Would a free Kurdistan not be to the benefit of Turkey?

[Loki]

I mean, it could be a win-win situation, no?

I'm going to add a poll.

[StonyArabia]

It's very difficult question to answer, since Kurds have been known to alley with any outside power to further their interest, this could threaten Turkish integrity and create a unstable situation. For example Russia or China might use Kurdistan against Turkey, or even the U.S and so on. Many Kurds want to be part of the Turkish republic but keep to their unique cultural and ethnic identity, since they know it's beneficial to be part of Turkey than it's to be independent.

[Anglojew]

The Turks will lose territory and influence. Kurdistan would be a major regional power allied to Israel. The balance of power in the region would shift yet again.

[legolasbozo]

The Turks will lose territory and influence. Kurdistan would be a major regional power allied to Israel. The balance of power in the region would shift yet again.

Tayyip reached an aggrement with Pkk and Abdullah Ocalan. There were some secret negotiations and it was lasted, 2 days before, at the Nevruz celebrations in Diyarbakir, Abdullah Ocalan declared a peace and ordered Pkk militas to out of border. Eventually Tayyip lost nationalist-conservative voters sympathy. But i don't think he would be affected so much, because even he lost right wing voters, he would gain pkk supporters vote on the west. To re-gain his rating there must be illusions to impress right wing voters and islamists. he made another move, probably Tayyip kissed USA ass and US. pushed israel to apologized him and Turkey because there is no reason to netenyahu's apologize. Why now? how could this happen easily? İ have two estimation. Either israel afraid of new Turkey which shut down all interior problems and after termination of Pkk Turkey would be biggest actor in middle east and north iraq oils or İsrael just questioned themself, they thought "if they can made a negotiation with their most hatred enemy, why shouldn't we?" and so they give up their hostile attitudes.

[Anglojew]

Tayyip reached an aggrement with Pkk and Abdullah Ocalan. There were some secret negotiations and it was lasted, 2 days before, at the Nevruz celebrations in Diyarbakir, Abdullah Ocalan declared a peace and ordered Pkk militas to out of border. Eventually Tayyip lost nationalist-conservative voters sympathy. But i don't think he would be affected so much, because even he lost right wing voters, he would gain pkk supporters vote on the west. To re-gain his rating there must be illusions to impress right wing voters and islamists. he made another move, probably Tayyip kissed USA ass and US. pushed israel to apologized him and Turkey because there is no reason to netenyahu's apologize. Why now? how could this happen easily? İ have two estimation. Either israel afraid of new Turkey which shut down all interior problems and after termination of Pkk Turkey would be biggest actor in middle east and north iraq oils or İsrael just questioned themself, they thought "if they can made a negotiation with their most hatred enemy, why shouldn't we?" and so they give up their hostile attitudes.

Hard to say. It is strange timing for the apology maybe because or the Obama visit?

[legolasbozo]

Hard to say. It is strange timing for the apology maybe because or the Obama visit?

Yes but all happened step by step. First negotiations started, after some progress Recep Tayyip went to Holland and Denmark (to send leaders of Pkk to those countries i guess) and suddenly Abdullah Ocalana declarated peace, and then Netenyahu apologized. Maybe there is a bit interference of Obama, but not a whole.

[Queen B]

Ι don't see how and why Turkey should agree to give land to Kurds. I think no country in the world would want to lose lands.
What would benefit both sides, and should happen from the start, is to give Kurds the rights they deserve. They are an ethnic minority and they are not recognised.

[Hevo]

Yes, they deserve a country like other nations do. North Iraq could be a good start.:)

[Scholarios]

Unless you count a potentially lasting-peace and respect and clout from peaceful nations, then no.

[denz]

The Turks will lose territory and influence. Kurdistan would be a major regional power allied to Israel. The balance of power in the region would shift yet again.

No, the talks is about expansion might be a federation including "Misak-i Milli" border ...

http://i.milliyet.com.tr/YeniAnaResim/2013/03/22/genisleme-mi-dayanisma-mi--3132770.Jpeg

[Hoca]

Yes, they deserve a country like other nations do. North Iraq could be a good start.:)

You should give a part of your country to the Kurds then :)

You didn't spill blood for your country any way. It was just handed to you. So you don't understand the value.

[Hevo]

You should give a part of your country to the Kurds then :)

You didn't spill blood for your country any way. It was just handed to you. So you don't understand the value.

Why should i? They are not even majority here and it's not their ethnic lands while North Iraq is. They don't have a country unlike many nations do. It's fair to me.

What do you mean i didn't spill blood for my country? How is this relevant anyway?:laugh:

[denz]

It can be seen even WWII that most of the borders are changed without even strong resist. Generally, if it is created on the table, can be also changed on the table. But non of our border was drawn without war...

[Hoca]

Why should i? They are not even majority here and it's not their ethnic lands while North Iraq is. They don't have a country unlike many nations do. It's fair to me.



Turkey is not their ethnic land either. Iraq is their ethnic land of the Kurds. So I wouldn't mind if they want to establish a Kurdistan there. It has its benefits. Turkey can dumb all the PKK supports there :) (the ones that didn't leave Turkey)


What do you mean i didn't spill blood for my country? How is this relevant anyway?:laugh:
If Americans didn't come to save you, you wouldn't have a country. So you don't know how it is to earn a country. Maybe the minorities in the Netherlands should also have their ethnic states. Afterall, after couple of generations they will also become locals..

[denz]

No, the talks is about expansion might be a federation including "Misak-i Milli" border ...

http://i.milliyet.com.tr/YeniAnaResim/2013/03/22/genisleme-mi-dayanisma-mi--3132770.Jpeg

Greeks and bulgars might be angry about the map but anyway ...

[Hevo]

Turkey is not their ethnic land either. Iraq is their ethnic land of the Kurds. So I wouldn't mind if they want to establish a Kurdistan there. It has its benefits. Turkey can dumb all the PKK supports there :) (the ones that didn't leave Turkey)


That's an another discussion but i am glad that you agree with me that North Iraq is a good start. Thank you Hoca.



If Americans didn't come to save you, you wouldn't have a country. So you don't know how it is to earn a country. Maybe the minorities in the Netherlands should also have their ethnic states. Afterall, after couple of generations they will also become locals..

Actually, the Canadians,Brits, Americans and Dutch volunteers liberated the Netherlands together.
Yeah man, my ancestors were just some drinking beer and they wait until a few people gave them the Dutch Republic so they could live there without bloodshed or anything else.:laugh: :laugh: Man, you are either ignorant or just a troll.

[Hoca]

Actually, the Canadians,Brits, Americans and Dutch volunteers liberated the Netherlands together.
Yeah man, my ancestors were just some drinking beer and they wait until a few people gave them the Dutch Republic so they could live there without bloodshed or anything else.:laugh: :laugh: Man, you are either ignorant or just a troll.
Dutch volunteers? For which army? For the Waffen SS, not for liberation of the Netherlands.

Dutch volunteers for the liberation of the Netherlands were only a handful. Not worthy of mentioning. Maybe it is time to study your own history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23rd_SS_Volunteer_Panzer_Grenadier_Division_Nederl and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederlandsche_SS

[Hevo]

Dutch volunteers? For which army? For the Waffen SS, not for liberation of the Netherlands.

Dutch volunteers for the liberation of the Netherlands were only a handful. Not worthy of mentioning. Maybe it is time to study your own history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Motorized_Infantry_Brigade

Here you go.

[adsız]

No, the talks is about expansion might be a federation including "Misak-i Milli" border ...

http://i.milliyet.com.tr/YeniAnaResim/2013/03/22/genisleme-mi-dayanisma-mi--3132770.Jpeg

Better one:

http://i45.tinypic.com/taoj84.jpg

[Hoca]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Motorized_Infantry_Brigade

Here you go.

I know this is a sensitive issue for you so I won't continue but Dutch resistance in the Netherlands was not big. They conquered Netherlands within couple of hours so to say and during the occupation, resistance was marginal. Actually there were a lot of Dutch who joined the ranks of the Nazi army and collaborated with the persecuted of Jews.

[Hevo]

I know this is a sensitive issue for you so I won't continue

Looks like you are the one who is butthurt after my post that Kurds deserve a country.:rolleyes: You won't continue with ignorant crap? Good. The rest of your post is very ignorant and ironic, since i showed the fact that there were atleast 1500 dutch volunteers while you claim that there were only a handfull volunteers. Anyway since this is very irrelevant,let's go ontopic shall we?

