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Æmeric
08-21-2009, 04:57 PM
What should happen to the British colony of Gibraltar? The nuclear powered aircraft carrier has rendered it obsolete in modern naval warfare. And Britain no longer rules the waves.:wink But it has been under British rule for over 300-years. Before England took it, as the spoils of war, it was an uninhabited rock connected to the mainland of Europe by a narrow peninsula, frequented by pirates. Spain claims it as part of it internal territory by geography but if that is the case then what about Portugal which was also part of the Spanish realm at one time? Spain btw has 2 enclaves along the coast of Morocco, Melilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla) & Ceuta. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta)


http://www.gibraltarairquality.gi/images/gibraltar_map.gif

Should Britain continue the status quo? Should Gibraltar become independent? This option would actually need Spanish approval as the Treaty of Utrecht which ended the War of the Spanish Succession (in which Britain captured Gibraltar) forbids Britain from ceding Gibraltar to a third nation, presumably even an independent Gibraltar. Should Gibraltar be returned to the Spaniards? Share your opinions.

Karaten
08-21-2009, 05:23 PM
I'm not quite sure yet, I think a few more thousand people need to die first.

Loddfafner
08-21-2009, 05:36 PM
If the British government really wants to dispose of Gibraltar, they should offer its residents a referendum with the choices being Morocco and Spain.

Liffrea
08-21-2009, 06:31 PM
It’s up to the people of Gibraltar, I’m not sure how many are of British descent but the UK government should consider itself honour bound to respect their wishes and to defend them if they wish to remain a British dependency, same with the Falkland’s (the only war with a point Britain has fought since 1918) and with Ulster.

Beorn
08-24-2009, 01:12 AM
How about this actually goes into the brand spanking new, independence swallowing United Kingdom section?

RoyBatty
08-24-2009, 01:25 AM
Some years ago Britain tried to dispose of it in connivance with the Spain govt. The local Gibraltarians (ethnic Spaniards afaik) were nearly unanimously opposed to the thought of coming under Spanish rule.

The reason?

Gibraltar has very cosy financial and economic arrangements (probably including money laundering) under their current status. Once under Spanish rule that all will likely change.

I wouldn't say it's an irrelevant or obsolete piece of real estate either. Controlling it does offer a degree of control over what comes in and out of the Med. There hasn't been a modern example of how carriers would fare against serious opposition (bombing poor little third world countries doesn't count).

Personally I'd rather control than not control such a piece of real estate.

Loyalist
08-24-2009, 01:27 AM
Gibraltar, like Ulster, is British. :)

Loki
08-24-2009, 01:38 AM
How about this actually goes into the brand spanking new, independence swallowing United Kingdom section?

Moved.

Murphy
08-24-2009, 02:21 AM
I honestly think that it is in Spain's best interests to protect its territorial integrity.


Some years ago Britain tried to dispose of it in connivance with the Spain govt. The local Gibraltarians (ethnic Spaniards afaik) were nearly unanimously opposed to the thought of coming under Spanish rule.

Spaniards are a minority in Gibraltar as far as I know.

Regards,
Eóin.

Poltergeist
08-24-2009, 08:38 AM
I honestly think that it is in Spain's best interests to protect its territorial integrity.

Here we are dealing with two states claimig it as issue of their respective territorial integrity.

Loki
08-24-2009, 08:56 AM
I honestly think that it is in Spain's best interests to protect its territorial integrity.


European borders have always shifted. Gibraltar is not part of Spain since a long time ago. And the Gibraltarians don't want it to change either. Why force it on them?

Skandi
08-24-2009, 09:01 AM
since a long time ago.

296 years :)

Beorn
08-24-2009, 12:30 PM
When the inevitable happens and the UK dissolves into the pages of history, with England, Scotland and Wales all gaining their independence, the island of Gibraltar is on its own. Free to conduct elections and whatnot at its own leisure....unless the Welsh or Scots want it, of course.

