Who is the lightest the Northern Italians,the Croats or the southern French

[le penalty]

Southern french:
30578 30579 30580

Northern italian:
30581 30584 30585

Croat:
30586 30587 30588

[Sikeliot]

Northern Italians in my opinion, then Croats. Southern French are darkest.

[Twistedmind]

Croats

[Vukodav]

Croats by far.

[Sikeliot]

I just know Southern French are the darkest.

[Insuperable]

Depends which Croats especially if you include wogs from B&H.

[Lemon Kush]

Northern Italians.

Northern Italians resemble Central Europeans the most, while Croats look Balkan and Southern French look Mediterranean. Central Europeans have the lightest pigmentation of these three groups.

[SkyBurn]

Northern Italians.

Northern Italians resemble Central Europeans the most, while Croats look Balkan and Southern French look Mediterranean. Central Europeans have the lightest pigmentation of these three groups.

I don't think so, IMO croats are the lightest. But nth Italians come in for a close seconds.

[Crn Volk]

Croats

[derLowe]

Croats then in close second the Italians then French.

[guyinsf]

Keep in mind though that southern France has a much bigger immigration population mixed in the the native population than Northern Italy or Croatia and those immigrants tend to be darker than the native French.

[Baldur]

croats.

[Vasconcelos]

Keep in mind though that southern France has a much bigger immigration population mixed in the the native population than Northern Italy or Croatia and those immigrants tend to be darker than the native French.

No one is considering those.

[riverman]

No one is considering those.

correct.



anyways, croats IMO

[Madonna]

Croats then in close second the Italians then French.

I agree

[Dominika]

1. Croats 2. Italians 3. French

[baraSYR]

Croats like other slavs are pale.

[le penalty]

Northern italy has many southern migrants too (sicilian,calabrese...). For me south-eastern french are lighter than northern italian but not south western.

South-western french
30598
South eastern french
30599

[sgillespie]

disagree, whether I don't know who the darkest or lightest is, I am sure that northern Italians (I mean the part of Italy from Bologna and up, that is also a minor part of Italy's territory) are not the lightest, you can find very light individuals on a single basis (and kinda rarely) but most of the population is brunette, like it should. Check the bolognese Alberto Tomba or the Bergamo (extreme north) Cesare Prandelli, those types are pretty common in northern Italy, of course they are not swarthy like many central and southern italians, but not light either.

[Hevo]

Croats.

[sgillespie]

agree, a lot of southern italians/ north africans, armenians, spaniards and portuguese immigrated there generations ago and they are pretty well blended in the mainstream population that, let me remind you, is made of a northern italian sub-stratum as south east France was Italy once

[Peyrol]

Keep in mind though that southern France has a much bigger immigration population mixed in the the native population than Northern Italy or Croatia and those immigrants tend to be darker than the native French.

Nope.

True northern italians (we) are less than 40-50% of the total northern italian population (27 million people).
The rest are second/third generation southern italians and foreigners (recent immigrants).

[Slycooper]

1.Croats/North Italians.
Southern french.

[Sine Labe]

A couple of my cousins came over to Australia recently from the Veneto, they returned from the Australian sun as red as tomato's!

[Smaug]

North Italians, then Croats, then Southern French.

[Bosnjakinja]

^^This

[Anglojew]

Croats. No contest.

[Ades]

Northern Italians and Croats equally light, followed by southern French.

[Damião de Góis]

agree, a lot of southern italians/ north africans, armenians, spaniards and portuguese immigrated there generations ago and they are pretty well blended in the mainstream population that, let me remind you, is made of a northern italian sub-stratum as south east France was Italy once

Lots of portuguese migrated to Northern Italy? That's news to me. Same goes to spaniards i would say.

[Ibericus]

1. Croatia
2. South France
3. North Italy

[Anthropologique]

I don't believe these photos are all that representative. I've never been to Croatia but I know France well and have been to N. Italy 4-5 times.

Lightest are Croats, then S. French, then N. Italian.

[Anthropologique]

Northern italy has many southern migrants too (sicilian,calabrese...). For me south-eastern french are lighter than northern italian but not south western.

South-western french
30598
South eastern french
30599

It depends where you go in south-west France. Much of Aquitaine is fair - been there enough. Fairer than much of N. Italy.

[guyinsf]

Nope.

True northern italians (we) are less than 40-50% of the total northern italian population (27 million people).
The rest are second/third generation southern italians and foreigners (recent immigrants).

I still think southern france is more diverse with foreign blood in the population than northern italy by a long shot!

[le penalty]

It depends where you go in south-west France. Much of Aquitaine is fair - been there enough. Fairer than much of N. Italy.

Aquitaine:
30639 30640 30641

[Luchon20102012]

Northern italians, because they are ethnic central europeans, but Croats are pretty close, altough with slavic influence. Southern french are the darkest of the three.

[Sikeliot]

Northern Italians are the lightest Southern Europeans.

[Prince Carlo]

North Croatia.
South France.
North Italy.
Other parts of Croatia.

[Vasconcelos]

South French are still the coolest of the three :cool:

[Austo]

I think Croats.

I think dark croats are moslty just in Dalmatia.

[sgillespie]

[QUOTE=Luchon20102012;1455636]Northern italians, because they are ethnic central europeans, but Croats are pretty close, altough with slavic influence. Southern french are the darkest of the three.[/QUOTE


If North Italy is ceentral Europe (mind North Italy starts at 44' until 46'30" parallel of latitude) that means that south of France is central Europe as well as Croatia Serbia and the whole of Romania (Romania starts at 44' to go up at almost 49' parallel of latitude), check Europe's map. Mind also that the Alps have been a big divide between Europe and Italy that made North of Italy different anthropologically , culturally and climatically from Central Europe. Same with the Appenines that created a big divide between northern Italians and the populations south of it starting with Tuscany.

[Luchon20102012]

[QUOTE=Luchon20102012;1455636]Northern italians, because they are ethnic central europeans, but Croats are pretty close, altough with slavic influence. Southern french are the darkest of the three.[/QUOTE


If North Italy is ceentral Europe (mind North Italy starts at 44' until 46'30" parallel of latitude) that means that south of France is central Europe as well as Croatia Serbia and the whole of Romania (Romania starts at 44' to go up at almost 49' parallel of latitude), check Europe's map. Mind also that the Alps have been a big divide between Europe and Italy that made North of Italy different anthropologically , culturally and climatically from Central Europe. Same with the Appenines that created a big divide between northern Italians and the populations south of it starting with Tuscany.

Latitudinally speaking, southern france is more southern european than northern italy, almost whole Romania would be considered central europe, croatia and northern serbia. I was talking about racially or ethnically, since times of italics and celtics, both central european people that went down the alps and invaded northern and central parts of italy. In North of Rome you are going to see some changes in the phenotype.

[Ibericus]

Latitudinally speaking, southern france is more southern european than northern italy, almost whole Romania would be considered central europe, croatia and northern serbia. I was talking about racially or ethnically, since times of italics and celtics, both central european people that went down the alps and invaded northern and central parts of italy. In North of Rome you are going to see some changes in the phenotype.
North Italians, at least those from Lombardy, are genetically less north-european than Spaniards...

[Lábaru]

North Italians, at least those from Lombardy, are genetically less north-european than Spaniards...

But genetics says nothing, what matters is the latitude, the darkest are Australians.

[Anthropologique]

I still think southern france is more diverse with foreign blood in the population than northern italy by a long shot!

We are talking about NATIVES. Immigrants obviously do not count.

[Anthropologique]

[QUOTE=Luchon20102012;1455636]Northern italians, because they are ethnic central europeans, but Croats are pretty close, altough with slavic influence. Southern french are the darkest of the three.[/QUOTE


If North Italy is ceentral Europe (mind North Italy starts at 44' until 46'30" parallel of latitude) that means that south of France is central Europe as well as Croatia Serbia and the whole of Romania (Romania starts at 44' to go up at almost 49' parallel of latitude), check Europe's map. Mind also that the Alps have been a big divide between Europe and Italy that made North of Italy different anthropologically , culturally and climatically from Central Europe. Same with the Appenines that created a big divide between northern Italians and the populations south of it starting with Tuscany.