[Hoca]

The rest of your post is very ignorant and ironic, since i showed the fact that there were atleast 1500 dutch volunteers while you claim that there were only a handfull volunteers.
No, you said Dutch fought for their country. That is not true. I'm just correcting you. Müller (2007) estimates 40.000 Dutch volunteers in the Waffen-SS 1939-45. 1500 Dutch volunteers for liberation is indeed just a handful as I expected. I don't want to repeat myself but you got my point.

[Hevo]

No, you said Dutch fought for their country. That is not true. I'm just correcting you. Müller (2007) estimates 40.000 Dutch volunteers in the Waffen-SS 1939-45.

Ofcourse it's true that the Dutch fought for their country. They were volunteers. You cleary didn't even read the links.... I am correcting you actually, like other countries didn't had volunteers in the Waffen-SS it's irrelevant. Where did i deny that there were no Dutch people in the Waffen SS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Motorized_Infantry_Brigade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garderegiment_Fuseliers_Prinses_Irene

[legolasbozo]

No, the talks is about expansion might be a federation including "Misak-i Milli" border ...

http://i.milliyet.com.tr/YeniAnaResim/2013/03/22/genisleme-mi-dayanisma-mi--3132770.Jpeg

i don't see any necessity for bulgary or Greece soil, that would be unfair though. Because they are doing well. but musul and kerkuk are an obligation for kurds. Because there is an conflict between shia arabs and sunni kurds, so the best option would be attached themselves to Turkey, they want it as well. Thus they can be a part of strong and in some aspect European country. Everybody knows that Turkey is a lightyear away around middle east in sport, culture, politic industrial, social standarts etc.

[Linet]

yeah yeah....come and get them http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/quarrel/m1328.gif

[denz]

yeah yeah....come and get them http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/quarrel/m1328.gif

Why, hellenic misak-i milli :) just combination, no need EU, euro-zone, live with happiness...

[Hoca]

yeah yeah....come and get them http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/quarrel/m1328.gif

Be careful what you ask for xD

[Linet]

I am not asking anything :eyes....i just say...you cant have them :no000000:

[adsız]

Kurds used to live in today's Iran as not an ethnic group but a social .They have nothing to do with the region they migrated in time to live.
What The British say is worth to listen to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cD49rfFpQc

[Incal]

You should give a part of your country to the Kurds then :)

You didn't spill blood for your country any way. It was just handed to you. So you don't understand the value.

LOL and you had?

[Linet]

To be sure my answer is valid, i checked again our ancient texts :old about the Kurds http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/quarrel/m1314.gif, since many of our writters have spoken about them. As it seems the Karduheian mountains were right before the Armenian lands :eusa_eh:. Which means....Eastern Turkey but also parts of other countries . Yet there might be more sources i am unware about... :icon_ask:

[ChildOfTheJin]

To be sure my answer is valid, i checked again our ancient texts :old about the Kurds http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/quarrel/m1314.gif, since many of our writters have spoken about them. As it seems the Karduheian mountains were right before the Armenian lands :eusa_eh:. Which means....Eastern Turkey but also parts of other countries . Yet there might be more sources i am unware about... :icon_ask:

Yes, we have been mentioned by Greeks to be a people preferring mountainous areas and culturally, a very-war like people, which we can see is true in todays Kurds too.

[iNird]

No country willingly gives up land, and if possible, no country would give special minority rights if possible. I think some basic rights should be allowed such as public schooling in Kurdish (if that is what the Kurds want.) But the turkish arrogance is strong and the borderline fascism in Turkey will probably not allow such a thing. Imagine you have some educated Turks on this forum that state things such as they refuse to pay for Kurdish schools. Who knows what the average thought of a Turk is towards Kurds...

[Hoca]

Yes, we have been mentioned by Greeks to be a people preferring mountainous areas and culturally, a very-war like people, which we can see is true in todays Kurds too.

Kurds never had a state in the history of man-kind. And in those ancient sources, Kurds are not mentioned.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Kurds never had a state in the history of man-kind. And in those ancient sources, Kurds are not mentioned.

Idiot. With this logic, Ottomans were not Turks because they didn't call themselves Turks. :picard1: People who called themselves Turks were nothing but farmers in small communities during the Ottoman empire.

[denz]

No, the talks is about expansion might be a federation including "Misak-i Milli" border...

Recent meeting of 'free Syria army' select their prime minister Gassan Hitto who is Kurt and citizen of USA, can be considered first step of middle East federation including ex Ottoman pact and borders...

[denz]

Ghassan Hitto (Arabic: غسان هيتو‎; born 1963) is the Prime Minister of an interim government established by the Syrian opposition National Coalition.[1] Born in Damascus into a Kurdish family, he left Syria to the U.S. in 1980, became a naturalized American citizen and worked as an information technology executive and lived in Texas until recently. In late 2012, he relocated in Turkey[2] He was elected prime minister on 18 March 2013 by a narrow margin over former Syrian Arab Republic agricultural minister Assad Mustafa.[3]

[Hoca]

Idiot. With this logic, Ottomans were not Turks because they didn't call themselves Turks. :picard1: People who called themselves Turks were nothing but farmers in small communities during the Ottoman empire.

Turkish history is continuous, you can't say that about other people in the region. You are wrong that Ottomans didn't call themselves Turks. They were Ottoman Turks, spoke Turkish language and had Turkish culture. Turkic peoples have cultural,linguistic and genetic ties from the Balkan to the Altay mountains. But you Kurds, Kurds that live in Syria, Turkey and Iraq can't even understand each other, although you guys live relatively close to each other. I'm not saying Kurds have no history. You have, but you never had a state and your history doesn't reach antiquity.

[Linet]

In ancient texts, there is a mountain warrior nation called Karduhs. They did not obey to the Persian king and were living up to their mountains which happen to be the very same mountains Kurds live today.
So either Kurds are Karduhs or aliens brought them to the very same area, teached them the very same habbits and told them to have the name of the previous inhabitants.... :rolleyes:

[Partizan]

Nope. Solution is...

1.st, solving it militarily(like Sri Lanka did recently)
2.nd, opening there schools, doing land reform, re-opening Inspectorates-General (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspectorates-General_(Turkey)) and gaining those people into Turkish society.

About "Kardu" people, Kardu sounds more like KARLUK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluks) to me, plus their nomadic life style and using M shaped, long distance arrows seem similar to Turkic people rather Iranic ones.

[Partizan]

For Turkish users:


