Are Adygei white and European enough?

[ButlerKing]

Their European admixture is signficantly high and not to be underestimated. It's no wonder they easily pass for any Southern European and in some cases East Europeans.


http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/756/adygei10.png


Of the 17 samples

1 sample: 47% European + 42% West Asian + 8% East/North Asian
1 sample: 41% European + 52% West Asian + 7% East/North Asian
1 sample: 33% European + 55% West Asian + 6% East/North Asian
1 sample: 32% European + 62% West Asian + 7% East/North Asian
1 sample: 30% European + 64% West Asian + 5% East/North Asian
1 sample: 30% European + 65% West Asian + 3% East/North Asian
5 sample: 29% European + 66% West Asian + 3% East/North Asian
6 sample: 27% European + 68% West Asian + 3% East/North Asian
1 sample: 25% European + 66% West Asian + 8% East/North Asian

European admixture (both North and South)
11.76% of Adygei have 40-47% European admixture
23.52% of Adygei have 30-33% European admixture
29.41% of Adygei have 29% European admixture
41.12% of Agygei have 27% European admixture
5.88% of Adygei have 25% European admixture

North European admixture
11.76% of Adygei are 30-37% North European

[ButlerKing]

Here are some pictures, they look European and White to me.

http://s8.postimage.org/3oaod6285/php_O9_BWnk.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/2194384.jpg
http://www.circassianworld.com/new/images/stories/Articles/Circassian_Girl_Israel.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Yes the Adyghe are White, but it also depends on what you mean by European, geographically yes, culturally certainly no, since the Adyghe for the most part were never tied to European Christendom in way or form. However they are certainly White, however anyone disregarding this, is due to cultural elements, since Sicilians and especially the Cypriots are less European than Adyghei. As well many Adyghei children are blond or with red hair. For example my father was originally a redhead, especially in his baby pictures.

[ButlerKing]

Yes the Adyghe are White, but it also depends on what you mean by European, geographically yes, culturally certainly no, since the Adyghe for the most part were never tied to European Christendom in way or form. However they are certainly White, however anyone disregarding this, is due to cultural elements, since Sicilians and especially the Cypriots are less European than Adyghei. As well many Adyghei children are blond or with red hair. For example my father was originally a redhead, especially in his baby pictures.

Indeed your people also have a fair share of blue eyes. If their not white than I'm a monkey.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2w5tto3.jpg

[gori]

they are kavkasian, west asian not white europian no matter their skin color

[ButlerKing]

they are kavkasian, west asian not white europian no matter their skin color

Oh...... is that so?

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/profile01/150/09f751c200e641d89d72b2d5b33c6b70/p.jpg
http://www.justicefornorthcaucasus.com/innovaeditor/assets/circassians-demand-rights-2011-04-18_l.jpg

[gori]

Oh...... is that so?

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/profile01/150/09f751c200e641d89d72b2d5b33c6b70/p.jpg
http://www.justicefornorthcaucasus.com/innovaeditor/assets/circassians-demand-rights-2011-04-18_l.jpg

:picard1: you can be west Asian and look like that . they look what they are.

[ButlerKing]

:picard1: you can be west Asian and look like that . they look what they are.

Than why do almost pure West Asian look like Kurdish? btw they also have 10-23% Southwest Asian admixture and 3-8% South Asian admixture. Btw it would seem Kurds from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Turkey, Armenia can vary from genetics.

http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/800-7/photos/1318602736-demonstration-for-freedom-in-kurdistan_873067.jpg

While in contrast Adygei people look like this? ( they little bit of East Asian admixture and almost 0% South Asian and Southwest Asian admixture).

http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1200-1/photos/1337535914-circassian-activists-protest-genocide-and-exile-of-1864_1225361.jpg


Denying them of being white is going to be extremely hard. In Europe they will indistinguishable from most Europeans.

http://s12.postimage.org/qksk5yg8d/Circassiandance15.jpg
http://s9.postimage.org/mcmffx6xr/Circassian.jpg

[StonyArabia]

The Adyghe are white, and anyone saying otherwise is delusional lol.

[ButlerKing]

The Adygei people have mainly haplogroup J2a with some R1a, they also have 2.7% of C3 ( Mongolian DNA marker ) and 1.5% N1c which may explain their their little East Asian admixture

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3F6BqRJ6xl0/TnDt35U9quI/AAAAAAAAEHs/jbFjkOzRV5o/s1600/caucasus-ychrom.png

Very white indeed

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_690/133759897090MS6l.jpg
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/660328/104100989/stock-photo-istanbul-turkey-may-unidentified-circassian-activists-protest-genocide-and-exile-of-on-104100989.jpg

[ButlerKing]

http://centralasia.imb.org/images/CircassianPrayerGuideCover.jpg

[ButlerKing]

What a beautiful Adygei girl.

http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/341/f/a/circassian_girl_by_barbaricswan-d4if4nt.jpg

[Hoca]

Adygei are closest to Turks, not Europeans.

[Illancha]

Of course they are white, anyone denying this is colour blind. Either that or they do not want to associate 'whiteness' with non-European cultures due to personal prejudices.

All of the indigenious people of the North Caucasus are white: Adyghe, Chechens, Ingush, Avars, Dargins, Laks.

In fact pure Adygheans do not have Mongoloid admixture. It was introduced during the Timurid invasion of the North Caucasus and only in some regions.

[Illancha]

Adygei are closest to Turks, not Europeans.
They are neither. They are Caucasians and should be classified seperately from Europeans and Middle Easterners.

[MarkyMark]

Some look white, some don't. Its that simple.

[ButlerKing]

Adygei are closest to Turks, not Europeans.


No they are not closer to Turks at all, Adegei have much more European admixture. Although you are mostly West Asian and European you have other components that separates you from them.

Many Turkish people have 10 - 20% Mongoloid, and have higher southwest Asian and Arab admixture.

[Hoca]

They are neither. They are Caucasians and should be classified seperately from Europeans and Middle Easterners.

You want them to be separate group. But I'm talking in terms of genetics. Yes, they are closest to Turks, not Europeans. That is all what I'm saying.

[ButlerKing]

Of course they are white, anyone denying this is colour blind. Either that or they do not want to associate 'whiteness' with non-European cultures due to personal prejudices.

All of the indigenious people of the North Caucasus are white: Adyghe, Chechens, Ingush, Avars, Dargins, Laks.

In fact pure Adygheans do not have Mongoloid admixture. It was introduced during the Timurid invasion of the North Caucasus and only in some regions.


Are you sure it was from Timurid from Timurlane? maybe it was from the Mongols or the Nogais who migrated there?

[Arbërori]

They are definitely white & they seem to be attractive people aswell, so as for the most part of them not being tied too European Christendom in any way or form in my & a reasonable person's eyes shouldn't matter at all. Bosniaks & a prominent part of Albanians are also Muslim, something which although some cannot reasonably comprehend (you most probably know who I'm refering to :lol:), doesn't make us any less white than our other Christian neighbours.

[ButlerKing]

Some look white, some don't. Its that simple.


Show me a Adygei that doesn't look white?

[Qutuzistan]

First off, their pigmentation is light, sure. Are they white like europeans? No! Are they a transitional group? Yes. There are morphological differences that are spottable. And anyway their light-pigmentation is irrelevant to their complex cultural climate and identity. I've never seen any north-Caucasians outside of the race-boards, identify themselves as white, or using whiteness as a marker of their identity. This is a Anglo-saxon/European thing. It isn't a meaningful term when discussing them.

[Illancha]

Are you sure it was from Timurid from Timurlane? maybe it was from the Mongols or the Nogais who migrated there?
Yeah sorry it was the mongols, got them mixed up because I was thinking of the Timurid invasion of Chechnya/Eastern North Caucasus region.

They've also been invaded by the Khazars and Pechenegs, but the most significant was the Mongol invasion.

[Illancha]

First off, their pigmentation is light, sure. Are they white like europeans? No! Are they a transitional group? Yes. There morphological differences that are spottable. And anyway their light-pigmentation is irrelevant to their complex cultural climate and identity. I've never seen any north-caucasians outside of the race-boards, identify themselves as white, or using whiteness as a marker of their identity. This is a anglo-saxon/european thing.
Quite true, no North Caucasian would describe himself as being 'white' among his own people/region, but when it comes to dealing with outsiders then we have to resort to such labels at times.

[ButlerKing]

First off, their pigmentation is light, sure. Are they white like europeans? No! Are they a transitional group? Yes. There morphological differences that are spottable. And anyway their light-pigmentation is irrelevant to their complex cultural climate and identity. I've never seen any north-caucasians outside of the race-boards, identify themselves as white, or using whiteness as a marker of their identity. This is a anglo-saxon/european thing.


Their not white huh.... than how is one suppose to describe them?

http://pcdn.500px.net/8296026/1090ee94434d371672230e523db65109f237544f/3.jpg
http://s16.postimage.org/x3ccq5s2t/Circassian.jpg
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/640052997/IMG_7124_1_sep_-_Copy.jpg
http://www.doncroner.net/uploaded_images/TovBlog.07-767404.jpg
http://static0.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1200-7/photos/1337535903-circassian-activists-protest-genocide-and-exile-of-1864_1225087.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Show me a Adygei that doesn't look white?

Yep you should see my Adyghe family it's full of redheads, blonds and of course people with dark hair. In fact I have a redhead cousin. The Adygheis are White and anyone stating other wise is just prejudiced or does not want the Adyghei to be white due to some conflicts of various things. Adyghes are White and are seen as such. As well you can find some Adyghe cultural influences among Russians especially those who settled in the South.

[Cokolino]

http://s12.postimage.org/qksk5yg8d/Circassiandance15.jpg

She is beautiful :amour101:

[Illancha]

There is a reason why the term Caucasian exists despite it being baseless.

[MarkyMark]

Show me a Adygei that doesn't look white?

http://i49.tinypic.com/2194384.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_690/133759897090MS6l.jpg
http://www.justicefornorthcaucasus.com/innovaeditor/assets/circassians-demand-rights-2011-04-18_l.jpg

There's clear Semitic in these ones. Last time I checked there is a difference between Caucasian and white. Here in these parts white=Euro.

[Qutuzistan]

Their not white huh.... than how is one suppose to describe them?

http://pcdn.500px.net/8296026/1090ee94434d371672230e523db65109f237544f/3.jpg
http://s16.postimage.org/x3ccq5s2t/Circassian.jpg
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/640052997/IMG_7124_1_sep_-_Copy.jpg
http://www.doncroner.net/uploaded_images/TovBlog.07-767404.jpg
http://static0.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1200-7/photos/1337535903-circassian-activists-protest-genocide-and-exile-of-1864_1225087.jpg

I don't know, you could label for what they are. North-caucasians. You're imagining things, if you think they feel kinship with all light-skinned and light eyed caucausians, just because they share the same pigmentation.

[ButlerKing]

http://i49.tinypic.com/2194384.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_690/133759897090MS6l.jpg
http://www.justicefornorthcaucasus.com/innovaeditor/assets/circassians-demand-rights-2011-04-18_l.jpg

There's clear Semitic in these ones. Last time I checked there is a difference between Caucasian and white. Here in these parts white=Euro.

Maybe you can say Italians, Spanish, Greeks, and southern Europeans have semetic influence. Last time I checked genetic shows they have 25-40% West Asian admixture themselves.


West Asian admixture is not Arabs. Kurdish people have high west Asian admixture but they also have like 10-20% Southwest Asian admixture and like 5% South Asian admixture, I suspect this is what they made them darker than pure West Asian. Adyghei people have little to none.

