What meta-ethnicity are Armenians?

[Musso]

I've been a bit confused on this term. I vaguely understand the notion of 'meta-ethnicity' for example 'Celto-Germanic' and so forth, but what meta-ethnicity would, let's say Armenians fall under? Caucasoid? Indo-European? just Armenian?

[Smaug]

They are isolated within the Indo-European family.

[gregorius]

Anatolian or something ?

[StonyArabia]

Anatolian

[Musso]

I wouldn't say Anatolian is accurate, because the Armenian ancestral homeland (Armenian Highlands) spans Eastern Anatolia and Southern Caucasus.

Uhtred is right though. Especially our language is such an isolate.

[Loki]

They are isolated within the Indo-European family.

Yes, I believe Armenians are a branch on their own, much like the Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

Anatolian more than Caucasus, but I would be thinking Anatolian and Mesopotamian.

[Musso]

Anatolian more than Caucasus, but I would be thinking Anatolian and Mesopotamian.

We don't come from Mesopotamia...those are the Assyrians ;)

[Sikeliot]

We don't come from Mesopotamia...those are the Assyrians ;)

Mesopotamian means anyone from between the Tigris and Euphrates. Wasn't the original Armenian homeland near where those two rivers start in eastern Turkey?

[Azalea]

Anatolian more than Caucasus, but I would be thinking Anatolian and Mesopotamian.

Anatolian Armenians are mostly from Eastern Anatolia - which is considered to be a part of Anatolia only recently with the birth of the Turkish republic. Traditional Anatolia doesn't include Eastern Turkey.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg

^Original Anatolia.

[Musso]

Armenian Highlands (Armenian ancestral homeland) in order to clarify:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Armenian_Highlands.jpg

It should be noted that the heart of the Armenian Homeland is considered the area around Ararat Mountain (Ararat plain).

[MfA_]

Armenic would be sufficient me thinks..

[ALL]

Here is a diagram where Armenian language cluster.
Hittite["Hittite is the earliest attested Indo-European language."]/Luvian/Lycian= Anatolian
http://www.mpi.nl/news/TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg

"The population tree (Figure 3A) splits Levantine populations in two branches: one leading to Europeans and Central Asians that includes Lebanese, Armenians, Cypriots, Druze and Jews, as well as Turks, Iranians and Caucasian populations; and a second branch composed of Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, as well as North Africans, Ethiopians, Saudis, and Bedouins."

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316#pgen-1003316-g003

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

[Musso]

Here is a diagram where Armenian language cluster.
Hittite["Hittite is the earliest attested Indo-European language."]/Luvian/Lycian= Anatolian
http://www.mpi.nl/news/TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg

"The population tree (Figure 3A) splits Levantine populations in two branches: one leading to Europeans and Central Asians that includes Lebanese, Armenians, Cypriots, Druze and Jews, as well as Turks, Iranians and Caucasian populations; and a second branch composed of Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, as well as North Africans, Ethiopians, Saudis, and Bedouins."

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316#pgen-1003316-g003

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

now that's isolated ;)

[Artavazt]

Caucasian i would say.
I wouldnt use the term "anatolian" because the racial make up of anatolia has been changed a lot in the last few centuries,specialy eastern anatolia. Also saying mesopotamian is completly stupid and ridiculous.

[Hoca]

Hard to say which meta-ethnicty Armenians are. Armenians are closest to Kurds but also have some Arab Yemen and Persian blood. I would summarize it as Armenic because Armenians have their own look. They have their own nose and head shape that makes them distinct.

[Musso]

Hard to say which meta-ethnicty Armenians are. Armenians are closest to Kurds but also have some Arab Yemen and Persian blood. I would summarize it as Armenic because Armenians have their own look. They have their own nose and head shape that makes them distinct.

troll get out.

[Hoca]

Somebody has problems with the truth.

[Scholarios]

Hard to say which meta-ethnicty Turks are. Turks are closest to Greeks but also have some Arab, Armenian and Persian blood. I would summarize it as Turkoid because Turks have their own look. They have their own nose and head shape that makes them distinct.

[kabeiros]

Here is a diagram where Armenian language cluster.
Hittite["Hittite is the earliest attested Indo-European language."]/Luvian/Lycian= Anatolian
http://www.mpi.nl/news/TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg Where did you find this diagram, can you give me a link? I've never seen Greek clustering with Albanian before, I'm interested to read more about it.

[Musso]

Somebody has problems with the truth.

I have problems with trolls.

[American_Hispanist]

Armenic. Armenians have their own look.

[Hoca]

I have problems with trolls.

No, I don't think that.

[Loki]

Hard to say which meta-ethnicty Armenians are. Armenians are closest to Kurds but also have some Arab Yemen and Persian blood. I would summarize it as Armenic because Armenians have their own look. They have their own nose and head shape that makes them distinct.

Their mixture have nothing to do with their meta-ethnicity. Linguistically and historically the group is a distinct IE branch, as mentioned before.

[Musso]

No, I don't think that.

It seems you don't think very often.

[Musso]

Their mixture have nothing to do with their meta-ethnicity. Linguistically and historically the group is a distinct IE branch, as mentioned before.

You are right. And when it comes to 'mixture' Armenians don't genetically cluster with Persians or Kurds, even if our languages are more similar.