D. Ahsen Batur öyle bir çalışmaya imza attı ki, “Kürtler” hakkında bilinmeyenleri, müphemiyetleri, yanlış bilinenleri, tek tek aslî kaynaklarına inerek bulup çıkardı ve yerli yerine oturttu.
“Kürdoloji Yalanları” çıktı. Bu kitabı okumadan kimse konuşmasın!
Ahsen Batur, yıllar yılı topladığı notlarını harmanladı; yalan oklarının zihinlerimizi allak bullak ettiği şu zamanda “Kürdoloji Yalanları”nı ortaya çıkararak bütün bu okların uçlarını bir bir kırdı.
Ahsen Batur, “Kürdoloji Yalanları”nı niçin yazdığını şu sözleriyle açıklıyor:
“Siyasî Kürtçüler de tarihlerini istedikleri gibi yazarlar, istediklerini ata seçerler ve bunlar beni rahatsız etmez. Ama hayalî iddialara, mesnetsiz çıkışlara dayanarak ’Biz bu bölgenin aslî sakinleriyiz, sizler sonradan gelip vatanımızı işgal ettiniz; Salahaddin Eyyubî’nin ordusu saflarında on bin Kürt savaşçı olmasaydı, siz Anadolu’ya giremezdiniz, dolayısıyla Anadolu kapılarını size bizler açtık; biz de bu ülkenin kurtuluşu için savaştık ve şehitler verdik, bu yüzden biz de bu devletin kurucu unsuruyuz’demeye başlamışlarsa, artık o iddialar beni ilgilendiriyor demektir.”
D. Ahsen Batur, kitapta birçok konunun ilk defa işlendiğini belirtiyor.
“Aman yanlış anlaşılmasın” denilerek çok şımartılan siyasî Kürtçüler, tarihi, işlerine geldiği gibi eğip büküyorlar. Ahsen Batur, meydanın boş olmadığını gösteriyor:
“Siyasî Kürtçülerin yakın tarihle ilgili yazdıklarında fazla çarpıtma yoktur ve zaten yapamazlar da. Çünkü yakın tarihi ve özellikle de XIX. yüzyılın ortalarından şu ana kadar olan olayları çarpıtmaya kalkışırsanız, hemen arşiv belgeleriyle ve başka yazılı kaynaklarla yalanınız ortaya çıkarılır. Bugüne kadar yerli ve yabancı siyasî Kürtçüler tarafından yazılmış pek çok kitap okudum. Dikkatimi çeken nokta, söylenen yalanların genellikle uzak geçmişe ait olmasıydı. Yani öyle bir yalan söylüyorlar ki, ne inkârı mümkün, ne ispatı. Yani bir noktada ‘İnanmazsan git rahmetliye sor’ diyorlar. Ama kendileri sanki o rahmetliye sormuşlar veya binlerce yıl önce yaşamışlar gibi ballandıra ballandıra yalan söyleyebiliyorlar.”
Buna şu örneği veriyor:
“Karduk kelimesi. Minorsky, Nikitin ve Marr ve hatta başkaları bu kelimeyi Kartlı ile ilişkilendirerek Karduklarla Kartlileri yani Gürcüleri özdeşleştirdiler. Siyasi Kürtçülerse Xenofon’un anlattıklarına istinaden ve ikna edici bir delil göstermeden Kardukların Kürtlerin atalarından olduğunu ileri sürdüler. Ama kimse Karduk=Karluk yakınlığı ve hatta aynîliği üzerinde durmak istemedi. Hâlbuki bugün Kazak ve Kırgızlara giderseniz, onlar hiçbir zaman “Karluk” demezler ve aksine “Karduk” derler. Çünkü d-l değişimi onlarda ve Altaylara doğru gittikçe hâlâ canlı olarak muhafaza edilmektedir. Diğer yandan dağlı halklar ok-yay yerine mızrak ve sapan kullanırlar. Ayrıca Xenofon’da gözden kaçan bir detay var. Xenofon, Kardukların attıkları okları toplayıp tekrar atmak istediklerinde Karduk oklarının yayları için kısa kaldığını fark ediyorlar ve ayrıca kendi yaylarının menzili Karduklara yetişmiyor. Demek ki Karduklar M tipi uzun menzilli yaylar kullanıyorlardı ki, M tipi yayların kökeni Orta Asya’dır. Daha başka detaylar da var ve biz onları kitapta etraflıca anlattık. Ama siyasî Kürtçüler için bir halkın adında söz gelimi bir “K” harfinin bulunması dahi, onu sahiplenmek için yeterlidir.”

***
“Kürdoloji”nin de “Türkoloji”nin içinde olduğunu Ahsen Batur’un yukarıda verdiği örnek de gösteriyor. Ahsen Batur, eserinde, Türkçeden başka, vâkıf olduğu Arapça, Rusça, İngilizce, Farsça ve Fransızcadan birinci el kaynakları kullanmıştır. Pek çok ayrıntıyı öğrenmek için 470 sayfalık “Kürdoloji Yalanları”nı okumanız gerekiyor. (Selenge Yayınları, 0212 514 45 73; selenge@selenge.com.tr)

http://www.yg.yenicaggazetesi.com.tr/yazargoster.php?haber=19406

[ChildOfTheJin]

Turkish history is continuous, you can't say that about other people in the region. You are wrong that Ottomans didn't call themselves Turks.

Ottomans called themselves Ottomans.


They were Ottoman Turks, spoke Turkish language and had Turkish culture.

Ottoman Turks spoke a Turkic language that is much differerent to modern Turkish

Ottoman/Turkish

vâcib/zorunlu
müşkül/güçlük, zorluk
cenk/savaş

Languages evolve over time.


Turkic peoples have cultural,linguistic and genetic ties from the Balkan to the Altay mountains.

So?


But you Kurds, Kurds that live in Syria, Turkey and Iraq can't even understand each other, although you guys live relatively close to each other.

Sorani: Min Kurdim, Kuri Kurdistanim
Kurmanji: Ez Kurdim, Kuri Kurdistanim.

Sorani is a Central Kurmanji dialect.



I'm not saying Kurds have no history. You have, but you never had a state and your history doesn't reach antiquity.


"Genetic testing amongst randomly chosen Kurdish populations has began to shed light into the disparate origins of the Kurds. The results reveal a variety of connections amongst the Kurds, when assessing paternal and maternal lineages. Overall the Kurds share some genetic ties to other speakers of Iranian languages as well as with various peoples from the Caucasus such as the Armenians which suggests that the Kurds have ancient ethnic ties that connect them to both the early inhabitants of the Kurdistan area, such as the Hurrians."

[Hoca]

In ancient texts, there is a mountain warrior nation called Karduhs. They did not obey to the Persian king and were living up to their mountains which happen to be the very same mountains Kurds live today.
So either Kurds are Karduhs or aliens brought them to the very same area, teached them the very same habbits and told them to have the name of the previous inhabitants.... :rolleyes:

So, Turks are also Trojan right? They kicked Greeks out of Anatolia and revenged Anatolian soil...

[ChildOfTheJin]

About "Kardu" people, Kardu sounds more like KARLUK to me, plus their nomadic life style and using M shaped, long distance arrows seem similar to Turkic people rather Iranic ones.

Kurd/Kardu
Karluk/Kardu

How can you jump from "l" to "d" ?


The most ancient reference to the etymology of the Karluk name is recorded in the Chinese dynastic history Book of Tang, which names Karluks as "Ko-lo-lu" and traces the name to the word "Karlik" (Turkic "snow piles"). "Kar" means "snow", as in the name of the Kar Sea. N. Aristov noted the river Kerlyk, a tributary of the Charysh River, proposing that the tribal name originated from the toponym with a Turkic meaning of "wild millet".[2]

The reverse is equally possible; the toponyms were named after an ethnonym of the native people. Another version cites the homonym of the Karluk valley in Altai. The derivation of Karluk from Kara (Turkic "Great", "Northern", "black"[citation needed]) is considered to be philologically impossible, and incompatible with the well-documented Arabic form of the ethnonym "Halluh".

Kardu

Kar-Mountain
Du-Person

meaning Mountain person or Mountain dweller

Kurd

Kur-Mountain
d-Person

Meaning Mountain person or Mountain dweller.


plus their nomadic life style and using M shaped, long distance arrows seem similar to Turkic people rather Iranic ones.

Where did you get this from?

This is a reconstruction of a Persian archer during the time of Xerxes:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100601143655/deadliestwarrior/images/thumb/a/a2/Persian_2.jpg/300px-Persian_2.jpg

[Linet]

Check the arrow from the battle back to Greece.
Thats the map of 400BC, the Greek army :viking1: met the Karduhs at the area between the battle :fencing: till before Trapezus :rose:.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MA6IyHYrAeY/T_seKYuFQXI/AAAAAAAAGvk/ZX3Xdi0WxEA/s400/anabasis.jpg

[Linet]

So, Turks are also Trojan right? They kicked Greeks out of Anatolia and revenged Anatolian soil...

I love your logic :eyes ...you make me smile every time :rolleyes:
...Hocas logic :dizzy: ....bananas are fruits , apples are fruits so bananas are apples :thumbs

[Hoca]

I love your logic :eyes ...you make me smile every time :rolleyes:
...Hocas logic :dizzy: ....bananas are fruits , apples are fruits so bananas are apples :thumbs

No, I use your logic to show how absurd it is. Modern Greek history is only couple of hunderd of years old before 1821 most Greeks didn't even know who Alexander the Great was and you come here and use some vague word correlations to make up identities with the snap of your finger. You are here the joke. Not me.

[iNird]

Nope. Solution is...

1.st, solving it militarily(like Sri Lanka did recently)
2.nd, opening there schools, doing land reform, re-opening Inspectorates-General (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspectorates-General_(Turkey)) and gaining those people into Turkish society.

About "Kardu" people, Kardu sounds more like KARLUK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluks) to me, plus their nomadic life style and using M shaped, long distance arrows seem similar to Turkic people rather Iranic ones.

I understand you want to use force or Turkify these groups.

Are you against Bulgaria's policy of "Bulgarizing" the Turks in Bulgaria?

[Partizan]

Kurd/Kardu
Karluk/Kardu

How can you jump from "l" to "d" ?

Well, in Turkic languages l-d change is often, that is Turkic people in Altai still say "Karduk" instead of "Karluk".


Where did you get this from?

