Puerto Rico denies gays right to adopt children

[Tropico]

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — Puerto Rico’s Supreme Court has narrowly voted to uphold a law banning gay couples from adopting children.

Wednesday’s 5-4 vote comes in the case of an unidentified woman who sought to adopt a child that her partner had through in vitro fertilization.

A majority of judges upheld the constitutionality of a law specifying that a family is comprised of a mother and father, saying that is best for a child’s dignity and well-being.

Chief Justice Federico Hernandez Denton dissented. He also said that the plaintiff’s attorneys proved the adoption would benefit the child.

The vote comes as Puerto Rican legislators prepare to debate several bills that would extend more rights to gays and lesbians.




-----------------

I forgot how Catholic Puerto Ricans are... -_-

[Sikeliot]

Well in the US many states still do not let LGBT couples adopt, so it's not a shock.

[Tropico]

True, especially with the presence of the Catholic church and faith so widespread in PR.

[SkyBurn]

That's a shame. But the fact that the vote was so close to being different shows that the country/people is/are changing, and that there is hope for the future.

[Tropico]

That's a shame. But the fact that the vote was so close to being different shows that the country/people is/are changing, and that there is hope for the future.

Yeah. 5 to 4 is close as hell. And many youth are ignoring the ignorance of the older generation. But Puerto Rico is still very traditional.

[Han Cholo]

How is this something negative?

[Sikeliot]

Honestly given how horrible gay people have it in some countries around the world including some in the Western Hemisphere like Jamaica, not being able to adopt hardly makes it onto my list of things to complain about.

[Hayalet]

A majority of judges upheld the constitutionality of a law specifying that a family is comprised of a mother and father, saying that is best for a child’s dignity and well-being.
Common sense.

[alb0zfinest]

That's quite a stupid decision. Those gay couples would actually be doing them a favor, since there are plenty of poor kids who aren't taken care of or have no parents.

[Tropico]

Honestly given how horrible gay people have it in some countries around the world including some in the Western Hemisphere like Jamaica, not being able to adopt hardly makes it onto my list of things to complain about.

True. Puerto Rico will better itself socially, one step at a time.

[Tropico]

That's quite a stupid decision. Those gay couples would actually be doing them a favor, since there are plenty of poor kids who aren't taken care of or have no parents.

Yeah well there are people who think having no parents is better than having 2 who are the same gender. Go figure. -_-

[Han Cholo]

Yeah well there are people who think having no parents is better than having 2 who are the same gender. Go figure. -_-

You are not understanding this right man. What makes you think there are no heterosexual, sterile couples in Puerto Rico? I don't understand this progressive way of thinking "handling kids like sweeties" is something good.

Would you have liked growing up with 2 dads and all the social implications that could have?

[Tropico]

You are not understanding this right man. What makes you think there are no heterosexual, sterile couples in Puerto Rico? I don't understand this progressive way of thinking "handling kids like sweeties" is something good.

Would you have liked growing up with 2 dads and all the social implications that could have?

Well, having two dads isnt the issue, its the social implications, like youve stated. If society sees it as no big deal, then the child would have no bullying or social hardships. Once society is ready to accept it, there will be no more issues with homosexuals. I think its too early for Puerto Rico to allow homosexual to adopt, since the Puerto Rican society would look down at it, since the church rules their opinions. With proper education and no social hardships to homosexuals, thing would change, and then adoption by homosexuals would no longer be an issue.

[SkyBurn]

HERP DERP fairgz are baaaaaad HERP DERP

[the next few pages]

[Loki]

I think (personal opinion) it's simply wrong to let a child grow up with two parents of the same gender. It will naturally cause the kid some issues and problems later in life, and it will be an unnatural environment to grow up in.

[Silver_Shadow]

Give it time, things will change in the future especially if what you say about the younger generation in Puerto Rico is true. Same thing is happening in the USA as well. That prejudice attitude towards homosexuality will cease to exist someday, i'm sure of it.

[Tropico]

I think (personal opinion) it's simply wrong to let a child grow up with two parents of the same gender. It will naturally cause the kid some issues and problems later in life, and it will be an unnatural environment to grow up in.

Hmm, I dont think so. Children grow up worldwide in different situations. For thousands of years humans lived in hunter gatherer groups with multiple men and women, a community, not one father one mother. There are tons of examples of children and cultures having one male and many females, that child or children being raised my multiple people and parents. In nature lion cubs are raised by a group of female lionesses, not one male lion and one female. Nature isnt exclusive about having one male one female raise the offspring.