Interesting article: http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Y-paper.pdf


A previous analysis of mtDNA variation in the
Caucasus found that Indo-European-speaking Armenians
and Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanians were more closely
related genetically to other Caucasus populations (who
speak Caucasian languages) than to other Indo-European
or Turkic groups, respectively. Armenian and Azerbaijanian therefore represent language replacements, possibly
via elite dominance involving primarily male migrants, in
which case genetic relationships of Armenians and Azerbaijanians based on the Y-chromosome should more closely
reflect their linguistic relationships. We therefore analyzed 11 bi-allelic Y-chromosome markers in 389 males
from eight populations, representing all major linguistic
groups in the Caucasus. As with the mtDNA study, based
on the Y-chromosome Armenians and Azerbaijanians are
more closely-related genetically to their geographic
neighbors in the Caucasus than to their linguistic neighbors elsewhere. However, whereas the mtDNA results show
that Caucasian groups are more closely related genetically
to European than to Near Eastern groups, by contrast the
Y-chromosome shows a closer genetic relationship with
the Near East than with Europe.

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Y-paper.pdf

Check out the graphs in the end.

[rashka]

I guess you can say they are a West Asian meta-ethnicity. What does West Asian include? That's the other question.

[Musso]

I guess you can say they are a West Asian meta-ethnicity. What does West Asian include? That's the other question.

West Asian is very broad

[Loki]

I guess you can say they are a West Asian meta-ethnicity. What does West Asian include? That's the other question.

I guess West Asian is more of a genetic term, rather than an ethnic one.

[Yalquzaq]

You are right. And when it comes to 'mixture' Armenians don't genetically cluster with Persians or Kurds, even if our languages are more similar.

Interesting article: http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Y-paper.pdf

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Y-paper.pdf

Check out the graphs in the end.

It is only natural for peoples from same geographical regions to be similar to each other, but it neither reflects the actual origin. For instance if we accept Oghuz Turks (I.E ancestors of Azerbaijani Turks) as one of the most recent settlers in Caucasus, it still dates to a millenium ago, which is actually a very long time. Historical, cultural and genetical relations between the peoples of the same region is inevitable. But again, this should not mislead people about the roots and origins of one nation.

Here is an example of Azerbaijani costume, identical to North Caucasus.

http://i50.tinypic.com/14uvqlh.jpg

If I were to give an example from North-Caucasus, the Turkic Karachay and Balkars has been influenced by Circassians to such extent that even their singing style is identical.

[Musso]

It is only natural for peoples from same geographical regions to be similar to each other, but it neither reflects the actual origin. For instance if we accept Oghuz Turks (I.E ancestors of Azerbaijani Turks) as the most recent settlers in Caucasus, it still dates to a millenium ago, which is actually a very long time. Historical, cultural and genetical relations between the peoples of the same region is inevitable. But again, this should not mislead people about the roots and origins of one nation.

Here is an example of Azerbaijani costume, identical to North Caucasus.

http://i50.tinypic.com/14uvqlh.jpg

If I were to give an example from North-Caucasus, the Turkic Karachay and Balkars has been influenced by Circassians to such extent that even their singing style is identical.

I think it's obvious that people will genetically reflect the people they have been living besides for centuries upon centuries, unless they are divided by some major geographic feature such as mountains/bodies of watter.

Azeris have a lot of Persian influence in their culture, language, and origins also. More so than anybody else in the Caucasus. That is sometimes forgotten.

[Yalquzaq]

The history of Azerbaijani Turks should be studied and viewed in the context of: Seljuqs, Qara-Qoyunlu, Aq-Qoyunlu and Safavids. Let me remind you that the very name of "Azeri" is a recent invention, before that we were known as plain "Turks" or actually "Tatars" inside Russian Empire (but this was not a correct designation), in history we are Turkmans during Aq-Qoyunlu and Qara-Qoyunlu, Qizilbash during Safavid period (actually the Qizilbash identity existed all the way until Russian invasion, one can see how the Khan of Ganja refers to himself as a Qizilbash in his letter to a Russian general) and plain "Turks". Our language is "Türki" or "Türk Dili" (Turk language). I actually get tired of having to explain this all the time.

And if you study in this regard, all of these states had influences from Persian culture, it would be impossible for Azerbaijani Turks to remain outside of that influence. Just read shortly about Seljuqs, and you will understand what I mean. Basically, the influence of Persian on Azerbaijani culture and language is through Turkic domination over Iran. BTW, also let me remind you that Armenians do have the Mesapotamian element which you disregard, "more than anybody else in the Caucasus". Armenians is definetly not natives of Caucasus and hence are not Caucasians, that much is clear.

The forgotten part is actually the influence of Azerbaijani Turks on Persian culture, language and even origins, there is more than 1200 words of Azerbaijani origin in Persian, which entered Persian during Safavid era, I would like to mention this fact which is probably unknown to you. And lets not forget that Qizilbash tribes had spread to all over Iran during Safavid era, which means that there is definetly Persians with such ancestry.

[Musso]

The history of Azerbaijani Turks should be studied and viewed in the context of: Seljuqs, Qara-Qoyunlu, Aq-Qoyunlu and Safavids. Let me remind you that the very name of "Azeri" is a recent invention, before that were known as plain "Turks" or actually "Tatars" inside Russian Empire (but this was not a correct designation), in history we are Turkmans during Aq-Qoyunlu and Qara-Qoyunlu, Qizilbash during Safavid period (actually Azerbaijani Turks considered themsleves as Qizilbash all the way until Russian invasion, one can see how the Khan of Ganja refers to himself as a Qizilbash in his letter to a Russian general) and plain "Turks". Our language is "Türki" or "Türk Dili" (Turk language). I actually get tired of having to explain this all the time.