Xenophon also says that, they encountered that when they wanted to collect arrows thrown by Karduks and re-throw them, their range of bows were shorter than Karduks'. It shows that Karduks' use the longest bow range at that time, which M shaped one and originated in Central Asia.

[ChildOfTheJin]

^^ Edited my post btw, read extra bits too.

[Linet]

What was central asia doing at 400Bc? :eusa_eh:

[Partizan]

I understand you want to use force or Turkify these groups.

Are you against Bulgaria's policy of "Bulgarizing" the Turks in Bulgaria?

Yes, I am against. Because we have a treaty like Laussane which does not recognize Kurds as a minority unlike non-Muslim ones, therefore they are a priori Turks according to an international agreement.

However after Balkan War II, Bulgarians signed a treaty which guarantees rights of Turkish minority.

[iNird]

Yes, I am against. Because we have a treaty like Laussane which does not recognize Kurds as a minority unlike non-Muslim ones, therefore they are a priori Turks according to an international agreement.

However after Balkan War II, Bulgarians signed a treaty which guarantees rights of Turkish minority.

So you are all for Turkish minority rights abroad but not in your own country. Gotchya.

[Linet]

No, I use your logic to show how absurd it is. Modern Greek history is only couple of hunderd of years old before 1821 most Greeks didn't even know who Alexander the Great was and you come here and use some vague word correlations to make up identities with the snap of your finger. You are here the joke. Not me.

Oh my love :hug2: ...you are so cute when you talk nonsence :bitch: ...:eyes

I wont even care reply....http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/girls/m04108.gif

[ChildOfTheJin]

Yes, I am against. Because we have a treaty like Laussane which does not recognize Kurds as a minority unlike non-Muslim ones, therefore they are a priori Turks according to an international agreement.

However after Balkan War II, Bulgarians signed a treaty which guarantees rights of Turkish minority.

So the British empire still exists?

[Linet]

So you are all for Turkish minority rights abroad but not in your own country. Gotchya.

Yes they are pro :joy only when they violate any other nations rights http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/agressive/t0150.gif

[Partizan]

Kardu

Kar-Mountain
Du-Person

meaning Mountain person or Mountain dweller

Kurd

Kur-Mountain
d-Person

Meaning Mountain person or Mountain dweller.

Actually it might be explained with Turkic etymology.

Kar=Snow
Lı/Lu=Suffix implying "being from somewhere" or "having something".

Karlı can easily pronounced in "Kardu" in any Turkic language since l/d, ı/u changes are easy.

Also most mountains have snow in top, don't them? Karluk comes from same snow related etymology for example, a similar meaning.

Conclusion = Kardu were probably a proto-Turkic people who were related to Karluks.


Where did you get this from?

This is a reconstruction of a Persian archer during the time of Xerxes:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100601143655/deadliestwarrior/images/thumb/a/a2/Persian_2.jpg/300px-Persian_2.jpg

Just a reconstruction. Still, Persians probably took those bows from Steppic people northeastwards.


So you are all for Turkish minority rights abroad but not in your own country. Gotchya.

Well, I am just showing what international treaties allow :wink We won Independence War and Laussane is a sign of them, which is quite valid.


So the British empire still exists?

Nope but successor of it, the UK does.

[Loki]

Yes, I am against. Because we have a treaty like Laussane which does not recognize Kurds as a minority unlike non-Muslim ones, therefore they are a priori Turks according to an international agreement.

However after Balkan War II, Bulgarians signed a treaty which guarantees rights of Turkish minority.

Don't you think it's time that Turkey recognises them as a minority? What else are they?

[Hoca]

What was central asia doing at 400Bc? :eusa_eh:

Cradle of civilization didn't start in Greece but in the middle-east. Greece just happens to be near the middle-east and stole most of the things they invented.

[Partizan]

Don't you think it's time that Turkey recognises them as a minority? What else are they?

Well, as I said, if there would be a land reform and strong education policies, they would not even think about belonging in any other group than Turks. But a sharp military campaign against PKK is needed at first.

[Hoca]

Don't you think it's time that Turkey recognises them as a minority? What else are they?

Everybody is the same under Turkish constitution. Recognizing special rights is unfair for other minorities and it would mean fragmentation of the country in at least 5 parts. We will never allow that.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Actually it might be explained with Turkic etymology.

Kar=Snow
Lı/Lu=Suffix implying "being from somewhere" or "having something".

Karlı can easily pronounced in "Kardu" in any Turkic language since l/d, ı/u changes are easy.

Also most mountains have snow in top, don't them? Karluk comes from same snow related etymology for example, a similar meaning.

Conclusion = Kardu were probably a proto-Turkic people who were related to Karluks.

No because scholars already classified them (Karduchis) as proto-Kurdish. Lo siento :) The Karluks didn't migrate to the Near East, not even close. The etymology of Kurd and Kardu is exactly the same while the etymology of Karluk is much different.


Just a reconstruction. Still, Persians probably took those bows from Steppic people northeastwards.

And whos to say the Karduchis didn't adopt these bows from the Persians? The composite bow was also used by the Egyptian King Rames. Does that mean Egyptians are Turkic too?

And also you didn't show a source of the story you gave me, which still is just a story.


Nope but successor of it, the UK does.

So? You don't represent your father and the UK doesn't represent the British empire.

[Linet]

Cradle of civilization didn't start in Greece but in the middle-east. Greece just happens to be near the middle-east and stole most of the things they invented.

I am now sure that this is your way for flirting :chin:
You cant really believe what you say :no: ...you just want my attention :eyes ...how cute http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/girls/m04101.gif

[ChildOfTheJin]

Well, as I said, if there would be a land reform and strong education policies, they would not even think about belonging in any other group than Turks. But a sharp military campaign against PKK is needed at first.

Turkification, is that your solution to everything?

[ChildOfTheJin]

I am now sure that this is your way for flirting :chin:
You cant really believe what you say :no: ...you just want my attention :eyes ...how cute http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/girls/m04101.gif

You make him horny :thumb001:

[ChildOfTheJin]

Everybody is the same under Turkish constitution. Recognizing special rights is unfair for other minorities and it would mean fragmentation of the country in at least 5 parts. We will never allow that.

Who said anything about special rights? Kurds just want basic human rights, is that so much to ask?

[Partizan]

No because scholars already classified them (Karduchis) as proto-Kurdish. Lo siento :) The Karluks didn't migrate to the Near East, not even close. The etymology of Kurd and Kardu is exactly the same while the etymology of Karluk is much different.

Even etymology of Kurd is not sure, I've seen a Yezidi who claims that word of "Kurd" comes from Turkish.


And whos to say the Karduchis didn't adopt these bows from the Persians? The composite bow was also used by the Egyptian King Rames. Does that mean Egyptians are Turkic too?


Both Cheirisophus in the
front and Xenophon in the rear, were hard pressed
by the Karduchian slingers and bowmen ; the latter,
men of consummate skill, having bows three cubits
in length, and arrows of more than two cubits, so
strong that the Greeks when they took them could
dart them as javelins. These archers, amidst the
rugged ground and narrow paths, approached so
near and drew the bow with such surprising force,
resting one extremity of it on the ground, that seve-
ral Greek warriors were mortally wounded even
through both shield and corslet into the reins, and
through the brazen helmet into their heads : among

> Xen. Anab. iv. 3, 19-30.



Chap. LXX.] KARDUCH! AN ATTACKS. 131

them especially, two distinguished men, a Lacedae-
monian named Kleonymus and an Arcadian named
Basias^ The rear division, more roughly handled
than the rest, was obliged continually to halt to
repel the enemy, under all the difficulties of the
ground, which made it scarcely possible to act
against nimble mountaineers. On one occasion
however, a body of these latter were entrapped into
an ambush, driven back with loss, and (what was
still more fortunate) two of their number were made
prisoners.

http://www.archive.org/stream/historygreece15grotgoog/historygreece15grotgoog_djvu.txt

Here is source. Anyway, if mountaineer nations don't use bows and arrows in fights, they use lance and slingshot. Which alone proves that, Karduks cannot be direct ancestors of Kurds.


And also you didn't show a source of the story you gave me, which still is just a story.


So? You don't represent your father and the UK doesn't represent the British empire.

According to international law, the UK is predecessor of British Empire. And Turkey is formed according to Laussanne, so since Turkey is an UN member, all UN members have to recognize treaty of Laussanne, at least de facto.

[Partizan]

Turkification, is that your solution to everything?