What do the autosomal DNA statistics say? Southern French have consiserably higher levels of Northern and Western autosomes than N. Italians. Environment is only one part of genetic adaptation.

[Baluarte]

Judging from those pictures I agree with the Croat/N.Italy/S.France order.

But I don't know much about genetics.

Btw Sike..I know understand why people guess me often as South French, thanks for the visual material.

[Anthropologique]

[QUOTE=sgillespie;1455698]

Latitudinally speaking, southern france is more southern european than northern italy, almost whole Romania would be considered central europe, croatia and northern serbia. I was talking about racially or ethnically, since times of italics and celtics, both central european people that went down the alps and invaded northern and central parts of italy. In North of Rome you are going to see some changes in the phenotype.

It makes for only a minor difference. The S. French are more northern and western in genetic input and N. Italy has much greater MENA and West Asian frequencies than the S. French.

[Anthropologique]

Interesting that the photos posted come from a web site run by a self-hating S. Western Frenchman...

[Übermensch]

Ligurians are similar to Occitans pigmentation-wise, but the other areas of Southern France are lightest than most of Northen Italy i guess,i guess the lightest would be North Croatians...

[Anthropologique]

Ligurians are similar to Occitans pigmentation-wise, but the other areas of Southern France are lightest than most of Northen Italy i guess,i guess the lightest would be North Croatians...

Quite agree. That's why I stated that the photos shown are not representative of each population segment.

[Baluarte]

Quite agree. That's why I stated that the photos shown are not representative of each population segment.

Could you post representative pictures of South French please Anthropologique?

Provence/Pays Basque/Bouches du Rhône...all of them ;)

[Anthropologique]

North Italians, at least those from Lombardy, are genetically less north-european than Spaniards...

They are less N. Euro than all Iberians and, of course, the French as well.

[Anthropologique]

Could you post representative pictures of South French please Anthropologique?

Provence/Pays Basque/Bouches du Rhône...all of them ;)

Sure thing. Group pictures for the most part coming up.

[Anthropologique]

Could you post representative pictures of South French please Anthropologique?

Provence/Pays Basque/Bouches du Rhône...all of them ;)

Many of these are from Provence and Rhone. I can post S. France pics all day long. BTW, what makes you think you look S. French? I was born in Brittany but know S. France rather well and you don't look like the natives there.

[Baluarte]

Many of these are from Provence and Rhone. I can post S. France pics all day long. BTW, what makes you think you look S. French? I was born in Brittany but know S. France rather well and you don't look like the natives there.

I've never believed it myself, people here do.
Although in all honesty I don't stand out much in France. Just not the place where I fit the best

[Anthropologique]

A few more S. French pics.

[Luchon20102012]

[QUOTE=Luchon20102012;1456088]

It makes for only a minor difference. The S. French are more northern and western in genetic input and N. Italy has much greater MENA and West Asian frequencies than the S. French.

Probably you are right, because many northern italians are not full natives or even part natives. I was pointing something out, because according to sgillespie, race is mainly determined for the geography or climate, and even going to that matter, northern italy wasn´t darker than southern france, nor people living in those places. Northern italy has as main haplogroups R1b, J2, J1 and I1, so its still the italic and celtic haplogroups the dominant in that place.

[Anthropologique]

[QUOTE=Anthropologique;1457055]

Probably you are right, because many northern italians are not full natives or even part natives. I was pointing something out, because according to sgillespie, race is mainly determined for the geography or climate, and even going to that matter, northern italy wasn´t darker than southern france, nor people living in those places. Northern italy has as main haplogroups R1b, J2, J1 and I1, so its still the italic and celtic haplogroups the dominant in that place.

There are no such things as Italic or Celtic haplogroups. You've been frequenting too many bogus anthro sites. Take a course on population genetics and learn something. One again, haplogroups are used to determine ancient migrations. They have practically no impact on a person's genome. Only autosomal DNA provides one's full heritage.

People who are tested in autosomal genetic studies have to show they are native going back generations. Bottom line - and I don't even know why this should mean anything to anybody with a reasonable maturity level - it is autosomally impossible for N. Italians to be lighter overall than S. French.

[Peyrol]

There is almost no difference between (pure) provençals and piemonteises from North-Western Italy.

[Anthropologique]

There is almost no difference between (pure) provençals and piemonteises from North-Western Italy.

That I can agree on.

[Peyrol]

That I can agree on.

...not for nothing...

http://www.mondivers.cat/IMG/naciopedia/mapa-occitania.jpg

http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/data/images/1011221-Les_%C3%89tats_de_la_maison_de_Savoie_XIIIe-XVIe__si%C3%A8cle.jpg

[Lábaru]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAS0_LS0knQ

And dark, at least for France.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=logY8JNW3Fo

[Luchon20102012]

[QUOTE=Luchon20102012;1457878]

There are no such things as Italic or Celtic haplogroups. You've been frequenting too many bogus anthro sites. Take a course on population genetics and learn something. One again, haplogroups are used to determine ancient migrations. They have practically no impact on a person's genome. Only autosomal DNA provides one's full heritage.

People who are tested in autosomal genetic studies have to show they are native going back generations. Bottom line - and I don't even know why this should mean anything to anybody with a reasonable maturity level - it is autosomally impossible for N. Italians to be lighter overall than S. French.

Migrations determine phenotypes in people, so it´s accurate when for example one compare southern italy with northern italy:hat´s why british look celtic, because they have the highest haplogroup R1b, but also the northern italians, french and most iberians. Autosomal dna is more accurate because it traces better the ancestry, but northern italians would show higher level of mixing than in 500, 400, 300, 200 and even 50 years ago, because the migrations from another regions are increasing.

[Anthropologique]

[QUOTE=Anthropologique;1458135]

Migrations determine phenotypes in people, so it´s accurate when for example one compare southern italy with northern italy:hat´s why british look celtic, because they have the highest haplogroup R1b, but also the northern italians, french and most iberians. Autosomal dna is more accurate because it traces better the ancestry, but northern italians would show higher level of mixing than in 500, 400, 300, 200 and even 50 years ago, because the migrations from another regions are increasing.

Ancient migrations don't determine phenotype. However, more recent ones influence but do not determine overall physical appearance in most people - DNA functions randomly. The whole of one's genome is the key to phenotype. Just because your earliest ancestors were Y-DNA J doesn't mean you are going to look Middle Eastern. However, if your grandmother was a Saudi, you will very likely show some Arabid traits.

By the way, Celts were / are pretty diverse people, so there is no specific "Celtic look." Why people keep saying X or Y looks Celtic, I'll never know.

[Anthropologique]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAS0_LS0knQ

And dark, at least for France.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=logY8JNW3Fo

I'd pop both of them!:icon_cheesygrin:

[Anthropologique]

...not for nothing...

http://www.mondivers.cat/IMG/naciopedia/mapa-occitania.jpg

http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/data/images/1011221-Les_%C3%89tats_de_la_maison_de_Savoie_XIIIe-XVIe__si%C3%A8cle.jpg

Indeed...

[riverman]

This comparison is wrong because French can be light or dark in a different way from croats etc. It's apples & oranges

[Anthropologique]

This comparison is wrong because French can be light or dark in a different way from croats etc. It's apples & oranges

Of course. I was born in Brittany and we have significant variation in pigmentation. A fair percentage of Bretons look Irish or Brit - but with plenty of pigmentation variance - others more SW Euro (S. France, Spain, Portugal) and a small percentage might even fit in North or Central Italy.

[Prince Carlo]

According to Hearus Moroccans are lighter than all of them.

[Anthropologique]

^^

Of course, Haerus is mental.