And if you study in this regard, all of these states had influences from Persian culture, it would be impossible for Azerbaijani Turks to remain outside of that influence. One part I do not agree is the "origin", maybe partly true for our bretherns in south, and let me remind you that Armenians do actually have the Mesapotamian part which you disregarded, "more than anybody else in Caucasus".

The forgotten part is actually the influence of Azerbaijani Turks on Persian culture, language and even origins, there is more than 1200 words of Azerbaijani origin in Persian, I would like to mention this fact which is probably unknown to you.

You'are right about the name 'Azeri' and the modern nation of 'Azerbaijan' being a recent invention. Of course all nations in the region had influence from Persia including Armenian and Georgian.

What 'Mesapotamian' part are you talking about? Armenian homeland stretches into Anatolia so we have the components natural to that area, more so than let's say Georgians. Our ancestral homeland doesn't go as South as Mesopotamia.

There might have been some Turkic influence on Persians, but I'm not certain that it was very significant. Persians had much more Arab influence, if we are talking about foreign influence.

[Yalquzaq]

I referred to "Azeri" name as the recent invention, otherwise our nation exists since Seljuqs.

Well, Mesapotamian components actually do exist in Armenian culture, wether you agree or not.

Actually: "Many Azeri words (about 1,200) entered Persian, since Iran was governed mostly by Azeri-speaking rulers and soldiers since the 16th century (Doerfer, 1963-75); these loanwords refer mainly to administration, titles, and conduct of war."

A basic example is the word "Qoşun" in Persian (military troop/force), which has entered Persian from Azerbaijani Turkish. Or "Dustaq" (captive) and "Tuğ" (battle standard). Countless of other examples can be given.

The influence of Azerbaijani Turkish on Persian is also not entirely limited to vocabulary. For instance, the morphological case marking "miş" in Persian is from Azerbaijani Turkish.

[Artavazt]

, also let me remind you that Armenians do have the Mesapotamian element which you disregard, "more than anybody else in the Caucasus". Armenians is definetly not natives of Caucasus and hence are not Caucasians, that much is clear.


If we had mesopotomaian elements we wouldnt deny it, there are lots of theories that link chechens,circassians...etc with mesopotamians. Last year there was a dagestani guy saying that north caucasians have messopotamian origins, i also read on chechen website about links between chechen language and messopotamian languages.

Armenians are more caucasian than azeris will ever be.
Ararat mountain "near yerevan" is the symbol of armenia and armenian nation, and yerevan/erebuni which is located in caucas is the oldest armenian capital/city. And its mentioned in history of hurrians/urartians that they were originated near Ararat then later spreaded to rest of Anatolia.

[Yalquzaq]

"Armenians are more caucasian than azeris will ever be."

Certainly not in cultural elements, and let me remind you the Caucasian Albania.

You seem to have a poor understanding of Caucasian Mountains it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Caucasus

Also, I'm not saying that we are (native) Caucasians (we are "Caucasian", but only in a geographical sense), which we aren't (we are Turks), but Armenians are certainly not a native Caucasian nation (Georgians, North Caucasians) either, evidenced by language aswell.

[Xyresic]

I like the sound of Armenic, but I guess they can use Indo-European or Semito-Anatolian or Semito-Caucasian.

[Mans not hot]

Hellenics?

[asingh]

Your meta-ethnicity would/could be your language group, where it stems from. Caucasian is not a right nomenclature for this.

[Archduke]

Slavic obviously.

[alfieb]

Slavic obviously.
I hope you're trolling with that.

[Gospodine]

Linguistically, Armenian broke off from the Graeco-Armeno-Aryan branch around 3000BC and indeed has the most (albeit quite distant) similarity to Sanskrit, Old Persian and Phrygian.

Genetically though, that's an entirely different story. They are genetically closest to Azeris ironically, along with Iranian Azeris and North-Western Iranian groups. I doubt it has much to do Persian influence in the Caucasus and Armenia since the BC era and everything to do with the Zagros mountains shielding North-Western Iran and present-day Armenia from significant gene flow further South. (Hence them clustering away from Arab groups)

http://forum.hyeclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2577&d=1341712501

[Yalquzaq]

How accurate and representative would be the above chart, in most of different studies Azerbaijanis do not cluster with Kurds and Iranians, so I would not make much out of it. For instance the one posted by Mosov, and many others. In fact, the one posted by Mosov does not even show a slight relation between Azerbaijani Turks and Persians in terms of hablogroups.

And for instance:

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/mtDNAFrequencies1.gif

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/turkgenes.png

So I would not make much out of those "studies", if anything at all, when they all show different "results".

[ALL]

Where did you find this diagram, can you give me a link? I've never seen Greek clustering with Albanian before, I'm interested to read more about it.
I just happened to stumble upon this by accident.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6097/957.abstract


How accurate would be the above chart, in most of different studies Azerbaijanis do not cluster with Kurds and Iranians, so I would not make much out of it. For instance the one posted by Mosov, and many others.

For instance:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/turkgenes.png

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

ARM-Armenians in blue-Armenian cluster Figure 2_ European-West Asian branch Figure 3. Multidimensional scaling of >240K SNPs showing the top two dimensions.
show more.

Main plot shows global diversity using 50 populations. Inset shows Levantine populations in their regional and religion context. The Levant region includes Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, and often Cyprus and historical Armenia. The Levantine core cluster is shaded in pink.

[Hayalet]

Well, they don't have one, they are ethnolinguistically isolated. And from what I have seen, Armenians don't care much for a regional macro-identity with Georgians or a religious one with Assyrians.