Comte Arnau
08-25-2009, 07:50 PM
Gibraltar was given to the British with the Treaty of Utrecht, in 1713, never accepted by the Catalans, as Minorca was also given. The British preferred not to continue helping the Catalans, as it'd have meant going on with a long war. (Yes, they tried later to convince other nations about the creation of a Catalan Republic, but there were just words and nothing else.) That is why the Catalans were left alone and Barcelona was eventually conquered by the Spaniards one year later. Sniff. The Portuguese were luckier.

Óttar
08-25-2009, 08:01 PM
On the one hand, I think Gibraltar remains as a "nanny-nanny boo-boo" the British can rub Spanish noses in... AKA Britannia remains Queen of the Seas biz-nitches! (:P)

But then there remains the question of what becomes of Gibraltar after the dissolution of the UK? In that case, I would support the independence of Gibraltar as a unique, sovereign territorial anomaly.

There's no way it would ever revert to Jabar al-Tariq (the rock of Tariq).

Poltergeist
08-25-2009, 08:24 PM
Spain is militarily very mighty country and they could regain it by military force, if they wanted.

Loyalist
08-25-2009, 09:07 PM
Spain is militarily very mighty country and they could regain it by military force, if they wanted.

Britain's mightier. ;)

Poltergeist
08-25-2009, 09:14 PM
I was being ironical. :p

Óttar
08-26-2009, 07:03 AM
Spain is militarily very mighty country and they could regain it by military force, if they wanted.
The "international community" would frown upon it. Apparently European countries aren't allowed to fight a good old fashioned war anymore. Mostly because the means and technology of modern warfare are no longer old fashioned.

Loki
08-26-2009, 09:48 AM
Apparently European countries aren't allowed to fight a good old fashioned war anymore.

Thank heavens for that. A century too late though, I think.

Treffie
08-26-2009, 09:55 AM
Last time I went to Gibraltar, it was a stinky shithole - I was very disappointed. Strange experience crossing the border though - one has to cross from driving on the left to drivng on the right. Also, the airport runway crosses the road that comes in to Gibraltar.

As for which way they wish to be governed, why not ask the Gibraltarians?

Affenkid
08-28-2009, 07:35 PM
Well,
1. When you cross the frontier from Spain you still remain on the left side of the road and vice versa as traffic flow was changed early in the last century by a smart Governor so...traffic violation from your part perhaps?

2. Road through runway...and? No runway disasters since 1948(ish) and that was a British military f*ck up so it doesn't count. Weirder things in the world...at least for me.

3. Thankfully we are a self-governing (non-dependant on British cash) British overseas territory. We do not rely on cash injections from Her Majesty's Governmental coffers, thank you very much.

4. As a born and bred Gibraltarian I have the best of many cultures at my disposal. We are a diverse bunch with British, Spanish, Maltese, Genovese, Sephardic and Morrocan backgrounds. Native Gibraltarians, even though we speak our own little vernacular 'Yanito/Llanito' we are resolutely British, with our afternoon teas, Pints, fish and chips et al. Our education is utterly completely derived from the British education system and curriculums. But who cares now, when half of Britain is living a mass exodus to the Med? For it seems that all that is left of the British Empire is an obnoxious little rock that will not give in to snide politics. As with our last two referendums 99% of the Gibraltarian population voter pro British as opposed to Spanish rule. It's not that we don't like the Spanish, it's just that all we know, is how to be British Gibraltarians. So why change 300 years of a good thing?

5. To all you people (possibly Spanish or Brits) who voted to give Gibraltar back to Spain, wakey wakey Gibraltar was ceded by Spain to the Crown of Great Britain in perpetuity, under the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, in exchange for Menorca and Florida (USA).

6. Oh and Arawn ...as a stinky resident of the 'shithole' you claim Gibraltar to be, please don't come back. It might not be the most idyllic place on earth (3 murders in 50 years, sunny beaches, great atmosphere, helpful people) but hey, it's my shithole.:thumbs up

Affenkid
08-29-2009, 12:44 AM
If the British government really wants to dispose of Gibraltar, they should offer its residents a referendum with the choices being Morocco and Spain.

2 referendums, 1969 and 2003 nothing changed in 30 years...no to Spanish rule.
Oh and 'dispose'? what are we? Unwanted toys? wheres all the human rights crap...the EU...humanity...Obama?