[Septentrion]

According to these specific pictures, Northern Italy and Croatia are only slightly lighter than pictures taken from France. However some pictures taken about the french are not ethnic french people rather Algerian/Moroccan, thus it would be hard to judge. In my personal experience, ethnic Southern French are lighter than Southern Italians/Croats.

[Luchon20102012]

Ligurians are similar to Occitans pigmentation-wise, but the other areas of Southern France are lightest than most of Northen Italy i guess,i guess the lightest would be North Croatians...

Ligurians are similat to Occitans, i agree. Nevertheless, piedmont, lombardy, friuli or veneto people are probably lighter than any southern french region, not counting the inmigrants in N. Italy obviously.

[Anthropologique]

Ligurians are similat to Occitans, i agree. Nevertheless, piedmont, lombardy, friuli or veneto people are probably lighter than any southern french region, not counting the inmigrants in N. Italy obviously.

It's autosomally impossible. On average, southern French are lighter than N. Italians. Even Italians who are honest will tell you that.

[Luchon20102012]

It's autosomally impossible. On average, southern French are lighter than N. Italians. Even Italians who are honest will tell you that.

Autosomal dna (new tool) tracks your recent ancestry, if someone is 50% southern italian and 50% southern german, he could be part west asian, part north african and part central european. I couldn´t assure if autosomally-speaking northern italians (ethnic ones) are lighter than southern french (what regions were tested and the people size of that dna autosomal test), but not the opposite either. But if you base your statement because of the mass inmigration in the north, it could be true, just as in average, one northern italian has probably at least one southern italian grandparent (who had some chances to have outside of europe ancestry) or even a non european relative.

Phenotypically speaking, northern italians look lighter than southern french overall, but almost negligible, just as the difference between southern french and croatians.

[Prince Carlo]

There are some parts of Northern Italy which are lighter than Southern France, but as whole N.Italy is darker.

[Anthropologique]

There are some parts of Northern Italy which are lighter than Southern France, but as whole N.Italy is darker.

Agree...

[Anthropologique]

Autosomal dna (new tool) tracks your recent ancestry, if someone is 50% southern italian and 50% southern german, he could be part west asian, part north african and part central european. I couldn´t assure if autosomally-speaking northern italians (ethnic ones) are lighter than southern french (what regions were tested and the people size of that dna autosomal test), but not the opposite either. But if you base your statement because of the mass inmigration in the north, it could be true, just as in average, one northern italian has probably at least one southern italian grandparent (who had some chances to have outside of europe ancestry) or even a non european relative.

Phenotypically speaking, northern italians look lighter than southern french overall, but almost negligible, just as the difference between southern french and croatians.

Autosomal analyses FULL heritage... It goes far back.

My statement has nothing to do with immigration, S. Italian or otherwise.

[Luchon20102012]

There are some parts of Northern Italy which are lighter than Southern France, but as whole N.Italy is darker.

I haven´t visited all northern italy, so this may be a possibility.

[riverman]

Am I crazy or are there dark French? Like really dark French?

[Lábaru]

Am I crazy or are there dark French? Like really dark French?

¿?

[riverman]

¿?

Are there dark French, is my question, darker than the average Italian or as dark as dark italians

[Lábaru]

Are there dark French, is my question, darker than the average Italian or as dark as dark italians

Single dark individuals you mean? of course, we are talking about tens of millions of people or more, lots of diversity, you can find dark individuals in Scandinavia also, less often of course.

[riverman]

Single dark individuals you mean? of course, we are talking about tens of millions of people or more, lots of diversity, you can find dark individuals in Scandinavia also, less often of course.

Weird thing is I've seen some threads with south French and almost none of them look very dark, but I've met French(from france) here that were really dark, that's why I asked. Maybe some just tan really easily. off topic but I have a small amount of Gascon ancestry

[Lábaru]

Weird thing is I've seen some threads with south French and almost none of them look very dark, but I've met French(from france) here that were really dark, that's why I asked. Maybe some just tan really easily. off topic but I have a small amount of Gascon ancestry

the dark is relative, this man is a bit dark for a French standar, in Spain/Italy is average.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOgE2aJVMTk

[Lábaru]

We must consider that France has no mountains that separate/isolate from central/North Europe, while Italy yes. That's why the South French genetically have far more genes from Center / North Europeans that North Italians.

[Ibericus]

Some people are overestimating the lightness of North Italians.

[aherne]

This map by Biasutti:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Bvs5B5N7Cmw/UNDL9kr4M6I/AAAAAAAAAXI/aKxUgScLKKs/s1600/BiasuttiMappa.png
shows beyond reasonable doubt that Northern Italians are considerably darker than Southern French or Yugoslavs. I've noticed that as well among Italians living in Istria. Most Croats there have light eyes (blue and green, with a grey minority), their children have light blond hair, whereas in local Italians dark hair is very predominant in children, let alone adults and light eyes (almost all blue) usually come along with brunet features.

This difference goes back to Roman times, when Romans depicted Illyrians and Gauls as blond...

[Scholarios]

I assumed the Croats and I was correct.

[Lemon Kush]

Hmm...

When I said Northern Italians were the lightest compared to Croats and Southern French. I was referring to people from the very Northern part of Italy that was settled by Germanics (Lombards, Ostrogoths, Gauls). So basically only Milan, Turino, Lombardi. I would expect this part of Italy and the people from it to be vastly much more lighter pigmented than people from Central and Southern Italy as well as Croatia and southern France since it's inhabitants are wholly Northwest European (Germanic) descended. Now I don't know what is actually considered Northern Italy in the geographic sense if that's what we're talking about and not the racial and cultural sense that I was thinking of.

[Carlito's Way]

Northern Italians are lighter, there are many towns in Northern Italy filled with light Italians

http://i.imgur.com/w5mv3th.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Y1olJs9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1Zpk4Ao.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fG4E3eU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3tVj49p.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ae4qhEy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WXKgncU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0Glvn8Q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fF9Zr2Z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Pebkk4H.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/S5q9Wkd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/72gEbsr.jpg

[Prince Carlo]

Reading Aherne made me LOL.

[Peyrol]

I repeat again...we (norther italians) are less than 50% of northern italian total population.

[Virtuous]

I repeat again...we (norther italians) are less than 50% of northern italian total population.

MINKIA KE SNOB KE SIETE VuOI DEL NORD.

(scherzo) :P

[Peyrol]

MINKIA KE SNOB KE SIETE VuOI DEL NORD.

(scherzo) :P

Siamo cumenda


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqkqT8-UfV4

[Virtuous]

dei grandi!

[Lemon Kush]

I repeat again...we (norther italians) are less than 50% of northern italian total population.

So what is most of the northern Italian population? Southern, central Italians and other immigrants? Are the "true" northern Italians more characteristically lighter featured and more northern European looking?

[Peyrol]

So what is most of the northern Italian population? Southern, central Italians and other immigrants? Are the "true" northern Italians more characteristically lighter featured and more northern European looking?

The big cities are ''lost''...i live in Torino (Turin) and true piemontese are about 15% of the total population...about 65-70% are second/third generation southern italians (mostly calabrese and sicilians) and the rest are foreigners (arabs and romanian firstly).
Ah, in 2012 35% of childrens under age of 1 were minorities (arabs mostly).

BTW outside the big cities there are a lot of pure blooded northerners...here in Piemont for example the less ''infected'' province is the Cuneo province.

Here a map which show the percentage of non-natives in the single provinces....as you can see, north-west (and also Lombardy) is quite diverse.

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4293/mappamigrazioniinterne.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/mappamigrazioniinterne.jpg/)

[riverman]

^ yikes

[Übermensch]

Hmm...

When I said Northern Italians were the lightest compared to Croats and Southern French. I was referring to people from the very Northern part of Italy that was settled by Germanics (Lombards, Ostrogoths, Gauls). So basically only Milan, Turino, Lombardi. I would expect this part of Italy and the people from it to be vastly much more lighter pigmented than people from Central and Southern Italy as well as Croatia and southern France since it's inhabitants are wholly Northwest European (Germanic) descended. Now I don't know what is actually considered Northern Italy in the geographic sense if that's what we're talking about and not the racial and cultural sense that I was thinking of.