[Sikeliot]

I think (personal opinion) it's simply wrong to let a child grow up with two parents of the same gender. It will naturally cause the kid some issues and problems later in life, and it will be an unnatural environment to grow up in.

I actually agree with this and this is coming from a gay man himself.

I think that it's the principle of the matter that bothers me.. I don't like being told I am not allowed to adopt children, but I would think for a child it'd be awkward to have "two dads" and whatnot.

[SkyBurn]

I think (personal opinion) it's simply wrong to let a child grow up with two parents of the same gender. It will naturally cause the kid some issues and problems later in life, and it will be an unnatural environment to grow up in.

I don't believe the issues and problems are caused by the nature of their parents, but rather, the nature of society's perception. There is nothing inherently unnatural about it; many societies had children be exclusively raised by women or men, for example.

Nothing is "natural" really - humans define their own purposes to life. The word "unnatural" is synonymous with saying "we're not used to it". I'm sure a child would rather live in a healthy and functional household with a same-sex couple than a dysfunctional hetero one. When there's kids who need homes involved, I don't think it matters.

To me, a lonely orphan is more unnatural than same-sex parents will ever be.

[Loki]

Hmm, I dont think so. Children grow up worldwide in different situations. For thousands of years humans lived in hunter gatherer groups with multiple men and women, a community, not one father one mother. There are tons of examples of children and cultures having one male and many females, that child or children being raised my multiple people and parents. In nature lion cubs are raised by a group of female lionesses, not one male lion and one female. Nature isnt exclusive about having one male one female raise the offspring.

We are not lions, and never in the history of humankind was there such a thing. Better no parents than two of the same gender. For the child.

[Sonboy]

I think (personal opinion) it's simply wrong to let a child grow up with two parents of the same gender. It will naturally cause the kid some issues and problems later in life, and it will be an unnatural environment to grow up in.

im agree

[dado]

gays r like notorious sex deviants and to give child to them would be insane

[2012JD]

Hmm, I dont think so. Children grow up worldwide in different situations. For thousands of years humans lived in hunter gatherer groups with multiple men and women, a community, not one father one mother. There are tons of examples of children and cultures having one male and many females, that child or children being raised my multiple people and parents. In nature lion cubs are raised by a group of female lionesses, not one male lion and one female. Nature isnt exclusive about having one male one female raise the offspring.

No . There's always a male lion in a pride . With like like up to 20 lionesses . Such a pimp lol . Either way there is a male present in the pride and he does interact with the cubs too

[Tropico]

We are not lions, and never in the history of humankind was there such a thing. Better no parents than two of the same gender. For the child.

Lions are part of "nature" or are they not. In nature, which is the example you gave, there are countless examples of multiple parents raising their offspring, and being successful. Now, if you want to ignore all of nature and just focus on humans, In polygamous cultures children were raised by one father and his many wives, and since it was ok with their society, no social hardships ever arose. In human gatherer times, the men would all go hunt and the woman left behind would logically all take care of the young, so the youn were raised and taken care of by the collective. If the society gives the children a hard time, its the societies fault, not the fact that th parents are two men, if society accepted it, what issues would arise?

[Tropico]

gays r like notorious sex deviants and to give child to them would be insane

We are here to have intelligent, educated discussions. If you are here to troll, please leave.

[dado]

We are here to have intelligent, educated discussions. If you are here to troll, please leave.

well i'm not gonna leave just because u dont like what i said...deal with it or go and cry somewhere else

[Tropico]

No . There's always a male lion in a pride . With like like up to 20 lionesses . Such a pimp lol . Either way there is a male present in the pride and he does interact with the cubs too

That is true. But who's to say the adopted daughter of two male parents wouldnt have a aunt to look up to or interact with, as a pseudo mother figure? Its hypothetical but possible. And you could argue the fact about single parents and the lack of a male or female parent. Society hasnt deemed it as immoral and two homosexual parents, and the kids do not come out homosexual because they lacked the care of a certain gendered parent.

[2012JD]

That is true. But who's to say the adopted daughter of two male parents wouldnt have a aunt to look up to or interact with, as a pseudo mother figure? Its hypothetical but possible. And you could argue the fact about single parents and the lack of a male or female parent. Society hasnt deemed it as immoral and two homosexual parents, and the kids do not come out homosexual because they lacked the care of a certain gendered parent.