Well, instead of existence of an imperialist-created fake ethnicity, it would be better if Kurds would melt in Turkish pot.

P.S:We are an unitary state and whole World de facto recognizes it, see Treaty of Laussanne.


Who said anything about special rights? Kurds just want basic human rights, is that so much to ask?

You can be teachers, lawyers, doctors, even prime minister(see Özal) here, what you want else? Perhaps you'd be relaxed if a Kurdish Pope would be elected instead of Argentine one :rofl:

[Hayalet]

Kurds just want basic human rights, is that so much to ask?
How don't Kurds have basic human rights? You know very little about Kurds in Turkey (e.g. you called a Kurdish crowd from Diyarbakır Turks), it's getting on my nerves.

[Linet]

What is sure....is what matters....:wink

They live in the same lands as same Karduhs :old and have the same name :wave: ....that beats whatever Turkish excuse :Pruegelknabe:

[Hoca]

Who said anything about special rights? Kurds just want basic human rights, is that so much to ask?

Kurds already have basic rights. They have Kurdish tv, can speak Kurdish in their homes and have their own festivals. More freedom can't be given. If we give special rights to Kurds for education, it would be unfair to Circasians, Laz and other minorities. Besides other minorities in Turkey don't want that. Kurds will learn to live together with others, otherwise you guys will be dumped to Iraq were you can build your great Kurdistan until you run out of oil and you will live in a shithole for the coming thousand years :)

[ChildOfTheJin]

Even etymology of Kurd is not sure, I've seen a Yezidi who claims that word of "Kurd" comes from Turkish.

Then s(he) must be uneducated.


aving bows three cubits
in length, and arrows of more than two cubits, so
strong that the Greeks when they took them could
dart them as javelins.

Just talks about the size of the bows and arrows, nothing else.


Anyway, if mountaineer nations don't use bows and arrows in fights, they use lance and slingshot. Which alone proves that, Karduks cannot be direct ancestors of Kurds.

In what way? lol


According to international law, the UK is predecessor of British Empire. And Turkey is formed according to Laussanne, so since Turkey is an UN member, all UN members have to recognize treaty of Laussanne, at least de facto.

Then there must be many members violating the treaty, nobody seems to care.

[Hoca]

What is sure....is what matters....:wink

They live in the same lands as same Karduhs :old and have the same name :wave: ....that beats whatever Turkish excuse :Pruegelknabe:

So Karduh means Kurd?

Then Trojan means Turk right?

So 1922 was just a revenge where we pushed Greeks in the Aegean when they tried a second invasion of Anatolia? Right?

Right?

[Linet]

Kurds already have basic rights. They have Kurdish tv, can speak Kurdish in their homes and have their own festivals. More freedom can't be given. If we give special rights to Kurds for education, it would be unfair to Circasians, Laz and other minorities. Besides other minorities in Turkey don't want that. Kurds will learn to live together with others, otherwise you guys will be dumped to Iraq were you can build your great Kurdistan until you run out of oil and you will live in a shithole for the coming thousand years :)

God, wow, you permit them talking Kurdish in their homes :shocked: ...thats the true spirit of human rights :thumbs ...no polishman in people houses :joy


But i agree, since they dont have rights, nobody else should have, so everyone is the same :grouphug:...true equality http://yoursmiles.org/ssmile/pozitive/s0801.gif ...your flawless logic pierces my heart every time http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/melodrama/t5007.gif

[ChildOfTheJin]

Well, instead of existence of an imperialist-created fake ethnicity, it would be better if Kurds would melt in Turkish pot.

P.S:We are an unitary state and whole World de facto recognizes it, see Treaty of Laussanne.

You Turks get pissed off easily, probably why no one, except your sister nations, likes you lot.


You can be teachers, lawyers, doctors, even prime minister(see Özal) here, what you want else? Perhaps you'd be relaxed if a Kurdish Pope would be elected instead of Argentine one

Yes but if we call ourselves Kurds then we are automatically terrorists.


How don't Kurds have basic human rights? You know very little about Kurds in Turkey (e.g. you called a Kurdish crowd from Diyarbakır Turks), it's getting on my nerves.

Well first, you changed the name of our cities, you jail anyone who speaks of a free Kurdistan and there are so many more wrong things. There is no free speach, this doesn't just go for Kurds, it goes for Turks too.


Kurds already have basic rights. They have Kurdish tv, can speak Kurdish in their homes and have their own festivals. More freedom can't be given. If we give special rights to Kurds for education, it would be unfair to Circasians, Laz and other minorities. Besides other minorities in Turkey don't want that. Kurds will learn to live together with others, otherwise you guys will be dumped to Iraq were you can build your great Kurdistan until you run out of oil and you will live in a shithole for the coming thousand years

Idiot, again we never asked to be a part of Turkey.

[ChildOfTheJin]

So Karduh means Kurd?

Then Trojan means Turk right?

So 1922 was just a revenge where we pushed Greeks in the Aegean when they tried a second invasion of Anatolia? Right?

Right?

Idiot, no because the etymology is completely different.

[Partizan]

Then s(he) must be uneducated.

He was the most educated Yezidi I've ever seen. Anyway still there is not a simple claim for etymology of Kurd:


The exact origins of the name "Kurd" are unclear.[25] G.S. Reynolds believes that the term Kurd is most likely related to the ancient term Qardu. The common root of Kurd and Qardu is first mentioned in a Sumerian tablet from the third millennium BC as the "land of Kar-da." Qardu is etymologically related to the Assyrian term Urartu corresponding to Ararat.[26] According to Asatrian, the most reasonable explanation of this ethnonym is its possible connections with the Cyrtii (Cyrtaei)[27]

Yet another theory[28] proposes that the etymology is rooted in the name Carduchi, mentioned by Xenophon as the tribe who opposed the retreat of the Ten Thousand through the mountains north of Mesopotamia in the 4th century BC. According to G. Asatrian, the word Kurd was first written in sources in the form of Kurt(kwrt-) in the Middle Persian treatise (Karnamak Ardashir Papakan and the Matadakan i Hazar Dastan), used to describe a social group or tribes that existed before the development of the modern ethnic nation.[29] The term was adopted by Arabic writers of the early Islamic era and gradually became associated with an amalgamation of Iranian and Iranicized nomadic tribes and groups in the region[30][31][32] Sherefxan Bidlisi states that there are four division of Kurds: Kurmanj, Lur, Kalhor and Guran, each of which speak a different dialect or language variation. Of these, according to Ludwig Paul, only Kurmanji and possibly the Kalhuri correspond to the Kurdish language, while Luri and Gurani are linguistically distinct. Nonetheless, Ludwig writes that linguistics does not provide a definition for when a language becomes a dialect, and thus, non-linguistic factors contribute to the ethnic unity of some of the said groups, namely the Kurmanj, Kalhur, and Guran.[33]

Bold part seems the most legit one. Because so-called Kurds speak four distinctly different dialects and have no unity, even Izady(the most Kurdocentric scholar ever) admitted that Zaza and Goran are probably lately Kurdified.


Just talks about the size of the bows and arrows, nothing else.

Mountaineers can't use that long ones, due to geographic difficulties :wink


In what way? lol

abbr. geographic conditions.


Then there must be many members violating the treaty, nobody seems to care.

Fault of Turkish government, Turkish government has to make it sure, Laussanne does not accept separation of Kurds as a distinct ethnic group than Turks in any sense!

[Partizan]

You Turks get pissed off easily, probably why no one, except your sister nations, likes you lot.

I am just reminding an international treaty, what is it's relation to getting pissed off easily? :wink


Yes but if we call ourselves Kurds then we are automatically terrorists.

Lausanne, dear, Lausanne :)


Well first, you changed the name of our cities, you jail anyone who speaks of a free Kurdistan and there are so many more wrong things. There is no free speach, this doesn't just go for Kurds, it goes for Turks too.

Separation is not allowed in anywhere in the World. BTW now BDP deputies talk about it easily, today what is forbidden is being Turkish nationalist(you are talking to someone whom's friends were in police custody two weeks ago, just for organizing a protest against Kurdish fascists).


Idiot, again we never asked to be a part of Turkey.

So why when Seljuks came to Anatolia in 1071 we did not ruin a Kurdish kingdom but instead a Roman one?

[Hoca]

Linet, if you try to flirt with me, it is not working..

