R1b1c (R-V88) and R1b1a1 (R-M73) were they spread by Caucasians

[ButlerKing]

Okay, so apparently it seems both are Caucasian male origin no doubt, R1b marker is found highest in Europe.... however the problem is that it's subclades exists in non-Caucasian people.

R1b1c (R-V88) expanded to Africa 7000 years ago and they carry frequencies of 52% - 91% among the Chadic speaking people of Cameroon and they look the blackest you can get, some may have Caucasian look to it but that's it, this same marker is found in low frequencies in Algerian berbers and Northern Egyptians, among Berbers from Siwa is 28% is also found low frequencies in some berber groups. Did these R-V88 markers already existed in North Africa or was this the result of expansion to North Africa from Central Africa?

And if they did, would they have already looked these
http://fakoamerica.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/17/cameroon_opposition.jpg
http://sajocah.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/sj-101.jpg



According to racial anthropology Bashkir Tatars were already mixed 5000 years ago, only recent Mongolian haplogroup C3 and O3 markers ( 2 -16% ) can be considered recent Mongoloid admixture but their mongoloid phenotypes was increased only slightly by 1-3% which is barely nothing, they carry high frequencies markers of R1b1a1 (R-M73) which is 13.5 to 55%. However they found 32% of Hazara in Pakistan with such marker, four out of 523 Turkish or 0.76% and 2 Russians out of 2 hundreds samples have R-M73, both which are low frequencies. The Bashkir Tatars are about 38% Mongoloid racially on average and with ranging 25 - 75%.

Same question, did they already looked like this when they expanded these markers to Turkey, Pakistan, Russia or did they existed already in them and has nothing to do with these Baskir Tatars?

http://themoscownews.com/images/18792/67/187926792.jpg
http://archive.worldhistoria.com/uploads/6162/Bashkir2.jpg

[Ibericus]

The purest negroids are the Pygmies and San, not west/central-africans, which are a bit eurasian shifted in regards to the first ones,

[ButlerKing]

Come on guys, you're not answering my question. Let me make a example again. Tuntakhatum is R1b so am I, he is North African Caucasian according to anthropologist but the problem now, is he really paternally related with European or with Central Africans?

http://excellentpix.com/files/funzug/imgs/informative/king_tut_treasures_02.jpg
http://www.perankhgroup.com/KingTut.jpg
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2005/05/11/image694582x.jpg

[ButlerKing]

The Egyptians also have 7% of R1b in some parts of North Africa, are they really related with Europeans?

http://www.armyrecognition.com/forum_pic/soldier/egypt/Egyptian_Army_Soldiers_001.jpg
http://www.trbimg.com/img-510c4d98/turbine/la-afp-getty-topshots-egypt-politics-unrest.jpg-20130201/600/600x400

[ButlerKing]

Come on guys I'm confused, I need your help on this R1b1c (R-V88) and R1b1a1 (R-M73) subject

I want to know, please help me out.

[Allenson]

I don't think it's been proven one way or another that Tut was an R1ber.

As for the V88, it's been speculated that it's presence in north & west Africa is the result of a back migration of a caucasoid-type people from western Asia/southeastern Europe into Africa.

V88 is not upstream of any of the European R1b lineages but is instead, a seperate branch altogether.

[ButlerKing]

I don't think it's been proven one way or another that Tut was an R1ber.

As for the V88, it's been speculated that it's presence in north & west Africa is the result of a back migration of a caucasoid-type people from western Asia/southeastern Europe into Africa.

V88 is not upstream of any of the European R1b lineages but is instead, a seperate branch altogether.

Than why have all news concluded he was R1b?

So V88 was a caucasian lineage that came from Europe and North Africa, okay.

What about R-M73 can this marker be considered Caucasian or Turkic ( as in half Mongoloid male marker?)