Well for me a mom and aunt it's not the same. I'm sure the aunt won't always be there while the mom would always be there because there's a special bond between mom and daughters , sons too. As a girl i couldn't live with two fathers. I need my mom and I'm sure many girls feel they need a mom too . Not to mention an aunt probably has her own kids to take care of

[Aredhel]

I don't know if the latinamerican society is prepared to accept that gay/lesbian couples adopt children, latinamerican countries are very conservative on average and if they don't accept gay/lesbian marriage, how are they going to accept that adopt children? :confused:

Maybe in a few years this could be possible but first they have to be more liberal, this is the first step.

[Tropico]

Well for me a mom and aunt it's not the same. I'm sure the aunt won't always be there while the mom would always be there because there's a special bond between mom and daughters , sons too. As a girl i couldn't live with two fathers. I need my mom and I'm sure many girls feel they need a mom too . Not to mention an aunt probably has her own kids to take care of

Very true. Has their been any non bias experiments recording the social hardships or social abnormalities faced by children of same sex couples? Other than the usual bullying ( which all kids go through), I mean do those children test lower on tests, are they less likely to be sociall comfortable around the gender that they lacked as a parent, stuff like that?

[Scholarios]

That's quite a stupid decision. Those gay couples would actually be doing them a favor, since there are plenty of poor kids who aren't taken care of or have no parents.

Yeah, true. In Korea, Koreans became so ashamed of so many North Americans adopting unwanted Korean kids they have invented a whole narrative about how all Korean adoptee kids faces constant racism and discrimination in the U.S. and Canada. They have thus limited international adoption to 1000 kids a year. They don't even care one bit that 40,000 orphans are rotting in orphanages in South Korea. I'm always hesitant of these situations where the court rules"in the interest of children".

On the other hand, I can't imagine the problems a kid with two gay parents will have from the stigma and weird socialization that's going to happen to him at school.

[Tropico]

Yeah, true. In Korea, Koreans became so ashamed of so many North Americans adopting unwanted Korean kids they have invented a whole narrative about how all Korean adoptee kids faces constant racism and discrimination in the U.S. and Canada. They have thus limited international adoption to 1000 kids a year. They don't even care one bit that 40,000 orphans are rotting in orphanages in South Korea. I'm always hesitant of these situations where the court rules"in the interest of children".

On the other hand, I can't imagine the problems a kid with two gay parents will have from the stigma and weird socialization that's going to happen to him at school.

The sad thing is that the stigma comes solely from society, the people torment them due to a lack of knowledge and respect. If no one cared that they had two same sex parents, what problems would arise socially?

[Sikeliot]

On the other hand I think that given how many children are never adopted and end up in group homes, wouldn't it be better to put them with any loving family than keep them there?

[SkyBurn]

On the other hand I think that given how many children are never adopted and end up in group homes, wouldn't it be better to put them with any loving family than keep them there?


Of course it would. In a most societies (still trying to shake off their archaic religious undertones), deprivation of childcare is less about giving kids a "good/natural upbringing", and more about punishing people for their sexuality.

[amerinese]

The sad thing is that the stigma comes solely from society, the people torment them due to a lack of knowledge and respect. If no one cared that they had two same sex parents, what problems would arise socially?

I have mixed feelings about it. Surely some gay parents would do a good job, but many gays have their own baggage to deal with, from society, their family, etc. which would spill over into the kid's life.

I have a related question for you. What did you think about people being openly gay in the military, and what do you think about women serving in front line combat. Also, what does your dad think about these issues?

[Sikeliot]

Btw I'll add this.
Despite that I have not always had good experiences with Puerto Ricans in the US, I have to give credit where it is due.. gays have it MUCH better in PR than in 90% of the Caribbean.

[Tropico]

I have mixed feelings about it. Surely some gay parents would do a good job, but many gays have their own baggage to deal with, from society, their family, etc. which would spill over into the kid's life.

I have a related question for you. What did you think about people being openly gay in the military, and what do you think about women serving in front line combat. Also, what does your dad think about these issues?

He is NOT in support of women in the front lines. But he does support the right for the men to have the option of being out in the military, but he also supports the guys who want to keep their sexual preference out of their jobs and keep it to themselves. He says the gay thing hasnt affected the Army one bit. At least not his division.