[StonyArabia]

Adygheis don't have Semitic blood, if they did they would be much darker. Armenians are partly Semitic, but Adygheis are not. Some Adygheis have Anatolian features but Anatolians are not Semites. SouthWest Asian=Semitic and it peaks in Arabia, the more you have of it, the darker you are it's that simple actually.

[MarkyMark]

There's a difference between pigmentation and facial structure. Their facial structure is varying but their pigmentation is light. Some of these I could see the clear Semite in them, its just embarrassing that you guys are trying to pass all of them as white.


Adygheis don't have Semitic blood, if they did they would be much darker. Armenians are partly Semitic, but Adygheis are not. Some Adygheis have Anatolian features but Anatolians are not Semites.
Semite and anatolian are close enough to the point I was trying to make... lack of European.

[Szegedist]

What is the obsession of being White or European? What next, are Adygei Nordic??

Adygei are Adygei


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzAOZSnsLCU

[ButlerKing]

I don't know, you could label for what they are. North-caucasians. You're imagining things, if you think they feel kinship with all light-skinned and light eyed caucausians, just because they share the same pigmentation.

I don't care if they feel kinship or not, I'm just pointing out they look White and European.

http://www.shalomlife.com/img/14834/1299800506191566/400_300_1299800506191566.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/adigasilk/dann1.jpg

[ButlerKing]

There's a difference between pigmentation and facial structure. Their facial structure is varying but their pigmentation is light. Some of these I could see the clear Semite in them, its just embarrassing that you guys are trying to pass all of them as white.


Semite and anatolian are close enough to the point I was trying to make... lack of European.

I don't see what's so semite about them. I can show you Greeks, Italian, Spanish, Albanian, Portugese with features like that too if you want.

[gori]

Than why do almost pure West Asian look like Kurdish? ( they also have 10-20% Southwest Asian admixture )

http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/800-7/photos/1318602736-demonstration-for-freedom-in-kurdistan_873067.jpg

While in contrast Adygei people look like this?

http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1200-1/photos/1337535914-circassian-activists-protest-genocide-and-exile-of-1864_1225361.jpg


Denying them of being white is going to be extremely hard. In Europe they will indistinguishable from most Europeans

you by yourself pointed out that kurds have Southwest Asian admixture that makes them wogier . purest west asians are georgians and many of them have white enough skin to blind you, still they are non_white.

[Illancha]

What is the obsession of being White or European? What next, are Adygei Nordic??

Adygei are Adygei


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzAOZSnsLCU
Don't worry they are not concerned about being accepted into the 'ultra special exclusive group' of European 'whiteness'. They consider themselves Adygheans and North Caucasians and they are rightly proud of it.

[ButlerKing]

you by yourself pointed out that kurds have Southwest Asian admixture that makes them wogier . purest west asians are georgians and many of them have white enough skin to blind you, still they are non_white.

The difference between Caucasus and Kurds

Caucasus have 50-60% West Asian and 25-40% European.

Kurds 70-80% West Asian, 13-22% Southwest Asian, 3-8% South Asian ( Indian )

[Hoca]

90% of Circassians live in Turkey.

[Qutuzistan]

The difference between Caucasus and Kurds

Caucasus have 50-60% West Asian 30-40% European.

Kurds 70-80% West Asian, 13-22% South west Asian, 3-8% South Asian ( Indian )
Actually the autosmal break-down of kurds and iranians is:
40-43 causian (peaks in georgians), 25-30 gedrosian(south-central asian indo-iranian, peaks in kalash), 10-20% south-west asian(peaks in saudis), 3-8 north european(peaks in baltics), 3-9% mesolithic european(peaks in basques and sardinians) , 0-5% south-asian(peaks in indians), 0-3% Siberian(peaks in mongols and siberian tribes)

They're sort of like a transitional indo-iranian/west-asian group.

[ButlerKing]

Actually the break down of kurds and iranians is:
40-43 causian, 25-30 gedrosian(south-central asian indo-iranian), 10-20% south-west asian, 3-8 north european, 3-9% mesolithic european, 0-5% south-asian, 0-3% Siberian.


Kurds from what study? Iraq, Turkey, Iran?

[ButlerKing]

To be honest, it wouldn't be surprising if Kurds from the North are closer to South Caucasus people. I do think they are lighter skinned and have more hair and eye color than those from Iraq and Syria.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iWvaAZj0vMY/Tmi20FCjJQI/AAAAAAAACIE/z9lyRf4G2Hk/s1600/Kurds%2B30%2Bmillion%2Boppressed%2Bpeople.gif

[Qutuzistan]

Kurds from what study? Iraq, Turkey, Iran?

According to dodecads calculators. Besides kurds aren't good examples of west-Asians. They're good examples of west indo-iranians.
http://dodecad.blogspot.se/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

[ButlerKing]

Back to the topic anyway. Anyone who don't think their white are wacked in the eyes.


http://www.onlineoriginals.com/showfile.asp?itemID=229&filetype=picture
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/318771_154937591318463_1672907206_n.jpg

[Qutuzistan]

^ You don't seem to get it, that besides that being irrelevant, no one gives a shit. Neither europeans nor themselves.

[ButlerKing]

^ You don't seem to get it, that besides that being irrelevant, no one gives a shit. Neither europeans nor themselves.

Than why do you give a shit?

[Hoca]

Butlerking do you think you are a referee and can tell who is European and who is not? Nobody gives 2 shits. Neither is it important for Circassians.

[gori]

The difference between Caucasus and Kurds

Caucasus have 50-60% West Asian and 25-40% European.

Kurds 70-80% West Asian, 13-22% Southwest Asian, 3-8% South Asian ( Indian )

what a liar you are. georgians are 74 west asian kurds around 45.

[ButlerKing]

:) White as it gets


http://th01.deviantart.net/fs70/150/i/2010/335/b/a/eyes_like_the_circassian_sea_by_mstree-d3404c7.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Une_Circassienne.jpg

[ButlerKing]

what a lier you are. georgians are 74 west asian kurds around 45.

Hey watch it Kurd, don't call people a liar before you know he is a liar for sure.

Kurds around 45% West Asian? I suspect this is from a different result and different location.

LET'S NOT FORGET THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF KURDS

The ones that look like this

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4096/4853726882_6bde0b905c.jpg

and the ones that look like this, so don't be surprised which I believe inherited from Caucasus admixture.

http://thekurds.net/wp-content/uploads/images/KPwalkKids.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Iranian Kurdish

http://www.travel-images.com/pht/iran433.jpg

compared with Iraq Kurds

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/10/19/world/19kurds.600.jpg


Do you get my point? , perharps Qutuzistan got a different study or result from a different location Kurd.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

^ So your argument essentially is, for the 70-80% Caucasus figure, is the regional phenotypic diversity of Kurds? In spite of being well aware that this is not grounded in fact?

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Furthermore, the area(s) where a component peaks is not necessarily the place where it originated, nor are the bearers of that component the most perfect representatives of the earliest carriers of it. The original population could have looked very different. It doesn't matter if the Adygeans could pass as Europeans or not. Fact of the matter is, a substantial portion of their autosomal DNA is not of European origin.

[Wild North]

Well, I voted European and White.. But what does genetics say? Tecnically aren´t their homeland just north-west of the Caucasus mountains on the "European" side, so in that sense they are "European"..

And it is said that their folklore and mythology have similarities with Celtic and even Germanic.

Many of them now live in the Middle East, and they may now have become somewhat mixed.

[ButlerKing]

Furthermore, the area(s) where a component peaks is not necessarily the place where it originated, nor are the bearers of that component the most perfect representatives of the earliest carriers of it. The original population could have looked very different. It doesn't matter if the Adygeans could pass as Europeans or not. Fact of the matter is, a substantial portion of their autosomal DNA is not of European origin.

The same can be said for Southern European, a substantial portion of their autosomal DNA are not of European origin.

[ButlerKing]

^ So your argument essentially is, for the 70-80% Caucasus figure, is the regional phenotypic diversity of Kurds? In spite of being well aware that this is not grounded in fact?


Kurds obviously vary from different results. The result I saw for Kurd clearly was 70-80% West Asian with 13-22% Southwest Asian and 3-8% Indian, I don't know where the damn study is now but trust me I saw it.


In many results Adegei people have the same European components as Europeans with only little more West Asian admixture

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8954/F1.large.jpg

[Sarmatian]

To answer the question we have to define term 'white'.

If white = Nordic+Germanic+Slavic+Celtic+Romance+Hellenic then they are not as they do not belong to any of these cultural/linguistic groups.

If white is measured by skin/hair/eye color than they are definately white since they are lighter in pigmentation than most of Southern Euros. The only reason Russians call them black/dark is because Adyghe and other Caucasians have dark pigmented phenotypes that are non-existent in ethnic Russian population.

If we define white in genetic terms as measure of presence of European genes than they are most likely not white. We can speculate that the large percentage of North European admixture can be a result of intermixing with Russians. It was mutual process but since Russians have far more massive genetic pool any Circassian admixture will be dissolved and leave next to no trace while Russian admixture in Circassians will have large impact on their genetic pool due to comparably low population.

However all these speculations are pointless due to the fact that Adyghe and other Circassians have no affinity with White/European culture and simply do not think in such categories at all. The only part of Europe they have ever had interactions with is Russia. They have long history of both friendly and hostile relationships and the rest of Europe shouldn't give a flying sh*t about their whiteness as Adyghe themselves don't care about European affairs.

The only thing Adyghe have in common with Turks is Islam. And trust me they are far from being devoted followers of Mohammed. Any Turk that seek a common ground to develop any relationships with Circassians is a fool.

[Onur]

The only thing Adyghe have in common with Turks is Islam. And trust me they are far from being devoted followers of Mohammed. Any Turk that seek a common ground to develop any relationships with Circassians is a fool.
??!, wtf are you trying to say?

The relation of Turks with Circassians largely created by Moscow. Russians ethnically cleansed them from their homeland and Ottoman empire provided them safe place to seek refuge. Now, are you trying to criticize Turks just because we provided them shelter to live and we have good relations with them?

The common ground between Turks and Circassians has been created by Moscow.

[Hoca]

??!, wtf are you trying to say?

The relation of Turks with Circassians largely created by Moscow. Russians ethnically cleansed them from their homeland and Ottoman empire provided them safe place to seek refuge. Now, are you trying to criticize Turks just because we provided them shelter to live and we have good relations with them?

The common ground between Turks and Circassians has been created by Moscow.

He doesn't know what he is talking about. 90% of Circassians live in Turkey. You already told why. During independence war, the Circassians were the head of the spear fighting and throwing the Greeks in the Aegean. Ataturk admired them so much, he started to wear their cap:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Atat%C3%BCrk.jpg/250px-Atat%C3%BCrk.jpg
saying Circassians don't have anything to do with Turks, only a complete moron can say that. Circassians and Turks have special bond, because Circassian know how it is too loose your country. They made great sacrifices and are part of the Turkish nation. Now their country is Turkey.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

The same can be said for Southern European, a substantial portion of their autosomal DNA are not of European origin.

You'd be right, it isn't. But that's besides the point, Southern Europeans. Unlike Adygeans, are genetically closer to Northern Europeans than Adygeans are. Because of the Mesolithic European alleles both share.

[ButlerKing]

To answer the question we have to define term 'white'.

If white = Nordic+Germanic+Slavic+Celtic+Romance+Hellenic then they are not as they do not belong to any of these cultural/linguistic groups.

If white is measured by skin/hair/eye color than they are definately white since they are lighter in pigmentation than most of Southern Euros. The only reason Russians call them black/dark is because Adyghe and other Caucasians have dark pigmented phenotypes that are non-existent in ethnic Russian population.