[Musso]

I referred to "Azeri" name as the recent invention, otherwise our nation exists since Seljuqs.

Well, Mesapotamian components actually do exist in Armenian culture, wether you agree or not.

Actually: "Many Azeri words (about 1,200) entered Persian, since Iran was governed mostly by Azeri-speaking rulers and soldiers since the 16th century (Doerfer, 1963-75); these loanwords refer mainly to administration, titles, and conduct of war."

A basic example is the word "Qoşun" in Persian (military troop/force), which has entered Persian from Azerbaijani Turkish. Or "Dustaq" (captive) and "Tuğ" (battle standard). Countless of other examples can be given.

The influence of Azerbaijani Turkish on Persian is also not entirely limited to vocabulary. For instance, the morphological case marking "miş" in Persian is from Azerbaijani Turkish.

Yes but the modern day nation of Azerbaijan is a relatively new concept. Turkic tribes have existed in the region much further in time of course, but they weren't equivalent to the Azeri identity of today.

Interesting about the Azeri influence. Armenian has had the most linguistic influence from Persian, which led linguists centuries ago to classify Armenian as a Persian language.


Linguistically, Armenian broke off from the Graeco-Armeno-Aryan branch around 3000BC and indeed has the most (albeit quite distant) similarity to Sanskrit, Old Persian and Phrygian.

Genetically though, that's an entirely different story. They are genetically closest to Azeris ironically, along with Iranian Azeris and North-Western Iranian groups. I doubt it has much to do Persian influence in the Caucasus and Armenia since the BC era and everything to do with the Zagros mountains shielding North-Western Iran and present-day Armenia from significant gene flow further South. (Hence them clustering away from Arab groups)

http://forum.hyeclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2577&d=1341712501

One should remember that modern day Azeris include admixtures of different people in the Caucasus region that assimilated into that identity. Given this, one shouldn't be surprised that Azeris and Armenians genetically are actually close to each other. I'm sure this is not a popular thing to say, but from the genetics I have studied, Azeris and Armenians are closer to each other than to Persians. This shows that language connections don't really mean genetic connections. I wonder how the genetic relation is between Azeris and Georgians.


How accurate and representative would be the above chart, in most of different studies Azerbaijanis do not cluster with Kurds and Iranians, so I would not make much out of it. For instance the one posted by Mosov, and many others. In fact, the one posted by Mosov does not even show a slight relation between Azerbaijani Turks and Persians in terms of hablogroups.

And for instance:

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/mtDNAFrequencies1.gif

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/turkgenes.png

So I would not make much out of those "studies", if anything at all, when they all show different "results".

I'd think that Iranian Azeris cluster with Iranians. I know Armenians, don't cluster with Kurds or Iranians. As for your second plot, it doesn't make sense. Why would Armenians be so much closer to North Caucasians than Georgians? Georgians are much closer to North Caucasians. Also, Albania being so close to Georgia doesn't make sense.


Well, they don't have one, they are ethnolinguistically isolated. And from what I have seen, Armenians don't care much for a regional macro-identity with Georgians or a religious one with Assyrians.

You're right, we don't really have a macro-identity with any other group, besides Hemshin people, which are our ethnic cousins, speaking our language.

[Yalquzaq]

I didn't say that it made sense, I was exactly trying to show that there is alot of conflicting "results".

[Loki]

One should remember that modern day Azeris include admixtures of different people in the Caucasus region that assimilated into that identity. Given this, one shouldn't be surprised that Azeris and Armenians genetically are actually close to each other.

Yes, for example both took in the population of Caucasian Albanians.

[Szegedist]

Armenians are Armenians, a group on their own.

[StonyArabia]

There was an Iranian Azeri on ABF he kept saying that Azeris were Turkified North Iranians, and posted some plots and graphs to show this, but maybe the Azeris in Iran are different than the ones in the republic. He felt more Iranian, than a Turk and often ridiculed pan-Turkism.

As for the topic,

Anatolian can work
Mesopotimo-Anatolian can work
Indo-European
or just Hay

[Yalquzaq]

Yes but the modern day nation of Azerbaijan is a relatively new concept. Turkic tribes have existed in the region much further in time of course, but they weren't equivalent to the Azeri identity of today.

One should remember that modern day Azeris include admixtures of different people in the Caucasus region that assimilated into that identity. Given this, one shouldn't be surprised that Azeris and Armenians genetically are actually close to each other. I'm sure this is not a popular thing to say, but from the genetics I have studied, Azeris and Armenians are closer to each other than to Persians. This shows that language connections don't really mean genetic connections. I wonder how the genetic relation is between Azeris and Georgians.


True, there were tribes in the past and not a single unified nation, but it seems they still had factors and terms which united them. During Safavid era, there was the concept of Turkman vs Tajik, Turkman referring to Azerbaijani Turks (Qizilbash tribes), Tajik referring to Persians and rest of Iranian populations.

In addition, we also have what one calls "Mongoloid" admixture unlike other peoples of Transcaucasia (only half less than Central Asian Turkmens), this should be also mentioned.

[Yalquzaq]

There was an Iranian Azeri on ABF he kept saying that Azeris were Turkified North Iranians, and posted some plots and graphs to show this, but maybe the Azeris in Iran are different than the ones in the republic. He felt more Iranian, than a Turk and often ridiculed pan-Turkism.

I don't know about him, but I'm pretty sure that it was a fake. Such things are pretty common over the internet, after all we are all anonymous, aren't we?

[Musso]

Yes, for example both took in the population of Caucasian Albanians.