[2012JD]

Very true. Has their been any non bias experiments recording the social hardships or social abnormalities faced by children of same sex couples? Other than the usual bullying ( which all kids go through), I mean do those children test lower on tests, are they less likely to be sociall comfortable around the gender that they lacked as a parent, stuff like that?

Not that I have read. I would need to research

[Wadaad]

In a heavily Catholic society, where even heterosexual divorce is seen as taboo, being raised by two gay parents will ruin any chance to a dignified life for the potential adoptee. Its a cliche, but somebody please think of the children. I know gays arent thinking of adopting, they just like to use the courts a battleground for their supposed civil rights. Infact, most young gay people HATE children especially gay males. (Then again, so do most young hetero people thesedays.)


On the other hand I think that given how many children are never adopted and end up in group homes, wouldn't it be better to put them with any loving family than keep them there?

Orphans have it bad enough already...last thing they need is to add the stigma of gay parents (who already have their own issues to deal with) raising them

[Sikeliot]

Infact, most young gay people HATE children especially gay males. (Then again, so do most young hetero people thesedays.)

I don't like children and I don't want to adopt. I just am hostile to the government telling me I can't, especially since the government figures that are most anti-gay are the ones who propose "small government".. yes, small government that still wants to decide who does and doesn't have rights.

[Scholarios]

Waddad, you are wrong and generalizing that all gays are not concerned about adopting kids. Sure, when it comes to gay club culture people or whatever, but many gays want and do have children. How about all the gays who have surrogate mothers for their children?

[Hayalet]

How about all the gays who have surrogate mothers for their children?
Gays can't have children with surrogate mothers. The only way to have children is combination of male sperm and female egg, which is heterosexuality.

[Incal]

Yeah, true. In Korea, Koreans became so ashamed of so many North Americans adopting unwanted Korean kids they have invented a whole narrative about how all Korean adoptee kids faces constant racism and discrimination in the U.S. and Canada. They have thus limited international adoption to 1000 kids a year. They don't even care one bit that 40,000 orphans are rotting in orphanages in South Korea. I'm always hesitant of these situations where the court rules"in the interest of children".

On the other hand, I can't imagine the problems a kid with two gay parents will have from the stigma and weird socialization that's going to happen to him at school.

Your post reminded me of this case:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BewknNW2b8Y

[alfieb]

How is this something negative?
I'm with you.

I'm all for civil unions, but I don't like gay adoption. A lesbian couple in Florida convinced a judge to let them put three names on a baby's birth certificate. This redefining parenting is going a bit too far. In France, they want to change "father" and "mother" to "parent one" and "parent two".

[AlexandraD]

"sorry jim, i know you were excited to go to some happy parents who would love to have you, but i don't like who they have sex with in the privacy of their own homes. hey the system youre in now isn't that bad, is it?"

these arguments alwayyys get bogged down in semantics. "well, i don't like how they say MARRIAGE" or "i don't like how they say FAMILY" and the thing is, okay you don't have to use whatever word to describe gay or lesbian anythings ffs. in general, though, i don't find anything terribly wrong with gay adoption.

yes yes yes okay, we can go into all the arguments, most of which i will mention are products of growing up in a social system that vilifies LGBT people. "well how can they be parents, when they are more prone to suicide, drug use, and depression hahaha FUCK gays bro, yo bro" and its like wow :rolleyes: these things tend to be socially ingrained, socially caused, rather than something that is inherently more likely to happen to gay people simply on the premise of their homosexuality. the APA and the AMA have all found nothing terribly wrong with gay adoption, sooo....

also like i said, you can dislike mainstream gay culture, cruising 'bath houses', exhibitionism at the gay pride parade, etc and still not be homophobic to your average gay person. anyways these are more often than not social platforms, and i agree straight people don't have a float where they imitate all sorts of kinky sex on the street (although this is more often than not BDSM culture not gay culture). and ill say this before anyone else does, homosexuality is a completely and wholly a different thing than pedophilia, so don't even bring that up when you say "but what about da kidzzzz....."

edit: and gay couples are less likely to be involved with any of that stuff, in fact they are indistinguishable from your average straight couple. BTW i was reading cosmo (shut up i was bored) and they had 5 guys in it talking about their sex lives, two wanted to get married and didnt have many partners, the other 3 didnt want to be married or have kids and said they just wanted to 'fuck as many girls as possible'. one of them said he had sexx with over 500 girls. holy shit, right? but nobody is calling heterosexuals 'degenerates' in this conversation, because they would say "well thats just that one guy".

so when it comes to gay people, maybe theyre not all the same yaaa? ~

[alfieb]

so when it comes to gay people, maybe theyre not all the same yaaa? ~
Of course they're not the same. You've got girls ranging from diesel dykes to girly lipstick lesbians, and gay dudes ranging from limp wristed sissy faggot to disgustingly hairy football fanatic butch bear.