If we define white in genetic terms as measure of presence of European genes than they are most likely not white. We can speculate that the large percentage of North European admixture can be a result of intermixing with Russians. It was mutual process but since Russians have far more massive genetic pool any Circassian admixture will be dissolved and leave next to no trace while Russian admixture in Circassians will have large impact on their genetic pool due to comparably low population.

However all these speculations are pointless due to the fact that Adyghe and other Circassians have no affinity with White/European culture and simply do not think in such categories at all. The only part of Europe they have ever had interactions with is Russia. They have long history of both friendly and hostile relationships and the rest of Europe shouldn't give a flying sh*t about their whiteness as Adyghe themselves don't care about European affairs.

The only thing Adyghe have in common with Turks is Islam. And trust me they are far from being devoted followers of Mohammed. Any Turk that seek a common ground to develop any relationships with Circassians is a fool.


Another result with Adygei with more similarity with Europeans especially South European.


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/06/ejhg2010179f2.jpg

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Kurds obviously vary from different results. The result I saw for Kurd clearly was 70-80% West Asian with 13-22% Southwest Asian and 3-8% Indian, I don't know where the damn study is now but trust me I saw it.


In many results Adegei people have the same European components as Europeans with only little more West Asian admixture

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8954/F1.large.jpg

If the 70-80% "West Asian" you're referring to is found at a lower K. Low resolution ADMIXTURE runs are not as detailed as ones run at higher Ks. LOL @ "a little more West Asian". Adygeans in Dodecad V3, which is run in 12 Ks is an astounding 62.9%. Their European admixture is around 20% for both West and East European. Southern Europeans score considerably less than that with very few exceptions.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Another result with Adygei with more similarity with Europeans especially South European.


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/06/ejhg2010179f2.jpg

How many Ks were used in this analysis. Also, how many SNPs did they genotype?

[ButlerKing]

How many Ks were used in this analysis. Also, how many SNPs did they genotype?

Don't know about that and why does it matter?

[ButlerKing]

Okay this chart has a high number of autosomal DNA studies, for every ethnic group there is 6 autosomal DNA charts. Please take a look at the genetics of Basque, Sardinians, French, Cypriots and compare with Adygei.

Sardanians and Cypriots have far less European admixture than Adyghei people. And French are only like 20% more European than Adygei people. As you can see they are far more European than you think when compared with South European.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_8jYWZQRI/AAAAAAAACcc/3quI0JWu2ls/s1600/admixture-caucasoid.jpg

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Don't know about that and why does it matter?

It matters, because runs at lower Ks don't produce fine-scale results. Also, the number of SNPs used can significantly effect the outcome of the results.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Okay this chart has a high number of autosomal DNA studies, for every ethnic group there is 6 autosomal DNA charts. Please take a look at the genetics of Basque, Sardinians, French, Cypriots and compare with Adygei.

Sardanians and Cypriots have far less European admixture than Adyghei people. And French are only like 20% more European than Adygei people. As you can see they are far more European than you think when compared with South European.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_8jYWZQRI/AAAAAAAACcc/3quI0JWu2ls/s1600/admixture-caucasoid.jpg

The components aren't labeled, so I can't determine whether or not they're more "European" than Southern Europeans. But even then STRUCTURE and ADMIXTURE don't capture all of the genetic diversity of each population. That's why you have to compare them with other tests, such as PCA and MDS Plots. On nearly all the PCA and MDS Plots I've seen, Adygeans along with all other Caucasian populations were quite a distance away from most European populations.

[ButlerKing]

Obviously if you look, very dark blue is European component and are most dominant in Europeans. Medium blue is Sardinian admixture, light blue and gray are both west Asian and Southwest Asian.

[ButlerKing]

He doesn't know what he is talking about. 90% of Circassians live in Turkey. You already told why. During independence war, the Circassians were the head of the spear fighting and throwing the Greeks in the Aegean. Ataturk admired them so much, he started to wear their cap:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Atat%C3%BCrk.jpg/250px-Atat%C3%BCrk.jpg
saying Circassians don't have anything to do with Turks, only a complete moron can say that. Circassians and Turks have special bond, because Circassian know how it is too loose your country. They made great sacrifices and are part of the Turkish nation. Now their country is Turkey.


But you do realize these people are not Turks?

Would do mean in your previous post before when you said they are closer Turks?

[Pecheneg]

The difference between Caucasus and Kurds

Caucasus have 50-60% West Asian and 25-40% European.

Kurds 70-80% West Asian, 13-22% Southwest Asian, 3-8% South Asian ( Indian )


Nonsense. Kurds have 53.8% West_Asian admixture.

"West_Asian" component peaks in Caucasus, hence it's also known as "Caucasus" component.




Some Caucaus Populations and "West_Asian" admixture
'K7b' spreadsheet

Abhkasians_Y = 61.3% West_Asian
Adygei = 52.5% West_Asian
Chechens_Y = 54.6% West_Asian
Lezgins = 56.7% West_Asian
North_Ossetians_Y = 53% West_Asian
Georgians = 62.2% West_Asian

[ButlerKing]

Nonsense. Kurds have 53.8% West_Asian admixture.

"West_Asian" component peaks in Caucasus, hence it's also known as "Caucasus" component.


Some Caucaus Populations and "West_Asian" admixture
'K7b' spreadsheet

Abhkasians_Y = 61.3% West_Asian
Adygei = 52.5% West_Asian
Chechens_Y = 54.6% West_Asian
Lezgins = 56.7% West_Asian
North_Ossetians_Y = 53% West_Asian
Georgians = 62.2% West_Asian



Is not nonsense and I suggest you read page 6 because Kurds autosomal DNA and physical appearance can vary from Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Iran.

[Hoca]

But you do realize these people are not Turks?

Would do mean in your previous post before when you said they are closer Turks?

I didn't say there are Turks. I said there a closest to Turks.

http://i46.tinypic.com/1z56mi8.jpg

I guess your thread failed to white wash them.

[Pecheneg]

Is not nonsense and I suggest you read page 6 because Kurds autosomal DNA and physical appearance can vary from Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Iran.

Kurds don't have 70-80% west_asian admixture, as i said in my previous post, "West_Asian" component peaks in Caucasus (especially in Abkhasians and Georgians), that's why it's sometimes called "Caucasus" component. This is what i'm trying to say.

[Hayalet]

The only thing Adyghe have in common with Turks is Islam. And trust me they are far from being devoted followers of Mohammed. Any Turk that seek a common ground to develop any relationships with Circassians is a fool.
Are you talking about the Adyghe in Russia only? Otherwise, this is a blunder.


During independence war, the Circassians were the head of the spear fighting and throwing the Greeks in the Aegean. Ataturk admired them so much, he started to wear their cap:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Atat%C3%BCrk.jpg/250px-Atat%C3%BCrk.jpg
Lol, that's just kalpak and people wore it before Ataturk:

http://www.ttk.org.tr/templates/resimler/Image/BasindaTTK/cemal_enver_pasa.jpg

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Obviously if you look, very dark blue is European component and are most dominant in Europeans. Medium blue is Sardinian admixture, light blue and gray are both west Asian and Southwest Asian.

I don't know about that, I'm going to need you to provide sources.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Is not nonsense and I suggest you read page 6 because Kurds autosomal DNA and physical appearance can vary from Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Iran.

Physical appearance is not determined solely by genes, environment plays a crucial role in how a population will look. Obviously, one of the reasons Adygeans are lighter is because of their in the Palaearctic ecozone. Unlike in Iraq, Syria, Iran and parts of Turkey where it can be much hotter.

[Hayalet]

Physical appearance is not determined solely by genes, environment plays a crucial role in how a population will look. Obviously, one of the reasons Adygeans are lighter is because of their in the Palaearctic ecozone. Unlike in Iraq, Syria, Iran and parts of Turkey where it can be much hotter.
This is the Palaearctic ecozone:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Ecozone_Palearctic.svg

[Loki]

I wonder where they get their large chunk of Northern European from.

[ButlerKing]

I didn't say there are Turks. I said there a closest to Turks.

http://i46.tinypic.com/1z56mi8.jpg

I guess your thread failed to white wash them.


Not exactly closer to Turk, are you suggesting British are much closer to Hungarians?

[ButlerKing]

Kurds don't have 70-80% west_asian admixture, as i said in my previous post, "West_Asian" component peaks in Caucasus (especially in Abkhasians and Georgians), that's why it's sometimes called "Caucasus" component. This is what i'm trying to say.

I'm guessing this high 70-80% West Asian component in Kurds came from the ones in Armenia or south Caucasus

http://web.onetel.com/~gkca/KurdistanMap.jpg

[Žołnir]

White is relative term. For me for example North Africans are white too.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

White is relative term. For me for example North Africans are white too.

If North Africans are White, are Native Americans Yellow?

[ZephyrousMandaru]

This is the Palaearctic ecozone:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Ecozone_Palearctic.svg

Well, they do in a geographic region that has a milder climate than the countries south of it.

[Hayalet]

Well, they do in a geographic region that has a milder climate than the countries south of it.
No, their climate is humid subtropical which is more commonly found in the latitudes to their south than to their north.

[Onur]

I wonder where they get their large chunk of Northern European from.
It`s probably a very old connection between the northern Europeans and them, not a recent one.

You know, some Turkic groups in Eurasia also have high amount of N.European components too. It must be an old connection.

[Sarmatian]

blablabla... Now their country is Turkey.

I dare you to visit Maykop and tell it to locals. You'll get boot on your face in a matter of seconds. I grew up with these people and it's not up to Turks to teach me about who Adyghe are and what is their country.



Are you talking about the Adyghe in Russia only? Otherwise, this is a blunder.

I'm talking about people which I knew as a good neighbors of my people since I remember myself.


Lol, that's just kalpak and people wore it before Ataturk:

http://www.ttk.org.tr/templates/resimler/Image/BasindaTTK/cemal_enver_pasa.jpg

Don't worry, he will find another excuse to insist on adoption of kalpak from Circassians as sign of admiration :rolleyes:

[Illancha]

saying Circassians don't have anything to do with Turks, only a complete moron can say that. Circassians and Turks have special bond, because Circassian know how it is too loose your country. They made great sacrifices and are part of the Turkish nation. Now their country is Turkey.
What special bond? You say that as if Turks also lost their country so they can empathise. And yes they have made great sacrifices, not to become part of the Turkish nation, but to preserve their own.

Do you understand that their assimilation was not voluntary? If it was up to them, not a single Circassian would choose to become a Turk or identify as such.

To be perfectly honest, no matter how much truth there is to your words, the way I see it you view your Circassian ancestry as a taint and you're trying to force it to fit your Pan-Turkic tendencies.

Oh and by the way, Circassians have much more in common with Cossacks than Turks.

[Hoca]

I dare you to visit Maykop and tell it to locals. You'll get boot on your face in a matter of seconds. I grew up with these people and it's not up to Turks to teach me about who Adyghe are and what is their country.Maykop
I dare you to visit Anatolia and ask the Circassians they are not Turks.

Why do you bring up Maykop? I was talking about the Circassians in Turkey. Majority of Circassian world population lives in Turkey. They are the core of Turkish nationalist.



Don't worry, he will find another excuse to insist on adoption of kalpak from Circassians as sign of admiration :rolleyes:

He didn't disprove anything and it is not an excuse. I told you the reason. That is why he start wearing Kalpak.


What special bond? You say that as if Turks also lost their country so they can empathise. And yes they have made great sacrifices, not to become part of the Turkish nation, but to preserve their own.

So? .. What? I don't get your point.



Do you understand that their assimilation was not voluntary? If it was up to them, not a single Circassian would choose to become a Turk or identify as such.
Who are you? You are a Chechen. Don't talk for Circassians. I told you before you are an outsider in this issue.