BTW the Dutch could also claim us...our first governor was Dutch 1704-1709

The Lawspeaker
08-29-2009, 12:54 AM
BTW the Dutch could also claim us...our first governor was Dutch 1704-1709
That should be alright. Let's exchange the Netherlands Antilles for Gibraltar. About Spain's and Britain's eternal hazzle about the place: two dogs fight for the same bone- the third one nicks it from both. (Dutch proverb- very roughly translated).

O.K on a more serious note. Who cares ? This small strip of land was ceded to Britain and it's inhabitants do not seek to be ruled by Spain. Well- what if Spain followed the Hong Kong-model and let Gibraltar do it's own thing while being a part of Spain ?

Or in case that would be too much of a problem. What about independence ? Becoming a Monaco ?

Comte Arnau
08-29-2009, 01:01 AM
The thing is, why doesn't Spain also claim for Northern Catalonia? :)

The Lawspeaker
08-29-2009, 01:02 AM
The thing is, why doesn't Spain also claim for Northern Catalonia? :)
I believe they should. But I think that the answer is this: Northern Catalonia is one of the poorer areas of France.
Hence the reason why they couldn't give a damn even though the culture is still Catalan.

Comte Arnau
08-29-2009, 01:05 AM
I believe they should. But I think that the answer is this: Northern Catalonia is one of the poorer areas of France.
Hence the reason why they couldn't give a damn even though the culture is still Catalan.

Nah. The reason is that Spaniards know the core of their nation is Castile and its expansion to the South. Hence, Gibraltar is strongly perceived as part of the nation, while they couldn't care less about a lost piece of Catalonia.

The Lawspeaker
08-29-2009, 01:09 AM
Nah. The reason is that Spaniards know the core of their nation is Castile and its expansion to the South. Hence, Gibraltar is strongly perceived as part of the nation, while they couldn't care less about a lost piece of Catalonia.
A tad hypocritical isn't it ? The Spain crown came indeed into being after Aragon and Castile united and the rest is to be perceived as.. well.. winsgewest, Generality Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generality_Lands). Or ?

Comte Arnau
08-29-2009, 01:11 AM
The Spain crown came indeed into being after Aragon and Castile united

We can't continue if we part from that wrong premise. ;)

Æmeric
08-29-2009, 01:29 AM
A tad hypocritical isn't it ? The Spain crown came indeed into being after Aragon and Castile united and the rest is to be perceived as.. well.. winsgewest, Generality Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generality_Lands). Or ?

The Spanish Crown came into being after King Philip II of Aragon & Castile inherited the Crown of Portugal & stiled himself the "King of Spain", refering to the whole of the peninsula of Hispania. It was a personal union of crowns. Philip's heir kept the title even after Portugal rebeled against King Philip IV & chose the Duke of Braganza as King in 1640.

Castile has always been the core of the realm of Spain, just like England is the core of the UK.

Aragon & Castile did not become a unitary state until the reign of the first Bourbon king, Philip V.

Amapola
08-29-2009, 01:39 AM
When the Spaniards state "Gibraltar español" (Gibraltar is Spanish) they don't mean the Gibraltarians are Spanish. I don't think that anybody wants to oblige the colonists to be something they don't wish to be. The true Gibraltarian people got expelled and founded the town of San Roque, that's why it is called:
"Muy Noble y Más Leal ciudad de San Roque, donde reside la de Gibraltar"
"Very Noble and more Loyal city of San Roque, where the Gibraltar's (city) resides"

Poltergeist
08-29-2009, 01:41 AM
When the Spaniards state "Gibraltar español" (Gibraltar is Spanish) they don't mean Gibraltarians are Spanish. I don't think that anybody want oblige the colonists to be something they don't wish to be. The true Gibraltarian people got expelled and founded the town of San Roque, that's why is called:
"Muy Noble y Más Leal ciudad de San Roque, donde reside la de Gibraltar"
"Very Noble and more Loyal city of San Roque, where the Gibraltar's (city) resides"

Gibraltar hasn't been Spanish for the last 300 years.