They where of course mixed with the local population, there is surely a germanic imput in Northen Italy but the native gallic-italic strain is still predominant.And being Germanic not always equal to be ''light'',Germans from Saarland are quite dark but they don't have too much non-germanic imput.

[Luchon20102012]

So what is most of the northern Italian population? Southern, central Italians and other immigrants? Are the "true" northern Italians more characteristically lighter featured and more northern European looking?

True northern italians are the true italians.

[Luchon20102012]

They where of course mixed with the local population, there is surely a germanic imput in Northen Italy but the native gallic-italic strain is still predominant.And being Germanic not always equal to be ''light'',Germans from Saarland are quite dark but they don't have too much non-germanic imput.

Indeed, italics and celtics were central european groups and northern italians are primarily with that descent, obviously not the mixed ones.

[Sikeliot]

True northern italians are the true italians.

What makes you say this?

[Luchon20102012]

What makes you say this?

They used to be the less mixed italians. All southern, central and northern regions are italian, but ethnically part of southern ones (calabria, basilicata) were less isolated and mixed with another people (since roman times).

[sgillespie]

What makes you say this?

Ahahahahhahah that' s an absurd Luchon 2012.
First of all Italians are true Italians.
Second Italics are not Central europeans because as the word says "Italics" therefore originary from the Italian peninsula that is definitely southern Europe(is there any land that goes further south than Italy in Europe?)
Third The Italian/Latin culture is born in Rome, so just to follow your reasoning true Italians should be only central Italians
Fourth if you state that Northern Italian are of germanic origin (not true) how can they be true Italians if they are germans.
You may want to check this, go to the "origin" part:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)

[Luchon20102012]

Maybe i expressed wrong.

All italians are italians, but some people in extreme south are ethnically more mixed.

Italics were central european people, that´s a fact, as well as celtics. They went down the alps and were in all italy, but they were more predominant in the north.

Italy is a large country, so they are as south as central geographically.

All are italians, but again, Rome was the capital of the roman empire, hence the predominance of italian culture in rome.

I haven´t never said northern italian are of germanic origin, i said they were of italic and celtic stock, both born from the same indoeuropean group.

[sgillespie]

Maybe i expressed wrong.

All italians are italians, but some people in extreme south are ethnically more mixed.

Italics were central european people, that´s a fact, as well as celtics. They went down the alps and were in all italy, but they were more predominant in the north.

Italy is a large country, so they are as south as central geographically.

All are italians, but again, Rome was the capital of the roman empire, hence the predominance of italian culture in rome.

I haven´t never said northern italian are of germanic origin, i said they were of italic and celtic stock, both born from the same indoeuropean group.

Luchon
I like to be precise, I am a picky person..........don't take it personally........Just for the sake of clarity:
I attached in my previous post a link about the origin of Italics, there is no mention of central Europe there, they hypotize that Italics came through the Balkans.
Italy is fully S.Europe, it goes from 46.5 nort to 35.5 south. If the extreme northern tip of Italy is Central Europe then we have to consider central Europe also: N.Spain, the whole S.France, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, N.Bulgaria. They all lie at the same latitude of N.Italy.
Look the definition of S.Europe from Onu:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

[7eleven]

Croats

[Luchon20102012]

Luchon
I like to be precise, I am a picky person..........don't take it personally........Just for the sake of clarity:
I attached in my previous post a link about the origin of Italics, there is no mention of central Europe there, they hypotize that Italics came through the Balkans.
Italy is fully S.Europe, it goes from 46.5 nort to 35.5 south. If the extreme northern tip of Italy is Central Europe then we have to consider central Europe also: N.Spain, the whole S.France, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, N.Bulgaria. They all lie at the same latitude of N.Italy.
Look the definition of S.Europe from Onu:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

Well, i apreciate you did the research about italics. There is no consensus about italics, but what it´s for sure it that the italic language originated in central europe (beyond the alps), so if the language originated there, why not to assume the logic idea that the people that spoke italic were the first italic tribes?
http://www.protogermanic.com/2011/06/romans-alpine-celts-and-belgae-close.html

Again, southern france is more southern than northern italy, so N.I. could be considered part of central europe and southern france not. Spain is not located in the central part of europe, but in the south west. Only Slovenia, Croatia and parts of Serbia could be considered central europe as well, nor Bulgaria or Bosnia. But even considering that, the climate is only one factor of adaptation, not a cause of genetics or phenotype, at least not in the short term.

[ChocolateFace]

Croats then in close second the Italians then French.

this

[sgillespie]

Well, i apreciate you did the research about italics. There is no consensus about italics, but what it´s for sure it that the italic language originated in central europe (beyond the alps), so if the language originated there, why not to assume the logic idea that the people that spoke italic were the first italic tribes?
http://www.protogermanic.com/2011/06/romans-alpine-celts-and-belgae-close.html

Again, southern france is more southern than northern italy, so N.I. could be considered part of central europe and southern france not. Spain is not located in the central part of europe, but in the south west. Only Slovenia, Croatia and parts of Serbia could be considered central europe as well, nor Bulgaria or Bosnia. But even considering that, the climate is only one factor of adaptation, not a cause of genetics or phenotype, at least not in the short term.

I go by the parallels, N.Italy is between 44' and 46'30", right Spain is out, but Southern France is at the same latitude, most of Serbia and most of Croatia are N of 44' so is Slovenia and all of Romania is N of 44'.
Climate is not a factor indeed as Bulgaria, Serbia and Croatia (except for the coast)are way colder than N Italy. You can not base your theories on assumptions. Italics are not from central Europe based on history, plus the Italian peninsula was surely not empty when other populations came in...........For example my ancestors, the etruscans, are said to be originary from middle East and that they came to Tuscany and central Italy in 1000 B.C., but surely they did not find an empty land..........
N.Italians (the pure ones) are way darker than Croats (based on several anthropologists accounts, like Coon and based on my observations, Croatia is a land of gigantic, pretty light people), S. French are difficult to classify as it has been a land of mass immigration foerever (much longer before N.Italy) and the mass migration is mostly made of N.Africans plus Italians, Spaniards, Armenians and portuguese that added up to the original sub-stratum of Italian people (Cote d'Azur was Italy until over a century ago) plus a lot of northern french immigrated there. I bet it is almost impossible to find a pure S. french, if found, I bet it is not any darker than N.Italians. I think you have a vision of N.Italians very far from the truth, any honest Italian will admit that N.Italians are brunette and way darker than Croats.

[Prince Carlo]

N.Italians (the pure ones) are way darker than Croats (based on several anthropologists accounts, like Coon and based on my observations, Croatia is a land of gigantic, pretty light people),

Are you talking about Coon the nigger who has only studied a tiny sample of people from Bologna (one of the darkest part of North Italy)?

[le penalty]

I go by the parallels, N.Italy is between 44' and 46'30", right Spain is out, but Southern France is at the same latitude, most of Serbia and most of Croatia are N of 44' so is Slovenia and all of Romania is N of 44'.
Climate is not a factor indeed as Bulgaria, Serbia and Croatia (except for the coast)are way colder than N Italy. You can not base your theories on assumptions. Italics are not from central Europe based on history, plus the Italian peninsula was surely not empty when other populations came in...........For example my ancestors, the etruscans, are said to be originary from middle East and that they came to Tuscany and central Italy in 1000 B.C., but surely they did not find an empty land..........
N.Italians (the pure ones) are way darker than Croats (based on several anthropologists accounts, like Coon and based on my observations, Croatia is a land of gigantic, pretty light people), S. French are difficult to classify as it has been a land of mass immigration foerever (much longer before N.Italy) and the mass migration is mostly made of N.Africans plus Italians, Spaniards, Armenians and portuguese that added up to the original sub-stratum of Italian people (Cote d'Azur was Italy until over a century ago) plus a lot of northern french immigrated there. I bet it is almost impossible to find a pure S. french, if found, I bet it is not any darker than N.Italians. I think you have a vision of N.Italians very far from the truth, any honest Italian will admit that N.Italians are brunette and way darker than Croats.