Turks didn't push Circassians to become Turkish, asshole. Turks accepted Circassians into Anatolia after Russians deported them. In time they loved Turks and took over their identity.



To be perfectly honest, no matter how much truth there is to your words, the way I see it you view your Circassian ancestry as a taint and you're trying to force it to fit your Pan-Turkic tendencies.
Oh and by the way, Circassians have much more in common with Cossacks than Turks.
Majority of Circassians live in Turkey, genetically they are very close to us. You think you have the right to lecture us but who do you think you are? You are not Circassian. Majority of Circassians live in Turkey, so I have the right to talk about this issue. Circassians in Turkey are pan-Turkist. I don't see what is wrong with that.

[Hayalet]

He didn't disprove anything. It is not an excuse. That is why he start wearing Kalpak.
No, it isn't. He was wearing kalpak as an Ottoman general in 1918, before the Greco-Turkish War even started:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk_%281918%29.jpg

With other officers in the Ottoman army in Palestine during the First World War, all of them wear kalpak:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Ataturk20.JPG

[Illancha]

Who are you? You are a Chechen. Don't talk for Circassians. I told you before you are an outsider in this issue.

Turks didn't push Circassians to become Turkish, asshole. Turks accepted Circassians into Anatolia after Russians deported them. In time they loved Turks and took over their identity.

Majority of Circassians live in Turkey, genetically they are very close to us. You think you have the right to lecture us but who do you think you are? You are not Circassian. Majority of Circassians live in Turkey, so I have the right to talk about this issue. Circassians in Turkey are pan-Turkist. I don't see what is wrong with that.
Calling me an outsider on the history of the Caucasus and its people is beyond ludicrous.

What does it say about you when I know more about Circassians than you ever will despite not being Circassian myself? I even speak your language which you have forgotten.

Feel free to speak about Turks, but you do not represent Circassians, not in the slightest.

[Illancha]

Turks didn't push Circassians to become Turkish, asshole. Turks accepted Circassians into Anatolia after Russians deported them. In time they loved Turks and took over their identity.
Have fun reading about Turkish hospitality to Circassians.
http://www.circassiannation.org/bagrat%20shinkuba%20-%20the%20last%20of%20the%20departed.pdf

I would link it to you in Circassian, but you wouldn't be able to read in your own language.

[Hoca]

Calling me an outsider on the history of the Caucasus and its people is beyond ludicrous.
Chechen have nothing to do with Circassians in any way. Caucasus history doesn't belong to you alone but also to the Circassians that live in Turkey. You are in outsider in the Circassian catastrophe and make up lies about Turks forcing Circassians to become Turks. This is completely not true.



What does it say about you when I know more about Circassians than you ever will despite not being Circassian myself? I even speak your language which you have forgotten. Feel free to speak about Turks, but you do not represent Circassians, not in the slightest.

I already told you that majority of Circassian population of the world live in Turkey. How can we not represent them? You are a confused Chechen thinking you are Circassian.

This is not the first time you lecture Turks on this issue. Turks did everything they could to help Circassians. Russia deported. We helped and you blame us and not the Russians? Circassians in Turkey would think very differntly

No matter what you say, Circassians are thankful to Turks until the end of the world. We provided them a home and now part of our nation.

[StonyArabia]

Oh and by the way, Circassians have much more in common with Cossacks than Turks.

By culture yes, by genetics not so much. Cossacks are mostly Ukrainian genetically with some Kavkazian affinities.

[Illancha]

By culture yes, by genetics not so much. Cossacks are mostly Ukrainian genetically with some Kavkazian affinities.
I was referring to culture.

[Illancha]

Chechen have nothing to do with Circassians in any way. Caucasus history doesn't belong to you alone but also to the Circassians that live in Turkey. You are in outsider in the Circassian catastrophe and make up lies about Turks forcing Circassians to become Turks. This is completely not true.
Chechens and Circassians have nothing in common except for culture, lifestyle, dance, music, clothing, phonetics, region and historical alliances. But fine Turks are still closer... at least according to you.


This is not the first time you lecture Turks on this issue. Turks did everything they could to help Circassians. Russia deported. We helped and you blame us and not the Russians? Circassians in Turkey would think very differntly

No matter what you say, Circassians are thankful to Turks until the end of the world. We provided them a home and now part of our nation.
I have never said they should be ungrateful. In fact quite the opposite they should be very grateful, but they should not forget about the injustices they were dealt by the Ottoman side. Stop accusing me of blaming Turks because I never did, what I am saying is that you were not exactly angels or knights in shining armour coming to save the day when it comes to this issue.

My stance on Russia is completely different. Their actions are unforgivable and this is to be taken for granted hence why I do not discuss it in topics relating to Turkey.

[legolasbozo]

Turks seem to believe they know everything.

Not all Turks, just hoca and onur i guees.

[Sarmatian]

Why do you bring up Maykop? I was talking about the Circassians in Turkey. Majority of Circassian world population lives in Turkey. They are the core of Turkish nationalist.

Which means they have been successfully assimilated and not so Circassians anymore but Turks. I'm talking about those who didn't run away and still live in their homeland keeping their culture, language and identity. It doesn't matter how many Circassians you have in Turkey the real Circassians still live in Russia.

[ButlerKing]

You guys are forgetting Hoca is part Circassian, maybe he wants Circassians to be Turk so he can feel like a 100% true Turk.

[riverman]

I voted European and white.

[Artek]

Undoubtedly white but only partly Europoid by their looks and genetics. Voted for white but not European.

[Vulcho]

I voted not sure. You have to define "white" and "european".

I've been to Maykop, and didn't see any exotic-looking people. I know only 17% of Maykop's population are Adyghs, but I must have run into some of them during my stay. At the time I didn't even know they were a separate people, I thought everyone was Russian.

[Hoca]

Which means they have been successfully assimilated and not so Circassians anymore but Turks. I'm talking about those who didn't run away and still live in their homeland keeping their culture, language and identity. It doesn't matter how many Circassians you have in Turkey the real Circassians still live in Russia.

Nobody can tell that one Circassian is less Circassian than another Circassian. From where are you? I bet another Chechen.

In my opinion Circassians in Turkey have more about this matter to say than a random person who did nothing for the Circassian cause. Circassians in Turkey are the core representatives of Circassians because there is where the majority of Circassians are.


You guys are forgetting Hoca is part Circassian, maybe he wants Circassians to be Turk so he can feel like a 100% true Turk.

I never said Circassians are Turks. I only said there were close to Turks genetically and I proved proof. Maybe you started this thread because you are obsessed with Circassians and wanted to white wash them? Well, you failed buddy.

[Sarmatian]

Nobody can tell that one Circassian is less Circassian than another Circassian. From where are you? I bet another Chechen.

In my opinion Circassians in Turkey have more about this matter to say than a random person who did nothing for the Circassian cause. Circassians in Turkey are the core representatives of Circassians because there is where the majority of Circassians are.

Those that live in Turkey are Turks of Circassian origin. If you can't speak/write in Adyghe or Kabardin languages and have next to zero understanding of their customs and lifestyle you have no right to call yourself a Circassian no matter how much you related to them by blood.

Circassian cause? What is that? I bet some propaganda thing made up by some Turkish nationalists to excuse their future claims on Northern Caucasus. But ask yourself a question: do you think Circassians, Dagestani, Nohcho and other locals will be happy to see you?

[Hoca]

Those that live in Turkey are Turks of Circassian origin. If you can't speak/write in Adyghe or Kabardin languages and have next to zero understanding of their customs and lifestyle you have no right to call yourself a Circassian no matter how much you related to them by blood.

Circassian cause? What is that? I bet some propaganda thing made up by some Turkish nationalists to excuse their future claims on Northern Caucasus. But ask yourself a question: do you think Circassians, Dagestani, Nohcho and other locals will be happy to see you?
First telll me where are you from???

Because if you are not Circassian, you cannot tell Circassians in Turkey, they are not Circassian. I dare you to come to Turkey and go around saying that.

In Turkey, people that are full Circassian, say I'm Circassian but Circassian identity is within the Turkish identity in Turkey. They don't need your approval to be Circassian. I'm sorry.

[Prince Carlo]

Adyghe have also some SWA input, alongside South Asian and Central Asian.

[Pallantides]

I wonder who are genetically closer to Scandinavians of Sicilians and Adygei...

Whoever is closest is obviously whiter:p

[Sarmatian]

First telll me where are you from???...

I'm a man who happened to grow up in a place with Adyghe aul across the Kuban river. This simple fact makes me more knowledgeable about real Circassians than you'll ever be.

[Prince Carlo]

I wonder who are genetically closer to Scandinavians of Sicilians and Adygei...

Whoever is closest is obviously whiter:p

Sicilians are closer to Scandos than Aygei. Behar Adygei samples includes some half Russians-half Adyghe individuals who get quite close to North Euros.

[ButlerKing]

Sicilians are closer to Scandos than Aygei. Behar Adygei samples includes some half Russians-half Adyghe individuals who get quite close to North Euros.


There is no half Russian samples that is stupid. besides if it was really half russian than their North European admixture would be 45-50% instead of 30-37%.

[ButlerKing]

Sardanians, Tuscans, Cypriots of Europe have less European admixture than Adygei people.


http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8954/F1.large.jpg

[Insuperable]

Sardanians, Tuscans, Cypriots of Europe have less European admixture than Adygei people.


http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8954/F1.large.jpg

How can Sardinians have less European admixture?

[ButlerKing]

How can Sardinians have less European admixture?

They may live in Southern Europe but are genetically very different from Europeans.

[Insuperable]

They may live in Southern Europe but are genetically very different from Europeans.

They are the purest early neolithic invaders who remained very isolated while other European are a mix of these neolithic invaders and Mesolithic hunter gatherers. Mediterranean component on genome calculators is the closest to North European and it is present in many nations and in large quantities. It is considered to be a European component.

Mediterranean component is the most distanced from Asian and African components on many calculators.

[ButlerKing]

They are the purest early neolithic invaders who remained very isolated while others are mainy a mix of these neolithic invaders and Mesolithic hunter gatherers. Mediterranean component on genome calculators is the closest to North European and it is present in many nations and in large quantities. It is considered to be a European component.

Mediterranean component is the most distanced from Asian and African components on many calculators.


Well I'm sorry they are the least Europeans after the Cypriots.

[Insuperable]

Well I'm sorry they are the least Europeans after the Cypriots.

If Sardinians are the least European than what about Irish? How European are they in that case since Irish can have like 40% of this Sardianian aka early neolithic influx?

[Prince Carlo]

Sardanians, Tuscans, Cypriots of Europe have less European admixture than Adygei people.


http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8954/F1.large.jpg

No they don't. Look at the spreadsheet again.

EDIT there isn't any Cypriot cluster there.

[Hayalet]

Careful with ButlerKing, he is known to tamper with genetic charts.

[askra]

How can Sardinians have less European admixture?

Because some forum members or amateur geneticists show arbitrarily what they want to demonstrate their own agenda.
in that scheme shown by the user butler king there is a component (coloured in yellow) that is focused on sardinians and logically the main amount of sardinian admixture is centered in sardinians, followed by southern europeans, while that red one is a northern east european component (it peaks in russia).
northern caucasians have higher northern european admixture than sardinians because the northern european component considered in that study is centered in north east europe, while the situation would change completely if the northern european component was, for example, focalised on north west europeans.

with those admixture analysis you can transform even a bushman from south africa in a 100% european, obmitting some componets, adding new ones,or calling them with other names.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

They are the purest early neolithic invaders who remained very isolated while other European are a mix of these neolithic invaders and Mesolithic hunter gatherers. Mediterranean component on genome calculators is the closest to North European and it is present in many nations and in large quantities. It is considered to be a European component.