[Damião de Góis]

R1b is too fragmented in subclades to be mentioned as one. There are regional subclades which almost can be considered a different haplogroup. It's like mentioning R1 which would include both R1a and R1b but the two have a very different distribution.

[wvwvw]

Some Egyptians of the lighter variant:

http://www.lossofprivacy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/pb-110128-egypt-unrest-kiss-ps.photoblog900.jpg

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/600-7/photos/1300591891-egyptians-vote-in-constitutional-amendments-referendum-_629097.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/egypt-morsi-continue-revolution-096/president-elect-morsi-thousands-egyptians.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9wi1iPqtv1rnjg6eo1_1280.jpg

[ButlerKing]

R1b is too fragmented in subclades to be mentioned as one. There are regional subclades which almost can be considered a different haplogroup. It's like mentioning R1 which would include both R1a and R1b but the two have a very different distribution.

I know that, I only wanted to know if R1b1c (R-V88) in north Africa was spread by Central Africans like the chad
or if R1b1a1 (R-M73) in Russians, Turkish, and Hazara were spread by people who look like modern Bashkir Tatars

[ButlerKing]

Haplogroup R1b.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

[Sky earth]

I think that y-DNA Haplogroups are heavily addicted to mtDNA Haplogroups. Bashkirs are almost half Mongoloid/Caucasoid on the maternal side and so it's their pheontype. Another theory could be that few Caucasoid Bashkir men mixed with many Mongoloid women in this area. mtDNA Haplogroups correlate always better with phenotypes than y-DNA Haplogroups. The same goes for the Hausa people with their high frequent of R1b in Africa.

[Damião de Góis]

As i was saying, "R1b" is very vague, so the map above is very misleading. My haplogroup is limited to:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THq_t3eR6JI/AAAAAAAACjg/ECinYNcEUB8/s400/s116.jpg

[ButlerKing]

I think that y-DNA Haplogroups are heavily addicted to mtDNA Haplogroups. Bashkirs are almost half Mongoloid/Caucasoid on the maternal side and so it's their pheontype. Another theory could be that few Caucasoid Bashkir men mixed with many Mongoloid women in this area. mtDNA Haplogroups correlate always better with phenotypes than y-DNA Haplogroups. The same goes for the Hausa people with their high frequent of R1b in Africa.

Intermixture happened very long ago, they are theorized to be related with Andronovo people of Kazakhstan and Siberians Mongoloid.

Yes they have about 33% Mongoloid mtDNA on average in some region 45% they also 16% Mongoloid Y-DNA haplogroup N don't know if it's Yakuts or Finno ugric, and if we add Q a total of 19%, this happenned long before the introduction of C3 and O3. So basically Baskhir Tatar was not effected by Mongol invasion.

As for the Hausu people with R-V88, I don't get why they have such high frequencies while Caucasian population at such low frequencies

[ButlerKing]

Here are Bashkir Tatar genetics but it depends on some regions.


http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/bashkirs.html

R1b1b2 (R1b1b2-M269) and 13.2% to R1b1b1. R1a1 (R-SRY10831.2) was found among 26.3%, and 17% had N1c (N1c-Tat). Less common were haplogroups like E-M35, C-M48, G-P15, L-M20, N-P43, O-M175,

Here are only some regions of Baskhorstan, not all the location was sampled in this study.

http://i50.tinypic.com/jfxb42.jpg
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/images/lobov-bashkir-freqs.jpg

[ButlerKing]

As i was saying, "R1b" is very vague, so the map above is very misleading. My haplogroup is limited to:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THq_t3eR6JI/AAAAAAAACjg/ECinYNcEUB8/s400/s116.jpg

Trust me, I know.

I was referring to the origin of my types of R1b not yours.

[Sky earth]

Intermixture happened very long ago, they are theorized to be related with Andronovo people of Kazakhstan and Siberians Mopngoloid.