31018

Of course it is possible but not in area like Marseille

[The Alchemist]

Northern italians can be pretty light in certain zones, but definitely to my eyes they look nothing else than italians, as facial features and body proportions....I can easily tell an italian from a german. Obviously there are exceptions, too.

[Corvus]

Maybe i expressed wrong.

All italians are italians, but some people in extreme south are ethnically more mixed.

Italics were central european people, that´s a fact, as well as celtics. They went down the alps and were in all italy, but they were more predominant in the north.


Italy is a large country, so they are as south as central geographically.

All are italians, but again, Rome was the capital of the roman empire, hence the predominance of italian culture in rome.

I haven´t never said northern italian are of germanic origin, i said they were of italic and celtic stock, both born from the same indoeuropean group.

You are really a funny guy, intresting theories you offer :)

[sgillespie]

Sergi, Livi etc..... I m trying to correct Luchon 2012 vision that is a bit unreal. He is convinced that N.Italians are germanics and look germanics (in several posts he wrote that N Italians and Austrians, Germans etc look exactly the same and we all know it is not true) then we Italians know that N Italians are NOT swarthy as a rule(actually I would dare to say that none is really swarthy in S Europe except some isolated cases) but they are not germans!!!! I don't really know (going back to the thread's topic) who'slighter among the three population, but I really feel (given my personal observations) that Croatian as a whole are much lighter.

[Corvus]

Croats are definitly lightest due to significant Baltid influence, in some regions of Croatia the population is as light as Austrians
Northern Italians and Southern French are roughly on the same level, but both not comparable to Germans,
rather West Austrians and Swiss but on average still a level darker

[Leon_C]

Northern Italians are the heaviest imo, they tend to be taller and bigger on average than southern French people so they probably weigh a bit more, I can't say who the lightest are because I don't know much about croats.

[Luchon20102012]

I go by the parallels, N.Italy is between 44' and 46'30", right Spain is out, but Southern France is at the same latitude, most of Serbia and most of Croatia are N of 44' so is Slovenia and all of Romania is N of 44'.
Climate is not a factor indeed as Bulgaria, Serbia and Croatia (except for the coast)are way colder than N Italy. You can not base your theories on assumptions. Italics are not from central Europe based on history, plus the Italian peninsula was surely not empty when other populations came in...........For example my ancestors, the etruscans, are said to be originary from middle East and that they came to Tuscany and central Italy in 1000 B.C., but surely they did not find an empty land..........
N.Italians (the pure ones) are way darker than Croats (based on several anthropologists accounts, like Coon and based on my observations, Croatia is a land of gigantic, pretty light people), S. French are difficult to classify as it has been a land of mass immigration foerever (much longer before N.Italy) and the mass migration is mostly made of N.Africans plus Italians, Spaniards, Armenians and portuguese that added up to the original sub-stratum of Italian people (Cote d'Azur was Italy until over a century ago) plus a lot of northern french immigrated there. I bet it is almost impossible to find a pure S. french, if found, I bet it is not any darker than N.Italians. I think you have a vision of N.Italians very far from the truth, any honest Italian will admit that N.Italians are brunette and way darker than Croats.

Southern france is a more southern than northern italy, but the difference isn´t that big indeed. Italic as language originated in central europe, as the italo celtic haplogroup is R1b, which is derived from c.e.

No way n. italians are way darker than croats, at most croats would be a bit lighter than ethnic ones. According to Coon (he isn´t the most reliable source, because there are too much assumptions and contradictions), they are almost at the same level (light eyes and pigmentation), so even at that ground, they are on par. I think neither of all users have included non native to classify which people is the lighest, so if we compare ethnic southern french to ethnic northern italian (northern italy has received much migration than france), the advantage would go to italian side. I don´t think i am exagerating anything about northern italians, never said they are scandinavian or british, just that they would probably in the middle of lightness in europe.

[Luchon20102012]

You are really a funny guy, intresting theories you offer :)

Amuse me, what interesting theories i am providing?

[Luchon20102012]

Sergi, Livi etc..... I m trying to correct Luchon 2012 vision that is a bit unreal. He is convinced that N.Italians are germanics and look germanics (in several posts he wrote that N Italians and Austrians, Germans etc look exactly the same and we all know it is not true) then we Italians know that N Italians are NOT swarthy as a rule(actually I would dare to say that none is really swarthy in S Europe except some isolated cases) but they are not germans!!!! I don't really know (going back to the thread's topic) who'slighter among the three population, but I really feel (given my personal observations) that Croatian as a whole are much lighter.

What i have said, it´s that they are close in matter of lightness (pigmentation, phenotypes), but not for that, that they are the same people (germanic), rather similar people (italics and celtics).

Croats are light people, no doubt about that, and they have pretty light zones (on par with swiss or austrians) and french are too, any of those countries are lighter than italy, but only considering northern part of italy, the discussion is pretty open.

[Mediterranean Cowboy]

Some of those French weren't even real French. You need to be careful with the French, as many of them have mixed with the foreigners in their country.

[Corvus]

Amuse me, what interesting theories i am providing?

You are a fierce advocate of the theory that Northern Italians are as light as Austrians or Swiss, which is not the case at all.
Although some individuals could pass, the majority of Italians are more Mediterranian looking.
Dinarid Med or Alpine Med is the standard type in Northern Italy, while it is only marginally occuring in Austria.
Take the skiers for example. You can`t argue that Italian skiers are originally from the South.
You won`t find such types in Austria. So there is a gap.

Stefano Gross:

http://www.sciaremag.it/immagini/gross_adelboden_2012.jpg

Elena Curtoni:

http://www.sciaremag.it/immagini/irene_curtoni_primo_piano.jpg

Alberto Tomba:

http://www.lenovae.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/tomba-alberto.jpg

Giorgio Rocca:

http://www.discoveryalps.it/images/foto/7346.jpg/_full.jpg

Deborah Compagnoni:

http://www.style.it/cont/photogallery/0906/0905/best-party-vernissage-a-venezia.asp46809img1.jpg

[Peyrol]

^

Curtoni, Tomba and Rocca are half southerners.

[Luchon20102012]

You are a fierce advocate of the theory that Northern Italians are as light as Austrians or Swiss, which is not the case at all.
Although some individuals could pass, the majority of Italians are more Mediterranian looking.
Dinarid Med or Alpine Med is the standard type in Northern Italy, while it is only marginally occuring in Austria.
Take the skiers for example. You can`t argue that Italian skiers are originally from the South.
You won`t find such types in Austria. So there is a gap.

Stefano Gross:

http://www.sciaremag.it/immagini/gross_adelboden_2012.jpg

Elena Curtoni:

http://www.sciaremag.it/immagini/irene_curtoni_primo_piano.jpg

Alberto Tomba:

http://www.lenovae.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/tomba-alberto.jpg

Giorgio Rocca:

http://www.discoveryalps.it/images/foto/7346.jpg/_full.jpg

Deborah Compagnoni:

http://www.style.it/cont/photogallery/0906/0905/best-party-vernissage-a-venezia.asp46809img1.jpg

I am convinced not all northern italians look like austrians or swiss, because roughly the 50% of the whole population are not full northern italian. That northern half is the part i consider pretty close in terms of pigmentation, facil features and light eyes (not much hair) to austrians, swiss. As a whole, once again, they are not exactly the same people.

Northern italians are mainly alpinid, dinarics and atlanto meds/atlantids with a lower straint or influence of norid/noric phenotype, so austrians and swiss are that with maybe borreby and faelid phenotype (a real minority in northern italy). Stefano Gross doesn´t look particularly dark, and he isn´t full northern italian (based on the last name). Let´s see another italian skyers, probably the difference is clinical:

Davide Silvestri

31064

Julia Mancuso

31065

Luca Dotto

31066

Giuliano Razzoli

31067

[Hussar]

[QUOTE=sgillespie;1455698]

What do the autosomal DNA statistics say? Southern French have consiserably higher levels of Northern and Western autosomes than N. Italians

Impossible. They're at the same latitude and bordering. Why should they be different ?