That's true, a lot of Caucasian Albanian assimilated into Armenians, others into the Muslim populations in the area which in the long run turned into the modern day Azeris that we see.


True, there were tribes in the past and not a single unified nation, but it seems they still had factors and terms which united them. During Safavid era, there was the concept of Turkman vs Tajik, Turkman referring to Azerbaijani Turks (Qizilbash tribes), Tajik referring to Persians and rest of Iranian populations.

In addition, we also have what one calls "Mongoloid" admixture unlike other peoples of Transcaucasia (only half less than Central Asian Turkmens), this should be also mentioned.

Regarding this, how does Azeris' Turkic component compare with that of Anatolian Turks?

[Yalquzaq]

They are about the same, but what do we mean by "Turkic component"? Turkic component does not equal "Mongoloid" only. After all, both Turks of Anatolia and Azerbaijan are Oghuz Turks.

[Musso]

They are about the same, but what do we mean by "Turkic component"? Turkic component does not equal "Mongoloid" only. After all, both Turks of Anatolia and Azerbaijan are Oghuz Turks.

Well by Turkic component I mean the Altaic speaking ancestors that came to the region. I believe that migration occurred from modern day Turkmenistan if I am not mistaken.

[Yalquzaq]

If we are talking about participation of Oghuz tribes in modern-day ethnic make-up of Turks of Anatolia and Azerbaijan, then they have made the biggest contribution without any doubt. First with the establishment of Seljuq Empire, then the Mongol invasions of Central Asia drove most of Oghuz tribes to Azerbaijan and Anatolia.

[Yalquzaq]

There was an Iranian Azeri on ABF he kept saying that Azeris were Turkified North Iranians, and posted some plots and graphs to show this, but maybe the Azeris in Iran are different than the ones in the republic. He felt more Iranian, than a Turk and often ridiculed pan-Turkism.

Also, if I may ask, do you base your opinion on what some anonymous person says on a internet forum? It sounds like it.

Saying that Azerbaijani Turks are not Turks would be same as saying Adyghes are not Adgyhe, or Armenians are not Armenians. See my post where I explain the "Azeri" designation (BTW it still does not exist in Azerbaijan, the actual designation is "Azerbaijani). So there is no way that Azerbaijani Turk would not consider himself/herself Turk, not in just broader "Turkic" sense, but the plain "Turk". Being an Azerbaijani is same as being a Turk.

Moreover, even in Iran, although "Azeri" became the official state designation during Pahlavi regime, other Iranians, and including Turks of Southern Azerbaijan themselves, use the "Turk" designation (while the language is known as "Türki") when referring to Azerbaijani Turks.

Here is Khamenei: Fars da Türk kimin, Türk də Fars kimin, bir-biriynən qardaşdı. Even he does not use anything like "Azeri".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59JM4uDZGiE

And to give a further example from Republic of Azerbaijan, the blue color on Azerbaijan's flag represents the Turkic heritage.

Azerbaijani Turks of Iran originates from different Oghuz-Turkoman tribes, the last two ruling dynasty of Iran was from those tribal groups, Afshars and Qajars, both Azerbaijani Turks. Afshar is a very old Oghuz tribe, claiming direct descend from Oghuz Khan. Who could call that "Turkified"? Not to mention that Azerbaijani Turks were traditionally nomadic in traditions of Central Asia, we have such nomadic groups (Shahseven) that exists to this day, with their Central Asian type yurts.

[Yalquzaq]

BTW, here is a list of Turkoman Qizilbash tribes mentioned Oruj Bey Bayat:

1: Ustaclu
2: Şamlu
3: Əfşar
4: Türkman
5: Bayat
6: Təkəli
7: Xarmandalı
8: Zülqədər
9: Qacar
10: Qaramanlı
11: Bayburtlu
12: İspirli
13: Oryad
14: Çavuşlu
15: Asayişoğlu
16: Çəmiş Kəzəkli
17: Sarızolaqlı
18: Qarabacaqlı
19: Baharlı
20: Qırxlı or Qoruqlu
21: Bozcalı
22: Mahi Fəqihli
23: Həmzəli
24: Zolaqlı
25: Mahmudlu
26: Qara Çomaqlı
27: Qara Qoyunlu
28: Gözü Bayızlı
29: İnanlı
30: Kuh Gileyelu

The presence of Oghuz-Turkoman tribes in Azerbaijan during the Qara-Qoyunlu and Aq-Qoyunlu also exists in historical sources, and is a different topic than Qizilbash tribes. But in any case, Azerbaijani Turks descend from these tribes.

[Yalquzaq]

Jahan-Shah Qara-Qoyunlu.

http://i46.tinypic.com/1zewgag.png

Aq-Qoyunlu Sultan Yaqub also wrote poetry in his native language just like Jahan-Shah of Qara-Qoyunlu, which happens to be Azerbaijani Turkish. So in short, both Qara-Qoyunlu and Aq-Qoyunlu were Azerbaijani.

Fuzuli, a well known Azerbaijani poet, belonged to Bayat tribe of Oghuz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuz%C3%BBl%C3%AE

And even from Anatolia, the ruler of Eretna, Qadi Burhaneddin. He also wrote poetry, and the language of those poems are Azerbaijani Turkish. He belonged to the Salur tribe of Oghuz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadi_Burhan_al-Din

Just few examples.

[Musso]

This is all very interesting Yalquzaq, but I think we should get back on topic, unless we want to change the topic to meta'ethnicty of Azeris ;)

[Maleficent]

Anatolian, definitely.