Mediterranean component is the most distanced from Asian and African components on many calculators.

No, actually, West Asian is closest to North European. Mediterranean is closest to Southwest Asian. Both components are equally Neolithic-era components. It's present in large quantities in Europe, because of genetic drift and isolation. The only pre-Neolithic European components are Atlantic_Baltic, North European and a couple others. West Asian, Mediterranean and Southwest Asian are not among them.

[Insuperable]

No, actually, West Asian is closest to North European. Mediterranean is closest to Southwest Asian. Both components are equally Neolithic-era components. It's present in large quantities in Europe, because of genetic drift and isolation. The only pre-Neolithic European components are Atlantic_Baltic, North European and a couple others. West Asian, Mediterranean and Southwest Asian are not among them.

Yes. I said many times the opposite on this same forum. Do not know why this time I said something different.
SWA is not European. WA is dubious and Mediterranean is definitely European. It is on many calculators the most distanced from African and Asian components.

[P-Chan]

Sardanians, Tuscans, Cypriots of Europe have less European admixture than Adygei people.


http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8954/F1.large.jpg

This scheme is just shit. And if a person can't understand what it means should be a retarded. As Askra said, the person who made that senseless diagram for an unknown reason has chosen Russians as the most European people. So that red component, which clearly represents NE Europeans, peaks among Russians.

[ButlerKing]

This scheme is just shit. And if a person can't understand what it means should be a retarded. As Askra said, the person who made that senseless diagram for an unknown reason has chosen Russians as the most European people. So that red component, which clearly represents NE Europeans, peaks among Russians.

And so it does. Russians are indeed one of most North European people genetically as shown from many different results.

Let me just say, scandivanians are the most Europeans genetically people, this is followed by East Europeans, than followed by West Europeans, than Southern Europeans, than North Caucasus, than South Europeans like Sardanians, Cypriots, Tuscans, than south Caucasus

[P-Chan]

Let me just say, scandivanians are the most Europeans genetically people, this is followed by East Europeans, than followed by West Europeans, than Southern Europeans, than North Caucasus, than South Europeans like Sardanians, Cypriots, Tuscans, than south Caucasus

LOL

[ZephyrousMandaru]

And so it does. Russians are indeed one of most North European people genetically as shown from many different results.

Let me just say, scandivanians are the most Europeans genetically people, this is followed by East Europeans, than followed by West Europeans, than Southern Europeans, than North Caucasus, than South Europeans like Sardanians, Cypriots, Tuscans, than south Caucasus

You're stretching the term European to encompass people, who are obviously not genetically European. Cypriots and Caucasians would be more accurately labeled transitional populations, between Europeans and Middle Easterners. So, they're more like North Asians with respect to East Asians and Amerindians. Still, I hesitate to refer to Cypriots are genetically European, Cyprus isn't even near continental Europe. It's in the Eastern Mediterranean, and is closer to the Levant geographically.

[ButlerKing]

You're stretching the term European to encompass people, who are obviously not genetically European. Cypriots and Caucasians would be more accurately labeled transitional populations, between Europeans and Middle Easterners. So, they're more like North Asians with respect to East Asians and Amerindians. Still, I hesitate to refer to Cypriots are genetically European, Cyprus isn't even near continental Europe. It's in the Eastern Mediterranean, and is closer to the Levant geographically.

Nobody in Europe are genetically pure European anyway, they all have some West Asian admixture.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Nobody in Europe are genetically pure European anyway, they all have some West Asian admixture.

Yes, but they're genetically European enough to form their own distinct cluster groupings. Of which Caucasians and Cypriots aren't really part of.

[ButlerKing]

Yes, but they're genetically European enough to form their own distinct cluster groupings. Of which Caucasians and Cypriots aren't really part of.

I don't think so, greeks are nearly 40-45% West Asian, Russians are about 15%, North Caucasus are 60-65%. Sure that the Greeks are closer to the European cluster but still if you compare Greeks , Russian, North Caucasus than the genetic distance of Greeks are closer to North Caucasus than Russians.

[Prince Carlo]

Images speak more than thousands of words.

http://i.imgur.com/8sW8k.png

[Hoca]

Images speak more than thousands of words.

http://i.imgur.com/8sW8k.png

This map shows it more clear to whom they are the closests.
http://oi46.tinypic.com/1z56mi8.jpg

[Ibericus]

They are not part of the European genetic continuum.

[Ibericus]

Sardanians, Tuscans, Cypriots of Europe have less European admixture than Adygei people.


http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8954/F1.large.jpg
You don't get it. Red = Northern Euro, and Orange = Southern Euro (peaks in Sardinians) , so total Euro is the sum of both.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

I don't think so, greeks are nearly 40-45% West Asian, Russians are about 15%, North Caucasus are 60-65%. Sure that the Greeks are closer to the European cluster but still if you compare Greeks , Russian, North Caucasus than the genetic distance of Greeks are closer to North Caucasus than Russians.

You have to be kidding me. In some calculators, such as Dodecad V3, the population average doesn't even go beyond 30%. Do you even have the slightest idea, of what you're talking about? Apparently not, since you think Greeks are around 40-45% "West Asian". Most Levantines don't score that much.

[ButlerKing]

You have to be kidding me. In some calculators, such as Dodecad V3, the population average doesn't even go beyond 30%. Do you even have the slightest idea, of what you're talking about? Apparently not, since you think Greeks are around 40-45% "West Asian". Most Levantines don't score that much.

Apparently you don't know what slightest idea means, if I didn't had the slightest idea why the freaking heck you think I mention the Greeks have high West Asian admixture? I know exactly what I'm talking about. Southern Greeks have much higher west Asian admixture.

http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Anthropogenesis-DienekesWestAsia.jpg

[Prince Carlo]

This map shows it more clear to whom they are the closests.
http://oi46.tinypic.com/1z56mi8.jpg

That map comes from Genome Bloggers and is not reliable at all. Moreover Adyghe are always lumped with MENAs/Caucasians rather than Europeans.

[Hayalet]

That map comes from Genome Bloggers and is not reliable at all.
It's essentially the same thing as the map you posted.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Apparently you don't know what slightest idea means, if I didn't had the slightest idea why the freaking heck you think I mention the Greeks have high West Asian admixture? I know exactly what I'm talking about. Southern Greeks have much higher west Asian admixture.

http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Anthropogenesis-DienekesWestAsia.jpg

West_Asian for Greek_D is 24.8%. FAIL! Adygei have three times as much as the Greeks do. 52.5%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0

What's that about Greeks having "40-45%" West_Asian again?

[ButlerKing]

West_Asian for Greek_D is 24.8%. FAIL! Adygei have three times as much as the Greeks do. 52.5%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0

What's that about Greeks having "40-45%" West_Asian again?

Only one result and you act like you know it all. You should know that genetics can range from regions to regions. Southern Greeks are much more West Asian than Northern Greeks who also have significant west Asian admixture.

Go and take a look at the bottom part of this chart.


West Asian + South west Asian = 41% in Greeks

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Wk9_ST1CKC4/TbFOmpaIlGI/AAAAAAAADiQ/jhw64bHM1G4/s1600/ADMIXTURE_11.png

[askra]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6Hzs-1W_Qwg/TI3fLQVZWXI/AAAAAAAAABI/nBlQhl9BHtE/s1600/Li2008.png

[riverman]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6Hzs-1W_Qwg/TI3fLQVZWXI/AAAAAAAAABI/nBlQhl9BHtE/s1600/Li2008.png

Too bad this chart doesn't have more populations

[Hoca]

It's essentially the same thing as the map you posted.

Yea, I know, I don't know what their problem is. They also post blog sources in this thread. I still think this graph shows the reality to whom Adygei are closest to

http://oi46.tinypic.com/1z56mi8.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Yea, I know, I don't know what their problem is. They also post blog sources in this thread. I still think this graph shows the reality to whom Adygei are closest to

http://oi46.tinypic.com/1z56mi8.jpg

I don't know about that...... British closest to Hungarians......

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Only one result and you act like you know it all. You should know that genetics can range from regions to regions. Southern Greeks are much more West Asian than Northern Greeks who also have significant west Asian admixture.

Go and take a look at the bottom part of this chart.


West Asian + South west Asian = 41% in Greeks

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Wk9_ST1CKC4/TbFOmpaIlGI/AAAAAAAADiQ/jhw64bHM1G4/s1600/ADMIXTURE_11.png

Southwest Asian is not West Asian. These are two completely different components, so I don't understand why you're conflating them. But even then, it doesn't matter. The Adygei are still more West Asian, even when you account for Southwest Asian. So again, you've failed to demonstrate that the Adygei are more European than Greeks. Your claim that "Southern Greeks are more West Asian than Adygei" has yet to be proven.

[Prince Carlo]

It's essentially the same thing as the map you posted.

Then what about this map from a peer reviewed study?

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/Intra_West_Eurasian_original2.jpg


Southwest Asian is not West Asian. These are two completely different components, so I don't understand why you're conflating them. But even then, it doesn't matter. The Adygei are still more West Asian, even when you account for Southwest Asian. So again, you've failed to demonstrate that the Adygei are more European than Greeks. Your claim that "Southern Greeks are more West Asian than Adygei" has yet to be proven.

Totatl West Asian+South West Asian admix for the Greeks is 37% on Globe13. On the same run Adyghei score 57-58% total West Asian+South West Asian admix.

Also keep in mind that the Greek cluster includes many islanders and pontics.

[Hayalet]

Then what about this map from a peer reviewed study?

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/Intra_West_Eurasian_original2.jpg
Intra-West Eurasian and Intra-European are two different things.

[Prince Carlo]

^ Adyghei are genetically WEST ASIANS! The Intra-European plots fail to track their true ancestry.

[riverman]

Who voted not white lol many of them are obviously white

[ButlerKing]

Southwest Asian is not West Asian. These are two completely different components, so I don't understand why you're conflating them. But even then, it doesn't matter. The Adygei are still more West Asian, even when you account for Southwest Asian. So again, you've failed to demonstrate that the Adygei are more European than Greeks. Your claim that "Southern Greeks are more West Asian than Adygei" has yet to be proven.

Soutwest Asian is also a middle eastern component, just because Adygei almost doesn't have any doesn't mean you should ignore Greeks with that admixture. It's more related with West Asian than European component at the end of the day and are non-European. I never denied adygei are more west Asian, I'm saying if you compare the west Asian admixture ( or better said non-European admixture ) than Greeks are closer to Adygei than Russians.


you've failed to demonstrate that the Adygei are more European than Greeks.

That's a bull crap you made up yourself, try quoting in this page that I said Agygei were more European. I said the greeks are closer to Adygei than Russians in Non-European admixture and European admixture.

[ButlerKing]

Then what about this map from a peer reviewed study?

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/Intra_West_Eurasian_original2.jpg



Totatl West Asian+South West Asian admix for the Greeks is 37% on Globe13. On the same run Adyghei score 57-58% total West Asian+South West Asian admix.

Also keep in mind that the Greek cluster includes many islanders and pontics.


Greeks with West Asian + Southwest Asian = 37%
Adyghei with West Asian + Southwest Asian = 57-58%

Russians have only 13%, so in term of West Asian admixture greeks are little bit closer to Adygei people

[Insuperable]

And so it does. Russians are indeed one of most North European people genetically as shown from many different results.

Let me just say, scandivanians are the most Europeans genetically people, this is followed by East Europeans, than followed by West Europeans, than Southern Europeans, than North Caucasus, than South Europeans like Sardanians, Cypriots, Tuscans, than south Caucasus

Why you do not consider Med component European?