It is funny to watch Greek/Kurdish co-action :p I'm sure Kurds are just Greeks, right? When Turks came to Anatolia in 1071, They didn't fight against the Romans but against Greeks and Kurds. xD

[Xyresic]

Depends where, if it involves land belonging to the Republic of Turkey then no obviously not. If its north Iraq then quite possibly yes. That would obviously be between the Kurds and Arabs of Iraq though. Turkey and the Kurdish region of Iraq already have agreements, a sizeable amount of trade, Turkish goods and companies operate there and thats good for both sides.

Turkey should carry on with its current relations with Kurds. Hopefully it will be a lasting peace. These days Kurds wave around their flags and colours associated with their ethnic affiliation if they want to, Kurds speak Kurdish if they want to practically wherever they live in Turkey, they have their Kurdish language rallies, Kurdish TV, they can study Kurdish at some universities like Mardin Artuklu university (Syriacs can even study Syriac at that university if they want to).

I think things will be fine if Kurds are allowed to display aspects of their ethnic affliction if they so wish and if Kurds keep from violence.

Turkey is on the right track.

I think Turkey needs to do more to be more accepting towards the Alevis though. A significant portion of the population of Turkey is Alevi or has Alevi roots. Turkey should recognise Cemevis as a house of worship. Give Alevis some recognition.

[Linet]

Linet, if you try to flirt with me, it is not working..

It is funny to watch Greek/Kurdish co-action :p I'm sure Kurds are just Greeks, right? When Turks came to Anatolia in 1071, They didn't fight against the Romans but against Greeks and Kurds. xD

its not working? :blink: ...dont break my heart like that :cry2

Indeed, you were against Byzantine Greeks...:viking1:

[ChildOfTheJin]

Bold part seems the most legit one. Because so-called Kurds speak four distinctly different dialects and have no unity

Despite all being classified as North-western Iranian languages?

Plus Kurmanji, Sorani and Feili are all further classified as Kurmanji languages by scholars.

Kurmanji being Northern Kurmanji
Sorani being Central Kurmanji
And Feili (Or Kermanshahi) being Southern Kurmanji.


even Izady(the most Kurdocentric scholar ever) admitted that Zaza and Goran are probably lately Kurdified.


And he might well be right, whats your point?


Mountaineers can't use that long ones, due to geographic difficulties

So? The Karduchis were acknowledged by the Greeks to be in mountainous areas. Plus, how is it a disadvantage? It can be an advantage depending on the situation and a disadvantage depending on the situation.


Fault of Turkish government, Turkish government has to make it sure, Laussanne does not accept separation of Kurds as a distinct ethnic group than Turks in any sense!

Treaties have been violated many times. Whats so special about this one?


I am just reminding an international treaty, what is it's relation to getting pissed off easily?

This is weird to say on a forum but, your tone.


Lausanne, dear, Lausanne

So an article in Luasanne states:

"Anyone who calls themselves Kurd is a terrorist"

lol


Separation is not allowed in anywhere in the World. BTW now BDP deputies talk about it easily, today what is forbidden is being Turkish nationalist(you are talking to someone whom's friends were in police custody two weeks ago, just for organizing a protest against Kurdish fascists).

Separatism is illegal because the governments don't like, not because the people don't. Kurdish fascists? WTF?


So why when Seljuks came to Anatolia in 1071 we did not ruin a Kurdish kingdom but instead a Roman one?

Actually you did.

[Hoca]

its not working? :blink: ...dont break my heart like that :cry2

Indeed, you were against Byzantine Greeks...:viking1:

But some say Byzantines were just made up concept by the Germans. IMHO, only Roman empire existed.

[ChildOfTheJin]

But some say Byzantines were just made up concept by the Germans. IMHO, only Roman empire existed.

Byzantines felt more Greek than Roman, even though it started out as Roman.

[Linet]

But some say Byzantines were just made up concept by the Germans. IMHO, only Roman empire existed.

True, Byzantine Empire is rather a new name :chin:, the actual known name at that time was Empire of the Greeks :wink: ...Thanks for emphising it Hoca baby :thumbs

[legolasbozo]

No country willingly gives up land, and if possible, no country would give special minority rights if possible. I think some basic rights should be allowed such as public schooling in Kurdish (if that is what the Kurds want.) But the turkish arrogance is strong and the borderline fascism in Turkey will probably not allow such a thing. Imagine you have some educated Turks on this forum that state things such as they refuse to pay for Kurdish schools. God only knows what the average thought of a Turk is towards Kurds...

Turks in TA represent a nation? Or Albanians in TA represent Albanians? Kurds suffered much, nobody deny that. We are whinning about double standarts and discrimination but frankly, we did how turks been treated in Europe the same for Kurds. Maybe much more than that. But we suffered too. Turks in Germany terrorized their pain? Turks in Bulgary terrorized their pain? İ guess not. Bulgarian turks had been treated worse but they never legitimized terror. Today, Kurds are not discriminated by government. They have
much rights than Turks, they can educate in kurdish as a second language, there is faculties about kurdish etc.
Actually Turks are facing this double standarts to gain sympathy of Kurdis seperatist. Atatürk's trace trying to erase by government, official celebrations forbidden by government etc. Everything has changed vice versa. İ think kurds suffered because of huge population in turkey. İ mean is there any restriction to Albanians? Bosniaks? Circessians? Anyway Erdoğan make a concession to terminate Pkk, and it seem succeded, for now. There were some secret negotiations and it was lasted, 2 days before, at the Nevruz celebrations in Diyarbakir, Abdullah Ocalan declared a peace and ordered Pkk militas to out of border. Eventually Tayyip lost nationalist-conservative voters sympathy, but israel apologized so this illusion would impress people though. He is lunatic, trying to new ottoman empire. İ think he is planning to add north kurdistan to Turkish soil. Thus he can benefit their soil, also kurds want that because they want to be a part of Turkey. Partly European, social, politic, sport, industrial, social standart light year beyond middle east. But i afraid that would be concluded with lost of our south east territory, a new Kurdistan.

Meanwhile in Turkey... Turkish flags are banning, but pkk flamas and Apo posters allowed by government..
http://c1303.hizliresim.com/17/r/lct00.jpg

[Partizan]

Despite all being classified as North-western Iranian languages?

Plus Kurmanji, Sorani and Feili are all further classified as Kurmanji languages by scholars.

Kurmanji being Northern Kurmanji
Sorani being Central Kurmanji
And Feili (Or Kermanshahi) being Southern Kurmanji.



And he might well be right, whats your point?


The language spoken by the Zaza and Gurani are so closely related to each other, but so different from Kurmanji and Sorani that they are placed in different language groups. Even the Kurdish scholar Izady concludes that these two language groups are not simply convenient ways of categorising different dialect of the same language, but ‘like French and Italian’ utterly distinct, quite separate languages, ‘not dialects of the same language’. Izady continues (Izady, 1992: 170):

Their variations are far too great by any standard linguistic criteria to warrant classification as dialect of the same language (see also Izady 2,2: 1988: 13- 24).

Sources:

Izady, Mehrdad R. (1988) ‘A Kurdish Lingua Franca?’ in Kurdish Times, Newyork, 2: 13 - 24.

Izady, Mehrdad R. (1992) The Kurds: A Concise Handbook,Washington, Crane Russak.


So? The Karduchis were acknowledged by the Greeks to be in mountainous areas. Plus, how is it a disadvantage? It can be an advantage depending on the situation and a disadvantage depending on the situation.

Probably Karduks were migrated from steppes to a mountainous area, hence why they have such steppic habits. Mountains are not wide areas like steppes.


Treaties have been violated many times. Whats so special about this one?

It is Manifest of Modern Turkey, the prove of Turkish State's existence. So an attack to it is an attack to nation's existence.


This is weird to say on a forum but, your tone.

?


So an article in Luasanne states:

"Anyone who calls themselves Kurd is a terrorist"

lol

Nope, Turkey has no minorities except non-Muslim ones according to Laussane, so acting like if Kurds are not simply Turkish people but something other is violating the treaty.


Separatism is illegal because the governments don't like, not because the people don't.

And it is not only case of Turkey.


Kurdish fascists? WTF?

abbr. Molotov throwers, terrorists, anti-Turk racists etc.


Actually you did.

:picard1:

[ChildOfTheJin]

Sources:

Izady, Mehrdad R. (1988) ‘A Kurdish Lingua Franca?’ in Kurdish Times, Newyork, 2: 13 - 24.

Izady, Mehrdad R. (1992) The Kurds: A Concise Handbook,Washington, Crane Russak.