[Yalquzaq]

This is all very interesting Yalquzaq, but I think we should get back on topic, unless we want to change the topic to meta'ethnicty of Azeris ;)

Yeah sorry, enough with off-topic, I just wanted to explain a bit further.

[Pecheneg]

Well by Turkic component I mean the Altaic speaking ancestors that came to the region. I believe that migration occurred from modern day Turkmenistan if I am not mistaken.

Here you go, comparison of east eurasian (mongoloid) components of Turkey Turks, Azerbaijan Turks and Turkmenistan Turkmens;

http://i48.tinypic.com/29dip8n.jpg


AZERBAIJAN TURKS
Azeri_D = 7-8% mongoloid



TURKS OF TURKEY
Turkish_Aydın = ~12% mongoloid
Turkish_Kayseri = 7-8% mongoloid
Turkish_Istanbul = 7-8% mongoloid



TURKMENISTAN TURKMENS
Turkmens_Y = ~18% mongoloid





Both Turks of Turkey and Azerbaijan genetically fall somewhere between Central Asian Turkmens and West Asians.
http://i48.tinypic.com/14mx6vt.jpg

[Pecheneg]

Anatolian, definitely.

Armenians are/were not "Anatolians".


The traditional definition of Anatolia
http://i48.tinypic.com/33onoqr.jpg


Ancient Regions of Anatolia
http://i47.tinypic.com/294jgo6.png






Historical Armenia - somewhere in between "mesopotamia" and "transcaucasia"
http://i45.tinypic.com/dlm2y8.jpg







And additionally, ancient Indo-European "Anatolian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages)" (like Hittite, Pisidian, Lycian etc) were completely different from Armenian. So "Anatolian" is not proper term for Armenians' meta-ethnicity.

[ButlerKing]

Here you go, comparison of east eurasian (mongoloid) components of Turkey Turks, Azerbaijan Turks and Turkmenistan Turkmens;

http://i48.tinypic.com/29dip8n.jpg


AZERBAIJAN TURKS
Azeri_D = 7-8% mongoloid



TURKS OF TURKEY
Turkish_Aydın = ~12% mongoloid
Turkish_Kayseri = 7-8% mongoloid
Turkish_Istanbul = 7-8% mongoloid



TURKMENISTAN TURKMENS
Turkmens_Y = 18-19% mongoloid





Both Turks of Turkey and Azerbaijan genetically fall somewhere between Central Asian Turkmens and West Asians.
http://i48.tinypic.com/14mx6vt.jpg


By the way I'm not denying this study is correct, obviously is correct the problem is this 18-19% figure of Turkmen came from only one city. Can one city really represent?

What about Turkmen from Merv which is on average 32% Mongoloid?

http://i46.tinypic.com/2nsqvbt.png

[Pecheneg]

By the way I'm not denying this study is correct, obviously is correct the problem is this 18-19% figure of Turkmen came from only one city. Can one city really represent?

Turkmens -as a whole- score 15-20% mongoloid on average (At least this is what most genetic studies say). Of course there are some Turkmens who score higher east eurasian than "average" and some who score lower.

[ButlerKing]

Turkmens -as a whole- score 15-20% mongoloid on average (At least this is what most genetic studies say). Of course there are some Turkmens who score higher east eurasian than "average" and some who score lower.

To be honest this so called " average " is so misleading. For example even the Turkish_Istanbul with 7-8% mongoloid is based on 2 samples out 15.

How Mongoloid were the Seljuks who invaded? do you think they were from a area which
scored 15-20% Mongoloid or from other areas which scored 30-40% Mongoloid?

[Hoca]

Armenians are/were not "Anatolians".


The traditional definition of Anatolia
http://i48.tinypic.com/33onoqr.jpg


Ancient Regions of Anatolia
http://i47.tinypic.com/294jgo6.png






Historical Armenia - somewhere in between "mesopotamia" and "transcaucasia"
http://i45.tinypic.com/dlm2y8.jpg







And additionally, ancient Indo-European "Anatolian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages)" (like Hittite, Pisidian, Lycian etc) were completely different from Armenian. So "Anatolian" is not proper term for Armenians' meta-ethnicity.
This is what I think too. Armenians try to write off Anatolia as "historical Armenian land". Nothing could be more than the truth.

[Yalquzaq]

How Mongoloid were the Seljuks who invaded? do you think they were from a area which
scored 15-20% Mongoloid or from other areas which scored 30-40% Mongoloid?

Seljuqs were a dynastic family, not a tribe/nation, the Seljuq dynasty itself belonged to the "Qınıq" tribe. And actually the greatest influx of Oghuz tribes to Anatolia and Azerbaijan took place during Mongol invasions of Central Asia (most of Oghuz tribes left Central Asia as the result), although there was a large amount of Oghuz tribes which settled during Seljuqs aswell, however like said the greatest and biggest influx was during the periods of Mongol invasions. Actually, it is doubtful how much connection Oghuz tribes had with present-day Central Asian Turkmens, because Mongols completly changed the demographics of Central Asia.

[ALL]

Armenians are/were not "Anatolians"...