None of them should be parents. If they want to have kids, do it the old fashioned way, natural vaginal penetration is legal for LGBT people, yanno. They just think it's icky.

[SkyBurn]

Of course they're not the same. You've got girls ranging from diesel dykes to girly lipstick lesbians, and gay dudes ranging from limp wristed sissy faggot to disgustingly hairy football fanatic butch bear.

None of them should be parents. If they want to have kids, do it the old fashioned way, natural vaginal penetration is legal for LGBT people, yanno. They just think it's icky.

But adoption isn't "natural". It's not the "old fashioned way". Adoption is about giving kids to good homes (I just made them sound like puppies, didn't I) and giving people the gift of parenthood. I also reckon there are plenty of single mothers or committed gay couples who would be far more competent that the average Jim and Mary. There should me no blanket rules, but adoption should be done by case-by-case basis.

[alfieb]

You can't stop people from getting pregnant (well, you can, and some countries have forced abortions, but we're not talking about North Korea here...), but you can stop undesirable people from becoming the legal guardian of someone else's kid.

[SkyBurn]

You can't stop people from getting pregnant (well, you can, and some countries have forced abortions, but we're not talking about North Korea here...), but you can stop undesirable people from becoming the legal guardian of someone else's kid.

Hey, if they wear good clothes and know what they like, what's undesirable about that! :p

Edit: sorry for the stereotype play, but a good joke is never to be missed!

[AlexandraD]

Of course they're not the same. You've got girls ranging from diesel dykes to girly lipstick lesbians, and gay dudes ranging from limp wristed sissy faggot to disgustingly hairy football fanatic butch bear.

None of them should be parents. If they want to have kids, do it the old fashioned way, natural vaginal penetration is legal for LGBT people, yanno. They just think it's icky.

:rolleyes:

other than your colourful descriptions, yes there is a big variation so i agree. technically you are right in your descriptions. but btw, most of the terms you have used describe an aspect of gay culture (in the kink community, which is largely comprised of heterosexuals however) that not all gays are a part off. todays generation of kids is different than the last when it comes to LGBT people, mostly because they haven't been *as* ingrained to fear society at large for hating them.

skyburn said it, there's a fallacy right there for ya.

If they want to have kids, do it the old fashioned way, natural vaginal penetration is legal for straight people, yanno. They just think it's icky to have their own kids. switch it around a little and boom. adoption is hardly natural. alot of people who wouldn't have been able to have kids before science caught up with things in 1980's, now are able to. and this was mostly straight people too btw. alot of things aren't 'natural' in the strict sense, but both straight and gay people use them.

[alfieb]

Says a walking, talking stereotype himself, the liberal Jew.

And, Alexandra, let's not paint everyone with a broad brush here.

I'm not saying lesbian or gay people shouldn't have rights or be treated fairly. I'm all for letting localities choose to legalize gay adoption and whatnot. It shouldn't be done at a national, or even worse, international level, one way or the other. Same for gay marriage.

But as far as transgenders, they should all be institutionalized. What a sick, twisted bunch of people.

[SkyBurn]

Says a walking, talking stereotype himself, the liberal Jew.

Being a liberal is no crime. Statistically speaking, most teenage Australians are as well. But I notice you don't bring up the stereotype of the "western youth", but rather, call upon my ethnicity (incorrectly of course, I'm not Jewish) to try and bring down my point with an ad hominem attack instead of a real argument.

[alfieb]

Being a liberal is no crime. Statistically speaking, most teenage Australians are as well. But I notice you don't bring up the stereotype of the "western youth", but rather, call upon my ethnicity (incorrectly of course, I'm not Jewish) to try and bring down my point with an ad hominem attack instead of a real argument.

"Jewish" is not merely a religion, but also an ethnicity. There are Jewish atheists, Jewish buddhists, and Jewish agnostics. There are even Jews for Jesus. I'm speaking facts, while you're just uncomfortable with being called a Jew. I'm sorry you feel that way.