[Hussar]

We must consider that France has no mountains that separate/isolate from central/North Europe, while Italy yes. That's why the South French genetically have far more genes from Center / North Europeans that North Italians.

"Far more genes..." ? Exaggeration. Maybe in the NORTH of France is possible (Picardie, Champagne, Franc-comte, Ile de France, etc.). Not in the "midi de France"


When you will post the results of a rational comparison between a (numerically reasonable) set of samples rapresentative of 5 millions of Piedmont/Ligurian inhabitants (thousands of individuals selected genealogically and geographically) and another one rapresentative of 8-9 millions of inhabitants belonging to the Provencal/occitanian continuum............then you will have a basis to continue the debate.

[sgillespie]

^

Curtoni, Tomba and Rocca are half southerners.
Tomba is full N Italian, his look is typical emiliano romagnolo (testa quadra) Rocca I can believe it sounds southern Italian as surname, Curtoni I don't know, the last name is from the extreme north and her look is very N Italian. Gross is not an Italian surname,he must be half german.

[Luchon20102012]

Tomba is full N Italian, his look is typical emiliano romagnolo (testa quadra) Rocca I can believe it sounds southern Italian as surname, Curtoni I don't know, the last name is from the extreme north and her look is very N Italian. Gross is not an Italian surname,he must be half german.

Sorry my friend, but Tomba doesnt look typical in Emilia Romagna at all, even being one of the "darkest" northern italian regions.

31074

Elena Curtoni being very northern italian in the other hand, i consider it a really funny joke.

[Peyrol]

Tomba is full N Italian, his look is typical emiliano romagnolo (testa quadra) Rocca I can believe it sounds southern Italian as surname, Curtoni I don't know, the last name is from the extreme north and her look is very N Italian. Gross is not an Italian surname,he must be half german.

Surnames aren't indicative, btw.

Here is full of people named Ferrero, Accornero, Benso, Pont, Chevron, and other typical piemontese surnames, who are 3/4 sicilians...

[sgillespie]

310783107931080
Sorry my friend, but Tomba doesnt look typical in Emilia Romagna at all, even being one of the "darkest" northern italian regions.

31074

Elena Curtoni being very northern italian in the other hand, i consider it a really funny joke.

You have never been to Emilia Romagna, you are not Italian and you want to teach me, Italian, that have been plenty of time in Emilia how Emilians/Italians look? That's a joke.
Curtoni looks Italian from the extreme north. Get over it Italians are brunette also in the north.
Look at LIgabue (emilian) or Luca Carboni (emilian) or another northern Italian from Liguria, baccini? Are they freaks in their land? Maybe they look super exotic in Croatia, but not in N.Italy, we do not have baltid influence in Italy.

[sgillespie]

Surnames aren't indicative, btw.

Here is full of people named Ferrero, Accornero, Benso, Pont, Chevron, and other typical piemontese surnames, who are 3/4 sicilians...

That's true. But my question is do you know for sure if Tomba has a southern Italian paren t (as well the others you mentioned) or you just assume it? Let me know.

[Insuperable]

310783107931080

You have never been to Emilia Romagna, you are not Italian and you want to teach me, Italian, that have been plenty of time in Emilia how Emilians/Italians look? That's a joke.
Curtoni looks Italian from the extreme north. Get over it Italians are brunette also in the north.
Look at LIgabue (emilian) or Luca Carboni (emilian) or another northern Italian from Liguria, baccini? Are they freaks in their land? Maybe they look super exotic in Croatia, but not in N.Italy, we do not have baltid influence in Italy.

I do not think they would look that exotic

[Prince Carlo]

Peyrol is just joking. LoL at people taking him seriously. BTW it's impossible for Ligurians/Piedmonteses to be as light as S.French. I am sorry for Hussar.

[Hussar]

Peyrol is just joking. LoL at people taking him seriously. BTW it's impossible for Ligurians/Piedmonteses to be as light as S.French. I am sorry for Hussar.

It's not the place to troll, please.

[Peyrol]

That's true. But my question is do you know for sure if Tomba has a southern Italian paren t (as well the others you mentioned) or you just assume it? Let me know.

I remember an old interview (in the '90s if i remember well) when he told this.

[Hussar]

However, imo, the main mistake is to look at photos (often deceiving).

In my life i'v travelled anough...... Croatia would be the first (but absolutely NOT by far.) in the second place come southern France and northern Italy, less or more equivalent. Keep in mind that "equivalent" doesn't means "equal" or "exactly the same" ; i mean that depends on the exact area.


I conclude, trying to give the fairest judment i can, about the "S.France vs N.Italy" debate.

Maybe we should divide northern Italy (almost 30 millions of inhabitants), in 3 parts :


first part 1) : most of Lombardy plus Emilia Romagna. Geographically the padan valley, basin of Po river. It's a temepered rich zone heavily colonized through the millennia. Relatively distant from the Alps, and densely populated. Dynamic industry and turistic business too. Here, the average population could be darker than the average of southern France, and even relatively distinguishable by features. It's the historical core of italic and etruscan colonizatio over the Po river...so, the beginning of the italian continuum, developing through the peninsula.

Second part 2) : Piedmont/Ligury section (plus minor part of Lombardy). It's the Alpine/pre alpine belt on the western side of the chain. Bordering directly with France. Mostly hills and mountains, and an history of somewhat "compressed" and segregated state under the historical leadership of the Savoy dinasty. Here the average population is hardly distinguishable (phenotypically and genotipically) from the ethnic french population over the border. The most ancient sub-stratum (Ibero/ligurian Celt) is clearly in common with Occitania and Catalonia.

Third part 3) : Veneto/SudTyrol/Friuli. It's the eastern block of northern Italy, partially included in the"mittel Europe". Dynamic economy, highly productive and relatively homogeneous block on the border with germanic and slavic civilizations. Here....the average population could be even phenotypically lighter than southern frech average, thanks slow but constant migration flow from central Europe (selected Friulian samples cluster with austrian, according a recent graphic on Eurogenes)


That's the most honest depiction i could produce.

[sgillespie]

However, imo, the main mistake is to look at photos (often deceiving).

In my life i'v travelled anough...... Croatia would be the first (but absolutely NOT by far.) in the second place come southern France and northern Italy, less or more equivalent. Keep in mind that "equivalent" doesn't means "equal" or "exactly the same" ; i mean that depends on the exact area.


I conclude, trying to give the fairest judment i can, about the "S.France vs N.Italy" debate.

Maybe we should divide northern Italy (almost 30 millions of inhabitants), in 3 parts :


first part 1) : most of Lombardy plus Emilia Romagna. Geographically the padan valley, basin of Po river. It's a temepered rich zone heavily colonized through the millennia. Relatively distant from the Alps, and densely populated. Dynamic industry and turistic business too. Here, the average population could be darker than the average of southern France, and even relatively distinguishable by features. It's the historical core of italic and etruscan colonizatio over the Po river...so, the beginning of the italian continuum, developing through the peninsula.

Second part 2) : Piedmont/Ligury section (plus minor part of Lombardy). It's the Alpine/pre alpine belt on the western side of the chain. Bordering directly with France. Mostly hills and mountains, and an history of somewhat "compressed" and segregated state under the historical leadership of the Savoy dinasty. Here the average population is hardly distinguishable (phenotypically and genotipically) from the ethnic french population over the border. The most ancient sub-stratum (Ibero/ligurian Celt) is clearly in common with Occitania and Catalonia.