Lol, I will not repeat this anymore, THEY ARE ALL CLASSIFIED AS NORTH-WESTERN IRANIAN LANGUAGES


Probably Karduks were migrated from steppes to a mountainous area, hence why they have such steppic habits. Mountains are not wide areas like steppes.

No, why would they choose to migrate to mountainous areas then?


It is Manifest of Modern Turkey, the prove of Turkish State's existence. So an attack to it is an attack to nation's existence.

Yes, which would also mean that Kurdistan region (KRG) is illegal to exist. But who cares? No one gives a shit.


?

?


Nope, Turkey has no minorities except non-Muslim ones according to Laussane, so acting like if Kurds are not simply Turkish people but something other is violating the treaty.

More reason why the treaty is stupid.


abbr. Molotov throwers, terrorists, anti-Turk racists etc.

The fault of your policies. Ever heard of DHKP? The Turkish version of PKK that also targets Turkish policies and the Turkish government.


:picard1:

:picard1:

[Partizan]

Lol, I will not repeat this anymore, THEY ARE ALL CLASSIFIED AS NORTH-WESTERN IRANIAN LANGUAGES

So, why you and Demhat(A half-Kurmanch half-Zaza) don't speak in "Kurdish" between each other? Or I've saw alanr and Demhat messaging via their profiles but not in "Kurdish", why? :laugh:


No, why would they choose to migrate to mountainous areas then?

Evidences show that they are a steppic nation at first, though.


Yes, which would also mean that Kurdistan region (KRG) is illegal to exist. But who cares? No one gives a shit.

Nope, it is about minorities inside of Turkey.


?

My tone?


More reason why the treaty is stupid.

Go get angry to your British masters, they have should not promise you "Kurdistan" in the Sevres scrap which Turkish nation ripped off.


The fault of your policies. Ever heard of DHKP? The Turkish version of PKK that also targets Turkish policies and the Turkish government.

It is not fault of Turkish policies, Kurds are just so eager for being puppets of imperialism and destabilizing Turkey.

DHKP-C, I know it but it is not Turkish version of PKK. They are in favor of a Communist revolution with armed way, PKK is in favor of separation of Turkey. BTW, I know from my father and many other Turkish leftists(exclude left-wing Nationalists like me, since I am not Marxist), are not in favor of armed revolution...


:picard1:

Well, facepalm is for claiming if Seljuks conquered a "Kurdish Kingdom" in 1071:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/Byzantium_vs_Seljuk_c_1071.PNG

There were Eastern Romans against us, no Kurds.

[ChildOfTheJin]

So, why you and Demhat(A half-Kurmanch half-Zaza) don't speak in "Kurdish" between each other? Or I've saw alanr and Demhat messaging via their profiles but not in "Kurdish", why?

I dunno, ask them. But I was able to communicate with that Zaza guy (forgot his name) while he was speaking Zaza and I was speaking Sorani on Anthroscape.

If you notice, I don't speak Kurdish, Dutch or Spanish often and I only speak it some times. I mainly use English to communicate with people and Kurdish (sometimes Spanish) to my parents.


Evidences show that they are a steppic nation at first, though.

Such as?


Nope, it is about minorities inside of Turkey.

If Kurds are illegal in Turkey then why not in Iraq?


My tone?

The Turkish tone, majority of Turkish members get angry very easily. You remember Pecheneg right?


Go get angry to your British masters, they have should not promise you "Kurdistan" in the Sevres scrap which Turkish nation ripped off.

Masters? Please...

Sevres would have been perfect with only a few adjustments.


It is not fault of Turkish policies, Kurds are just so eager for being puppets of imperialism and destabilizing Turkey.

Actually it is the fault of Turkish policies, remember the time when we were called "Mountain Turks"? Yeah, definetely Turkish policies.


DHKP-C, I know it but it is not Turkish version of PKK. They are in favor of a Communist revolution with armed way, PKK is in favor of separation of Turkey. BTW, I know from my father and many other Turkish leftists(exclude left-wing Nationalists like me, since I am not Marxist), are not in favor of armed revolution...

Your father was Far left or just left?


Well, facepalm is for claiming if Seljuks conquered a "Kurdish Kingdom" in 1071:

Descendants of the Seljuks I mean.

[Incal]

Yes, I am against. Because we have a treaty like Laussane which does not recognize Kurds as a minority unlike non-Muslim ones, therefore they are a priori Turks according to an international agreement.

However after Balkan War II, Bulgarians signed a treaty which guarantees rights of Turkish minority.

So it's all about a signed paper? So if back in the day an agreement saying Turks living in the Balkans should be cured with fire had been signed... Then all cool?

[Partizan]

I dunno, ask them. But I was able to communicate with that Zaza guy (forgot his name) while he was speaking Zaza and I was speaking Sorani on Anthroscape.

If you notice, I don't speak Kurdish, Dutch or Spanish often and I only speak it some times. I mainly use English to communicate with people and Kurdish (sometimes Spanish) to my parents.

Well, again I don't remember Demhat and alanr repeatedly talking Kurdish, they talk Kurdish at start but later switch to English, probably because of that they have no common language. :wink


Such as?

Nomadic lifestyle, arrow and bow ranges, name's similarity to Turkic Karluk tribe etc.


If Kurds are illegal in Turkey then why not in Iraq?

Laussanne is about Turkey, perhaps that is why?


The Turkish tone, majority of Turkish members get angry very easily. You remember Pecheneg right?

You used to insult easily as well and you called Tuan Belanda as a Turk for disagreeing with you despite everybody knew that he is the purest Dutch(or maybe even purest-Western European) in forum :rofl:


Masters? Please...

Who promised you free Kurdistan? Who supported Koçgiri, Milli Aşiret, Sheikh Said rebellions?


Sevres would have been perfect with only a few adjustments.

:picard1:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png

Distributing a Turkish/Muslim populated land between Greeks, Italians, French and Armenians :picard1:?!?


Actually it is the fault of Turkish policies, remember the time when we were called "Mountain Turks"? Yeah, definetely Turkish policies.

"They called you as Mountain Turks so that we should go armed and kill Turkish civilians."

Perfect logic.


Your father was Far left or just left?

Far left, however does not support armed resistance unlike in his youth. Actually when he was younger, he along with other Maoists and "Hoxhaists", used to support armed resistance but after 1980's he became a rather Democratic Socialist and even left Maoism, now a straight up Marxists(reads both Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Luxembourg but stays as an unaligned socialist).


Descendants of the Seljuks I mean.

Again I ask, which Kurds we encountered in 1071? We fought against Eastern Romans and there were no Kurds when we came here. Even Izady admitted it but he claims Kurds were exiled in Anatolia in Roman Period :picard1: :lol:


So it's all about a signed paper? So if back in the day an agreement saying Turks living in the Balkans should be cured with fire had been signed... Then all cool?

First of all, I should not even reply a biased triracial who jumps into everything anti-Turkish for the sake of gaining some white points. However there is a definitely wrong logic, since Laussanne is the manifest of Turkey, recognizing it means recognizing existence of Turkish state. Its violation should never be tolerated by Turkish state, we won it with our War of Independence.

[iNird]

So Macedonia and Kosovo never signed the treaty. If their constitutions were amended and disallowed Turkish minority rights, you would be fine with it? Sure :eyerolls:

You don't want minorities in your countries....that's fine I'm not a minority in your country so it really doesn't effect me. But you Turks are cheerleaders for Turkish minority rights abroad.....

[ariel]

hounestly, the area who called "iraqi kurdistan" are actually assyrian land....

[Comte Arnau]

Countries with large ethnicities other than the prevailing one would be better indeed without those ethnic tensions. But people don't want to 'lose' territory because one always wants to feel that his cock is big.

[Incal]

You don't want minorities in your countries....that's fine I'm not a minority in your country so it really doesn't effect me. But you Turks are cheerleaders for Turkish minority rights abroad.....

Exactly. That's turkish hypocrisy and double standards for you. When it comes to Turkey they want to turkify everyone but when abroad matters suddenly (and conveniently) do change:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/erdogan-urges-turks-not-to-assimilate-you-are-part-of-germany-but-also-part-of-our-great-turkey-a-748070.html

[Partizan]

So Macedonia and Kosovo never signed the treaty. If their constitutions were amended and disallowed Turkish minority rights, you would be fine with it? Sure :eyerolls:

Actually Kosovo started with five languages since start, so their constitution is different than Turkish one. But Turkey's resurrection in 1919-1923 was based on idea of nation state. I don't know so much about Macedonia though.