[Prince Carlo]

Greeks with West Asian + Southwest Asian = 37%
Adyghei with West Asian + Southwest Asian = 57-58%

Russians have only 13%, so in term of West Asian admixture greeks are little bit closer to Adygei people

So this means that Adyghei are European, doesn't it?

[ButlerKing]

So this means that Adyghei are European, doesn't it?

Technically speaking they are geographically in Europe and the have more European admixture than some European subgroups in Southern Europe. So yes they can be considered Europeans if others can as well.

[Prince Carlo]

Technically speaking they are geographically in Europe and the have more European admixture than some European subgroups in Southern Europe. So yes they can be considered Europeans if others can as well.

No they don't. Genetically they are more akin to MENA core groups than to Europeans. Last time I checked Adyghei were equidistant from Palestinians and Romanians. Between Adyghei and Romanians there is a huge void, whereas between Adyghei and Palestinians there are all the middle eastern people.

[ButlerKing]

No they don't. Genetically they are more akin to MENA core groups than to Europeans. Last time I checked Adyghei were equidistant from Palestinians and Romanians. Between Adyghei and Romanians there is a huge void, whereas between Adyghei and Palestinians there are all the middle eastern people.

And the last time I checked, they have always been between Europeans and West Asian with only being slightly closer to West Asian while Palestinians cluster directly with Middle east.

http://i47.tinypic.com/xnga2o.png

[Prince Carlo]

^ That plot includes half russians individuals who are pulling the Adyghei median closer to Europeans. In this map the Adyghei are equidistant from the Lebanese and the Romanians.

http://s1234.beta.photobucket.com/user/AramaicDNA/media/Intra_West_Eurasian_original2.jpg.html

[ButlerKing]

^ That plot includes half russians individuals who are pulling the Adyghei median closer to Europeans. In this map the Adyghei are equidistant from the Lebanese and the Romanians.

Okay, where is this proof that it included half Russian individuals, I can't find of these claims you made.

Prove it to me.

[Prince Carlo]

Look at those circles between East Euros and Caucasians.

[ButlerKing]

Look at those circles between East Euros and Caucasians.

I'm asking for proof where is the half Russian admixture, what does the circle have to do with it?

Is it so hard to believe that some Adygei people score higher European admixture than average?

[P-Chan]

In any case this scheme that the user Butler King chose to demostrate his senseless statements reveals that Tuscanians, Sardinians, Italians and all Southern Europeans are fully Europeans
http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8954/F1.large.jpg

Surely more than Adygeis.....the first diagram K=3 shows European admixtures in red, second one K=7 divides Europeans into North (red) and South (yellow). This is the reason why countries as France are in the middle.

---------

I' ve just read that already someone have explained what I have written in this post :)

[ButlerKing]

In any case this scheme that the user Butler King chose to demostrate his senseless statements reveals that Tuscanians, Sardinians, Italians and all Southern Europeans are fully Europeans
http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8954/F1.large.jpg

Surely more than Adygeis.....the first diagram K=3 shows European admixtures in red, second one K=7 divides Europeans into North (red) and South (yellow). This is the reason why countries as France are in the middle.

How is it senseless when the first diagram shows all of them with high red admixture, while in the second diagram clearly shows the Adegei have more red admixture (which peaks at Russian ) than Tuscanians, Sardinians, Italians. I believe the samples came from Southern Italians rather than Northern Italians, this is simple fact.

[archangel]

many tend to look whiter(pigmention wise) than south and southeast euros...dont know why

[Prince Carlo]

I'm asking for proof where is the half Russian admixture, what does the circle have to do with it?

Is it so hard to believe that some Adygei people score higher European admixture than average?

Ask genome bloggers like Polako why they have excluded those outliers from their runs.

[ButlerKing]

Ask genome bloggers like Polako why they have excluded those outliers from their runs.

That sounds helpful.........

[P-Chan]

How is it senseless when the first diagram shows all of them with high red admixture, while in the second diagram clearly shows the Adegei have more red admixture (which peaks at Russian ) than Tuscanians, Sardinians, Italians. I believe the samples came from Southern Italians rather than Northern Italians, this is simple fact.


Probably you can't read genetic diagrams. What the hell do you think is the yellow in the second diagram??? A martian admixture? An extra European admixture? LOL
It shows southern European admixture and it peaks among Sardinians.

While Adygea (which is a Russian republic) where live thousands and thousands russians obviously has an higher Northern European admixture, marked with red.


And regarding 1st diagram it shows with red the sum of southern and northern European admixtures....and as anyone can see Adygey people have the lowest European admixture.

[Prince Carlo]

How is it senseless when the first diagram shows all of them with high red admixture, while in the second diagram clearly shows the Adegei have more red admixture (which peaks at Russian ) than Tuscanians, Sardinians, Italians. I believe the samples came from Southern Italians rather than Northern Italians, this is simple fact.

Add to that a Caucasus component and the results would be a lot different.

[ButlerKing]

Probably you can't read genetic diagrams. What the hell do you think is the yellow in the second diagram??? A martian admixture? An extra European admixture? LOL
It shows southern European admixture and it peaks among Sardinians.

While Adygea (which is a Russian republic) where live thousands and thousands russians obviously has an higher Northern European admixture, marked with red.

So Sardanians are very Europeans??? wel than it just means that Adygei are north European and almost as much South European.

But this is what Sardanians looks like which looks much more West Asian to me.

http://www.fontesarda.it/imgsarde/scos3110.jpg
http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/416/cache/barbagia-elder-long-life_41632_600x450.jpg
http://mysardinia.com/content/sardinians3-630x419.jpg


While Adygea (which is a Russian republic) where live thousands and thousands russians obviously has an higher Northern European admixture, marked with red.

How stupid, picking Russian samples from Adygea republic when they already have their own samples section?

[P-Chan]

So Sardanians are very Europeans???




How stupid, picking Russian samples from Adygea republic when they already have their own samples section?


It's funny to see vintage photos of ugly and atypical sardinians showed on your funny post to demonstrate that people who live in the Caucasus are genetically Europeans.
You're simply ridiculous.

[ButlerKing]

It's funny to see cherry picked photos of ugly and atypical sardinians showed on your funny post to demonstrate that people who live in the Caucasus are genetically Europeans.
You're simply ridiculous.

Alright than, why don't you go ahead and show me your cherry picked pictures of Sardinians but do make sure their all in group photos not individuals.

[Hoca]

Probably you can't read genetic diagrams.

He either can't read diagrams, or he just thinks people will believe his trickery

[ButlerKing]

No this ain't cherry picking at all, this is reality.

http://notesfromgalilee.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/circassian-traditional-dress1.jpg
http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/kdPDpM-FkgY/mqdefault.jpg
http://img.scoop.it/T3VznfOd6d-jCJCq3WjH2zl72eJkfbmt4t8yenImKBVaiQDB_Rd1H6kmuBWtc eBJ
http://rudocs.exdat.com/pars_docs/tw_refs/207/206385/206385_html_2cebec3d.jpg
http://thinkbrigade.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Circassians-rally-at-London-2012.jpg
http://photo2.eng.kavkaz-uzel.ru/system/attachments/0000/1868/participants1_view.JPG
http://s14.postimage.org/athm8wvv5/Cherkess_917358.jpg

[P-Chan]

I'd like to know why do you pretend to be British/Irish...


Anyway:


65% people from Adigeya are ethnic Russians
2% people ethnic Ukranians

sources:
Russian Census

[ButlerKing]

I'd like to know why do you pretend to be British/Irish...

Lol what a loser, you lose and now you're changing the topic hahaha. I told you to show me your cherry picked sardanian pictures in group photos and you couldn't do it. So in retaliation you questioned my ethnicity...... hahaha.


I'm what I am, a unique beautiful human being who cares about peace and love, I'm British.

[P-Chan]

Lol what a loser, you lose and now you're changing the topic hahaha. I told you to show me your cherry picked sardanian pictures in group photos and you couldn't do it. So in retaliation you questioned my ethnicity...... hahaha.


I'm what I am, a unique beautiful human being who cares about peace and love, I'm British.


thousand group photos of Sardinians (not Sardanians):


http://folksardiniancostumes.blogspot.it/search?updated-max=2012-09-26T18:07:00-07:00&max-results=7&start=7&by-date=false
http://folksardiniancostumes.blogspot.it/search?updated-max=2012-09-21T05:48:00-07:00&max-results=7&start=10&by-date=false
http://folksardiniancostumes.blogspot.it/search?updated-max=2012-09-19T06:48:00-07:00&max-results=7&start=11&by-date=false
http://folksardiniancostumes.blogspot.it/search?updated-max=2012-09-18T16:42:00-07:00&max-results=7&start=12&by-date=false

[ButlerKing]

thousand group photos of Sardinians (not Sardanians):

http:/ostumes.blogspot.it/

They honestly look very West Asian to me.

Individually they can pass for Europeans

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rQqWelrFtzM/UMaRJBjzSGI/AAAAAAAADHY/3esLqGD3aqE/s1600/sardinian+people++sardinians+(7).jpg

But in group I don't think so.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7-SD9ZPpsMA/UKPxsOmlZEI/AAAAAAAAC8w/f8eHaTw2DzE/s640/_+%25287%2529.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1WIg2w9efuc/UMaRPFNB2oI/AAAAAAAADIA/CHVN2__J9Nw/s1600/silanus+(4).jpg

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Soutwest Asian is also a middle eastern component, just because Adygei almost have any doesn't mean you should ignore Greeks with that admixture. Their more related than European component at the end of the day and are non-European. I never denied adygei are more west Asian, I'm saying if you compare the west Asian admixture ( or better said non-European admixture ) than Greeks are closer to Adygei than Russians.



That's a bull crap you made up yourself, try quoting in this page that I said Agygei were more European. I said the greeks are closer to Adygei than Russians in Non-European admixture and European admixture.

I never did ignore it, all I mentioned was that it's not the same as the West Asian component. You're purposely trying to obfuscate Middle Eastern admixture in Greeks in order to prove the Adygei are Europeans, by collectively referring to both components as "West Asian". They're related, but they're not the same component.

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/caucasus_plot21.jpg

As this, and other numerous PCA Plots reveal, the Adygei are not in any of the intra-European clusters. They're not European, get over it.

[P-Chan]

They honestly look very West Asian to me.



yeah, surely they look more west asian than west Asians LOL

anyway this is my last post, I can't waste my time answering a fanatical caucasian that pretend to be British and that try to demostrate funny statements discrediting real Europeans like Sardinians, Tuscanians and other Italians.

[Hoca]

Butthurtking is definately not British.

[ButlerKing]

I never did ignore it, all I mentioned was that it's not the same as the West Asian component. You're purposely trying to obfuscate Middle Eastern admixture in Greeks in order to prove the Adygei are Europeans, by collectively referring to both components as "West Asian". They're related, but they're not the same component.

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/caucasus_plot21.jpg

As this, and other numerous PCA Plots reveal, the Adygei are not in any of the intra-European clusters. They're not European, get over it.


You failed to show the part I claimed Adygei were more European than Greeks.

What you don't realize is that the reason Adygei can ovelapp with southern Europeans is because they have high European admixture in addition Southern Europeans and Greeks also have high West Asian admixture.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Alright than, why don't you go ahead and show me your cherry picked pictures of Sardinians but do make sure their all in group photos not individuals.

Yet another PCA Plot that disproves your insipid eyeball assessment of the "Europeanness" of the Adygei.

https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Yet another PCA Plot that disproves your insipid eyeball assessment of the "Europeanness" of the Adygei.

https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

Oh yeah??

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/fig1mapagain.png

[ZephyrousMandaru]

You failed to show the part I claimed Adygei were more European than Greeks.