The Hittite kingdom
"encompassed by the bend of the Halys River (Hittite Marassantiya, Turkish: Kızılırmak) was considered the core of the Empire,"
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Hittite_Empire.png

"Western European R1b is dominated by specific sub-clades of R-M269 "
In Southeast Europe and Southwest Asia (e.g. the Balkans, Georgia and Turkey) "haplotype 35" or "ht35" was found to be a common form of R-M269, whereas in western Europe "haplotype 15" or "ht15" dominated in frequency.[3]

summary of most of the studies which specifically tested for R-M269
Turkey Central N-152 19.1% Cinnioğlu et al. (2004)[3]

Armenian Y-DNA (Paternal) Haplogroups (Updated on 28 january 2012)
R1b1a2a represents the largest haplogroup for Armenians in general and project members in particular. It has been estimated to be 8,000 years old. According to Vince Vizachero who runs the haplogroup R-ht35 Project...The studies on which the map makers drew sampled broadly in the region including Turks, Kurds, Georgians and Azeris. If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1a2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news

[legolasbozo]

The Hittite kingdom
"encompassed by the bend of the Halys River (Hittite Marassantiya, Turkish: Kızılırmak) was considered the core of the Empire,"
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Hittite_Empire.png

"Western European R1b is dominated by specific sub-clades of R-M269 "
In Southeast Europe and Southwest Asia (e.g. the Balkans, Georgia and Turkey) "haplotype 35" or "ht35" was found to be a common form of R-M269, whereas in western Europe "haplotype 15" or "ht15" dominated in frequency.[3]

summary of most of the studies which specifically tested for R-M269
Turkey Central N-152 19.1% Cinnioğlu et al. (2004)[3]

Armenian Y-DNA (Paternal) Haplogroups (Updated on 28 january 2012)
R1b1a2a represents the largest haplogroup for Armenians in general and project members in particular. It has been estimated to be 8,000 years old. According to Vince Vizachero who runs the haplogroup R-ht35 Project...The studies on which the map makers drew sampled broadly in the region including Turks, Kurds, Georgians and Azeris. If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1a2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news

this is the funniest map i ever seen. İ'm from central anatolia and even my province known as paphlagonia (i'm talking about official term) even my city ex-name is loanword of greek, before Turks, you can related greeks with anatolia but armenians are not. Everybody know that anatolia is east of ankara. What if that map would be true, why there isn't any thrace about armenians in anatolia?

[ALL]

this is the funniest map i ever seen. İ'm from central anatolia and even my province known as paphlagonia (i'm talking about official term) even my city ex-name is loanword of greek, before Turks, you can related greeks with anatolia but armenians are not. Everybody know that anatolia is east of ankara. What if that map would be true, why there isn't any thrace about armenians in anatolia?
Turkey Central N-152 19.1% Cinnioğlu et al. (2004)[3]
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=news
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Greece/default.aspx?section=yresults

Turkey can test the men from this/your region. Turkey should not be afraid to test and release results; maybe they will match Greek and Armenian project?

[legolasbozo]

Turkey Central N-152 19.1% Cinnioğlu et al. (2004)[3]
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=news
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Greece/default.aspx?section=yresults

Turkey can test the men from this/your region. Turkey should not be afraid to test and release results; maybe they will match Greek and Armenian project?


i may have greek or armenian anceststry, nothing wrong with that. You don't have to have connection with central asian to feel Turk. What i'm saying is, there weren't any armenian settlement in central anatolia throughout to eagen sea , but greeks.

[Musso]

Armenians are/were not "Anatolians".


The traditional definition of Anatolia
http://i48.tinypic.com/33onoqr.jpg



Ancient Regions of Anatolia
http://i47.tinypic.com/294jgo6.png






Historical Armenia - somewhere in between "mesopotamia" and "transcaucasia"
http://i45.tinypic.com/dlm2y8.jpg







And additionally, ancient Indo-European "Anatolian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages)" (like Hittite, Pisidian, Lycian etc) were completely different from Armenian. So "Anatolian" is not proper term for Armenians' meta-ethnicity.


This is what I think too. Armenians try to write off Anatolia as "historical Armenian land". Nothing could be more than the truth.

The thing is we always used the term Armenian Highland to denote our historic lands, not 'Anatolia'. In historic maps going to Roman Empire, the area encompassing these lands is always labelled 'Armenia' rather than Anatolia, so defined 'Armenian Highland' is more accurate term.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Armenian_Highlands.jpg/250px-Armenian_Highlands.jpg


The Armenian Highland (for names in other languages see below; also known as the Armenian Upland, Armenian plateau, Armenian tableland,[1] or simply Armenia[2]) is the central-most and highest of three land-locked plateaus that together form the northern sector of the Middle East.[2] To its west is the Anatolian plateau which rises slowly from the lowland coast of the Aegean Sea and rises to an average height of 3,000 feet (910 m).[2]


These attempts included the name change of the geographical expression of "Armenia" or "Armenian plateau" to "Eastern Anatolia."[5] However, as can be seen in Turkish sources, the names Armenian plateau (Ermenistan Platosu) or Armenian Highland (Ermenistan Yaylası) are used to define the plateau.[citation needed] The term "Eastern Anatolia Region" is designated for the region and is mainly used for statistical purposes, while geographic expression Armenian plateau is continued to be used in contemporary Turkish sources.


Most of the Armenian Highland is in Turkey's Eastern Anatolia Region, and also includes northwestern Iran, all of Armenia, and western Azerbaijan.[6] Its eastern parts are also known as Lesser Caucasus, which is a birthplace of Armenian people.

Lesser Caucasus basically encompasses the area around Mount Ararat, which in modern day is situated at the border of Armenia and Turkey. Important to note that this area of the Lesser Caucasus is the heartland of the Armenian nation. For this reason, Mount Ararat is basically the symbol of the Armenian nation and you see it everywhere.

[Comte Arnau]

Graeco-Aryan? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan))

[wvwvw]

Graeco-Aryan? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan))

More like Persian.