Third part 3) : Veneto/SudTyrol/Friuli. It's the eastern block of northern Italy, partially included in the"mittel Europe". Dynamic economy, highly productive and relatively homogeneous block on the border with germanic and slavic civilizations. Here....the average population could be even phenotypically lighter than southern frech average, thanks slow but constant migration flow from central Europe (selected Friulian samples cluster with austrian, according a recent graphic on Eurogenes)


That's the most honest depiction i could produce.

That is a GREAT analisys

[Luchon20102012]

However, imo, the main mistake is to look at photos (often deceiving).

In my life i'v travelled anough...... Croatia would be the first (but absolutely NOT by far.) in the second place come southern France and northern Italy, less or more equivalent. Keep in mind that "equivalent" doesn't means "equal" or "exactly the same" ; i mean that depends on the exact area.



I conclude, trying to give the fairest judment i can, about the "S.France vs N.Italy" debate.

Maybe we should divide northern Italy (almost 30 millions of inhabitants), in 3 parts :


first part 1) : most of Lombardy plus Emilia Romagna. Geographically the padan valley, basin of Po river. It's a temepered rich zone heavily colonized through the millennia. Relatively distant from the Alps, and densely populated. Dynamic industry and turistic business too. Here, the average population could be darker than the average of southern France, and even relatively distinguishable by features. It's the historical core of italic and etruscan colonizatio over the Po river...so, the beginning of the italian continuum, developing through the peninsula.

Second part 2) : Piedmont/Ligury section (plus minor part of Lombardy). It's the Alpine/pre alpine belt on the western side of the chain. Bordering directly with France. Mostly hills and mountains, and an history of somewhat "compressed" and segregated state under the historical leadership of the Savoy dinasty. Here the average population is hardly distinguishable (phenotypically and genotipically) from the ethnic french population over the border. The most ancient sub-stratum (Ibero/ligurian Celt) is clearly in common with Occitania and Catalonia.

Third part 3) : Veneto/SudTyrol/Friuli. It's the eastern block of northern Italy, partially included in the"mittel Europe". Dynamic economy, highly productive and relatively homogeneous block on the border with germanic and slavic civilizations. Here....the average population could be even phenotypically lighter than southern frech average, thanks slow but constant migration flow from central Europe (selected Friulian samples cluster with austrian, according a recent graphic on Eurogenes)


That's the most honest depiction i could produce.

Agree with most of all, i think italics were in pretty much anywhere in northern italy with celtics, except liguria. Venetians, Friulians, lombards and piedmontese are to my eyes lighter than southern french, but the differences aren´t so important (maybe with some lighter types in north italy).

Between Croats and Northern Italians, if i would have to choose one, the croats seem probably a bit lighter than northern italians by a tiny difference.

[Peyrol]

Croats have also a very different phenotype from us, BTW...

[sgillespie]

Croats have also a very different phenotype from us, BTW...

Ditto.............Very different, it is not their lighter color that makes them different, but their look, they have a lot of nordic/norics/baltids and other eastern influences.
Btw I don't understand (even though I don't care at all in the end) why this stubborness from our forum colleague Luchon to depict N.Italians as celtic and lighter than S French...........And besides all, S French are almost impossible to be found as the people that live there is the result of a century (the whole XX century) of mixing with N.French, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Armenians and most of all North Africans that started to blend in as far as 4-5 generations ago. I know plenty of S.French people and none of them I know is a pure French, they have some other ethnicity along their genealogic tree, said that those people feel fully french and they are proud of it(rightly so).
Hey I wanted to note how pleasant is this forum in general, not too much trolling, no flames, overall not fixated people and pretty realistic/honest forumists, another world compared to other forums I checked...............

[Peyrol]

^

Di provenzali ''veri'' ormai ne trovi solo nei piccoli villaggi oltreconfine...Tende, Saorge, Briançon, etc...per il resto ti quoto, avendo anche origini di quelle parti.

[sgillespie]

^

Di provenzali ''veri'' ormai ne trovi solo nei piccoli villaggi oltreconfine...Tende, Saorge, Briançon, etc...per il resto ti quoto, avendo anche origini di quelle parti.

Appena torno in Europa quest'estate mi voglio fare un giretto in Provenza, non ci sono mai stato eccetto una volta da bambino, ma solo Nizza e Monaco.
Ciao!

[Luchon20102012]

Ditto.............Very different, it is not their lighter color that makes them different, but their look, they have a lot of nordic/norics/baltids and other eastern influences.
Btw I don't understand (even though I don't care at all in the end) why this stubborness from our forum colleague Luchon to depict N.Italians as celtic and lighter than S French...........And besides all, S French are almost impossible to be found as the people that live there is the result of a century (the whole XX century) of mixing with N.French, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Armenians and most of all North Africans that started to blend in as far as 4-5 generations ago. I know plenty of S.French people and none of them I know is a pure French, they have some other ethnicity along their genealogic tree, said that those people feel fully french and they are proud of it(rightly so).
Hey I wanted to note how pleasant is this forum in general, not too much trolling, no flames, overall not fixated people and pretty realistic/honest forumists, another world compared to other forums I checked...............

I agree they are different in facial features, croats (proper central european) are way much more baltids and nordics, northern italians more atlantid/alpine/dinaric/noric, both fair after all.

The only thing I still dont understand it´s why you try to deny that northern italians are primarily, among others, italo celtic (R1b), because that´s a fact,that information is in any place. I think differences between southern french and northern italians are so few, that it´s not worth the effort to describe them. In the other hand, Northern italians have received a lot of inmigration too, so ethnic population is much less than it was 100 years ago (because of the prosperity of the north).

[dralos]

croats are darker than northitalians,mayby the only croats who are lighter are the ones at the border with slovakia who are often mixed and not really croats
but if you take the dalmatians and all the rest of croats,they surely are darker

[Asgardsrei]

croats who are lighter are the ones at the border with slovakia

:picard2::picard2::picard2:

[Hussar]

:picard2::picard2::picard2:


He meant Slovenia, probably :)

[Amun]

Croats, Northern Italians then Southern French.

[CrystalMaiden]

What sick puppy collects and formats these pictures?

[safinator]

North Italians of course.

[Roy]

Croatians are an interesting bunch of people. In one place you can see very light people and the swarthy ones.

[WOOHP]

Yes i agree. Croats differ alot.

But as a whole: Croats, Souther French then Northern Italy.

Where are the pictures from?

[Ianus]

More or less are the same pigmentation

[riverman]

More or less are the same pigmentation


Croats aren't lighter?

[Wirawan Janpen]

Croatians.

[riverman]

Croatians are an interesting bunch of people. In one place you can see very light people and the swarthy ones.

Pretty sure there are darkish French as well. I guess this OP question is asking about averages. Also, hair/eye color light or dark doesn't always match complexion, anyway.

[Libertas]

More or less are the same pigmentation

I tend to agree, but there is a wide local and individual variability.

[Kalimtari]

Northern Italians should be the most German influenced among these.

[Leopard]

Northern Italians should be the most German influenced among these.

No,Croats (and Slovenes) are most german influenced,they have been part of Habsbourg monarcy for half of millenium.
There is nothing Germanic in Italians,there was already a thread about that.
And geographical proximity dosent allways mean closeness in looks and genetics,just look how how N.Italians and Slovenes cluster far from each other.

[Kalimtari]

No,Croats (and Slovenes) are most german influenced,they have been part of Habsbourg monarcy for half of millenium.
There is nothing Germanic in Italians,there was already a thread about that.
And geographical proximity dosent allways mean closeness in looks and genetics,just look how how N.Italians and Slovenes cluster far from each other.

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt249/NitroSquirril/o_rly_mario_flat.png

The Kingdom of the Lombards (regnum Langobardorum), later the Kingdom of (all) Italy (regnum totius Italiae) was an early medieval state established by the Lombards, a Germanic-speaking people, on the Italian Peninsula between 568–69. The king was traditionally elected by the highest-ranking aristocrats, the dukes, and all attempts to establish a hereditary dynasty failed. The kingdom was divided into a varying number of duchies, ruled by the semi-autonomous dukes, which were in turn subdivided into gastaldates at the level of each city. The capital of the kingdom and centre of its political life was Pavia.