What about Ceuta and Melilla and his Majesty, Mohammed VI, the King of Morocco's, claim on them?

Comte Arnau
08-29-2009, 01:45 AM
Aragon & Castile did not become a unitary state until the reign of the first Bourbon king, Philip V.

Aha. The union of Castile and Aragon in 1479 was a dynastic one, as there have been so many in history, but both Crowns kept their independence and monarchs felt foreigners when in the other Crown. It was so during the Habsburg period, and the Spanish Empire was de facto a Castilian Empire. The Aragonese Empire in the Mediterranean had come much into decline. It was with the coming of the Bourbon dynasty indeed that the king wanted to centralize both Crowns in the French way, and so assimilate the Crown of Aragon to the Castilian one. This happened de jure after the final conquest of Barcelona in 1714.

After 300 years, the process of assimilation hasn't finished. Aragon is 97% assimilated (its assimilation had begun before the 1700's), Valencia is more than 70% and also in Catalonia many Catalans already accept the statu quo as if it was a logical thing or Catalonia had been always Castilian.

Amapola
08-29-2009, 01:53 AM
Gibraltar hasn't been Spanish for the last 300 years.
Nevermind, it's been in the same place long time before England or Spain existed as political entities and it always will be. Personally, I am not interested in what they call themselves or the languages they speak...


What about Ceuta and Melilla and his Majesty, Mohammed VI, the King of Morocco's, claim on them?
As long as he does not claim it to me, it's all alright :D

Comte Arnau
08-29-2009, 01:57 AM
Ceuta and Melilla shouldn't be neither Spanish nor Moroccan.

They should be here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_the_Riff :)

Poltergeist
08-29-2009, 01:59 AM
Ceuta and Melilla shouldn't be neither Spanish nor Moroccan.

They should be here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_the_Riff :)

Ah, the famous Abd el Krim. :)

Falkata
08-29-2009, 03:30 AM
. Spain claims it as part of it internal territory by geography but if that is the case then what about Portugal which was also part of the Spanish realm at one time? Spain btw has 2 enclaves along the coast of Morocco,

Gibraltar was part of Spain before British took it. Ceuta and Melilla were never part of Morocco. That´s a big difference. Ceuta and Melilla are not colonies but part of Spain as Canary Islands or Madrid.
If Gibraltar people dont want to be part of Spain is not because they feel british or something like that, it´s just for the dirty business that they can do there...

Comte Arnau
08-29-2009, 03:33 AM
Gibraltar was part of Spain before British took it. Ceuta and Melilla were never part of Morocco. That´s a big difference. Ceuta and Melilla are not colonies but part of Spain as Canary Islands or Madrid.

It all depends on what we consider the exact foundation date of Spain. ;)

Technically, it's 1978. :)

Falkata
08-29-2009, 03:37 AM
It all depends on what we consider the exact foundation date of Spain. ;)

Technically, it's 1978. :)

That´s the beginning of the democracy or the "modern Spain".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07gQpEuv1qE

lol :D

A spanish humourist in the national day of Gibraltar with a spanish flag and blaming them. Funnily. they speak with andalousian accent and they look like ethnic spaniards. Weird

Comte Arnau
08-29-2009, 03:41 AM
That´s the beginning of the democracy or the "modern Spain".

That is why I say technically. Since Spain is a political constitutional State, the date of its birth is the date of its Constitution. A date nobody can deny. All other dates will be debatable, because you'll be using ethnic stuff instead of political one. ;)

Æmeric
08-29-2009, 03:47 AM
Gibraltar was part of Spain before British took it. Ceuta and Melilla were never part of Morocco. That´s a big difference. Ceuta and Melilla are not colonies but part of Spain as Canary Islands or Madrid.
If Gibraltar people dont want to be part of Spain is not because they feel british or something like that, it´s just for the dirty business that they can do there...

Gibraltar was never part of Spain but of Castile. Ceuta & Melilla were Portuguese possessions but Castile seized them after Portugal left the union with Castile. Before that they were Moorish possessions, Portugal conquered them in the 15th century. The Moroccan case for Ceuta & Melilla are just as valid as that of Spain for Gibraltar.