You don't want minorities in your countries....that's fine I'm not a minority in your country so it really doesn't effect me. But you Turks are cheerleaders for Turkish minority rights abroad.....

I'm talking in a legal basis. Also there are some historical facts in it, like Kurds having no history and creating no state, having no qualifications for being a nation etc. etc. etc.


Exactly. That's turkish hypocrisy and double standards for you. When it comes to Turkey they want to turkify everyone but when abroad matters suddenly (and conveniently) do change:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/erdogan-urges-turks-not-to-assimilate-you-are-part-of-germany-but-also-part-of-our-great-turkey-a-748070.html

:picard1: Triracial please, go and stay in your continent and don't talk about somewhere you have never set your step in.

Who said I am an "Erdoğanist"? Actually Germany accepted those workers so they should not whine about them but since I am frustrated with that those Turks don't politically form lobbies in order to serve Turkey, they should back to here. A win-win case for both Turkey and Germany.

[Hayalet]

Since Republic of Turkey is continuation of the Ottoman Empire, Turkish nationality in the new republic is continuation of the status of Muslims in the imperial era on legal basis. The reason why Arabs, Circassians, Kurds, Laz etc. weren't recognized as minorities next to Armenians, Greeks and Jews wasn't that Turks wanted to Turkify them, it's because nobody (including those ethnic groups themselves) saw them as minorities in the same sense.

[Loki]

How can I be Turkified? It sounds appealing :)

[ChildOfTheJin]

Well, again I don't remember Demhat and alanr repeatedly talking Kurdish, they talk Kurdish at start but later switch to English, probably because of that they have no common language.

Whatever...


Nomadic lifestyle, arrow and bow ranges, name's similarity to Turkic Karluk tribe etc.

Nomadic lifestyle? You're describing both our ancestors.

Arrow and Bow ranges? Still not convinced.

Karluk tribe? Sounds similar, different etymology while Kardu has the same etymology as Kurd.


Laussanne is about Turkey, perhaps that is why?

So you're saying that official papers rule over everything else? Aha, I am a Dutch muslim then. :picard1:


You used to insult easily as well and you called Tuan Belanda as a Turk for disagreeing with you despite everybody knew that he is the purest Dutch(or maybe even purest-Western European) in forum

Do you stalk me or something? I forgot about that and I had my own reasons. I only insulted once I was insulted, ever heard of "an eye for an eye" ?


Who promised you free Kurdistan? Who supported Koçgiri, Milli Aşiret, Sheikh Said rebellions?

Who promised us? Well, the west basically.

Who supported us? No one


Distributing a Turkish/Muslim populated land between Greeks, Italians, French and Armenians ?!?

Thats why I said, a few adjustments, can't you read? :picard1:


"They called you as Mountain Turks so that we should go armed and kill Turkish civilians."

Perfect logic.


The Media says something so it must be true.

Great logic :picard1:


Far left, however does not support armed resistance unlike in his youth. Actually when he was younger, he along with other Maoists and "Hoxhaists", used to support armed resistance but after 1980's he became a rather Democratic Socialist and even left Maoism, now a straight up Marxists(reads both Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Luxembourg but stays as an unaligned socialist).

I like your father :)


Again I ask, which Kurds we encountered in 1071? We fought against Eastern Romans and there were no Kurds when we came here. Even Izady admitted it but he claims Kurds were exiled in Anatolia in Roman Period

The Rawadiya tribe who lived in Dvin (Ancient city in what is now Armenia) were attacked by the Seljuks. That is also when Saladins Paternal ancestors migrated to Tikrit, they moved because of this attack.

[ChildOfTheJin]

hounestly, the area who called "iraqi kurdistan" are actually assyrian land....

What cities like Arbil, founded by the Hurrians, are Assyrian land? Please... I am up for an Assyrian state but Assyrians aren't a majority anywhere in the world.

[ariel]

What cities like Arbil, founded by the Hurrians, are Assyrian land? Please... I am up for an Assyrian state but Assyrians aren't a majority anywhere in the world.

hurrian nation not exist anymore....and the assyrians should get their own state...

[Partizan]

Nomadic lifestyle? You're describing both our ancestors.

Well actually Kurdish pastoral nomadicism is different than rather warrior-styled Turkic nomadicism however Kardus seem to be more "Steppic" guys, like Turkic people.


Arrow and Bow ranges? Still not convinced.

You don't have to be :eyes


Karluk tribe? Sounds similar, different etymology while Kardu has the same etymology as Kurd.

Etymology of Kurd is still not something sure.


So you're saying that official papers rule over everything else? Aha, I am a Dutch muslim then. :picard1:

Not only official papers despite they play a big role. The Netherlands has a multi-culti structure unlike unitary TR.


Do you stalk me or something? I forgot about that and I had my own reasons. I only insulted once I was insulted, ever heard of "an eye for an eye" ?

Well, I can show your earlier posts where you used to insult every Turk regularly :tongue


Who promised us? Well, the west basically.

Who supported us? No one

Where Sheikh Said got his weapons from? Santa Claus?


Thats why I said, a few adjustments, can't you read? :picard1:

Not "a few" honestly, giving 2/3 of modern Turkey to unrelated people... Bah...


The Media says something so it must be true.

Great logic :picard1:

Sorry, I know how Serap Eser's father cries in her grave, who I saw with my eyes. Not media only. Actually Turkish media represents Kurds as peace doves nowadays.


The Rawadiya tribe who lived in Dvin (Ancient city in what is now Armenia) were attacked by the Seljuks. That is also when Saladins Paternal ancestors migrated to Tikrit, they moved because of this attack.

:bored:

Rawadiya is a Kurdish speaking tribe today but based on Saladin's family names etc. they were more like Turkic. Some Turkomans were Kurdified, e.g. Karakeçili.

[ChildOfTheJin]

hurrian nation not exist anymore....and the assyrians should get their own state...

Their descendants do, the Kurds and Armenians. Tell me, where will the Assyrian state be? They are not a majority in any city in the world.


Well actually Kurdish pastoral nomadicism is different than rather warrior-styled Turkic nomadicism however Kardus seem to be more "Steppic" guys, like Turkic people.

Tell me, what is not 'warrior style' or 'military style' like the Greeks described us, about this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sty_gZYi4Mk


You don't have to be

Convince me.

I'll take the Scots and the English as an example. The 'longbow' which is of English origin, is quite long as you see in the name. It was used to suppress rebellions in the mountains of Scotland and it was succesful. Where is the disadvantage?


Etymology of Kurd is still not something sure.

So what? Karluk and Karduchi has still completely different meanings.


The Karluks (also Qarluqs, Qarluks, Karluqs, Old Turkic: Old Turkic letter OQ.svg Old Turkic letter L1.svg Old Turkic letter R1.svg Old Turkic letter Q.svg, Qarluq,[1] Persian: خَلُّخ (Khallokh), Arabic قارلوق "Qarluq"

Old Turkic = Qarluq. pronouncing it already sounds very harsh. Karduchi is a very soft word.


"Kar" means "snow", as in the name of the Kar Sea.

Not mountains like you suggested.


Not only official papers despite they play a big role. The Netherlands has a multi-culti structure unlike unitary TR.

Still, if thats the case then I am 100% Dutch Muslim. I'm far from it.


Well, I can show your earlier posts where you used to insult every Turk regularly

Advise by Serok Ficus.


Where Sheikh Said got his weapons from? Santa Claus?

They were ex Hamidyan soldiers. Thats where they got it from.


Not "a few" honestly, giving 2/3 of modern Turkey to unrelated people... Bah...

I think you are reading the map wrong, most of Anatolia was going to be under Turkish control but with British, French and Italian influence like there was in Iraq. All of the proposed Kurdish territory were also going to have French or British influence.


Sorry, I know how Serap Eser's father cries in her grave, who I saw with my eyes. Not media only. Actually Turkish media represents Kurds as peace doves nowadays.

Sure...


Rawadiya is a Kurdish speaking tribe today but based on Saladin's family names etc. they were more like Turkic. Some Turkomans were Kurdified, e.g. Karakeçili.

Shirkuh is a Turkic name?

Never heard of Karaceili btw.

[GodAmongMen]

Maybe the minorities in the Netherlands should also have their ethnic states. Afterall, after couple of generations they will also become locals..

Not gonna happen

http://blog.balder.org/billeder-blog/Cartoon-Wilders-Finger-In-Dike.jpg