You and I have had this argument before. We're not going to agree, so there's no sense in retreading on the same territory. I'm not going to say anything further.

[Sikeliot]

But as far as transgenders, they should all be institutionalized. What a sick, twisted bunch of people.

I am one of the most liberal people here and I don't think transgenders should be institutionalized, but I have a very hard time calling someone who is biologically male "she", "her", etc. if I know they are not the sex they identify as. However, I also believe in people's right to choose their identity so even as unnatural as it feels to use such pronouns on them or "consider" them what they do, I do try.

[AlexandraD]

Says a walking, talking stereotype himself, the liberal Jew.

And, Alexandra, let's not paint everyone with a broad brush here.

I'm not saying lesbian or gay people shouldn't have rights or be treated fairly. I'm all for letting localities choose to legalize gay adoption and whatnot. It shouldn't be done at a national, or even worse, international level, one way or the other. Same for gay marriage.

But as far as transgenders, they should all be institutionalized. What a sick, twisted bunch of people.

haha okay well that clears things up a little :) you know ive had my own views on many issues evolve through the years. i certainly think we should not force churches to marry gay people against the will of the church. the label of marriage is, i dunno. its important to many people. i think if a specific church wants to marry them, go ahead, but in general an option for a civil union (with all the same rights as a marriage, however - this is where i differ from most people) should always be there.

considering i am probably going to specialize into one of two career pathways, one of which is endocrinology/treating trans people, i should say: they are NOT the stereotypes the media has told you they are, and they do NOT do the things the news shows/papers tell you they do :) do you want the studies that show trans-related stuff is biological, because there is alot of med. lit out there regarding this medical diagnoses'

[SkyBurn]

"Jewish" is not merely a religion, but also an ethnicity. There are Jewish atheists, Jewish buddhists, and Jewish agnostics. There are even Jews for Jesus. I'm speaking facts, while you're just uncomfortable with being called a Jew. I'm sorry you feel that way.
.

Ashkenazi is an ethnicity. Sephardi is an ethnicity. Judaism is a religion. Would you like me to tell you that your ethnicity is Catholicism? I am not ashamed of my Jewish roots, in fact, I'm quite proud of it, which is why I defend them.

[alfieb]

Who said anything about stereotypes of transgendered people? I don't care if the surgeons do a fantastic job and make a man look like a woman, or doctors give a woman wonderful medication that helps her produce werewolf hair on her chest and her chin.

If you were born a man, you're a man. If you're born a woman, you're a woman. If you're born intersex, you have my pity.

Any heterosexual who knowingly dates a transsexual is not heterosexual. You're not dating a woman, you're dating a mentally and emotionally disturbed man who had his genitalia mutilated and has a fake vagina and fake breasts.

I've encountered transwomen who are ostensibly beautiful women to anyone who doesn't know better. So what? There are black women who can pass for white, and white men who can pass for Asian. That doesn't make them so.

These people need electroshock treatment, not hormone treatment.

[AlexandraD]

Who said anything about stereotypes of transgendered people? I don't care if the surgeons do a fantastic job and make a man look like a woman, or doctors give a woman wonderful medication that helps her produce werewolf hair on her chest and her chin.

If you were born a man, you're a man. If you're born a woman, you're a woman. If you're born intersex, you have my pity.

Any heterosexual who knowingly dates a transsexual is not heterosexual. You're not dating a woman, you're dating a mentally and emotionally disturbed man who had his genitalia mutilated and has a fake vagina and fake breasts.

I've encountered transwomen who are ostensibly beautiful women to anyone who doesn't know better. So what? There are black women who can pass for white, and white men who can pass for Asian. That doesn't make them so.

These people need electroshock treatment, not hormone treatment.

uggghhhhhhhh okay i think we will drop the conversation at this point, i don't think there is need for us to have an ugly conversation where we yell at eachother, because otherwise we have interacted fine on TA :) we will agree to disagree, or at least i will :P

[alfieb]

I would expect nothing less from a Canadian. I never hold grudges, so of course It's all good.

[Sikeliot]

My view when it comes to transgenders:

If you want me to address you as female I will. If you want to address you as male, I will. But I do not personally consider you to be anything other than the sex you were born.

I can respect one's choice of gender identity but I can't wrap my head around it, but then again it's not my life so I do not have to.