Falkata
08-29-2009, 03:52 AM
Gibraltar was never part of Spain but of Castile. Ceuta & Melilla were Portuguese possessions but Castile seized them after Portugal left the union with Castile. Before that they were Moorish possessions, Portugal conquered them in the 15th century. The Moroccan case for Ceuta & Melilla are just as valid as that of Spain for Gibraltar.

Castile was part of Spain, called "Las Españas" in that time. When Gibraltar was part of the Crown of Castile, the Crown of Aragon was already linked with it with the marriage in 1469 between the Queen of Castile Isabel and the King of Aragon Fernando.

It´s nosense to give Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco because Morocco didn´t exist yet and that lands were never part of that country or part of a region that nowadays is part of Morocco.

The "moroccan case" (what case?? , people in Ceuta and Melilla are ethnic spanish and speak spanish like any other ) has nothing to do with Gibraltar (ethnic spanish people with andalusian accent lol, they are even more spanish than me :D )

Comte Arnau
08-29-2009, 03:59 AM
Castile was part of Spain, called "Las Españas" in that time. When Gibraltar was part of the Crown of Castile, the Crown of Aragon was already linked with it with the marriage in 1469 between the Queen of Castile Isabel and the King of Aragon Fernando.

Do you also feel The Netherlands or Naples as part of Spain? Because it was the same kind of link. Ethnic assimilation began later.



people in Ceuta and Melilla are ethnic spanish and speak spanish like any other spanish)

No, not all are ethnic Spanish, specially in Melilla. Much of the child failure at school is because half of them are ethnic Riffians. And their language is not even co-official.


they are even more spanish than me :D )

Lol, you yourself admit it, you see? ;) Associating Spanish with Castilian is in the minds even of those who speak otherwise. :D

Falkata
08-29-2009, 04:09 AM
Do you also feel The Netherlands or Naples as part of Spain? Because it was the same kind of link. Ethnic assimilation began later.


No, not all are ethnic Spanish, specially in Melilla. Much of the child failure at school is because half of them are ethnic Riffians. And their language is not even co-official.



Lol, you yourself admit it, you see? ;) Associating Spanish with Castilian is in the minds even of those who speak otherwise. :D


No, but i suppose proximity and common historical facts, ethnicity .. made castillians closer to catalans than to dutchs or italians. Im not saying the union was total or something, i know there were still many differences between both crowns in everything (laws, language ..) till Nueva Planta.

And well, not all of them are ethnic spanish of course, but many of the ones who aren,t nowadays in Melilla or Ceuta are immigrants who came recently.

Comte Arnau
08-29-2009, 04:16 AM
No, but i suppose proximity and common historical facts, ethnicity .. made castillians closer to catalans than to dutchs or italians. Im not saying the union was total or something, i know there were still many differences between both crowns in everything (laws, language ..) till Nueva Planta.

Correct. My parallelism was to make it clear that one thing was the dynastic link (today we might call it political alliances) and a different thing is identification with that political entity. Not to mention ethnic identification, something that didn't happen even after 1714. In rural villages of Catalonia, and Upper Aragon (and I guess in Galicia too), Spanish-speaking people were called 'forasters' as late as the beginning of the 20th century!


And well, not all of them are ethnic spanish of course, but many of the ones who aren,t nowadays in Melilla or Ceuta are immigrants who came recently.

Well, I can't help seeing Melilla as a Riffean city. Riffean, not Moroccan, que conste.

Amapola
08-29-2009, 04:18 AM
Falkata, they are not ethnic Spanish, they are a potpourri of Mediterraneans (especially MAltese), English, and Jews.

Falkata
08-29-2009, 04:33 AM
Falkata, they are not ethnic Spanish, they are a potpourri of Mediterraneans (especially MAltese), English, and Jews.

Really? I thought they were mainly spanish, some british and i heard about the jews too. Didnt know about maltese :eek:
I still think it´s so weird when they speak with that strong andalousian accent about how english they feel :confused: If they couldn´t make all their business there i´m sure they wouldn´t care to much about UK anymore...