What you don't realize is that the reason Adygei can ovelapp with southern Europeans is because they have high European admixture in addition Southern Europeans and Greeks also have high West Asian admixture.

You weren't claiming it, but you were implying it throughout this thread. Don't play dumb with me. Individual Adygei do stray, and overlap with some Europeans, namely Eastern Europeans. But as a whole, they do not. This is something you're going to have to learn to deal with. Also, you're not British, I can detect that accent of yours from miles away. You're not fooling anyone.

[ButlerKing]

You weren't claiming it, but you were implying it throughout this thread. Don't play dumb with me. Individual Adygei do stray, and overlap with some Europeans, namely Eastern Europeans. But as a whole, they do not. This is something you're going to have to learn to deal with. Also, you're not British, I can detect that accent of yours from miles away. You're not fooling anyone.

I was implying Adygei look white and European the way Southern European look, I also said some can look East European.

There are far more reasons than just not being able to write English properly, I sometimes have learning disabilities.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Oh yeah??

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/fig1mapagain.png

Yeah.

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/81/eutest2scores.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/R79MQyHURBI/AAAAAAAAAFY/wGoK4ZBAg9c/s320/pcascience.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/1zgf5hi.png

[Illancha]

many tend to look whiter(pigmention wise) than south and southeast euros...dont know why
Because 'whiteness' does not mean Europeaness.

Is there anyway to prove that the white phenotype originated in Europe?

[Prince Carlo]

Because 'whiteness' does not mean Europeaness.

Is there anyway to prove that the white phenotype originated in Europe?

"Whiteness" was created by Europeans to describe themselves. That's that.

[Prince Carlo]

Oh yeah??

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/fig1mapagain.png

That study uses a very small number of SNPs so it's not reliable.

[nart87]

Chechen have nothing to do with Circassians in any way. Caucasus history doesn't belong to you alone but also to the Circassians that live in Turkey. You are in outsider in the Circassian catastrophe and make up lies about Turks forcing Circassians to become Turks. This is completely not true.



I already told you that majority of Circassian population of the world live in Turkey. How can we not represent them? You are a confused Chechen thinking you are Circassian.

This is not the first time you lecture Turks on this issue. Turks did everything they could to help Circassians. Russia deported. We helped and you blame us and not the Russians? Circassians in Turkey would think very differntly

No matter what you say, Circassians are thankful to Turks until the end of the world. We provided them a home and now part of our nation.

Nooo, not at all, Circassians and Chechens have only been direct neighbours for a throughout their history but what's the difference right? And forget the many similarities between Circassians and Northeast-Caucasians, it's nothing.

Turks let Circassians live in Turkey because their men were excellent soldiers and their women beautiful and with time Turks suppressed Circassians and other minorities. My very experience is that turkish Circassians almost completely lost their culture. Many of them dance and wing the flag, but they've lost values and language. There aren't any significant connections between Turks and Circassians, even their connection with Russians is bigger.

Anyway, I don't think you can call Circassians European or West-Asian genetically, because they're obviously both. It's better to call them North-Caucasians. But phenotypically, they are. I do look typically Circassian but people often mistake me for being German before they don't know my name. That's my experience at least..

[Illancha]

Nooo, not at all, Circassians and Chechens have only been direct neighbours for a throughout their history but what's the difference right? And forget the many similarities between Circassians and Northeast-Caucasians, it's nothing.

Turks let Circassians live in Turkey because their men were excellent soldiers and their women beautiful and with time Turks suppressed Circassians and other minorities. My very experience is that turkish Circassians almost completely lost their culture. Many of them dance and wing the flag, but they've lost values and language. There aren't any significant connections between Turks and Circassians, even their connection with Russians is bigger.

Anyway, I don't think you can call Circassians European or West-Asian genetically, because they're obviously both. It's better to call them North-Caucasians. But phenotypically, they are. I do look typically Circassian but people often mistake me for being German before they don't know my name. That's my experience at least..
Welcome to the forum Circassian brother.

Yeah I also have no trouble at all blending in in Europe. The English only discover I'm not one of them when I tell them my name (which actually in itself is not obviously foreign).

I do not refer to myself as European or Asian either, I identify as a Caucasian, North Caucasian to be specific.

[StonyArabia]

The Adyghe are certainly White but are not European. For example these are two Adygean females who would be considered White. Kavkazians are related to Anatolians, but certainly not Levantines or any Semites, but they also they are proto-European.

http://s22.postimg.org/omhm94hap/Circassia.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
online photo sharing (http://postimage.org/)

http://s23.postimg.org/qtpzrev17/Circassia4.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
image share (http://postimage.org/)

[riverman]

The Adyghe are certainly White but are not European. For example these are two Adygean females who would be considered White. Kavkazians are related to Anatolians, but certainly not Levantines or any Semites, but they also they are proto-European.

http://s22.postimg.org/omhm94hap/Circassia.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
online photo sharing (http://postimage.org/)

http://s23.postimg.org/qtpzrev17/Circassia4.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
image share (http://postimage.org/)

I'm not disagreeing with you, but what do you mean by "Anatolian"? Because there are major differences in opinion what average looks are for these people

[riverman]

Also, if I remember some pictures correctly, some do look semitic

[Sarmatian]

Welcome to the forum Circassian brother.

Yeah I also have no trouble at all blending in in Europe. The English only discover I'm not one of them when I tell them my name (which actually in itself is not obviously foreign).

I do not refer to myself as European or Asian either, I identify as a Caucasian, North Caucasian to be specific.

That is the thing. It is safe to conclude that Circassians, Nakhs and all other people of Caucasus are unique distinct cultural entity without any affinity to Europe or Asia. There is no point in trying to find anything that may connect them to European or any other culture. They are different in every way and honestly they are happy and proud of what they are and don't really care much about anything outside of Caucasus. While being obviously different from each other for anyone familiar with their cultures they still so similar that no outsider will be ever able to tell the difference. That makes a Chechen far more knowledgeable in Circassian affairs than even most Turkified Circassians.

[Wild North]

That is the thing. It is safe to conclude that Circassians, Nakhs and all other people of Caucasus are unique distinct cultural entity without any affinity to Europe or Asia. There is no point in trying to find anything that may connect them to European or any other culture. They are different in every way and honestly they are happy and proud of what they are and don't really care much about anything outside of Caucasus. While being obviously different from each other for anyone familiar with their cultures they still so similar that no outsider will be ever able to tell the difference. That makes a Chechen far more knowledgeable in Circassian affairs than even most Turkified Circassians.

Am I correct when I´m saying that in Russia that "Caucasians" is used more like a sweeping generalized term? More or less to any dark or swarthy non-Russian. And this predominantly in the northern cities, like Moscow. I´m asking because I´ve heard Russians saying that f. ex "Tajiks are the worst Caucasians".. Last I´ve looked on a map Tajikia was still in Central Asia.
And note I´m not saying that all Russians reasons like this.

[Sarmatian]

Am I correct when I´m saying that in Russia that "Caucasians" is used more like a sweeping generalized term? More or less to any dark or swarthy non-Russian. And this predominantly in the northern cities, like Moscow. I´m asking because I´ve heard Russians saying that f. ex "Tajiks are the worst Caucasians".. Last I´ve looked on a map Tajikia was still in Central Asia.
And note I´m not saying that all Russians reasons like this.

As a man grown up at Caucasus I've never heard of such nonsense. But I wouldn't be surprised if some ignorant retards up North can tell no difference between Caucasians and Central Asians.

[Sky earth]

Nooo, not at all, Circassians and Chechens have only been direct neighbours for a throughout their history but what's the difference right? And forget the many similarities between Circassians and Northeast-Caucasians, it's nothing.

Turks let Circassians live in Turkey because their men were excellent soldiers and their women beautiful and with time Turks suppressed Circassians and other minorities. My very experience is that turkish Circassians almost completely lost their culture. Many of them dance and wing the flag, but they've lost values and language. There aren't any significant connections between Turks and Circassians, even their connection with Russians is bigger.

Anyway, I don't think you can call Circassians European or West-Asian genetically, because they're obviously both. It's better to call them North-Caucasians. But phenotypically, they are. I do look typically Circassian but people often mistake me for being German before they don't know my name. That's my experience at least..

You're right! There is no strong Circassian identity in Turkey. Almost all Circassians are completely assimilated into Turkish culture.Most Turks are even surprised when they hear that Adyghe people are not Turkic actually but Caucasian people. It's the same with the Laz people. They are even one of the most patriotic Turks

[ButlerKing]

A beauty like this? how can she not be white?
http://s15.postimg.org/piwmcj5tn/Circassiangirl4.jpg

[Krampus]

Evryone in the Caucasus but Turanians are white. So Georgians, Armenians, Azeris, Adygei etc. are all white people.

[ButlerKing]

Evryone in the Caucasus but Turanians are white. So Georgians, Armenians, Azeris, Adygei etc. are all white people.

Glad there's another person who thinks like me. I would have considered Turks as white but unfortunately their predominate Middle eastern DNA and additional 10-20% Mongoloid admixture have made them non-white. However if they were pure Anatolians I might consider them being White.

[Fire Haired]

Yes the Adyghe are White, but it also depends on what you mean by European, geographically yes, culturally certainly no, since the Adyghe for the most part were never tied to European Christendom in way or form. However they are certainly White, however anyone disregarding this, is due to cultural elements, since Sicilians and especially the Cypriots are less European than Adyghei. As well many Adyghei children are blond or with red hair. For example my father was originally a redhead, especially in his baby pictures.

European is not a culture Europe has gone under many culturally changes. Mesolithic and Paloithic hunter gathers aka Cro magnon 55,000-10,000ybp( Europeans ancestors arrived between 35,000-55,000ybp) created aust, DNA north Euro, Y DNA I, F, and C mtDNA U(mainly U5 and U5b), H, HV, N, and X.

Neolithic age 10,000-6,000ybp mid easterns with y dna G2a and aust. dna meditreaen spread mtDNA T, J, K maybe more spread acroos Europe and seem to have killed off many hunter gathers

Indo European warrior bronze and iron age 6,000-2,000ybp( Vikings in Scandinavia had it till 1,000ybp) spread y DNA R1a1a1b and y DNA R1b L11/P310 conquered Neolithic Europeans by force. descended from mainly Paloithic and Mesolithic Europeans spread red hair in Europe.

Roman civilized Christian age. romans conquered Indo European cultures in Europe mainly Celts and also eventfully conquered the est of Europe culturally. Christainty was spreading like crazy in the mid east, north Africa, Italy, and Greece, and also later spread like crazy in Celts, Germans, and Iberians of western Europe. eventually suprisngly Rome made Christianity its official religion. Christianity then spread as a mix of willing and forced conversions. Christians in the mid east and north Africa where conquered by Muslims so Europe became the center of Christianity with Rome as its capital. Christians in Europe had almost completely left the Bible till the 1400's they started to become true Christians again.
After western Roman empire fell 476ad Europeans had basically forgotten their old traditions and created a new culture based on Rome. I already explained how they became Christian and became the center of the Christian world. Christianity is probably what helped Europe survive and become successful after Rome. This new culture over time changed and made new traditions eventually leading up to modern Europe and America aka the western World.

So the European culture that Europe has today is only about 1,500 years old at the most it does not define Europeans geneticalley at all.

Adygue proabably had a significant amount of European ancestry that probably is from constant inter marriage for over 20,000 years. There are some people in the caucus mountain area like Georgains who look European but have almost no European blood it raealy confuses me. mid easterns, north Africans, and Europeans are apart of the same race the Caucasian race some mid easterns and north Africans have the same pale skin genes as Europeans at some point those genes became dominate in Europeans ancestors. Europeans closest relatives overall if u go by aust. DNA, Y DNA, and mtDNA are people who live around Caucus mountains, Iraq, and Iran possibly the reason why Caucus people are pale like Europeans is because they are so related. possibly Europeans migrated out of the caucus mountains over 30,000 years ago will Georgians ancestors stayed.