[alfieb]

My view when it comes to transgenders:

If you want me to address you as female I will. If you want to address you as male, I will. But I do not personally consider you to be anything other than the sex you were born.

I can respect one's choice of gender identity but I can't wrap my head around it, but then again it's not my life so I do not have to.

I want to be able to come to that conclusion, but I don't think I'm there yet. When in doubt, I just don't use a pronoun at all.

[Sikeliot]

I also don't like that transgender is grouped in with gay and lesbian just because people think we're all deviants. The struggles and plight of a transgender and myself are very different and truth be told I personally feel more similar to a straight person than to a transgender. I'm not trying to sound mean, but my life experience is no more similar to a transgender than a heterosexual.

[Slycooper]

I am against the changing of your appearance to look like the opposite sex. Stupid imo.

[Sikeliot]

The idea is that "male" and "female", "man" and "woman" are socially constructed terms with no substance behind them and thus some would argue there is nothing wrong with anyone choosing to identify permanently or temporarily as male, female, or neither. There are some people also who choose not to identify as either sex and there are pronouns that go along with that as well.

Granted, I don't agree that "man" and "woman" are simply socially constructed and meaningless, but that is just me.

[alfieb]

I also don't like that transgender is grouped in with gay and lesbian just because people think we're all deviants. The struggles and plight of a transgender and myself are very different and truth be told I personally feel more similar to a straight person than to a transgender. I'm not trying to sound mean, but my life experience is no more similar to a transgender than a heterosexual.

Understandable. There's a lot of division in the LGBT community, it seems. I've seen a lot of gay-on-bisexual hostility, in particular.

I don't know why all sexual minority groups feel the need to be grouped together. Isn't the whole goal to be treated as individuals? Kind-of counterproductive to wear a label as a scarlet letter.

[Sikeliot]

Understandable. There's a lot of division in the LGBT community, it seems. I've seen a lot of gay-on-bisexual hostility, in particular.

I don't know why all sexual minority groups feel the need to be grouped together. Isn't the whole goal to be treated as individuals? Kind-of counterproductive to wear a label as a scarlet letter.

Well this is coming from someone who does not choose to be an active member of the gay community apart from whoever I am dating.. but I don't feel any special solidarity with other gay people just because we are sexually attracted to members of our same sex.

[Slycooper]

If your gay your gay. It's your life. Just don't show it to much in public. Like the ones that have a girl voice. It bugs me. To hear a guy sound like that

[Sikeliot]

Like the ones that have a girl voice. It bugs me. To hear a guy sound like that

I'm convinced they talk that way on purpose. Because I have gay friends who don't sound like that most of the time and then once they get around their other gay friends, they do.

I never sound like that. :lol:

[Slycooper]

I'm convinced they talk that way on purpose. Because I have gay friends who don't sound like that most of the time and then once they get around their other gay friends, they do.

I never sound like that. :lol:

W.e the case it's annoying as hell.

[alfieb]

I have gay friends who don't sound like that most of the time

Likewise. Although I would add that there are gay dudes who, when their girl-friends come around, turn into a cliched stereotype. It doesn't necessarily have to be other gays.


W.e the case it's annoying as hell.

I'd imagine they do it on purpose.

[Sikeliot]

I'd imagine they do it on purpose.

They do. I've never met anyone who actually talks like that or is incapable of not talking that way when they have to.

[amerinese]

They do. I've never met anyone who actually talks like that or is incapable of not talking that way when they have to.

I have met a couple of men in my life who had a developmental issue with their larynx and sounded like women. They weren't gay, though, as far as I know.

That character "High-pitched Eric" from the Howard Stern show was like that.

[alfieb]

I have met a couple of men in my life who had a developmental issue with their larynx and sounded like women. They weren't gay, though, as far as I know.

That character "High-pitched Eric" from the Howard Stern show was like that.

And then there's guys like Mike Tyson. I dare you to call him a faggot. :lol:

[amerinese]

And then there's guys like Mike Tyson. I dare you to call him a faggot. :lol:

Haha yeah, exactly.

Mike Tyson quote, responding to some male reporter: "I'll fuck you 'till you love me."

[alfieb]

"I'll fuck your ass in front of everybody, you bitch! Scared of the real man. I'll fuck you till you love me, faggot!" -Mike Tyson

Now there's a man who's secure in his masculinity. That, or prison really changed him.