Amapola
08-29-2009, 04:38 AM
Really? I thought they were mainly spanish, some british and i heard about the jews too. Didnt know about maltese :eek:
I still think is so weird when they speak with that strong andalousian accent about how english they feel :confused: If they couldn´t make all their business there i´m sure they wouldn´t care to much about UK anymore...

It's hilarious I don't deny it...:p yet they say they are British rather than English and what's more...the majority prefers to call themselves Llanitos or Gibraltarians.

Amapola
11-19-2009, 10:24 AM
Well, I can't help seeing Melilla as a Riffean city. Riffean, not Moroccan, que conste.

Pues hijo, ahora que he descubierto que mi bisabuelo, el Verdegay precisamente, era de allí, va a ser que no... :eek: :D

-------------------------------------------------------
Edit. Can you write in English here please - this is the British section after all :D

Arawn

Comte Arnau
11-20-2009, 06:24 PM
Pues hijo, ahora que he descubierto que mi bisabuelo, el Verdegay precisamente, era de allí, va a ser que no... :eek: :D

Con todos mis respetos a tu bisabuelo, a su llegada los rifeños ya llevaban varios siglos afincados ahí. El mismo nombre de la ciudad es bereber.

Aunque puestos a ser precisos, es posible que su fundación no fuera bereber, sino fenicia.

----------------------------------------
Same for you too! :D

Arawn

Treffie
11-21-2009, 06:23 AM
^As much as I enjoy listening to Spanish being spoken, can you please use English in this section, thanks ;) :D

Brynhild
11-21-2009, 07:11 AM
Too much water has gone under the bridge for the Gilbraltarians to want their place to be with anyone except the U.K. The choice should be made by them, but what I see is they don't want to be ruled by the Spanish. It doesn't matter who might've claimed them in the past, it's what's going on now that counts. My vote was for independence, with reciprocal ties to the U.K.

Amapola
11-21-2009, 12:54 PM
Con todos mis respetos a tu bisabuelo, a su llegada los rifeños ya llevaban varios siglos afincados ahí. El mismo nombre de la ciudad es bereber.

Aunque puestos a ser precisos, es posible que su fundación no fuera bereber, sino fenicia.

----------------------------------------
Same for you too! :D

Arawn

Whatsoever the first foundation or settlers were and regardless of the fact that it is part of Spain now, it is significative that there is nearly 50 per cent of Muslims and Muslims parties are celebrated in public. When "the Perejil conflict" a 40 per cent of Melilla soldiers didn't obey :D

Nevertheless, I consider Melilla has been Spanish since it was occupied in 1,497 by Pedro de Estupiñán (funny surname :p) and that was part of the Reconquista (imho), a legitimate "return game".

In addition, I very much doubt they want to join Morcco on no account

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20071106elpepunac_17/XLCO/Ies/Expectacion_Melilla.jpg

:D

Comte Arnau
11-21-2009, 07:15 PM
In addition, I very much doubt they want to join Morcco on no account


I guess it all depends on what each Melillan Berber gives more importance to: religion, citizenship or ethnicity. If on the first, he'd want to join Morocco. If on the second, remain in Spain. If on the third, he'd love to see a free Rif.

Iago
12-12-2009, 03:04 PM
Spanish Scum, Want a War, Go Ahead.

We'll beat you, again, again and a fucking gain

Falkata
12-12-2009, 05:17 PM
Spanish Scum, Want a War, Go Ahead.

We'll beat you, again, again and a fucking gain

lol wtf

MarcvSS
12-12-2009, 08:19 PM
Do you also feel The Netherlands or Naples as part of Spain? Because it was the same kind of link. Please dont do this to me...

Murphy
12-13-2009, 07:42 AM
Spanish Scum, Want a War, Go Ahead.

We'll beat you, again, again and a fucking gain

Unban this man! He'll make for good sport!

Regards,
The Papist.