[Trun]

They are churkas who look like Paki people. Russia stronk, remove kebab!

[Mad Unit]

They are churkas who look like Paki people. Russia stronk, remove kebab!

Circassian mean - the one who cuts off his head. Ask your cowardly ancestors, ass вulgarian. They are about this very well know!

[Mad Unit]

Circassian faces !

http://se.uploads.ru/t/WEL0H.jpg (http://uploads.ru/WEL0H.jpg)
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[Mad Unit]

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http://se.uploads.ru/t/cZiXx.jpg (http://uploads.ru/cZiXx.jpg)
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http://se.uploads.ru/t/H27sW.jpg (http://uploads.ru/H27sW.jpg)

[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

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http://se.uploads.ru/t/noRHU.jpg (http://uploads.ru/noRHU.jpg)

[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

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http://se.uploads.ru/t/nL5vU.jpg (http://uploads.ru/nL5vU.jpg)

[Mad Unit]

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412259327/7779e57a/6528819_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/7779e57a6528819.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412259327/a1144c52/6528820_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/a1144c526528820.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412259328/fee57f8c/6528821_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/fee57f8c6528821.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412259328/e619cca3/6528822_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/e619cca36528822.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412259328/9ca6557b/6528823_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/9ca6557b6528823.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412259328/c144f4c9/6528824_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/c144f4c96528824.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412259329/689ae707/6528825_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/689ae7076528825.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412259329/fe85f246/6528826_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/fe85f2466528826.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412259329/c8958efe/6528827_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/c8958efe6528827.html)

[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412611481/cbe12423/6567310_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/cbe124236567310.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412611494/0ee50acb/6567312_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/0ee50acb6567312.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412611494/f3f29675/6567313_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/f3f296756567313.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412611495/4e4316ce/6567314_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/4e4316ce6567314.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412611495/042512ab/6567315_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/042512ab6567315.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412611495/6d1410d4/6567316_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/6d1410d46567316.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1412611495/1c697f2c/6567317_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/1c697f2c6567317.html)

[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

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[Mikula]

See them dancing 0:16-0:35
:cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2kN9qaZK-0

[Mad Unit]

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[Mad Unit]

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918467/f48b4995/7783454_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/f48b49957783454.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918467/38804d0b/7783455_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/38804d0b7783455.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918468/321b2b43/7783456_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/321b2b437783456.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918468/20b97fd1/7783457_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/20b97fd17783457.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918468/cab924dd/7783458_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/cab924dd7783458.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918468/c027142e/7783459_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/c027142e7783459.html)

[Mad Unit]

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918590/69215488/7783474_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/692154887783474.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918590/b9b237a1/7783475_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/b9b237a17783475.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918590/7bc68a19/7783476_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/7bc68a197783476.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918590/e4f17a65/7783477_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/e4f17a657783477.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918590/2ebc3787/7783478_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/2ebc37877783478.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918590/97ceeb0b/7783479_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/97ceeb0b7783479.html)

[Mad Unit]

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918643/a85dbb09/7783484_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/a85dbb097783484.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918644/b0790516/7783485_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/b07905167783485.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918644/52955307/7783486_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/529553077783486.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918644/983f7a57/7783487_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/983f7a577783487.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918645/004a58a7/7783488_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/004a58a77783488.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918645/516bde8b/7783489_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/516bde8b7783489.html)

[Mad Unit]

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918718/3bdd489e/7783494_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/3bdd489e7783494.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918718/3cfac6f5/7783495_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/3cfac6f57783495.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918718/179b6622/7783496_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/179b66227783496.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918718/f4b2d2ae/7783497_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/f4b2d2ae7783497.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918718/921c8bf7/7783498_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/921c8bf77783498.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918718/42920b84/7783499_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/42920b847783499.html)

[Mad Unit]

http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918802/36f98a9b/7783513_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/36f98a9b7783513.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918802/fa738f8d/7783514_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/fa738f8d7783514.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918803/a67b1d94/7783515_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/a67b1d947783515.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918803/918a2eb8/7783516_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/918a2eb87783516.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918803/22f2fad0/7783517_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/22f2fad07783517.html) http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1423918803/8b7dd16b/7783518_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/8b7dd16b7783518.html)

[Mad Unit]

Circassian dance ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkujbUyvxrQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY8LLGOPnL0

[Mad Unit]

Circassian folk song


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8EYVMIPdr8

[Mad Unit]

http://se.uploads.ru/iactF.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/P4dZW.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/c6ndv.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/65CpJ.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/YTEs8.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/A7HQk.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/nHhew.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/PsNwY.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/lFoPv.png
http://se.uploads.ru/QrVEH.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/XoZW4.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://se.uploads.ru/zZby1.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/Hcxp2.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/lPNRi.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/d7X8y.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/oWaLG.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/omxng.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/zty9s.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/IQzLo.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/p35yA.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/IW0bA.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/hqoaT.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/qeSuw.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/ODYzd.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/1NXi7.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/cm1Oo.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/hfSse.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sd.uploads.ru/z2mFp.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/3hCrQ.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/FKm8V.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/cSy0j.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/YsObD.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/TrNqi.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/0WNrp.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/Zw8xH.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/jYbMJ.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/y17pe.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/UniDN.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/bYeRQ.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/ySZmf.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/4BFnQ.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/wbBvM.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sf.uploads.ru/bZt6i.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/Rcpil.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/256Fk.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/h7wlW.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/QTWAG.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/vR7xz.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/lLhgC.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/sR1DL.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/MAYEn.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/6YPix.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/sid2q.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/luh58.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/RJdZw.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sf.uploads.ru/BNqVP.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/t/WdzfG.jpg (http://uploads.ru/WdzfG.jpg)
http://se.uploads.ru/t/W893w.jpg (http://uploads.ru/W893w.jpg)
http://se.uploads.ru/t/nAfHv.jpg (http://uploads.ru/nAfHv.jpg)
http://se.uploads.ru/t/VSzaN.jpg (http://uploads.ru/VSzaN.jpg)
http://se.uploads.ru/t/qinx3.jpg (http://uploads.ru/qinx3.jpg)
http://sf.uploads.ru/t/9kKcP.jpg (http://uploads.ru/9kKcP.jpg)
http://se.uploads.ru/t/ZqfyQ.jpg (http://uploads.ru/ZqfyQ.jpg)
http://sf.uploads.ru/t/7GF4b.jpg (http://uploads.ru/7GF4b.jpg)
http://sd.uploads.ru/t/QLxyF.jpg (http://uploads.ru/QLxyF.jpg)
http://se.uploads.ru/t/feXaC.jpg (http://uploads.ru/feXaC.jpg)
http://se.uploads.ru/t/EAW7Q.jpg (http://uploads.ru/EAW7Q.jpg)
http://sf.uploads.ru/t/PHIGv.jpg (http://uploads.ru/PHIGv.jpg)
http://sd.uploads.ru/t/3rOGn.png (http://uploads.ru/3rOGn.png)

[Mad Unit]

http://sd.uploads.ru/6UsWF.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/7O4So.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/HiG8a.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/ekrDw.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/7tvON.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/rMiIs.jpg Deniz Akkaya
http://se.uploads.ru/MPsDn.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/vWl9Y.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/4GciX.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/J1xEm.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/fD6xw.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/ZMjW5.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/6fwOG.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/vVg1O.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/Pkh01.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://se.uploads.ru/lvGV8.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/i6WSg.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/4rgCk.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/MCaJz.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/Pq3va.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/8LmpU.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/Q7YMg.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/km3CN.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/Ch71O.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/apeNz.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/D6WSO.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/EphLX.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/Fi9w2.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/XChxU.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/uJYdG.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/BXtRz.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/seKcD.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://se.uploads.ru/IBmXT.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/ZjA1p.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/PBOcl.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/OINwk.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/p2zlJ.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/kG9oP.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/ziwpk.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/4lmV7.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/CIviR.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sd.uploads.ru/v2AZd.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/exyPU.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/leUtj.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/TZ9pK.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/oPfVz.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/d2gsi.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/QIMoc.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/xbsYG.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/ehsvA.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/kWo0N.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/KJvuz.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/U6keP.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://se.uploads.ru/u4Zct.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/ihQNb.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/O8lmK.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/7KkiP.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/XNKI6.png

[Mad Unit]

http://sd.uploads.ru/td0Ig.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/VHsAF.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/WgGvm.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/fvVT2.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/zn9Il.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/XQwtn.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/NF6RS.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/gnPkb.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/bXgLU.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://se.uploads.ru/DoPic.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/LiDmj.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/dvN7Y.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/fi2bw.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/Bk5GL.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/u82aZ.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/cxBLW.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/Jr4cV.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/Itf51.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/gGWzR.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/CU7e6.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/azl9m.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/bZNeq.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sd.uploads.ru/61hF8.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/YdQxm.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/NTydM.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/K65dV.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/iknfU.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/JBTiY.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/fiINw.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/RUn7P.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/I5Elk.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/UYc4H.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/EDPgr.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sd.uploads.ru/lIJRY.jpg





http://sf.uploads.ru/BQbUK.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/0Rvf7.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/uB7sk.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/e7bO2.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/0Hayi.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/kreEf.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/Im9xZ.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/P0hlC.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/QWqK3.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/ghbp7.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/dh0xZ.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/1nAHr.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/Ven8J.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/wLpH1.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://se.uploads.ru/u1IKq.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/wMzfQ.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/ztFOP.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/3bVdS.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/dEwO1.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/EY9F2.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/1ST9w.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/fHD1L.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/wLHsp.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/ZKuLk.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/39K7k.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/ARQ00.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/H6aqP.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/p5eHO.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/NMkn0.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://se.uploads.ru/CcM4Q.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/RSl3v.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/4TuQ5.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/Wb6t8.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/jx0A2.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/FsZXJ.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/0kImg.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/VxXP8.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sf.uploads.ru/Ja2pY.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/8pRUq.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/lOzeU.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/ciZT8.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/IErRG.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/pFfV7.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sf.uploads.ru/UcZaH.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/MfZFK.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/Al1ow.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/FQDNO.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/sHw3O.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/CTbrn.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/kbKSX.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/4sSpR.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/dSgmM.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/Jsz1W.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://se.uploads.ru/fF00L.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/7YgBJ.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/nz2y3.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/7XfGp.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/8Dlyf.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/2seIf.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/ztQVs.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/3mUF4.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/ZbWm0.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/WerpP.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/nIeKg.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/jrD08.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/8nP1x.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sf.uploads.ru/umcsv.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/YGIAJ.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/03Azo.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/0InT9.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/8AHfW.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/JxXbo.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/cChyG.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sd.uploads.ru/PIfjr.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/dSUgM.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/ca2Ze.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/URezV.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/C5eLH.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/kvCDM.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/b6eMo.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/COiDm.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/61qNH.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/wSIe0.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/20fhS.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/a0Vds.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sd.uploads.ru/yfjEF.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/d7ZSR.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/1wXMA.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/1Voqs.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/CrVJ8.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/qftm7.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/X1V87.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/DWRX0.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/IQU1b.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/5Gdn7.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/rm480.jpg

[Mad Unit]

http://sd.uploads.ru/pPhQv.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/rA6bY.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/ZjwTE.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/gleV3.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/f4VSv.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/FucN4.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/ly3Oz.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/DbMrf.jpg
http://se.uploads.ru/B6zVI.jpg
http://sf.uploads.ru/0Ways.jpg
http://sd.uploads.ru/vnKS8.jpg