Yes they have about 33% Mongoloid mtDNA on average in some region 45% they also 16% Mongoloid Y-DNA haplogroup Q, and if N in Bashkir Tatars is from Yakuts than a total of 19%, this happenned long before the introduction of C3 and O3. So basically Baskhir Tatar was not effected by Mongol invasion.

As for the Hausu people with R-V88, I don't get why they have such high frequencies while Caucasian population at such low frequencies

I know that Bashkirs were not genetically effected by the Mongol invasion like the Chuvashs, Tatars and Finno-Ugrians in this area. Ancient cultures in Siberia show genetically almost always Caucasian men who mixed with Eurasian women.

[ButlerKing]

I know that Bashkirs were not genetically effected by the Mongol invasion like the Chuvashs, Tatars and Finno-Ugrians in this area. Ancient cultures in Siberia show genetically almost always Caucasian men who mixed with Eurasian women.

That's what I mean, the mixture properly happened during Neolithic times where there was only a few hundred people, just like how European Jews are descended from only 4 women or how the Finns paternal marker are only descendants of few Haplogroup N from Eastern Siberia. Later these hybrids intermarried among themselves and created this ridiculously high genetic drift.


Here are Tatars haplogroup.

Татары. Объем выборки- 450.

N1b- 21,0
R1a- 19,0
I1- 13,2
N1c- 13,0
J2- 8,1
R1b1b2- 6,0
E1b1a- 4,0
O- 3,0
I2a- 2,8
C- 2,7
I2b- 1,8
G- 1,0
J1- 1,0
L- 1,0
Q- 1,0
T- 1,0

Rootsi 2007, Tambets 2004, Balanovsky in prep., Wells 2001

Источник: "Балановский О.П., Пшеничнов А.С., Сычев Р.С., Евсеева И.В., Балановская Е.В. Y-base: частоты гаплогрупп Y хромосомы у народов мира, 2010; www.genofond.ru"

[ButlerKing]

So it seems other Tatars have low frequencies of R1b

[Sky earth]

That's what I mean, the mixture properly happened during Neolithic times where there was only a few hundred people, just like how European Jews are descended from only 4 women or how the Finns paternal marker are only descendants of few Haplogroup N from Eastern Siberia. Later these hybrids intermarried among themselves and created this ridiculously high genetic drift.


Here are Tatars haplogroup.

Татары. Объем выборки- 450.

N1b- 21,0
R1a- 19,0
I1- 13,2
N1c- 13,0
J2- 8,1
R1b1b2- 6,0
E1b1a- 4,0
O- 3,0
I2a- 2,8
C- 2,7
I2b- 1,8
G- 1,0
J1- 1,0
L- 1,0
Q- 1,0
T- 1,0

Rootsi 2007, Tambets 2004, Balanovsky in prep., Wells 2001

Источник: "Балановский О.П., Пшеничнов А.С., Сычев Р.С., Евсеева И.В., Балановская Е.В. Y-base: частоты гаплогрупп Y хромосомы у народов мира, 2010; www.genofond.ru"

Wow I'm surprised that Tatars have so much N. I thought they were mostly R1a.
I have the mtDNA of Volga Tatars here and fits to their phenotype better

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/05/10/molbev.msq065.short?rss=1

[ButlerKing]

Wow I'm surprised that Tatars have so much N. I thought they were mostly R1a.
I have the mtDNA of Volga Tatars here and fits to their phenotype better

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/05/10/molbev.msq065.short?rss=1

I think it depends on the samples from different regions. The Chuvash have quite high frequency of R1a however in another study it showed they were only 15-20% R1a, less than half of what it was.

[Ülev]

AmerIndian heritage, real red-skinned people unable to tan who burn in the sun (nowadays North Europeans), it's Indians who conquered north Eurasia (and parts of Africa)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

[Rethel]

Subscribed.

[Ülev]

Hello R1b folk


https://youtu.be/A3I8BISQfWc

http://i40.tinypic.com/14tu5xt.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/293bwup.jpg


more here ---> http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1458/white-males