Sanid.

Would her European side be Alpinid?

[aja675]

I'm a crap classifier, but Sanid is the strongest. Her hair is not Khoisan, looks like it's a bit looser because of European input.

I'm not even sure about the Bantu, but if it's there, it's not strong enough to overpower the Sanid.

Well, I think it's there. She was darker when she was a child.

[Germaniac]

I've seen a great many Afrikaners that acquire a really deep tan in the sun, but look completely white. Also seen many with curly hair. Fact is, they have a lot of French blood, sometimes southern French, so that explain the ability to tan a lot, Southern European blood. As for the curly hair, many Europeans have curly hair, and I've seen a great many Dutch people with curly hair. Never seen an Afrikaner with frizzy hair or real non-white features.