Lulletje Rozewater
12-13-2009, 08:47 AM
Miss World-Gibraltar
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/12/kaiane-aldorino-miss-worl_n_389843.html

With a name like that, Gibraltar should stay with GB
G-almighty we paid 91.000.000 for this stupid stint,entertaining for 1 month at the most expensive hotels and for what ????????

Murphy
12-13-2009, 11:14 AM
The population of Gibraltar should be shipped out to London, and the land reclaimed by Spain. If they need a new Irish brigade, I'll go down the pub and start recruitment!

Regards,
The Papist.

Comte Arnau
12-14-2009, 01:10 AM
The population of Gibraltar should be shipped out to London,

And once there, let them join the Spanish community in London. :p

-

Anyway, an interesting text -from the Catalan point of view, of course- published in the Guardian back in 1977:


The Spanish Government's claim the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713 has lapsed means that Catalonia is once again an independent State, according to the exiled National Council of Catalonia. Under the treaty, Spain ceded Gibraltar to Britain «with all manner of right for ever» and incorporated Catalonia into Spain for a similarly indefinite period. Spain cannot have it both ways, the Catalans argue. Either Gibraltar is Spanish and Catalonia is free or Gibraltar is British and Catalonia Spanish.

Spain's eagerness to get Gibraltar back (after more than two and a half centuries) has proved so infectious that the United Nations' decolonisation committee has accepted the Spanish case that Spain signed the Treaty of Utrecht under duress at the end of the War of the Spanish Succession.

Therefore, according to the Spanish case, the treaty no longer has validity in law, and is an historical anachronism.

In particular, say the Spaniards, there is Article 10 which states: «The Catholic king (Philip V) does hereby, for himself, his heirs, and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain, the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar together with the port, fortifications and and ports thereunto belonging: and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed abolsutely with all manner of right for ever...»

But also in particular, say the Catalans, there is Article 13: which reads: «whereas the Queen of Great Britain has continually pressed and insisted with the greatest earnestness that all the principality of Catalonia, of the principality of Catalonia, of what ever state or condition they may be, should not only obtain a full an perpetual oblivion of all that was done in the late war (Catalonia had been on Britain's side), and enjoy the entire possession of all their estates and honours but should also have their ancient privileges preserved safe and untouched.»

The article 13 went on to say that in return for Philip's forgiveness, Spain could have Catalonia. Without delay Spain annexed Catalonia, enforced Castilian law, the Castlian language, and administered the province from Madrid.

The Catalans argue that if Article 10 has gone down the river of time (as the Spanish Government claims) then Article 13 has gone down the river too. So Catalonia ought to be free and is currently enduring an illegal occupation by the forces of yet another Bourbon. (Philip V was a Bourbon and so is Juan Carlos.)

The Treaty of Utrecht, which came in several controversial measure. (Part of it gave Britain the monopoly for 30 years of the Atlantic slave trade.) Although Britain has never repudiated the treaty and maintains that it is still as valid as ever, it was not at all popular at the time Bolingbroke, who had negotiated the treaty, was impeached for his pains and fled in disguise to France. The Catalans, meanwhile, had to learn Castilian.


Mark Arnold-Forster
«The Guardian» (London, 20.4.1977)

safinator
02-20-2012, 05:34 PM
The most logical conclusion would be Gibraltar indipendence.

Damião de Góis
02-20-2012, 06:00 PM
The main ethnic groups, according to the origin of names in the electoral roll, are Britons (27%), Spanish (26%, mostly Andalusians but also some 2% of Minorcans), Genoese and other Italians (19%), Portuguese (11%), Maltese (8%), and Jews (3%).

Weird, what the hell are they doing there? Feeding the monkeys?

Amapola
02-20-2012, 06:16 PM
Weird, what the hell are they doing there? Feeding the monkeys?

As the real Gibraltarians were expelled and forced to move to another city, they had to refill the place with a mix of people from many places, I don't really know the patterns they followed, but apparently the Jewish and Maltese component is VERY high.

RitinNair
02-20-2012, 06:18 PM
Gibblaltar should be part of Spain.

Damião de Góis
02-20-2012, 06:19 PM
As the real Gibraltarians were expelled and forced to move to another city, they had to refill the place with a mix of people from many places, I don't really know the patterns they followed, but apparently the Jewish and Maltese component is VERY high.