[Musso]

Graeco-Aryan? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan))

So I guess Greeks, Armenians, and Iranians would fit under this? I don't know if it would be accepted as a meta-ethnicity. I think unless we want to be very general, the meta-ethnicity of Armenians is just Armenian or 'Armenic' if such a term exists.

[riverman]

So I guess Greeks, Armenians, and Iranians would fit under this? I don't know if it would be accepted as a meta-ethnicity. I think unless we want to be very general, the meta-ethnicity of Armenians is just Armenian or 'Armenic' if such a term exists.

The European meta-ethnicities are really general

[Arkadi Agapetos]

Anatolian-Caucasus

[LightHouse89]

I've been a bit confused on this term. I vaguely understand the notion of 'meta-ethnicity' for example 'Celto-Germanic' and so forth, but what meta-ethnicity would, let's say Armenians fall under? Caucasoid? Indo-European? just Armenian?

They are their own group [Armenians]. Celto-Germanic doesn't really mean much other than your descended from two cultures or countries I guess. Me I am Irish and Scotch Irish [which are really just Scottish Viking/Saxons]. So I am celtic-germanic.

[wvwvw]

Phrygian

[Hadouken]

Phryg-ian

I c what u did there

[Guest24]

Their own thing but closest to caucasus peoples

[Tauromachos]

Caucasus West Asian

[Mingle]

Armenian is their meta-ethnicity. Its both an ethnicity and meta-ethnicity in their case.

[StonyArabia]

Anatolians

[Mingle]

Anatolians

Eastern Turkey is not Anatolia. Eastern Turkey was historically called the Armenian Highlands.

Map of Anatolia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg

[oszkar07]

I found this , not sure how accurate it is but interesting ...


"The geneticists' team, led by Marc Haber and Chris Tyler-Smith of the Sanger Institute, near Cambridge in England, see long-isolated populations like that of the Armenians as a means of reconstructing population history.

Armenians share 29 percent of their DNA ancestry with Otzi, a man whose 5,300-year-old mummy emerged in 1991 from a melting Alpine glacier. Other genetically isolated populations of the Near East, like Cypriots, Sephardic Jews and Lebanese Christians, also share a lot of ancestry with the Iceman, whereas other Near Easterners, like Turks, Syrians and Palestinians, share less. This indicates that the Armenians and other isolated populations are closer than present-day inhabitants of the Near East to the Neolithic farmers who brought agriculture to Europe about 8,000 years ago.

The geneticists' paper [1] was posted last month on bioRxiv[2], a digital library for publishing scientific articles before they appear in journals. Dr. Tyler-Smith, the senior author of the genetics team, said he could not discuss their results for fear of jeopardizing publication in a journal that he did not name."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/11/science/study-backs-5th-century-historians-date-for-founding-of-armenia.html

http://www.armeniapedia.org/wiki/Origin_Of_Armenians

[StonyArabia]

Eastern Turkey is not Anatolia. Eastern Turkey was historically called the Armenian Highlands.

Map of Anatolia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg

Yes, Armenians are the best proxy however for pre-Turkic Anatolia

[Papastratosels26]

I think anatolians-caucasians.

[Mingle]

Yes, Armenians are the best proxy however for pre-Turkic Anatolia

"Meta-ethnicity" is not some purely genetic term. They're not Anatolian so calling them that is assigning them the wrong identity.

[klarji]

They are Indo-Europeans, who stand between Greeks and Indo-Aryans with Hurrito-Urartian and Kartvelian substratum.

[FinalFlash]

They are Indo-Europeans, who stand between Greeks and Indo-Aryans with Hurrito-Urartian and Kartvelian substratum.

We are just, Armenians. 'Urartu' is simply the Assyrian toponym for 'Ararat'. When you say "Urartian", you're essentially saying 'Araratian'

[klarji]

We are just, Armenians. 'Urartu' is simply the Assyrian toponym for 'Ararat'. When you say "Urartian", you're essentially saying 'Araratian'


there was an ancient language that is called by modern scientiscts as "Urartian". close related to Hurrian language.

[FinalFlash]

there was an ancient language that is called by modern scientiscts as "Urartian". close related to Hurrian language.

Really? I've never heard of this Araratian language. If that so-called language was simply a dialect of the Armenian language then that would be believable. Otherwise, without proof, it seems like a bunch of hocus pocus and falls perfectly in line with the 'anything-but-Armenian' paradigm that's being pushed in mainstream academia.

[klarji]

Really? I've never heard of this Araratian language. If that so-called language was simply a dialect of the Armenian language then that would be believable. Otherwise, without proof, it seems like a bunch of hocus pocus and falls perfectly in line with the 'anything-but-Armenian' paradigm that's being pushed in mainstream academia.

fairy-tales of Armenian nazis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartian_language

[FinalFlash]

fairy-tales of Armenian nazis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartian_language

Ties with Northeastern Caucasian languages. What's next, they'll claim that Chechens and Dags are native to the Armenian Highlands? Come on man, get me some real sources. It's easy to fabricate history so I wouldn't be surprised if some years down the line they'll claim that we descended from Jupiter.

[Tauromachos]

West Asian Indoeuropean

[klarji]

Ties with Northeastern Caucasian languages. What's next, they'll claim that Chechens and Dags are native to the Armenian Highlands? Come on man, get me some real sources. It's easy to fabricate history so I wouldn't be surprised if some years down the line they'll claim that we descended from Jupiter.

Armenians are Indo-Europeans who migrated from Balkans to the West Anatolia and then to the East.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D 0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%8F%D0 %B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B8