The Lombard invasion was opposed by the Byzantine Empire, which retained control of much of the peninsula until the mid-8th century. The Exarchate of Ravenna and the Duchy of Rome separated the northern duchies, or Langobardia major, from the two large southern duchies of Spoleto and Benevento, which constituted Langobardia minor. Because of this division, the southern duchies were more autonomous than the smaller northern duchies.

The Lombards gradually adopted Roman titles, names and traditions. By the time Paul the Deacon was writing in the late 8th century, the Lombard language, dress and hairstyles had all disappeared.[1] Initially the Lombards were Arians at odds with the Papacy both religiously and politically. By the end of the 7th century, their conversion to Catholicism was all but complete. The conflict with the Papacy continued, and was responsible for their gradual loss of power in the face of the Franks, who conquered the kingdom in 774. Charlemagne, the king of the Franks, adopted the title "King of the Lombards", but never managed to control Benevento. A reduced regnum Italiae, a heritage of the Lombards, continued in existence for centuries. The so-called Iron Crown of Lombardy, which may have originated in Lombard Italy as early as the 7th century, continued to crown Kings of Italy down to Napoleon Bonaparte.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Lombards


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Aistulf%27s_Italy-en.png


http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/700/entity_792.jpg

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/willow/holy-roman-empire2.gif

http://www.mmdtkw.org/MedRom0215Lombards.jpg

http://www.historyguy.com/Charlemagne_Empire_Map.jpg


Want more, signore? :D

[Prince Carlo]

No,Croats (and Slovenes) are most german influenced,

No they are much more Slavic influenced than North Italians. There is very little Germanic influence in Slovenia and especially in Croatia.


they have been part of Habsbourg monarcy for half of millenium.

:D

Some parts of Italy have been under various types of Germanic dominations from the fall of the Roman Empire to 19 century. LOL.

[Leopard]

No they are much more Slavic influenced than North Italians. There is very little Germanic influence in Slovenia and especially in Croatia.



:D

They arent "slavic influenced",they are slavs themselves.


Some parts of Italy have been under various types of Germanic dominations from the fall of the Roman Empire to 19 century. LOL.

German influence was stronger in the areas of Habsburg monarchy than in most of Northern Italy.
There were hundreds of thousands ethnic Germans in Slovenia,Croatia and Vojvodina.
Entire cities were German speaking,or even majority German not so long ago.

[Luchon20102012]

No,Croats (and Slovenes) are most german influenced,they have been part of Habsbourg monarcy for half of millenium.
There is nothing Germanic in Italians,there was already a thread about that.
And geographical proximity dosent allways mean closeness in looks and genetics,just look how how N.Italians and Slovenes cluster far from each other.

Indeed, croatians are clearly more germanic than northern italians (they for sure have no more than 5% of germanic influence, being mainly of italic and celtic stock), and i think they would be the lighest out of the three groups, northern italians behind and then the southern french.

[Prince Carlo]

This recent study says that 45% of Slovenians have blue eyes.

https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGIQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhrcak.srce.hr%2Ffile%2F160094&ei=iOadUoqgGui_ygPqwoDYBA&usg=AFQjCNHX6mFTcP9MjhKJnfjRU3Ldmt2HWg


Indeed, croatians are clearly more germanic than northern italians (they for sure have no more than 5% of germanic influence, being mainly of italic and celtic stock), and i think they would be the lighest out of the three groups, northern italians behind and then the southern french.

It depends on which part of Croatia. Some part of are like Slovenia, others are like Serbia and Montenegro.

[Kastrioti1443]

North Croatia.
South France.
North Italy.
Other parts of Croatia.

+1 and reverse north italy

[caviezel]

You are a fierce advocate of the theory that Northern Italians are as light as Austrians or Swiss, which is not the case at all.
Although some individuals could pass, the majority of Italians are more Mediterranian looking.
Dinarid Med or Alpine Med is the standard type in Northern Italy, while it is only marginally occuring in Austria.
Take the skiers for example. You can`t argue that Italian skiers are originally from the South.
You won`t find such types in Austria. So there is a gap.

Stefano Gross:

http://www.sciaremag.it/immagini/gross_adelboden_2012.jpg

Elena Curtoni:

http://www.sciaremag.it/immagini/irene_curtoni_primo_piano.jpg

Alberto Tomba:

http://www.lenovae.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/tomba-alberto.jpg

Giorgio Rocca:

http://www.discoveryalps.it/images/foto/7346.jpg/_full.jpg

Deborah Compagnoni:

http://www.style.it/cont/photogallery/0906/0905/best-party-vernissage-a-venezia.asp46809img1.jpg
Siegfried Nagl from Graz is not amused

http://static1.kleinezeitung.at/system/galleries_520x335/upload/2/2/0/2103952/726_mur-kraftwerk_scheriau_.jpg

[Kalimtari]

This recent study says that 45% of Slovenians have blue eyes.

https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGIQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhrcak.srce.hr%2Ffile%2F160094&ei=iOadUoqgGui_ygPqwoDYBA&usg=AFQjCNHX6mFTcP9MjhKJnfjRU3Ldmt2HWg



It depends on which part of Croatia. Some part of are like Slovenia, others are like Serbia and Montenegro.

The study population comprised 105 unrelated Slovenian
volunteers

[Luchon20102012]

This recent study says that 45% of Slovenians have blue eyes.

https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGIQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhrcak.srce.hr%2Ffile%2F160094&ei=iOadUoqgGui_ygPqwoDYBA&usg=AFQjCNHX6mFTcP9MjhKJnfjRU3Ldmt2HWg



It depends on which part of Croatia. Some part of are like Slovenia, others are like Serbia and Montenegro.

I was referring to the places that border slovenia. Those croatians resemble austrians or southern germans with a slavic influence.

[Anthropologique]

Finns. Another moron thread.

[Bloody]

From lightest to darkest...
1) Croats
2) Southern French
3) Northern Italians

[Smaug]

North Italians.

[Bloody]

North Italians.

Are you being serious? Croatians are definitely lighter than the other two, and between northern italians and southern french the edge deinitely goes for the later..

[Trebal]

On these images Croats are the lightest

[Smaug]

Are you being serious? Croatians are definitely lighter than the other two, and between northern italians and southern french the edge deinitely goes for the later..

I disagree, as simple as that.

[archangel]

North italians imho

[Insuperable]

Southern French>Northern Italians>Croats

[archangel]

Southern French>Northern Italians>Croats

good you accept you balkanians are darkest:cool:

[dawson]

Croats

[SupaThug]

Croats!

[Longobarda]

Croats are definitly lightest due to significant Baltid influence, in some regions of Croatia the population is as light as Austrians
Northern Italians and Southern French are roughly on the same level, but both not comparable to Germans,
rather West Austrians and Swiss but on average still a level darker

Austrians light? Some are, many are not (talking about hair)-

By the way, I've seen the darkest skins ever in Tyrol. Not all Tyrol but for sure the Sesern Alp has very dark people. I wonder why

[Xacal]

Northern Italians

[JMack]

Northern Italians.

[Kouros]

How many of the french are ethnic french and not descendant of North Africans?

Based on the pics: North Italy > Croats > Southern French

If I answered without seeing those pics: Southern French > Croats = North Italians

[JMack]

How many of the french are ethnic french and not descendant of North Africans?


I would say most if not all are really French. The lightness of the Southern French is overrated.

[Kouros]

I would say most if not all are really French. The lightness of the Southern French is overrated.

big if true

https://i.imgur.com/AftCmIe.png

I think you guys are almost equal though but you are right that Venetians can look even more Germanic then Swiss people

[Cristiano viejo]

Frenchies.

[Regnera]

In the pictures you've post,I'd say Croats
BTW,the northern Italian woman on the first row looks like Britney Spears
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30584&d=1363727156

[tipirneni]

North Italy