According to wiki those two are small minorities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar#Ethnic_groups

Amapola
02-20-2012, 06:25 PM
According to wiki those two are small minorities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar#Ethnic_groups


principalmente compuesto de ascendencia británica, andaluza, genovesa, maltesa, portuguesa, así como árabe y judía originaria del norte de África y otros países del sur del Mediterráneo. Actualmente no existe más que una minoría de españoles residentes: los que trabajan en el peñón cruzan diariamente a Gibraltar para volver a sus casas tras la jornada laboral.
wiki too.


One of the main features of Gibraltar’s population is the diversity of their ethnic origins. The demographics of Gibraltar reflects Gibraltarians' racial and cultural fusion of the many European and other economic migrants who came to the Rock over three hundred years, after almost all of the Spanish population left in 1704.


The main ethnic groups, according to the origin of names in the electoral roll, are Britons (27%), Spanish (26%, mostly Andalusians but also some 2% of Minorcans), Genoese and other Italians (19%), Portuguese (11%), Maltese (8%), and Jews (3%). There is a large diversity of other groups such as Moroccans, Indians, French, Austrians, Chinese, Japanese, Polish and Danish.[51]
Which is incredibly high in so a small place, I never said they were majorities. The Jewish component and Maltese is HIGH in a place whose surroudings are so far from Malta or where Jews are so few.

The Lawspeaker
02-20-2012, 06:26 PM
wiki too.



The main ethnic groups, according to the origin of names in the electoral roll, are Britons (27%), Spanish (26%, mostly Andalusians but also some 2% of Minorcans), Genoese and other Italians (19%), Portuguese (11%), Maltese (8%), and Jews (3%). There is a large diversity of other groups such as Moroccans, Indians, French, Austrians, Chinese, Japanese, Polish and Danish.[51]
Which is incredibly high in so a small place, I never said they were majorities. The place is itself a mix of minorities.
Consequently turning Gibraltar a part of Spain would be ludicrous. The Spanish are a minority there... If the Spanish are clever (and they are a clever people) they would be like "ooh fuck this, Brits, we don't want this place back. Make it independent."

Amapola
02-20-2012, 06:29 PM
Consequently turning Gibraltar a part of Spain would be ludicrous. The Spanish are a minority there...

It is problematic because the real people that belonged to the place were expelled, shouldn't we ask themselves too? they probably don't want to move again and leave their new home. But at the same time, the "new" inhabitants of Gibaltar have been living there and being Llanitos or British or whatever for centuries. So... a expulsion or a forcefull expatriation in our democratic mindsets has no place. I don't think there is much to do in Gibraltar, except that they eventually want to become independent. The time for Spain to get Gibraltar back is gone now.

Comte Arnau
02-20-2012, 09:07 PM
Weird, what the hell are they doing there? Feeding the monkeys?

The Portuguese seem to have a thing for living in the tiny states of the Peninsula, be it Gibraltar or Andorra. :p

Treffie
02-20-2012, 09:12 PM
The Portuguese seem to have a thing for living in the tiny states of the Peninsula, be it Gibraltar or Andorra. :p

There's quite a few Portuguese in Jersey and Guernsey too

Damião de Góis
02-20-2012, 09:19 PM
The Portuguese seem to have a thing for living in the tiny states of the Peninsula, be it Gibraltar or Andorra. :p


There's quite a few Portuguese in Jersey and Guernsey too

That's a mistery to me. I have no emmigrants in my family thankfuly, and my family is not rich either so i don't know what's on the mind of an emmigrant to emmigrate, but whatever.

Dead Eye
02-23-2012, 05:22 AM
Its the same with the Falkland Islands in the sense that the poeple who live there are British and wish to remain British.

I don't think anything else needs to be said.

AFC_Lad
02-23-2012, 05:28 AM
I believe it became ours permanently after the treaty of westphalia could be wrong.. but anywho it's ours.. next question.

Sikeliot
02-23-2012, 05:46 AM
Stay British, I say.